For two seasons now, we have had an ongoing debate regarding the Encounters program, and whether characters of different Tiers can adventure in the same party. Rational arguments on both sides of the fence have caused this debate to ebb and flow resulting in a stalemate.
As of today, one of the admins has finally weighed in on this debate (unintentionally), and has given the following response. For privacy reasons, I have redacted the identity of the questioner.
This should put the matter to rest for the foreseeable future. It appears I stand corrected, as I was of the belief that the mixing of tiers was strictly prohibited, even in Encounters.
With that being said: Roberts response comes with a major caveat. Robert sees no issue with characters 1-2 levels below the party adventuring together (L4s, and possibly L3s in a L5 party), however he makes it very clear that L2s (or lower) should be nowhere near a Tier 2 party.
In light of Roberts stance, I recommend the following guideline be adopted.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Regarding Characters of different Tiers in Encounters
Encounters is designed for characters of Level 1-4. Tier 2 characters should not participate in the Encounters portion of the adventure (Chapter 6 pre-adventure, Feathergale Spire, and Riverguard Keep).
Once the adventure transitions to the post-Encounters portion of the adventure, Tier 1 and 2 characters (and by extension Tier 2 and 3 characters) can adventure together with some caveats.
Level 3 Characters
- It is not recommended for L3 characters to join Tier 2 parties, but the DM may allow it if necessary.
- I would not allow L3 characters to adventure in dungeons/episodes intended for characters higher than L5.
Level 4 Characters
- Can adventure with a party of Tier-2 characters, with the provision that the APL (average party level) of all Tier 2 characters at the table is not greater than 6.
- I would not allow L4 characters to adventure in dungeons/episodes intended for characters higher than L6.
- It is strongly recommended for such characters to take the downtime catchup option if they can afford it (20 downtime days + Lifestyle expenses).
Level 5 Characters
- Should not join Tier 1 tables unless absolutely necessary. Players are instead encouraged to create a new 1st level character.
- If however, the APL of the party is 4, I would allow such a character at the table.
Level 6 Characters
- Should not join Tier 1 tables. Players should create a new 1st level character instead, even if the APL of the party is 4.
Level 10 Characters
- Can adventure with Tier 3 characters, with the provision that the APL of all Tier 3 characters at the table is not greater than 12.
- I would not allow L10 characters to adventure in dungeons/episodes intended for charaters higher than L12.
- It is strongly recommended for such characters to take the downtime catchup option if they can afford it (100 downtime days + Lifestyle expenses).
Level 11 Characters
- Are discouraged from joining Tier 2 tables.
- If the APL of the Tier 2 characters is 10, such characters should be allowed to join without hesitation.
- If the APL of the party is 8-9, Level 11 characters should only be allowed only in the event that the player does not have any Tier 2 characters.
- Level 11 characters should not be allowed at any table whose APL is 7 or below.
Level 12 Characters
- Should not join Tier 2 tables unless absolutely necessary.
- I would restrict such characters to tables whose APL is at least 9-10.
As I mentioned in the quoted Facebook thread (after Robert's post), my table on Wednesday had a Level 1 new player join up with a table of 1 lvl 6, 3 lvl 5, and 1 lvl 4 (I have no idea why he's still level 4, given catching up rules, maybe not enough DT). As the new level 1 character managed to survive, they received a little over 2000 XP, and since it was the end of an episode (we finished off a Keep), they'll be level 3, almost 4, next week. If we get an Extended Rest next week at the end of the night, they'll be level 4, while the majority of the table will still be level 5.
We don't, unfortunately, have any Tier 1 Expeditions scheduled locally in the next couple weeks (we've got some DDEX2-1 scheduled and some all day PotA sessions on Saturdays), or I would suggest that the player try to hit at least 1 DDEX with his new level 3/4 character to gain the additional DT days needed to perform a Catching Up.
But, yeah, I don't really see any reason why you couldn't have a lvl 1 or 2 with a party of lvl 5, as long as they are aware of the high chance of dying.
The only things in conflict here, as I see it, are "let's allow people who want to play the game to play the game" and "let's make DMs' lives easier when we can".
The biggest challenge in having an unusually low-level PC at the table *isn't* for the party or even that player; it's for the DM. It's hard to run a game where everyone has a good experience when one of your party members is both exceptionally vulnerable to instant-death *and* much less likely to make a major contribution in terms of game mechanics (the difference between a level 2 and a level 6 fighter is significant, but the difference between a level 2 and a level 6 wizard is crippling). So throwing PC level bands out the window really just makes life harder for the DM.
That said, when you stack that up against "let's allow people to play", I think inclusion in the game absolutely wins out. The Adventurers League is primarily a marketing tool to promote in-store play; none of its core objectives are served by sending players home over a rules technicality.
If your options include "You should take a seat at that other table, where they're playing an adventure more appropriate for your character level.", that seems great. But if there are no other tables and the only alternative is telling somebody they can't play tonight because of character level, well...welcome to the big leagues. Watch out for beholders.
CahPahkah wrote:
Many stores are limited to one or two tables, either due to space considerations and/or DM availability. As such, it isn't always an option to have an ideal mix of players at a table. I think Roberts stance on this issue takes this into account (as does my proposed guidelines). Ideally however, these guidelines should only be used if (and only if) it comes down to an issue of the player playing or having to sit out.
At my store however, I have 6 permanent tables each week, with up to 8 or 9 tables during peak attendance - so this will not be an issue at my store, as I have no less than 4 Tier 1 tables, and 2 Tier 2 tables each week (it used to be 3 and 3 but one of the Tier 2 tables finished their adventure and have now started playing PotA). As such, anyone coming to my store will be slotted at a table appropriate to their characters level.
`Honestly I think Roberts words are clear enough on their own. But the guidelines are certainly icing.
This is... huge. I'm honestly worried that it has been so casually presented.
There were so many debates about how to offer tables of Encounters at multiple APLs, so many many debates about accrueing XP at too fast a rate necessitating new PC development to play, so many debates about how to list things on the Store Locator...
Is he really saying, in essence, that the PCs develop at what level they will for Encounters and they can still play together as long as they're all within 4 levels of each other?
I'm... startled at how nonchalantely this is mentioned... The ripple effect on things is massive...
I think he's saying that DMs have some degree of judiciary licence to help players find a way to play.... Ideally, everyone will have a character of the same tier (this is the first approach). Failing that, the recommendation is to accomodate players within a narrow range. Outside that range, and the low-level character is simply too fragile to survive and would only detract from the enjoyment of the group.
Corey, nothing has changed. The Encounters/APs never had tiers assigned to them.
Kalani, I think you are vasty overthinking those guidelines. Its really much simpler..... "When running Encounters/AP modules, remember the game plays better with PCs of similar power level. Try and keep PCs grouped in the same tier, or at least similar levels. Allowing a large disparity can be bad for the game, the players, and the DM." IOW, you are trying to turn his advice into a set of rules. Lets just give the DMs advice and let them run their game.
And just to freak folks out.... Played in a Tier 2 adventure once that included a lvl3 and a lvl1 PC. Not only that, they got the full "max HP". So the Lvl 1 then took the 8K XP, spent 2700 to get to 4th, spent DT days to get to 5th, then added in the remaining 5300 so he is only 2200XP from 6th.
Yeah... I wanted to say something, but I was just a drop-in.... I also noticed that the girl next to me had 3 18's 2 16's and a 10.
Wow. This is incredibly heartening. It decreases the necessity to spend Downtime to "catch up" in Encounters. It decreases the necessity for APL shifting, and thus curtails table-splitting or table development for new APLs that have put smaller stores and organizers in such a nightmare bind... Now I, personally, don't have to tell my table of 7 players with a level range of 3-5 that some of their number can't play until the rest catch up...
I knew that PotA didn't have articulated APLs, but Adventurers League does. And I was under the impression those APLs were applicable to PotA--there have been MANY threads and posts debating various ramifications and permutations of this--2 seasons worth, in fact... For example, to hear that having some PCs reaching level 5 doesn't require the development of an entirely new table with a new DM and enough players to play that APL is, honestly, very big in my little world. Maybe I was just incredibly dense to have not put two and two together, but man, this changes things for me and my players and my store, and I suspect for many others. It's very good news.
It may not seem like a "change" from the status quo, but in the face of all the debates deriving from this paradigm, I would say it's something a lot of people have struggled with...
How did the L1 character manage to get 20 downtime from a single episode/adventure? You only get 10/adventure or episode
Sticky, Sticky, and Sticky.
Before good advice becomes part of the law, lets keep in mind that nothing like "within 4 levels" was mentioned as a rule. The operative part, from a rules perspective, of Robert's statement is simply:
D&D Expeditions games have a strict Tier restriction, but D&D Encounters do not
As far as I am aware this was always the case, and I have never ran differently. And while indeed it can be a lot of work for the DM to keep level 1's or 2's alive and entertained in a tier 2 game, it can also be fun to watch the higher levels PCs protect the low level one(s). And when it comes to roleplaying that level difference can be fairly irrelevant.
Point taken. But the simple idea of not having strict Tier restrictions in Encounters is still news to me, as the existence of all the endless debates dovetailing into that topic has implied otherwise. And to many others, I'm willing to bet...
You're right--he did not say "within 4 levels". I'm probably extrapolating more from what he said than I should. But regardless, just being able to have judicial leeway will indeed make my AL life easier, and that's not something I thought I had as a DM (based on precedent and the existence of said debates).
I think some people may be confusing what Robert is saying in that quote. Remember that anything run on a Wednesday night is now referred to as "Encounters". But the official Encounters program is the free portion of the published adventure that WotC makes available each Season to participating stores. This specific program is only for characters of levels 1-4 and is just as strict as Expeditions for level restriction. So no, a level 5 character cannot play in the free Encounters content, but tiers and levels can be mixed in anything else being run during Wednesday night Encounters that is not also an Expeditions scenario.
CoreyartustheSecond wrote:
http://dnd.wizards.com/playevents/encounters
"We’ll introduce the Elemental Evil storyline by adapting a portion (levels 1-4) of the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure for play."
This is the first sentence from the 3rd paragraph. It was worded the same way when the page referenced Hoard of the Dragon Queen.
The Wizards Play Network site for store owners and organizers lists the same specific level range for Encounters. I always thought the ALPG was this specific too, but it is not.
It would be nice if WotC would give the same exact info to everyone.
Coredump00, the second page of the Encounters PDF says, "This edition of the adventure is designed for 1st-through 4th-level characers..." and "Characters of 5th-level and above cannot play in this D&D Encounters edition of the adventure." It goes on to say on page 3, "A characters level is the only limitation for adventure play."
It goes on further to say, "This adventure is designed for three-to-seven 1st-4th level characters. Players that have characters outside that level range cannot participate in the adventure with other characters. Players with ineligible characters can make a new 1st-level character or use a pregenerated character." (Bold text theirs.)
In the AL Players Guide, on page 7, it says "Adventures for the D&D Adventurers League are broken into four tiers of play--first tier (levels 1-4), seond tier (levels 5-10), thierd tier (levels 11-16), and fourth tier (levels 17-20). Your character's level determines which tier of adventures you can play with that character. You cannot play adventures outside your tier."
And again, on page 10: "Players that have characters outside the adventure's level range cannot participate in the adventure with those characters."
So yes, it was written down. Explicitly. Time and time again they have stated that characters from different APLs cannot play together.
And here are some example links to the forum threads that contain debates that directly relate or result from the ramifications of this issue:
http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-adventurers-league/threads/4208091
http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-adventurers-league/threads/4206491
http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-adventurers-league/threads/4204631
You yourself asked a question about HotDQ and how to define the tiers for that particular adventure (If it was such common place knowledge that APLs aren't relevant for the printed mods, why did even you have to ask?):
http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-adventurers-league/threads/4192881
We all know that the PotA printed book does not have APLs articulated. But the post Robert was kindly responding to referred to Encounters. Now that the term "Encounters" can mean both the AL's PDF material itself AND anything played on Wednesday nights, it's unclear whether Robert is referring to PCs played as part of a Casual Play experience or through the Encounters program. If it's Casual Play, then the level restrictions are hazy as the printed book doesn't articulate them. But if it was not, and it was part of the Encounters program then the AL explicity says PCs from different Tiers cannot play together. And he's saying that now that PCs are moving out of the official PDF materials issued for AL, APL restrictions don't apply.
Which begs the question--why even play the Encounters PDF material at all if it's going to have level restrictions when the printed book does not? Why would a store complicate things by imposing level restrictions that would be irrelevant if some of them reach level 5 anyway?
Kalani wouldn't have even made the original post if it was a null issue. It has not "always been that way."
I give up. I'm never running the AL PDF version stuff again. It's not worth it. It's straight from the book for me now, and if there's some reason that being reported as Encounters vs. Casual Play is somehow significant, I don't care anymore. I put forth my best faith effort to make it work, but my potential players are more important than being able to say "My table is part of Encounters." I'm not robbing them of an opportunity to play if they want to because of simple logistic when some of them level out. If it is indeed my call as DM, then I'm going to make that call.
Hmmm.... We tend to run even the "Encounters" episodes from the book. I didn't realize the had added verbiage. So yes, the Encounters episodes are Tier 1. OTOH, the Enounters episodes are really short. The one from HotDQ may not get you past 3rd level. Most of the time the issue crops up, it was about lower level PC's running at later episodes. But okay... no level 5 in Encounters.
As for the threads you linked. Two of them had nothing to do with this issue. (one was about a thug store owner, one was about a player confused about the Expedition order)
Of the other two, there were many people making it clear that there was no rule written disallowing tier one and tier two PCs to adventure together. Yes, people were *claiming* it wasn't allowed, but there was never a rule presented. Similarly, it was often pointed out that no section of HotDQ nor PotA was designated as tier X adventure..... again, people were claiming they were, or creating some rationale for why they said it was.... but no one presented anything from AL that actually supported that stance. So yeah... I am sorry if you decided to follow that thinking without any AL rules saying it must work that way.
The reason I started that one thread, was *because* there was *not* anything saying there was a distinction, so I wanted to find out if I was missing something. Turns out I wasn't... just a number of people making claims that they could not support with the actual rules. I am not saying you were alone.... I am honestly sorry you came to that conclusion. But those rules have never existed (sans the few Encounters Episodes)
From what I can tell, the Encounters episodes are specifically simpified to make it an intro game. No Tier 2 PCs, XP level caps, given away for free, etc. If you run the same material 'out of the book', then there is no XP caps, there is no assigned Tier, and you don't get it for free. OTOH, I think it is a solidly bad idea to run any Tier 2 PCs in that material.... *especially* if there are any newer players involved. Level 5 is just a *lot* more powerful than level 1-2 (or even 3).
I'm not sure anymore, Coredump. I think it depends on the DM.
But one thing is for sure, I'm tired of trying to promote AL policy on one hand, and then being undermined on the other. I'm tired of justifying things to myself and my players, saying "This is how AL does it" but learning differently later. Of trying to read between the lines of AL policy and being told if I'd just paid attention I'd have realized it all along. I've read about too many DMs and stores jumping through too many hoops held by well-meaning but adamant organizers and good-intentioned posters only to see and hear examples of the exact opposite of everything they espouse with not so much as a "Meh, oh well," of consequence.
The PDF version of PotA is not a simplification in the ways you may think--all the pertinent combat encounters are intact, only a huge amount of flavor text and NPC material is ommitted. Some scenarios that aren't relevant to the first four levels of the Encounters material are ommitted, but none of the combat encounters.
The trade off for getting something for free is, in my opinion now, not worth dealing with XP caps, leveling-out restrictions, and the inevitable "adjustments" one has to make as the majority of players play through it and discover pitfalls (like everyone discovering, "Hey, there isn't enough XP here! Everyone has to run Wandering monster encounters in order to make the right level requirements for each section!!" ) during those first few weeks.
I'm done with Encounters. Casual Play or nothing as far as I'm concerned.
Thats reasonable, there isn't that big of a difference, so go with it.
But as with any situation regarding rules etc....my advice is always the same: to always read them for yourself. Well meaning and well intentioned folks are nice to have around.... but they are no substittue for the actual rules.
Yes there were well intentioned people saying "Tier one PCs *can never* adventure with Tier two PCs"... but when asked, could never present the actual rule that said that.
There were well intentioned people saying "of course HotDQ has tier restrictions", but again, could never present an actual AL rule to support that.
I understand your frustration, which is what led me to my 'always read the rules for myself' stance. Listen to folks, but then go and find the rules, or have them present them. Without trying to be harsh, you took part in one of those threads.... and people made claims, and when asked for an actual rule they could not provide one. You chose to believe their interpretation instead of the actual written rules. (Now, in fairness, it is possible their interpretation was the intention of the rules.... but still was not what was written.) When in doubt...believe the rules....
Hmm, Encounters has always been restricted but Casual Games were not.
Relevant FAQ 2.15:
Will we be able to play our existing tier two or three characters in the upcoming storyline season of D&D Encounters and if not, can we jump in to where Tier 2 (level 5+) begins and start play from there?
D&D Encounters is a weekly Wednesday play program, geared for a casual play audience with short sessions each week. It is always for characters levels one through four. As such higher level characters are not eligible to play in the D&D Encounters (level 1-4) games.
That being said, you can pick up the Princes of the Apocalypse hardcover adventure and play the higher level content with appropriate level characters as a casual D&D Adventurers League game, or wait until an Encounters table transitions into casual play at higher tiers and join it then.
Perhaps Robert forgot about this or interpreted Encounters to mean Casual Game.
Edit: Reading through Robert's response again, he only mentions allowing level 4 characters to play with level 5 characters. Seems a few might have just stretched that interpretation down to Encounters (1-4).
The terms do get mixed up quite often. You can report "Encounters" in the WER for all events played on Wednesday nights, but D&D Encounters (the free public pdf) is an entity of itself.
Ravix wrote:
I pretty much use the expected level -2 as the minimum character level for the parts of retail adventures intended for 5th, 6th, 11th, and 12th level characters. Right now, my Encounters tables have a minimum level of 3rd-4th, as we're finishing up the Tier 2 haunted keeps. Since I don't have the manpower to start another Tier 1 table, I'm currently referring all new players to come to the Expeditions night on Thursdays for the rest of the season, or if a new DM volunteers to start a Tier 1 table. I keep LMoP on hand just in case that extra DM ever materializes.
I have been organizing & running casual play with the hardcover books since the start of Adventure League. It just never made any sense to me to run the crippled/free version of the adventure when there was a great & glorious full epic available to play. If the enconters material was exclusive to the program I would have organized and run that but the hardcovers were much better.
Play the full adventures. You will have a great time. Your players will have a great time. Win for everyone.
I have been organizing & running casual play with the hardcover books since the start of Adventure League. It just never made any sense to me to run the crippled/free version of the adventure when there was a great & glorious full epic available to play. If the enconters material was exclusive to the program I would have organized and run that but the hardcovers were much better.
Play the full adventures. You will have a great time. Your players will have a great time. Win for everyone.
I have been organizing & running casual play with the hardcover books since the start of Adventure League. It just never made any sense to me to run the crippled/free version of the adventure when there was a great & glorious full epic available to play. If the enconters material was exclusive to the program I would have organized and run that but the hardcovers were much better.
Play the full adventures. You will have a great time. Your players will have a great time. Win for everyone.
Advice so nice he said it thrice!
I agree that playing straight from the book from jump street is ideal, but not all of my DMs have access to it at the start of the season. Having the free pdf helps by providing a window to run the game while waiting to get your book. Plus, the pdf has those useful blurbs about how many sessions each section should take to complete; having that helps a lot when it comes to scheduling and time management. I'd love to see more of those for the complete books to make the transition easier. One of the big concerns I have is not being able to finish PotA in time for the next season.
ZHDarkstar wrote:
At the very least, I'd like to get the haunted keeps finished. My table should be near completion of Sacred Stone by the end of tonight, leaving a good 4-6 weeks for the fire cult camp. After that, I'll probably run the Tier 2 Expeditions on Wednesdays until the start of the third season. That should sate their magic item thirst.
I really wish that there was enough time in the season to finish a book, instead of having to find a good stopping point to send the players off to finish the game at home...
Oh well, at least we should be expecting a new player companion and ALPG by the end of August. Hopefully all of the new player options can pass the sniff test and not end up in the banhouse like the aarakocra.
There's no way to finish the full story in one season.
2-hour Wednesdays four times a month is only about 24 sessions. There's no possible way you could fit all of either HotDQ or PotA into that.
The free "Encounters" pdf is the adventure that the Wednesday format is designed around. The idea being that you can finish it before the seasons end with plenty of time left to account for various problems that may delay play a week or two (due to IRL things).
Ravix wrote:
once out of the pdf, you are free to use longer sessions. Or on a different day. Or heck, just keep playing. We wanted to finish HotDQ so we ignored EE until we were done.
The session lengths are only a guideline. You can run expeditions in split 2hr sessions for example.
Also, there is no requirement to start the new encounters at the start of each season.
The start of season marks the point when the New ALPG becomes legal (and the old ALPG is retired), when new story origins become legal, when the new encounters document becomes legal etc.
You can continue running older adventures even on Wed. In fact, at start of season 2 that was recommended for the first week as the Encounters doc arrived 1 day prior to launch.
At my store, we started PotA on week 2 (2 tables), had 2 tables of RoT, 3 tables of HotDQ and 1 table of Expeditions being offered as our Encounters program.
The new FAQ update addresses this issue directly.
When playing the hardcover adventures (eg. Hoard of the Dragon Queen or Princes of the Apocalypse), can characters of different tiers adventure in the same party?
Yes. The Tier paradigm is in place for D&D Expeditions because each tier has a pretty large power difference than the previous or later tier. Since each D&D Expeditions adventure stands on its own it’s easy to make sure that characters fit within the tier structure. For the published hardcover adventures, however; it’s not quite as easy. When players and characters drop in and out of the game the characters will end up with different character levels and as the game advances some characters will start new. For example there may be a time when most characters in the group are 4th level and there may be another character who is 2nd level. When those 4th level characters advance to 5th and the 2nd level character is 3rd or 4th level they’re technically different tiers. It’s unfair to say that 3rd or 4th level character cannot play with the 5th level characters because of the tier paradigm.
A good rule to follow is that if a character is within 1 or 2 levels from the average party level (APL) they should have no trouble fitting into the group. If they’re further away from the APL there’s likely a chance (especially at low levels) that lower level characters will die easily.
Kalani wrote:
MerricB wrote:
Ravix wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote: