I know that since the playtest, WotC have been saying that magical item are not mandatory in 5e, they are simply a nice bonus, and if you have one it should be special and cool etc....
But how "optional" is a magical item in the actual 5e we are playing? When we are hearing that a good DM should give opportunity to everyone int he party to *shine* Everyone should have the opportunity to be usefull in the party. Already this concept fails when you are mixing together optimizer with RPer who want to RP mental dificient character
Next season we'll go fight demons.
almost all demons (pretty sure it's all demon but let's be safe and say that almost all demon) have resistance VS non magical bludgeoning, slashing and piercing damage.
So are you telling me that all the halfling rogue archer out there won't feel useless when there damage will be half, while the wood elf archer using a longbow+1 will do full damage? then the monk attacking with his fist pass level 6 will do full damage? then the fighter with Hew, Talon, Hazirawn, generic longsword+1, trident of warning, Mace of disruption etc... will deal full damage (not even talking about the magical bonus of +2d6 necrotic damage from Hazirawn or the disruption ability of the mace of disruption)
How can we say that magical item are not mandatory when the main enemies that we will be fighting will have resistance to non magical damage?
Yes true, the rogue will still deal half damage, so technically he don't NEED a magical weapon, he can still kill the demon, but how will that rogue feel when the paladin with his greataxe will come and use divine smite to make his weapon magical and strike the demon dealing 3d6+1d12+5 damage and deal full damage, and the rogue will come and do his 3d6 (sneak attack)+1d8(rapier)+5(dex) and deal half damage? How will he feel when even the sorcerer cantrip deal more damage then his sneak attack?
Also true that we are working as a TEAM, so if the paladin and the sorcerer can do good damage and kill the demon the rogue can sit around and wait?? but where is the fun in watching the paladin and sorcerer do all the fights?
Also true we will probably fight other monster then demon, we'll fight drow and other aberation who might not have resistance to non magical damage, but the main ennemy is the demons the fun part will be to defeat the demons.
and also true that the archer hafling rogue, even if useless in combat (since he's dealing half damage) can still be very usefull out of combat (by unlocking the door and disarming the trap) but many player like the combat system. Already the rogue is one of the weakest combatant in the PHB classes(even when allowed to abuse hide/sneak attack mechanics) do we really need to nerf him even more by not giving him any magical item options?
Edit: I'm talking about halfing archer rogue, because it's a pretty common archetype (not a special exceptional build that no one ever play) and because at my knowledge no magical shortbow nor light nor hand crossbow got released in AL (except maybe with the trading post, but only a minority of the DnD player had the chance to visit a trading post) But even a fighter who never got lucky enought to obtain a magical weapon (he only did DDEX module, and when they found the trident of warning, he rolled a 3 against the sorcerer who rolled a 15) he will be in the same boat as the rogue I'm talking about where all his attack against the demon will be reduce by half.
yes a paladin COULD cast magic weapon, IF the party got a paladin high level enought to cast that spell AND willing to spent his few spell slot, and his concentration slot on that spell, instead of casting Bless, or shield of faith or divine favor or keeping his spell slot for healing spell or for divine smites. And even if the party have a paladin able and willing to cast magic weapon, if the paladin get hit, he might fail his concentration and then the fighter and the rogue without magical weapon return in dealing half damage.
I'm not asking to remove the damage resistance from the demon, I'm just wondering if magical item are really "optional" or if they are not mandatory. and if they are mandatory how should we make sure that the fighter and the rogue got decent chance to be able to get the item they need (at least a magical weapon +1, or even a magical weapon without any bonus, just consider as magical)
At what point did 'dealing damage' become the only way for a character to 'shine'?
And for the record, in prior adventures where a monster might have problematic resistance, there's almost always been a way within the adventure for someone to get around it.
For example:
Pauper wrote:
still looking for the halfling archer way to fight the demon, and forcing the halfing archer to go in melee is not a good way, if the player want to play an archer, he donT' want to do an entire season in melee, yes forcing a archer to go in melee from time to time is realistic and necessary, but an archer shoul dbe allowed to be an archer most of the time. The imp in that module got very low HP and is not mandatory fight, and even with resistance he still easy to beat without the weapon.
But here we are going down in the underdark which is "overun by demon" so we won't have only 1 Imp with 11 Hp to defeat, we'll have many demons to defeat.
and true damage is not the only way to shine, but I'm pretty sure all those halfing archer will appreciate to be able to shine as an archer, not just as the thief who hide beind the fighter and can unlock the door once the big scary demon are gone.
Small archers are lacking in magical weapons. No arguments there. At present, their only options are a handful of magic daggers, and a single magic spear in HotDQ (Tier 2). Once thrown, such characters are bereft of their magic item (unless they happen to be an EK, in which case they could throw the item once/round and recover it as a bonus action).
That is, unless they are willing to suffer disadvantage on each attack roll - in which case they have their choice of 3 +1 Longbows
Why would AL encounter design need to compensate for a player pigeon-holing their character? Why would we promote and reward one-trick pony PCs. If a character has no way to be an asset (either mechanically or RP wise) unless the encounter is tuned for his/her optimal mechnical playstyle, I am fine with them learning the hard way that it pays to be flexible and able to roll with the punches.
I agree though, that in situations where a table, players and DM, find themselves unable to move beyond mentalities like "We must Alpha Strike this encounter" or "I must kill PCs" on the DM's side, magic items do quickly seem mandatory. I think the solution to that issue cannot be found by changing magical item distribution, Even if it is a lot easier than effecting mentality change.
I for one appreciate the attempts that the AL seems to be making to move organized play away from being checkers 
imaginaryfriend wrote:
abanathie wrote:
Personally, I think there are some very simple solutions to this problem that are being overlooked by the community. I've detailed one of my solution in another thread, maybe a couple of other threads; it's hard to remember. I'm relunctant to keep putting the same idea forward in every thread though...
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Its not just magic weapon. Characters have several different ways to gain a "temporary" magic weapon with which to overcome resistance including (but not limited to):
Features
- Pact Blade (Warlock)
- Minor Conjuration (Wizard) - can be used to conjure a magical weapon weighing 10lb or less.
Spells
- Magic Weapon
- Magic Stone (Cantrip)
I am sure there are others, but none come to mind for me at this moment.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Let me see if I understand.... this thread opens with an extended rant about creatures that PCs may encounter in adventures that have not been written, for a season that has not started. But yet we are somehow supposed to be sure that it will just be filled with all kinds of wrong...??
Yes, some encounters will work better for some PC builds....other encounters will *not* work as well for some PC builds. If your desire is that all builds must be able to shine equally in every and all encounters.... well I hope the *don't* take your advice, since I would find that a much more bland and uninteresting game.
A few weeks ago, our Bard was clearly the MVP. Two weeks ago my Paladin got the 'perfect set up' for an encounter, and was clearly the star. The Rogue has often been able to save our butt on various occasions. The Archer is made of win against zombies. etc etc. But against a scarecrow..... take all day to kill it. Other times, the Paladin just gets in the way and Dodges. I have seen the Bard go from MVP to nothingburger from one encounter to the next.
This is why you travel with a team, and not solo.
It is also why it is good to have back up abilities or ideas. Maybe you have a magic dagger you can use. Maybe you try and Help the guy doing a ton of damage. Maybe you can grapple. Maybe you just get in the way and absorb some damage to keep the others alive a bit longer.
And that halfling rogue crossbow expert has been getting way more than his share of the spotlight already. If there are a few encounters where he isn't the top damage dealer... I am sure he will survive.
As mentioned, there will likely be lots of non-demons availble to attack, and lots of non-combat options also. You seem to be focusing on a part of a part of a part of the game... and declaring that the sky is falling.
Coredump has the right of it -- if everybody gets to be the 'star' in their turn while running AL adventures, then the designers are doing something right.
Just because a halfling archer might not be able to deal with devils, that doesn't mean there are no encounters for him to shine in.
--
Pauper
I'd suggest for now that you wait and see, because the problem may not actually occur as definitively as you think it will. We haven't seen any of the adventures yet for Season Three.
Mirtek wrote:
Its already happened this season.
We faced two flesh golums in AL play and most of the party had no way to hurt them except throwing a vial of acid. The Sorcerer and one person with a magic weapon were the only ones who could even try to fight them. One more level and I would have had a character ability that would let me hurt them though. Also my lower level character actualy does have a magic dagger found legitimatly. There are magic weapons around they are just more rare.
I feel that its only a slight problem and in fact makes the game a little more interesting. Of course with the un focused and inconsitent parties of AL this can be a real problem but its all part of the game.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
grendel111111 wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
BRJN wrote:
I thought resistance only halved damage, which is a step up from needing magic weapons to hurt it at all (or even having D&D3 style DR10) how is that different from any other encounter where a character happens to not be carrying the correct gear?
spinningdice wrote:
Resistant monsters makes the game more interesting requiring players to think outside the hack and slash box. If everyone has a way to defeat them or normalize them then having resistent monsters is pointless.
Pauper wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Pauper wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Skerrit wrote:
First note: Damage resistance is part of the challenge of the monster. It's included in their challenge rating calculation. Resistance to all non-magical weapon damage probably raises the challenge rating by one level all by itself.
Second note: There are a total of four (4) monsters in the MM with immunity to non-magic weapon damage at CR 10 or below, if you ignore the ones that can be overcome by silvered weapons.
Of those, 1 is good aligned, and the other 3 can be overcome by adamantine weapons (which are functionally 'magical' since there is currently no way to get them).
If you raise the limit to CR 15, the list increases to a grand total of 6 monsters. Of the remaining monsters (all 6 of them) with immunity to non-magical weapon damage, four (4) of those are over CR 20.
- Couatl CR 4
- Demilich CR 18
- Empyrean CR 23
- Clay Golem* CR 9
- Flesh Golem* CR 5
- Iron Golem* CR 16
- Stone Golem* CR 10
- Jackalwere** CR ½
- Kraken CR 23
- Lich CR 21
- Werebear** CR 5
- Wereboar** CR 4
- Wererat** CR 2
- Weretiger** CR 4
- Werewolf** CR 3
- Mummy Lord CR 15
- Rakshasa CR 13
- Androsphinx CR 17
- Tarrasque CR 30
* Immunity can be overcome by adamantine weapons
** Immunity can be overcome by silvered weapons
What are you trying to say Ainulindalion? next season is about demons, and there is a total of 0 demon who got a weakness towards silver. I don't care about the tarrasque, the probablylity that the tarrasque will be seen without season 3 are near 0%.
Well if everyone don't care about all those NPC who will do half damage against the main monster type in season 3, then fine, but don' t start a huge deal about it like your all doing with the Arcane Banishment Edict that is currently happening at the moments. and when the new players coming from the MMORPG world where DPS is the most important stats and feel useless because they do 5 damage while everyone else do 10 and quit the game, don't ask yourself why.
I'll be laughting casting spells with my arcane caster who will finnaly be out of Mulmaster.
Qwerty, I am not sure why you keep posting questions when you never want to hear answers....
You are making lots and lots of assumptions...
1) You are assuming that all of the big fights will be against Demons. Tyranny of Dragons only had a few dragons in it. I have only played in 1 EE module so far... but the big fight was not against an Elemental.
2) You are assuming that the big fight that contains a demon will *only* contain a demon. There could easily be other supporters there.
3) You are assuming that every character needs to shine during the big fight. Perhaps they shined getting there. Killing the drow in the way, or unlocking doors, or sneaking and scouting, or.....
4) You are assuming that none of the EE adventures will have magic shortbows, or scrolls/potions to compensate.
5) You are assuming that every character should be able to bypass a creature's resistance.. If so, why bother giving any creature resistance?
6) You are assuming that the only way for a character to shine is to deal a lot of damage.
My Paladin is really crappy at ranged combat.... should I get made about every encounter that has flying creatures, or creatures at a distance?
Last night we faced a Helmed Horror..... most of us didn't have a magic weapon. OH NOES!!! so we killed it by doing half damage attacks.
Now, if the adventure was to actually travel *to* the abyss and fight demons.... there might be a problem with a lack of magic weapons. But that is not what is happening. You are traveling to the underdark, and are likely to run into some demons there.... A *few* PCs may only do 1/2 damage to those few demons you come across..... so no, I don't see a problem.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Given how vocal the forum minority is - I would have expected people to complain about resistance in HotDQ if it was even a hypothetical problem. There are threads which debate hypothetical corner cases vehemently even though they are unlikely to ever occur
I've complained about the Slaad; just not here on the forums. I don't see a large number of the minority here on the forums; so, it may or may not be a representative minority.
Like I said if a minority of the fight have resistance, (like the helm horror in HotDQ) it's fine, like you said it's show how powerful magic weapon are and when you give the player a weapon+1 instead of a disapointing sight because it,s just a bring +1, they are very happy to be able to to full damage on that helm horror.
Where I am saying there is a problem is if the majority of the fight have resistance while the party lack magical item, specially in AL where you cannot garantee that everyone reaching tier 2 will have a magic weapon.
Yes I am using a lot of assumption, but I figured it's easier for the writter to remember it now, rather then down the line once the module are written. I mean they cannot even add the Arcane Banishement Edict in the intro of the DDEX module.
If the writer remember that parties with magical weapon are an EXCEPTION, and most party won't have magical weapon, then this is fine. and I trust that they are able to do it, but I also know that somewhere in the module crafting process, some peoples are putting weird and wounderfull "useless/fun" item like Horn of Blasting and headband of intellect.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
I'll remind you guys that I started this post with simply asking a question: Does magical item are mandatory, in the view point that we are about to face a season advertise as being demon invading the underdark.
Then everyone started to twisting my word saying that I'm complaining. No I'm stating the FACT
-demon have physical resistance to non magical weapon.
-Magical weapon are extremly rare, (and range option for small character are non existant)
-doing half damage in most fight can become tedious.
-Season 3 will be demon centric (demon centric DO NOT MEANS that we fight only demon, it just mean that demon will have an important role in the story arc, maybe Drizzt's will kill all the demon and the PC will simply run around closing portal and killing humanoid wizard, but demon will play an important role in the story line)
Now if people make the ASSUMPTION that they will be few demon in the demoninc season, or that in season3 their will be more magical weapon avaialable it's fine but they are just assumption just like MY assumption. it's an assumption just like my assumption that they,ll be many demon in the demonic season is an assuption. but it do not change the fact mentioned earlier.
So are magical item mandatory or not? Saying that your assumption is better then my assumption is not constructive to the question.
Saying that my question isn't valid because we don't know exactly what will be in season 3 is not constructive neither
Making the assumption that I believe the writers are incompetant, is not only wrong, but it not constructive to my question.
Giving any intent to my question other then simply being a question, is not constructive to the question.
If you go see my other post, when I simply ask a question and I receive a answer to my question, like when I ask how find steed work, and Skerrit simply said no official list other then the allowed sources to players, I gave some example to make sure I understood properly, Pauper corrected me since I had forgot that the monster manual was limited to beast only, then I drop the subject.
Compare to when I ask if there is an intent to go in different realm then FR then Coredump overtake the thread and start accusing me of complaining againt.
So if you all want to go back to the main subject and leave the pointess debate about wich assumption is being more or less valid behind:
Do you believe magical item are mandatory or are they still optional, even when considering that the future season will be demon centric (once again demon centric DO NOT MEAN we'll fight only demon, but that demon will play an important role in the story line)
My opinion is magical weapon are still optional, except IF we have to fight mostly demon. Having a monster with resistance that the party cannot by-pass from time to time is great and offer a chance to different player to shine, but if it happen too often it can become tedious, This is my opinion and you cannot say that I'm wrong IT'S AN OPINION, but you can say that you disagree and tell your opinion.
If you disagree with my facts (many demon have damage resistance to non magical weapon, next season is describe as the underdark being invaded by demon, and there is few magical weapon in the AL setting, and none of those are range weapon that can be used by an small archer. please proove me that those facts are wrong,
This question is to spark a discussion, not a debate.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Pauper wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote: