Expeditions are too long. It's very, very hard to get one finished in under four hours and in most instances, four hours is also a long time to devote to one session in an organised play environment. I'd prefer if they were either shorter, geared for three hours, or if they were divided into episodes that could be finished in one session each.
I consider myself a fairly quick DM. Not the quickest because I believe in trying to strike a balanced medium between RP, player choice, and railroading (and before anyone gets on the anti-railroading bandwagon, this is organised play which makes railroading basically mandatory). I try and plant the seeds in a way that allows players to move from one part to another of their own choice and volition as quickly as possible whilst trying not to seem like I'm forcing them in any one direction... even though that's exactly what I'm doing.
And yet I've found it pretty much impossible to finish some of the expeditions in under four hours. I'm hearing from a lot of other DM's much the same thing. Short of skipping RP and forcing players to rush through things, four hours is unreasonable for most of the expeditions modules.
Now, they're already fairly short and sweet in content so I'm not sure I'd like them to be shortened even more, however a problem arises when trying to split them between multiple sessions since some players can't make both sessions or worse, some players come in on the second half only to earn the entire expedition's worth of treasure and XP for half the effort. It seems counter to the aims of organised play that modules should be long enough that it forces this situation. Episodes seems to be the best "fix" to this problem.
If Episodes of each Expeditions module broke sessions up into 2-3 hour time allotments, players could be rewarded for the sessions they attend. They could also finish the other Episodes without being punished for missing the second session. As it stands now, I don't think you can technically replay a session if you left half-way through it and someone else ran it again (although I admit I'm unclear on that aspect).
I have to disagree. Depending on the day, my players get done in under three. I think there about the right length for some fights, some RP, and some exploration.
I'd have to disagree as well. Organized Play scenarios have been run in 4-hours slots for probably upwards of two decades at this point, and it's because it works. Four hours is more than enough time to get a typical scenario done, altho it does require a little more discipline on the part of both the DM and the players. If you're not paying attention, it is all too easy to get off track, to meander in conversation, etc., especially when the table is full of friends with inside jokes and amusing anecdotes. Players and judges alike need to keep in mind that Organized Play scenarios are NOT like a home campaign situation, and play accordingly.
Thank_Dog wrote:
I agree that scenarios for Expeditions should be 4 hours. Im not entirely convinced that the ones we are getting are able to be properly done in 4 hours. Shadows of the Moonsea is a case in point. It has enough content in it for nearly 5 hours of game time.
I actually dont mind the 2 hours encounters sessions (even If we normally go for 2.5). Its quite different than what Im used to but very enjoyable.
How many players do you have at the table?
In my experience, and I've run a LOT of Expeditions, sessions take approximately 45 minutes per player. A five-player table clocks in at about 3 hours and 45 minutes. With more than five, I've got to "cut stuff and keep moving" to get all the way through an adventure "before the store closes at 10:00." Three-four players take about 3 hours. Six players is always rushed, and seven players leaves no chance to get done. (Just because 7-player tables are legal doesn't mean that it is the best playing experience.)
Have one in five mods be a similar structure to DDEX1-1, but made up of 3 parts instead of 5 parts.
Mind_Flayer_Monk wrote:
Mind_Flayer_Monk wrote:
I will note that both due to replay and the fact that there are many different factions who want different things accomplished, the Expeditions adventures make an effort to build character investment and offer lots of different paths (e.g. Shadows from Tyranthrauxus' post). There is no right way to play them or necessity to hit every possible encounter or nugget of information. The adventures have MORE in them than you need for one go. That's a feature, not a bug. As DM, you may need to wrangle your players a bit if they run too far afield, and it looks like you won't be able to finish in the time you have. You should use the options we give you in an Expeditions adventure to craft the experience your group of players need/want for that playing of the adventure.
I will also echo that Expeditions adventures are more geared towards convention and gameday play than Encounters, and as such slots are traditionally 4 or 5 hours, so we aim for 4 hours, not 3. If you try to play them in 2 hr chunks at a store, its certainly possible but does take more effort to schedule it on the part of the DM.
I like to acknowledge that the adventures could be run in four hours, but can be comfortably run in 4.5 to 5. You're all there to have fun. Why rush? Just schedule accordingly.
If you must finish in a set time period, take a look at the elements at the table that slow things down. I have a Big Three.
1) Investigations. These are the bane of a timed event. Off the top of my head there are at least two out of the first six releases that start with a long investigation sequence. The first gives very little information to the players, forces interactions with deliberately unhelpful NPCs, and tucks away clues in really obscure places - unravelling that is not going to be a quick process. The second basically provides a roadmap of places to investigate and then railroads the party through the conclusion of the mod. That's a good fit for timed play. DMs need to read up and plan accordingly.
2) Tactical combat. It takes time to set up the board and track minis through a fight. The more combatants there are, the more time it takes. The more dynamic the battlefield, the more time it takes. I enjoy tactical combat, but I recognize that you're losing a lot of time to administrative overhead versus just picturing the scene in your head.
3) Individual initiative tracking. If you're spending 2-3 minutes at the start of each of the 3-4 encounters rolling initiative for each participant, settling ties, and tracking results, you can earn back around ten minutes overall by using the party initiative option (have an entire team go followed by the entire other team). If you know you're really going to be hurting for time, this is an easy (if potentially frustrating) way to earn some back.
In the interest of full disclosure, I don't like #3. I played at a table that used it and acknowledge that it does save time, but it makes combat encounters very swingy.
I can echo Skerrit's comments here -- when I ran DDEX 1-2 this past weekend, the party only encountered about half of the 'investigation' areas outside the main 'dungeon', but still had enough information to complete the adventure. However, because we had a full table of 7 players, it still took us about five-and-a-half hours to complete the adventure; combats were larger and longer, since some monsters were added via the adjustment guidelines in the mod, and there were more players interested in doing role-playing, so we spent a bit more time on that than we would have with a smaller, more combat-focused party.
All I can say is, if Expeditions adventures are too long for your taste, don't play them.
--
Pauper
Imagine 2 group, the first one are power gamer, with a team working as one. they could do the expedition within 2 hours each and that include the RP and making sure we visited every room. it goes pretty quickly when the map is already drawn and the DM simply need to remove the fog of war, not wasting time drawing the map mid game. We also do not lose time searching the book for rule, we already knwo the rule by heart and if we disagree on a ruling, the DM do a quick decision, take a side note about it and we'll discuss about it after the game. During combat, we know what we want to do before our turn begin, so when our turn start we simply say: 21 to hit, 7 damage with firebolt) then it's the next player turn, no waiting and trying to figure out the best strategy, we already figured it out before hand.
Then the same Expedition in store with a brand new group. the group include new player who had dexterity base barbarian (because someone told him Dexterity was better then Strenght) a rogue who wanted to create a character like a ninja from Naruto using a greatsword??? so no sneak attack. A cleric afraid of undead (and the mission was to clear undead from a crypt) etc... Half the player barely know there spell and class feature, and need to read them each time they want to use it, some of them even need to be reminded that they have the special ability. In combat when it's there turn, they ask what should they do, then the 3 most experience player at the table tell him each a different strategy to follow. It took this group 4.5hours to do the expedition. I'm hoping that with experience, some of those players will learn their class and won't need to read the PHB every round, they will be able to plan their next move before it's there round and will won't ask what to roll when the DM ask to roll a strenght check. When those new player will have learn the game I estimate the runnign time of an expedition to be around 3.5-4 hours.
Then it also depend on the number of players. If you play with 7 players, and end up having to play the very strong option with extra monster, it will take more time, compare to a small group of 3 playing the very weak option. Going aroudn the table of 7 players take more time then 3 players. When 7 players need to read theirs PHB every round it take so much more time then 3 players knowing exactly what to do.
The adventure are well as they are. Start with the defiance in Phlan, they are made to be 1 hour each, they will teach your player how to play their character and will teach them basic strategy in teamwork. after the 5 one hour epidose in Defiance of Phlan hopefully your player will have enought experience to be able to do the other expetition under 4 hours.
At Gen Con most player did there expedition in 3 hours and a half.(My friend was a GM for a table and his table always did it under 3.5 hours)
Some easy tricks,
Prepare your map in advance and cover it, then uncover it as your group explore it. Rolld20 (and I know other virtual table work as well, just choose your favorite) work very well with this using the fog of war option. Instead of buying a map you need to buy a flat screen 30/40inch for a decent table top size, you need a laptop, internet connection and electricity, it require some investement, but it work well.
When player search to knwo how something work, make a quick ruling telling them how it work. This will require that you learn the game very well in order to make a ruling similar to the book. Take note of it, then after the game (or during the break) check the real ruling and adjust accordingly.
You don't need a map for everything, if the fight is VERY simple, you don't need a map, simply describe the battle to the player: you got 2 zombie 60 feet in front of you. the barbarian run foward 30 feet and shoot a javelin 14 to hit, 6 damage. The sorcerer cast Magic missile on teh injured zombie; 10 damage, the cleric cast sacred flamme, Zombie dex 10, 6 damage zombie is dead. The rogue hide behind the barbarian and attack the zombie, advantage 25 to hit, sneak attack 10 damage. The zombie move 40 feet closer. The barbarian attack 14 to hit, 12 damage, zombie dead. The fight is done faster then you could have draw the map.
Let player roll ahead of time. This require to trust the player won't fudge his roll, and won't change his strategy according to the good/bad roll he got. If you can trust your player, then when a player turn come up, the player already know what he want to do (firebolt) already know he hits for 15 (roll 10+5) and deal 8 damages.
Have a easy to see initiative order: use little sticky not or something with the name of the player and reorder them to illustrate the initiative, so player know that after the barbarian it's there turn and they can start thinking what they want to do. ALternatively, you can make a player roll initiative for the players, you roll initiative for the monster, then you go simply monster/player in the order of they are sitting at the table, just to go faster. specially for easy fight where it doesn't really matter.
Ill give my circumstance.
I run at my local store: Good Games Rockingham. Its opening hours are 10:00 am to 4pm on a Saturday which is the day I can run it on. I have my sessions run from 11:30 am to 3:30 pm (so 4 hours). I started with 3 players for Defiance and then in every game since (so 1-2,1-3 and 1-4) Ive had either 6 or 7 players. I literally cant cant run after 4 (and even close to 4 you have staff cleaning up around you and giving the 'I hope you guys are leaving soon' look.
Tyranthraxus wrote:
I agree with the above, play somewhere else if they are not being accomodating. OTOH, you could also start at 11:00 (or even 10:30), this gives you more time before they give you the 'evil eye', and if your group needs more than 4 hours, you have the extra time to finish.
Also, talk to your group about having a second DM. With you + 7 players, you can make two tables with three players each. Also, your newer players didn't play 1-2, so pretty easy to say ...
Hey regular player, please prep 1-2 (which you've had me run for you) and have it on hand so that if 7 people show up (or 8+ ... hooray!) we can split off into another table. Sure, you'll miss 1-5 this week, but we can offer it again (and we can have Regular Player #2 run it ...)
Rotating DMs and sharing the burden allows everyone to play, and offers opportunity for growth.
Tyranthraxus. Is there a reason you can't start eariler if the store opens at 10am? You are starting an hour and a half after the store opens... While the store is open you should be taking advantage of that time. you do not HAVE to keep it with in a 4 hour time slot.. you can run long for paper work and even role playing or just general game time if needed. You should be as acommatating to the store as possible before they should be to your group. If you can't bend first you can't hope or expect them to do so as well. I wish you luck sir! 
Some Expeditions can take longer than others. At gencon ddex1-2 took 3.5 hrs but ddex1-3 took 4 hrs. This wasn't a problem as my table was in the afternoon slot so I knew I did not have to rush the players. Ddex1-3 (moonsea) wasan excellent module and we had a great time. It was well worth the extra 30 minutes.
Ddex1-4 took about 3.5 hrs last monday. I dont foresee a time crunch with ddex1-5 or ddex1-6.
I have a table with a majority of experienced players and a nicely balanced set of classes. The players are all excellent. We use table initiative (players vs monsters for first turn, then all players go at once in seat order) which saves some time and lets people know when they will act. This module has limited roleplaying but has a large area to explore. Time was of the essence.
Most of the modules could easily be broken into 2 parts. This might be a good solution for 7 player or nights when the roleplaying goes long.
TSRO_Kip: I have other non rpg related activities I need to get done on Saturday morning.... sadly whilst I wish I did not . Real life does turn its blowtorch on me occasionally. Also for whatever reason the store opens at 11 am on Saturdays.
Tyranthraxus wrote:
Yeah that had changed since I first posted. It was 10 am, now is 11 am. Im actually running from 11:30 to 4:30 pm most times now.
I played in the Sokal Keep one this weekend and we finished in 3 hours.
I am not an expert, but I run a lot of large tables.
DM time management tricks I have found for larger tables:
* Have someone else track initiative.
* Strongly encourage (nicely) players to have their turns ready. If the group is amicable institute the 5 second rule, if you can't tell me what you are doing within 5 seconds, we move on and come back to you. [Warning some groups love this, others hate it, you want to get buy in before you start]
* Have some assumptions laid out about things like checking for traps, scouting, sneaking etc.
* Set benchmarks for time per portion of the mod. If you have a four hour slot, decide what you think should be accomplished within 2 hours. If the party is on track at that point great, otherwise start streamlining.
* If roleplaying is taking a long time, figure out if the table is enjoying it. If it is one or two players "roleplaying" scenes that don't matter to the plot or are annoying the other players thats one thing, if everyone is invested thats another. If your table is having tons of fun taking it slow, trim out the filler encounter. [Every mod so far has 1 or 2 "setpiece" encounters basically bossfights and 1-2 basically trash packs skip the trash if you have to]
* Don't feel that you have to dole out every piece of information through detailed roleplaying, when crunched for time, give the highlights - basically the intro sentence and a brief description and then some variation of "Ok this is what you learn from this NPC"
* Assuming you don't have the ability to split in two sections, make sure you finish the mod - think of yourself as a movie editor with a set run time. Does it stink to have to cut out some exposition, yes, would it be way worse to have the film just end in the middle of the climax yes! Nothing upsets gamers more than hearing they didn't get to finish the mod, they didn't have time to finish the fight to get the xp and the treasure. If its a failure on the PCs thats one thing, if it was poor time management on the DM thats another.
* FInally, and my favorite, the wrap up turn - Once the threat of the combat is gone, maybe the boss is down and its just the 3 zombies left, or maybe the 4 monsters remaining just have a few hitpoints, whatever. Once the real chance of failure is gone, let the PCs just roleplay the rest of the fight. I tend to pick someone who hasnt had a lot of limelight this session and say "OK, tell me how you end this fight." I am constantly amazed at how much fun players have by setting the dice down and just telling me and the rest of the players what their character does to end the fight. Its usually some crazy display of wicked combat skills but it is almost always a fun part of the session.
In the end, you know your table best. I have played with groups that would easily run one of these mods in 2.5 hours (my current group is pretty no frills when it comes to roleplaying) and I have played with groups that could easily stretch these into 8 hour games through going down every rabbit hole they can find. As long as the group is having fun, it doesn't matter. My best piece of advice is have this conversation with your table, ask them what they want, and if 4 hours is a hard limit, talk about what you can do together to make it work.
Sorxores wrote:
sigfile wrote:
whardell wrote: