Horn of blasting? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 QwertyAzerty Mar 31, 2015 4:53:34	ok, WTF is that? I though that in AL disruptive play was illegal, and here WotC come around and give the players a freaking horn of blasting, or like I prefer calling it horn of alarm. That horn warn EVERYONE in a 600ft radius of your presence. hwo is THAT not disruptive play? Yes I agree that in the hand of a GOOD players, that horn can be use in a SMART way (like if the enemy already saw us and already sent it army against the players or in a desert place with no ennemy within 600ft around.) But let's take that DDEX where you go back in Phlan to save 3 very important NPC. While walking in the street, the player who play DnD because it's fun he's not the most newbish player since he reach level 55 in adventure league, but he's not a veteran neither. Then we get attack by 5 black fist guard working for the evil dragon, and this new player, wanting to do good (he do not have the intention to disrupt the party, he saw my sorcerer cast a fireball and kill those guard before and he figures that his horn can do the same thing and he want to be usefull) tak ethe horn and freaking alert ALL THE GUARD IN PHLAN IN A 600FT RADIUS THAT WE ARE HERE. gg, wave after wave of guard withering our ressoruce slowly but surely untill TPK (well my sorcerer survived, by going invisible and misty steping on the roof of an house, and now he's heading toward a welcomer safe house hoping to find shelter and safety untill the next group come in Phlan to retry this mission. WTF was that Wizard? why are you putting disruptive item in the DDEX series? a series of advetnure that is only for Adventure League in public event. Public event wich by definition the player cannot control who's sitting at the table, unless the player as been deemed disruptive. The horn of blasting is not only a bad item (20% chance to blow up in your face dealing a lot of damage,but I almost liek this part since once the horn explode your stupid caracter who wanted that horn might die, and even if your character don't die, then at least the horn is destroyed and you are still punished by still being forced to count that horn toward our permanent magic item that NO ONE will EVER trade) And this player who caused the TPK is not even disruptive, he was feeling SUPER bad that he caused a TPK. So now you can imagine if that item goes in the hand of a disruptive players. So when running Adventure League DDEX series, you can find item that are an interest to a very small portion of the character (headband of intellect will interest wizard who don't want to reach 20 Intellect ASAP and Eldritch knight/Arcane trickster who want to use many DC dependant spells) Item that can be replace by mundane item like a splintmail+1 can be replace by a mundane full plate, and now disruptive item like the horn of blasting, which can easily cause a TPK by sending waves and waves of monster.
#2 Byakugan01 Mar 31, 2015 5:20:27	Is there a horn of blasting in season 1 or 2? It isn't so much worse than a character casting Thunderwave or a few other spells that all say they can be heard 300 feet away. The party where that happened was very dumb for not immediately doing a tactical retreat. Everybody Dashes for 2 rounds and you will be 120 feet away from where that big sound came from. In a city that is easily 2 blocks away and out of sight and sound of new enemies. From my perspective it seems like the DM gave you time to try and escape because you say they kept coming in waves...Although to be fair, the DM should have asked pointedly 'ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THAT?' and informed them of the probable outcome. Tell the Wizard he should have cast a rope trick and the party could have easily hidden for an hour till things calmed down(and took a nice comfortable short rest in the middle of the seige). Players doing dumb things is certainly annoying, but it isn't really disruptive. It is kinda normal in organized play actually....
#3 Coredump00 Mar 31, 2015 7:24:33	1) I have no idea how you came across the Horn in the first place. The only one I know of I am pretty sure you can't find intact. 2) Using an item in a poor manner is not the fault of the item, nor of WotC.
#4 QwertyAzerty Mar 31, 2015 7:29:28	Thunderwave at least you can have the excuse that it can be fun in a homebrew campaign where you play with other people that you choose. But yes I do have a problem with Thunderwave (and other alarm spell warning the entire dungeon about your location. Even if you run away, considering that some of the player have no stealth (heavy armor fighter/cleric) and few player have escape option (I was able to misty step / invisibility, the rogue dash cunning action hide), druid can become a rat and just be an other rat in a ruins city, the monk can outrun anyone walk up the house jump over the street and just loose anyone silly enought to try to catch him, but the fighter, cleric, barbarian paladin of the group? they cannot run fast enought to loose anyone, they cannot hide so well to escape an army searching the area, they cannot cast spell allowing them to escape and they can still be track (technically the rogue too could be tracked) leaving only the misty step sorcerer and the druid a chance to escape and find a safe house. At the table we had a rogue, but he didn't want to abandon the party, we had a cleric and a fighter in full plate, a barbarian (the player with the horn of blasting) and me the sorcerer who stay as long that i could, but when I saw the fight was lost misty step on the rook of a house, making any track attempt almost impossible, then invisibility. The player didn't mean to be disruptive and he felt super badly that he cause a TPK (technicaly not a TPK since I escape) but that player was having a lot of fun, he was super happy when he got the horn, and he was laughing until the DM sent the 4th waves of black guard and the cleric said that he was running out of spells. Now I fear he might not come back, we tried to tell him that it was no big deal and stuff like that happen, but that barbarian was his only characer level 5+, so now he need to find a table playing tier 1 stuff (we are a small store so we only play 1 table and rarely we'll get a second table) and since the other player are not interested in replaying the tier 1 adventures from season 1, he'll have to wait for when we'll start season 2. We might start season 2 next week, depending on what the table want to do, but most of the other players do have an other character level 5 (one from LMoP who died for most of them) and one from all the DDEX1-X adventures. but that new player wasn't with us when we did LMoP, so he will have to wait untill season 2. So because he got a stupid item that should be only in home game where if the character die you can create a new character lvl 5 and continue running with your friends, or you can start back from level 1 and still play with your friend level 5+ etc... but in AL this is not legal (could be possible, but wouldn't be legal and some of those rule lawyer player could complain and cause trouble. So this new player who was enjoying the table, the other players and the game, now have to wait untill we start season 2 and from what I heard DDEX2-3 and 4 are tier 2 adventure, so he'll be able to play DDEX2-1, DDEX2-2, then wait again untill we get to DDEX2-5.
#5 QwertyAzerty Mar 31, 2015 8:08:14	Coredump00 wrote:
#6 MasterNamer Mar 31, 2015 8:25:31	It sounds like your dm decided to tpk the party, not your friend who used the horn of blasting. You survived, so why weren't you able to go back and get the bodies to a cleric to preform raise dead? Why were all the guards in the city seconds away from your position?
#7 QwertyAzerty Mar 31, 2015 9:05:32	MasterNamer wrote:
(Reply to #7) MasterNamer	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#9 QwertyAzerty Mar 31, 2015 10:24:48	how am I suppose to bring those corpse out of the city? I'm not strong enought to carry those body, and the other reason that I explained in the spoiler box (you might want ot delete the spoiler part of your quote otherwise it become meaningless to put them in a poisler box) The DM is not preventing us from ressurecting those caracter, they simply died in a position hard to do so, but if we bring a rescu team we might be able to get the bodys back (the DM allowed me to ask some citizen to bring my friend corpse out of the street hoping that a rescue team would arrive quickly. Other module do offer permanent death that cannot be solve within AL rules Show the slaad from the Pyramide of the sorcerer isle, if they hit you and infect you with egg, if you don't get a "cure diseases" within a fw days, you need a wish to be revive, and godo luck to find a arcane spell caster level 17+ willing to cast Wish for you (specially this Wish would make the caster risk to permanently loose the usage of Wish, so the price will be steep)
#10 Nevvur Mar 31, 2015 10:41:19	A player made a poor decision (using a loud magical item during a stealth mission), and the DM took extreme liberties in reacting to this decision, and this is somehow WotC's fault for including a "bad magic item." ....okay.
#11 QwertyAzerty Mar 31, 2015 12:01:46	I agree the player didn't use the best tactical option, but what do you expect from new player who never took military strategie course? What do you expect from new player who try DnD because they taught it would be fun to play a game like World of Warcraft but without being limited to the game parameter, knowing that in World of Warcraft you can use anythign you want even in front of the monster, as long that you don't get too close to them they will watch you butcher there friend. So yes it's WotC fault for trying to get new player into there game and then giving them item that are difficult to use when a lot of better option existed. Then no it's not the DM fault if he follow what is inside the module. We are stuck inside a city under the control of a tyrannic evil dragon and that dragon just got control of the city so he still need a lot of guard patroling the street to keep the town under control and to defeat any attempt to overthrow him. Would have been really wierd if the player woul dhave blow the horn making a lot of noise within 600ft radius, but no one come investigating what happen. The Dm was already very generous allowing the barbarian to rage, the clash of sword, fireballs expoding without alluring nearby guard from nearby street, but a 600ft alarm? go ahead tell me honestly that if you where DMing you would allow a 600ft alarm system without sending any guard to investigate. yes we tried to run away but like I said previously a fighter and a cleric in full plate is very hard to hide them from an army investigating (specially when that army find the bodies of there butchered charred dead friend on the ground, they should assume they died from natural causes and not call reinforcement? oh let me guess, we were suppose to tell that new player to NOT use his horn... like NEVER (because in how many DDEX is there a 600ft radius free of monster wanting to kill you?) and he was stuck with that horn of blasting and he should leave it at home, it still count against his number of magical item so he's not allowed to get an other item untill we all have one, but he's not allowed to use it NEVER. (I did a post not long ago on why the developper are trying to trap the new player with bogus magical item and EVERYONE disagree with me that those item are super usefull and they are happy to find them) Go ahead proove me wrong, please tell me in which DDEX does the horn of blasting could be usefull? do you thing this is worth a permanent magical item slot? do you thing the new player will be happy to gain an item that he can only use when the experienced player give him permission to do so, otherwise it will cause a TPK (for all intented purposes) Comparing the horn of blasting to: the longbow +1 the archer got he uses it every attack he do in every combat in every module. the cloak of Elven kind allowed the rogue to scout in impossible situation and pull some miracle outcomes, the Ioun stone +1AC saved the monk life many, many time, stacking on his unarmored defense. The ring of evasion saved teh fighter life against those breath weapon from the dragons, allowing him to automatically succeed on a dexterity check even if he got 8 dex and no profiencies. And here little Jonnhy with his horn of blasting that everytime he use will alarm EVERYONE within 600ft and got 20% chance to explose in his face, both could possibly result in a TPK (specially if they both happen at the same time) Because of the 20% chance to explose you'll use the horn when you REALLY need it, you won't waste it against 4 Kobolds since as a barbarian level 5 he can kill 2 with his action, then with great weapon master kill an other with his bonus action, and when the 4th one try to run away he kill him with his reaction. He's going to use it when we coul duse a big AoE dealing big damage, when we are already in trouble, and here come more toruble coming and BOOM the horn explose in the barbarian face etc.... Thank you WotC for this great item that saved the life of many, many... black fist at the service of the evil green dragon in Phlan. I would have hate receiving a cape of the mountebank allowing me to use dimension door once per day and there for helping my party by moving myself and one party member (the one with the less mobility) by reaching a hard to reach places. I would despise receiving a wand of war magic giving a bonus to the ranged spell attack roll to the scorching rays of the sorcerer. Please WotC can you give us a Rod of the Pact Keeper in the next module, the ranger wolf need a stick to play go fetch, since we have no warlock in our group (and I'm sure many group have no warlock, considering the standard group is 4 player big, and there is 12 available classes. Or please, please, can you give us a sentient weapon that will add 10d6 force damage, and will have 20 charges to be able to cast stoneskin, bless, and banishement smite and the sword itself is able to maintain 3 concentration spell, the drawback is the sentient weeapon personality. The personallity of this sentient weapon will be: he want to kill ALL divine caster without any distinction, even other PC playing divine caster (the divine caster for the sentient weapon purpose are Cleric, Paladin, Druid, Ranger) this weapon would be SOOO fun when the new player take it and start attacking the party cleric, and the rest of the party is looking at him saying, sorry dude we are in Adventure League so we cannot stop him from killing you since this would be consider PvP.
#12 Nevvur Mar 31, 2015 13:15:12	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#13 Ainulindalion Mar 31, 2015 13:14:56	Phlan, by the map, is approximately 1.6 million square feet (using the approximation of an ellipse 2000 feet in the long dimension and 1000 feet in the short). The Horn of Blasting's sound radius covers half the city. If the population is 10,000 souls, that gives them 160 sq feet each. That's roughly 6 squares (which is pretty damn small space per person). Assume 5% or 1 in 20 (which is really high at more than 10x the percentage of police to citizens in NYC) were members of the black fists prior to the arrival of the green dragon. That's 500. Most (but not all) join the Tears. Many are killed in the fighting. Assume 300 Tears remain in the city. Assume twice that many cultists, and round it to 1000 total. Figure no more than 300 on patrol at any given time, with a standard patrol of 5. That's 60 patrols. Each patrol is covering 26.7 thousand square feet (or a circle with a radius of 92 square feet). That puts patrols, on average, 180 feet apart at any time. That is three full rounds of movement to arrive at the location of another patrol. Assuming easy, straight paths, 18 seconds after firing off the horn of blasting *or doing anything that might even sound a little like combat, 8 patrols arrive. Oh, but wait.... assuming these patrols have light crossbows (fairly standard guard material), they are in range AFTER THE FIRST ROUND OF MOVEMENT. That's 40 attacks every round from here on out, minus any that the party manages to kill. Assuming the guards need a 13 or higher to hit party members, 40% of those attacks hit, with 2 being crits. A light crossbow on a guard is going to do an average of 6.5 damage. That's 88 damage to the party PER ROUND. That's two dead party members, more than likely. Your party lasts 3 rounds if you're very lucky, maybe 6 rounds (by which point more guards will definitely arrive), if the dice are falling the player's favor. Alternatively put, any* combat in the streets of occupied Phlan is going to result in a TPK if the DM is bothering with realism. The Horn of Blasting has nothing to do with it - it's merely an excuse.
#14 CahPahkah Mar 31, 2015 13:16:21	I'm not sure why you're so hellbent on complaining about WotC and the AL and making excuses for everyone at the table, but have at it, I guess. But the problem in your situation isn't the horn.
#15 Nevvur Mar 31, 2015 13:18:01	lol, Ainulindalion, we have pretty vastly different opinions on the enemy presence in Phlan. Just goes to show that DMs have a lot of wiggle room to adjust encounters.
(Reply to #15) Ainulindalion	Nevvur wrote:
#17 Coredump00 Mar 31, 2015 14:01:31	1) On a stealth mission solidly behind enemy lines, a player decides to use a Horn of Blasting. 2) Player was encouraged because other players thought it made sense to use spells like Fireball on a stealth mission behind enemy lines 3) No other PC (when they see him pulll out the horn) thought to say "Hey, that will make a lot of noise; do you want to rethink that?" 4) The DM never thought to say "You can do that, but recall it makes a whole lot of noise" 5) All of the players decided to not even try to run away or hide, or run into an empty building, or.... do anything except wait for the blackfists 6) Somehow every blackfist patrol knew exactly where the epicenter of the noise was, and could run straight there. (Luckily for the BFs, the PCs stayed at the epicenter) 7) There was apparently at least one patrol just 6 seconds away. 8) There was apparenlty several patrols just 20-30 seconds away 9) No one considered or attempted to try a fighting retreat 10) No one tried to create a diversion or distraction to get patrols to go elsewhere I just don't get how you try and blame WotC for this. Oh, and quite harshing on the Headband.... my PC loves his headband, and hand to outroll 3 other people that also wanted it. And if you don't want the Horn of Blasting... no one is forcing you to take the horn of blasting.
#18 QwertyAzerty Apr 01, 2015 5:03:20	Like I already said the DM was already very generous to allow us to fight in the street without sending the army against us, the horn was teh drop that overflow the glass. Then every citizen who stayed in Phlan are staying in there home and rarely go out and when they do they do it quickly and stealtfully going from house to house, never staying in the street for very long. So yes when the guard hears a horn getting blast it will cause an alert, the regular respond of : "oh it's just the fog horn of the boat inthe port" is not legitimate since THERE IS NO BOAT DOCKING AT NIGHT IN A EVIL CITY NEWLY UNDER THE CONTROL OF A GREEN DRAGON, still fighting the rebels and reinforcing his control on the city. If you are smart enought to remember all the detail of your item and to realized in time the consequences of everything, while you are having fun player a fun game, then gratz for you, I guess this new player is too dumbto play DnD, from now on we'll ask to every new participant to do an exam about how to play DnD and adventurer tactics and if they fail we'll politly tell them they are too stupid to play with us. Then YES it's WotC fault, and it's there fault I'll let you choose why: -They allow new player without Adventure tactic experience (from DIFFICULT video game (World of Warcraft not included) to play. (I do not believe this is the reason, I do believe the DDEX are easy enought so new player can learn how to play trought them, and as a company they need to bring new player to their game in order to make money and keep giving us new games) -They are the one who put an magical item in the modules that is obviously an offensive item but that cannot be use in enemy territory, They could just as easily put any other easy to use magical item (cape of mountebank, helm of teleportation, boot of speed etc... that would allow him to use a cool new item without causing a TPK - They wrote an adventure inside enemy territory where it's logical to expect that if you do a 600ft alarm you'll get in trouble (I do not believe this si the reason neither, since making an adventure that would without any enemies sound like boring, DnD is based on 3 pillar, Social, Exploration and COMBAT, and in order to please all 3 pillars you need enemies to fight and that fight need to be dangerous otherwise we are missing the challenge aspect. So how do we fix the problem, we tell this new player that his banned for using a item at the wrong moment so being diruptive? if so where is the line? when does a mistake become disruptive? - Does the Fighter running in combat and positioning himself in a manner that prevent the sorcerer from casting fireball can be consider disruptive too? - Does the cleric not healing the fighter when the fighter request it can be consider disruptive? - The rogue wanting to stay with the party to help the party fighitng instead of running away and distracting the next wave is disruptive? - The sorcerer keeping 2 spell level 2 available so he can cast misty step / invisibility to escape bad situation is this consider disruptive? The DM giving us a chance to fight but still giving us a consequance when a HORN of blasting is used is disruptive? ok they I guess the entire table should be banned from AL.... or we can blame WotC who put stupid horn of blasting in an adventure they wrote so new player new to the game/genre can experience the game. They could have put any other rare magical item without causing any problem, but no, the horn of blasting was such a great idea, to put an item that should NEVER be used in an adventure that bring you in enemy territory, this is probably the most fun item that could have be put in the previous module, giving the player a weapon of dragon slaying, or a censer of X elemental summoning would have been so boring, no I agree with WotC a horn of blasting, the item that alert the entire dungeon is way more fun...
#19 QwertyAzerty Apr 01, 2015 7:22:07	Sorry Skerrit, I admit this might have want out of hand and I got emotionally involve in it, but my initial concern is geniouine and not a troll attempt. I am concern about the type of magical item WotC are putting in there module. - Item that can be effectively use by a limited amount of people (like a headband of intellect, even if it can be used by a paladin, it not what I would call effectively used by him) - Item who can be use to cause grief to the group (on purpose or by accident) like a horn of blasting able to alert the ennemy - Item who can offer little more then a mundane item. Yes I know that the group is not force to take the item and it's totally fine to leave the item behind (but then we loose the magical item reward of that module. and me as an experience player I know to not take the horn of blasting, because in 90% of the case it won't be useable since in most dungeon type adventure, alerting everyone within 600ft is dangerous, - but this will not stop the ne wplayer to take that magical item who he believe is so cool beccause he don't see the consequences, all that he see is 30ft cone dealing 5d6 damage to everyone, and he might not understand the little subtelity of the rule where even once teh horn explose in his face, it's still count against his permanent magical item count and unless the entire table agrees (which in public game can be very difficult to obtain) he will have to wait for everyone to have the same amount of magical item as he does, and forever he will have to carry a useless broken horn of blasting. - This will neither stop those griefer (lucky we don't have those at my table, but I've play enought MMO to know that there is greifer who get pleasure out of pissing of other player, and even in Adventure League, those players that I see wanting to create a character who flaw is: No matter what I kill all [insert description here] on sight, even if my party disragree and want to capture him alive), yes such a character could be simply dismiss by the DM using the ruling that you must create a character that will HELP the party and create an enjoyable experience for the other player. Those griefer will be more then happy to take that horn (withou even rolling since all the experience player decided to leave it there) and then use it at the worse moment (since no rule in Adventure League prevent you from using a magical item that you acquire legitimatly). I know magical item are optional and technically your character could reach level 20 without a single magical item and still be usefull and relevant doing the official release material for Adventure League. But on the "fun aspect" many player (specially those coming from Video game) love to receive new magical item (just look at all the frustration people go throught to create raid group to get some purple item in those MMORPG game, and all the drama that occur when someone "ninja loot" something or when the raid leader give the rare legendary item to the other rogue .... and even if you are not one of those player who don't care if you going to receive a new item, a lot of player do care about receiving this new item. I would propose that for those players (those who care about magic item and who enjoy receiving a new magical item and who are all excited for new week when he can try it), running an adventure and learning at the end that the magic item is useless (a rod of the pact keeper in a group without warlock, or a splintmail+1 when the heavy armor users already have a mundane full plate or a permenant magic item (like a horn of blasting) that can never be used because it alert everyone in a 600ft radius and when you use it there is a 20% chance to destroy the item, but it still count toward your permanent magic item count. I also propose that by simply offering "smarter" item choice in the DDEX module you could easily increase the fun aspect for those player who enjoy receiving new magical item, without affecting the fun of thsoe player who don't care about magical item. and for the griefer who enjoy receiving an item that would allow them to cause grief to the party (like sounding a horn of blasting in the middle of enemy territory) and if the consequence of increasing the fun of a certain type of player, decrease the fun of griefer and might encourage them to leave the table, then good riddance. By smarter item choice I'm not saying that every magical armor need to be studded leather, half plate or full palte, I'm not saying to only give Best in Slot items. A dragon scale mail can be a great magical item, yes a mundan full plate offer more AC, but the dragon scale mail offer elemental resistance. Instead of a horn of blasting, give a necklace of fireball. When you want to give a very specialized item liek a heavy armor, or a rod of teh pact keeper, maybe it could be an idea to offer the choice between 2 or 3 different magical item, and the player choose which item he want, so for example, NPC A ask the player to do a quest for him, and if they succeed in the quest, they will be able to choose one item between those 3 item: Rod of the pact keeper, Cape of Montebank or greatsword of X. 2 very specialized chocie that few character can use, and if none of those class are present, then a general item that would please pretty much anyone (the cape of mountebank) Or even go back to previous magical item from LFR (I believe it was there) where each adventure would give 1 magical item to every player and the player could choose between a list and if 2 player wanted the same item they could both that the same item, but I understand that this would bring way too many magical item and would unbalance the math since "technically" the math have been done considering that the player had no magical items. So to reduce the amoutn of magical item, somethign simple like, all magical item found in an adventure need to be given back to the faction and using faction token you can buy a magical item. This is a quick idea without much details, but I can easily imagine: For every renown point you gain, you also obtain 1 token, then for the price of 3 token for an uncommon item, 7 token for a rare, 12 for a very rare, 15 for a legendary item choosen from a list available in the season Adventuire league player companion (and that list could be restricted to that season, or could be added to the previous season, meanign that factions store would grow each season, the list could change completly, slightly and not change at all between the faction etc...). Then to avoid player to horde there token in order to buy legendary item, you need to be rank 2 to buy an uncommon item, rank 3 for a rare item, rank 4 for very rare item and rank 5 for legendary item, since the faction won't allow anyone to use there precious magical item. For player without a faction, a underground market working in a similar fashion? the sponsor HQ? like I said I'm not taking time to think about this is just a quick idea I'm throwing out there, trying to solve many problem I can see on the forum (player complaining that the current system is unfair, since people can abuse the system, corrup tthe DM to optain a particular item, etc... And remember caracter are limited to 3 attuned item (yes you can own more, but can attuned only 3 at a time) so the rule are already in place to avoid players from gathering 10 powerful magical item and overpowering the other players. With the attunement mechanic this encourage player to limit themself to 3 powerful items, a potion (anymore would be dangerous since they can sometime react strangely to each other, but I don't know if this is enforced in AL) and some small effect item that do not require attunement.
#20 Skerrit Apr 01, 2015 7:46:54	The Admins do not pick the items, but rather HQ does (as they print the certs). Nothing can be changed about the items currently in the campaign as they are already out there. I also strongly disagree that many of the items on your list are useless or subpar. I do not believe there is anyway to remedy your bad experience as it has already occurred. Greg Marks DnDAL Associate Resource Manager
#21 QwertyAzerty Apr 01, 2015 7:56:16	Skerrit wrote:
#22 Kalani Apr 01, 2015 8:16:58	Sure.... but there is one major difference between the two. Magic vs. mundane. Magic items are far less vulnerable to damage than mundane items. Without spoiling anything, this is a potential issue in Princes of the Apocalypse wherein at least one monster has the ability to instantaneously destroy mundane items it comes in contact with.
#23 Coredump00 Apr 01, 2015 9:04:02	Dude, the reason you come across as a troll is because you rant and rant and rant.... but seem to have no desire to have a conversation. You will occasionally pick out a word or two from a response, but only to use them for another looonngg rant. You completely disregard other people's opinions and assume only your opinion represents 'reality'. My Paladin was offered a magic item that gave him a +5 on 5 different skills, but you say its worthless and you think it should never be offered.... sorry bud but my Paladin will take that headband over a +1 Battle axe without a second thought. I like a world where magic items are not always the ideal item you could think of.... I like a world where some magic has drawbacks or limitations... I like a world where some magic items are not or everyone. If you don't like that item. Don't. Take. That. Item. I don't need the magic items to come with training wheels.... My ranger would likely never take the Horn... its unlikely but my Paladin might... my Warlock/Wizard.... oh boy could he have fun with that. And my Paladin would be happy with the Tankard. (Another 'worthless' magic item....i guess) But yes, I do blame your DM. He set up a situation where the guards were so far away that they could not hear combat and so far away they could not hear a fireball..... but then were so close you guys had no chance to run away.... wut?? And then it turns out that the nearby area is chock full of patrols.... wut?? And what about you...?? When you saw him pull out the Horn, how come YOU didn't bother to say anything?? This was a stealth mission, behind enemy lines... yet none of you (nor the DM) were treating it as such. Then when the 'new guy' followed your example, you decide to blame WotC..... ummm... okay.
#24 QwertyAzerty Apr 01, 2015 11:31:25	Ok, I might be wrong on some item and if you are happy to have a paladin using a headband of Intellect, and you won't mind when a holy avenger drop, then a full plate+2 giving it's wearer the elemental adept (radiant) feat and a Cloak of Charisma forcing your character to choose only 3 item to be attune too or if you don't mind the fighter taking that holy avenger because he have 1 less magical item then you then it's cool for you. and I'm sure other player think like you but I'm sure other player think like me and other players have a 3rd different point of view. Then yes I might become a little hard headed when people attack my table, the kids is a new player he doesn't know everything yet, and when he play he does't always think about all the consequences that will happen, and when I saw his face when the DM killed the last player (and that I ran away) and when he started to say sorry to everyone, and that he was wondering if he could still play with us next week, even if he doesn't have a character level 5 anymore. it kind of hurt me, I was having fun mentoring him (both out of game, teaching him how to play and in game, my sorcerer was giving him advice on tactics and strategies). Then the other people accusing the DM who do great job he put a lot of time in preping those game, and will be very leniant to like preventing nearby patrol to hear us fight when using fireball and the barbarian raging exactly to avoid a TPK, but he doesn't want us to get lazy and believe that we'll never die, and that we can safetly do anything, so if someone blow a horn of blasting there will be consequences. Then yes I could have told him to NOT use the horn, then I could tell him that he should attack monster A instead of monster B, thinking about it, I might as well just take his character sheet and play 2 characters and let him watch? At our table we decided that if we cannto communicate in game, we cannot communicate out of caracter. So if my sorcerer if not looking in the barbarian direction and he's busy fighting an other ennemy, then I don't see the barbarian pulling the horn and yell at him to not use it. This is how we create immersion at our table, and player seem to appreciate it and at the same time it prevent the experimented player from controlling the character of the less experimented players, if the barbarian fight side by side to the fighter, then the fighter can tell him to take that monster, but for the sorcerer to tell something for the barbarian it would be harder since he's farter behind. Then yes we would have love to run away from the epicenter, but after the horn was blown, we still had to finish the group of black fist, requiring 2 rounds (12 second), then we started to hear the other guard approaching so we try to run but the fighter and cleric failled their stealth roll (since they are both in heavy armor and have low Dex) so the guard were able to follow us no matter where we want, and the more we run randomly in the street, the more we have chance to attract other patrol, and any patrol seeing the patrol already runnign after us will join them., so maybe if we would have stay at the epicenter we could ahve survive, but because we ran additional patrol got added. The rogue was able to distract some of those patrol, but once those patrol check teh trash and don't see anything, they'll join the other patrol on the chase. The DM did this not because he wanted to TPK us, he did that because that is want seem logic when you infiltrate a city under ennemy control where normal citizen very rarely go out. If I seem inflexible is because the entire community are only repeating the SAME argument, and that argument do not make any sense. For example I receive the arguement that some guard won't go investigate the sound of a horn in a city where the Evil Green dragon is still fighting rebels to seize complet control, then I got people saying: "bah there is very few guard in that town"... "the guard are too busy drinking to respond to a horn blowing"... "the guard believe someone else will take care of it"... yeah I'm sure the evil green dragon will understand that the guard was too busy drinking on the job or believe it was someone else business so he didn't join the fight and no opportunistic citizens joined the rank of the guard, bolstering the black fist numbers, hoping to survive and be able to put food on his family table.. Those guard are not greedy to the point of wanting to take the gold and items from those invader, and they are is no way that those guard want to be able to bring the head of those pesky adventurer slowing down the dragon cult activity in the region hoping for a promotion? Or an other argument: you could have done this instead, or you should have done this, Well who said we didn't try to run away? it just failed because our party got heavy armor user. Or you ask us to metagame and prevent a player from using his magical item, then this proove my point that this item is pointless if your not suppose to use it in enemy territory (since by definition, most DDEX adventure should happen in ennemy territory. In most DDEX there will be some ennemy wanting to kill you if they learn of your location.
#25 Ainulindalion Apr 01, 2015 11:59:25	The Horn isn't useless. It does exactly what it says it does. Sure, there's a risk associated with using it. Sure, it makes noise audible for 600 feet. 1: 600 feet isn't really that far. Phlan is just really tiny. 2: Inside, just because the sound can travel 600 feet doesn't mean that it necessarily will. Walls and such could prevent the sound from traveling. Hallways and corridors could warp the sound and make it impossible to determine where it came from. Outside, rain or snow could dampen the sound. A storm could cover up the sound. Mass combat could make the sound unimportant. 3: The Horn is no different in this situation than your bard, druid, sorc, or wizard casting Thunderwave, other than the radius is a bit higher. Hopefully, you plotted out a strategy ahead of time and agreed on NOT DOING THINGS that alert the enemy. If you've got a new player, and they forget the feature of the magic item, you should certainly, either as the DM or another player, remind them of it BECAUSE THEIR CHARACTER WON'T HAVE FORGOTTEN (more than likely). Your 'we don't speak about things our characters can't realistically effect because of immersion' is an excuse to hang people out to dry because they forgot something. You don't have to run their character, but you can certainly remind them of a rules option or effect that their character would know. If you're choosing not to play this way, that isn't the fault of WotC. The fact that WotC isn't putting in magic items that fit your idea of character optimization isn't the fault of WotC. The entire point of Adventurer's League is for WotC to increase the player base and expose people to elements of D&D that they might not have seen before. The point of having 4 to 8 players at the table to make sure that no one forgets anything that ends up being important. You're supposed to work together.
#26 Skerrit Apr 01, 2015 12:10:52	I will go back to my original suggestion that we should just leave this thread to die, as there is no way to fix the occurance that already happened.
#27 QwertyAzerty Apr 01, 2015 12:17:52	Ainulindalion wrote:
(Reply to #27) Ainulindalion	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #27) Coredump00	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#30 DemoMonkey Apr 01, 2015 14:45:57	After the third wave of guards with more on the way and no way to escape, did your group consider surrendering? And if not, why not?
#31 Oraibi Apr 02, 2015 3:25:40	This is a truly ridiculous thread. The only thing I got out of it is the location of the horn of blasting. Thanks for that!
#32 QwertyAzerty Apr 02, 2015 4:38:08	Coredump00 wrote:
#33 QwertyAzerty Apr 02, 2015 4:44:36	DemoMonkey wrote:
#34 Mirtek Apr 02, 2015 11:56:29	While I agree that a HoB is a bad item due to the particularities of AL's item distribution system (20% chance you increased your permanent item count for flat out nothing in return and even after that it's a semi-consumable/semi-permanet item), it's not the fault of Wotc or AL when someone uses an item without reading what it does or without applying what the item does to the situation at hand. The DM might be to blame a little bit because he already allowed very loud stuff to happen, which could have lulled the players into a false sense of security with regards to acceptable noise. I also think he overestimated how many guards can be at duty at the same time. One could argue about things like leather armor +1, but I think splint +1 has a special place due to the high cost of plate armor and the uncertainty of how to repair items (last time a DM told us that mending would not work and expenditure of half the items cost is required to repair. Needless to say I was suddenly very worried about my non-magical splint mail against an encounter with grey oozes. And that would have "only" been 100gp in repairs (vs. 84gp each character earned in the adventure). Now with plate looking at 750gp in repairs a +1 splint suddenly looks very attractive (might change with higher level gp rewards, I don't know what PCs will earn in high level mods). I disagree with the argument of only putting in items that anybody can use vs. a magical rod or greatsword. This route there could never be plate +1 since only a few classes could use them. There simply will be adventures were the magic item reward is left in the dust since nobody wants/can use it. The HoB is not ideal due to the 20% self-destruct chance, not because it's also particularity loud
#35 Byakugan01 Apr 02, 2015 17:53:29	I gotta agree that the Horn of Blasting looks an awful lot like a cursed item. If i had one appear in my game, i would probably choose to read it as the 20% explosion chance only happening after the first use each day. That makes it a free roughly level 2-3 spell per day. With a pretty steep cost if you want to use it again. Reminiscant of the old school helm of brilliance which was a ticking time bomb.
#36 QwertyAzerty Apr 04, 2015 10:58:19	Byakugan01 wrote:
#37 ORC_Animus Apr 04, 2015 14:40:12	I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
(Reply to #36) Coredump00	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #38) QwertyAzerty	Coredump00 wrote:
#40 Mirtek Apr 05, 2015 19:26:59	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#41 Noon Apr 05, 2015 23:21:26	Disruptive player blows horn to be disruptive GM does not have guards come because it was done to be disruptive Disruptive player "Hey, where are the guards! You're breaking my immersion!" GM "Shut up"
#42 Skerrit Apr 06, 2015 8:00:48	Please Elder Elemental Eye, let this thread die. It has long since providing any useful discussion and is only a breeding ground for trolls and those who would like to feed them.
#43 MasterNamer Apr 06, 2015 8:06:11	Consumables don't count towards your magic item total.
(Reply to #39) Coredump00	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #42) Coredump00	Skerrit wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

QwertyAzerty

Mar 31, 2015 4:53:34

ok, WTF is that?

I though that in AL disruptive play was illegal, and here WotC come around and give the players a freaking horn of blasting, or like I prefer calling it horn of alarm.

That horn warn EVERYONE in a 600ft radius of your presence. hwo is THAT not disruptive play?

Yes I agree that in the hand of a GOOD players, that horn can be use in a SMART way (like if the enemy already saw us and already sent it army against the players or in a desert place with no ennemy within 600ft around.)

But let's take that DDEX where you go back in Phlan to save 3 very important NPC.

While walking in the street, the player who play DnD because it's fun he's not the most newbish player since he reach level 55 in adventure league, but he's not a veteran neither. Then we get attack by 5 black fist guard working for the evil dragon, and this new player, wanting to do good (he do not have the intention to disrupt the party, he saw my sorcerer cast a fireball and kill those guard before and he figures that his horn can do the same thing and he want to be usefull) tak ethe horn and freaking alert ALL THE GUARD IN PHLAN IN A 600FT RADIUS THAT WE ARE HERE.

gg, wave after wave of guard withering our ressoruce slowly but surely untill TPK (well my sorcerer survived, by going invisible and misty steping on the roof of an house, and now he's heading toward a welcomer safe house hoping to find shelter and safety untill the next group come in Phlan to retry this mission.

WTF was that Wizard? why are you putting disruptive item in the DDEX series? a series of advetnure that is only for Adventure League in public event. Public event wich by definition the player cannot control who's sitting at the table, unless the player as been deemed disruptive.

The horn of blasting is not only a bad item (20% chance to blow up in your face dealing a lot of damage,but I almost liek this part since once the horn explode your stupid caracter who wanted that horn might die, and even if your character don't die, then at least the horn is destroyed and you are still punished by still being forced to count that horn toward our permanent magic item that NO ONE will EVER trade)

And this player who caused the TPK is not even disruptive, he was feeling SUPER bad that he caused a TPK. So now you can imagine if that item goes in the hand of a disruptive players.

So when running Adventure League DDEX series, you can find item that are an interest to a very small portion of the character (headband of intellect will interest wizard who don't want to reach 20 Intellect ASAP and Eldritch knight/Arcane trickster who want to use many DC dependant spells) Item that can be replace by mundane item like a splintmail+1 can be replace by a mundane full plate, and now disruptive item like the horn of blasting, which can easily cause a TPK by sending waves and waves of monster.

Byakugan01

Mar 31, 2015 5:20:27

Is there a horn of blasting in season 1 or 2?

It isn't so much worse than a character casting Thunderwave or a few other spells that all say they can be heard 300 feet away.

The party where that happened was very dumb for not immediately doing a tactical retreat. Everybody Dashes for 2 rounds and you will be 120 feet away from where that big sound came from. In a city that is easily 2 blocks away and out of sight and sound of new enemies.

From my perspective it seems like the DM gave you time to try and escape because you say they kept coming in waves...Although to be fair, the DM should have asked pointedly 'ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THAT?' and informed them of the probable outcome.

Tell the Wizard he should have cast a rope trick and the party could have easily hidden for an hour till things calmed down(and took a nice comfortable short rest in the middle of the seige).

Players doing dumb things is certainly annoying, but it isn't really disruptive. It is kinda normal in organized play actually....

Coredump00

Mar 31, 2015 7:24:33

1) I have no idea how you came across the Horn in the first place. The only one I know of I am pretty sure you can't find intact.

2) Using an item in a poor manner is not the fault of the item, nor of WotC.

QwertyAzerty

Mar 31, 2015 7:29:28

Thunderwave at least you can have the excuse that it can be fun in a homebrew campaign where you play with other people that you choose. But yes I do have a problem with Thunderwave (and other alarm spell warning the entire dungeon about your location.

Even if you run away, considering that some of the player have no stealth (heavy armor fighter/cleric) and few player have escape option (I was able to misty step / invisibility, the rogue dash cunning action hide), druid can become a rat and just be an other rat in a ruins city, the monk can outrun anyone walk up the house jump over the street and just loose anyone silly enought to try to catch him, but the fighter, cleric, barbarian paladin of the group? they cannot run fast enought to loose anyone, they cannot hide so well to escape an army searching the area, they cannot cast spell allowing them to escape and they can still be track (technically the rogue too could be tracked) leaving only the misty step sorcerer and the druid a chance to escape and find a safe house.

At the table we had a rogue, but he didn't want to abandon the party, we had a cleric and a fighter in full plate, a barbarian (the player with the horn of blasting) and me the sorcerer who stay as long that i could, but when I saw the fight was lost misty step on the rook of a house, making any track attempt almost impossible, then invisibility. The player didn't mean to be disruptive and he felt super badly that he cause a TPK (technicaly not a TPK since I escape) but that player was having a lot of fun, he was super happy when he got the horn, and he was laughing until the DM sent the 4th waves of black guard and the cleric said that he was running out of spells. Now I fear he might not come back, we tried to tell him that it was no big deal and stuff like that happen, but that barbarian was his only characer level 5+, so now he need to find a table playing tier 1 stuff (we are a small store so we only play 1 table and rarely we'll get a second table) and since the other player are not interested in replaying the tier 1 adventures from season 1, he'll have to wait for when we'll start season 2.

We might start season 2 next week, depending on what the table want to do, but most of the other players do have an other character level 5 (one from LMoP who died for most of them) and one from all the DDEX1-X adventures. but that new player wasn't with us when we did LMoP, so he will have to wait untill season 2.

So because he got a stupid item that should be only in home game where if the character die you can create a new character lvl 5 and continue running with your friends, or you can start back from level 1 and still play with your friend level 5+ etc... but in AL this is not legal (could be possible, but wouldn't be legal and some of those rule lawyer player could complain and cause trouble. So this new player who was enjoying the table, the other players and the game, now have to wait untill we start season 2 and from what I heard DDEX2-3 and 4 are tier 2 adventure, so he'll be able to play DDEX2-1, DDEX2-2, then wait again untill we get to DDEX2-5.

QwertyAzerty

Mar 31, 2015 8:08:14

Coredump00 wrote:

MasterNamer

Mar 31, 2015 8:25:31

It sounds like your dm decided to tpk the party, not your friend who used the horn of blasting. You survived, so why weren't you able to go back and get the bodies to a cleric to preform raise dead? Why were all the guards in the city seconds away from your position?

QwertyAzerty

Mar 31, 2015 9:05:32

MasterNamer wrote:

(Reply to #7)

MasterNamer

QwertyAzerty wrote:

QwertyAzerty

Mar 31, 2015 10:24:48

how am I suppose to bring those corpse out of the city? I'm not strong enought to carry those body, and the other reason that I explained in the spoiler box (you might want ot delete the spoiler part of your quote otherwise it become meaningless to put them in a poisler box) The DM is not preventing us from ressurecting those caracter, they simply died in a position hard to do so, but if we bring a rescu team we might be able to get the bodys back (the DM allowed me to ask some citizen to bring my friend corpse out of the street hoping that a rescue team would arrive quickly.

Other module do offer permanent death that cannot be solve within AL rules

Show

the slaad from the Pyramide of the sorcerer isle, if they hit you and infect you with egg, if you don't get a "cure diseases" within a fw days, you need a wish to be revive, and godo luck to find a arcane spell caster level 17+ willing to cast Wish for you (specially this Wish would make the caster risk to permanently loose the usage of Wish, so the price will be steep)

#10

Nevvur

Mar 31, 2015 10:41:19

A player made a poor decision (using a loud magical item during a stealth mission), and the DM took extreme liberties in reacting to this decision, and this is somehow WotC's fault for including a "bad magic item."

....okay.

#11

QwertyAzerty

Mar 31, 2015 12:01:46

I agree the player didn't use the best tactical option, but what do you expect from new player who never took military strategie course? What do you expect from new player who try DnD because they taught it would be fun to play a game like World of Warcraft but without being limited to the game parameter, knowing that in World of Warcraft you can use anythign you want even in front of the monster, as long that you don't get too close to them they will watch you butcher there friend. So yes it's WotC fault for trying to get new player into there game and then giving them item that are difficult to use when a lot of better option existed.

Then no it's not the DM fault if he follow what is inside the module. We are stuck inside a city under the control of a tyrannic evil dragon and that dragon just got control of the city so he still need a lot of guard patroling the street to keep the town under control and to defeat any attempt to overthrow him. Would have been really wierd if the player woul dhave blow the horn making a lot of noise within 600ft radius, but no one come investigating what happen. The Dm was already very generous allowing the barbarian to rage, the clash of sword, fireballs expoding without alluring nearby guard from nearby street, but a 600ft alarm? go ahead tell me honestly that if you where DMing you would allow a 600ft alarm system without sending any guard to investigate. yes we tried to run away but like I said previously a fighter and a cleric in full plate is very hard to hide them from an army investigating (specially when that army find the bodies of there butchered charred dead friend on the ground, they should assume they died from natural causes and not call reinforcement?

oh let me guess, we were suppose to tell that new player to NOT use his horn... like NEVER (because in how many DDEX is there a 600ft radius free of monster wanting to kill you?) and he was stuck with that horn of blasting and he should leave it at home, it still count against his number of magical item so he's not allowed to get an other item untill we all have one, but he's not allowed to use it NEVER. (I did a post not long ago on why the developper are trying to trap the new player with bogus magical item and EVERYONE disagree with me that those item are super usefull and they are happy to find them)

Go ahead proove me wrong, please tell me in which DDEX does the horn of blasting could be usefull? do you thing this is worth a permanent magical item slot? do you thing the new player will be happy to gain an item that he can only use when the experienced player give him permission to do so, otherwise it will cause a TPK (for all intented purposes) Comparing the horn of blasting to:

the longbow +1 the archer got he uses it every attack he do in every combat in every module.

the cloak of Elven kind allowed the rogue to scout in impossible situation and pull some miracle outcomes,

the Ioun stone +1AC saved the monk life many, many time, stacking on his unarmored defense.

The ring of evasion saved teh fighter life against those breath weapon from the dragons, allowing him to automatically succeed on a dexterity check even if he got 8 dex and no profiencies.

And here little Jonnhy with his horn of blasting that everytime he use will alarm EVERYONE within 600ft and got 20% chance to explose in his face, both could possibly result in a TPK (specially if they both happen at the same time)

Because of the 20% chance to explose you'll use the horn when you REALLY need it, you won't waste it against 4 Kobolds since as a barbarian level 5 he can kill 2 with his action, then with great weapon master kill an other with his bonus action, and when the 4th one try to run away he kill him with his reaction. He's going to use it when we coul duse a big AoE dealing big damage, when we are already in trouble, and here come more toruble coming and BOOM the horn explose in the barbarian face etc....

Thank you WotC for this great item that saved the life of many, many... black fist at the service of the evil green dragon in Phlan. I would have hate receiving a cape of the mountebank allowing me to use dimension door once per day and there for helping my party by moving myself and one party member (the one with the less mobility) by reaching a hard to reach places. I would despise receiving a wand of war magic giving a bonus to the ranged spell attack roll to the scorching rays of the sorcerer.

Please WotC can you give us a Rod of the Pact Keeper in the next module, the ranger wolf need a stick to play go fetch, since we have no warlock in our group (and I'm sure many group have no warlock, considering the standard group is 4 player big, and there is 12 available classes. Or please, please, can you give us a sentient weapon that will add 10d6 force damage, and will have 20 charges to be able to cast stoneskin, bless, and banishement smite and the sword itself is able to maintain 3 concentration spell, the drawback is the sentient weeapon personality. The personallity of this sentient weapon will be: he want to kill ALL divine caster without any distinction, even other PC playing divine caster (the divine caster for the sentient weapon purpose are Cleric, Paladin, Druid, Ranger) this weapon would be SOOO fun when the new player take it and start attacking the party cleric, and the rest of the party is looking at him saying, sorry dude we are in Adventure League so we cannot stop him from killing you since this would be consider PvP.

#12

Nevvur

Mar 31, 2015 13:15:12

QwertyAzerty wrote:

#13

Ainulindalion

Mar 31, 2015 13:14:56

Phlan, by the map, is approximately 1.6 million square feet (using the approximation of an ellipse 2000 feet in the long dimension and 1000 feet in the short).

The Horn of Blasting's sound radius covers half the city.

If the population is 10,000 souls, that gives them 160 sq feet each. That's roughly 6 squares (which is pretty damn small space per person).

Assume 5% or 1 in 20 (which is really high at more than 10x the percentage of police to citizens in NYC) were members of the black fists prior to the arrival of the green dragon. That's 500.

Most (but not all) join the Tears. Many are killed in the fighting. Assume 300 Tears remain in the city. Assume twice that many cultists, and round it to 1000 total.

Figure no more than 300 on patrol at any given time, with a standard patrol of 5. That's 60 patrols. Each patrol is covering 26.7 thousand square feet (or a circle with a radius of 92 square feet).

That puts patrols, on average, 180 feet apart at any time. That is three full rounds of movement to arrive at the location of another patrol.

Assuming easy, straight paths, 18 seconds after firing off the horn of blasting or doing anything that might even sound a little like combat, 8 patrols arrive.

Oh, but wait.... assuming these patrols have light crossbows (fairly standard guard material), they are in range AFTER THE FIRST ROUND OF MOVEMENT. That's 40 attacks every round from here on out, minus any that the party manages to kill. Assuming the guards need a 13 or higher to hit party members, 40% of those attacks hit, with 2 being crits. A light crossbow on a guard is going to do an average of 6.5 damage. That's 88 damage to the party PER ROUND. That's two dead party members, more than likely. Your party lasts 3 rounds if you're very lucky, maybe 6 rounds (by which point more guards will definitely arrive), if the dice are falling the player's favor.

Alternatively put, any combat in the streets of occupied Phlan is going to result in a TPK if the DM is bothering with realism. The Horn of Blasting has nothing to do with it - it's merely an excuse.

#14

CahPahkah

Mar 31, 2015 13:16:21

I'm not sure why you're so hellbent on complaining about WotC and the AL and making excuses for everyone at the table, but have at it, I guess.

But the problem in your situation isn't the horn.

#15

Nevvur

Mar 31, 2015 13:18:01

lol, Ainulindalion, we have pretty vastly different opinions on the enemy presence in Phlan. Just goes to show that DMs have a lot of wiggle room to adjust encounters.

(Reply to #15)

Ainulindalion

Nevvur wrote:

#17

Coredump00

Mar 31, 2015 14:01:31

1) On a stealth mission solidly behind enemy lines, a player decides to use a Horn of Blasting.

2) Player was encouraged because *other* players thought it made sense to use spells like Fireball on a stealth mission behind enemy lines

3) No other PC (when they see him pulll out the horn) thought to say "Hey, that will make a lot of noise; do you want to rethink that?"

4) The DM never thought to say "You can do that, but recall it makes a whole lot of noise"

5) All of the players decided to not even *try* to run away or hide, or run into an empty building, or.... do anything except wait for the blackfists

6) Somehow every blackfist patrol knew exactly where the epicenter of the noise was, and could run straight there. (Luckily for the BFs, the PCs stayed at the epicenter)

7) There was apparently at least one patrol just 6 seconds away.

8) There was apparenlty several patrols just 20-30 seconds away

9) No one considered or attempted to try a fighting retreat

10) No one tried to create a diversion or distraction to get patrols to go elsewhere

I just don't get how you try and blame WotC for this.

Oh, and quite harshing on the Headband.... my PC *loves* his headband, and hand to outroll 3 other people that also wanted it.

And if you don't want the Horn of Blasting... no one is forcing you to *take* the horn of blasting.

#18

QwertyAzerty

Apr 01, 2015 5:03:20

Like I already said the DM was already very generous to allow us to fight in the street without sending the army against us, the horn was teh drop that overflow the glass.

Then every citizen who stayed in Phlan are staying in there home and rarely go out and when they do they do it quickly and stealtfully going from house to house, never staying in the street for very long. So yes when the guard hears a horn getting blast it will cause an alert, the regular respond of : "oh it's just the fog horn of the boat inthe port" is not legitimate since THERE IS NO BOAT DOCKING AT NIGHT IN A EVIL CITY NEWLY UNDER THE CONTROL OF A GREEN DRAGON, still fighting the rebels and reinforcing his control on the city.

If you are smart enought to remember all the detail of your item and to realized in time the consequences of everything, while you are having fun player a fun game, then gratz for you, I guess this new player is too dumbto play DnD, from now on we'll ask to every new participant to do an exam about how to play DnD and adventurer tactics and if they fail we'll politly tell them they are too stupid to play with us.

Then YES it's WotC fault, and it's there fault I'll let you choose why:

-They allow new player without Adventure tactic experience (from DIFFICULT video game (World of Warcraft not included) to play. (I do not believe this is the reason, I do believe the DDEX are easy enought so new player can learn how to play trought them, and as a company they need to bring new player to their game in order to make money and keep giving us new games)

-They are the one who put an magical item in the modules that is obviously an offensive item but that cannot be use in enemy territory, They could just as easily put any other easy to use magical item (cape of mountebank, helm of teleportation, boot of speed etc... that would allow him to use a cool new item without causing a TPK

- They wrote an adventure inside enemy territory where it's logical to expect that if you do a 600ft alarm you'll get in trouble (I do not believe this si the reason neither, since making an adventure that would without any enemies sound like boring, DnD is based on 3 pillar, Social, Exploration and COMBAT, and in order to please all 3 pillars you need enemies to fight and that fight need to be dangerous otherwise we are missing the challenge aspect.

So how do we fix the problem, we tell this new player that his banned for using a item at the wrong moment so being diruptive? if so where is the line? when does a mistake become disruptive?

- Does the Fighter running in combat and positioning himself in a manner that prevent the sorcerer from casting fireball can be consider disruptive too?

- Does the cleric not healing the fighter when the fighter request it can be consider disruptive?

- The rogue wanting to stay with the party to help the party fighitng instead of running away and distracting the next wave is disruptive?

- The sorcerer keeping 2 spell level 2 available so he can cast misty step / invisibility to escape bad situation is this consider disruptive?

The DM giving us a chance to fight but still giving us a consequance when a HORN of blasting is used is disruptive?

ok they I guess the entire table should be banned from AL.... or we can blame WotC who put stupid horn of blasting in an adventure they wrote so new player new to the game/genre can experience the game. They could have put any other rare magical item without causing any problem, but no, the horn of blasting was such a great idea, to put an item that should NEVER be used in an adventure that bring you in enemy territory, this is probably the most fun item that could have be put in the previous module, giving the player a weapon of dragon slaying, or a censer of X elemental summoning would have been so boring, no I agree with WotC a horn of blasting, the item that alert the entire dungeon is way more fun...

#19

QwertyAzerty

Apr 01, 2015 7:22:07

Sorry Skerrit, I admit this might have want out of hand and I got emotionally involve in it, but my initial concern is geniouine and not a troll attempt.

I am concern about the type of magical item WotC are putting in there module.

- Item that can be effectively use by a limited amount of people (like a headband of intellect, even if it can be used by a paladin, it not what I would call effectively used by him)

- Item who can be use to cause grief to the group (on purpose or by accident) like a horn of blasting able to alert the ennemy

- Item who can offer little more then a mundane item.

Yes I know that the group is not force to take the item and it's totally fine to leave the item behind (but then we loose the magical item reward of that module. and me as an experience player I know to not take the horn of blasting, because in 90% of the case it won't be useable since in most dungeon type adventure, alerting everyone within 600ft is dangerous,

- but this will not stop the ne wplayer to take that magical item who he believe is so cool beccause he don't see the consequences, all that he see is 30ft cone dealing 5d6 damage to everyone, and he might not understand the little subtelity of the rule where even once teh horn explose in his face, it's still count against his permanent magical item count and unless the entire table agrees (which in public game can be very difficult to obtain) he will have to wait for everyone to have the same amount of magical item as he does, and forever he will have to carry a useless broken horn of blasting.

- This will neither stop those griefer (lucky we don't have those at my table, but I've play enought MMO to know that there is greifer who get pleasure out of pissing of other player, and even in Adventure League, those players that I see wanting to create a character who flaw is: No matter what I kill all [insert description here] on sight, even if my party disragree and want to capture him alive), yes such a character could be simply dismiss by the DM using the ruling that you must create a character that will HELP the party and create an enjoyable experience for the other player. Those griefer will be more then happy to take that horn (withou even rolling since all the experience player decided to leave it there) and then use it at the worse moment (since no rule in Adventure League prevent you from using a magical item that you acquire legitimatly).

I know magical item are optional and technically your character could reach level 20 without a single magical item and still be usefull and relevant doing the official release material for Adventure League. But on the "fun aspect" many player (specially those coming from Video game) love to receive new magical item (just look at all the frustration people go throught to create raid group to get some purple item in those MMORPG game, and all the drama that occur when someone "ninja loot" something or when the raid leader give the rare legendary item to the other rogue .... and even if you are not one of those player who don't care if you going to receive a new item, a lot of player do care about receiving this new item.
I would propose that for those players (those who care about magic item and who enjoy receiving a new magical item and who are all excited for new week when he can try it), running an adventure and learning at the end that the magic item is useless (a rod of the pact keeper in a group without warlock, or a splintmail+1 when the heavy armor users already have a mundane full plate or a permenant magic item (like a horn of blasting) that can never be used because it alert everyone in a 600ft radius and when you use it there is a 20% chance to destroy the item, but it still count toward your permanent magic item count.

I also propose that by simply offering "smarter" item choice in the DDEX module you could easily increase the fun aspect for those player who enjoy receiving new magical item, without affecting the fun of thsoe player who don't care about magical item. and for the griefer who enjoy receiving an item that would allow them to cause grief to the party (like sounding a horn of blasting in the middle of enemy territory) and if the consequence of increasing the fun of a certain type of player, decrease the fun of griefer and might encourage them to leave the table, then good riddance.

By smarter item choice I'm not saying that every magical armor need to be studded leather, half plate or full palte, I'm not saying to only give Best in Slot items. A dragon scale mail can be a great magical item, yes a mundan full plate offer more AC, but the dragon scale mail offer elemental resistance. Instead of a horn of blasting, give a necklace of fireball.

When you want to give a very specialized item liek a heavy armor, or a rod of teh pact keeper, maybe it could be an idea to offer the choice between 2 or 3 different magical item, and the player choose which item he want, so for example, NPC A ask the player to do a quest for him, and if they succeed in the quest, they will be able to choose one item between those 3 item: Rod of the pact keeper, Cape of Montebank or greatsword of X. 2 very specialized chocie that few character can use, and if none of those class are present, then a general item that would please pretty much anyone (the cape of mountebank)

Or even go back to previous magical item from LFR (I believe it was there) where each adventure would give 1 magical item to every player and the player could choose between a list and if 2 player wanted the same item they could both that the same item, but I understand that this would bring way too many magical item and would unbalance the math since "technically" the math have been done considering that the player had no magical items. So to reduce the amoutn of magical item, somethign simple like, all magical item found in an adventure need to be given back to the faction and using faction token you can buy a magical item. This is a quick idea without much details, but I can easily imagine:

For every renown point you gain, you also obtain 1 token, then for the price of 3 token for an uncommon item, 7 token for a rare, 12 for a very rare, 15 for a legendary item choosen from a list available in the season Adventuire league player companion (and that list could be restricted to that season, or could be added to the previous season, meanign that factions store would grow each season, the list could change completly, slightly and not change at all between the faction etc...). Then to avoid player to horde there token in order to buy legendary item, you need to be rank 2 to buy an uncommon item, rank 3 for a rare item, rank 4 for very rare item and rank 5 for legendary item, since the faction won't allow anyone to use there precious magical item.

For player without a faction, a underground market working in a similar fashion? the sponsor HQ? like I said I'm not taking time to think about this is just a quick idea I'm throwing out there, trying to solve many problem I can see on the forum (player complaining that the current system is unfair, since people can abuse the system, corrup tthe DM to optain a particular item, etc...

And remember caracter are limited to 3 attuned item (yes you can own more, but can attuned only 3 at a time) so the rule are already in place to avoid players from gathering 10 powerful magical item and overpowering the other players. With the attunement mechanic this encourage player to limit themself to 3 powerful items, a potion (anymore would be dangerous since they can sometime react strangely to each other, but I don't know if this is enforced in AL) and some small effect item that do not require attunement.

#20

Skerrit

Apr 01, 2015 7:46:54

The Admins do not pick the items, but rather HQ does (as they print the certs). Nothing can be changed about the items currently in the campaign as they are already out there. I also strongly disagree that many of the items on your list are useless or subpar. I do not believe there is anyway to remedy your bad experience as it has already occurred.

Greg Marks

DnDAL Associate Resource Manager

#21

QwertyAzerty

Apr 01, 2015 7:56:16

Skerrit wrote:

#22

Kalani

Apr 01, 2015 8:16:58

Sure.... but there is one major difference between the two.

Magic vs. mundane.

Magic items are far less vulnerable to damage than mundane items. Without spoiling anything, this is a potential issue in Princes of the Apocalypse wherein at least one monster has the ability to instantaneously destroy mundane items it comes in contact with.

#23

Coredump00

Apr 01, 2015 9:04:02

Dude, the reason you come across as a troll is because you rant and rant and rant.... but seem to have no desire to have a conversation. You will occasionally pick out a word or two from a response, but only to use them for another looonngg rant.

You completely disregard other people's opinions and assume only your opinion represents 'reality'.

My Paladin was offered a magic item that gave him a +5 on 5 different skills, but *you* say its worthless and *you* think it should never be offered.... sorry bud but my Paladin will take that headband over a +1 Battle axe without a second thought.

I *like* a world where magic items are not always the ideal item you could think of.... I *like* a world where some magic has drawbacks or limitations... I *like* a world where some magic items are not or everyone. If you don't like that item. Don't. Take. That. Item. I don't need the magic items to come with training wheels....

My ranger would likely never take the Horn... its unlikely but my Paladin might... my Warlock/Wizard.... oh boy could he have fun with that. And my Paladin would be happy with the Tankard. (Another 'worthless' magic item....i guess)

But yes, I *do* blame your DM. He set up a situation where the guards were so far away that they could not hear combat and so far away they could not hear a fireball..... but then were so close you guys had no chance to run away.... wut??

And then it turns out that the nearby area is *chock full* of patrols.... wut??

And what about you...?? When you saw him pull out the Horn, how come *YOU* didn't bother to say anything??

This was a stealth mission, behind enemy lines... yet none of you (nor the DM) were treating it as such. Then when the 'new guy' followed your example, you decide to blame WotC..... ummm... okay.

#24

QwertyAzerty

Apr 01, 2015 11:31:25

Ok, I might be wrong on some item and if *you* are happy to have a paladin using a headband of Intellect, and *you* won't mind when a holy avenger drop, then a full plate+2 giving it's wearer the elemental adept (radiant) feat and a Cloak of Charisma forcing your character to choose only 3 item to be attune too or if *you* don't mind the fighter taking that holy avenger because he have 1 less magical item then you then it's cool for *you*. and I'm sure other player think like *you* but I'm sure other player think like me and other players have a 3rd different point of view.

Then yes I might become a little hard headed when people attack my table, the kids is a new player he doesn't know everything yet, and when he play he does't always think about all the consequences that will happen, and when I saw his face when the DM killed the last player (and that I ran away) and when he started to say sorry to everyone, and that he was wondering if he could still play with us next week, even if he doesn't have a character level 5 anymore. it kind of hurt me, I was having fun mentoring him (both out of game, teaching him how to play and in game, my sorcerer was giving him advice on tactics and strategies).

Then the other people accusing the DM who do great job he put a lot of time in preping those game, and will be very leniant to like preventing nearby patrol to hear us fight when using fireball and the barbarian raging exactly to avoid a TPK, but he doesn't want us to get lazy and believe that we'll never die, and that we can safetly do anything, so if someone blow a horn of blasting there will be consequences.

Then yes I could have told him to NOT use the horn, then I could tell him that he should attack monster A instead of monster B, thinking about it, I might as well just take his character sheet and play 2 characters and let him watch? At our table we decided that if we cannto communicate in game, we cannot communicate out of caracter. So if my sorcerer if not looking in the barbarian direction and he's busy fighting an other ennemy, then I don't see the barbarian pulling the horn and yell at him to not use it. This is how we create immersion at our table, and player seem to appreciate it and at the same time it prevent the experimented player from controlling the character of the less experimented players, if the barbarian fight side by side to the fighter, then the fighter can tell him to take that monster, but for the sorcerer to tell something for the barbarian it would be harder since he's farter behind.

Then yes we would have love to run away from the epicenter, but after the horn was blown, we still had to finish the group of black fist, requiring 2 rounds (12 second), then we started to hear the other guard approaching so we try to run but the fighter and cleric failled their stealth roll (since they are both in heavy armor and have low Dex) so the guard were able to follow us no matter where we want, and the more we run randomly in the street, the more we have chance to attract other patrol, and any patrol seeing the patrol already runnign after us will join them., so maybe if we would have stay at the epicenter we could ahve survive, but because we ran additional patrol got added. The rogue was able to distract some of those patrol, but once those patrol check teh trash and don't see anything, they'll join the other patrol on the chase. The DM did this not because he wanted to TPK us, he did that because that is want seem logic when you infiltrate a city under ennemy control where normal citizen very rarely go out.

If I seem inflexible is because the entire community are only repeating the SAME argument, and that argument do not make any sense. For example I receive the arguement that some guard won't go investigate the sound of a horn in a city where the Evil Green dragon is still fighting rebels to seize complet control, then I got people saying: "bah there is very few guard in that town"... "the guard are too busy drinking to respond to a horn blowing"... "the guard believe someone else will take care of it"... yeah I'm sure the evil green dragon will understand that the guard was too busy drinking on the job or believe it was someone else business so he didn't join the fight and no opportunistic citizens joined the rank of the guard, bolstering the black fist numbers, hoping to survive and be able to put food on his family table.. Those guard are not greedy to the point of wanting to take the gold and items from those invader, and they are is no way that those guard want to be able to bring the head of those pesky adventurer slowing down the dragon cult activity in the region hoping for a promotion?

Or an other argument: you could have done this instead, or you should have done this, Well who said we didn't try to run away? it just failed because our party got heavy armor user.

Or you ask us to metagame and prevent a player from using his magical item, then this proove my point that this item is pointless if your not suppose to use it in enemy territory (since by definition, most DDEX adventure should happen in ennemy territory. In most DDEX there will be some ennemy wanting to kill you if they learn of your location.

#25

Ainulindalion

Apr 01, 2015 11:59:25

The Horn isn't useless. It does exactly what it says it does.

Sure, there's a risk associated with using it.

Sure, it makes noise audible for 600 feet.

1: 600 feet isn't really that far. Phlan is just really tiny.

2: Inside, just because the sound can travel 600 feet doesn't mean that it necessarily will. Walls and such could prevent the sound from traveling. Hallways and corridors could warp the sound and make it impossible to determine where it came from. Outside, rain or snow could dampen the sound. A storm could cover up the sound. Mass combat could make the sound unimportant.

3: The Horn is no different in this situation than your bard, druid, sorc, or wizard casting Thunderwave, other than the radius is a bit higher. Hopefully, you plotted out a strategy ahead of time and agreed on NOT DOING THINGS that alert the enemy.

If you've got a new player, and they forget the feature of the magic item, you should certainly, either as the DM or another player, remind them of it BECAUSE THEIR CHARACTER WON'T HAVE FORGOTTEN (more than likely). Your 'we don't speak about things our characters can't realistically effect because of immersion' is an excuse to hang people out to dry because they forgot something. You don't have to run their character, but you can certainly remind them of a rules option or effect that their character would know. If you're choosing not to play this way, that isn't the fault of WotC.

The fact that WotC isn't putting in magic items that fit your idea of character optimization isn't the fault of WotC.

The entire point of Adventurer's League is for WotC to increase the player base and expose people to elements of D&D that they might not have seen before. The point of having 4 to 8 players at the table to make sure that no one forgets anything that ends up being important. You're supposed to work together.

#26

Skerrit

Apr 01, 2015 12:10:52

I will go back to my original suggestion that we should just leave this thread to die, as there is no way to fix the occurance that already happened.

#27

QwertyAzerty

Apr 01, 2015 12:17:52

Ainulindalion wrote:

(Reply to #27)

Ainulindalion

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #27)

Coredump00

QwertyAzerty wrote:

#30

DemoMonkey

Apr 01, 2015 14:45:57

After the third wave of guards with more on the way and no way to escape, did your group consider surrendering?

And if not, why not?

#31

Oraibi

Apr 02, 2015 3:25:40

This is a truly ridiculous thread.

The only thing I got out of it is the location of the horn of blasting. Thanks for that!

#32

QwertyAzerty

Apr 02, 2015 4:38:08

Coredump00 wrote:

#33

QwertyAzerty

Apr 02, 2015 4:44:36

DemoMonkey wrote:

#34

Mirtek

Apr 02, 2015 11:56:29

While I agree that a HoB is a bad item due to the particularities of AL's item distribution system (20% chance you increased your permanent item count for flat out nothing in return and even after that it's a semi-consumable/semi-permanet item), it's not the fault of Wotc or AL when someone uses an item without reading what it does or without applying what the item does to the situation at hand.

The DM might be to blame a little bit because he already allowed very loud stuff to happen, which could have lulled the players into a false sense of security with regards to acceptable noise. I also think he overestimated how many guards can be at duty at the same time.

One could argue about things like leather armor +1, but I think splint +1 has a special place due to the high cost of plate armor and the uncertainty of how to repair items (last time a DM told us that mending would not work and expenditure of half the items cost is required to repair. Needless to say I was suddenly very worried about my non-magical splint mail against an encounter with grey oozes. And that would have "only" been 100gp in repairs (vs. 84gp each character earned in the adventure). Now with plate looking at 750gp in repairs a +1 splint suddenly looks very attractive (might change with higher level gp rewards, I don't know what PCs will earn in high level mods).

I disagree with the argument of only putting in items that anybody can use vs. a magical rod or greatsword. This route there could never be plate +1 since only a few classes could use them. There simply will be adventures were the magic item reward is left in the dust since nobody wants/can use it.

The HoB is not ideal due to the 20% self-destruct chance, not because it's also particularity loud

#35

Byakugan01

Apr 02, 2015 17:53:29

I gotta agree that the Horn of Blasting looks an awful lot like a cursed item.

If i had one appear in my game, i would probably choose to read it as the 20% explosion chance only happening after the first use each day.

That makes it a free roughly level 2-3 spell per day. With a pretty steep cost if you want to use it again.

Reminiscant of the old school helm of brilliance which was a ticking time bomb.

#36

QwertyAzerty

Apr 04, 2015 10:58:19

Byakugan01 wrote:

#37

ORC_Animus

Apr 04, 2015 14:40:12

I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct

Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.

If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.

(Reply to #36)

Coredump00

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #38)

QwertyAzerty

Coredump00 wrote:

#40

Mirtek

Apr 05, 2015 19:26:59

QwertyAzerty wrote:

#41

Noon

Apr 05, 2015 23:21:26

Disruptive player blows horn to be disruptive

GM does not have guards come because it was done to be disruptive

Disruptive player "Hey, where are the guards! You're breaking my immersion!"

GM "Shut up"

#42

Skerrit

Apr 06, 2015 8:00:48

Please Elder Elemental Eye, let this thread die. It has long since providing any useful discussion and is only a breeding ground for trolls and those who would like to feed them.

#43

MasterNamer

Apr 06, 2015 8:06:11

Consumables don't count towards your magic item total.

(Reply to #39)

Coredump00

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #42)

Coredump00

Skerrit wrote: