Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ainulindalion Apr 29, 2015 14:03:40	This thread will contain spoilers for PotA.               On pg 171, rewards are granted which are left completely up to DM discretion, and which could easily cause breakage in an AL game where the public DM was not aware of the reward.   Specifically, the reward grants a 'supernatural charm' (as explained in the DMG) that mimics a "potion or spell of your choice" as "appropriate to the character and the source".  I could see that getting exploited really easily.     Also, pg 202. Elizar Dryflagon has the ability to summon smoke mephits by puffing his pipe.  Is his pipe a magical item that summons smoke mephits, or is this an inherent ability of Mr. Dryflagon?  The module doesn't mention his +1 Dagger in the treasure section of the actual story, which is why I ask.   Since both of these shouldn't come up for any group playing PotA soon, I thought maybe they could get hashed out before it started to matter.
#2 Oraibi Apr 30, 2015 20:43:32	Good questions!   For the second one, I'd just assume it's one of the abilities of the creature and not a magic item.   I have no good answer for the first one. Maybe it should allow you to summon Hazirawn, because that will never cause confusion from an insufficiently documented item!
#3 Ainulindalion May 01, 2015 7:58:38	Yeah, you'd think so.  But it very clearly takes him an action to puff on his pipe to summon the mephits, and it doesn't recharge until after a long rest.  And he can cast plenty of spells otherwise.   It feels like a magic item in the description.  Whether or not it is... it's not listed in the treasure section of the adventure where they explain new magic items, but then, it doesn't really need explaining (it's fully explained in the text of the monster).   As for the charms...   Some of the charms actually described in the DMG are really powerful (multicast greater restoration, for example) while others aren't nearly so much.   I would figure something like "The charm, as granted, can duplicate the effect of casting 1 3rd-level or lower spell, once, or the effect of an uncommon or common potion, once.  If the reward is doubled, it can perform this twice, as mentioned in the text."   I picked 3rd-level or lower spells because it's a 6th-level side quest, and uncommon potions mostly duplicate the effects of 3rd level or lower spells.
#4 Ainulindalion May 09, 2015 18:55:02	Should I just assume this is being looked at along with the other various things which cause 'chaos and panic' in the adventure (such as the side quest that generates potentially unlimited magic item(s)) or what?   I only ask, cause one of my groups could potentially encounter at least 1 of these next time we play.
#5 AlHazred Jun 01, 2015 12:46:12	Was there a ruling on the supernatural charms?
(Reply to #5) Ainulindalion	AlHazred wrote:
#7 MasterNamer Jun 05, 2015 11:57:23	This should be addressed by an AL admin, or a post on the AL webpage before too many people end up with items and charms that may end up being removed after the fact.
(Reply to #7) Ainulindalion	MasterNamer wrote:
#9 Ainulindalion Jun 11, 2015 15:38:55	I'm still hoping for some sort of official answers on this, at least with the regard to the supernatural charms.   Obviously, the default ruling for the Mephit Pipe and the any magic you want (from the level 10 side quest, not mentioned in my OP) would be that "No permanent magic items that aren't explicit in the text".  So I'm assuming that'll be the case.   But when I see someone turn up with a level 6 or 7 character with two uses of Wish because no one's bothered to make a ruling, it's going to be ugly at that table.
#10 ZHDarkstar Jun 17, 2015 11:50:42	And here is yet another case of the AL having to support material made without regard to AL consequences.   Until a formal ruling is made, I'm just going to skip it like every other DM discretion magic item treasure entry. It sucks for the players, but is also the least headache-inducing decision.
#11 Ainulindalion Jun 17, 2015 11:56:57	There's no evidence any ruling is forthcoming, unfortunately.
#12 Pauper Jun 17, 2015 12:47:39	I should be (finally) picking up my copy of PotA tonight and can take a closer look at the charm reward. But, presuming the text quoted above is accurate, I'd go with the following:   - The charm is awarded at the DM's discretion, so the DM isn't required to award it. Likewise, the DM isn't required to present the charm to the player as the player requests it, but she can if she thinks the player request is reasonable and won't unbalance the game.   - "Appropriate to the character and the source" suggests to me that the effect should be one that the character could generate legally if he were the appropriate class for his current level. So no wish charms, unless the character is already 17th level (since a 17th level wizard could cast wish). The spell should also come from a legal rules source for the character's storyline season -- most characters playing PotA are likely going to be Elemental Evil characters, so that's not much of a restriction, but if the encounter is played after the release of the Rage of Demons Player's Guide, no spells from that source could be used to create the charm, since that's not a legal rules source for Elemental Evil characters.   - The DMG doesn't present a formula for how to make a charm, but depending on what kind of charm the DM wants to give, looking for a similar charm that is described in the DMG should provide guidance on how to build it -- for example, the DM has a player whose character is unabashedly fond of the fey, and so thinks that a charm that allows the character to speak and understand the Sylvan language would be an appropriate and appreciated reward. Looking in the DMG, such a charm certainly is no more powerful (and possibly less powerful) than a charm of feather falling, and so the DM would create a charm of fey tongues that lasts for 10 (or more) days, at her option.   Hard-and-fast guidelines like the one suggested seem like a good idea, but simply provide knowledgable players with the parameters to min-max a charm option and convince the DM to allow it. Instead, I'd suggest that charms which have a significant combat value (such as the dragon-slaying or giant-slaying charm) should be significantly more limited in their use than charms that are either primarily or exclusively non-combat in their usage.   And, of course, if the DM wants to award a charm but doesn't want the headache of coming up with the details herself, she is welcome to award one of the charms listed in the Dungeon Master's Guide.   I realize this isn't official, but I hope it helps.   -- Pauper
#13 Ainulindalion Jun 17, 2015 13:31:09	Restoring the Barrow, pg 171 wrote:
#14 ZHDarkstar Jun 17, 2015 20:24:30	The main thing that I'm curious about is the +1 dagger that Elizar wields, because it's similar in nature to whether or not Cavil's +1 Wand of the War Mage is lootable.
#15 zingbobco000 Jun 17, 2015 21:51:03	Ainulindalion wrote:
#16 Pauper Jun 18, 2015 8:31:25	Having now read the section in question -- it's part of the 'side treks' the party can do during Chapter 6 -- the situation seems much simpler than originally described.   - The side quest is designed for 6th level characters, so the 'potion or spell' should be appropriate to that level of character. In that sense, the original guidance suggested by the OP is perfectly valid, but see also below. - 'Each charm can be used twice before vanishing', so two uses. If the charm primarily grants a non-combat ability, each 'use' should last a significant amount of time, in order to help make that ability seem as useful as a combat ability. - The 'source' is the spirit of a dead barbarian chieftain, so based on the 'Loved By A Cat' Principle (when a cat loves you, it gives you things it likes), the 'potion or spell' should probably be one considered useful to a barbarian, for example, a charm of conjure animals that can only be used to summon elk (since that's the tribe's totem animal). - It is possible that the charm might actually be imposed as a curse; the adventure notes that the reverse of the charm would be appropriate. A charm of enhance ability seems ideal for this purpose -- if reversed, the charm serves as a curse that applies disadvantage to the things the charm would have applied advantage to.   Finally, if the DM thinks the above is too vague or is too much work to be worth adjudicating the treasure award, the DM can simply choose to run a different side trek.   In general, the DM should not use sections of the D&D rules that the AL hasn't authorized -- so normally, a DM wouldn't be allowed to grant a charm as treasure, because that's in a part of the DMG that AL DMs aren't authorized to use in normal AL play. However, where an AL-legal adventure specifically directs the DM to use a portion of the rules she normally wouldn't be able to use (such as the rules for intelligent magic items in Horde of the Dragon Queen), the DM should consider herself authorized to make use of those rules in order to adjudicate the specific item in the adventure (such as Hazirawn). Specific beats general, after all, but this only applies where the AL hasn't already issued guidance on a particular question (for example, DMs can't turn the faction-specific side treks into AL Special Missions, because the AL FAQ notes that a DM can't do that).   As for Mr. Dryflagon, I would rule that his ability to summon mephits is a personal ability and not contained in his pipe, but if the party somehow became aware of that ability (say, from a previous encounter) and got his pipe away from him, he'd be unable to summon the mephits.   Wingwear has been argued in a different thread -- the gist of that discussion is that, if the DM decides that a particular Feathergale Knight is wearing wingwear, it can be taken as a permanent magic item, but there is currently no place in an AL adventure where the character can recharge the wingwear, so it would eventually take up a permanent magic item slot without being useful. (The same is technically true of the balloon pack, which I haven't seen discussed.)   It should also be noted that the section on p.147 is referring to a situation where the characters have engaged a Prince(ss) of Elemental Evil and been defeated, and therefore need assistance before engaging that enemy again -- it's not general advice to open the treasure vaults Monty Haul style.   -- Pauper
#17 Kalani Jun 18, 2015 9:25:59	Regarding wingwear - there are 6 wingwear certs in the adventure kit, yet I have not found a single entry where the item was specifically listed as treasure so far   . It is therefore my assumption that, like other items in previous adventures (HotDQ; eg. Tails' white dragonscale armor, which is listed as +1 scale in the adventure) - if it's listed in the creatures description, it is lootable even if not specifically listed as treasure.
(Reply to #16) Ainulindalion	Pauper wrote:
(Reply to #18) Pauper	Ainulindalion wrote:
#20 Ainulindalion Jun 18, 2015 11:12:28	2-9 Eye of the Tempest takes place at the Monastary of the Yellow Rose, specifically because the Air Cult is attempting a ritual, that as described in the adventure background, is meant to protect the newly formed air node that is there.   This strongly suggests that there is, in fact, an air node present, though I am unable to determine its precise location by reading the module.  (The monastary is... huge.)   -----   If I was running PotA as a purely home game, my rulings regarding these things would be as follows:   Wingwear:  All knights and other enemies described as potentially wearing wingwear (there are others in the random encounters table) who are on duty or official business would be encountered wearing wingwear.  If defeated via combat (ignoring debilitating, non-damaging effects), wingwear on these enemies would be useable on a d20 roll of 16+.  It would have d6/2 (round up, then subtract any used in combat, Max 3, Min 1) available charges.  In the Spire itself, sufficient fully charged wingwears could be located for 1/PC.   Supernatural Charms: Conjure Animals (Giant Elk or Elk only, unless character's background was barbarian related to another Uthgardt tribe, or PC was Barbarian/Totem/Single Animal Choice), Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce (Enlarge only), Pass without Trace, Alter Self (Natural Weapons Only, Elk Horns), Fear, Magic Weapon, Cure Wounds.  All spells cast at 3rd level, with Wisdom as spell casting ability, but may only target the person with the charm.   Dryflagon: The pipe requires attunement, and functions as Conjure Minor Elementals (Smoke Mephits, 4) once per day.  The mephits last the full summon time or until dismissed or destroyed (does not require concentration).  User must make a DC 10 Con Saving Throw each time they use the pipe or be incapacitated until the start of their turn 3 rounds later or until they make the saving throw at the end of their turn.  If the user adopts the habit of regularly smoking the pipe for an hour or more each day, they automatically succeed on the saving throw.   The +1 dagger is lootable as a +1 dagger.  It feels warm to the touch.   Rundreth Manor: The characters will be paid 250gp each, and can receive a spell scroll (8th level or lower) or any Potion from Magic Item Table D (in the DMG) each.  The characters can negotitate for a single uncommon or common magical item that does not require attunement.   -----   For AL, I would recommend:   Wingwear: Feathergale Knights and any Random Encounter monsters described as having wingwear have lootable wingwear, up to a maximum of 1/PC (subtract any PC that already has wingwear), and a maximum of 1/monster.  The wingwear is fully charged when a PC receives it.   Supernatural Charms: Any 3rd level or lower spell from the core Druid or Ranger spell lists in the PHB or EEPC, or any uncommon or common potion.  Each charm is useable a maximum of 1/long rest.  Spells are cast at 3rd level, with Wisdom as the spellcasting ability (minimum modifier +0).   Dryflagon: The pipe is an inherent ability to Dryflagon.  It is not lootable, except as a fancy pipe (worth 0 GP). The +1 dagger is lootable.  It has no special features.   Rundreth Manor: The party will receive 2000 gp, and a total of 4 8th level or lower spell scrolls and/or potions from Magic Item Table D.  This is a maximized average result for a CR 15 encounter.  My estimate of the encounter as combat is CR 15.  AL's estimate might be different, but I don't think would vary enough to change the Treasure Hoard table rolled on.
(Reply to #20) Pauper	Ainulindalion wrote:
#22 Ainulindalion Jun 18, 2015 12:14:38	I'd disagree that the DM isn't authorized to give out magic items there.  The section specifically references 'whatever coin and magic' is negotiated for.  Based off the hoard ruling for Rise of Tiamat, where DMs could give out consumable but not permanent magic items, I would say that successful negotiation should result in some sort of magic somethings.   The CR determination is entirely debatable depending on how you think the encounter should be resolved, so I won't argue that, but I don't think it's inconceivable that parties end up fighting the Dark Lady 'to prevent her from allying with the Cults', which I'm pretty sure is what the faction contact is worried about (I'm not looking at the text right now, so that could be wrong).
(Reply to #22) Pauper	Ainulindalion wrote:
#24 Ainulindalion Jun 18, 2015 13:18:24	Getting a bit far away from topic, but you have met the 'kick in the door, kill everything in sight (plus nuke the room to be sure), and question the dead' playstyle, right, Pauper?   Anyway, the exact rulings, CRs, and treasure options that apply can be endlessly debated for no gain whatsoever, and only distract from the need for some official commentary on the questions posed.
(Reply to #24) Pauper	Ainulindalion wrote:
#26 Ainulindalion Jun 18, 2015 14:40:19	Yes, the vast majority of the questions in this thread can be answered via actually thinking things through and more or less extrapolating previously stated Official Statements short of direct answers.  Direct answers would be better, of course.   I am most concerned about the Supernatural Charms, as I see the greatest potential for abuse there, especially as since it's a lower level side quest, I could see many more characters potentially going through it and being played publically.