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| #1QwertyAzertyMay 14, 2015 4:51:58 | I know that for many of the "on DM approval" stuff, the AL admin are the DM who can approve them, like the use of variant, feat etc... the DM approval refer to the AL admin approval.
I don't care about what you do in your individual table, if this ruling is left to the DM at the table I'll go ask my DM. My question is if the AL admin spoke about Find Steed spell and made a list of approved mont? |
| #2AinulindalionMay 14, 2015 7:22:49 | As Find Steed is a summoning spell, I would assume the same list applies to Find Steed as all other summoning spells.
Further, I would argue that a DM cannot deny you the use of any of the five mounts listed in the spell, but anything else would require DM approval. A DM probably should approve mounts off of the summoning list, as long as they are within the bounds of the requirements of the spell (1 size category larger than the summoner, appropriate anatomy for riding, CR 1/2 or less).
As a DM, I would likely allow higher CR options for higher level paladins (or in specific situations), particularly if they used a higher level spell slot, but that in no way would be required.
I don't think there has been any official sort of statement specifically concerning Find Steed in particular. But that doesn't appear to be the style of this campaign, at least, not currently. |
| #3SkerritMay 14, 2015 7:24:57 | We have not spoken on any list, other than you are limited to player approved sources.
Greg Marks DnDAL Associate Resource Manager |
| (Reply to #3)QwertyAzerty |
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| (Reply to #4)Pauper |
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| #6AinulindalionMay 14, 2015 8:08:28 | But MM Appendix A is limited to 'beasts only' for player options. Which is a subtle (and I think, unnecessary) distinction.
So Phase Spiders, Worgs, Winter Wolves, Blink Dogs, and (I think) Death Dogs (the last two assuming you're a small character) are not legal choices.
But, from Skerrit's statement, anything off of Kalani's list here: http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-adventurers-league/threads/4200301 that otherwise meets the requirements for the spell should be a legal choice with DM approval. |
| (Reply to #6)zagora_01 |
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| #8AinulindalionMay 14, 2015 9:47:56 | There is no official gauge. The DM has to make a call.
Personally, as a DM I allow the CR to double with each higher level of spell slot, though I tend to allow exceptions if there is a decent RP reason for doing so. Though it hasn't arisen in play at any point, I would likely allow stat increases for lower CR mounts summoned with a higher level slot For example, Joe Bob, Paladin 9 really only likes riding on horses, but he's a high enough level that the available horses are a bit weak. He uses a 3rd level slot to summon a Warhorse. I'd likely allow it to have maximized HP instead of average, to make it slightly more survivable at high levels.
2nd level: CR 1/2 or lower 3rd level: CR 1 or lower 4th level: CR 2 or lower 5th level: CR 4 or lower
This permits the summoning of elephants as mounts at higher levels, which I feel is important, since a regular elephant is actually a purchasable mount in the PHB.
Given the exact wording of the spell and the AL Ruling, the legality of summoning a pegasus at higher levels is questionable, but I would likely allow it. (I'd likely allow most reasonable creatures from the MM, though, but that is not currently a defensible position for AL play.) |
| (Reply to #7)QwertyAzerty |
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| #10Coredump00May 14, 2015 12:00:33 | By PHB RAW you summon "a steed", By ALPG, you can only summon a creature that is found in the 'allowed rules'
Thats it for "RAW" allowances and restrictions.
The spell does give some examples, which create some patterns. The CR's are 1/8 1/8 1/4 1/4 1/2. Their form is all 4 legged mammal in the same basic body type as a horse. Aside from the warhorse, they are all pretty wimpy, and mostly useful for transportation.
The question is how does your DM view those examples? How much import does he assign to the examples provided?
Personally, I don't think they chose that list if you were also able to take an elephant, Giant Elk, or GIant eagle. OTOH, allowing something more than a pony for higher level Paladins also makes sense. I kind of like the system Ainulindalion came up with. (well, my Pal5 was hoping for a Dire Wolf....)
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| #11QwertyAzertyMay 14, 2015 12:34:59 |
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| (Reply to #11)TheBreen |
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| #13RCanineMay 14, 2015 22:47:09 |
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| #14Coredump00May 15, 2015 7:20:34 |
As I said, it depends on how you (or the DM) feels about the list of examples.
the list is all 'horse-shaped' mammals, fairly docile, very low CR.
If you feel that list implies that a flying mount is okay, or that they used CR 1/4 examples but allowing a CR 7 giant Ape is okay too.... hey, go for it. They mention a CR 1/4 Elk, if you think that implies that a CR 2 Giant Elk is also okay... hey go for it.
They could have used any 5 steeds to use as an example, they picked *those* 5. I assume there was a reason. None of them are very useful in battle All of them are built like a horse None of them are Giant versions All of them are very low CR
But that could be coincidence..... Maybe they really intended you to have a flying mount, or a mount that is better than the paladin in combat.... |
| (Reply to #13)Pauper |
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| #16RCanineMay 16, 2015 21:39:08 |
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| (Reply to #16)Pauper |
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| #18PrimarchxMay 18, 2015 6:30:01 | In a game I played in recently the DM allowed a player to reskin any of those listed in the spell description but have a character-specific description. This allowed the player to have something cosmetically exotic but within the guidelines of the spell. |
| #19OraibiMay 18, 2015 16:16:54 | My problem with the spell is that apparently my paladin has to lug around the horse's saddle and saddlebags and barding with her wherever she goes when the horse isn't around, which to me kind of defeats the purpose.
I've had some DMs allow me to have the horse appear and disappear with the saddle and barding I bought. But others have ruled that if the horse gets killed in a fight, then I'm stuck carrying around that saddle and barding for the rest of the adventure if I don't have the spell slots.
Needless to say, I tend to use the spell only for flavor and nothing else, because I don't want to depend that much on the DM's opinion.
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| #20RCanineMay 18, 2015 19:31:10 |
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| (Reply to #20)Pauper |
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| #22KalaniMay 19, 2015 13:42:20 | Almost correct. The official stance is as follows:
Find Steed: The steeds listed in the PHB plus any the DM chooses from an Allowed Source (it still follows the FAQ restrictions on creature selection).
This limits players to beasts from the PHB (Appendix D) and the Monster Manual (Appendix A). Pegasi, and other similar creatures would not be allowed in AL (although would be appropriate in a home game). |
| (Reply to #22)Coredump00 |
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| #24KalaniMay 19, 2015 21:24:19 | Even without its own entry, Find Steed is governed by the FAQ update regarding conjured creatures (quoted in today's FAQ update) which states:
When a character casts a spell that summons or creates a creature, from which rules sources may the creature be selected?The player whose character casts the spell may select an appropriate creature from the sources allowed by the Adventurer's League Player's Guide. If, and only if, no appropriate creature is available in those sources, the player may select an appropriate creature from the Dungeon Master's Basic Rules. In the rare instance in which there is no appropriate creature in those rules, either, the Dungeon Master may select an appropriate creature from the Monster Manual. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ As such, players are still limited to beasts (animals) from the PHB and MM (appendix A), and must get DM permission for any beast not listed specifically within the spell's description. Just because the spell requires DM permission for some steeds, does not mean that the DM can choose any steed they desire. As the spell is being cast by a player, they are still limited to the restrictions listed in the FAQ regardless. |
| #25RulesJDMay 19, 2015 23:29:09 |
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| #26KalaniMay 20, 2015 0:19:49 | Actually - no it's not. In 5e "animal" = beast.
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| #27RCanineMay 20, 2015 0:40:28 |
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| #28Byakugan01May 20, 2015 1:46:10 | Yet another example of how their sweepingly broad ruling fails to address the actual individual problems. Like how Planar Ally simply can't be cast by PCs any more, since there are no Gods, primordials, or demon princes, or beings of 'cosmic' power in player legal sources.
The different spells use different wording. One spell says you summon spirits, while another says you summon specific things like elementals or celestials.
What creature from a player legal source is a 'spirit'? Find steed, and some of the other spells don't summon animals or beasts at all....They summon 'spirits' that use the shape and statistics of other creatures. Find steed also has an additional language that heavily implies you should be capable of summoning steeds that -already- have an intelligence of 6 or greater....if the spell wasn't intended to be capable of such, then why is there an 'if/then' clause?
Phantasmal Force specifically says 'you create a creature'...so can it only be a illusory creature of a players legal source? It sure seems like it is a spell that creates a creature and would thus invoke the new rule.
Now that I actually read the FAQ, the ruling doesn't even mention Polymorph at all....It neither summons, nor creates a creature, and it isn't listed in the table listing what the various abilities include...Even stranger, Awaken IS on the list despite the fact that it does not create creatures unless it targets a plant...So, why does it list beasts when you could touch any beast that you are in an encounter with? Or are they saying that creatures that aren't in player legal sources are untargettable by ALL spells? Do you have to like kill every other beast on the planet before you can target a plant, because of the 'if and only if' clause? If you cast it on something that isn't on the list, does it die because it no longer has 'stats'? what? The ruling makes less and less sense the more it gets looked at. |
| (Reply to #28)Pauper |
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| #30KalaniMay 20, 2015 9:31:37 | Polymorph allows giant ape (CR 7) as its highest level form. Shapechange and True Polymorph are limited to creatures in the Allowed Rules - which for the most part means beasts in the PHB/MM (Appendix A), but also includes minor dragons/fey/fiends (pseudodragons, sprites, quazits, imps), and skeletons/zombies (in the case of true polymorph).
This shouldn't really be an issue however, as there are currently no options for adventuring past L16, and as such - true polymorph will not enter into the equation. Even then, while some players will be unhappy with the ruling - it just goes to show how powerful these spells actually are, when their removal/nerfing causes extreme backlash, despite the fact that spellcasters have numerous other spells they could cast instead which are unaffected by the ruling (eg. meteor swarm, prismatic sphere, wall of force, etc). |
| #31RulesJDMay 20, 2015 15:05:47 |
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| (Reply to #31)Saeviomagy |
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| #33KalaniMay 20, 2015 23:45:05 | Any examples of such? Pegasi are celestials; iirc hippogriffs, griffons, worgs and nightmares are monstrosities. None of these things are "animals" although they might look like such. I cannot think of any animal that isn't a beast.
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| #34RulesJDMay 21, 2015 14:41:30 |
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| #35KalaniMay 21, 2015 14:53:22 |
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| #36RulesJDMay 21, 2015 16:35:21 | Are there any Beast types that have an Int of 6 or higher? |
| #37KalaniMay 21, 2015 17:04:47 |
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| #38SaeviomagyMay 21, 2015 17:08:04 |
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| #39KalaniMay 21, 2015 17:21:14 | An interesting point. However one that bares little relevance given the fact that pegasi and nightmares are not in the Allowed Rules, and players can only choose creatures from the DM Basic Rules if, and only if, they are unable to find a suitable target in the Allowed Rules.
As such, this leaves us with Beasts from the MM, and any creature(s) from the PHB. As there is at least one (or more) targets in those sources, the DM Basic Rules is never consulted, nor is other sections of the MM (including monstrosities in appendix A). |
| (Reply to #39)Saeviomagy |
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| #41RCanineMay 21, 2015 20:08:18 | I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the Find Steed entry that requires the found steed to be a beast, only that it's of a form that I, the player choose (with some examples), and that my DM may allow me other animals in addition to this unbounded set. The only limitation, at the moment, is the ALPG's guidelines on allowed creatures (unlike most of the "Conjure X" spells, I agree this is definitely bound by the FAQ).
Part of the problem with Find Steed, however, isn't just that the choice is unbound, but also that it's permanent; so a DM can be put into an awkward position when a player is allowed to summon a mammoth at one table, and wants to bring it with him (for no additional spell slot cost) into the next table. That's the kind of stuff that's fine for a home game but gets weird in OP. |