As per the recent FAQ update, the DM basic rules is only allowed if no legal targets are present in the Allowed Rules sources. In an effort to save time, this thread is intended as a repository for all legal creature options for use with spells/features.
The following Spells/Features require use of the DM Basic Rules
- Features: Elemental Wildshape
- Spells: awaken (only if plant), conjure celestial, conjure elemental, conjure minor elementals, create undead (ghoul), and planar ally (only if celestial or elemental, as the Imp and Quazit are in the PHB)
All other Spells/Features are limited to the options in the PHB/MM.
- This includes (but is not limited to) polymorph, shapechange, find steed, true polymorph, conjure woodland beings (sprite only), conjure fey, gate, wildshape, etc.
- Sadly, this means nobody will be shapechanging into a dragon as there are no dragons (other than pseudodragon) in the PHB/MM Appendix A.
Complete List of AL Legal Creatures (by source)
Familiars
- PHB: bat, cat, frog, hawk, poisonous snake, owl, rat, raven, imp, pseudodragon, quazit, sprite,
- MM: crab, lizard, octopus, quipper, seahorse, spider, weasel.
Familiars in italics are only available to Chain Warlocks.
Beasts (PHB Appendix D)
- Beasts (CR 0): bat, cat, frog, hawk (falcon), owl, rat, raven
- Beasts (CR 1/8): mastiff, mule, poisonous snake,
- Beasts (CR 1/4): boar, constrictor snake, panther, riding horse, wolf
- Beasts (CR 1/2): black bear, crocodile, reef shark, warhorse
- Beasts (CR 1): brown bear, dire wolf, giant eagle, giant spider, lion, tiger
Beasts (MM Appendix A) - All of the beasts from the PHB, plus the following:
- Beasts (CR 0): baboon, badger, crab, deer, eagle, giant fire beetle, goat, hyena, jackal, lizard, octopus, quipper, scorpion, seahorse, spider, vulture
- Beasts (CR 1/8): blood hawk, camel, flying snake, giant crab, giant rat, giant weasel, pony,
- Beasts (CR 1/4): axe beak, draft horse, elk, giant badger, giant bat, giant centipede, giant frog, giant lizard, giant owl, giant poisonous snake, giant wolf spider,
- Beasts (CR 1/2): ape, giant goat, giant seahorse, giant wasp,
- Beasts (CR 1): giant eagle, giant hyena, giant octopus, giant toad, giant vulture, tiger
- Beasts (CR 2): giant boar, giant constrictor snake, giant elk, hunter shark, polar bear, rhinocerous, saber-toothed tiger,
- Beasts (CR 3): giant scorpion, killer whale,
- Beasts (CR 4): elephant,
- Beasts (CR 5): giant crocodile, giant shark,
- Beasts (CR 6): mammoth
- Beasts (CR 7): giant ape
Beasts in italics have a flying/swimming speed (relevant for wildshape restrictions).
Fey
- PHB: sprite (CR 1/4)
-
The Blink Dog (DM Basic Rules, CR1/4) is not legal. Players summoning CR 1/4 fey must choose the sprite as their only option.
Undead
- PHB: Skeleton, Zombie
- DM Basic Rules: Ghoul, mummy, wight (create undead)
- Monster Manual: Ghast (create undead)
Celestials
- DM Basic Rules: Pegasus
Elementals
- DM Basic Rules: Air Elemental, Earth Elemental, Fire Elemental, Gargoyle, Water Elemental.
- When casting conjure minor elementals, your only CR 2 option is the Gargoyle.
Plants
- DM Basic Rules: Awakened Shrub, Awakened Tree
Fiend
- PHB: Imp, Quazit.
- Characters summoning fiends with planar ally are stuck with Imps and Quazits as their only options.
This is why I retired my moon druid. One option per level? Not fun.
Interesting rule, but I forsee this being ignored a lot in games, especially regarding Conjure Minor Elementals/Elemental given that the name of the adventure is Elemental Evil.
Um you do realize that many of the aquatic forms also have decent land speeds and breathe air (eg giant/crocodile, polar bear, and giant constrictor snake).
The polar bear in particular is a go-to option for many levels, even in non-AL games.
Then there is the fact that higher CR does not always mean better. It depends on your objective.
RulesJD wrote:
I tell those players they have to start a new character in order to play or they can watch, I will not allow you to play a character that is not AL legal simply because of another DM's ignorance.
Kalani wrote:
RCanine wrote:
The list is incorrect about "Characters casting conjure fey and conjure woodland beings are stuck with the sprite from the PHB"
Conjure Fey (level 6 spell) also allows the caster to summon "a fey spirit that takes the form of a beast of challenge rating 6 or lower." Since it would be a waste to use this spell to summon one sprite (when the level 4 Conjure Woodland Beings allows you to summon 8 sprites), Conjure Fey is left to conjure a Mammoth or lesser CR beast and be a pumped up version of Conjure Animals.
Thanks for the correction. I have updated the original post and removed the erroneous mention of conjure fey. (I only saw it mention a fey of CR6, and failed to see the line about it taking the form of a beast)
As of today, this list has become the official list of legal creatures that PCs can use for their spells/abilities, and has been linked to in the following FAQ entry.
AL FAQWhen a character casts a spell that summons or creates a creature, from which rules sources may the creature be selected?
The player whose character casts the spell may select an appropriate creature from the sources allowed by the Adventurers League Player's Guide. If, and only if, no appropriate creature is available in those sources, the player may select an appropriate creature from the Dungeon Masters Basic Rules. In the rare instance in which there is no appropriate creature in those rules, either, the Dungeon Master may select an appropriate creature from the Monster Manual.
A complete list of the available creatures that can be summoned is found in the following thread: Official List of AL legal creatures for Spells/Abilities
Kalani wrote:
The DM Basic Rules is not an allowed Player Resource under normal circumstances
The FAQ entry quoted above clarifies the intent of the Allowed Rules, and implies that only the Players Basic Rules are an allowed rules source.
Otherwise, the restriction would be meaningless. As the restriction on summoned creatures is an official AL rule, it is clear that the DM basic rules is off-limits except under those specific circumstances.
The ALPG was originally written before the DM Basic Rules existed.
- At the time the ALPG was written, we only had a single Basic Rules document - called the D&D Basic Rules.
- This document has since been renamed the D&D Basic Rules - Player's Guide.
- Most of the ALPG v2.0 is a simple copy/paste of the season 1 ALPG - and was not updated with the corrected terminology/language in a few key areas - this being one of them.
I repeat: There is no document entitled D&D Basic Rules. That was the former name of the D&D Basic Rules - Player's Guide prior to the release of the DMs Basic Rules
Congrats, Kalani! Looks like this list won't be too challenging to maintain, either, given that new monsters don't come out all that frequently in 5E.
One question -- are there any spells/class features that actually devolve all the way to 'DM picks from MM' as the only legal option?
--
Pauper
None that I could find in my first read through. I went through each and every spell in the PHB (including a few I wasn't yet aware of such as planar ally), and neither wildshape or a beastmasters companion require anything more than beasts or elementals. IIRC, none of the spells from the EE player's companion summoned creatures, but I have yet to confirm this.
Kalani wrote:
MasterNamer, I am a Local Coordinator. I personally raised this discussion regarding Wildshape/Spellcasting with the Admins, RCs, and my fellow LCs several weeks ago. In particular I mentioned that druids will be unable to use their elemental wildshape ability without access to the DM Basic Rules, and many spells would likewise lack a single legal option.
The FAQ update is a direct response to that discussion and similar questions raised by the community.
- It is official. The DM Basic Rules is NOT included as an Allowed Rules source.
- The FAQ entry clarifies this stance, and states that only in the event you are unable to find a creature in the allowed rules, can you use the DM Basic Rules. This statement would be illogical if the DM Basic Rules was included in the "Allowed Rules". By logical interpretation, this statement implies the DM Basic rules is excluded from that list.
- This is not an issue of debate (as it has already been debated by the campaign staff).
I would have been personally happy if the entire DM Basic Rules was included in the "Allowed Rules". Such is not the case however, as the FAQ entry clearly indicates.
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
Kalani wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
Thanks for this; this is great.
Q: Since "the sources allowed by the D&D Adventurers League Player’s Guide" are story-origin specific, does that mean that the results of spells are as well?
Hypothetically, if "Wizard A" from AL Season 29 and "Wizard B" from AL Season 62 both cast conjure elemental, would they be working from different sets of allowable summons? (This obviously assumes that Season 29 and Season 62 have different allowed character options with differing applicable elementals included in them.) The answer to this doesn't matter now, given the lack of applicable content in Tyranny of Dragons & Princes of the Apocalypse, but seems worth understanding.
CahPahkah wrote:
I think RCanine raises a valid point.
If you cast Conjure Minor Elemental, and choose to summon 8 CR 1/4 creatures.
You can pick from any in the Allowed Rules, since there are none, you may choose fromt the DMG Basic rules, since there are none, the DM can use the MM to choose which creatures are conjured. (And the DM may or may not allow player input)
A similar question was asked in the LC group. Robert has yet to respond however but if he does, I will update this thread accordingly.
Kalani wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Honestly, not a fan of limiting player options. If a player wants to summon Smoke/Fire/Mud/whatever mephits with their Minor Elementals spell, they should be permitted to do so. Why? Because you literally encounter them in the Elemental Evil campaign. It makes no sense otherwise.
So, are the developers extremely poor designers or are they just too busy to make rulings that make sense? Printing a spell that cannot do 3 of it's 4 listed options is by definition broken. That is like printing the Fly spell, but ruling that you have to keep your feet on the ground while flying....Summon 8 creatures.....that don't exist...wow neat spell! Pretty sick that even Fighters can cast a spell that does the same thing!
The DM can use the Monster Manual right? So NPCs with access to these same spells can do more with them?
Instead of just fixing Polymorph scaling and 8x Pixies to fix 99% of the problems, they decided on a broad ruling that cut off the whole hand.
Byakugan01 wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
I didn't interpret anything. I simply followed a set of instructions as per the FAQ.
- Look for a creature in the Allowed Rules Sources (PHB, MM Appendix A). If you find one or more creatures STOP. If no such creature exists, go to step 2.
- Look for a creature in the DM Basic Rules. If you find one or more creatures STOP. If no such creature exists, go to step 3.
- The DM may look for an appropriate creature in the MM.
The above flowchart is a rewording of the following passage. I have broken down each sentence into their corrosponding steps.
When a character casts a spell that summons or creates a creature, from which rules sources may the creature be selected?
RCanine wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
I have added the following passages to the OP for the sake of completeness, at least until such times as the Admins clarify the issue one way or the other. I wanted to make absolutely certain what the strict interpretation said, while still addressing the fact that the intent may be unclear.
UNCONFIRMED
When you cast conjure woodland beings with the intent of summoning one (or more) CR 1/8, CR 1/4, CR 1 or CR 2 Fey, your DM may be able to select an appropriate monster from the Monster Manual. When you cast conjure woodland beings with the intent of summoning 4 CR 1/2 Fey, you may be able to summon 4 satyrs (DM Basic Rules).
However, by a strict interpretation of the FAQ - you will only be able to summon sprites when casting conjure woodland beings
FYI, you're also missing 'owl' from the PHB Familiars list.
Oops. I will fix that when I get home as my phone won't scroll during editing (which is weird).
I know I added it to the list but it probably got deleted accidentally during editing.
Pauper wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Kalani wrote:
This list should serve as an example of why they should expand the list, but carefully choose their words while doing so.
Coredump00 wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
I'm of the opinion that for many of these summon things that the player chooses the number, but not the type of creatures, and that the ALPG only restricts player options.
Since the DM chooses which creatures appear, they can choose things out of any DM legal source (Which is not the same as player legal source) and that includes the full Monster Manual.
My interpretation of the spells is not affected by the FAQ (again, because the DM is choosing the creatures, not the player).
What are your thoughts on this interpretation, Kalani?
Is it sad that I didn't realize that MM Appendix A and the DM Basic Rules were different? Glancing at their content I figured they were exactly the same and didn't study them when the MM came out..
They're very different -- the DM Basic Rules is mostly monsters. Page 8 to page 52 (or 55 if you want to include the NPCs as possible monsters) out of a 62 page PDF.
As a much larger resource, it makes sense to list it after the MM Appendix A; even the DM Basic Rules, though, don't contain all the monsters in the full Monster Manual, which is why that resource is the resource of last resort.
--
Pauper
It is now official in the FAQ at http://dndadventurersleague.org/category/faq/ that the DM Basic Rules are not a legal player option.
Enevhar_Aldarion wrote:
Thanks for your efforts Kalani 
Pauper wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
My reading of the rules on conjuration/summonings vary a bit from Kalani's. I would argue that the DM chooses what the creature types actually are, and as such they have no interaction with the PC allowed resources rule. For a spell like conjure woodland beings, the PC decides if it wants to summon one, two, several or many creatures and the DM decides what shows up; the PC might be able to express an interest in a certain creature, but it's the DM's choice. it's the only way the wording, "The DM has the creatures' statistics" could be true.
This does a few things:
- It makes things a little more sane for the DM
- It allows the DM to flavor summonings to the adventure
- It allows the DM to prevent interactions that would be overpowerful given the situation (like summoning fire-immune creatures against a fire-damage-dealing BBEG)
As long as your interpretation does not go against the rules in the ALPG, PHB or FAQ, you are good. It doesn't matter whether its the player, or the DM choosing the creatures - only that the creatures chosen must first be selected from those available in the PCs allowed rules (PHB & MM appendix A), then from the DM Basic Rules, and finally the Monster Manual.
Whether the DM chooses the creatures, or the player themselves is the kinds of table variance allowed by DME. The DM could not however, choose a T-Rex, as DM rulings (DME) stop as soon as they come up against a defined rule. A DM cannot choose to ignore any defined rule, but when aspects of a rule are open to interpretation - they can interpret it however they see fit.
reddaemon wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
The FAQ clearly states that you can only use a creature from the DM Basic Rules "if and only if no appropriate creature is available in those sources"
When casting polymorph is there an appropriate creature(s) in the PHB/MM (appendix A)?
- Yes. There are several options which meet the criteria of "Your level or lower"
- Therefore, you must choose from those options. You cannot choose a creature from the DM Basic rules, nor can a DM choose a creature from the MM.
What you are failing to realize is that the phrase "your level or lower" is a single clause. In order to choose a creature from the DM Basic Rules, you must be unable to satisfy both criteria. If either criteria is met (you find a creature of your level, or a creature of lower level) in the Allowed Rules - you cannot use the DM Basic Rules
In order to be allowed to use the DM Basic Rules, polymorph would have had to say the following:
- Choose a creature of equal CR/level.
The fact that it includes the clause equal or lower means that T-Rex is off the table, as you can satisfy at least one of the requirements using the PHB and/or MM (Appendix A).
The only reason conjure minor elementals (and similar spells) is debatable, is because it lists several specific CRs from which to choose.
- These spells do not give you an option of CR X or lower. They state you can choose X creatures from Y CR(s).
- In those specific spells, choosing a CR determines how many creatures are summoned (which is distinct from spells like polymorph).
- Even then, the jury is out whether you can summon creatures from the range listed - or if you are forced to summon specific creatures (as I said in my OP).
Polymorph is a completely different beast.
- If you can satisfy the requirement: "your level or lower" using the PHB/MM (Appendix A), you must do so.
- You cannot cherry pick the CR for that spell (it does not give you that option).
- You pick from all available beasts whose CR ranges from 0 - CL (assuming an entry is found).
- If your CL doesn't have an entry in the Allowed Rules, but a lower CR does - you must use the lower CR creature (as it meets the criteria "or lower").
- IOWs - You cannot ignore the clause: "or lower" when choosing a creature to polymorph into
MasterNamer wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
Pauper wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Neither the DM Basic rules or the Monster Manual (with the exception of appendix A) are legal player resources.
A special exception is made to use the DMBR for spells/abilities in the event you cannot find "any" legal target(s) in an allowed rules source. Only in the event that an entry cannot be found in the DMBR can the MM be used.
At the time of the FAQ entries writing, nobody had compiled a list of allowed creatures to see whether the DMBR (or MM) was even needed. They were listed as an insurance measure as well as to future proof the ruling with the release of new spells/abilities
RulesJD wrote:
It comes down to how you interpret the process.
Do you look at all of the beasts and pick one, and if its less that the targets CR you are good?
or
Do you pick a CR equal to or lower than the target, and select a beast of that level?
I have an opinion of which way it works..... but I really can't say the other interpretation is wrong.
Here is a simple answer. The ruling is intended to only allow players to choose creatures outside their allowed rules under extreme circumstances.
One interpretation allows a minimum number of exceptions. The other allows frequent exceptions.
Which do you think the AL supports (once you consider the fact that at the start of the debate, the DM basic rules was confirmed by the admins as not being a legal rules source, completely invalidating some spells and elemental wildshape until the ruling was released)
I think Kalani was refering to this post:
RCanine wrote:
Kalani wrote:
It is easy to tell if this rule passes the smell test or not...
NPC wizard casts Polymorph....what can it become?
PC casts the -exact- same spell....what can he become?
A large part of game balance is the unwritten nuclear non-proliferation treaty that says 'If the PCs can do it, then so can the NPCs. There are plenty of special things NPCs can do that PCs can't. Especially when it comes to special abilities and plot devices. Spells aren't special abilities, and they absolutely shouldn't have different physics for NPCs than for PCs.
I get that polymorph is written badly, and that summon 8x pixies is broken, and that druids shapeshifting into a T-rex as a bonus action every turn and getting a thousand free hitpoints is heinously stupid. But the specific problems themselves would have been way easier to tone down than to categorically gut several entire categories of spell trees and class abilities. *polymorph scales 1/2 level instead of 1/1* problem solved. *Monsters summoned by XXX cannot cast spells* problem solved. *Wild shaping only grants temporary hitpoints once per minute* problem solved.
Instead they thought lefties were OP, so they ruled all PCs have left arms cut off at elbows.
I think suggestion and several of the illusion spells are much more egregious issues IMO, because they function a million different ways and each of those ways is different at every table. I already had to spell out for my 3rd level PCs that I would not be allowing Phantasmal Force to cause status effects such as blinded or restrained, so they shouldn't try to get too cute with it. 2nd level spells shouldn't be written so that they can completely take over games at level 3.
For that matter....What if a PC wants to create an illusion of a T-Rex? Can they even do that since...rules?
Coredump00 wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
The fact is that even AL wrote a dumb rule, that is open for interpretation and not at all accurate with the RAW writing of various spells.
Better ruling? Exactly what they did with Aarakocra. Don't want players summoning 8 Pixies? Fine, ban summoning Pixies. Kapow, problem solved. Literally, that's all it would have taken but AL leadership failed hardcore. Instead we have a rule that will fall down to whether the DM likes to screw players or let players have fun.
Do you have a specific objection, or are you just complaining for fun?
Just because he seems paranoid, doesn't mean the AL admins are not after him.. and after casters..especially arcane casters...
possibly they hate puppies too..and kittens.. well except for Greg..
CahPahkah wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Pauper wrote:
The interpretation Pauper refers to is the one which is supported by the FAQ (keep in mind, this thread is linked to directly from the FAQ, and can be seen as an extension of said).
In light of the fact that this thread is linked to directly from an official source (the FAQ entry cross-linked in the OP), and the fact that I am an LC - if the admins wanted me to change something in this thread, they would have asked me (and I would have gladly changed it).
As such was not the case, and the fact that this list has remained unchanged since the first week - we can assume that the admins are fine with the list as is.
The question is not whether Pauper's intepretation is correct; but whether the "official" interpretation should be changed/broadened.
Discussions like this can sometimes result in policy / ruling changes, depending on how strongly the community (in its totality) feels about the rules. The fact that a ruling exists means it is less likely to be changed, however that does not mean there isn't room for broadening the ruling to accomodate different interpretations, if such is warranted.
Kalani wrote:
It was only added to the FAQ because I was specifically asked to add it by Robert Adducci. It was added the following day after the FAQ entry was originally posted, by admin request.
Pauper wrote:
It is for that reason why I added the "unconfirmed" section to the conjure minor elementals entry (as I have yet to hear an official stance on the issue, but I agree that it is supported).
With that being said - the argument regarding polymorph applies equally to these spells.
For Example: Lets assume (for hypothetical sake) that there was a CR 1/4 elemental in the PHB. The only legal choice for that spell would be said 1/4 Elemental, as it meets the criteria in all cases. You don't pick a CR, you pick a CR range (eg. challenge rating 2 or lower). Is the 1/4 CR Elemental "CR 2 or lower"? Yes - therefore, only the option in the PHB would apply. You never, under any circumstances pick an exact CR - only the CR range.
A Better Example is "Planar Ally" in which characters are only allowed to summon Quazits or Imps (if using the spell to summon fiends).
Kalani wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Err? Fishing for a response - never my intention. I simply posted that list as a resource. At the time I posted it, I never expected it to be linked anywhere - I created the list for my own uses originally, and simply shared it with the group. It was not until after Robert posted, that I took the list more seriously.
Either way, not going to argue the point. As I said above - if the admins want me to change anything about the list, I would do so without hesitation or question (I speak with them on a regular basis).
CahPahkah wrote:
Well, prior to this ruling - the DM Basic Rules and Monster Manual were 100% offlimits. Would that have been preferable in your opinion?
In light of this ruling, they made a second ruling stating that the DM Basic Rules is not (and was never intended to be) a player resource. The fact that the ALPG v2 mentions the D&D Basic Rules is a copy/paste error from the ALPG v1
In any event, I see no value in arguing the point further, but welcome discussion around the ruling, its impact on the game, and debate over the merits/flaws of this ruling compared to alternative interpetations and/or rulings.
AFAIK, there are several options which can be debated:
- Allowed Rules Only: DM Basic Rules and MM (excluding Appendix A) completely banned (this was the original stance).
- Current Ruling/Interpretation
- Current Ruling/ Alt. Interpretations
- All Monster sources legal
- DM Basic Rules legal (other sources restricted)
Feel free to discuss the merits/flaws of each. You never know, it might result in the current ruling being overturn for season 3 in favor of a better ruling/interpretation.
For example: In season 1, crafting healing potions was prohibited. This ruling was overturned for season 2 - with the current ruling allowing it providing the character is proficient with herbalism kits (as per the PHB).
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
I will refrain from speculating on their reasons. I simply added the link to the FAQ as requested, and have answered any and all questions relating to this thread as they have come up.
Until I hear otherwise, I can only assume that this thread represents the wishes of the admins, and as such - I frame all of my responses in light of such.
Yes - this list limits player agency in respect to choosing wildshape forms/conjured creatures
And yes, I agree that the list may be overly strict - however, the alternative (pick anything you choose) has caused significant problems in previous OP environments, including PFS, LG, and LFR. The current ruling is also future proof against unknown product releases - as content can be gated by the "Allowed Rules".
I should also Mention that the "D&D Basic Rules" is a living document
New spells, monsters, and player content might be added at any moment, without prior notice. AL rulings must be mindful of this fact, especially in respect to allowing access to the DM Basic Rules (which might concievably be updated to include a limited list of creatures from the MM2 or a Monster Compendium for example).
Ainulindalion wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Until AL issues errata that the player does not get to choose the CR, then all options are on the table. They need to make a better rule, or clarify the one they have. Your interpretation is still just that, one interpretation of what it means when a player casts one of the relevant spells.
This is literally why we have this sort of group, to get clear answers to these questions. None of you are authorized to definitively say what is allowed and what isn't (nor am I).
The Fact is that the current AL ruling allows for a spell that has multiple options for a single CR2 or multiple, less powerful creatures of a lower CR to become a spell where you have an option for a single CR1/4 to mulitple CR1/4 creatures. Since the option for a single creature is to put a single but more powerful creature on the board and ends up putting a single creature less powerful than multiple versions of the same creature... I would say that the AL should make a new ruling to accomodate the intent of the actual game rules.
RulesJD wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
I'd like to see the list presented in a format such as this:
Class Abilities:
Beastmaster Animal Companions:
CR 0:
CR 1/8:
CR 1/4:
Druid Wildshape Forms:
Lvl 2:
Lvl 4:
Lvl 8:
Druid (Circle of the Moon) Wildshape Forms:
Lvl 2:
Lvl 4:
Lvl 6:
Lvl 8:
Lvl 9:
Lvl 10:
Lvl 12:
Lvl 15:
Lvl 18:
Spells:
Conjure Minor Elementals:**
- 1 Elemental CR <=2: Gargoyle or anything from the lower options on this list
- 2 Elementals CR <=1: Flame Snake or anything from the lower options on this list
- 4 Elementals CR <= 1/2: Magmin, Dust Mephit, Ice Mephit, Magma Mephit
- 8 Elementals CR <= 1/4: Mud Mephit, Smoke Mephit, Steam Mephit
Conjure Elementals:**
- Cast at 5th level: Air Elemental, Earth Elemental, Fire Elemental, Water Elemental, Water Wierd, Xorn, or any elemental summonable with Conjure Minor Elementals
- Cast at 6th level: Invisibile Stalker, or any elemental that can be summoned when cast as a 5th level spell
- Cast at 7th level: Air Elemental Myrmidon, Earth Elemental Myrmidon, Fire Elemental Myrmidon, Water Elemental Myrmidon, or any elemental that can be summoned when cast as a 6th level spell
- Cast at 8th level: etc.
- Cast at 9th level: etc.
Conjure Animals
Conjure Woodland Beings
Conjure Fey
Conjure Celestial
Planar Ally
Find Familiar
Find Familiar (Pact of the Chain Warlock)
Find Steed
Polymorph
Awaken
True Polymorph
Shapechange
Animate Dead
Create Undead
**The CR 7 elementals (in italics) are from PotA. The elementals in Bold are the only ones permitted under the current ruling.
It's an easy enough list to maintain for new spells and abilties as long as you establish rules for it.
"Creatures from the Monster Manual and DM Basic Rules are automatically valid options for spells and abilties as long as they meet the requirements of that spell or abilty. Any other creatures will be decided on a case by case basis, by analysis of newly released material by the campaign staff. Members of the Adventurer's League community can petion to have specific creatures added to the list from other rules sources."
Pauper wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
Granted, I generally only see the DMs that run the big cons, but even then I think I have met much more than my fair share of DMs. Powertripping, while unfortunately not non-existant, very very rare. Just like powertripping players really.
I have found that there is some weird magnetism going on between those two elements though, so perhaps its a self fulfilling perception? Or something in the water, I cannot be sure. I am however convinced that the molehil is not turning in a mountain any day soon regardless of how much mulch is heaped on.
Kalani wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Incorrect. Appendix A is only legal for beasts (it is listed as Monster Manual Appendix a; beasts only).
Non-beasts from the appendix are not legal options
Well, I guess your stuck with sprites then. One of the worse worded rulings I've seen in three public play campaigns... But you can't expect much from them... I guess...
Kalani wrote:
So I finished my list.
So there aren't any questions or confusion by anyone later on:
THIS LIST IS NOT LEGAL FOR ADVENTURER'S LEAGUE PLAY.
Creatures listed in italics are not legal under the current AL rulings
Class Abilities:
Ranger (Beastmaster) Animal Companions:
CR 0: baboon, badger, bat, cat, crab, deer, eagle, frog, giant fire beetle, goat, hawk (falcon), hyena, jackal, lizard, octopus, owl, quipper, rat, raven, scorpion, seahorse, spider, vulture
CR 1/8: blood hawk, flying snake, giant crab, giant rat, giant weasel, mastiff, mule, poisonous snake, pony, stirge
CR 1/4: boar, giant badger, giant centipede, giant frog, giant poisonous snake, giant wolf spider, panther, wolf
Druid Wildshape Forms:
Lvl 2:Beasts (CR 0): baboon, badger, cat, deer, giant fire beetle, goat, hyena, jackal, lizard, rat, scorpion, spider,
Beasts (CR 1/8): camel, giant rat, giant weasel, mastiff, mule, poisonous snake, pony
Beasts (CR 1/4): axe beak, boar, draft horse, elk, giant badger, giant centipede, giant lizard, giant wolf spider, panther, riding horse, wolf
Lvl 4: Beasts available at Lvl 2, plus
Beasts (CR 0): crab, frog, octopus, quipper, seahorse
Beasts (CR 1/8): giant crab
Beasts (CR 1/4): constrictor snake, giant frog, giant poisonous snake
Beasts (CR 1/2): ape, black bear, crocodile, giant goat, giant seahorse, reef shark, warhorse
Lvl 8: Beasts available at Lvl 4, plus
Beasts (CR 0): bat, eagle, hawk (falcon), owl, raven, vulture
Beasts (CR 1/8): blood hawk, flying snake, stirge
Beasts (CR 1/4): giant bat, giant owl, pteranodon
Beasts (CR 1/2): giant wasp
Beasts (CR 1): brown bear, dire wolf, giant eagle, giant hyena, giant octopus, giant spider, giant toad, giant vulture, lion, tiger
Druid (Circle of the Moon) Wildshape Forms:
Lvl 2:Beasts (CR 0): baboon, badger, cat, deer, giant fire beetle, goat, hyena, jackal, lizard, rat, scorpion, spider,
Beasts (CR 1/8): camel, giant rat, giant weasel, mastiff, mule, poisonous snake, pony
Beasts (CR 1/4): axe beak, boar, draft horse, elk, giant badger, giant centipede, giant lizard, giant wolf spider, panther, riding horse, wolf
Beasts (CR 1/2): ape, black bear, giant goat, warhorse
Beasts (CR 1): brown bear, dire wolf, giant hyena, giant spider, lion, tiger
Lvl 4: Beasts available at Lvl 2, plus
Beasts (CR 0): crab, frog, octopus, quipper, seahorse
Beasts (CR 1/8): giant crab
Beasts (CR 1/4): constrictor snake, giant frog, giant poisonous snake
Beasts (CR 1/2): crocodile, giant seahorse, reef shark
Beasts (CR 1): giant octopus, giant toad
Lvl 6: Beasts available at Lvl 4, plus
Beasts (CR 2): allosaurus, giant boar, giant constrictor snake, giant elk, hunter shark, plesiosaurus, polar bear, rhinocerous, saber-toothed tiger
Lvl 8: Beasts available at Lvl 6, plus
Beasts (CR 0): bat, eagle, hawk (falcon), owl, raven, vulture
Beasts (CR 1/8): blood hawk, flying snake, stirge
Beasts (CR 1/4): giant bat, giant owl, pteranodon
Beasts (CR 1/2): giant wasp
Beasts (CR 1): giant eagle, giant vulture
Lvl 9: Beasts available at Lvl 8, plus
Beasts (CR 3): ankylosaurus, giant scorpion, killer whale
Lvl 10: Beasts available at Lvl 9, plus
Elementals (CR 5): air elemental, earth elemental, fire elemental, water elemental
Lvl 12: Beasts and Elementals available at Lvl 10, plus
Beasts (CR 4): elephant
Lvl 15: Beasts and Elementals available at Lvl 12, plus
Beasts (CR 5): giant crocodile, giant shark, triceratops
Lvl 18: Beasts and Elementals available at Lvl 15, plus
Beasts (CR 6): mammoth
Spells
1st Level Spells:
Find Familiar:bat, cat, crab, frog, hawk, lizard, poisonous snake, octopus, owl, quipper, rat, raven, seahorse, spider, weasel
Find Familiar (Pact of the Chain Warlock):
imp, pseudodragon, quazit, sprite
2nd Level Spells:
Find Steed:Beasts (CR 1/8): camel, mastiff, pony
Beasts (CR 1/4): elk
Beasts (CR 1/2): warhorse
3rd Level Spells:
Animate Dead:skeleton, zombie
Conjure Animals:
1 Beast CR <= 2: allosaurus, giant boar, giant constrictor snake, giant elk, hunter shark, plesiosaurus, polar bear, rhinocerous, saber-toothed tiger or anything from the lower options on this list
2 Beasts CR <= 1: brown bear, dire wolf, giant eagle, giant hyena, giant octopus, giant spider, giant toad, giant vulture, lion, tiger or anything from the lower options on this list
4 Beasts CR <= 1/2: ape, black bear, crocodile, giant goat, giant seahorse, giant wasp, reef shark, warhorse or anything from the lower options on this list
8 Beasts CR <= 1/4: axe beak, boar, constrictor snake, draft horse, elk, giant badger, giant bat, giant centipede, giant frog, giant lizard, giant owl, giant poisonous snake, giant wolf spider, panther, pteranodon, riding horse, wolf (CR 1/8): blood hawk, camel, flying snake, giant crab, giant rat, giant weasel, mastiff, mule, poisonous snake, pony , stirge (CR 0): baboon, badger, bat, cat, crab, deer, eagle, frog, giant fire beetle, goat, hawk (falcon), hyena, jackal, lizard, octopus, owl, quipper, rat, raven, scorpion, seahorse, spider, vulture
4th Level Spells:
Conjure Minor Elementals:1 Elemental CR <=2: azer, gargoyle or anything from the lower options on this list
2 Elementals CR <=1: flame snake or anything from the lower options on this list
4 Elementals CR <= 1/2: dust mephit, ice mephit, magma mephit, magmin or anything from the lower options on this list
8 Elementals CR <= 1/4: mud mephit, smoke mephit, steam mephit
Conjure Woodland Beings:
1 Fey CR <=2: sea hag or anything from the lower options on this list
2 Fey CR <=1: dryad or anything from the lower options on this list
4 Fey CR <= 1/2: satyr or anything from the lower options on this list
8 Fey CR <= 1/4: blink dog, pixie, sprite
Polymorph:
CR 0: baboon, badger, bat, cat, crab, deer, eagle, frog, giant fire beetle, goat, hawk (falcon), hyena, jackal, lizard, octopus, owl, quipper, rat, raven, scorpion, seahorse, spider, vulture
CR 1/8: blood hawk, camel, flying snake, giant crab, giant rat, giant weasel, mastiff, mule, poisonous snake, pony, stirge
CR 1/4: axe beak, boar, constrictor snake, draft horse, elk, giant badger, giant bat, giant centipede, giant frog, giant lizard, giant owl, giant poisonous snake, giant wolf spider, panther, pteranodon, riding horse, wolf
CR 1/2: ape, black bear, crocodile, giant goat, giant seahorse, giant wasp, reef shark, warhorse
CR 1: brown bear, dire wolf, giant eagle, giant hyena, giant octopus, giant spider, giant toad, giant vulture, lion, tiger
CR 2: allosaurus, giant boar, giant constrictor snake, giant elk, hunter shark, plesiosaurus, polar bear, rhinocerous, saber-toothed tiger
CR 3: ankylosaurus, giant scorpion, killer whale
CR 4: elephant
CR 5: giant crocodile, giant shark, triceratops
CR 6: mammoth
CR 7: giant ape
CR 8: tyrannosaurus rex
5th Level Spells:
Awaken:Plants: awakened shrub, awakened tree
Beasts CR 0: badger, bat, cat, crab, deer, eagle, frog, giant fire beetle, goat, hawk (falcon), hyena, jackal, lizard, octopus, owl, quipper, rat, raven, scorpion, seahorse, spider, vulture
Beasts CR 1/8: blood hawk, camel, flying snake, giant crab, giant rat, mastiff, mule, poisonous snake, pony, stirge
Beasts CR 1/4: axe beak, boar, constrictor snake, draft horse, elk, giant badger, giant bat, giant centipede, giant frog, giant lizard, giant poisonous snake, giant wolf spider, panther, pteranodon, riding horse, wolf
Beasts CR 1/2: black bear, crocodile, giant goat, giant seahorse, giant wasp, reef shark, warhorse
Beasts CR 1: brown bear, dire wolf, giant hyena, giant spider, giant toad, lion, tiger
Beasts CR 2: allosaurus, giant boar, giant constrictor snake, hunter shark, plesiosaurus, polar bear, rhinocerous, saber-toothed tiger
Beasts CR 3: ankylosaurus, giant scorpion, killer whale
Beasts CR 4: elephant
Beasts CR 5: giant crocodile, giant shark, triceratops
Beasts CR 6: mammoth
Beasts CR 8: tyrannosaurus rex
Conjure Elementals:
Cast at 5th level: air elemental, earth elemental, fire elemental, salamander, water elemental, water weird, xorn, or any elemental summonable with Conjure Minor Elementals
Cast at 6th level: galeb duhr, invisibile stalker, or any elemental that can be summoned when cast as a 5th level spell
Cast at 7th level: air elemental myrmidon, earth elemental myrmidon, fire elemental myrmidon, water elemental myrmidon**, or any elemental that can be summoned when cast as a 6th level spell
Cast at 8th level: etc.
Cast at 9th level: etc.
6th Level Spells:
Conjure Fey:Cast at 6th level: green hag, night hag, any fey that can be summoned by Conjure Woodland Beings, any beast eligible for Polymorph of CR 6 or lower.
Cast at 7th level: giant ape, any creature that can be summoned when cast as a 6th level spell
Cast at 8th level: tyrannosaurus rex, any creature that can be summoned when cast as a 7th level spell
Cast at 9th level: etc.
Create Undead:
Cast at 6th level: ghoul
Cast at 7th level: No new options
Cast at 8th level: ghast, wight, any creature that can be created by the spell as cast at 7th level
Cast at 9th level: mummy, any creature that can be created by the spell as cast at 8th level
Planar Ally:
The appearance of any given creature is totally up to the DM in the role of the otherworldly entity. Therefore, any appropriate celestial, elemental, or fiend is a possible option.
7th Level Spells:
Conjure CelestialCast at 7th level: pegasus, couatl
Cast at 9th level: unicorn, any creature that can be summoned by the spell as cast at 7th level
8th Level Spells:
9th Level Spells:
ShapechangeTrue Polymorph
** The elemental myrmidons come from Princes of the Apocalypse.
The details for 9th level spells are immaterial at this time, as there is no way to access these spells currently in AL play. Also, given the broad abilities of the two spells in question, I chose not to attempt to list the options available.
If I screwed up anything, I'd be delighted to fix it if you let me know, especially if I missed some formatting. All sorts of things went screwy when I moved this over from MS Word.
RulesJD wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
I'll just have to go with rule 0.
Let them know that the AL admins really wanted to screw them over. Then let them know I am ignoring that rule and that they are responsible for not abusing their gifts in exchange for me not having the NPCs abuse the same powers against them. Fortunately, my magic DM powers allow me to say they CAN polymorph and summon stuffs.
Same idea as how Black Tentacles and Disjunction have been unofficially banned in so many home games over the last several years.
RCanine wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Be that as it may, but this overly restrictive course explicitly allowing NPCs and CO.
way better choice(s) (things) is exactly why I do not play Adventurers League.
Fact is, I loathe double standards.
Additionally, restricting choice is restricting fun and - lets be honest - it is not that there is overly much
of choice of creatures on higher levels even before restriction.
Meaning - you can not simply choose a class because you think it is fun.
No, you have to check out all limiting rules beforehand because otherwise you may end up disappointed.
And then the allways present and largely invalid argument that characters have enough options.
An option may only and truly called an option if it is appropriately viable for a given LVL.
Giving an exaggerated example:
It would not not a viable choice if the only legal choice at LVL 20 were LVL 1 and lower creatures.
That would make the "choice" a no go and hence nothing but a fake choice.
I mean, hey it is perfectly up to the powers that be but it is up to the players to play or not to play.
So, each to her/his own.
I've never claimed that there are not options.
My claim is that the options limit the intended usage of the spells/abilties.
I want an Allowed List that meets the intent of the spells, not merely the letter of the spells as written.
Obviously, a full such list isn't yet quite possible, given that not all options exist.
How is this an issue?
Ainulindalion wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Um - you do realize that this ruling allows Players to use the DM basic rules of there aren't options in the Allowed Rules. Moon Druids are unaffected except for being unable to summon/wildshape dinosaurs.
Pauper wrote:
I'm still waiting to hear if this ruling applies to what a player can choose to make llusions of. It does not seem to specify......If I say to the DM...I want to make an illusion of an animal....DM says ok u can only pick these specific ones...because rules? I want to make an illusion of a dragon....sorry dragon's arent an available player option? Oh yeah this NPC wizard can actually polymorph himself into an T rex tho...
Oh here is a good one....What if one PC uses a Suggestion on your wizard...and 'suggests' him to polymorph himself into a T-rex...The player would lose control of his character if he failed the save(because DM controls you when you don't control yourself) and the DM would be controlling the characte and WOULD have the option of T-rex...brilliant!
The ruling only applies to summoned creatures and/or class features (eg. wildshape). Illusions can be of anything imaginable, within reason (no tumble dryers or machine guns for example - 3headed purple dragons that spit rainbows - perfectly fine).
Byakugan01 wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Pauper wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
Dang it.... I thought of something else.
From my position, the issue is what 'variables' can the player select while casting the spell. For comparison I want to look at Bless.
BLESS: You bless up to three creatures of your choice within range.
Lets say there are 5 creatures within range when the spell is cast. Does the player get to choose how many it effects? Can they choose to bless just 1? or 2?
If the player gets to choose the exact amount when the spell says "up to 3", then why can't the player get to choose the exact amount when the spell says "2 or less"?
Coredump00 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Let's make a slight tweak to the argument: say the bless spell read like this:
'Choose up to 3 targets within range that are 5th level or less.'
Now it's clear that you could wind up only blessing the 4th level targets in range -- but that wouldn't be because you chose to cast the spell so that it only affected level 4 targets, it's because you chose your targets so that only 4th level targets were affected.
Likewise, you could choose to summon from 1 to 8 sprites when casting call woodland beings, but this is not because you chose the CR and then the creature -- it's because you chose the only legal creature for that spell, and the number is determined by the mode in which you cast the spell (summon 1, 2, 4, or 8 creatures of that chosen type, if it is of the appropriate CR).
--
Pauper
Pauper wrote:
RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
The problem with not having answers to the hypotheticals and the corner cases (especially if someone asks about them on the forum) is that some one, somewhere, will come onto the forum one time about something totally unrelated and see that hypothetical or corner case, and then spring it on some poor, unsuspecting DM.
The rules say A, the rules say B, the rules don't say C, therefore X.
X completely breaks the adventure, but the poor DM isn't prepared to combat it when the player can quote the rules with page numbers....
And that's a problem.
Ainulindalion wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
You and Kalani seem to always fall back onto the idea that relaxing the rule even just the tiniest bit would result in a 'broken munchkin-fest'.
Pauper wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Pauper wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Ainulindalion is a he, for reference.
I personally think the current guideline is a good starting point, but I don't think the few limits that currently imposes (particularly on the two 4th level COnjure spells) are appropriate.
Given that there is, now, an approved list, I think that the list ought to be expanded to make sure that the spells work the way Joe Bob who reads them one day when he's leveling up and goes "Cool, I can have a bunch of little friends" thinks that they work.
No offense meant to anyone actually named Joe Bob.
I'm reasonably certain that Polymorph is actually meant to cap out sometime around levels 8-10, just because I can't think of actual animals (extinct or not) , which is what the 'beast' category includes, that would be more powerful than the ones that are currently in the MM (appendix A or not). I mean, can you think of an animal that's the equivalent of an Adult Dragon?
If the list were to be expanded, the expansion would need guidelines as well. Expansion of the list would be specifically in the realm of the Campaign Staff, but the guidelines would allow for quick ruling out of overpowered options.
Proposed Guidelines:
1: No creature with the Spellcasting or Innate Spellcasting trait that can cast spells which are of a level more than 2 times the CR of the creature (minimum 1).
2: No creature with the Spellcasting or Innate Spellcasting trait that can cast spells that require further usage of the list of allowed creatures.
I'm not sure what else makes sense, off the top of my head, but that's why we have a community.
As I said previously - the list is expandable. All that is required is to expand the list of Allowed Rules for a story origin to include sources with more creatures. For example, I could see the following as an example:
Allowed Rules
- Players Handbook (all rules except rolling hitpoints or ability scores)
- DM Basic Rules (all beasts, fey, giants, humanoids, and undead; except pixies)
- Monster Manual (Appendix A; beasts only)
The current ruling is future proof, and expandable. I have yet to see a convincing alternative which is less prone to abuse, yet still offers an expanded list of options.
The "problem" that exists, is that the current seasons Allowed Rules is more restrictive than players like. Furthermore, as the DM Basic Rules is a living document, I expect the list to be updated with new monsters eventually.
Kalani -
I think the issue is that people (myself included) don't actually see that expansion of Allowed Rules happening (because except for a very small set of conjuration/transmutation/necromancy spells, it's not needed, and would be silly).
And what that actually creates, the way you describe it, is a banlist. Which is a resource intensive strategy that I think everyone wants to avoid.
That is an assumption. It is a reasonable (and very likely) assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. Still, all of the "variant" options I have seen have either been just as resource intensive (if not more so), or open to abuse due to a lack of future proofing. Keep in mind that the ALPG is only updated once/season, and as such - new "additions" to the "banlist" would only occur at specific points.
Regardless, I stand by my earlier comment and will refrain from the debate/discussion about alternative rulings (esp. those relating to specific suggestions) - in an effort to maintain an unbiased and impartial stance. I do however, defend the current ruling in that it is the best ruling (for this issue) I have seen in an OP campaign to date (and I have played several, including LC (greyhawk), LFR, and PFS).
Yes, the ruling has issues and may have some growing pains, but it is still a better option than what we have been provided previously. The abuse was so bad in some OP campaigns that Paizo has responded by creating their "Core" campaign in order to address the issues in their own OP campaign.
Kalani wrote:
I think a really good way the campaign staff could handle this issue and squash any misinterpretation or table variation is to simply put all allowed creatures in the Adventurer's League Player's Guide, and completely remove the Monster Manual and DM Basic Rules from the list of allowed sources(and remove it from the FAQ too). Have a rule in the ALPG that specifically states that any spell, ability, or effect that calls the stats of a creature other than a player, you can only choose a creature from the list in the appendix in the ALPG. There can be no confusion if you don't even have the option of opening the Monster Manual.
This seems like it would be the ultimate answer with very little room for variation and provide a way for the campaign staff to add additional summon/polymorph options when new content is release, while also giving complete control over what is allowed so you don't end up with people summoning 8 pixies. It keeps things simple without having to specify multiple books that are allowed sources. You just have to simply state:
The Following rules are allowed:
- Player's Handbook
- D&D Basic Rules (not DM basic rules)
- Appendix at the end of the ALPG
- Player's Companion for this season
Ainulindalion wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
Pauper wrote:
The problem with statements like "Prove X is broken!!1!!" is that the example X given is rarely all that broken (well except for the t-rex ) but also that it is rarely really about the example in question. it is about the precedent. And we all know that any precedent will quickly become a weapon for part of the AL playerbase. The moment one example gets any kind of official backing, situations Y and Z will allso become "official". Or at least that is what the claim will be. As such admins are in a really sucky position where they are better off leaving this kind of debate to rage. The moment they engage even halfway officially , people will pounce. Now of course I have only seen that happen a few hundred times or so over the last 12 years of OP, so what do I know
I can certainly understand these endless attempts at denouncing corner cases and getting some sort of ruling that will allow people to bypass their DM and do what they want (for me the definition of broken munchkinism). In my experience most all requests for clarification or even change boil down to exactly that, a request for a quote to slap a DM around with. I dont foresee it working. And I certainly don't support it.
And honestly all the predicted problems can easily be solved by cooperation between DM and players. But as long as people persist in attempts at making it some sort of antagonistic relationship. That is just not going to happen. And I think those people (be they DM or player) are missing out and manufacturing their own frustration.
imaginaryfriend wrote:
TheBreen wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Yes. If you look on page 1 of this thread, it lists all possible beasts which can be used when casting spells, or using wildshape.
As I understand it, the admins are working on adapting (and refining) this list for specific spells/features - and will be specifically addressing some of the concerns raised in this thread (esp. those relating to conjure minor elementals and conjure woodland beings). While I can state for the record that no pixies will be added to the list, there is a possibility that some minor exceptions will be made for these two specific spells in respect to providing options for other CRs.
I went through the DM Basic Rules and MM to see what such options exist, which are the following:
Conjure Minor Elementals (Possible Ruling Expansion)
- CR 1/8: No options in PHB, or MM
- CR 1/4: Mud Mephit, Smoke Mephit, Steam Mephit (MM)
- CR 1/2: Magmin, Dust Mephit, Ice Mepthit, Magma Mephit (MM)
- CR 1: Fire Snake (MM)
- CR 2: Gargoyle (DM Basic Rules)
Conjure Woodland Beings (Possible Ruling Expansion)
- CR 1/8: No options in PHB or MM
- CR 1/4: Sprites (PHB)
- CR 1/2: Satyrs (DM Basic Rules)
- CR 1: Dryad (MM)
- CR 2: Sea Hag (MM)
A significant portion of the legal beasts for Wildshape are available in the appendix of the Player's Handbook. I recommend that you make copies (either by photocopy, scanner, or typing up) of the ones you use most often.
If you use beasts that aren't in the PHB (so, from MM appendix A), I would see if I could I could borrow my DM's MM and do the same thing with anything you use regularly.
Keep whatever form you make the stat sheets in with your character sheet for your Moon Druid in a folder or something. That way, they're right there when you need them.
I go a step further myself and create lists of my favored wildshape forms, complete with any changes to their Stat Block as a result of my skills, and class features (from multiclassing).
For example: my Druid/Barbarian lists things like Unarmored Defense (increased AC), Rage, Reckless Attack, Danger Sense, and skill proficiencies in my druids wildshape stat blocks.
RCanine wrote:
My biggest... concern about this particular AL ruling is that it attempts to categorize different mechanics as a single mechanic without any regard to the individual mechanics. Class features, like the Moon Druid wildshape and Ranger's animal companion are treated exactly the same; however, in reality, they are different in many important ways. Rangers have generally, at least from a popular perspective, received the short end of the stick in this edition; they just aren't that popular of a class. The Moon Druid, on the other hand, harkens back to CODzilla, though at a lesser degree. Consequently, they seem to be more popular. Well, at least there is a sizable component that preceives that. On top of that, summoning spells are treated identically as these class features, and some spells have been, in essence, rewritten to eliminate any options except for one or two options.
All of this smacks, at least from my perspective, of lazy thinking. In other words, let's come up with a simple solution that doesn't require us, being WotC or the AL administration, to think about it too much instead of tackling each issue fairly. Personally, I don't really care about this issue too much beyond the lack of consideration and thought invested by the AL.
I will note that I am glad I never got around to playing my halfling for Chult though. The sudden change in ruling would have forced a complete rewrite of the character in mechanical and flavor terms. I generally avoid having to do rewrites of a character, including using the retraining option beyond correcting minor oversights on my part.
Coredump00 wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Kalani wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Now that the list has been published, let's break down step by step why the 'choose a CR' option doesn't work, using conjure woodland beings as the example spell:
- Player selects the number of creatures to summon. Let's say he chooses to summon one creature. That creature must be CR 2 or less.
- The list contains a creature in a legal rules source of CR 2 or less -- a sprite.
- Player summons one sprite. Spell requirements are satisfied.
Now let's go through the same sequence assuming the player chooses both the number and the CR:
- Player selects the number of creatures to summon, and the creatures' CR. Let's say he chooses to summon one CR 2 creature.
- The list does not contain a legal CR 2 creature for conjure woodland beings. As such, the player can then consult the DMs Basic Rules.
- The DMs Basic Rules does not contain a CR 2 fey creature. As such the DM then can look in the Monster Manual for an appropriate creature.
Here's the thing: sprites exist in the Monster Manual, and since they are CR 2 or less, they can be chosen by the DM to satisfy the terms of the spell (CR 2 or less). If, however, the spell requires the DM to choose a fey creature of exactly CR 2 to satisfy the player's request, then the player is getting to summon a creature that, by rule, does not exist in a legal rules source, and thus should not be summonable.
By using an interpretation of the spell that is not supported by the text of the spell to allow the caster to summon a creature the AL rules would normally not allow to be summoned, the player is attempting to hack the system to gain more power than the rules allow him to possess. While I wouldn't normally invoke Wikipedia to settle a rules dispute, the definition there fits:
Wikipedia wrote:
My problem with the list (published in the FAQ) is that it's wrong. It allows rangers to have large size animal companions, explicitly violating the rules in the PHB.
Beyond that, it doesn't actually change anything from Kalani's list. Which renders it a pointless addition and doesn't actually change the arguments or resolve the questions.
Ainulindalion wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Skerrit wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
I've always known it was the official interpretation. I still feel it's wrong. I've just stopped arguing because no one actually cares about the opinion of the people who disagree with it.
Ainulindalion wrote:
I have corrected several errors in the FAQ list. These errors were:
- Wildshape: Druids cannot choose CR 7 (giant ape)
- Elemental Wildshape: Druids cannot choose gargoyle
- Ranger's Companion: Removed large creatures.
The FAQ list does not include lists for several spells including (but not limited to): awaken undead, polymorph, shapechange, true polymorph
As such, I will keep this list active but will edit the OP to remove the unconfirmed details.
It appears that the admins decided not to expand the list for conjure woodland creatures and conjure minor elementals. This is unfortunate but not unexpected, as it might create a prescident that could be abused in future.
Pauper wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Either way - the admins were aware of the issue and decided not to make an exception in this case. You don't have to like it - but the ruling is what it is. Can't make everyone happy after all. Any ruling (no matter how fair) will upset some people.
Kalani wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
imaginaryfriend wrote:
If you choose not to enforce the rules, keep in mind that your player's may suffer serious disappointment if they go to another table where the rule is enforced. Personally, I feel you are doing your players a disservice by ignoring the rules, as that will only cause them problems later.
Ainulindalion wrote:
MasterNamer wrote:
- Conjure Animals: Higher level summons more of the same
- Conjure Celestial: Celestial of CR 5 or lower. Based on the ruling for conjure minor elementals/woodland beings - this would remain unchanged. No reason to cast using a higher level slot.
- Conjure Elemental: the CR increases by 1 for each slot. List unchanged.
- Conjure Fey: CR increases by 1 for each slot above 7th. At higher levels, can summon giant apes (already included in list)
- Conjure Minor Elementals: Summons more of the same
- Conjure Woodland Beings: more of the same
Planar Ally: I am awaiting confirmation whether the admins want me to create an entry for that spell (based on the existing entries).
Find Steed: The Admins have decided not to create an entry for that spell, as it is self-contained and only allows specific beasts (and additional beasts with DM permission).
Well that's easier than I expected.
Yeah, it looks like create undead was the only one to include new creatures when cast at higher levels. The only reason it does so is because those creatures are specifically called out. If it had instead said "increase CR by 1", the list would have remained unchanged with ghoul being the only option.
I have created a proposed entry for Planar Ally (still waiting on confirmation before adding to the list).
Planar Ally
- Players Handbook: imp, quazit
- DMs Basic Rules: air elemental, earth elemental, fire elemental, gargoyle, pegasus, water elemental.
Based on the above list, there is little reason to cast planar ally in AL - as all of the above choices are found in other spells. The only benefit of this spell therefore is the fact that you can summon creatures of multiple different types with a single spell (but even then, I don't think that is a great enough benefit for the cost)
...(but even then, I don't think that is a great enough benefit for the cost)
And again a spell is almost nerfed into uselessness.
Because, lets face it a 6th lvl spell is reduced to 5th level niveau at best.
Well done.
Kalani wrote:
Except that today's ruling does not allow dryads - making your interpretation contrary to the ruling.
Kalani wrote:
So the FAQ restrictions on Awaken are a bit weird. I figured that Awaken was a bit different because it requires you to actually touch a beast or plant to awaken it, unlike Wild Shape, where you just have to have seen one ever. If an adventure includes something that's a viable target for Awaken, but not in an allowed rules source, it only makes sense that the PC can awaken it. Otherwise, what would happen? The spell fizzle because of a FAQ?
Actually, I'd prefer if Awaken was just straight up banned, because, like Find Steed, its lack of limitations on CR mean that a sloppy author could cause all kinds of balance headache for subsequent tables.
Awaken also takes 8 hours or something crazy to cast, so it's not like that's going to come up very often in play.
Kalani wrote:
There's a discrepancy between the AL FAQ entry on the main site and the FAQ wiki.
From the AL website, for ranger companions:
Beasts (CR 1/4): giant badger, giant bat, giant centipede, giant frog, giant lizard, giant poisonous snake, giant wolf spider
From the FAQ wiki, for ranger companions:
Beasts (CR 1/4): giant badger, giant centipede, giant frog, giant poisonous snake, giant wolf spider
I bolded the creatures that were deleted between the two entries. Which is correct?
abanathie wrote:
Travis probably missed the giant bat and lizard when removing the "large" creatures from the list (the intent was there to remove all large creatures as it was a copy/paste error)
Kalani wrote:
I will let them know. Oh and I was mistaken - it wasn't Travis who updated the website entry, it was another member of the campaign staff.
Kalani wrote:
cythgrimey wrote:
The problem however, is that AL does not allow house rules of any kind. Period. No Exceptions
DMs are expected to play by the rules written in the PHB, and the ALPG. The AL FAQ is also a source of official rules documentation, and while most entries in the FAQ simply clarify the rules - those few entries which create official rulings cannot be ignored or overturned by the table DM. When there is a discrepency between the FAQ and the ALPG however, the FAQ has priority (as the campaign staff has little control over the ALPG).
For Example: This weeks ruling on vampires/lycanthropes
A table DM cannot overrule the FAQ and allow their players to adventure while under the effects of these conditions beyond the current episode (or adventure in the case of Expeditions). This ruling is official, and must be followed. Now - in the instance that a DM is unaware of said ruling, they can be forgiven for not following it. As soon as they become aware of said ruling however, they are expected to follow it, just as they are expected to follow the ALPG.
Case in Point: Yesterday, we had a new player show up at my store who had relocated from Houston Texas. His former DM had implemented some very OP houserules at his table which resulted in a L3 Halfling fighter having a 20 Dexterity, 2 feats (crossbow expert and sharpshooter), and other perks I was not clear on. Said DM allowed players to take flaws in order to gain additional feats/perks, but I am not clear on the specifics.
Suffice it to say, I informed said player that their former DM was not empowered to houserule and that they would need to rebuild the character as a legal character, else they would be unable to use that character in AL.
Good luck in stamping out houserules! I don't mean that sarcastically or anything like that... Realistically though, it will be very difficult to feat to achieve. I just stated my view on houserules; I don't have a problem with them as long as there is full disclosure. In your final example, there wasn't full disclosure; the player didn't know the full impact of those houserules on the portability of his character. His DM failed him; it does happen on occasion.
I do prefer the rules as written in a public campaign; they avoid situations as illustrated by Kalani. However, I'm just trying to be realistic to... reality. Eliminating houserules is one of those few impossible tasks. You could even point out a flaw in an "interpretation" and be faced with a houserule, due to inflexibility, even after the DM is aware of "correct" ruling. It's just easier to expect disclosure instead of fixing everything.
Kalani wrote:
cythgrimey wrote:
Pauper wrote:
I think an strong effort should be made to follow the rules whenever possible. OTOH, I want the game to be fun. Thus 'allowed' or not, I think some houserules are not a problem. My advice would be:
Keep them few
Keep them minor
Be *very* clear that you are breaking the rules.
Be sure that your change is no nerfing someone's character.
Ex. I think it would be reasonable to give players a choice on a crit, max damage, or double dice. That is a House Rule, but effects everyone about the same, doesn't harm anyone's buiild concept, and is minor.
I would *never* let a player use a quarterstaff in one hand for a home game... but that would be a lousy AL house rule since it may negatively impact a players character build.
But be honest and upfront that you are changing the rules.
Kalani wrote:
eyrieking wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
I didn't write the ruling. While it was being discussed, I actually advocated for a more lenient ruling. Such was not the case however. The list of creatures above are the only options available as per the ruling in the link above.
A supplementary FAQ adapted this list by spell/effect. Both can be found in the AL FAQ (link in signature)
I wouldn't worry about 9th level spells. The campaign has only just expanded into tier 3 expeditions. In addition - all of the hardcover adventures end at 15th level. For the foreseeable future there will not be any adventures legal for tier 4 characters. I suspect 1-3 seasons before this becomes an issue and by that time the ruling may be revised or overturned
Kalani wrote:
eyrieking wrote:
eyrieking wrote: