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| #1guachiDec 21, 2014 7:50:46 | I am playing a character in Adventurers League. My DM has made some rulings contrary to the actual (and, to me, obvious) text of the rule. Not only so I think his interpretations are contrary to the rules but I think they are contrary to AL play as you shouldn't be able to house rule. Before I talk to my DM again, I'd like your opinion on the matter.
Some of his rulings: Players get an ASI at character level four. I was a rogue 3 and picked up 1 level of Ranger and he said I got an ASI. I talked him out of this and he was okay with it as I was reducing my power.
Duelist: he ruled that it didn't work with shields. This affected three players - me and two others. He ruled this way because in his mind "duelist" means using a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. I didn't have the heart to tell him that the archery style works with all ranged weapons and not just bows or that one part of the crossbow feat works with any ranged attack - even spells.
Sentinel: he waited until I was level 5 before ruling I had to be 5 feet from the person who is attacked and not just being to be 5 feet from the hostile creature triggering the attack. Given a rogue's mobility I often find myself behind the enemy and not adjacent to an ally.
The other things he's ruled affect the entire group. He's decided that since we are in act 4 of HotDQ that the game is "basically a home game" and has us fighting monsters I don't think are actually in the act - a bunch of undead. He also handed out treasure in that act that was from LMoP - certificates that hadn't been used as I ran 2 episodes of it and we had left over certificates. Assuming he's not following the rules regarding duelist and sentinel, is there anything I can do to get him to follow the rules and not adversely affect my character? |
| #2KalaniDec 21, 2014 10:59:34 | Ability Score Improvements/Feats
This is a common mistake to make, especially for those players (and DMs) which have prior experience with 3.X or 4th edition. Simply inform your DM that feats are no longer based on character level, and are now listed as class features instead.
Dueling (Fighting Style) When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
Sentinel (Feat) When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn’t have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
Regarding HotDQ Upon reaching episode 4, the game transitions to Casual Play format. This is merely a book-keeping distinction, which I believe helps Wizards track how many tables of Encounters are being run during the AL season, as Encounters is marketed as an entry-level event.
If your DM is introducing monsters, or is altering treasure, encounters, and other parts of the module - you are no longer playing an Organized Play Event, and your progress should not be tracked on your adventure log. I believe the confusion is occuring because of the fact that Hoard of the Dragon Queen is a published module which is also available for non-organized play. If your DM is running this module for Organized Play however, s/he must continue to uphold all of the rules and limitations as defined in the ALPG. |
| #3JeraxleDec 21, 2014 10:55:07 | I disagree with house rules, house ruling is something that has been in every edition of D&D since I started playing 30 years ago, now I am going to go out on a limb and guess your group has the DMG with all its optional rules? If so why doesn't your group and DM sit down and select what optional rules you would like to use.
"Duelist: he ruled that it didn't work with shields. This affected three players - me and two others. He ruled this way because in his mind "duelist" means using a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. I didn't have the heart to tell him that the archery style works with all ranged weapons and not just bows or that one part of the crossbow feat works with any ranged attack - even spells."
As for the word duelist, it is derived from the word Duel, so a duelist is someone who is involved in a formal combat to the death, now I am guessing you meant Dualist copied from pg. 165 of the PHB D u a l W i e l d e r
Archery style kind of implies bow or crossbow not casting.
As for items from previous AL if your group didn't get them from what I know they are "lost" they don't "magically" pop up in later session.
Now in the years of gaming I have rule #1 has always been DM/GM/Storyteller is always right(within reason) maybe you and the DM should sit down and discuss your concerns and see if a comprimise can be hammered out.
Hope that helps.
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| #4KalaniDec 21, 2014 10:58:04 |
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| #5JeraxleDec 21, 2014 11:17:25 | fair enough at the time I was writing my reply I hadn't seen your post Kalani. After seeing yours and re-reading the original post I see that he did mean Dueling fighting style.
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| #6guachiDec 21, 2014 12:34:43 | I apologize for any lack of clarity in my initial post. I am on vacation and didn't bring my PHB and also posted from my phone.
I was, in fact, referring to the dueling fighting style.
Let's assume I could quote the rules to the DM and he still said, "Despite what the rules say, I'm changing them. In my imagination, dueling means no shield." Or "I'm ruling that Sentinel doesn't work that way because..." He didn't really give a reason. I'm assuming it's because he was surprised I could do it and thought it made Sentinel too powerful.
If this were a home game, I'd just tell the DM his ruling is dumb and that it's contrary to the plain meaning of the rules. Waiting to level 5 to make that ruling does nothing but make the game less fun for the player. At least if you are going to make a ruling, make one that enhances player fun (not necessarily power, just fun for the players). Then I'd leave the game. In an Adventurers League game, I expect the rules to be adhered to even if I don't like them. When I DMed an AL session of LMoP I straight up told the players that I wasn't going to alter any rules even if I didn't like them as AL rules forbid that. And if I was doing something wrong I wanted the players to correct me.
Is there anything in the AL rules that says that the rules can't be changed like the DM did? I know it says we can't use optional or variant rules with the exception of playing on a grid.
I appreciate, regarding treasure and monsters, the explanation of the AL rules. That is what I understood them to be, although I couldn't have explained them so succinctly. However, I just tried to find the rules somewhere online and couldn't find them. Is there a link that explains what can be done about treasure/monsters.
I like my character and took a lot of time developing him under the assumption the DM couldn't just jack him around. I haven't played D&D in... a really long time. So I appreciated AL play allowing me to drop in and play knowing what the rules will be. At least, I SHOULD know what the rules will be. The DM accused me of being a "rules lawyer" which is just a lame insult when you don't have the facts on your side. In regards to AL play, I really don't mind being a rules lawyer, though. |
| #7KalaniDec 21, 2014 13:52:10 |
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| #8Coredump00Dec 22, 2014 0:16:34 | Is he the only DM running at that store?
Are there any other stores in the area running AL?
Is there an organizer at the store you could talk to?
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| #9PauperDec 22, 2014 6:47:26 | Technically speaking, the text on p.15 of the ALPG can be used to justify the DM making whatever damn ruling he pleases. You are welcome to appeal to the store owner or event organizer, but ultimately your only recourse if the DM insists on interpreting the rules in a way that seems contrary to the text of the Player's Handbook is to find a different game that is run more closely to those rules.
While it can be argued that a DM should follow the rules as printed in the Player's Handbook, the reality is that there is no sanction or other penalty for a DM that fails to do so.
-- Pauper |
| (Reply to #9)Undrhil |
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| #11guachiDec 29, 2014 16:57:59 | Thanks for the link to that article. That seems the strongest indication that modifications to the rules are not allowed. I could no more rule that Warlocks have d12 hit dice than I could rule that I have to be within 5 feet of an ally to trigger Sentinel (not just 5 feet of the attacking enemy). |
| #12fruptonDec 30, 2014 20:51:23 | Do you have a regional coordinator or local coordinator in your area that you could contact? It might be easier for a third party to help mediate the situation. |
| #13guachiDec 31, 2014 12:47:49 | I probably do but have no idea how to find out. I live in Augusta, GA. The city is on I-20 on border of Georgia and South Carolina.
Just to be clear, the DM is really good. He knows how to DM and keep the game moving. He comes prepared and has played D&D for about as long as I have (30 years). It's just that I think the newness of the game and his lack of knowledge of the rules plus the rigidity of the AL rules are coming into conflict with his typical high knowledge of the game's rules and his years of DMing experience.
He's made numerous other mistakes in his knowledge of the rules and seems less inclined to be corrected than I am. (and I'll admit to being prickly if corrected). But for AL and 5e play, I've managed to adjust my reactions and now welcome players correcting me. It means less work for me, it means the player is engaged enough in the game to look something up when it isn't his turn in combat, and it means (most important to me) that I'm adjudicating a game in line with AL guidelines. I really don't want a player to have any issues moving to a different AL table because of my erroneous rules inpterpretations. |
| #14KalaniDec 31, 2014 17:30:32 | Keep in mind that the most experienced 5E DMs have only had around 2 years experience - and a large portion of that was during the playtest using rules that were altered/replaced every few months with each revision (sometimes wildly so). For instance, during the early playtest materials, there was no such thing as extra attacks. Instead, all martial characters dealt increased damage with each hit, stacking up to 5x damage at 20th level. Like many, I was grateful when they replaced that horrendous mechanic with extra attacks. I understand their reasoning behind the original rule (3.X and 4E were pondrously slow systems due to the multitidue of dice rolls each character made) - but it was a horrible attempt.
When maneuvers were initially introduced, all martial classes gained maneuvers and combat dice. While we loved the concept, it made it very difficult to differentiate the classes, and so by a later playtest, only the fighter retained this ability while other classes gained more streamlined variations (eg. cunning action). My point is that even having playtest experience does not help as much as you would think given how we were essentially alpha testing rules concepts.
The final playtest was stable for the better part of 6+ months however, but even with my 5e experience - there are times when I am surprised by a rule that was altered between the final playtest and the final product.
We are all "noobs" at 5E, so each and every one of us should be open and accepting of being corrected. |
| #15TSRO_KipJan 01, 2015 8:37:36 |
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| #16guachiJan 01, 2015 10:01:08 | Much obliged for the information.
We have basically two people at the shop (me and the DM in question) willing to DM and a TON of people who want to play - not just AL but 5e in general |
| (Reply to #16)Undrhil |
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| #18TSRO_KipJan 02, 2015 12:50:24 |
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| (Reply to #18)Undrhil |
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| (Reply to #16)TheBreen |
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| #21guachiJan 06, 2015 12:21:53 | Well, I've joined the SE Region Facebook group and messaged the coordinator. We'll see what happens.
As a general bit of information, one person on the national AL Facebook group posted today they are putting together the new rules for the new season. If anyone has any suggestions, I'll pass them along. |
| #22guachiJan 15, 2015 19:08:25 | Yay! More fun rulings!
Sneak attack says it works "once per turn". But, no, it really means "once per round" so you can't get a sneak attack on someone else's turn via a reaction attack.
Sigh... |
| #23KalaniJan 15, 2015 19:34:31 |
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| #24Coredump00Jan 15, 2015 21:58:11 | You should get a Twitter account, then you could get Crawford to respond to some of these 'questions' (Don't mention having a bad DM...)
If this is an AL DM... he is not allowed to change the rules, even if he thinks they 'meant' to say something else.
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| #25guachiJan 16, 2015 7:37:04 | I've tweeted Mr. Crawford. I had previously created an account back in November to get clarification of how Shield Mastery works. Specifically, when you can take the bonus action. We have a guy in the group with it and no one really knew how to rule on that one and there is spirited debate even here about that. So, on that point, my only comment to the DM was "I've tweeted for clarification because the internet is divided."
But this rule seems... so obvious... once you've read it. Sure, I can believe people being confused between all the abilities you can do once per round (like reactions) or on your turn (like Second Wind) and needing to look it up.
The DM even said he talked to people at SCARAB, a convention being held this week about 70 miles away and they all agreed you could only use it once a round. So... I've come here to see other's opinions and how they phrase it because I thought I did a decent job explaining it to him.
I can use sneak attack once per turn. It's a different turn. I haven't used sneak attack on this turn. Therefore I can sneak attack - assuming I meet all the other qualifications.
I think he thought it was too powerful. But, in practice it isn't given all the stars that need to align to pull it off consistently and doing so means you give up using evasion and you have to stay in melee range at all times. Pretty dangerous for a Rogue! |
| #26KalaniJan 16, 2015 9:15:32 |
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| #27Coredump00Jan 16, 2015 9:18:15 | Yeah... I don't know what to say.
You can either just accept it. Or try and show him the definitions in the book between Round and Turn, and the wording for Sneak Attack Or you can try and go over his head to the store coordinator, or the regional coordinator... just not sure how that ends up...
But yeah, its pretty clear cut in the rules.
Oh, here's an idea. Try contacting the AL guy from SCARAB, and see what he says. That may go a long way, and isn't the same as going over his head, since he brought them to your attention.
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| #28RCanineJan 16, 2015 18:58:27 | How damaging is this in the grand scheme of things? Is it really worth going to bat over? |
| #29JeraxleJan 18, 2015 9:22:43 | Well it seems pretty apparent from the OP RCanine that there were A LOT of things the DM was doing wrong make decisions opposite to what the PHB states if the decisions he is making take the fun out of the game not too mention that if it is organized play for AL there are set guide lines in place.
On an end note I'd love to hear how this gets resolved Guachi. |
| #30guachiJan 19, 2015 17:44:07 | As someone on another thread pointed out, you could sneak attack up to THREE times in a round. I had, until I saw it mentioned, completely forgotten the 17th level Thief ability that grants another turn on the first round of combat. If you really could only sneak attack once a round, that ability kind of stinks. |
| #31NoonJan 20, 2015 1:39:04 |
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| #32BRJNJan 21, 2015 17:22:48 |
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| #33CyberqatJan 22, 2015 7:25:39 | Okay, theory and practice.
AG *theory* is that every DM should try to follow RAW. This is to ensure reasonably even challenge and play across all AG games. As a veteran Game Master of 30 years, I sometimes find this annoying, but I do understand the needs for boundaries in a shared world, having done shared worlds with other people before.
(1) If you think a rule is being misinterpreted, bring it up here and try to get a ruling from someone actually from Ag or WOTC (Not just another GM). Print that out and show it to your GM BUT don't say "see you're wrong" say "I asked for clarification and this is what I was told." |
| (Reply to #32)Pauper |
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| (Reply to #34)Coredump00 |
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| (Reply to #35)Cyberqat |
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| #37CyberqatJan 22, 2015 8:30:14 | @Guachi
Yes I have a suggestion. Get rid of the rule that magic items cannot be sold off to NPCs like other found equioment can. |
| (Reply to #37)Coredump00 |
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| (Reply to #38)Cyberqat |
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| #40guachiJan 22, 2015 11:31:05 | Two rulings down (one obviously wrong, one probably wrong but enough conflict on interwebs) one to go! Thanks Mr. Crawford!
Ruling one from AL DM shot down - shield bash from shield mastery can occur before or after attack. DM ruled must be after. Most people said you could do it whenever and Crawford confirmed. Totally stupid ruling two shot down - dueling fighting style can, in fact, be used with a shield.
Just keeping fingers crossed on the SA thing. It's not really necessary at this point as I'll probably quit the campaign because of the DM. But the other two rulings were affecting players still playing. |
| #41SkerritJan 22, 2015 11:37:50 | Why quit the campaign entire instead of just avoiding that DM? |
| (Reply to #39)Undrhil |
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| (Reply to #42)Cyberqat |
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| #44KalaniJan 22, 2015 19:26:06 |
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| (Reply to #44)Cyberqat |
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| #46guachiJan 22, 2015 20:26:54 |
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| (Reply to #46)Undrhil |
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| (Reply to #41)Pauper |
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| #49EthanSentalJan 23, 2015 4:07:37 |
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| #50SkerritJan 23, 2015 5:35:23 |
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| #51EthanSentalJan 23, 2015 6:29:02 | Augusta is large enough to probably have a few groups playing. Looking up 30901, 2 shops in Augusta are WPN so another group and DM might be possible. |
| (Reply to #50)Pauper |
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| (Reply to #48)TheBreen |
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| #54guachiJan 23, 2015 11:28:06 | The other "shop" in Augusta isn't so much a shop as it is a place with a bunch of tables. That's not a bad thing, as it's effectively the same thing as far as gaming is concerned. The shop I game/shop at is just down the road so it's really convenient and the other shop is across town. It's an option I considered but rejected for time constraints, unfortunately.
We really do need another DM as there are too many people playing and new players are coming in who could benefit from restarting Encounters or Expeditions already played. But then you get in the situation of me still having to deal with the other DM as players might, and probably will, end up saying things like, "but the other DM said this..."
I like AL play in general as it's a low barrier to entry for new players. Augusta, GA is a military town and there is an endless stream of "I'm new to town and don't have anyone to game with" players that AL can cater to perfectly. The (one hopes) standardized nature of play reduces DM work as I don't have to care about tweaking rules or creating a campaign. So... once I get my campaign rolling (hooray for AL play giving a stable of players to choose from. 3 of my 6 players are from my AL group) I may give DMing AL a try. Perhaps the new season?
Oh... more DM goodness from our Wednesday session. Not sure I mentioned this already. I didn't play 3e or 4e so some of the rules I'm a bit hazy on. I gather that movement inside an opponent's reach was much more restricted than it is in 5e. My DM kept referring to "threatened squares" and "five foot step" so I looked them up. Eventually he got tired of us following the rules from 5e and said he'd houserule attacks of opportunity for moving within an opponent's "threatened square" even though, of course, he can't do that. At least that isn't a rule that would have affected my rogue as I'd just say I use cunning action and dance around him. Alas, with his bad ruling on Sentinel I wouldn't have bothered to stay in melee range much, anyway.
EDIT: I want to be clear that I'm griping not because I dislike AL, but because I like it and I think it has much to offer players, especially new players or players who would otherwise have little opportunity to find a group. |
| #55Coredump00Jan 23, 2015 21:52:54 | I suggest you DM.... let people get used to you following the rules, and maybe someone else may want to DM.
Don't worry about being different, we have 3 DMs, and they are each a very different experience. If he is using different rules, thats on him. You have the advantage of being able to show the players the rule in the book.
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| #56RCanineJan 24, 2015 9:20:13 |
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| (Reply to #56)TheBreen |
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| (Reply to #57)Cyberqat |
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