Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frbelanger Jul 11, 2015 5:00:46	How DM handle this spell in AL?     Do players use gelatinous cube most of the time? In that case how Dm manage the target.: Allow investigate check, loose its action trying to brake free?   Is the spell effectivly a hold  monster spell at level 2?
#2 CahPahkah Jul 11, 2015 11:37:24	frbelanger wrote:
#3 Coredump00 Jul 11, 2015 13:18:45	Expect table variance...     Not sure what I would do....  he would not actually be restrained, but he may think he is restrained....  or maybe he assumes he gets away...     However I "want' to handle it, I will have to weigh that against it being only a 2nd level spell....
#4 Undrhil Jul 11, 2015 17:22:54	I love dropping gelatinous cubes on creatures.  Even if they aren't restrained or whatever, they treat it as being real.  Most of the time, the DM will have it waste a turn attacking it, then have it make an investigation check, then keep attacking it if it fails the investigation check.  (My Wizard is a Divination school and I used to make them take a low number for their investigation roll when the DM would just make that check first ... so they started attacking first round, maybe second round and then trying to catch me off-guard with the investigation check.)
#5 frbelanger Jul 11, 2015 18:13:21	The question is:  Can a level 2 spell be a hold monster with maybe a save depending how much palyers whin about the realism of their brillant idea of illusion.
#6 CahPahkah Jul 11, 2015 18:32:43	The question is clear; the answer is "no".
#7 Byakugan01 Jul 11, 2015 19:19:39	Spell should be on the banned list in AL, until such time they eratta the spell to function within the normal limits of a 2nd level spell.
#8 CahPahkah Jul 11, 2015 19:28:29	The spell doesn't need errata; it just needs a DM.   Fortunately, we're playing a roleplaying game with a DM baked right in.
#9 Byakugan01 Jul 11, 2015 21:28:30	That you have that opinion suggests you have never encountered it in AL before.    The only reasonable route is to draw a line somewhere as the DM, but it is most certainly going to a house rule.  Because as written, the spell can cause blindness/restrained/drowning/paralysed/etc...   all of which are clearly too powerful for a single wis save illusion that allows no resaves.
#10 Kalani Jul 11, 2015 21:39:41	It does however allow an investigation check. I've had NPCs acting like a mime in a box while making their investigation check, and when they fail - to start banging on empty air trying to get out.
#11 CahPahkah Jul 11, 2015 22:31:16	Byakugan01 wrote:
#12 imaginaryfriend Jul 12, 2015 3:31:57	Also do not see the problem. Lets take the cube as an example:   Deal 1d6 psychic on initial contact and victim believes it is engulfed. Victim uses an action to escape, automatic sucess as the illusion has no real way to oppose it. Victim of course explains this as pure luck or somesuch because to them the cube is real. Victim then moves away from the cube. (I am assuming the victim knows they need to try and escape, a very stupid victim may try to just move out, which may also work and then not even an action is consumed) The cube cannot move, but as long as the victim believes it is real they will try to avoid it.  Done.   So, level 2 spell, 1d6 damage, 1 action taken. Seems fine or even weakish.
#13 frbelanger Jul 12, 2015 6:01:07	Once cast the spell is not limited by by range. Nothing  say that the illusion ooze cannot move and thus engluf again the target. Nothing is said neither about the illusion capacity to  restraining or immobilizing the target. DM call. Player whin, Lawyer and ego debate about the capacity of the spell,
#14 imaginaryfriend Jul 12, 2015 7:11:30	Of course it is a DM call, which is what my answer illustrates For me, this spell is not an issue at all. In practice I would likely allow it to work a little better than the minum options described, but its still a low level illusion. I am not about to let it become way too powerful. This will be the case with most DMs. As such, the spell is not an issue.    Of course players can build awesome what-if scenario's concerning this spell based on all kinds of interpretations in their favor. But then thats why, as CahPakah has stated, we have that baked in DM. And that baked in DM has the freedom and even the responsibility so say "dream on" (in as nice a way as possible of course).
#15 CahPahkah Jul 12, 2015 7:45:48	That's exactly how I handle it.   Using illusions to do creative and contextually interesting things is great, and something I'm totally supportive of as a DM.   Using illusions to try to replicate higher-level spells because someone on the internet insists "It's RAW and the DM can't stop you!" is a pile of hot nonsense that deserves to get laughed at at the table.
#16 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jul 12, 2015 7:57:41	frbelanger wrote:
#17 Coredump00 Jul 12, 2015 11:06:16	If something illogical or 'impossible' happens, it is rationalized away.  So it is even feasible that the 'engulfed' PC rationalizes why he can move freely even when inside a Gelcube.  Maybe it was from all that extra training, or a byproduct of multiclassing...or perhaps all of those stories about Gelcubes were embellished....
#18 Sorsohka Jul 12, 2015 11:10:23	remember that phantasmal force if only an illusion.   The exemple given int he spell description says that the target trying to walk across teh bridge will fall and believe that he got push or slip off the bridge. The bridge had no affect on the target.   So you make a spider web appear the target will fight against it and try to get out of it, and will easily succeed and will believe that he's stronger then he looks.   If you make an enemy appear and fight the target, then yes the target might fight the illusion back and believe that he miss because the illusion dodged.   Personally I like to make a small mindflayer appear, dealing 1d6 pshychic damage, and most ennemy will want to kill a mindflayer, even a child one, specially if the child can attack. Why a child? so it look more realistic then an adult who is not trying to grapple and eat your brain.   But if the target believe that you fighter friend is more of a threath, then the target can attack the fighter instead of the illusion. but the illusion will keep dealing 1d6 psychic damage.
#19 Byakugan01 Jul 12, 2015 15:32:55	How about a simpler illusion of being encased in a block of stone?   First thing is you are completely blind, because you 'see' and 'feel' the rock scratching your eyeballs if you open them.  It is completely irrational to think you can walk around freely if stuck in a block of stone, so your are also essentially restrained. If you were a flying creature u cant flap your wings in a big block of stone...so down you go!     anybody ever get encased in a block of stone and first think, hey i should just walk through it.  Any such claim is a purely matagaming decision, unless you got earth glide ;)   if you think you are submerged in liquid, is your first reaction to try and breath the liquid?  That will work out awesome.    Like i said I already house ruled it in my game. And it sounds like the other DMs have effectively done the same thing.  Which is a problem for AL.
#20 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jul 12, 2015 16:13:59	Byakugan01 wrote:
(Reply to #19) Coredump00	Byakugan01 wrote:
#22 frbelanger Jul 12, 2015 18:35:17	Ok, thank all, We dont need a debate about the true nature of illusion in DnD. We have here a pandora box. Keep it close!
#23 Byakugan01 Jul 12, 2015 19:56:18	Even if you go with the pretty big leap in judgment like that, then someone can just be more creative...instead it's a adamantite iron maiden with spikes all around you...i doubt many people's first reaction would be to run themselves through with pointy bits.      My point hasnt changed.   Every DM is going to have a different understanding of the spell, and it will function extremely differently from table to table.    Not little cosmetic differences, but different like some games it functions more on par with 6th or 7th level spells.  This is bad for AL. Some other spells that are like this are Find Steed, and Fabricate.  We've had pretty extensive discussion about those.
(Reply to #23) Mirtek	Byakugan01 wrote:
#25 Byakugan01 Jul 13, 2015 3:16:50	Right, except they think the illusion is real and nobody ever heard of rusty or fragile adamantine.  The illusion is in their head, and even if they do move, they will still be surrounded by an pointy adamantine box that is blinding them and 'stabbing' them for real damage, and if you spent your action 'shuddering' and trying to break out then you didn't spend an action making an investigation check.  Would you like to shudder some more on your next turn?   It is a very poorly designed spell in general, and an even worse spell for AL.  Low level spells that completely rely on DM fiat to keep it from taking over a game are just bad imo.  Phantasmal Force and Suggestion are the worst offenders.
(Reply to #25) Mirtek	Byakugan01 wrote:
#27 CahPahkah Jul 13, 2015 6:09:44	Byakugan01 wrote:
(Reply to #19) Sorsohka	Byakugan01 wrote:
#29 Byakugan01 Jul 16, 2015 4:01:40	You guys get that the caster controls the parameters of the illusion, right?  They are under no obligation to make the illusions immobile.    you can try to break out or move as much as you want, but the illusion of the 'spiky coffin of stone'  is still affecting your brain and making you think you are in a spiky coffin of stone, until you succeed on an investigation check.   Attempting to break out is NOT using an action to investigate...it doesn't even use the correct ability.  You still can't see anything around you, opponents still get advantage to hit you...you probably cant make any attacks unless you normally have an attack that functions through solid barriers.  On the bright side, the medusa would be staring at you wondering why its gaze wasnt affecting you.    You are rationalizing in the wrong direction....perhaps you rationalize that the prison was too strong to break or that you escaped but were teleported back into it...or that it is a mimic that swallowed you.    I get how dumb it is. But as written there is basically no limit to the ways in which the spell can disable someone.     Creating other ways for people to get out from it is a perfectly reasonable solution, but that IS a house rule which is prohibited in AL.  I house ruled it anyways, so add it to the list I guess.
#30 Byakugan01 Jul 16, 2015 4:06:57	Perhaps you would prefer a scuba mask filled with lava?
(Reply to #29) imaginaryfriend	Byakugan01 wrote:
#32 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jul 16, 2015 6:06:22	Byakugan01 wrote:
#33 Byakugan01 Jul 16, 2015 6:57:54	Imaginary, you are basically saying that the DM can do anything he wants, as long as the book doesn't explicitly SAY he can't.    For example that is like AL rules saying players are allowed to take feats, BUT it does not say you can't require them to do a QUEST on a different continent that they can't get to right now FIRST.  Duh!  Well the fly spell says you can fly...but it does not say I can't ALSO requires you to do nothing but flap your arms or you fall...   You used similar logic back when we discussed Fabricate...It specifically states the requirements, and you arbritrarily said u could just add more.   We are obviously operating with different assumptions, and that is the problem...we can't even agree on the BASIC effects of the spell.  That is the point.    Why do you think they can't feel resistance when tryign to escape?  The spell specifically says it includes such things. Why do you think multiple ability rolls can free the subject when they explicitly only get 1 Wisdom save and then must make an investigation check(A very specific action).   You see and feel what the caster wants you to see...not what you declare your character thinks he sees.  The bridge is actually a terrible example for them to have used in the first place...I've never heard of anyone actually casting the spell to make a bridge, so it isn't even a very applicable example. What, you are going to get close enough to someone to cast the spell on them, and they aren't going to notice you casting a spell?  Then a bridge appears and then you need to trick them into walking over it...yeah, I see that happening.  If you just read the spell and realize they can just immobilize and blind people WHILE damaging them.   What do you do when you realize someone put a lava-filled scuba mask on your head?  Remember you KNOW it's real, and it is even burning your eyeballs(inflicting 'fire' damage) to you.  You agree that people cannot see through lava, right?  So, by the rules, what happens when an unseen attacker attacks you?   Note the bridge....when they fell through the bridge, it didn't even give them another save or say it counted as investigating....because they failed their save, they still know the bridge is real.
(Reply to #33) Sorsohka	Byakugan01 wrote:
#35 Kalani Jul 16, 2015 11:26:01	imaginaryfriend wrote:
#36 Mommy_was_an_Orc Jul 16, 2015 17:52:35	Byakugan01 wrote:
#37 imaginaryfriend Jul 16, 2015 19:10:52	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#38 Byakugan01 Jul 17, 2015 1:00:24	I understand you feel the need to attack my selection of words instead of answering the questions I asked.     If you guys never used a real life reference to explain what you are talking about in game then you have very unique communication methods indeed.    But i am pretty sure everyone can picture what I described.   kalani, do you think an illusion of a creature attacking them stays in place? I don't.    The bridge example i see going something like 'they see a bridge over here'.    Failed save = they see a bridge in that location.   If instead the caster said they see a bridge thats 10 feet in front of them, then they would see the bridge constantly floating 10 feet in front of them.    'They see themselves trapped in a stone coffin' is a bit different.  Even if they 'try' to move through it, they are still under the effect of the spell that has the effect of 'they see themselves trapped in a stone coffin. '.
(Reply to #38) imaginaryfriend	Byakugan01 wrote:
(Reply to #39) Sorsohka	imaginaryfriend wrote:
(Reply to #38) Mirtek	Byakugan01 wrote: