*warning thread may contain spoilers*
With the Tyranny of Dragons story arch coming to a close, I’d like to pose the question to anyone who has already fought Tiamat… has anyone actually beaten her? By my estimation the fight would be a deadly encounter for a party of seven 18th level adventurers. Even if the party does all the things necessary to weaken her, it still only drops Tiamat down to about a CR 20 monster. Which is still way too deadly for a party of 10th level characters. Sadly, with the automatic leveling option nerfed, players are going to have a hard time getting to a reasonable level to beat Tiamat. Even if a character plays all of the AL legal Encounters modules, they still would only have enough Exp to reach level 12, maybe . . .
Is Tiamat supposed to be a party wipe?
As far as I can tell (my party is close, but hasn't gotten there yet) the only way to "win" is to
prevent the ritual from being completed in the first place. Once Tiamat breaches the portal (which takes 12 rounds), most groups will have no chance of defeating her.
Basically, it looks to me like the end of the campaign is the confrontation with Severin, and Tiamat's appearance (if it happens) is just epilogue with some dice rolling attached.
To be fair, Tiamat is a god(dess). Having not actually read the module, but from the description, it's not an avatar or Chosen, or some other form of projected power, but the deity itself emerging from the Nine Hells onto the Prime Material Plane (of the Forgotten Realms).
Yes, Tiamat is a lesser deity, but is still a deity.
You shouldn't be able to win, short of being a nascent deity or ascended hero (which there aren't even rules for in 5E [yet?]), or by direct divine intervention.
In the Neverwinter MMO version, it takes 25 epic level heros working in near perfect harmony to beat her. If they lose, Elminster himself prays to the goddess of Magic to grant him the power to TURN BACK TIME and make sure it didn't happen.
Elminster. Turn Back Time. Direct Intervention of a Deity. That's pretty clearly a combination of the Wish spell + the capstone Cleric class feature from 5E.
My party got in, we almost manage to stop the ritual and prevent Tiamat to show up, but because we were advitising a huge fight for 3 weeks, our DM shorten the ritual and made Tiamat start showing up sooner. Then my fighter did his action surge (with many pre battle buff like potions, haste, enlarge, etc...) using Hazirawn (who want to help my character, because he doesn't want to become a dragontooth pick nor collect rust in a dragon hoard) and did slightly over 300 damages on Tiamat in a single round, followed by the buffed paladin (we had stock on the potion and scroll we found during the entire 15 level adventure knowing that we'll probably need them for the final encounter) who divine smite her 3 times (haste) and crit doubling his divine smite dealing nearly 200 HP of damage. Then her only head that pop out attack do her legendary action, the druid heal us and me and the paladin finish the job. Yes on my second round I only had 4 attacks but between this and the paladin divine smite left over the fight was over. The sorcerer try to help but she was immune to fire, legendary resistance made disintegrate useless, and after the fight we learn that she was immune to spell level 5 or lower so our sorcerer did good to simply buff us and stay away from the Tiamat attack so he wouldn,t loose his concentration making my fighter plummet to the ground.
when she died with only 2 head out of the portal since the DM shorten the ritual duration, we didnt, had time to weaken her so she was FULL FORCE.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
I ran Tiamat as a CR30 encounter as a one-shot New Years event. She TPKed the party in 4 rounds (killing 3/4 of the party within the first round alone). The only reason it took that long was because of a ranging 20th level Barbarian who just took that much longer to bring down.
Kalani wrote:
FYI, I should add that during my one-shot Tiamat encounter, the party was all Level 20, and despite this - she killed 3/4 of them in one round (starting with the paladin whom she perceived was a cleric).
Party of 6 fought her with 3 bullets of the reductions.
We won, but just barely thanks to Death Ward + Hazirawn + Haste (casted right before she appears) + Magic Missile upcasted + Commander's Strike from BM Fighter. Fighter/Barb was pretty much the only one capable of hitting her AC due to Reckless Attack. The spell save DCs were never met because we didn't get the -5 reduction. We killed her by 4hp before she would have fully appeared and frightful presenced/divine worded us out of existence.
However, with that said, a sufficiently geared and min/maxed party shouldn't have too much trouble with her given that you get 5 rounds before she can move and user anything besides her breath weapons and attacks.
You pretty much can't kill her unless the DM gift wraps her for the party. Even with all the reductions, her breath weapon alone should still vaporize half of the party. Even if they have Resistance, they are almost all still going to fail their saves except maybe a rogue and barbarian because of advantage....everybody pretty much needs 20s to save.
RulesJD wrote:
Kalani wrote:
I'm curious how you can get level 20 characters in AL.
Kalani wrote:
Oraibi wrote:
What I really dislike is that the one way of gaining another bullet of debuffs is strictly limited to having a Cleric or Druid in your party. Even then, if they aren't level 15 (which they will not be due to AL not using milestone), they will have to, by RAW, pass a DC 18 Intelligence check to read from the Earthquake scroll. What are the chances that a Cleric or Druid has enough Int to stand a chance of hitting a DC 18 Int check? Sure you can add Guidance, Bardic inspiration, etc. but that relies on further party composition.
Honestly, I was pretty disappointed in the last fight. The module did a horrible job of describing the terrain and summoning process.
RulesJD wrote:
Leomund's Tiny Hut cast with an 8th level spell slot can create a lot of issues for Tiamat...she's not immune to it and it blocks all of her abilities.
Which doesn't help a party in the mod, but she can be defeated by a high level party with a Wish spell, a competent archer, and a way of blocking off her only exit(say by putting the Tiny Hut in it)
A Paladin of the Ancients can TRY to use his "Rebuke Non-natural Beings" Channel Divinity. IF it works, fiends &c (and Tiamat is one) must flee from his presence, as far and as fast as they can. The farthest Tiamat can get from the Paladin is to go back through the portal, into the Hells.
No guarantees, but if it works ... 
You know the PCs are only supposed to be like 14th level right? There are no wishes here.
Your fighter is pretty lucky to have gotten every good perfectly min-maxed magic item from 3 different campaigns and several expeditions
that can only be played once. Especially with a barbarian also being in your party, lol. New players never come to your public gaming space?
Even if you have all that stuff, your party has to fight through many fights back to back including many high level spellcasters, and severin, and you
also, where did you get a contingency spell?
also good luck using all your 4th and 5th level spell slots pre buffing with death ward and getting through all the fights without anyone getting Dispelled.
Then there is the dc 21 frightful presence, then she Tiamat gets to use 1x 57 damage DC 22 save breath weapon attacks(at the end of the first person's turn). Followed by 2 breath weapon attacks the following round. She is resistant to all relevant magic damage types, and basically cant fail a saving throw. She has AC 20, which is still not a trivial roll for a hazirawn barb with reckless attack, haste, and bless. The latter 2 of which already had to make multiple DC 20+ Concentration checks to still have them going anyways.
Unless you gift wrap her, she is pretty much auto TPK.
Woot, I haven't had a party get past Arauthator yet, let alone Tiamat. haha.
Byakugan01 wrote:
Like i said...christmas gift wrapped.
It actually just says she eats her cultists after she fully escapes, but that would require you to survive 5 rounds of multiple breath weapons and all your buffs like haste and protection from evil. being gone.
It doesnt specify say she cant use frighfltful presence since it isnt an attack. The 'can only use her bite and breath attacks' seems to imply that she is merely suffering from restricted movement from the planar prison. so again, DM has to consciously take away another ability from her.
How do your spell casters make concentration saves vs 50+ damage breath attacks?
Sorry i thought you said you had breastplate from LMoP, and hazirawn, and other magic items.
The module pretty much makes it impossible/unlikely to be able to earthquake the temple. Even if you get a scroll you still have a very high int check to use it, and setting off a few M80s in the corner or knocking over a few statues isn't going to cut it. The last bullet is very unlikely to happen....unless DM gift wrap.
Byakugan01 wrote:
Did you have a 15th level PC Druid in your party who could cast 8th level spells?
- If the answer is no - the DM gift wrapped the encounter for you.
All High Level NPCs are needed on the front lines.
- Such characters would play pivotal roles in the assault on the well of dragons. It would be their job to make certain that the enemy forces are held off long enough for the party to infiltrate the temple.
- If even a single high level NPC left the front lines, it could spell disaster for the allied forces (as each character of that level could solo an entire enemy squadron). They are the linchpins in each of the allied squadrons.
This is discounting the fact that the PCs may be the highest level characters in the entire allied force.
- I fully expect that the highest level allied NPC is 3-4 levels lower than the party.
- If there were higher level NPCs, the party would not be the one's tasked with assaulting the temple. The party would instead hold key positions in the allied forces while an NPC group assaulted the temple. If the party failed in such duties, enemy forces would reinforce the temple causing setbacks/failure for the NPC party.
The only people the allied forces can spare to face Tiamat directly is the PCs themselves.
- That is your role in the battle. You were tasked with this responsibility because the party were the most qualified (highest level), and because they couldn't spare anyone else.
- If they could, the module would specifically state that X, Y and/or Z NPCs accompany the party into the temple. To my knowledge, it makes no such statements - as such, no NPC support is intended.
- The simple truth is that the rest of the allied force are simply holding the enemy off long enough for you to accomplish this task.
- This is especially true if you failed to secure the aid of one or more allied forces (such as the giants or dragons) as those enemy wings will have no opposition.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
I concur. Vulnerability does not trump Immunity. Double zero is still zero.
5e dispel magic tries to dispel every buff on the target, not just 1. And there isnt even a roll for 0-3rd level spells.
Flying, hasted, potioned, prot eviled, death warded fighter would be very sad in my game. Obvious dispel target is obvious.
I would have allowed PCs to stop rhe ritual though, because i couldnt force myself to dumb down a God in a fight.
Byakugan01 wrote:
I refuse to believe anyone who says they were able to defeat Tiamat without preventing the ritual, it simply is not possible when run as permitted in the ALPG. Those of you who think otherwise are just kidding yourselves.
So my takeaway from all this is that it's very easy to defeat Tiamat if you're not playing AL and if the DM basically cheats in your favor to make it happen.
Cool! Sounds simple.
Kalani wrote:
DME certainly allows you to adjust spell loadouts, particularly based on tactical decisions that the enemy might make after fighting the same group of heros for months.
Ravix wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
They are interpreting the entry from the DMG that allows a DM to replace weapons/armor with equivalent weapons/armor - and that doing so would not alter the creature's CR. The same would apply in respect to replacing one spell with a spell of equal level and utility, in light of the fact that the rule is not listed as a variant/optional rule.
I would be hesitant to replace a utility spell with a combat spell however, as this could theoretically increase a creatures combat effectiveness.
With that being said however
The admins have stated on numerous occasions that the DMG is only valid for the purpose of "playing on a grid" and "magic item descriptions", and that all other rules in the DMG are disallowed.
Kalani wrote:
Ainulindalion wrote:
Swapping spells is specifically permitted in the DM Basic Rules in the beginning of the NPC section. Though it does specifically point out 'home campaign' in the document.
Does that make it 'AL legal'?
Ainulindalion wrote:
Kalani wrote:
I love all the metagameyness of knowing how many people have to do XYZ, and how having 3 out of at least 5 group members being spell casters and knowing the only way to assault their God is to use flying magic isnt a good reason to have learned dispel magic. Or maybe dispeling hazirawn to turn it off for a while ;).
And kalani is right about immunity/vulnerability.
Damage is reduced to 0 then doubled...which is still 0.
But we already established you succeeded in killing the red wizards and severin, and stopped the ritual....so you won. But the DM decided to let you beat up tiamat for funsies. Which is cool. But it wasn't the same Tiamat everyone else fought(and was destroyed by).
All this stuff I am not allowed to do near tempts me into becoming a regular Jesse James. No..wait.. Robin Hood.. I break the rules of the rich to aid the poor and create a table of merry men and women. I am sure Greg can play an awesome Sherrif of Nottingham and I can also totally see Robert as a Prince John. I could see Claire as lady marion, but Keith would likely kill me 
. Hmm Bill or Travis in a dress....choices choices...
Byakugan01 wrote:
Yep, from my own assumptions as I haven't actually run this encounter yhet. It's basically impossible to defeat Tiamat as a level 14~ party outside of stopping the ritual. This is her stat block for those interested (link to a legible version below, this one seems too small or zoom in):
Noctaem, the party can reduce her to CR18 if they had completed certain objectives (or any CR between 18-30). Doing so weakens her considerably but still leaves her extremely formidable - and more than capable of TPKing the party outside of considerable luck.
Kalani wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
The questio of if a spell caster's spell list can be changed in AL has not been answered yet. I believe Kalani was looking into it:
Kalani wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Right the question is if those general rules for spellcasters also apply to those in Adventure League. Kalani and others (including myself) believe that the answer is yes, but I'll leave room open for it actually being no. It's AL and sometimes it's a bit weird.
Noctaem wrote:
TheBreen wrote:
I do not dispute the fact you believe it was a legitimate battle however, like many others, I question some of the decisions your DM made. I will look at the encounter once I get back to my books and will compare what is written with how your DM ran the encounter
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Heh.
4e Character Optimization had guys (plural!) claim they beat Orcus BEFORE the official release date of the 3 core books.
Couple of months later, someone beat a not-played-like-a-Cupcake Orcus.
Tiamat has barely broken a sweat, so far.
(any homegame trickery excluded)
awaken_D_M_golem wrote:
awaken_D_M_golem wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
I think you're taking this very seriously and on a personal level. So much so in fact that you're talking in caps, throwing out personal attacks and are blinded to your own previous posts. Let me explain:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
I do not feel I am in any kind of position to comment in depth, but would like to state for the record that the spell list that shows up in an adventure is not guaranteed to be the one intended by the designer. Just because the way an encounter was written makes it easy in a technical sense, is no guarantee that was intended. There is, extremely, limited space to convey intent outside of statblocks and tactics.
I for one know very few designers that are arrogant enough to think that they can design encounters that will work the way they intended regardless of the people/situation at a table. I know even fewer that can. I do know a lot of them that expect DMs to help translate their intent though. And I do wish the AL would borrow from the great work done in Ashes of Athas where encounters always listed an intended difficulty. More information about an encounters intent is always a boon for a DM.
I think it would be very interesting to know how many designers expect DMs to adjust and to what degree. May be a good poll to put somewhere
His story keeps changing in response to each post, so we just have to go with it.
Earlier there was magic items listed from 3 campaigns, then ot was backtracked to 2.
Then there was talk about a gnome with i dont know a rocket launcher or something that damaged the temple, now its a druid that was overleveled and cast earthquake.
The druid tried to cast contagion on tiamat which means he also had to have a fly spell and fly up to tiamat and hit her with a attack roll. Then they find out she is immune...and how many people were within a 90 ft cone again?
The party all managed to all roll higher initiative than a dozen red wizards and all spread out minimum 40' from each other, and they killed 1-2 wizards in round 1 and the wizard got fireballed once..but what about the other 4-5 wizards that all had line of sight and were within range? And severin and his 40+ damage ranged attack? I am going to go out on a limb and guess they all split their attacks against everyone because if they had played to their high reputation they would have completely destroyed anyone they focus fired.
We know they already killed rath modar because the sorc was described with the staff of fire.
It sounds as if their tiamat only made 1 bite attack as her whole turn, and then only used 1 breath weapon, which she all used extremely dumbly against the meatshield. When she could have used a lot more breath weapons.
I am currently building a highly optimized L14 party. Once completed, I will simulate the assault on the temple - playing all parties intelligently. I will report my results.
The party includes
- Bear totem Barbarian 4/moon Druid 10; sentinel, alert, insignia of claws
- Bear totem Barbarian 3/Battlemaster11; Great Weapon Master; Alert; medium armor mastery; defense; half-plate (AC 19); hazirawn
- Rogue/ranger; +1 longbow; white dragonscale armor; sharpshooter
- Dragonborn Sorcerer 14; magic initiate (Eldritch blast)
- Cleric 14; plate of lightning resist
Except for the items listed, the party is still incomplete. I have yet to award all magic items from HotDQ and RoT, nor have I started the rogue,cleric or sorcs character sheets.
Mo reiterate - this party is highly optimized (right down to magic items) and should represent the upper expectations vs Tiamat
We were discussing the red wizards spell lists.
It sounds like some people think changing spell lists is an optional rule and thus disallowed in AL?
Is the DM basic rules not a legal rules source for a DM? Isnt it...you know, the basic rules? Page 5 under spellcasting says you can change spell lists no problem. It does use the term 'monster' but then gives an example of a Drow mage so it seems NPCs are just a flavor of monster.
I just kind of assumed that it was boring and less fun to play all monsters identically. Suggested spells are just that...suggestions. Incredibly dubious that a bunch of wizards all learned exactly the same spells.
MasterNamer wrote:
I don't think this discussion is worth continuing at this point. QwertyAzerty is taking it on a personal level and obviously feels very threatened by anything we have to say on the matter. Best to just let it go.
I learnt how to reedz in koledge.
I read that tiamats temple is a wide open space and regardless which cathedral you are in you are visible to at least 6 red wizards plus Severin. Since they are actually coordinating their actions they should more likely be a bit closer to the middle so they can all see each other. You said he started making tiamat appear after 6 rounds, so your group was exposed to at least 5 rounds of spell battery...also severin can legendary action restrain the fighter and instantly drop him to the ground for a minimum 1 turn. But you will probably say you also had 4x freedom of movement that you -never- used before.
I also read severin isn't concentrating on anything, and he specifically can fight all he wants.
Its just that your whole scenario requires so many perfectly set up presuppositions and DM gifts.
You got more xp than the vast majority of people who do the adventure. Had time to rest, got through all the encounters to GET into the temple without having to use any buffs...you either ignored the 5 chromatic dragons slaughtering people en mass outside or stood outside for a solid few minutes casting Earthquake and 20 different buff spells and drinking potions. Haha, i bet a lot of DMs would have started counting turns as soon as you finished casting earthquake, since at that point you are in combat with the mages inside. What is that? We open the door and the 5 red wizards on the ground all cast greater invisibility on themselves and hid? Well dayum!
Not to mention your round by round account puts the most important of your buffs (haste) at between 8 rounds gone and you being stunned for a round in the middle of the boss fight. So your DM literally gift wrapped and put a cute little pink ribbon on Tiamat's head for you.
your dm probably lets you ready actions pre-combat and gave u surprise. So you can all run in and spread out and gank 2 guys before iniative and a round of haste is gone.
You can blame the writers all you want, but it is obvious your DM just wanted to let you beat up on a god without really threatening you. It sounds a bit anticlimactic really. But as long as you had fun that is what is important.
QwertyAzerty wrote:
I have added the following question to the list of FAQ candidates. I will let you all know what the answer is.
Can we modify a monsters Spell List in Adventure League as allowed in the DM Basic Rules (p5), and the Monster Manual (p10)? The DMing and DM Empowerment article says we should avoid modifying encounters, which appears to contradict these rules.
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
The 16 dex also helps for ranged attacks, which come in exceptionally handy in this particular encounter (the character in question has one of the two +1 longbows from Hoard), as a backup when unable to enter melee range (hazirawn is still the go-to weapon for obvious reasons). The dex was also chosen to maximize initiative (+8).
I am currently on round 4 of the Encounter; with 7 of the Red Wizards still active, Severin down to 3HPs (almost dead), and Rath Modar very much alive and well. I am not pulling any punches on either side, with Severin dropping the Air Elemental Wildshaped Druid in a little over 2 rounds of legendary actions. Said druid was hit repeatedly with Severins flaming orb as well as screwed over by hellish chains. Once Severin depleted the raging elementals HPs (keeping in mind it had resist all except psychic), the druid then fell for an additional 10d6 damage but only took minor injuries in the fall.
The fact that Severin could deplete the HPs of a raging 90HP (effectively 180HP) elemental in a little over 2 rounds is impressive to say the least.
Kalani wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
For starters the second floor is only 50 feet up. The celing at that level is unlisted but I would estimate 75 feet at its highest point and possibly as low as 50 feet at its lowest (they radiated upward like fingers around a central spire) Severin was in area 13 and 100 feet up. He could not be seen at the mouth of area 1. Area 1 is 120 feet long approx (the entire complex is 420 feet x 420 feet x 100+ feet at its widest and highest points)
It it takes more than a full round of dashing to come within visual range of him based on my assessment. The celing of the 5 spires block view unless you are at least 60 feet into each area.
this thread needs a theme song: here ya go
Noctaem wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
Kalani wrote:
You do have a point about the Rogue/Fighter being capable of that. I think I will adjust my simulation and replace rogue/ranger with rogue/fighter, especially in light of the fact that hunter's mark has such a short range (It was suggested I use rog/rng when I was trying to figure out what the 5th character was, the first 4 were easy to determine - the 5th, was a wildcard).
I plan on publishing the results of my simulation some time this weekend, but will make the adjustments to the 5th character that have been suggested. Dropping SA down from 5d6 to 2d6 is easily offset by the Superiority die + 3rd attack, although the character will likely feel the loss of UD, and Evasion.
Based on my initial simulation (which I had completed to round 4, but will scrap as I made several errors I didn't immediately notice), I suspect defeating the cultists in 10 rounds is more than achievable with a modicum of party coordination. If I find my simulation group defeats the cultists however (which I find highly likely), I will then "summon Tiamat" at their current strength in order to simulate a "weakened" parties chances of defeating her Dark Majesty.
Kalani wrote:
I find that very very difficult to believe, given the fact that she has 5 legendary actions (breath weapons), and a host of immunities and other defensive abilities. For one thing, she is immune to non-magical weapons, and spells of 6th level or lower (if she chooses). She also has 5 legendary saves, and can take multiple reactions each round.
RulesJD wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
Kalani wrote:
There's your first problem - prebuffing. We are talking a whiteroom encounter, which means no prebuffing allowed. Otherwise, what is to stop Tiamat having had an allied caster prebuff her (she can voluntarily allow spells to succeed).
Also, I would not allow contingency to be triggered by any event which specifies "Tiamat" as part of its trigger - as we are assuming no foreknowledge that you will face her specifically. As such, a more general trigger would have likely been triggered previously.
Regarding Magic Missile
Finally, you are incorrect regarding magic missile and adding INT to each missile.
Edited due to being ninja'd by Kalani.
Eh, I'd allow pre-buffing, but Tiamat also gets the benefit of pre-buffing in that case. No fair offering the benefit to one side and not the other. And since Tiamat is a goddess, she clearly would be able to know exactly what is coming after her.
The contingency could legitimately be triggered on "when attacked by a dragon breath weapon" rather than specifically Tiamat's breath weapon, so I'd allow that, too.
Agreed on the 'magic missile has only one damage roll' point, though.
Looks like I'll need to pick up the Rise adventure if I'm going to contribute any more to this thread, though.
--
Pauper
Just because I can never let one of these pass: there can never be a "per Jeremy Crawford's ruling" because Jeremy Crawford makes no rulings.
Back to watching that partidge being shot with a single cartridge...
Well, I wasn't going to go that far, but if you insist.
I do have some experience administrating PbM character fights -- I did it on the old 3E boards back before the introduction of the Core Coliseum. Might be fun to stage one here, just to see what happens.
--
Pauper
The Mearls ruling on single target MM makes no sense. It's not a single damage roll - it isn't any different from hitting a target with 3 scorching rays.
Ainulindalion wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Tiamat's Limited Magic Immunity isn't 'immunity to damage from spells of 6th level or lower'...she's just not affected by them. I'd rule that that allows her to simply bypass Otilluke's Resiliant Sphere in the same way that she would if you had attempted to target her with it (size restrictions not withstanding).
Also, Jeremy Crawford weighed in and overruled Mearls' earlier tweet about Magic Missile and Empowered Evocation:
imaginaryfriend wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Does anyone else get a chuckle out of a claim that there is "zero argument" against something.......right after a whole slew of post that argument against it?
Oh and anthing TheBreen can say I can say faster...
imaginaryfriend wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
One of the more interesting things about the questions Jeremy gets for clarifications of design intent (which are still NOT rulings ;) )is the way they tend to be worded.
Its always: Hey Jeremy is X true? or How does Y work?
Rarely do you see: Hey Jeremy, The way I read X means that my wizard does 11d4 + 66 damage for one casting of Magic Missile with all missiles aimed at the same target. Is that intended?
or Hey Jeremy, if X is true and Y works like you say that means my character of class Z can do 999 attacks in one round. Is that intended?
Over the years I have read many a spiritied forum debate about awesome (possibly a tad overpowered) X + Y = Z combinations. The debate would rage for a while and then people would go find WotC quotes. And were I a betting man I would be a lot better off than I am, because almost without fail it would be a question and resulting quote about X or Y, but never the whole combination.
Wonder why that is..
Oh sorry, idle musings.. carry on. Oh and everything Tiamat can wear I can wear better.
imaginaryfriend wrote:
I don't actually think that the interpretation trivializes the encounter, when treating it as a white room experiment. Because your party of 4 wizard (evoker) 18/ fighter 2 probably doesn't survive your campaign unless you have a really nice DM.
'Cause mob of kobolds probably overruns it at about 2nd level and it can't heal.
Pauper wrote:
imaginaryfriend wrote:
YsICn
TheBreen wrote:
imaginaryfriend wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
Here is the discussion...
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557810434624212992
Here is my issue with it:
Crawford is asked (kinda paraphrasing) "+x on every bolt"? and he answers "Yep, its one damage roll, just like fireball,...."
So now wait a minute.
The "Yep" seems to be a straightforward answer.
The "its one damage roll" however..... if it is only 1 damage roll, it would only add +x once, not once per bolt. But then maybe he meant each die is one damage roll....
But then "just like fireball" makes no sense no how. For fireball, you only ever add the +x once to the total, or you could consider that you are adding it once to each target. Which, of course, makes it exactly what Mearls said....
So, how do we rectify the 'yep' and the 'just like fireball' as both being correct...??
I believe that the confusion might lay with how magic missile vs 1 target works. They have stated that if you target magic missile vs 1 target, all darts of the spell are combined into one damage roll. So you would only ever get the bonus once from the evocation 10 feature. If you however target multiple targets, they would each get the bonus once.
So 10 missiles vs 2 targets = 5d4 + mods each.
10 missiles vs 1 target = 10d4 + mods.
Mods being all your bonuses factored. So to go back to the vs Tiamat example that was given earlier. Each use of magic missile would not be:
Here's the key. Evocation wizards add their Int mod to EACH "damage roll" per Jeremy Crawford's ruling. Because each MM is an individual damage roll, MM becomes 1d4+1+5, or 1d4+6 for simplicity.
Level 9 MM = 11d4+66 (average damage of 93.5)
Level 8 MM = 10d4+60 (average damage of 85)
But instead
Level 9 MM = 11d4+6
Level 8 MM = 10d4+6
You can split up the missiles however you want. But each target can only take the damage from invocation 10 once per casting of MM. The bolded part above is the incorrect section which is causing the confusion.
EDIT: I sent a tweet to JC to ask for clarification. Due to character limit the question was phrased as:
Magic Missile + Evocation level 10 feature. Cast as level 8 spell vs 1 target. Damage = 1d4+1+INT /dart OR 10d4+1+INT?
While Mike Mearles is an unreliable source of information, here is the sage advice entry regarding Magic Missile
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/03/magic-missile-one-source/
Noctaem wrote:
Kalani wrote:
That was the point I was making.... The damage for magic missile is specifically listed as 1d4+1 per bolt (before modifiers). It is unusual compared to other spells, but specific beats general.
Adding modifiers on top of the base spell damage however, is definately a separate equation. As such, I like to consider the equation as follows:
(base spell damage) + outside modifiers. By extension magic missile deals (1d4+1/bolt) + modifiers - or (10d4+10) + INT
Ok, if he answers me I'll try to further clarify the question
RulesJD wrote:
My interpretation of magic missile is that it is only 1 source. It deals damage based on how many missiles they get hit with.
It only counts as 1 source because all the darts hit simultaneously. Whereas scorching ray requires attack rolls in sequence, which by their definition involves calculating hit/miss/crit damage 3 separate times.
Byakugan01 wrote:
In regards to whether DMs can swap spells for NPCs (i.e. the Red Wizards should have had Dispel Magic argmument), please see the sidebar at the bottom of page 8 in the new Princes of the Apocalpyse Adventure Supplement. Hint: Yes, you can.
Inaubryyn wrote:
Inaubryyn wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Kalani wrote:
You asked for how I could design a party of 4 that could guarantee kill Tiamat. I gave you my answer that works with the clear "per bolt" language. JC is welcome to rule otherwise, and then I will adapt. Until that time, my method works.
You have to admit to the fact that any method, at all, that I could come up with you would instantly revile and dispute purely because you don't want it to be possible. That's fine to have that viewpoint, I certainly wouldn't ever sit at your table and wouldn't recommend others do so, but you should at least admit your bias.
I have to admit, I admire your creativity in creating a team of clone wizards. With that being said however - such a team is not what I would call a balanced "party" - by that I mean that they could have never survived to 20th level if they had started at 1st level and worked their way up.
Now, if you could however create a team that would survive to 20th level, and is optimized to beat Tiamat - I will be suitably impressed. As it is, your scenario's only highlight the strength of otilukes resilient sphere, wall of force, mordenkainen's magical hut and similar spells - and the fact that Tiamat has no answer to protective barriers of force, outside of staying at range until their durations elapse (which she is more than intelligent enough to do).
Honestly however, Tiamat would not fall for such an obvious ploy (based on previous editions - her IQ is ~260). The moment she attempted to attack the party and they raised a dome of force, she would simply retreat and bide her time. She would not stay within spell range of the wizards. As such, the encounter would have most likely looked like this.
Encounter Setup
Being insanely intelligent and wise (26 INT and 26 WIS), Tiamat would be wary of a group of robed individuals, logically suspecting that any such individual which was brave enough to stand against her was a) a spellcaster, b) likely a wizard (she would not be able to easily distinguish between wizards, sorcerers, or warlocks - with the exception of dragon sorcerers) and c) had a magical trick up their sleeve.
Given her intelligence, it is logical to assume she has intimate knowledge of most arcane tricks and would be familiar with otilukes resilient sphere, wall/sphere of force and similar spells. She may not suspect this particular group of wizards has access to such spells, but given her 26 INT, she would have devised contingency plans for pretty much any spell.
As her first action, she would likely attempt to bait out their "magical trick" (whatever it may be), logically assuming that the foolish mortals will open with their big guns (high level spell slots), and reveal their trick early. She will logically deduce that the party of "wizards" will most assuredly have a very powerful defensive spell with which to protect themselves from her wrath. Given her insane intelligence, she would likely boil down the options of spell candidates to a list of a half-dozen or so.
Likewise, she would likely deduce the half-dozen most threatening spells that could injure her, and would attempt to force the "wizards" to waste said spells with little/no effect.
Encounter Range
For sake of argument, lets use the encounter from RoT - This would place Tiamat between 100 and 250 feet away from the party (depending on their location). The temple has a maximum range of 420 feet from end to end - giving her ample space to maneuver and stay out of range of the parties spells.
Round 1 - Tiamat: Tiamat would move from the portal away from the party, ending her move at least 220 feet away (and outside the range of most spells). She then readies an action to move (retreat) another 120 feet if they begin to cast a high level spell which could threaten her. With her Arcana +17, Perception +26, and Insight +8 - she is (overly) confident she could deduce the parties intentions quickly, identify any spell being cast, and react accordingly.
Round 1 - Wizard 1: Tiamat is out of range of magic missile, if not 95% of the spells in their arsenal. Only spells such as insect plague have enough range to harm her at this point. As such, Wizard 1 would either a) ready an action to cast a spell if Tiamat approaches or b) cast their wall of force in order to shield the party.
Rounds 2+: Tiamat is patient. She knows the party has a "magical trick" up their sleeve (and would have deduced a shortlist of likely spell candidates - magic missile not being one of them), and will attempt to bait them out. She will fly slightly closer each time until such times as they trigger their "plan". She knows full well that the party will only be able to get a single spell off before she moves out of range, at which point the party will have tipped their hand and revealed themselves..... I repeat, I think it highly unlikely magic missile even crosses her mind as a possibility (use of such a spell would almost certainly surprise her, and anger her in the process).
For sake of brevity, lets assume that this occurs in round 2.
Round 2 - Wizard casts magic missile.
For sake of argument - lets assume it does 11d4+66 damage, as this is most favorable for your scenario. Infuriated that such a low level spell did so much damage,
Round 2 - Readied Action (Move): Tiamat retreats 120 feet - well outside of range of magic missile. At this junction, she knows the party plans on casting upleveled spells, and logically deduces they plan on spamming magic missile (and similar spells). With her knowledge of arcana, she almost certainly recalls the range of magic missile and decides to remain well outside of that range (lets say 150 feet, as that allows her to move to within 90 feet as a single move).
As the party does not know the range of her breath weapons (but likely deduces she has them), Wizard 1 would likely then pop their Action surge and cast wall of force, thereby tipping the parties hand to their defensive option.
Counter Strategy.
Tiamat then begins a game of cat-and-mouse, moving within range of magic missile for a single round, then retreating for several rounds until her regeneration heals her of all damage taken. It would be impossible for the party to defeat her using this strategy. Not only has she deduced a rather simple counter to the magic missile ploy, but the party has also revealed their defensive options as well.
Tiamat simply toys with them until they run out of options, and then swoops in for the kill. Checkmate.
Yes, as a DM I have metagamed Tiamat's response. While I am highly intelligent, Tiamat makes me look like an orangatan in comparison (her IQ is ~100 points greater than mine). As such, whenever I roleplay the reactions of creatures with 20+ intelligence, I assume they are smart enough to have already 'figured out' such a hypothetical scenario, and have deduced a counter-strategy "for fun" prior to the encounter.
FYI, it took me less than a minute to devise this counter-strategy, with the foreknowledge I had. I would suspect Tiamat to have taken seconds, even without foreknowledge.
DM Trick
When Roleplaying hyperintelligent foes, I find a useful tool is to cliff-hanger the session with the foes introduction. The manner in which I do this is to provide a situation in which the party has "downtime" to formulate a strategy for the encounter.
While the party is debating their strategy, I listen carefully to ALL ideas the party comes up with, taking detailed notes. I also write down any counter-strategies I think of quickly, so as not to forget them. Once the party has finished strategizing, I cliff-hanger the session with the introduction of the hyper intelligent BBEG.
During next sessions prep, I sit down and carefully consider the parties plan of attack, and go over each characters spells and other resources with a fine tooth comb to see if I can find any strategies they may not have yet thought of. I also make certain to write down any "common strategies" and combo's that are favored by the party.
Once I have a good understanding of my parties plan, and their capabilities - I then sit down and determine several multi-layered counter-strategies and contingency plans. The more intelligent the foe - the more contingencies and layers the enemies "counter strategies" have.
At the start of next session, I begin the combat, confident of the fact that I can roleplay the reactions of such an intelligent foe intelligently. If the party pulls a surprise action I did not consider, I consider the enemy to be surprised by it as well - but anything the party does that they "planned", I simply inform them that the BBEG had already thought of that possibility, and had devised a counter to it "just in case".
Kalani wrote:
LefferDP wrote:
I think from a common sense standpoint or "As the module writers were expecting" standpoint, you really wanna prevent Tiamat from getting summoned in the first place or you are going to have a bad time.
Once you get down to the actual case study of "Could we beat Tiamat?" though... Sadly it sort of spirals into the party of adventurers and Tiamat all dying of old age (somehow, even if immortal) as method after method that COULD beat a god gets shot down with "Well I don't like it and it doesn't work, because Gods are more cool attractive and popular than you so there" until the univese explodes.
It's fairly a given that average mc funhaver's party would get crushed like a bug. But does every single case of theorycraft "Well, if I were custom tailoring a party JUST to beat this encounter, then-" get shot down from reasons ranging from semantics to "Well too bad, I'd just edit the encounter so you fail anyways!" when there isn't even a campagin on the line, but seeing if there is some custom hand tailored solution to a pretend games problem.
Then again, I'm used to the sort of GM who have literally told me my paid for immunity to poison does not in fact, work against poison because that would be unfair to players and NPCs with poison attacks.
My point still stands that - unless the DM gift wraps Tiamat, she would easily out-think, out-strategize, and out-maneuver the party.
The fight should be akin to watching a grandmaster chess player facing off against a virtual novice. Even in the case of a genius wizard (INT 20) - the comparison is no different than a certified genius (IQ 160) vs your average Joe Noebody (IQ 100).
Anything the wizard(s) think of, Tiamat has already thought of, and countered.
Playing her anything less than a superior intelligence is doing her a disservice, and that is without factoring in her hypergenius Wisdom..... She would never make an unwise decision.
In order to roleplay her properly
A DM may have to retcon her actions if they end up "stupid". Tiamat does not make mistakes with that level of intelligence and wisdom. DMs are only human however, and can easily fail to see something the goddess would find trivial.
A better idea would be to have 2 (or more) DMs collaborate on how Tiamat should act.
That way, they can bounce ideas off each others heads, and weed out the stupid ideas, or ideas that overlook glaring flaws.
Kalani wrote:
LefferDP wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Kalani wrote:
I am not sure why you quoted my entire post and didn't say anything. The only motivation I can think of (at this late hour) for doing this is in order to bring it back to the forefront of the discussion as we have been discussing a tangent for the past several posts.
Kalani wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
Do not assume your spells will work against her. Pretend you have no foreknowledge of her abilities. Now, design a party that fights her with those assumptions.....
Stop metagaming the encounter. Your Party should devise a plan, assuming no OOC (out of character) knowledge.
It is very unlikely that the PCs have any knowledge of Tiamat's capabilities, so using OOC knowledge to cheese the encounter is bad sportsmanship.
If you noticed - I did not metagame the PCs exact capabilities.
I only metagamed her knowledge of the wizard spell list, and had her deduce the party was full of wizards. I also did not metagame her awareness of the PCs plan to spam magic missile - only that she expected some kind of trick, and had created a shortlist of possible candidates (wish would be top of that list, as would spells like simulacrum, gate, disintergrate, prismatic sphere, wall of force, etc).
To be fair, your PCs probably have some of the following information - either from Religion checks, or logical deduction (the party are all geniuses after all).
PC Knowledge DCs.
Some of this information can be obtained only via Religion checks. Other information (esp. relating to Krynn) can only be obtained via Arcana checks. Other information (such as her strengths/weaknesses) can be obtained via either skill.
DC 10
- She is the chromatic dragon - evil queen of all dragonkind; and an intermediate god. You know common information about her portfolio, and the basics of her church doctrine.
- Anyone with 16+ INT could logically assume she is resistant (or immune) to fire, lightning, acid, cold, and poison - based on previous experience with dragons (which are immune to their own damage types). Logic would also dictate that being a god, she would have resistance (or immunity) to non-magical weapons.
DC 15
- You know she is actually a fiend (not a dragon), and that she dwells in a fortress in Avernus, first layer of the Nine Hells. You most probably know about how she became imprisoned there, and that she created the abashai. You would know intermediate knowledge about her church, its hierachy, holidays, practices, and customs.
- You would not learn any new information about her strengths/weaknesses.
- You know she is insanely intelligent, perceptive, and capricious - however, she is prone to overconfidence.
- You would recognize the Temple as being identical to the one in Avernus (but may not realize it is the same temple).
DC 20
- You know the names of specific high-ranking individuals from her church, both historical and current. You have intimate knowledge with the churches customs and practices and could cite entire passages from her doctrine.
- You are likely aware of her discorporation and possibly regeneration abilities.
- You would also be aware that Tiamat is a powerful arcane and divine spellcaster (You would not however, know that she lacks most of her spellcasting abilities in her dragon aspect).
DC 25
- You are probably aware of her senses (but not their specific ranges), and her condition immunities.
- You also know that Tiamat does not need to rest between breath weapons (unlike dragons), and that she can use multiple breath weapons every few seconds. You do not however, know the range or spread of her breath weapons, but logically deduct that it is much greater than that of any living dragon.
- You know most of the church leadership, their histories, and backgrounds.
- You know detailed information about Tiamat's previous incursions into other worlds.
- You are aware of Krynn, and the role she plays within the Krynn cosmology, but do not know the specific history of Krynn (only fragments).
- You are aware that her capabilities differ from plane to plane, and world to world.
- You are also aware that she is at her most powerful on Krynn, and that she will be likely weakened in Toril.
DC 30+
- You know basic information about Tiamat's churches in other planes (Krynn in particular). Most of your knowledge comes from obscure manuscripts that have made their way to Toril from planar travelers.
- You may be aware of important historical events which happened on other worlds - such as when Huma Dragonbane defeated her Dragon Aspect in the Third Dragon War on Krynn. You likely know nothing about the War of the Lance, or anything which occured since then.
- You might know that she is immune to 6th level or lower spells, and that she lacks most of her spellcasting ability in dragon form. This information is very obscure: Tiamat would not share this information with anyone - including her most trusted prophets or church leaders. Few who have faced her in battle (and learnt this first hand) live to tell the tale.
Kalani wrote:
LefferDP wrote:
There are only a handful of ways for a wizard/sorc not to be completely obliterated by her breath weapon...the contingency plan is cute, but only works once and doesn't save anyone else.
As soon as a wall of force stops her breath and she gets magic missiles a bunch, she breaths again and its interrupted again...but that is 2 walls of force gone and nobody else in the party gets to act but the 2 wizards. best case where we assume emp evocation cheeze with 2 casters using 9th level magic missiles she is taking 200 damage, then she regenerates and dashes 240 feet and up into one of the temple alcoves out of sight....everyone in the party is stuck under a wall of force and skip turns then wizards go...do you move up by yourself so u can see her and are less than 100 feet from her? You have no more action surges...and she has 3 70-90 damage breath attacks per turn....if you don't chase her she regenerates.
heck she could basically ignore the party for 2-3 turns and just use breath attacks on to destroy all the torches on the walls....she has massively superior senses and the party wouldnt even be able to see her...daylight gives 120 foot vision which is a very unfortunate distance compared to her 240 ft vision and 120 fly speed.
This is all assuming everyone has a way not to be affected by the frightful presence. Even with the unlikely event you have resistance to every one of her elements, even people who have advantage to save are unlikely to make the saves which means autofailed concentration.
It is a whole lot of ugly.
Kalani wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
MonsterEnvy wrote:
so 10x lvl 20 wizards can one hit every deity?
assault them in their homeplane and kick ass?
Unlikely, but they could certainly try. Of course there are a few deities with, traditonally anyway sofar undefined in 5e, tremendous foresight. So those 10 wizards might find themselves assaulted the moment they arrive on the plane in question. Or they could all suddenly realize that the deity in question is and has always been their friend and why would they ever want to hurt them? Or somewhere back in time their parents might suddenly meet with a horrible fate, with predictable effects on the existence of said wizards. Or.. well you get the idea
Chain simulacrums and wishes until everyone has permanent resist all, and is immune to breath weapons and fear effects...then planeshift about 500 simulacrums of the wizards to the abyss and magic missile the whole plane to death. U won dnd, gratz. Roll new lv 1 character.
RulesJD wrote:
Actually,as of 5e - wizards has reconciled the Tiamat/Takhisis dichotomy. They are two aspects of the same God. They have even gone as far as to use official Takhisis artwork (in her Human form) for Tiamat.
Ainulindalion wrote:
My group of lvl 14s actually beat Tiamat last week. We had got one of the dragon masks of course so she was weakened a bit and we had a big army with us to clear the riff raff but somehow we beat her.
Mirtek wrote:
lycovian wrote:
Nothing posted changes my opinion that the encounter is unwinnable unless you prevent the summoning from occurring. This is the AL subforum and there is no way for characters currently in AL to defeat even a weakened Tiamat who is played appropriately.
Give me your tears.
It's winnable, sure...if the DM gift wraps her and puts a cute little bow on her head.
The only way you have a chance to beat her is to get all 5 weakness effects limiting her to 1 breath per turn. Which is nearly impossible in AL. I guess if the DM decides the 5 chromatic dragons eating sacrifices are babies. Although now that season 2 is out, a party does have enough options to get
Enough xp to get to 15th level if they run a bunch of expeditions.
Or do the Elminster thing until everyone rolls crits and rolls nat 20s on their saves.
An impressive amount of people not taking up the offer to actually game this one out. More than willing to roll up 4 level 15 AL legal characters (with magic items obviously) to prove just how winnable the Tiamat encounter can be. But I guess it's just vastly easier to never actually fight Tiamat (and thus risk your high level character to sheet death) and ignornately comment.
RulesJD wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
Just pointing out something that should be obvious:
If Tiamat simply leaves the encounter after being summoned, the Cult wins -- they got exactly what they wanted, a god loose in the Realms, free to plot whatever she wishes.
In other words, any successful strategy to defeat Tiamat has to be able to prevent her from simply leaving the encounter.
--
Pauper
Pauper wrote:
If I was Tiamat, I would probably bring the entire temple down upon he people defying her. She has no use for it, and it's not like she couldn't easily leave before the temple collapsed.
Noctaem wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Mirtek wrote: