One of the players has attended 3 of the last 3 weeks, and is playing a variant-human paladin, LE, a member of the Zhentarim faction. This is within AL rules, and the player is not disruptive; he runs his PC as a contributing team member, and in fact he's the party healer, by healing kit and by Lay On Hands.
I am fully on board with the 5E de-coupling of class abilities and alignments, and also the end of limits on what race and what alignment can be what class. Even so, I am a bit baffled. When this paladin uses Divine Sense, and detects a shrine to Bane, it feels evil; does the evil feel... familiar and comfortable?
As per AL rules, he's starting at level 1. When he reaches level 3, I anticipate a conversation about what oath the PC might swear. Vengeance seems the most LE-compatible to me.
It depends on how the player is roleplaying the combination of class and alignment, if he is at all. Yes, a paladin can now be evil in 5th edition, though the PHB says they are rare, and while the book is vague on this combination, it sounds to me like the paladin would still be following a god of Good and striving to fulfill his oath to his deity and eventually becoming Good himself. the PHB also recommends a player of a paladin should read ahead on the oaths before reaching 3rd level and have one in mind to choose to roleplay toward at 1st and 2nd level.
Riley37 wrote:
As the player of a lawful evil paladin myself, I have to say that I appreciate it when my DMs tell me "that shine up ahead? it feels like home" or something similar. Being "evil" does not mean that everything is alienation or even chaotic, kill-all-the-things -- sometimes being habitually selfish, local destructive, or driven by greed can constitute that same feel/ alignment. We can smell our own, after all!
Good attracts good, and vice versa. Identifying the opposite should feel like anathema, and identifying the same should feel like a welcoming sensation (to me, at any rate).
As for oath... any of them, as long as the player wants to RP that oath. Vengeance makes the most sense in the traditional view of the theme, but devotion would certainly work. Ancients would be a stretch but I can imagine it being worked to great effect if the player is a storyteller and tweaks his spell descriptions to fit the old gods (so, like a warlock-y paladin).
Paladins are the paragons of faith, after all!
I also am a member of the 'running a Lawful Evil paladin in Adventurers League' club, though my paladin is a member of the Lords' Alliance rather than the Zhentarim.
I agree that a LE Vengeance paladin makes the most sense (it's what I'm running), but I can also see where a LE Devotion paladin could work -- as long as the paladin is devoted to something normally considered 'evil'. Example: Redcloak from Order of the Stick (though he's a cleric rather than a paladin); when it comes to the goblin race, he's pretty clearly Devoted.
This would also lead to some interesting RP situations that not every player might be prepared enough (or skilled enough in RP) to handle; a LE dragonborn Devotion paladin whose party discovers a group of kobolds working for the Cult of the Dragon but not really committed to them? (I can think of at least two explicit examples of such an encounter during Horde of the Dragon Queen alone, and the penultimate encounter of DDEX 1-5 takes on a whole new possible outcome with such a paladin in the group.)
--
Pauper
My first AL character last season was/is a LE DEXadin of Tiamat, who absolutely detests the cult of the dragon. If you search Taevyn on this site it should take you to the thread about her, which has some good ideas on how to roleplay an evil character without being a disruptive jerk.
I tend to work backwards when creating an evil character - and ask myself the following question:
- What motivates the party?
- How can I twist those motivations into their evil counterpart?
In S1, the motivation was pursuing the cult of the dragon. I twisted my characters motivations, to be that she pursues them - not out of kindness or compassion, but cold-blooded vengeance. She believed they were manipulating her Dark Majesty toward unknown ends and sought to do her harm. She also had a major vendetta against the cult for all of Tiamat's children they had corrupted and transformed into undead abominations (Dracoliches) over the centuries.
I played the character briefly in Hoard, but mostly in Phlan - and took every opportunity to inform those she rescued that it was by the grace of Tiamat that they were spared (in the hope that she could recruit worshipers to the faith, and eventually establish a temple).
I can see a LE paladin of vengenance (Taevyn is perfect example)
I can't see a LE devotion or ancients paladin. The devotion oath demands that you "Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm". The ancients oath "emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos".
Now, I suppose you could play as an evil character whose actions are nevertheless good so as to fulfill her sworn oath.
What is an AL DM supposed to do if a player unrepentingly violates their oath?
Stormborn20 wrote:
I'm playing a Paladin of the Ancients, re-fluffed for an oath to Civilization rather than Nature. (For example, my Channel Divinity that restrains its target generates a straitjacket or handcuffs instead of brambles.) My alignment wobbles between LN and NG. Ignoring the Oath text, nothing would stop me from playing an LE character. In such a case, think of an Imperialist planning to Colonize the 'savage natives' ... kind of like Amn and the Moonshae Islands in 4e FRCS, come to think of it.
I've been working up some Principles of Civilization that can serve as my Oath; alas that it is easier to find 'negative principles':
I oppose the Sith 'Rule of Inferiors' (which enshrines slavery and hereditary castes), but have not been able to find a shorthand positive expression of the point.
I am for the Protestant Work Ethic, which I still need to boil down into something less than a full page of very tiny print.
For a different flavor, I got this from a thread pukunui started:
Bill and Ted's
Oath of the Ancients Paladin
"I do solemnly swear..."
- Be kind, yo, and fight against sadness.
- Find places where people are cool dudes and shield them from the bogus ones.
- Keep real chill and awesome. Can't spread coolness without being cool yourself, dude.
- Inspire others to be real cool and chill and thus spread the coolness.
Whilst I respect Kalani's view on Paladins Ive always felt that Gods were far more.. active in a setting than most D&D settings. They appear in 'person', in visions, in signs. They let their pleasure and displeasure be known. When as someone stated the Paragon of their Fath does the wrong thing, they .. should lose their powers. Sure its a difficult thing for a DM to adjudicate, but Playing a Paladin isnt supposed to be easy. You are living the ideals set out by a God, which are night impossible to completely follow all the time.
However it also segues into the issue with Organised Play. As I see it, you can really only penalise the Paladin within the game a particular gm is running. Its never really worked when its spread between multiple different dms. Im not advocating here minor transgression but rather major ones.
Lets take the Paladin of Bane. Bane is the God of Tyranny.
So lets define it:
cruel and unfair treatment by people with power over others
: a government in which all power belongs to one person : the rule or authority of a tyrant
Focusing on the first definition, we see that this would have to come from a Lawful society. Rules would be needed to define what power is, who has that power, and most likely ways to exclude others from gaining power. If a Paladin of Bane didnt help Societies with such a view keep that status quo going, then Id have serious reservations about them gaining their abilites from Bane.
Id actually love to see this Paladin of Bane in action to see how he approaches things and what he does right or wrongly.
Except for the fact that 5E paladins no longer gain their powers from their deity - they gain them from their oaths/conviction. 5E paladins are not required to select a deity in AL (unlike clerics and acolytes) which further reinforces this fact. Even clerics cannot have their powers revoked in this setting - DMs are not empowered to screw the players characters in any way (remove items, powers, etc).
The most the DM could do (and this would be pushing it almost to breaking point) would be to prohibit the character from casting spells. Even then I am not sure this would be allowed. While the DM can exclude the use of questionable items, log entries, XP, rolled stats (asking the player to use a standard array) etc - removing basic powers from the character does not fall under the realms of anything relating to a log entry or error on the character sheet.
I think that would be pushing it well beyond the breaking point.
Kalani wrote:
Paladin
- P82 (Paladin): Whether sworn before a god’s altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin’s oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.
- P82 (Cause of Righteousness): Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work.
- P83 (Creating a Paladin): The most important aspect o f a paladin character is the nature of his or her holy quest.
Are you a devoted servant of good, loyal to the gods o f justice and honor, a holy knight in shining armor venturing forth to smite evil? A re you a glorious champion of the light, cherishing everything beautiful that stands against the shadow, a knight whose oath descends from traditions older than many of the gods? Or are you an embittered loner sworn to take vengeance on those who have done great evil, sent as an angel of death by the gods or driven by your need for revenge?
Your oath and alignment might be in harmony, or your oath might represent standards of behavior that you have not yet attained. -
P84 (Spellcasting ability): Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your paladin spells, since their power derives from the strength of your convictions.
As you can see. There is no specific requirement for paladins to worship a deity in the PHB. In fact, other than a brief mention of the specific deities favored by paladins, no real link to a deity is stated - all of their power comes from their conviction, and their oath.
Compare this with a cleric.
Cleric
- P56 (Cleric): Clerics are intermediaries between the mortal world and the distant planes o f the gods. As varied as the gods they serve, clerics strive to embody the handiwork of their deities.
- P56 (Divine Agents): When a cleric takes up an adventuring life, it is usually because his or her god demands it.
Most adventuring clerics maintain some connection to established temples and orders of their faiths. - P57 (Creating a Cleric): As you create a cleric, the most important question to consider is which deity to serve and what principles you want your character to embody.
- P58 (Spellcasting Ability): Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity.
Not even a clerics power comes directly from their god - it comes from their devotion to their god.
Choose a Class (ALPG p3)
- Deities. D&D Adventurers League storylines are set in the Forgotten Realms, and as such, people worship the deities of that world. If you would like your character to worship a deity, you can choose one from the list of Forgotten Realms or nonhuman deities presented in appendix B of the Player’s Handbook or the D&D Basic Rules. Clerics and characters with the Acolyte background must choose a deity from that list.
In respect to losing their powers, the PHB states the following.
Breaking your Oath (PHB p86)A paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous paladin is fallible. Sometimes the right path proves too demanding, sometimes a situation calls for the lesser of two evils, and sometimes the heat of emotion causes a paladin to transgress his or her oath. A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. The paladin might spend an allnight vigil in prayer as a sign of penitence, or undertake a fast or similar act of self-denial. After a rite o f confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh.
If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no sign of repentance, the consequences can be more serious. At the DM's discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to abandon this class and adopt another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option that appears in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
Ignoring all of the references to Holy and Divine doesn't mean they don't exist. Yes they make and have an oath, that doesn't mean there is no Divine relationship. The best you can claim is that it may be possible to have a Paladin that does not have any relation to the divine, but just because it may be possible, doesn't mean it is the default.
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
The question in the OP was "When this paladin uses Divine Sense, and detects a shrine to Bane, it feels evil; does the evil feel... familiar and comfortable?"
There's been at least one good answer to that question! (Thanks, warfteiner!)
The OP was not "Is the writing of the Paladin class in the PHB consistent, across the board, with the option to play paladins of any alignment." That's a fair question, and perhaps a good one, but it's not an AL-specific question. The answer is obvious: no, the authors didn't write consistently. If paladins "hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk", and a paladin can be LE, then does she hunt herself, sort of like a mystical autoimmune disease?
If I understand correctly, the person who can "allow" the DM to impose consequences, as needed, is the AL host (in this case, the FLGS), then the AL local coordinator, the regional, and so forth, going up to Robert Adducci. Not so?
At most, I might allow a DM to enforce the penalties in the Breaking your Oath sidebar for the duration of a single session - but that would be the absolute limit - and it would only be warranted in a case of someone who is unrepentant, and flagrantly violates their oath (essentially flipping the bird to their tennants, repeatedly, and without shame or guilt).
Kalani wrote:
Stormborn20 wrote:
LefferDP wrote:
Stormborn20 wrote:
LefferDP wrote:
Riley37 wrote:
Pauper wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
Pauper wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
@Pauper - I strongly recommend you read the DMing and DM Empowerment article. It addresses the Dos/Don'ts of DMing in AL - and covers similar situations - in particular.......
- Subtracting Rewards: Do reduce awards if circumstances warrant doing so. If a character does something that would anger his or her faction, you may choose not to award renown that the character otherwise would have earned. Similarly, if characters take actions in an adventure that would result in them spending time in jail or on the lam, reduce or eliminate downtime awarded to reflect that fact. Be careful in reducing wealth and magic items, as tempers can run high when that happens. However, if circumstances warrant, NPCs can withhold rewards, and the authorities can fine characters.
Adapting the guidelines to this situation - I would be equally careful in removing class abilities.... If reducing wealth/magic items can cause tempers to run high, removing access to class abilities would be orders of magnitudes more likely to do so.
In respect to "going off the adventure rails" and introducing other NPCs (such as a representative of their deity) - sure, but keep it brief. Don't turn it into a pissing contest that drags out the adventure. A quick vision from an angelic being, warning them that their actions stray from the path is about all you need to do.
With that being said - this should only occur in respect to Paladins that worship deities.
Paladins which don't worship a god(s) are perfectly legal. As such, I would simply roleplay it as I suggested above - Using Jaime Lannister as a good example of how such roleplaying should play out. Have NPCs reinforce the fact the PC screwed up - as often as necessary. Have them lose face; Have NPCs distrust their honor; etc.
You have full control over the NPCs at your table
They don't have to like the party. Have them react naturally based on how they feel about the PCs in general - and specific to each individual.
For Example: In hoard of the dragon queen, there is a minor NPC dwarf (chef) in Castle Naetyr. To flesh out said NPC, I made him racist towards halflings - and gave the PC halfling disadvantage on all charisma checks for interacting with him (the dwarf kept shouting for him to get out of his kitchen and that he wanted nothing to do with your kind).... The party mistook that to mean he wanted the entire party out of his kitchen (which was fine with me, he was an NPC of no consequence) - but he was addressing the halfling specifically.
Kalani wrote:
Pauper, I just have to mention that I admire your restraint here, respect. Not sure I could have done it.
Pauper wrote:
No restraint required -- I know Kalani may be brusque, but we agree way more than we disagree and I know she's not trying to be disrespectful. There are other posters that I don't agree with quite as frequently, but I still generally get the idea that they are respectfully disagreeing, even if they're fairly animated about it. Plus, as in CahPahkah's comments above, sometimes people I disagree with have valid points to make.
If I honestly feel that someone has no point other than trying to provoke me, I just block them. 
--
Pauper
My apologies for being "brusque". That's not my intention - I simply respond in a clinical manner whenever possible. I find it helps prevent misunderstandings as I am not the best at navigating social situations and find my words are frequently misinterpreted unless I remain clinical.
No apology required, Kalani, but it is appreciated.
Kalani> honestly did not mean it as a negative towards you, just a postive towards Pauper. You did nothing out of the ordinari for you and its all good. It just made me realize that I can get better at being magnanimous 
Thanks. I will watch out for neglecting other players and their PCs by getting wrapped up in the issues of this one PC.
I will keep in mind the various options, and will generally try subtler methods before cruder methods, and gentler methods before harsher methods.
The store is a "stakeholder". After all, the game happens on their property; they are trusting me to run a game which draws people to the store and builds goodwill and gets people interested in 5E as a product line. So I do keep their sensibilities in mind. A guy brought his 10-year-old son over, one time, to show the boy "this is what D&D looks like", and I was extra-careful "on good behavior" while we had that particular "observer". (Maybe we'll see the boy again when he's a teenager. In the meantime, he's happy with Magic the Gathering.)
So far, so good. The player tends to have his PC hang back, lets other PCs take the risks such as first one into a room, doesn't jump at opportunities to rescue villagers for free. But that's within the bounds of fair play and a game which is fun for everyone at the table.
Another player is running a LN fighter, a mercenary with a code of honor, and though the player says that the PC is a jerk and knows he's a jerk, the PC is actually in my estimation a decent fellow, and totally committed to accomplishing the mission even when the "customer" is a villager who can only pay in turnips or whatever. Kind of like the protagonist of "The Transporter".
"A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. The paladin might spend an allnight vigil in prayer as a sign of penitence, or undertake a fast or similar act of self-denial."
I think it would be fair to dock the paladin a day or two of downtime spent in vigil or fasting if they grossly violated their vows.
I'd also warn the player beforehand, before they went around violating their vows, and asked them if that's really what they want to do. And if they do this repeatedly, I'd tell them they have options to rebuild the character to another vow, if they're level 3 or 4.