Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Lilika Jun 25, 2015 12:42:49	I am considering making an Agi based Halfling Paladin.  My major concern is that a Holy Avenger will be a treasure reward in a current or future adventure, but it will be a longsword, or great sword and I will not be able able to use with Dex.  I know the random magic item table just has it listed as Holy Avenger with no sword type, but I don't know if AD adventures will be so accomidating.  I know getting a Holy Avenger would be really rare, but its basically every paladin's dream and I world feel horrible if my little halfling missed out.
#2 Skerrit Jun 25, 2015 12:54:19	I can't say when/how/if such an item might ever make it into the campaign, so I don't think there is an easy way to address your question.    Greg Marks DnDAL Associate Resource Manager
#3 Pauper Jun 25, 2015 13:11:09	AL doesn't use random treasure tables (at least not to this point), so any Holy Avenger sword (or other weapon) would need to be placed specifically in an adventure as treasure by the adventure writer and approved by the AL admins and WotC team.   I actually suspect that if such a weapon is included in a module, it will be a shortsword, scimitar, or similar weapon, as that would appeal to the greatest population of players and be less likely to be abusable by optimizers. But that isn't a promise, as I'm not on any of the relevant committees.   -- Pauper
(Reply to #3) TheBreen	Pauper wrote:
#5 Kalani Jun 25, 2015 13:53:54	TheBreen wrote:
#6 zingbobco000 Jun 25, 2015 20:42:29	I feel like that as a legendary item if the item is not a central item to the plot (i.e. the masks, the items of Besilmer, or the Elemental weapons) then I doubt that they're going to release an adventure with that powerful of an item, however, who knows? Maybe they'll release something along those lines in a higher level expedition!
(Reply to #4) Lilika	TheBreen wrote:
(Reply to #6) Lilika	zingbobco000 wrote:
(Reply to #3) Sorsohka	Pauper wrote:
#10 zingbobco000 Jun 26, 2015 15:47:45	Lilika wrote:
(Reply to #10) Lilika	zingbobco000 wrote:
#12 BRJN Jun 26, 2015 16:26:55	I'm afb, but iirc the Holy Avenger is described as "Sword" - not "Longsword" or "Shortsword" or "Rapier" or &c &c &c.   If one of the wise decisions from LFR is retained in AL, then the cert for a Holy Avenger will make it usable for "any sword" (or a list which should include Greatsword and Rapier).  The special abilities would be layered onto the weapon the Paladin had with him when he entered the adventure, like 3e Legacy Weapons.    Both Finesse and Two-Handed weapons are viable Paladin builds in 5e; neither should be deprived of the class' Capstone possession.
(Reply to #12) Lilika	BRJN wrote:
#14 imaginaryfriend Jun 26, 2015 16:38:17	A Holy Avenger is indeed an iconic item, so I would not be surprised to see one pop up eventually somewhere down the line. However, such an iconic and legendary item would then also come with a background story. Who used it before? Where? Why? Etc. And thus, especially because it is a legendary item, I would be extremely surprised if a mutable Holy Avenger shows up. I am convinced if we see a Holy Avenger, its weapon type will be specifically chosen to fit the story of why and how the Holy Avenger came to show up in the adventure.   Which I honestly much prefer to the "you have found access to the Holy Avenger factory" style of LFR concerning items.
(Reply to #12) Sorsohka	BRJN wrote:
#16 Coredump00 Jun 26, 2015 21:30:47	I understand that some folks would prefer that.  But I am glad the items are handled as they are.  Magic is supposed to be rare and special. Factions that can just create them at will doesn't really fit that narrative.   I like the more organic feel of having to make trade-offs. My paladin had Dueling and was using a sword and axe.  Then He found a Legendary Greatsword....  I like having to make a decision. It feels more natural and follows the fiction better than being able to pick and choose.
#17 zingbobco000 Jun 27, 2015 0:14:41	Lilika wrote:
#18 BRJN Jun 27, 2015 17:28:29	imaginaryfriend wrote:
#19 Kalani Jun 27, 2015 21:18:24	Lets look at a counter argument - the humble +1 weapon. Now these are the most common permanent item around and yet - each and every one in an adventure is a specific weapon.   In fact, while we have had numerous +1 longswords and longbows, we have only had one +1 axe to my knowledge, no great swords, shortswords or other weapons. The +1 rapier makes its debut next season.    Now, given the fact every +1 weapon was a specific type (excluding fai chens +1 weapon of choice special cert) - do you honestly think they would give players (choice of weapon) for something more powerful?
#20 Thoughts_My_Aim Jun 28, 2015 6:56:00	I don't play AL, but I can see the OP's point.   If it's more likely that you'll find a magical longsword than a magical rapier (and according to Kalani that's empiricaly the case) then that is a slight optimisation argument in favour of going STR based rather than DEX based (and you can make a reasonable case that this is a deliberate balance point, since DEX is something of a god-stat in 5E).     The consideration here is basically whether the benefits of (a) playing the character you want and (b) probably actually being slightly better off when magical weapons aren't taken into consideration outweighs the cost of (c) feeling like a pillock when a Holy Avenger does drop, and it's a greatsword.   I might add - again from a position of ignorance about what you can get in AL - that Gauntlets of Ogre Power and the like would allow a DEX-based character to switch to being a STR-based character basically overnight.
(Reply to #20) Sorsohka	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#22 Coredump00 Jun 28, 2015 17:22:43	That is a lot of typing....  my response will be much shorter.   Dex may not be a 'god' stat... more like demi-god or Titan stat.  It effects more aspects of the game and is a bigger help than pretty much any other stat. And yes, it leaves Str in the dust.   The only reason Str has a chance, is because it opens up other balancing factors.... like more damaging feat selections.
#23 Lilika Jun 28, 2015 21:39:17	Dex isn't a god stat, a dex pally will have a lower AC than a str pally.  A str pally can do more damage by taking a great weapon or polearm.  What the dex pally gives you is a better dex save, and initative.     Basically I realized that I could make a fun halfling pally that served Dallah Thaun (the dark half of Yolanda).  With a custom background I could take deception and stealth.  Oath of Vengeance seemed very thematic and when I did a full build up to lvl 20 I was very happy that I made a very flavorful and thematic character that seemed to compete optimation wise as well.     Then suddenly I realized that my little paladin might miss out on every pallies dream the Holy Avenger if a longsword or great sword dropped, because I went with the best halfling stat dex instead of str.   I know this is edition of no more hand waving, everyone doesn't get exactly what they want (as many people attribute to 4th edition and even some 3rd edition).  There are many things that I love about 5e and even though I played a lot of 4th (GM'd a campaign lvl 1-30), I really like the feel of 5th.  It reminds of the feel that 2nd edition had.     There are some scary things about 5th and part of that draws me to it.  More likelihood of character death, random magic items, etc.  It is truly a dm empowering edition.  Even with all that said, there are some iconic things that 5th seems to also realize that flexibility is important.   First, several iconic items are very open to any character in the class.  Staffs for casters, basically every iconic caster item is a staff which all can use(noted that many are certain class dependent, but everyone in those classes can use them well).  Bardic instruments, if you’re a bard you should be able to use it (or spend some downtime to learn if needed).  The Sun Blade, it’s a longsword but it is also a finesse weapon (I know rogues and bards may feel left out, but at least both dex and str characters can use it equally well.  The Dwarven Thrower may seem like a gotcha item, only available to str Dwarves, but let’s face it, there will be a lot more str bases Dwarfs than dex based ones, and it is a weapon that every dwarf will be proficient in.    Finally to this list, if you look at the random treasure table, Holy Avenger is listed with no weapon type.  I know AL doesn't use random weapon tables, but it does give us a clue.  The default method of attaining a Holy Avenger is flexible.     For all we know there will be a Holy Avenger in Out of the Abyss, it may have already been written up and this discussion is mute.  But maybe it isn't, maybe some dev is looking at this thread and trying to see what the people think.     I am hoping that if they put a Holy Avenger into the game that it will be something that any pally will be able to take full advantage of.  Also my little Halfling pally will cry.  Please head the tears of Halfling pallies and don’t keep a truly iconic pally item from smallest warriors of faith.
(Reply to #23) Pauper	Lilika wrote:
#25 ZHDarkstar Jun 29, 2015 11:11:14	This issue isn't exclusive to Holy Avengers, as "any swords" like Flametongue and Frost Brand also exist. Even the Rod of Lordly Might would need clarification about the Flametongue within it. So while the "any sword" magic items have replaced the generic magic weapon enhancements of yore, they've introduced a new potential conundrum for organized play distribution.   Don't quote me on this, but I believe that the retail adventures are no longer outsourced starting with the third season. At the very least, we can hope that retail adventures take AL implications into mind moving forward. I think that the community has been vocal enough about wanting retail adventures up to par with AL restrictions, aka no reliance on milestone leveling. I'm looking at you RoT...   At the very least, I know that an expedition containing one of the "any swords" will be balanced for both Dex and Str swordsmen, as the admins have influence over their content.
#26 Skerrit Jun 29, 2015 11:29:48	ZHDarkstar wrote:
#27 Sorsohka Jun 29, 2015 12:05:46	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #25) Coredump00	ZHDarkstar wrote:
#29 ZHDarkstar Jun 29, 2015 15:32:10	Coredump00 wrote:
#30 Kalani Jun 29, 2015 15:38:05	Speaking of that - I don't think they properly considered the math of the Fire elementals weakness.   The other day, I cast tidal wave (30x10x10 cube). We calculated that a 10x10x10 cube (the space of a fire elemental) is over 7000 gallons - which would instantly kill it. Heck - that kind of damage would kill Tiamat 8x over.    We thought it was a bit OP for a 3rd level spell and so gave it vulnerability to the spells damage instead.
(Reply to #30) Coredump00	Kalani wrote: