Should I be 'rules lawyery' in AL? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Byakugan01 Dec 23, 2014 3:09:23	How should I handle it if I KNOW some rules are being implimented wrong in my tables AL game? I am new to 5e and AL, but I greatly appreciate the fact that the rules are supposed to be the rules that apply to everyone. The game is legit and were using logs and DCI numbers and certificates and everything, however I am pretty sure at least a few things are being played wrong. But the game is fun, and the GM is running a smooth game and keeping it interesting. In general we spend very little time looking up rules, and instead go with whatever the DM goes with and someone looks it up when its not their turn and we get it figured out. All is right with the world! But the rules lawyer in me wants to snatch up and eat some of the more glaring errors like a halfling dipped in Dragon Bar-B-Que sauce. The Warlock in our party seems to be very willy-nilly in interpreting his class features and spells. They all seem like plausible mistakes, so I dont think anyone is cheating...but... His character apparently started with an 18 CHA at 1st level, and has a 20 at 4th level with no magic items. As far as I can tell this is impossible to do with a legit character. Am I missing something? He said he used the 'point buy' method, but I know damn well point buy specifically only goes to max of 15 before his racial adjustment. I quietly pointed out the discrepency after I couldnt figure out how his attack bonus and save DC were so high and he told me his stat was a 20. He sits on the other side of the table from me now but his bonuses are the same. This annoys me more than anything else because it seems a little blatant and gives him a signifigant mechanical advantage over every other party member. He originally was casting Dissonant Whispers as an 60' unlimited target area affect. The first time he did it I asked about how many targets because I knew it said 1. He opened up his PHB looked at it and said it was multi-target so I shut up and the next 2 big groups of kobolds we encountered went poof. The DM caught this after a couple sessions and let the player know it didnt work like we had been using it and allowed him to select a different spell. He switched it out for the Vicious Mockery spell. He was scaling his false-life invocation to his 'slot level' and casting it at will, even though it specifically says its cast as a 1st level spell. I didnt notice this until he went to scale his racial spell ability to a higher level slot and I asked him how exactly the 'slot level' thing for warlocks worked. So he switched out his false life invocation for agonizing blast. He is using the Hex spell, and describing that it automatically applies disadvantage to saving throws...I am pretty sure that it only affects ability checks, and I know that saving throws are TIED to ability scores but are not ability checks themselves. Again, I asked sorta pointedly about this and he opened the book and looks at it and says yep thats how it works, so I shut up about it. It didn't really matter much until he started using hex on people then using Detect Thoughts on them and making it very hard for them to resist it. Then my last major nitpick is not for his character, but for the Drow Assasinate rogue in the party. He is allowed to use the Use an Item option with his cunning action, which I am pretty sure is wrong. It might not be a big deal except the introverted quiet guy that plays with us is playing aThief archetype rogue that is not at all min-maxed and he specifically HAS the ability that allows him to use an item and does not have the luxury of assasinate while the other player is doing both. I don't think anyone actually realizes this but me, but I am worried that eventually the one player will realize it and feel like he got cheated out of a lot of handfuls crit dice. The fighters and Barbarians probably dont mind this oversight because the assasin can tank more hits and still attack while quaffing potions. Are these things fairly common mistakes people make and I should just chill because the game is fun? I don't want to undermine anyone's characters but at the same time I feel a bit shoehorned because I try really hard to follow the RAW, guage spell ranges, use correct targetting, correctly apply long/short rest effects, -not make up my own version of obviously broken Evocation features, or changing the Observant feat so that it actually makes sense- etc... What are other people's opinions?
#2 guachi Dec 23, 2014 7:26:04	I play AL and I don't mind getting all rules lawyery. If people don't want to play by the rules, they shouldn't play in AL games.
#3 Kalani Dec 23, 2014 8:10:39	Regarding Unusual Ability Scores Your DM is empowered to correct any discrepencies on a player's character sheet or adventure log. The ALPG specifically calls out unsual stat arrays as an example of what can be changed. Being A Dungeon Master: Before Each Play Session (ALPG p10) If you have time, you can do a quick scan of a player’s character sheet to ensure that nothing looks out of order. If you see magic items of very high rarities or strange arrays of ability scores, you can ask players to provide documentation for the irregularities. If they cannot, feel free to restrict item use or ask them to use a standard ability score array. Point players to this guide for reference
#4 Pauper Dec 23, 2014 7:55:10	Also, with respect to the warlock, the ALPG has specific guidelines on what to do when a player is cheating -- and looking in the book and lying about what a spell or ability allows you to do definitely falls under the category of cheating. The drow assassin pretty much illustrates why you want to nip the cheating player in the bud, because his use of Cunning Action would seem to be specifically inspired by the warlock's creative interpretation of his own abilities. About all you can do, however, is to point out the actual rules to the DM and ask that he enforce them -- or take over as DM yourself and enforce them. Our group used to joke in Living Forgotten Realms days about the 'LFR Police' showing up and punishing players for breaking the campaign rules, but in a very real sense, the DM at the table is expected to be the 'AL Police'. If he won't enforce the game or setting rules, there's not much else you can do but find a better game. -- Pauper
#5 guachi Dec 23, 2014 9:48:46	In a new system, I don't expect everyone to know all the rules by heart. Personally, I don't mind if someone points out or corrects me, especially as DM. I don't have the time to look up every rule in the middle of combat. When if you are confident the player is cheating, you can say something like "the thief can do that with his cunning action, but the assassin can't"
#6 Jeraxle Dec 23, 2014 18:56:10	lvl 4 he does get a stat bonus of +2 so it is possible to get a 20, as for the point buy system if all his stats are base 8 or 10's it is possible to get an 18 to start but if your DM is concerned with the character he can "outlaw" the character. What race is he playing? Yes not everyone will knows the rules of a new system so it's easy for someone to make a mistake but if he is purposely "misreading" the rules I would call him out on it or crack own your copy of the PHB and read the spell at the table and put him on the spot and "call" him out for being the cheat that he is.
#7 guachi Dec 23, 2014 18:52:49	It's not possible through point buy or array to have an 18 ability score to start. 17 is the highest - 15 from array or buy and 2 from race. So at level 4 you could only have a 19 at the most.
(Reply to #7) Jeraxle	guachi wrote:
(Reply to #8) Undrhil	Jeraxle wrote:
#10 Jeraxle Dec 23, 2014 19:54:40	it's not starting starts at the end of every session you have the choice to tweak your character it can be done and it is legit per the AL rules, personally I am against it my Thief's highest ability is a 16( I also used the point system)
(Reply to #10) Undrhil	Jeraxle wrote:
(Reply to #10) Coredump00	Jeraxle wrote:
#13 Byakugan01 Dec 23, 2014 20:15:06	I know you can rebuild your characters till lv 4, but i am pretty sure you still have to follow the normal character creation guidelines. You can rearrange your base stat placement but you still can't have a 16 base stat before racial mod. You cant just subtract 1 from a 9 to make a 17 into an 18. That would lead to humans with like 3 starting 18s. For example my gnome had. 15 +2 int score and at 4th level the observant feat gave me an 18.
#14 Jeraxle Dec 23, 2014 20:20:45	Hey I am not saying what the guy has done is legit I am saying if he misunderstood the rules it is certainly possible he has made a mistake, but from info we have been given it certainly leads one to think he has circumvented the rules.
#15 Noon Dec 24, 2014 1:22:11	Pauper wrote:
(Reply to #13) Coredump00	Byakugan01 wrote:
#17 Avross Dec 24, 2014 5:00:41	We've got something similar at our table. One player 'extrapolated' the point buy system and has a 20 in his prime stat at 1st level. Two others showed up with characters that have nothing lower than 15s in all stats. A warlock was using Thamaturgy to blind dozens of foes. The primary DM is aware of it, and hasn't said anything, as he's just there to roll dice and keep the table going for the store. Once I figured that out, I pretty much just kicked back and enjoyed it for what it was. There's two questions to ask yourself: 1) Does it affect the enjoyment of anyone at the table. Is the character with the big stats or "creative" interpretation of a spell always stealing the show and the other players are essentially their sidekicks? 2) Do these players have any expectation that they will be able to play those characters at other tables or cons? If the answer to both of those questions is no... then don't worry about it. Tell the overpowered dragonborn barbarian with stupid high stats to hold offthe group of trolls and suck up all the damage while you focus on the leader. If it's impacting the enjoyment of people at the table...talk to the DM. Ask them if it's okay with them...if they aren't, they simply be uncomfortable dealing with it if they think they're alone. And if they are comfortable with it...then you know what kind of a table it is and can deal with it in a way that is best for you.
#18 Pauper Dec 24, 2014 7:37:44	Let's put it another way -- if these folks are likely to go to a major convention like GenCon or Winter Fantasy, they're going to get called out on their rules-bending there. It's much better for them if they correct their characters in a friendly environment than get the reputation for being clueless or worse. If they never go to a convention or another location to play Fifth Edition, then they may as well be playing a home game. This only becomes a problem if you want to play AL, in which case, finding a game where everyone plays by AL rules may be your best option, if possible. -- Pauper
#19 Avross Dec 24, 2014 7:38:59	Pauper wrote:
#20 BRJN Dec 24, 2014 11:53:57	As a player, I recommend each PC manually type up his character's abilities / powers / class features / spells / &c. This insures they read the rules carefully (to create the copy) and lessens mistakes. As a DM, I would ask all my players to do the above and give me a copy of the sheets. Then I can review their characters, too. At your table, you may need to discuss this with the DM away-from-table. Print off a copy of this thread and bring it along. If he doesn't care, you're stuck. As pointed out above, there are polite ways to correct a false interpretation / reading of the rules. If the 'cheater' is legitimately mistaken, he will take it in stride. (in 4e you COULD start with a 20 stat.) If the cheater is cheating deliberately, I expect him to react badly to being corrected, and even worse to being called out. Be prepared in case this breaks the table - but I hope it doesn't.
#21 Jeraxle Dec 25, 2014 11:52:13	So I was just re-reading the post and I guess I missed the part where you stated he started with an 18 Cha at first level, so yes I would call complete bull on his character. The opening the book to the page of the spell and saying "well that's how it works" then slamming it shut is childish, in response I would have my own copy at the table and then read out loud how the spell in fact works. The use item ability of the Rogue, from the way I read it you have the ability to drink a potion, use Thieve's tools, an instrument etc that is how I read it, it doesn't allow you to use the assassinate ability. Is it possible to find a new group to game with, one with player's who don't massage the rules to make munchkins? The last resort I would come up with is maybe meet the DM before a session and explain to him the problems that you think you've spotted and ask him "Am I over-reacting, because no one is gonna cheat so blatanly right?" Just my 2 cents.
#22 RCanine Jan 10, 2015 16:03:11	Byakugan01 wrote:
(Reply to #22) Undrhil	RCanine wrote:
#24 RCanine Jan 13, 2015 0:45:45	Undrhil wrote:
(Reply to #24) Undrhil	RCanine wrote:
#26 Jeraxle Jan 17, 2015 10:05:16	As an avid gamer for 30 years and only DMing for maybe 10 years I have a great appreciation to those of you who do DM yes every player/table has it unique situations. With WOTC bringing out spell cards for magic using classes I would suggest that the table as a whole pitch and buy a set so that way the opening the book and slamming it shut wouldn't happen again(hopefully) I still think the best option is to have a sit down with the DM and politely ask the player in question.
#27 Kalani Jan 17, 2015 10:59:21	Speaking of the Spellcasting cards - many of them are incomplete, especially in respect to listing whether the spell is concentration or not. As a rule however, I have noticed that any spell card whose duration says "up to a minute" is usually a concentration spell
#28 Jeraxle Jan 18, 2015 9:11:08	I think the spell cards are just a "short version" of what the spell does and yes I agree they are "incomplete" it doesn't say if it is a ritual or a concentration spell but it should solve the "well that's how the spell works" problem he was having with his group
#29 Oraibi Jan 18, 2015 20:36:33	The spell cards do say "ritual" for rituals.
#30 guachi Jan 19, 2015 17:41:56	Kalani wrote:
#31 Noon Jan 19, 2015 18:46:33	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #30) TheBreen	guachi wrote:
(Reply to #30) Pauper	guachi wrote:
#34 RCanine Jan 20, 2015 9:20:48	Noon wrote:
#35 Kalani Jan 20, 2015 11:44:08	RCanine wrote:
#36 Kalani Jan 20, 2015 9:59:55	*One thing I always say to my fellow DMs - and potential* DMs: It doesn't matter how well you do, all that matters is that you have a willingess to try, and a willingess to improve. You will always get better with time. The only thing you absolutely 100% must do in order to DM in organized play, is read and fully understand the "adventurer's league player's guide"** - in particular, your expectations as a DM. At which point I direct the individual to read the following supplementary article over on the adventurer's league website. DMing and DM empowerment This article goes into more detail about the expectations of an AL DM, and addresses most of the questions DMs have regarding houserules, optional rules in the DMG, etc.
#37 RCanine Jan 20, 2015 20:22:21	Kalani wrote:
#38 Cyberqat Jan 20, 2015 20:33:46	Are you the GM? If so then absolutely. If you are not, then unless the GM is specifically and directly violating AG rules its really none of your business. I recommened you take notes and tlak to your GM outside of GM time about things you think are being run wrong. But in the end it is his or her call. People who rueks kawyer during game are disruptive and as a GM I shut them down.
(Reply to #38) Undrhil	Cyberqat wrote:
(Reply to #39) Cyberqat	Undrhil wrote:
(Reply to #39) Pauper	Undrhil wrote:
(Reply to #2) Cyberqat	guachi wrote:
#43 guachi Jan 22, 2015 13:13:13	And a DM that repeatedly and consistenly refuses to follow rules or admit he's wrong because "he's the DM" and gets all high handed about it even if it's AL play just loses the respect of the players and then loses players. If a DM got all "I'm right because I'm the DM" (when he's obviously wrong) in an AL session I was playing, I'd be finding myself a new DM. I don't allow DM's to willingly and/or knowingly violate AL rules at the table. Period. Of any AL game I play in. Bad DMs who don't know the rules (that they are supposed to follow because it's AL) interfere with roleplay and generally detract from everyone else's fun. See? Works both ways. If the DM actually knew the rules in the first place there would be no need for me to be Rules Lawyery, now would there?
#44 Kalani Jan 22, 2015 13:20:31	There is a difference between the DM making blatant houserules, and making *rulings* which you may/may not agree with. 5E has many grey/ambiguous rules which require DM interpretation. AL DMs can interpret such rules however they see fit, and can also make a variety of other rulings on the fly as required, or they see fit. They cannot however, overrule/change the rules as written in the PHB, or the Adventurer's League Player's Guide, nor can they add/subtract/substitute rules, encounters, items, treasure, or other awards. They can however add/subtract monsters of the same kind as found in a specific encounter however.
#45 Coredump00 Jan 22, 2015 14:54:31	eh..... I know our DMs have 'broken' the rules. I'm not always sure if they know, but I do know I haven't really cared. The goal is to have fun, and they are facilitating that, if that means some rules get...nudged... I'm not concerned. I can understand getting upset at some things, but I wouldn't want to get all black and white with the rules. The reality is, the vast majority of players at our store will never play AL anywhwere else but at that store. There are a few 'hardcore' folks, mostly the DMs, the rest... not so much. A couple may to to a local con.... but maybe not. TBH, I have more trouble with their 'legal rulings' then their 'illegal rule changes'.
#46 RCanine Jan 22, 2015 23:07:18	guachi wrote:
(Reply to #43) Cyberqat	guachi wrote:
#48 EthanSental Jan 23, 2015 14:23:38	Reading the various responses, we are getting answer from both sides of the fence for the OP to follow. Yes be a rules lawyer and no don't. I'd be curious what he decides to do. In the end he will have to decide what course of action to take and it will be based on his viewpoint / enjoyment of the game. Keep us updated with what you decide and the outcome please. My response -do what you think is best for your enjoyment of the game, right or wrong is too subjective as seen in the resposnses but at least your decision fits in how you enjoy the game.
#49 Cyberqat Jan 25, 2015 11:18:46	Short answer and bottom line to the original question is NO. Not uless your GM allows it. The GM is still master of the gametable and final arbiter of rules. My regional coordinator sent me at this in regards to a rules question... ==================================================================================== Bottom line, there is a lot of leeway granted to a DM when there is no clear ruling on a question. The best suggestion I found for Hazirawn is the first response to this post: http://community.wizards.com/.../dd.../threads/4167766 Essentially, the DM who awards Hazirawn should document how they feel it should be used (fill in the missing pieces, like abilities, senses, ideals, bonds and flaws). Write all this down on a DM's note that the player can keep with their character. When playing with a new DM, the player should offer the note, and the new DM is free to take the advice and use it as-is, or may choose to alter it. That's kind of option (2) in your original question, but further fleshed out to cover roleplay features as well.
#50 Noon Jan 25, 2015 15:12:36	RCanine wrote:
(Reply to #50) Cyberqat	Noon wrote:
#52 Pauper Jan 26, 2015 7:49:02	As a DM, I actually appreciate when a player points out a rule that I'm unaware of or unclear on. I also appreciate players who are stone-cold on the rules that impact their own character's features and abilities. I also appreciate players who realize that, when I as DM disagree with how they've interpreted a given rule, my interpretation stands for the current game session. Be a rules lawyer, but also know when not to be. -- Pauper

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Byakugan01

Dec 23, 2014 3:09:23

How should I handle it if I KNOW some rules are being implimented wrong in my tables AL game?

I am new to 5e and AL, but I greatly appreciate the fact that the rules are supposed to be the rules that apply to everyone. The game is legit and were using logs and DCI numbers and certificates and everything, however I am pretty sure at least a few things are being played wrong. But the game is fun, and the GM is running a smooth game and keeping it interesting. In general we spend very little time looking up rules, and instead go with whatever the DM goes with and someone looks it up when its not their turn and we get it figured out. All is right with the world!

But the rules lawyer in me wants to snatch up and eat some of the more glaring errors like a halfling dipped in Dragon Bar-B-Que sauce.

The Warlock in our party seems to be very willy-nilly in interpreting his class features and spells. They all seem like plausible mistakes, so I dont think anyone is cheating...but...

His character apparently started with an 18 CHA at 1st level, and has a 20 at 4th level with no magic items. As far as I can tell this is impossible to do with a legit character. Am I missing something? He said he used the 'point buy' method, but I know damn well point buy specifically only goes to max of 15 before his racial adjustment. I quietly pointed out the discrepency after I couldnt figure out how his attack bonus and save DC were so high and he told me his stat was a 20. He sits on the other side of the table from me now but his bonuses are the same. This annoys me more than anything else because it seems a little blatant and gives him a signifigant mechanical advantage over every other party member.

He originally was casting Dissonant Whispers as an 60' unlimited target area affect. The first time he did it I asked about how many targets because I knew it said 1. He opened up his PHB looked at it and said it was multi-target so I shut up and the next 2 big groups of kobolds we encountered went poof. The DM caught this after a couple sessions and let the player know it didnt work like we had been using it and allowed him to select a different spell. He switched it out for the Vicious Mockery spell.

He was scaling his false-life invocation to his 'slot level' and casting it at will, even though it specifically says its cast as a 1st level spell. I didnt notice this until he went to scale his racial spell ability to a higher level slot and I asked him how exactly the 'slot level' thing for warlocks worked. So he switched out his false life invocation for agonizing blast.

He is using the Hex spell, and describing that it automatically applies disadvantage to saving throws...I am pretty sure that it only affects ability checks, and I know that saving throws are TIED to ability scores but are not ability checks themselves. Again, I asked sorta pointedly about this and he opened the book and looks at it and says yep thats how it works, so I shut up about it. It didn't really matter much until he started using hex on people then using Detect Thoughts on them and making it very hard for them to resist it.

Then my last major nitpick is not for his character, but for the Drow Assasinate rogue in the party. He is allowed to use the Use an Item option with his cunning action, which I am pretty sure is wrong. It might not be a big deal except the introverted quiet guy that plays with us is playing aThief archetype rogue that is not at all min-maxed and he specifically HAS the ability that allows him to use an item and does not have the luxury of assasinate while the other player is doing both. I don't think anyone actually realizes this but me, but I am worried that eventually the one player will realize it and feel like he got cheated out of a lot of handfuls crit dice. The fighters and Barbarians probably dont mind this oversight because the assasin can tank more hits and still attack while quaffing potions.

Are these things fairly common mistakes people make and I should just chill because the game is fun? I don't want to undermine anyone's characters but at the same time I feel a bit shoehorned because I try really hard to follow the RAW, guage spell ranges, use correct targetting, correctly apply long/short rest effects, -not make up my own version of obviously broken Evocation features, or changing the Observant feat so that it actually makes sense- etc...

What are other people's opinions?

guachi

Dec 23, 2014 7:26:04

I play AL and I don't mind getting all rules lawyery. If people don't want to play by the rules, they shouldn't play in AL games.

Kalani

Dec 23, 2014 8:10:39

Regarding Unusual Ability Scores

Your DM is empowered to correct any discrepencies on a player's character sheet or adventure log. The ALPG specifically calls out unsual stat arrays as an example of what can be changed.

Being A Dungeon Master: Before Each Play Session (ALPG p10)
If you have time, you can do a quick scan of a player’s character sheet to ensure that nothing looks out of order. If you see magic items of very high rarities or strange arrays of ability scores, you can ask players to provide documentation for the irregularities. If they cannot, feel free to restrict item use or ask them to use a standard ability score array. Point players to this guide for reference

Pauper

Dec 23, 2014 7:55:10

Also, with respect to the warlock, the ALPG has specific guidelines on what to do when a player is cheating -- and looking in the book and lying about what a spell or ability allows you to do definitely falls under the category of cheating.

The drow assassin pretty much illustrates why you want to nip the cheating player in the bud, because his use of Cunning Action would seem to be specifically inspired by the warlock's creative interpretation of his own abilities.

About all you can do, however, is to point out the actual rules to the DM and ask that he enforce them -- or take over as DM yourself and enforce them. Our group used to joke in Living Forgotten Realms days about the 'LFR Police' showing up and punishing players for breaking the campaign rules, but in a very real sense, the DM at the table is expected to be the 'AL Police'. If he won't enforce the game or setting rules, there's not much else you can do but find a better game.

Pauper

guachi

Dec 23, 2014 9:48:46

In a new system, I don't expect everyone to know all the rules by heart. Personally, I don't mind if someone points out or corrects me, especially as DM. I don't have the time to look up every rule in the middle of combat. When if you are confident the player is cheating, you can say something like "the thief can do that with his cunning action, but the assassin can't"

Jeraxle

Dec 23, 2014 18:56:10

lvl 4 he does get a stat bonus of +2 so it is possible to get a 20, as for the point buy system if all his stats are base 8 or 10's it is possible to get an 18 to start but if your DM is concerned with the character he can "outlaw" the character. What race is he playing?

Yes not everyone will knows the rules of a new system so it's easy for someone to make a mistake but if he is purposely "misreading" the rules I would call him out on it or crack own your copy of the PHB and read the spell at the table and put him on the spot and "call" him out for being the cheat that he is.

guachi

Dec 23, 2014 18:52:49

It's not possible through point buy or array to have an 18 ability score to start. 17 is the highest - 15 from array or buy and 2 from race. So at level 4 you could only have a 19 at the most.

(Reply to #7)

Jeraxle

guachi wrote:

(Reply to #8)

Undrhil

Jeraxle wrote:

#10

Jeraxle

Dec 23, 2014 19:54:40

it's not starting starts at the end of every session you have the choice to tweak your character it can be done and it is legit per the AL rules, personally I am against it my Thief's highest ability is a 16( I also used the point system)

(Reply to #10)

Undrhil

Jeraxle wrote:

(Reply to #10)

Coredump00

Jeraxle wrote:

#13

Byakugan01

Dec 23, 2014 20:15:06

I know you can rebuild your characters till lv 4, but i am pretty sure you still have to follow the normal character creation guidelines. You can rearrange your base stat placement but you still can't have a 16 base stat before racial mod.

You cant just subtract 1 from a 9 to make a 17 into an 18. That would lead to humans with like 3 starting 18s.

For example my gnome had. 15 +2 int score and at 4th level the observant feat gave me an 18.

#14

Jeraxle

Dec 23, 2014 20:20:45

Hey I am not saying what the guy has done is legit I am saying if he misunderstood the rules it is certainly possible he has made a mistake, but from info we have been given it certainly leads one to think he has circumvented the rules.

#15

Noon

Dec 24, 2014 1:22:11

Pauper wrote:

(Reply to #13)

Coredump00

Byakugan01 wrote:

#17

Avross

Dec 24, 2014 5:00:41

We've got something similar at our table.

One player 'extrapolated' the point buy system and has a 20 in his prime stat at 1st level. Two others showed up with characters that have nothing lower than 15s in all stats. A warlock was using Thamaturgy to blind dozens of foes. The primary DM is aware of it, and hasn't said anything, as he's just there to roll dice and keep the table going for the store. Once I figured that out, I pretty much just kicked back and enjoyed it for what it was.

There's two questions to ask yourself:

1) Does it affect the enjoyment of anyone at the table. Is the character with the big stats or "creative" interpretation of a spell always stealing the show and the other players are essentially their sidekicks?

2) Do these players have any expectation that they will be able to play those characters at other tables or cons?

If the answer to both of those questions is no... then don't worry about it. Tell the overpowered dragonborn barbarian with stupid high stats to hold offthe group of trolls and suck up all the damage while you focus on the leader.

If it's impacting the enjoyment of people at the table...talk to the DM. Ask them if it's okay with them...if they aren't, they simply be uncomfortable dealing with it if they think they're alone. And if they are comfortable with it...then you know what kind of a table it is and can deal with it in a way that is best for you.

#18

Pauper

Dec 24, 2014 7:37:44

Let's put it another way -- if these folks are likely to go to a major convention like GenCon or Winter Fantasy, they're going to get called out on their rules-bending there. It's much better for them if they correct their characters in a friendly environment than get the reputation for being clueless or worse.

If they never go to a convention or another location to play Fifth Edition, then they may as well be playing a home game. This only becomes a problem if *you* want to play AL, in which case, finding a game where everyone plays by AL rules may be your best option, if possible.

Pauper

#19

Avross

Dec 24, 2014 7:38:59

Pauper wrote:

#20

BRJN

Dec 24, 2014 11:53:57

As a player, I recommend each PC manually type up his character's abilities / powers / class features / spells / &c. This insures they read the rules carefully (to create the copy) and lessens mistakes.

As a DM, I would ask all my players to do the above and give me a copy of the sheets. Then I can review their characters, too.

At your table, you may need to discuss this with the DM away-from-table. Print off a copy of this thread and bring it along. If he doesn't care, you're stuck.

As pointed out above, there are polite ways to correct a false interpretation / reading of the rules. If the 'cheater' is legitimately mistaken, he will take it in stride. (in 4e you COULD start with a 20 stat.)

If the cheater is cheating deliberately, I expect him to react badly to being corrected, and even worse to being called out.

Be prepared in case this breaks the table - but I hope it doesn't.

#21

Jeraxle

Dec 25, 2014 11:52:13

So I was just re-reading the post and I guess I missed the part where you stated he started with an 18 Cha at first level, so yes I would call complete bull on his character.

The opening the book to the page of the spell and saying "well that's how it works" then slamming it shut is childish, in response I would have my own copy at the table and then read out loud how the spell in fact works.

The use item ability of the Rogue, from the way I read it you have the ability to drink a potion, use Thieve's tools, an instrument etc that is how I read it, it doesn't allow you to use the assassinate ability.

Is it possible to find a new group to game with, one with player's who don't massage the rules to make munchkins?

The last resort I would come up with is maybe meet the DM before a session and explain to him the problems that you think you've spotted and ask him "Am I over-reacting, because no one is gonna cheat so blatanly right?"

Just my 2 cents.

#22

RCanine

Jan 10, 2015 16:03:11

Byakugan01 wrote:

(Reply to #22)

Undrhil

RCanine wrote:

#24

RCanine

Jan 13, 2015 0:45:45

Undrhil wrote:

(Reply to #24)

Undrhil

RCanine wrote:

#26

Jeraxle

Jan 17, 2015 10:05:16

As an avid gamer for 30 years and only DMing for maybe 10 years I have a great appreciation to those of you who do DM yes every player/table has it unique situations. With WOTC bringing out spell cards for magic using classes I would suggest that the table as a whole pitch and buy a set so that way the opening the book and slamming it shut wouldn't happen again(hopefully)

I still think the best option is to have a sit down with the DM and politely ask the player in question.

#27

Kalani

Jan 17, 2015 10:59:21

Speaking of the Spellcasting cards - many of them are incomplete, especially in respect to listing whether the spell is concentration or not. As a rule however, I have noticed that any spell card whose duration says "up to a minute" is usually a concentration spell

#28

Jeraxle

Jan 18, 2015 9:11:08

I think the spell cards are just a "short version" of what the spell does and yes I agree they are "incomplete" it doesn't say if it is a ritual or a concentration spell but it should solve the "well that's how the spell works" problem he was having with his group

#29

Oraibi

Jan 18, 2015 20:36:33

The spell cards do say "ritual" for rituals.

#30

guachi

Jan 19, 2015 17:41:56

Kalani wrote:

#31

Noon

Jan 19, 2015 18:46:33

RCanine wrote:

(Reply to #30)

TheBreen

guachi wrote:

(Reply to #30)

Pauper

guachi wrote:

#34

RCanine

Jan 20, 2015 9:20:48

Noon wrote:

#35

Kalani

Jan 20, 2015 11:44:08

RCanine wrote:

#36

Kalani

Jan 20, 2015 9:59:55

One thing I always say to my fellow DMs - and potential DMs:

It doesn't matter how well you do, all that matters is that you have a willingess to try, and a willingess to improve. You will always get better with time.

The only thing you absolutely 100% must do in order to DM in organized play, is read and fully understand the "adventurer's league player's guide" - in particular, your expectations as a DM. At which point I direct the individual to read the following supplementary article over on the adventurer's league website.

DMing and DM empowerment

This article goes into more detail about the expectations of an AL DM, and addresses most of the questions DMs have regarding houserules, optional rules in the DMG, etc.

#37

RCanine

Jan 20, 2015 20:22:21

Kalani wrote:

#38

Cyberqat

Jan 20, 2015 20:33:46

Are you the GM? If so then absolutely.

If you are not, then unless the GM is specifically and directly violating AG rules its really none of your business.

I recommened you take notes and tlak to your GM *outside* of GM time about things you think are being run wrong.

But in the end it is his or her call.

People who rueks kawyer *during* game are disruptive and as a GM I shut them down.

(Reply to #38)

Undrhil

Cyberqat wrote:

(Reply to #39)

Cyberqat

Undrhil wrote:

(Reply to #39)

Pauper

Undrhil wrote:

(Reply to #2)

Cyberqat

guachi wrote:

#43

guachi

Jan 22, 2015 13:13:13

And a DM that repeatedly and consistenly refuses to follow rules or admit he's wrong because "he's the DM" and gets all high handed about it even if it's AL play just loses the respect of the players and then loses players.

If a DM got all "I'm right because I'm the DM" (when he's obviously wrong) in an AL session I was playing, I'd be finding myself a new DM. I don't allow DM's to willingly and/or knowingly violate AL rules at the table. Period. Of any AL game I play in.

Bad DMs who don't know the rules (that they are supposed to follow because it's AL) interfere with roleplay and generally detract from everyone else's fun.

See? Works both ways.

If the DM actually knew the rules in the first place there would be no need for me to be Rules Lawyery, now would there?

#44

Kalani

Jan 22, 2015 13:20:31

There is a difference between the DM making blatant houserules, and making rulings which you may/may not agree with. 5E has many grey/ambiguous rules which require DM interpretation. AL DMs can interpret such rules however they see fit, and can also make a variety of other rulings on the fly as required, or they see fit.

They cannot however, overrule/change the rules as written in the PHB, or the Adventurer's League Player's Guide, nor can they add/subtract/substitute rules, encounters, items, treasure, or other awards. They can however add/subtract monsters of the same kind as found in a specific encounter however.

#45

Coredump00

Jan 22, 2015 14:54:31

eh..... I know our DMs have 'broken' the rules. I'm not always sure if they know, but I do know I haven't really cared. The goal is to have fun, and they are facilitating that, if that means some rules get...nudged... I'm not concerned. I can understand getting upset at some things, but I wouldn't want to get all black and white with the rules.

The reality is, the vast majority of players at our store will never play AL anywhwere else but at that store. There are a few 'hardcore' folks, mostly the DMs, the rest... not so much. A couple may to to a local con.... but maybe not.

TBH, I have more trouble with their 'legal rulings' then their 'illegal rule changes'.

#46

RCanine

Jan 22, 2015 23:07:18

guachi wrote:

(Reply to #43)

Cyberqat

guachi wrote:

#48

EthanSental

Jan 23, 2015 14:23:38

Reading the various responses, we are getting answer from both sides of the fence for the OP to follow. Yes be a rules lawyer and no don't. I'd be curious what he decides to do. In the end he will have to decide what course of action to take and it will be based on his viewpoint / enjoyment of the game. Keep us updated with what you decide and the outcome please.

My response -do what you think is best for your enjoyment of the game, right or wrong is too subjective as seen in the resposnses but at least your decision fits in how you enjoy the game.

#49

Cyberqat

Jan 25, 2015 11:18:46

Short answer and bottom line to the original question is NO.

Not uless your GM allows it. The GM is still master of the gametable and final arbiter of rules.

My regional coordinator sent me at this in regards to a rules question...

====================================================================================

Bottom line, there is a lot of leeway granted to a DM when there is no clear ruling on a question. The best suggestion I found for Hazirawn is the first response to this post: http://community.wizards.com/.../dd.../threads/4167766

Essentially, the DM who awards Hazirawn should document how they feel it should be used (fill in the missing pieces, like abilities, senses, ideals, bonds and flaws). Write all this down on a DM's note that the player can keep with their character. When playing with a new DM, the player should offer the note, and the new DM is free to take the advice and use it as-is, or may choose to alter it.

That's kind of option (2) in your original question, but further fleshed out to cover roleplay features as well.

#50

Noon

Jan 25, 2015 15:12:36

RCanine wrote:

(Reply to #50)

Cyberqat

Noon wrote:

#52

Pauper

Jan 26, 2015 7:49:02

As a DM, I actually appreciate when a player points out a rule that I'm unaware of or unclear on. I also appreciate players who are stone-cold on the rules that impact their own character's features and abilities.

I also appreciate players who realize that, when I as DM disagree with how they've interpreted a given rule, my interpretation stands for the current game session.

Be a rules lawyer, but also know when not to be.

Pauper