Elemental Languages - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shivafang Apr 08, 2015 9:48:48	I'm noticing a lot of players giving their characters Primoridial this season, for the same metagame reason that everyone took Draconic last season. However, flipping through the Princes of the Apocalypse book, it seems that no one actually speaks Primordial. All the elementals instead speak one of their elemental languages (Terran, Ignan, Aquan, Auran) Given that these elemental languages are not player legal from any source in AL, how does Primordial relate to these languages? Supplements in past versions of D&D said that the four elemental languages were 'dialects' of Primordial (like how if someone from Canada or the US were to go to Jamaica and not understand a word they speak even though Jamaicans speak English) however I see no such rule in 5th edition. It's kinda weird how Primorial is billed as the 'Language of the Elementals' when no elementals actually speak it (except maybe the ones in the Monster Manual, I haven't checked.)
#2 Ainulindalion Apr 08, 2015 9:54:09	For reference, none of the elementals in the Monster Manual speak 'Primordial'. They all speak the associated dialect. Also for reference, on page 123 of the Player's Handbook, the third paragraph under the Languages heading, Some of these languages are actually families of languages with many dialects. For example, the Primordial language include the Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran dialects, one for each of the four elemental planes. Creatures that speak different dialects of the same language can communicate with one another.
(Reply to #2) shivafang	Some of these languages are actually families of languages with many dialects. For example, the Primordial language include the Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran dialects, one for each of the four elemental planes. Creatures that speak different dialects of the same language can communicate with one another.
#4 BRJN Apr 08, 2015 13:44:33	shivafang wrote:
#5 abanathie Apr 08, 2015 14:52:36	BRJN wrote:
#6 shivafang Apr 08, 2015 15:40:14	abanathie wrote:
#7 BRJN Apr 09, 2015 13:28:32	abanathie wrote:
#8 abanathie Apr 09, 2015 15:53:31	BRJN wrote:
#9 QwertyAzerty Apr 10, 2015 4:35:08	shivafang wrote:
#10 SpedGuy Apr 11, 2015 18:51:23	Note that a few monsters do speak 'just primordeal' and not one of the elemental dialects. The Kraken and one of the Hags I think.
#11 abanathie Apr 11, 2015 19:43:55	Night hag.. I think...
#12 Avross Apr 17, 2015 8:27:09	On another note ... I was under the impression that things that specifically required DM permission weren't AL-legal. Should DMs be allowing PCs to take Primordial? Draconic made sense...kobolds speak it, so it's "common" enough. But as others have mentioned, there aren't much outside of elemental creatures which speak primordial, so it really feels like a blatant meta-game hack.
#13 Kalani Apr 17, 2015 8:43:39	ALL RULES in the players handbook are legal (with the exception of rolling HPs/stats, and rolling starting wealth). This includes all optional/variant rules in the PHB (this has been clarified numerous times since the start of season 1). No specific DM permission is required as the ALPG grants blanket permission in all cases, including (but not limited to). Variant Humans Feats Uncommon languages Customizing Backgrounds - with the exception that we cannot create new background features, and must choose one of the backgrounds from the PHB, HotDQ, or the Mulmaster document (this determines starting gear and lifestyle; all other aspects of the background are customizable). ALPG > Table DM
#14 Pauper Apr 17, 2015 9:03:41	In effect, the rule that says that all rules in the PH are allowed except for specific rules listed as exceptions (rolling ability scores, use of the Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil alignments, etc.) is being interpreted to mean that the campaign admins, in their role as 'setting DM' of the Organized Play campaign, have already approved such things, so the table DM needs to allow them. Personally, I tend toward a slightly different interpretation -- the admin staff has effectively made such things available for use in the AL campaign, but each table DM can still decide whether or not to allow them at her table. So, under my interpretation, a table DM can ask a character with an exotic language to replace that language with a standard language -- however, if a DM chooses to allow exotic languages, that DM should allow exotic languages for all PCs at her table. (Again, this is solely my interpretation, not an official one, but to my knowledge there has never been a blanket statement about all items listed as being usable 'with DM approval' as being required for AL -- if only because a good number of these things can't be blanket-approved, see below.) Even under my interpretation, though, there are some items listed in the PH as being 'usable with DM approval' that aren't able to be rescinded by a table DM: - playing as drow/dark elf race (ALPG says 'all races' from the PH are allowed) - variant human (explicitly allowed) - customizing backgrounds by replacing one listed trait/ideal/bond/flaw with another already in the PH/other AL source* - multiclassing (explicitly allowed) - feats (explicitly allowed) * - if a player creates a background feature from whole cloth, then a DM can require that the player replace that feature with one that has been published for use in AL, but the DM is not required to do so if she thinks the background feature is interesting and not abusive And, even if you go with the more restrictive interpretation, there are still plenty of things exclusively in the domain of the table DM: - determining whether specific pieces of gear can be worn in a particular beast shape when a PC Wild Shapes or changes shape in some other way (PH, p.67) [If the DM determines that a piece of gear cannot be worn, the player decides whether it merges into the new form or falls to the ground.] - deciding to make a percentile roll for Tides of Chaos or allowing the player to roll the d20 for Wild Magic Surge when adjudicating a Wild Sorcerer (PH, p.103) - allowing a character to use a non-standard ability on a skill check (such as a Constitution(Athletics) check rather than a Strength(Athletics) check when attempting to swim a long distance) (PH, p.175) - deciding whether a creature that was Hiding retains the benefit of Hiding when coming out of concealment/cover to approach an enemy (PH, p.177) - determining the initiative order between players and monsters that tie (PH, p.189) - determining if a suggestion is reasonable for the purpose of causing that spell to end prematurely (PH, p.279) It should be noted that this is not an exhaustive list of things in the PH that have 'with DM approval', 'with the DM's permission', or similar language. If the AL admins wanted to make a blanket statement about things usable 'with DM approval', they would need to specifiy exactly what the DM is approving in these and other parts of the PH text, which is why I believe such a statement has not been and will not be made. -- Pauper
#15 Kalani Apr 17, 2015 9:19:28	Pauper wrote:
(Reply to #15) Pauper	Kalani wrote:
#17 QwertyAzerty Apr 17, 2015 9:16:30	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #17) Pauper	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #15) Pauper	Kalani wrote:
#20 Kalani Apr 17, 2015 10:44:28	True... But personality traits, ideals, bonds, and flaws are allowed to be customized, or created from scratch. Background Features (eg. position of privilege) are different. You must choose a background feature from the ones in the PHB, or another official source (HotDQ Appendix A, or the Mulmaster Document). Clarification HotDQ (Appendix A) is only legal for Tyranny of Dragons characters. The Mulmaster backgrounds (and features) are only legal for Elemental Evil characters.
#21 Pauper Apr 17, 2015 10:36:45	Agreed -- a player cannot invent a Background Feature (the specific 'power' associated with each background such as Position of Privilege), but must use one that is published. But, as you note, a player can substitute the Background Feature for her character's chosen background with any other published Background Feature that is legal for that character's Storyline Season (Player's Handbook for all seasons, HotDQ Appendix A for Tyranny of Dragons, or the Mulmaster Document for Elemental Evil). Glad to see we're still on the same page! -- Pauper (Edit: I kinda like the sound of 'Mulmaster Document'.)
(Reply to #17) Coredump00	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#23 Pauper Apr 17, 2015 10:40:06	For the record, the next Sage Advice column is going to address the Crossbow Master feat. But it should be noted that JC has tweeted "a typical hand crossbow isn't an automatic weapon." If you are interpreting the Crossbow Master feat as enabling John Woo-style gun-fu with hand crossbows, you might want to brace yourself for an update to your interpretation. -- Pauper
(Reply to #23) Ainulindalion	Pauper wrote:
#25 BRJN Apr 18, 2015 15:29:35	abanathie wrote:
#26 BRJN Apr 18, 2015 15:36:15	Pauper wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

shivafang

Apr 08, 2015 9:48:48

I'm noticing a lot of players giving their characters Primoridial this season, for the same metagame reason that everyone took Draconic last season. However, flipping through the Princes of the Apocalypse book, it seems that no one actually speaks Primordial. All the elementals instead speak one of their elemental languages (Terran, Ignan, Aquan, Auran)

Given that these elemental languages are not player legal from any source in AL, how does Primordial relate to these languages? Supplements in past versions of D&D said that the four elemental languages were 'dialects' of Primordial (like how if someone from Canada or the US were to go to Jamaica and not understand a word they speak even though Jamaicans speak English) however I see no such rule in 5th edition.

It's kinda weird how Primorial is billed as the 'Language of the Elementals' when no elementals actually speak it (except maybe the ones in the Monster Manual, I haven't checked.)

Ainulindalion

Apr 08, 2015 9:54:09

For reference, none of the elementals in the Monster Manual speak 'Primordial'. They all speak the associated dialect.

Also for reference, on page 123 of the Player's Handbook, the third paragraph under the Languages heading,

Some of these languages are actually families of languages with many dialects. For example, the Primordial language include the Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran dialects, one for each of the four elemental planes. Creatures that speak different dialects of the same language can communicate with one another.

(Reply to #2)

shivafang

Some of these languages are actually families of languages with many dialects. For example, the Primordial language include the Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran dialects, one for each of the four elemental planes. Creatures that speak different dialects of the same language can communicate with one another.

BRJN

Apr 08, 2015 13:44:33

shivafang wrote:

abanathie

Apr 08, 2015 14:52:36

BRJN wrote:

shivafang

Apr 08, 2015 15:40:14

abanathie wrote:

BRJN

Apr 09, 2015 13:28:32

abanathie wrote:

abanathie

Apr 09, 2015 15:53:31

BRJN wrote:

QwertyAzerty

Apr 10, 2015 4:35:08

shivafang wrote:

#10

SpedGuy

Apr 11, 2015 18:51:23

Note that a few monsters do speak 'just primordeal' and not one of the elemental dialects. The Kraken and one of the Hags I think.

#11

abanathie

Apr 11, 2015 19:43:55

Night hag.. I think...

#12

Avross

Apr 17, 2015 8:27:09

On another note ... I was under the impression that things that specifically required DM permission weren't AL-legal. Should DMs be allowing PCs to take Primordial?

Draconic made sense...kobolds speak it, so it's "common" enough. But as others have mentioned, there aren't much outside of elemental creatures which speak primordial, so it really feels like a blatant meta-game hack.

#13

Kalani

Apr 17, 2015 8:43:39

ALL RULES in the players handbook are legal (with the exception of rolling HPs/stats, and rolling starting wealth).

This includes all optional/variant rules in the PHB (this has been clarified numerous times since the start of season 1). No specific DM permission is required as the ALPG grants blanket permission in all cases, including (but not limited to).

Variant Humans
Feats
Uncommon languages
Customizing Backgrounds - with the exception that we cannot create new background features, and must choose one of the backgrounds from the PHB, HotDQ, or the Mulmaster document (this determines starting gear and lifestyle; all other aspects of the background are customizable).

ALPG > Table DM

#14

Pauper

Apr 17, 2015 9:03:41

In effect, the rule that says that all rules in the PH are allowed except for specific rules listed as exceptions (rolling ability scores, use of the Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil alignments, etc.) is being interpreted to mean that the campaign admins, in their role as 'setting DM' of the Organized Play campaign, have already approved such things, so the table DM needs to allow them.

Personally, I tend toward a slightly different interpretation -- the admin staff has effectively made such things available for use in the AL campaign, but each table DM can still decide whether or not to allow them at her table. So, under my interpretation, a table DM can ask a character with an exotic language to replace that language with a standard language -- however, if a DM chooses to allow exotic languages, that DM should allow exotic languages for all PCs at her table. (Again, this is solely my interpretation, not an official one, but to my knowledge there has never been a blanket statement about all items listed as being usable 'with DM approval' as being required for AL -- if only because a good number of these things can't be blanket-approved, see below.)

Even under my interpretation, though, there are some items listed in the PH as being 'usable with DM approval' that aren't able to be rescinded by a table DM:

- playing as drow/dark elf race (ALPG says 'all races' from the PH are allowed)

- variant human (explicitly allowed)

- customizing backgrounds by replacing one listed trait/ideal/bond/flaw with another already in the PH/other AL source*

- multiclassing (explicitly allowed)

- feats (explicitly allowed)

* - if a player creates a background feature from whole cloth, then a DM can require that the player replace that feature with one that has been published for use in AL, but the DM is not required to do so if she thinks the background feature is interesting and not abusive

And, even if you go with the more restrictive interpretation, there are still plenty of things exclusively in the domain of the table DM:

- determining whether specific pieces of gear can be worn in a particular beast shape when a PC Wild Shapes or changes shape in some other way (PH, p.67) [If the DM determines that a piece of gear cannot be worn, the player decides whether it merges into the new form or falls to the ground.]

- deciding to make a percentile roll for Tides of Chaos or allowing the player to roll the d20 for Wild Magic Surge when adjudicating a Wild Sorcerer (PH, p.103)

- allowing a character to use a non-standard ability on a skill check (such as a Constitution(Athletics) check rather than a Strength(Athletics) check when attempting to swim a long distance) (PH, p.175)

- deciding whether a creature that was Hiding retains the benefit of Hiding when coming out of concealment/cover to approach an enemy (PH, p.177)

- determining the initiative order between players and monsters that tie (PH, p.189)

- determining if a suggestion is reasonable for the purpose of causing that spell to end prematurely (PH, p.279)

It should be noted that this is not an exhaustive list of things in the PH that have 'with DM approval', 'with the DM's permission', or similar language. If the AL admins wanted to make a blanket statement about things usable 'with DM approval', they would need to specifiy exactly what the DM is approving in these and other parts of the PH text, which is why I believe such a statement has not been and will not be made.

Pauper

#15

Kalani

Apr 17, 2015 9:19:28

Pauper wrote:

(Reply to #15)

Pauper

Kalani wrote:

#17

QwertyAzerty

Apr 17, 2015 9:16:30

Kalani wrote:

(Reply to #17)

Pauper

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #15)

Pauper

Kalani wrote:

#20

Kalani

Apr 17, 2015 10:44:28

True... But personality traits, ideals, bonds, and flaws are allowed to be customized, or created from scratch.

Background Features (eg. position of privilege) are different. You must choose a background feature from the ones in the PHB, or another official source (HotDQ Appendix A, or the Mulmaster Document).

Clarification

HotDQ (Appendix A) is only legal for Tyranny of Dragons characters.
The Mulmaster backgrounds (and features) are only legal for Elemental Evil characters.

#21

Pauper

Apr 17, 2015 10:36:45

Agreed -- a player cannot invent a Background Feature (the specific 'power' associated with each background such as Position of Privilege), but must use one that is published. But, as you note, a player can substitute the Background Feature for her character's chosen background with any other published Background Feature that is legal for that character's Storyline Season (Player's Handbook for all seasons, HotDQ Appendix A for Tyranny of Dragons, or the Mulmaster Document for Elemental Evil).

Glad to see we're still on the same page!

Pauper

(Edit: I kinda like the sound of 'Mulmaster Document'.)

(Reply to #17)

Coredump00

QwertyAzerty wrote:

#23

Pauper

Apr 17, 2015 10:40:06

For the record, the next Sage Advice column is going to address the Crossbow Master feat. But it should be noted that JC has tweeted "a typical hand crossbow isn't an automatic weapon."

If you are interpreting the Crossbow Master feat as enabling John Woo-style gun-fu with hand crossbows, you might want to brace yourself for an update to your interpretation.

Pauper

(Reply to #23)

Ainulindalion

Pauper wrote:

#25

BRJN

Apr 18, 2015 15:29:35

abanathie wrote:

#26

BRJN

Apr 18, 2015 15:36:15

Pauper wrote: