Players leaving early - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Nevvur May 29, 2015 13:25:42	Something comes up where one or more players has to leave before completing an Expeditions module, reducing the table to 2 players and a DM. How do you proceed? This is not a regular occurrence with repeat offenders. It's happened twice in three months, and both cases involved different players, but I could use some guidance on what to do if it happens again.
#2 CoreyartustheSecond May 29, 2015 14:29:45	Nevvur wrote:
#3 Pauper May 29, 2015 14:42:48	Nevvur wrote:
#4 RCanine May 29, 2015 21:33:26	CoreyartustheSecond wrote:
(Reply to #4) Nevvur	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #4) CoreyartustheSecond	RCanine wrote:
#7 reddaemon May 30, 2015 7:57:58	I don't think anyone suggested that leaving early results in dying. That would be ridiculous. It was merely suggested that if someone dies at a table of 3, the game doesn't stop, so it shouldn't stop if someone leaves early. There's nothing to be abused because nobody can just kill characters if a player leaves early. You simply split the treasure that has been earned so far, award them minimum xp, and wish them a good night (this is how I have handled it in the past).
#8 Kalani May 30, 2015 9:01:46	Characters which die earn XP and treasure as normal. The only time this is not true is if they use faction charity to be returned from the dead. If raised in other ways (eg. Tear of bahamut, raise dead cast by a PC/NPC, etc) they get rewards as normal.
#9 RCanine May 30, 2015 14:31:00	Right. When the player departs, I'd just calcuate the XP and gold earned to that point and divide it by three then create a new total for the rest of the adventure. I wouldn't give the departing PC XP for uncompleted quests. Adventures have a minimum XP, but I'm under the impression that minimum implies completion. EDIT: thinking about this, I probably wouldn't waste time doing math on XP. I'd award minmum XP; the secret truth about XP is that it's actually a penalty: the more XP you earn, the fewer adventures your character gets to play, and the fewer storytelling opportunities you have. So while someone could abuse this to level quickly, they're actually just cheating themselves.
#10 Noon May 31, 2015 4:15:13	Off topic, but where does it say a player who's PC dies has to stay out of play, rather than bring in another character they've made or a pregen as soon as the DM can manage it?
#11 shivafang May 31, 2015 6:30:41	RCanine wrote:
#12 RCanine May 31, 2015 8:37:06	Noon wrote:
(Reply to #10) Nevvur	Noon wrote:
#14 Kalani May 31, 2015 11:13:50	Noon wrote:
#15 Noon May 31, 2015 16:01:17	Seriously? With all the 'it's all about the fun' people have the idea to insist a dead PC is still in play and so the player just sits there? Or as if a dead character is still being 'played' and you couldn't possibly bring in another until its revived? It's like you're actively looking for ways to make AL less fun! It's further continues to put me off running anything AL - it ends up like some Jack Chick parody "You're dead, Marcy! You can't play!"
#16 RCanine May 31, 2015 18:58:39	Noon wrote:
#17 CoreyartustheSecond May 31, 2015 19:14:04	Just out of curiosity (I have no idea if this is logistically legal), but could a party haul the dead PC to an appropriate faction "connection" (if possible) or powerful NPC and get him Rezzed mid-game? That would enable the player to continue playing, even though he wouldn't get XP for anything after that... I mean, the player is going to have to record the mod as played anyway for that PC--at least they'd have something to do. Is that legal? When a player goes down, do they stay down until the end of that mod's session? Is purchasing the appropriate Ressurection spell or asking for faction-charity only an end-game thing? I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be, I'm just curious. Could this be an option to help those with nothing to do, or is it a no-go?
#18 Kalani May 31, 2015 20:14:01	If you are in town - sure. It's very appropriate. The only restriction is that you need to be in a centre of civilization of sufficient size to offer spell casting services. If the party pays for the Rez - the character isn't even prevented from gaining treasure or XP. Such rewards are forfeit as part of faction charity only. If u get faction charity mid game - I don't see why u can't complete the adventure for the fun (you still forfeit the rewards however).
(Reply to #10) Pauper	Noon wrote:
#20 Noon Jun 01, 2015 17:15:50	Pauper wrote:
#21 RCanine Jun 01, 2015 21:25:00	Noon wrote:
(Reply to #20) QwertyAzerty	Noon wrote:
#23 reddaemon Jun 02, 2015 11:09:27	If you are concerned about potentially dying and having to sit at the table without doing anything, purchase 300gp of diamond dust and if you have a caster in your party that can cast it, ask them to prepare revivify in case you die. I also very very rarely see anyone die anyway (I've only seen an actual character death once since the game was released). I would not allow somebody to play a different character than what they came to the table with since that would effectively be playing with more than one character. Both characters would gain rewards from the adventure and the ALPG strictly forbids it.
#24 Kalani Jun 02, 2015 11:10:31	That and it doubles your chances of a magic item.
#25 Avross Jun 02, 2015 13:44:52	reddaemon wrote:
#26 Nevvur Jun 02, 2015 13:59:22	Yeah, Avross, it was very nearly the same situation where I let the player bring in another character after his first died early on. I trust my own judgement to distinguish between an exploiter and a hapless player.
#27 BRJN Jun 02, 2015 14:07:44	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #24) TheBreen	Kalani wrote:
#29 Noon Jun 02, 2015 18:10:44	RCanine wrote:
#30 Noon Jun 02, 2015 18:16:03	reddaemon wrote:
#31 Kalani Jun 02, 2015 20:17:02	The reason is simple. Because dead characters still earn full awards for the adventure (even the parts they are dead in).
#32 Noon Jun 03, 2015 4:15:27	Kalani wrote:
#33 reddaemon Jun 03, 2015 7:22:21	Noon wrote:
#34 Nevvur Jun 03, 2015 10:03:11	I abide by the ALPG as closely as possible, but stringency on the minimum XP is one point on which I diverge. I have run split session Expeditions where players were not present for one session or the other. I have had players leave early. I have had a character die and the player bring in another. In all these cases, I only awarded XP for what the character actually did. In all but one case (my bad, inexperience at the time) I forewarned the players they would still need to enter the adventure on their session log, and they could not run it again with that character. In all cases, the players accepted it without objection. Why? I suspect because they all had fun despite the XP penalty. I believe character portability and consistency among tables is important, but not the Prime Directive. The day my RC sends a Cease and Desist letter outlining my offenses is the day I'll stop running Expeditions. Not tooting my own horn here, but the loss of a DM is a bigger consequence for the local gaming scene than some PCs running around with questionable session logs (which other DMs are free to refute anyway).
(Reply to #29) Pauper	Noon wrote:
#36 Kalani Jun 03, 2015 11:24:55	I will rephrase. Short Answer: Characters which die earn full share of XP for the adventure (assuming they do not partake of faction charity). Long Answer: At the end of an adventure in which one or more characters are "dead" (and were not raised during the adventure via party spellcasting or in-game spellcasting services), one of two things occurs: Faction Charity: L1-4 characters can be raised for free. Doing so forfeits their share of XP, Downtime, Renown, and Treasure. It is unclear whether such characters forfeit any enmity or favors earned. It is also unclear whether the character forfeits these rewards before or after such rewards are divided by the party (I assume before, but it is not explicitly stated). Character remains "dead" (temp/perm): The character earns a full share of XP, treasure, DT and renown (including a possible magic item). Once all rewards are calculated, the character can then be raised via raise dead as a downtime spellcasting service (costs 1 DT day in addition to the cost of raise dead). Other party members can contribute to the costs of this spell, but are not obligated to do so. If the character is not raised from the dead, they remain permanently dead - but still earned a full share of XP and treasure for the adventure. It is possible that future rewards may allow the dead character to be raised after the fact (such as the tear of bahamut or similar item), which the character could then "spend" on their deceased character.
#37 Pauper Jun 03, 2015 11:29:07	I agree with this, but still would not give combat XP for encounters after the one in which the character died, as the character is not participating in those combat encounters. However, if not giving combat XP causes the character's XP award to fall below the minimum XP for the module, I'd award the minimum. -- Pauper Edit: The ALPG says "Generally, you'll award XP for combat by dividing up the total XP value of the monsters defeated by the number of characters in the party." (p.11) Generally does not mean always. It's certainly easier to divide the total 'monster XP' by the number of characters who played the adventure, but the rule doesn't prohibit you from calculating each combat separately based on the number of characters participting in each combat.
#38 Kalani Jun 03, 2015 11:31:07	Pauper wrote:
(Reply to #38) Pauper	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #39) QwertyAzerty	Pauper wrote:
#41 Kalani Jun 03, 2015 11:51:04	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #41) Pauper	Kalani wrote:
#43 Kalani Jun 03, 2015 11:59:12	In respect to the discussion regarding XP and treasure awards - this is covered on p11-12 of the ALPG. Specifically the following: Awarding Experience Points Award XP as noted at the conclusion of the session, episode, or adventure. Generally, you’ll award XP for combat by dividing up the total XP value of the monsters defeated by the number of characters in the party. For noncombat XP, you’ll award the value noted to each character who earned it unless otherwise specified in the adventure. Awarding Gold and Mundane Treasure Coin, art objects, trade goods, and other found wealth are converted to a gold piece (gp) value at the conclusion of a session, episode, or adventure, which is then divided by the number of characters in the party. Each character should earn an equal share unless otherwise specified. Nonmagical equipment (such as arms, armor, and other gear) can be sold for half its cost to add to the total gp value. Arms and armor taken from defeated monsters is worthless and cannot be sold unless specified in the adventure (the party can use the items during the session in which they are found, though). As a general rule of thumb, if an item is part of a monster’s statistics, it’s not sellable.
(Reply to #40) Pauper	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #43) Pauper	Kalani wrote:
#46 Kalani Jun 03, 2015 12:13:53	Actually, when discussed with the campaign staff - the opposite was determined. Wingwear are permanent items. Even once the last charge is expended, they remain on your character sheet permanently as per the following rule from the website. Robert and several of the other admins weighed in on the discussion and agreed that the items were permanent (and not consumable). If a magic item becomes “broken” it still counts against your permanent item tally on your log sheet. It served you well while it was able to. The rule regarding consumable items was brought up, but it was discarded due to the fact that the Wingwear can be recharged. The fact that the party lacks access to a recharging station is an irrelevant detail. It is no more a consumable item than a Car is... The fact that you lack fuel for your car (and are unable to use it), does not change the fact that the car is a permanent item. Once the last charge is expended, wingwear remains a rechargable item with no charges. It is effectively "broken" until recharged. Another factor that must be considered, is the fact that the certificates list them as permanent items as well (compared against Keogothms ointments).
#47 Noon Jun 03, 2015 16:12:22	reddaemon wrote:
#48 Noon Jun 03, 2015 16:24:45	Kalani wrote:
#49 Noon Jun 03, 2015 16:34:17	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #40) TheBreen	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #39) TheBreen	Pauper wrote:
#52 RCanine Jun 03, 2015 20:34:45	TheBreen wrote:
(Reply to #52) TheBreen	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #49) Pauper	Noon wrote:
#55 imaginaryfriend Jun 04, 2015 14:21:23	Im much more interested in how he'd intend to kill himself. There would totally have to be divine intervention. Sure, he'd get XP, but the other players at the tabel would get regular updates on the scene of the dead-ish PC being berated by the intervening deity in many creative ways. Heck the deity might even sollicit advice from the remaining players as I am sure they have a horse in that race...
#56 reddaemon Jun 05, 2015 12:50:55	Noon wrote:
(Reply to #55) Pauper	imaginaryfriend wrote:
#58 BRJN Jun 05, 2015 18:15:44	Pauper wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Nevvur

May 29, 2015 13:25:42

Something comes up where one or more players has to leave before completing an Expeditions module, reducing the table to 2 players and a DM. How do you proceed?

This is not a regular occurrence with repeat offenders. It's happened twice in three months, and both cases involved different players, but I could use some guidance on what to do if it happens again.

CoreyartustheSecond

May 29, 2015 14:29:45

Nevvur wrote:

Pauper

May 29, 2015 14:42:48

Nevvur wrote:

RCanine

May 29, 2015 21:33:26

CoreyartustheSecond wrote:

(Reply to #4)

Nevvur

RCanine wrote:

(Reply to #4)

CoreyartustheSecond

RCanine wrote:

reddaemon

May 30, 2015 7:57:58

I don't think anyone suggested that leaving early results in dying. That would be ridiculous. It was merely suggested that if someone dies at a table of 3, the game doesn't stop, so it shouldn't stop if someone leaves early. There's nothing to be abused because nobody can just kill characters if a player leaves early. You simply split the treasure that has been earned so far, award them minimum xp, and wish them a good night (this is how I have handled it in the past).

Kalani

May 30, 2015 9:01:46

Characters which die earn XP and treasure as normal. The only time this is not true is if they use faction charity to be returned from the dead. If raised in other ways (eg. Tear of bahamut, raise dead cast by a PC/NPC, etc) they get rewards as normal.

RCanine

May 30, 2015 14:31:00

Right. When the player departs, I'd just calcuate the XP and gold earned to that point and divide it by three then create a new total for the rest of the adventure. I wouldn't give the departing PC XP for uncompleted quests. Adventures have a minimum XP, but I'm under the impression that minimum implies completion.

EDIT: thinking about this, I probably wouldn't waste time doing math on XP. I'd award minmum XP; the secret truth about XP is that it's actually a penalty: the more XP you earn, the fewer adventures your character gets to play, and the fewer storytelling opportunities you have. So while someone could abuse this to level quickly, they're actually just cheating themselves.

#10

Noon

May 31, 2015 4:15:13

Off topic, but where does it say a player who's PC dies has to stay out of play, rather than bring in another character they've made or a pregen as soon as the DM can manage it?

#11

shivafang

May 31, 2015 6:30:41

RCanine wrote:

#12

RCanine

May 31, 2015 8:37:06

Noon wrote:

(Reply to #10)

Nevvur

Noon wrote:

#14

Kalani

May 31, 2015 11:13:50

Noon wrote:

#15

Noon

May 31, 2015 16:01:17

Seriously? With all the 'it's all about the fun' people have the idea to insist a dead PC is still in play and so the player just sits there? Or as if a dead character is still being 'played' and you couldn't possibly bring in another until its revived?

It's like you're actively looking for ways to make AL less fun! It's further continues to put me off running anything AL - it ends up like some Jack Chick parody "You're dead, Marcy! You can't play!"

#16

RCanine

May 31, 2015 18:58:39

Noon wrote:

#17

CoreyartustheSecond

May 31, 2015 19:14:04

Just out of curiosity (I have no idea if this is logistically legal), but could a party haul the dead PC to an appropriate faction "connection" (if possible) or powerful NPC and get him Rezzed mid-game? That would enable the player to continue playing, even though he wouldn't get XP for anything after that... I mean, the player is going to have to record the mod as played anyway for that PC--at least they'd have something to do. Is that legal? When a player goes down, do they stay down until the end of that mod's session? Is purchasing the appropriate Ressurection spell or asking for faction-charity only an end-game thing? I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be, I'm just curious. Could this be an option to help those with nothing to do, or is it a no-go?

#18

Kalani

May 31, 2015 20:14:01

If you are in town - sure. It's very appropriate. The only restriction is that you need to be in a centre of civilization of sufficient size to offer spell casting services. If the party pays for the Rez - the character isn't even prevented from gaining treasure or XP. Such rewards are forfeit as part of faction charity only.

If u get faction charity mid game - I don't see why u can't complete the adventure for the fun (you still forfeit the rewards however).

(Reply to #10)

Pauper

Noon wrote:

#20

Noon

Jun 01, 2015 17:15:50

Pauper wrote:

#21

RCanine

Jun 01, 2015 21:25:00

Noon wrote:

(Reply to #20)

QwertyAzerty

Noon wrote:

#23

reddaemon

Jun 02, 2015 11:09:27

If you are concerned about potentially dying and having to sit at the table without doing anything, purchase 300gp of diamond dust and if you have a caster in your party that can cast it, ask them to prepare revivify in case you die. I also very very rarely see anyone die anyway (I've only seen an actual character death once since the game was released). I would not allow somebody to play a different character than what they came to the table with since that would effectively be playing with more than one character. Both characters would gain rewards from the adventure and the ALPG strictly forbids it.

#24

Kalani

Jun 02, 2015 11:10:31

That and it doubles your chances of a magic item.

#25

Avross

Jun 02, 2015 13:44:52

reddaemon wrote:

#26

Nevvur

Jun 02, 2015 13:59:22

Yeah, Avross, it was very nearly the same situation where I let the player bring in another character after his first died early on. I trust my own judgement to distinguish between an exploiter and a hapless player.

#27

BRJN

Jun 02, 2015 14:07:44

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #24)

TheBreen

Kalani wrote:

#29

Noon

Jun 02, 2015 18:10:44

RCanine wrote:

#30

Noon

Jun 02, 2015 18:16:03

reddaemon wrote:

#31

Kalani

Jun 02, 2015 20:17:02

The reason is simple. Because dead characters still earn full awards for the adventure (even the parts they are dead in).

#32

Noon

Jun 03, 2015 4:15:27

Kalani wrote:

#33

reddaemon

Jun 03, 2015 7:22:21

Noon wrote:

#34

Nevvur

Jun 03, 2015 10:03:11

I abide by the ALPG as closely as possible, but stringency on the minimum XP is one point on which I diverge.

I have run split session Expeditions where players were not present for one session or the other. I have had players leave early. I have had a character die and the player bring in another. In all these cases, I only awarded XP for what the character actually did. In all but one case (my bad, inexperience at the time) I forewarned the players they would still need to enter the adventure on their session log, and they could not run it again with that character.

In all cases, the players accepted it without objection. Why? I suspect because they all had fun despite the XP penalty. I believe character portability and consistency among tables is important, but not the Prime Directive. The day my RC sends a Cease and Desist letter outlining my offenses is the day I'll stop running Expeditions. Not tooting my own horn here, but the loss of a DM is a bigger consequence for the local gaming scene than some PCs running around with questionable session logs (which other DMs are free to refute anyway).

(Reply to #29)

Pauper

Noon wrote:

#36

Kalani

Jun 03, 2015 11:24:55

I will rephrase.

Short Answer: Characters which die earn full share of XP for the adventure (assuming they do not partake of faction charity).

Long Answer: At the end of an adventure in which one or more characters are "dead" (and were not raised during the adventure via party spellcasting or in-game spellcasting services), one of two things occurs:

Faction Charity: L1-4 characters can be raised for free. Doing so forfeits their share of XP, Downtime, Renown, and Treasure. It is unclear whether such characters forfeit any enmity or favors earned. It is also unclear whether the character forfeits these rewards before or after such rewards are divided by the party (I assume before, but it is not explicitly stated).
Character remains "dead" (temp/perm): The character earns a full share of XP, treasure, DT and renown (including a possible magic item). Once all rewards are calculated, the character can then be raised via raise dead as a downtime spellcasting service (costs 1 DT day in addition to the cost of raise dead). Other party members can contribute to the costs of this spell, but are not obligated to do so.

If the character is not raised from the dead, they remain permanently dead - but still earned a full share of XP and treasure for the adventure. It is possible that future rewards may allow the dead character to be raised after the fact (such as the tear of bahamut or similar item), which the character could then "spend" on their deceased character.

#37

Pauper

Jun 03, 2015 11:29:07

I agree with this, but still would not give combat XP for encounters after the one in which the character died, as the character is not participating in those combat encounters. However, if not giving combat XP causes the character's XP award to fall below the minimum XP for the module, I'd award the minimum.

Pauper

Edit: The ALPG says "Generally, you'll award XP for combat by dividing up the total XP value of the monsters defeated by the number of characters in the party." (p.11) Generally does not mean always.

It's certainly easier to divide the total 'monster XP' by the number of characters who played the adventure, but the rule doesn't prohibit you from calculating each combat separately based on the number of characters participting in each combat.

#38

Kalani

Jun 03, 2015 11:31:07

Pauper wrote:

(Reply to #38)

Pauper

Kalani wrote:

(Reply to #39)

QwertyAzerty

Pauper wrote:

#41

Kalani

Jun 03, 2015 11:51:04

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #41)

Pauper

Kalani wrote:

#43

Kalani

Jun 03, 2015 11:59:12

In respect to the discussion regarding XP and treasure awards - this is covered on p11-12 of the ALPG. Specifically the following:

Awarding Experience Points
Award XP as noted at the conclusion of the session, episode, or adventure. Generally, you’ll award XP for combat by dividing up the total XP value of the monsters defeated by the number of characters in the party. For noncombat XP, you’ll award the value noted to each character who earned it unless otherwise specified in the adventure.

Awarding Gold and Mundane Treasure
Coin, art objects, trade goods, and other found wealth are converted to a gold piece (gp) value at the conclusion of a session, episode, or adventure, which is then divided by the number of characters in the party. Each character should earn an equal share unless otherwise specified.

Nonmagical equipment (such as arms, armor, and other gear) can be sold for half its cost to add to the total gp value. Arms and armor taken from defeated monsters is worthless and cannot be sold unless specified in the adventure (the party can use the items during the session in which they are found, though). As a general rule of thumb, if an item is part of a monster’s statistics, it’s not sellable.

(Reply to #40)

Pauper

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #43)

Pauper

Kalani wrote:

#46

Kalani

Jun 03, 2015 12:13:53

Actually, when discussed with the campaign staff - the opposite was determined. Wingwear are permanent items. Even once the last charge is expended, they remain on your character sheet permanently as per the following rule from the website. Robert and several of the other admins weighed in on the discussion and agreed that the items were permanent (and not consumable).

If a magic item becomes “broken” it still counts against your permanent item tally on your log sheet. It served you well while it was able to.

The rule regarding consumable items was brought up, but it was discarded due to the fact that the Wingwear can be recharged. The fact that the party lacks access to a recharging station is an irrelevant detail. It is no more a consumable item than a Car is... The fact that you lack fuel for your car (and are unable to use it), does not change the fact that the car is a permanent item.

Once the last charge is expended, wingwear remains a rechargable item with no charges. It is effectively "broken" until recharged.

Another factor that must be considered, is the fact that the certificates list them as permanent items as well (compared against Keogothms ointments).

#47

Noon

Jun 03, 2015 16:12:22

reddaemon wrote:

#48

Noon

Jun 03, 2015 16:24:45

Kalani wrote:

#49

Noon

Jun 03, 2015 16:34:17

Kalani wrote:

(Reply to #40)

TheBreen

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #39)

TheBreen

Pauper wrote:

#52

RCanine

Jun 03, 2015 20:34:45

TheBreen wrote:

(Reply to #52)

TheBreen

RCanine wrote:

(Reply to #49)

Pauper

Noon wrote:

#55

imaginaryfriend

Jun 04, 2015 14:21:23

Im much more interested in how he'd intend to kill himself.

There would totally have to be divine intervention. Sure, he'd get XP, but the other players at the tabel would get regular updates on the scene of the dead-ish PC being berated by the intervening deity in many creative ways. Heck the deity might even sollicit advice from the remaining players as I am sure they have a horse in that race...

#56

reddaemon

Jun 05, 2015 12:50:55

Noon wrote:

(Reply to #55)

Pauper

imaginaryfriend wrote:

#58

BRJN

Jun 05, 2015 18:15:44

Pauper wrote: