SPOILER: Lich - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 QwertyAzerty May 28, 2015 6:10:46	In PotA there is a Lich, but that lich can hardly reach it's phylactery, having it hidden in hotile terriroty. So how does it feed teh phylactery the soul require to not become a demi lich? or his the lich on his way to become a demi lich? If the Lich does feed the phylactery, does he use the cultist as sacrifice? does he require payment from the cultist in exchange for the monastery, and the cultist need to bring him a victim for the phylactery? Then the knight of Sumular seem to be good align, but there leader gave a potion of Lichdom to hsi brother? a potion that require countless soul and dark evil ritual to create in order to save his life? What kind of good align knight, will allow his brother eternal damnation by trapping his brother soul in a phylactery and using one the most foul and evil item in existance to save his borther life? AM I missing something or does the author simply forgot about the evil nature of the lich existance and we need to believe that at less 1 lich in exisance his actually of non evil alignment and do not need to consume humanoid souls to survive?
#2 Kalani May 28, 2015 7:58:50	There are examples of good liches from previous editions. Most good liches are elves. In fact, in the world of Eberron the valinar elves (iirc) turn their ancestors into liches who then provide advice and counsel. Good liches are commonly referred to as arch liches. They also exist in Faerun but are exceedingly rare http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Archlich
#3 Ainulindalion May 28, 2015 8:01:31	There are also baelnorn liches (good (or at least, not evil) elf liches) in Faerun, though I'm pretty sure the majority of them were destroyed in the Sundering (see destruction of Myth Drannor).
#4 Kalani May 28, 2015 8:15:02	Baelnorn! That's the name for the elf lich (couldn't remember for the life of me what it was). As I said previously - most good liches are elven baelnorn (maybe 90-95%). In the link I provided above - only a handful of good liches existed in Faerun who weren't baelnorn (5 or 6 iirc). They are all named in the wiki. Whether they still live is another story.
#5 QwertyAzerty May 28, 2015 9:04:20	do we know anything about archliches? the article said the process to become a archlich is very similar to one to become a lich, but I doubt that a pact with Orcus, and countless soul bind to a phylactery and a consumption of soul on a regular basis would be part of the Archlich ritual, so I am curious to know with what they are replaced? or is that information lost even to the readers and DM?
#6 Kalani May 28, 2015 9:19:54	Arch liches don't have phylacteries in previous editions. Their soul remains bound to their body. One of the old 3.5 FR books described their stats in detail but I forget which one (I may even have it on my shelf). After a quick google search I found the following references Good lich- Monsters of Faerun (3.0). Updated in the Players Guide to Faerun web supplement (3.5) Good lich template - Libris Mortis (3.5) Dry Lich - Sandstorm (3.5) Baelnorn - ?? Eberron good lich - ?? Suel Lich - ?? Archlich is a 4e Epic Destiny.
(Reply to #4) TheBreen	Kalani wrote:
#8 QwertyAzerty May 28, 2015 9:28:11	The lich in the module is name and his name can be found on the wiki page. I just find it sad that the author coul dnot mention to the DM that it's an archlich and that he doesn,t look like a regular lich (transparent mummyfied skin instead of rotting decaying flesh remains
#9 Kalani May 28, 2015 9:35:49	You're right. Renwick Caradoon is one of the named Faerun archliches. It seems he survived the Sundering. Whether he survived unchanged by the effects of the Spellplague or Sundering however is yet to be revealed. IOWs - play him as he is described in the adventure, even if it departs from his previous abilities, motivations, descriptions (I wouldn't know - haven't read that far yet).
#10 Byakugan01 May 30, 2015 6:44:09	Qwerty, for someone who insisted Tiamat had to be played like a robot, you should be able to tell that Renwick isn't a combat encounter. Besides...the PCs don't provide him with enough XP to be worth wasting spell slots on. He's so overwhelmingly powerful if the PCs have -any- sense they will pick their jaws up from the floor after they figure out he is actually a lich and it should for the first time in the adventure make the pcs realize just how big and encompasing the forces of elemental evil have become. . I can think of about a dozen comparable situations to the 'brother saving him with a curse'. Most notably, Raistlin and his brother(sturm?) had very much the same type of relationship. Romeo and Juliet is a twist on it. Classic tragedy. Basically every season of Supernatural.
#11 Byakugan01 May 30, 2015 6:57:45	I have a paladin in my table with a beef against undead. But he is an experienced player and he knows that 'lich' is pc speak for 'plz for the love of God don't piss him off'. If he has read spoilers I know he will try to get the free magic items, but otherwise i can't predict what he will do. I've been gaming for 20 years and I've never actually fought a lich. Every time we have encountered one we either ran our asses off, or died horribly within a round or 2.
#12 Kalani May 30, 2015 9:07:18	Raistlin and Caramon. Raistlin's curse had nothing to do with his brother. It was given to him by the head of the order (Par-Salian) to teach him humility as he was prophesied to be a weapon (for good or ill was uncertain).
#13 Byakugan01 May 31, 2015 4:03:20	Couldn't remember the brother's name heh. I read several of the books in the setting though, and the brother was pretty much always putting himself in harms way or others, if it meant protecting his 'feeble' brother. Raistlin was more sinister...maybe not the right word....self-serving(think thats pretty accurate) about it though and used that to his advantage on more than one occasion. My only point was that people can rationalize doing horrific things to protect the ones they love. It is a common theme. Does make you wonder though, in a world where magic is common and people get raised from the dead frequently, why did he have to resort to a potion of lichdom in the first place? We had a game once where a character got lifedrained to death by a wight, rose up as a new wight then trapped inside an exploded bead of force with one of those ooze that deals acid damage to non-living matter. maybe it was a black pudding? Anyways, there was NO way he was coming back from that without a resurrection, lol.
#14 shivafang May 31, 2015 6:25:18	For me, the only question is how much XP to give for encountering the Lich. I typically give XP for encountering via RP even if they don't fight them in combat (IE - using diplomacy or negotiation to get past) but the Lich is worth so much XP. I think I gave my online group 20% as of it's XP.
(Reply to #14) Ainulindalion	shivafang wrote:
#16 QwertyAzerty Jun 01, 2015 5:13:54	Byakugan01 wrote:
#17 Byakugan01 Jun 01, 2015 5:44:05	You basically asked for a bunch of background information on NPCs that is actually pretty interesting. My players are 1 session away from heading to the Lich lair too, and i agree there isn't a ton of information about it in the module. Best reason I can think of is because the 3Rd party creators of the adventure might not have wanted to step on others intellectual property by plagiarizing existing lore on him? Or maybe they just didn't know. It was pretty clear from the write up that he wasn't an 'evil' lich. A. The cult set up camp in his back yard and he neither joined them nor slaughtered them. B. It says he has no desire to kill. C. The little bit of info they do give ties him directly to the Knights of Samalar, which are known to be 'good guys'. D. It is rather easy to get him to interact favorably to the PCs, and even if the PCs are very dumb and do attack him, he doesn't retaliate with lethal force. All these things strongly indicate that he is at least Neutrally aligned. As far as AL is concerned, his interaction with the PCs should be very limited. Personally I think its a bit much of a deviation from how I expect liches to act. Vecna, Samaster(is that right?). Etc. but it had enough info to be an interresting non combat encounter.
#18 QwertyAzerty Jun 01, 2015 6:59:00	Byakugan01 wrote:
#19 shivafang Jun 01, 2015 8:52:41	Ainulindalion wrote:
(Reply to #19) TheBreen	shivafang wrote:
#21 shivafang Jun 01, 2015 11:41:30	TheBreen wrote:
#22 Kalani Jun 01, 2015 12:06:45	I have not looked at the relevant encounter but AL does not allow DMs to award non-combat XP unless specifically listed for the encounter. It is for this reason that many DMs had issues when running RoT as none of that XP was listed due to the modules use of milestone XP It is also the probable cause of why HotDQ and PotA seem to fall short on XP (as the designers probably assume DMs will award non-com XP for role playing). That and the fact that Encounters makes use of XP caps (while the adventures don't). As such, players don't gain enough XP in Encounters to reach the intended level and then are forced to play catchup when running the hardcover. My personal recommendation to DMs is that if you plan on running the hardcover post-encounters, run it from the beginning. XP caps are only used if running the Encounters document (DDENx). Harcover versions are exempt from XP caps which helps smooth the level gap
#23 shivafang Jun 01, 2015 13:12:18	Kalani wrote:
#24 Kalani Jun 01, 2015 13:37:55	Oh right, I misunderstood where the XP was coming from. Yes, if you overcome a creature (by any means) you should be awarded full XP for overcoming the encounter (as if they had slain the targets). In respect to the Lich however, I do not see this as a combat encounter. As such, unless the encounter is listed with a certain XP for overcoming it - the Lich encounter should award no XP (as characters cannot, and should not be fighting it - and therefore have 0% chance of defeating it via combat). Since you will never award combat XP for the Lich encounter, you should not award non-com experience either.
#25 RulesJD Jun 01, 2015 14:34:33	Kalani wrote:
#26 Kalani Jun 01, 2015 14:41:41	Actually, unless the Lich is an obstacle to overcome - there is no XP inherrent in the encounter (unless specifically stated in the encounter description). An obstacle which is bypassed by non-combat means (eg. stealth or diplomacy) still earns full XP as if you defeated some (or all) of the creatures. This encounter does not sound like an obstacle - but rather a social encounter which may turn ugly if PCs go all murder-hobo. In respect to the L11 party, sure - they could always come back and kill the Lich and earn themselves some XP for doing so - except for the fact that AL DMs are not allowed to create new combat encounters. As such, I would simply have the Lich go AWOL when the PCs attempt their little duck-hunt. If a social encounter turns sour and becomes a combat encounter naturally - award XP as appropriate, but players who go out of their way to kill something get no rewards. An example of this which occurs in Expeditions is parties which go on a dragon hunt against the Green Dragon of Phlan. It earns them no rewards, and does not even grant bonus XP (as expeditions have XP caps).
#27 RulesJD Jun 01, 2015 19:31:44	Kalani wrote:
#28 shivafang Jun 01, 2015 21:42:25	RulesJD wrote:
#29 Kalani Jun 01, 2015 22:02:10	I will state for the record that while I am not infallible, as Shivafang said above - I maintain open dialogue with the admins and RCs and am extremely active in all discussions I am privy to. As such - some of my answers are predicated on comments made during such discussions. I also make every effort to give accurate answers as I hate giving erroneous advice (but it does happen from time to time, esp. If I misremember something) Admittedly (as I stated above), I am not privy to all details surrounding the Lich encounter (as I am not reading ahead). As such - my statements were carefully worded with phrases such as "if X then Y". If X is not true then, by logical extension - neither is Y.
#30 QwertyAzerty Jun 02, 2015 5:19:28	In one of the DDEX you talk with a friendly vampire Show (member of one of the 5 faction and it give you your mission for the module)
#31 shivafang Jun 02, 2015 8:30:37	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #31) QwertyAzerty	shivafang wrote:
#33 Kalani Jun 02, 2015 9:53:48	If you peacefully overcome / bypass a combat encounter (or an encounter which is designed to be an either/or encounter) - you receive full XP for overcoming said encounter. The encounters in Feathergale spire are an example of such an either/or encounter. Show They surreptitiously gather information on the party, in an effort to determine if they are a threat or not. If found to be a threat, they launch a surprise attack. As such, they are simply looking for an excuse to attack the party, but will gauge their opponents first.
#34 shivafang Jun 02, 2015 11:18:06	QwertyAzerty wrote:
(Reply to #34) QwertyAzerty	shivafang wrote:
#36 shivafang Jun 02, 2015 11:30:05	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#37 RulesJD Jun 02, 2015 15:33:12	shivafang wrote:
(Reply to #37) TheBreen	RulesJD wrote:
#39 imaginaryfriend Jun 02, 2015 15:57:55	RulesJD wrote:
#40 RulesJD Jun 02, 2015 19:09:58	imaginaryfriend wrote:
#41 Kalani Jun 02, 2015 20:15:31	Time stop is a 9th level spell Tier 4 characters cannot play the adventure period. Tier 3 characters cannot play chapter 3 or 4. Only tier 1 and 2 characters can face the lich (and they cannot hope to defeat it)
#42 RulesJD Jun 02, 2015 21:30:58	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #40) TheBreen	RulesJD wrote:
#44 Kalani Jun 02, 2015 22:07:59	TheBreen wrote:
#45 Byakugan01 Jun 03, 2015 5:38:19	It is pretty clear the Lich is not intended to be a life-or death batle...but it is a bit of an idiot-test. The first tactic it suggests he uses isn't even a valid tactic within the rules, but I am plannign on DMing it to script, but I like the 'award CR = to party level' idea. FYI casting cloudkill during timestop immediately ends the timestop...meaning he cast a 9th level spell basically for nothing. Cloudkill is actually a deadly spell for 4th level PCs if they don't immediately realize they have to move out of it. By definition that makes it a combat encounter if a of combat occurs. There is nothing in the writeup that actually says he isn't worth XP...and I am not sure what you are talking about as far as listed xp is concerned...almost all the monsters in that adventure are listed exactly the same way as the lich. The only encounter I know of that isn't expressed in the form of an explicit bolded text that tells you what stat block to look up is The Dark Lady, and only because you have to apply a template to her. That part of her description was pretty easy to miss, and nobody has even fought her as far as I know....and she is probably more dangerous than the Lich...and she has an 'unspecified' treasure hoard which is really annoying for AL.
#46 Byakugan01 Jun 03, 2015 5:44:01	Wait....are we saying that because a Bullette is not given a stat-block in the actual hardback book that one would be worth 0 exp to a party?
#47 QwertyAzerty Jun 03, 2015 6:15:18	Byakugan01 wrote:
#48 Byakugan01 Jun 04, 2015 9:40:26	Wierd. I read that differently than you. If a cloudkill pops up around you, you are most definitely being affected by it, even before you gey a turn to take damage. You can't even cast a fog cloud around someone because it affects their vision.
(Reply to #48) QwertyAzerty	Byakugan01 wrote:
#50 Byakugan01 Jun 05, 2015 7:59:40	Seems like an appropriate thread to me. We are talking about what the lich and his abilities. I agree Time Stop is horrible in this edition. But i only think that because of the overly restrictive wording. If we assume that your spells function normally while you are sped up, then fog cloud/cloudkill fill their -area of effect- when you cast them. Your interpretation seems to suggest you could cast 5 fireballs while timestopped and they wouldnt explode until the end of time stop. Which is exactly the sort of shennanigans that got it nerfed so hard.
(Reply to #50) QwertyAzerty	Byakugan01 wrote:
(Reply to #51) TheBreen	Somewhat silly part of my reply: I had to look up 'instantaneous.' Circular definition; 'happening in an instant.' It turns out an 'instant' (noun) is a very short space of time, but not necessarily literally no time at all. English is funny. QwertyAzerty wrote:
#53 CPTGravis Jun 05, 2015 11:52:52	TheBreen wrote:
(Reply to #53) TheBreen	CPTGravis wrote:
#55 Ainulindalion Jun 05, 2015 12:12:00	Princes of the Apocalypse Section (Level 5): Show Sacred Stone Monastery + Tremors + The Long Road Unmodified Available Experience: 44900 + 900 + 1750 (47550 XP) (Includes full XP for the Lich encounter) *Level 6 Break: 7500 XP/PC to advance* 3 adventurers: 15850 XP each, add 0 XP min. 4 adventurers: 11887 XP each, add 0 XP min. 5 adventurers: 9510 XP each, add 0 XP min. 6 adventurers: 7925 XP each, add 0 XP min. 7 adventurers: 6792 XP each, add 4950 XP min. No Lich Experience: 11900 + 900 + 1750 (14550 XP) *Level 6 Break: 7500 XP/PC to advance* 3 adventurers: 4850 XP each, add 7950 XP min. 4 adventurers: 3637 XP each, add 15450 XP min. 5 adventurers: 2910 XP each, add 22950 XP min. 6 adventurers: 2425 XP each, add 30450 XP min. 7 adventurers: 2078 XP each, add 37950 XP min.
(Reply to #53) QwertyAzerty	CPTGravis wrote:
(Reply to #55) Pauper	Ainulindalion wrote:
#58 MasterNamer Jun 11, 2015 11:00:44	Has this question been making the rounds in the secret AL message board?
#59 Karth_GoblinKnight Jun 13, 2015 18:11:34	While reading the lich social encounter description, it occurred to me that, if a lich is friendly enough to the party to keep their enemies out of the monastery (assuming the social encounter goes well, of course), it might offer other types of non-combat aid. This leads me to two questions regarding legality of actioms under AL rules: - Could a Wizard treat a good social outcome with the lich as an excuse to find new spells to add to his/her spellbook per the usual spell copying rules? (In-world, this would be like the lich tutoring the Wizard or else allowing access to his accumulated lore). This hypothetical scenario is potentially a very deep well of spells to copy, since the lich stat block lists a good number of spells, and it logically would know many more which just aren't prepared. - Other than the tunnel leading to the Earth Temple and beyond, a lich-guarded temple makes for one superb base. Do AL rules allow a party to convert the temple (or any of the Haunted Keeps, or any other secure location) into a Forward Operating Base for their subterranean operations, using some of the wealth which will inevitable accumulate in order to bring in hirelings (a legal service in PHB) and maybe even get a caster whom can provide the AL-legal spellcasting services at this forward position? These are just thoughts that occur to me as someone trying to run an AL group for some very inventive players while playing a PC in another AL game whom would attempt both of the above things.
#60 Kalani Jun 13, 2015 18:31:07	Karth_GoblinKnight wrote:
#61 Karth_GoblinKnight Jun 14, 2015 6:24:37	T'was worth a shot. Thanks for clarifying!
#62 Byakugan01 Jun 14, 2015 20:49:31	In a home game, a wizard could learn spells from other spell casters very easily. But since AL craps on wizards, you can't even buy an hour to LOOK at a spellbook to copy a 1st level spell. Not even if you go to metropolitan cities like Waterdeep that are crawling with Mage guilds and Harpers.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

QwertyAzerty

May 28, 2015 6:10:46

In PotA there is a Lich, but that lich can hardly reach it's phylactery, having it hidden in hotile terriroty. So how does it feed teh phylactery the soul require to not become a demi lich? or his the lich on his way to become a demi lich?

If the Lich does feed the phylactery, does he use the cultist as sacrifice? does he require payment from the cultist in exchange for the monastery, and the cultist need to bring him a victim for the phylactery?

Then the knight of Sumular seem to be good align, but there leader gave a potion of Lichdom to hsi brother? a potion that require countless soul and dark evil ritual to create in order to save his life? What kind of good align knight, will allow his brother eternal damnation by trapping his brother soul in a phylactery and using one the most foul and evil item in existance to save his borther life?

AM I missing something or does the author simply forgot about the evil nature of the lich existance and we need to believe that at less 1 lich in exisance his actually of non evil alignment and do not need to consume humanoid souls to survive?

Kalani

May 28, 2015 7:58:50

There are examples of good liches from previous editions. Most good liches are elves. In fact, in the world of Eberron the valinar elves (iirc) turn their ancestors into liches who then provide advice and counsel.

Good liches are commonly referred to as arch liches. They also exist in Faerun but are exceedingly rare

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Archlich

Ainulindalion

May 28, 2015 8:01:31

There are also baelnorn liches (good (or at least, not evil) elf liches) in Faerun, though I'm pretty sure the majority of them were destroyed in the Sundering (see destruction of Myth Drannor).

Kalani

May 28, 2015 8:15:02

Baelnorn! That's the name for the elf lich (couldn't remember for the life of me what it was). As I said previously - most good liches are elven baelnorn (maybe 90-95%).

In the link I provided above - only a handful of good liches existed in Faerun who weren't baelnorn (5 or 6 iirc). They are all named in the wiki. Whether they still live is another story.

QwertyAzerty

May 28, 2015 9:04:20

do we know anything about archliches? the article said the process to become a archlich is very similar to one to become a lich, but I doubt that a pact with Orcus, and countless soul bind to a phylactery and a consumption of soul on a regular basis would be part of the Archlich ritual, so I am curious to know with what they are replaced? or is that information lost even to the readers and DM?

Kalani

May 28, 2015 9:19:54

Arch liches don't have phylacteries in previous editions. Their soul remains bound to their body. One of the old 3.5 FR books described their stats in detail but I forget which one (I may even have it on my shelf).

After a quick google search I found the following references

Good lich- Monsters of Faerun (3.0). Updated in the Players Guide to Faerun web supplement (3.5)

Good lich template - Libris Mortis (3.5)

Dry Lich - Sandstorm (3.5)

Baelnorn - ??

Eberron good lich - ??

Suel Lich - ??

Archlich is a 4e Epic Destiny.

(Reply to #4)

TheBreen

Kalani wrote:

QwertyAzerty

May 28, 2015 9:28:11

The lich in the module is name and his name can be found on the wiki page. I just find it sad that the author coul dnot mention to the DM that it's an archlich and that he doesn,t look like a regular lich (transparent mummyfied skin instead of rotting decaying flesh remains

Kalani

May 28, 2015 9:35:49

You're right. Renwick Caradoon is one of the named Faerun archliches. It seems he survived the Sundering. Whether he survived unchanged by the effects of the Spellplague or Sundering however is yet to be revealed.

IOWs - play him as he is described in the adventure, even if it departs from his previous abilities, motivations, descriptions (I wouldn't know - haven't read that far yet).

#10

Byakugan01

May 30, 2015 6:44:09

Qwerty, for someone who insisted Tiamat had to be played like a robot, you should be able to tell that Renwick isn't a combat encounter. Besides...the PCs don't provide him with enough XP to be worth wasting spell slots on. He's so overwhelmingly powerful if the PCs have -any- sense they will pick their jaws up from the floor after they figure out he is actually a lich and it should for the first time in the adventure make the pcs realize just how big and encompasing the forces of elemental evil have become. .

I can think of about a dozen comparable situations to the 'brother saving him with a curse'.

Most notably, Raistlin and his brother(sturm?) had very much the same type of relationship.

Romeo and Juliet is a twist on it. Classic tragedy.

Basically every season of Supernatural.

#11

Byakugan01

May 30, 2015 6:57:45

I have a paladin in my table with a beef against undead. But he is an experienced player and he knows that 'lich' is pc speak for 'plz for the love of God don't piss him off'.

If he has read spoilers I know he will try to get the free magic items, but otherwise i can't predict what he will do.

I've been gaming for 20 years and I've never actually fought a lich. Every time we have encountered one we either ran our asses off, or died horribly within a round or 2.

#12

Kalani

May 30, 2015 9:07:18

Raistlin and Caramon. Raistlin's curse had nothing to do with his brother. It was given to him by the head of the order (Par-Salian) to teach him humility as he was prophesied to be a weapon (for good or ill was uncertain).

#13

Byakugan01

May 31, 2015 4:03:20

Couldn't remember the brother's name heh.

I read several of the books in the setting though, and the brother was pretty much always putting himself in harms way or others, if it meant protecting his 'feeble' brother. Raistlin was more sinister...maybe not the right word....self-serving(think thats pretty accurate) about it though and used that to his advantage on more than one occasion.

My only point was that people can rationalize doing horrific things to protect the ones they love. It is a common theme.

Does make you wonder though, in a world where magic is common and people get raised from the dead frequently, why did he have to resort to a potion of lichdom in the first place?

We had a game once where a character got lifedrained to death by a wight, rose up as a new wight then trapped inside an exploded bead of force with one of those ooze that deals acid damage to non-living matter. maybe it was a black pudding? Anyways, there was NO way he was coming back from that without a resurrection, lol.

#14

shivafang

May 31, 2015 6:25:18

For me, the only question is how much XP to give for encountering the Lich. I typically give XP for encountering via RP even if they don't fight them in combat (IE - using diplomacy or negotiation to get past) but the Lich is worth so much XP. I think I gave my online group 20% as of it's XP.

(Reply to #14)

Ainulindalion

shivafang wrote:

#16

QwertyAzerty

Jun 01, 2015 5:13:54

Byakugan01 wrote:

#17

Byakugan01

Jun 01, 2015 5:44:05

You basically asked for a bunch of background information on NPCs that is actually pretty interesting.

My players are 1 session away from heading to the Lich lair too, and i agree there isn't a ton of information about it in the module. Best reason I can think of is because the 3Rd party creators of the adventure might not have wanted to step on others intellectual property by plagiarizing existing lore on him? Or maybe they just didn't know.

It was pretty clear from the write up that he wasn't an 'evil' lich. A. The cult set up camp in his back yard and he neither joined them nor slaughtered them. B. It says he has no desire to kill. C. The little bit of info they do give ties him directly to the Knights of Samalar, which are known to be 'good guys'. D. It is rather easy to get him to interact favorably to the PCs, and even if the PCs are very dumb and do attack him, he doesn't retaliate with lethal force. All these things strongly indicate that he is at least Neutrally aligned.

As far as AL is concerned, his interaction with the PCs should be very limited. Personally I think its a bit much of a deviation from how I expect liches to act. Vecna, Samaster(is that right?). Etc. but it had enough info to be an interresting non combat encounter.

#18

QwertyAzerty

Jun 01, 2015 6:59:00

Byakugan01 wrote:

#19

shivafang

Jun 01, 2015 8:52:41

Ainulindalion wrote:

(Reply to #19)

TheBreen

shivafang wrote:

#21

shivafang

Jun 01, 2015 11:41:30

TheBreen wrote:

#22

Kalani

Jun 01, 2015 12:06:45

I have not looked at the relevant encounter but AL does not allow DMs to award non-combat XP unless specifically listed for the encounter.

It is for this reason that many DMs had issues when running RoT as none of that XP was listed due to the modules use of milestone XP

It is also the probable cause of why HotDQ and PotA seem to fall short on XP (as the designers probably assume DMs will award non-com XP for role playing).

That and the fact that Encounters makes use of XP caps (while the adventures don't). As such, players don't gain enough XP in Encounters to reach the intended level and then are forced to play catchup when running the hardcover.

My personal recommendation to DMs is that if you plan on running the hardcover post-encounters, run it from the beginning. XP caps are only used if running the Encounters document (DDENx). Harcover versions are exempt from XP caps which helps smooth the level gap

#23

shivafang

Jun 01, 2015 13:12:18

Kalani wrote:

#24

Kalani

Jun 01, 2015 13:37:55

Oh right, I misunderstood where the XP was coming from. Yes, if you overcome a creature (by any means) you should be awarded full XP for overcoming the encounter (as if they had slain the targets).

In respect to the Lich however, I do not see this as a combat encounter. As such, unless the encounter is listed with a certain XP for overcoming it - the Lich encounter should award no XP (as characters cannot, and should not be fighting it - and therefore have 0% chance of defeating it via combat). Since you will never award combat XP for the Lich encounter, you should not award non-com experience either.

#25

RulesJD

Jun 01, 2015 14:34:33

Kalani wrote:

#26

Kalani

Jun 01, 2015 14:41:41

Actually, unless the Lich is an obstacle to overcome - there is no XP inherrent in the encounter (unless specifically stated in the encounter description). An obstacle which is bypassed by non-combat means (eg. stealth or diplomacy) still earns full XP as if you defeated some (or all) of the creatures. This encounter does not sound like an obstacle - but rather a social encounter which may turn ugly if PCs go all murder-hobo.

In respect to the L11 party, sure - they could always come back and kill the Lich and earn themselves some XP for doing so - except for the fact that AL DMs are not allowed to create new combat encounters. As such, I would simply have the Lich go AWOL when the PCs attempt their little duck-hunt. If a social encounter turns sour and becomes a combat encounter naturally - award XP as appropriate, but players who go out of their way to kill something get no rewards.

An example of this which occurs in Expeditions is parties which go on a dragon hunt against the Green Dragon of Phlan. It earns them no rewards, and does not even grant bonus XP (as expeditions have XP caps).

#27

RulesJD

Jun 01, 2015 19:31:44

Kalani wrote:

#28

shivafang

Jun 01, 2015 21:42:25

RulesJD wrote:

#29

Kalani

Jun 01, 2015 22:02:10

I will state for the record that while I am not infallible, as Shivafang said above - I maintain open dialogue with the admins and RCs and am extremely active in all discussions I am privy to.

As such - some of my answers are predicated on comments made during such discussions. I also make every effort to give accurate answers as I hate giving erroneous advice (but it does happen from time to time, esp. If I misremember something)

Admittedly (as I stated above), I am not privy to all details surrounding the Lich encounter (as I am not reading ahead).

As such - my statements were carefully worded with phrases such as "if X then Y". If X is not true then, by logical extension - neither is Y.

#30

QwertyAzerty

Jun 02, 2015 5:19:28

In one of the DDEX you talk with a friendly vampire

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(member of one of the 5 faction and it give you your mission for the module)

#31

shivafang

Jun 02, 2015 8:30:37

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #31)

QwertyAzerty

shivafang wrote:

#33

Kalani

Jun 02, 2015 9:53:48

If you peacefully overcome / bypass a combat encounter (or an encounter which is designed to be an either/or encounter) - you receive full XP for overcoming said encounter.

The encounters in Feathergale spire are an example of such an either/or encounter.

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They surreptitiously gather information on the party, in an effort to determine if they are a threat or not. If found to be a threat, they launch a surprise attack. As such, they are simply looking for an excuse to attack the party, but will gauge their opponents first.

#34

shivafang

Jun 02, 2015 11:18:06

QwertyAzerty wrote:

(Reply to #34)

QwertyAzerty

shivafang wrote:

#36

shivafang

Jun 02, 2015 11:30:05

QwertyAzerty wrote:

#37

RulesJD

Jun 02, 2015 15:33:12

shivafang wrote:

(Reply to #37)

TheBreen

RulesJD wrote:

#39

imaginaryfriend

Jun 02, 2015 15:57:55

RulesJD wrote:

#40

RulesJD

Jun 02, 2015 19:09:58

imaginaryfriend wrote:

#41

Kalani

Jun 02, 2015 20:15:31

Time stop is a 9th level spell Tier 4 characters cannot play the adventure period. Tier 3 characters cannot play chapter 3 or 4. Only tier 1 and 2 characters can face the lich (and they cannot hope to defeat it)

#42

RulesJD

Jun 02, 2015 21:30:58

Kalani wrote:

(Reply to #40)

TheBreen

RulesJD wrote:

#44

Kalani

Jun 02, 2015 22:07:59

TheBreen wrote:

#45

Byakugan01

Jun 03, 2015 5:38:19

It is pretty clear the Lich is not intended to be a life-or death batle...but it is a bit of an idiot-test.

The first tactic it suggests he uses isn't even a valid tactic within the rules, but I am plannign on DMing it to script, but I like the 'award CR = to party level' idea. FYI casting cloudkill during timestop immediately ends the timestop...meaning he cast a 9th level spell basically for nothing. Cloudkill is actually a deadly spell for 4th level PCs if they don't immediately realize they have to move out of it. By definition that makes it a combat encounter if a of combat occurs.

There is nothing in the writeup that actually says he isn't worth XP...and I am not sure what you are talking about as far as listed xp is concerned...almost all the monsters in that adventure are listed exactly the same way as the lich. The only encounter I know of that isn't expressed in the form of an explicit bolded text that tells you what stat block to look up is The Dark Lady, and only because you have to apply a template to her. That part of her description was pretty easy to miss, and nobody has even fought her as far as I know....and she is probably more dangerous than the Lich...and she has an 'unspecified' treasure hoard which is really annoying for AL.

#46

Byakugan01

Jun 03, 2015 5:44:01

Wait....are we saying that because a Bullette is not given a stat-block in the actual hardback book that one would be worth 0 exp to a party?

#47

QwertyAzerty

Jun 03, 2015 6:15:18

Byakugan01 wrote:

#48

Byakugan01

Jun 04, 2015 9:40:26

Wierd. I read that differently than you.

If a cloudkill pops up around you, you are most definitely being affected by it, even before you gey a turn to take damage.

You can't even cast a fog cloud around someone because it affects their vision.

(Reply to #48)

QwertyAzerty

Byakugan01 wrote:

#50

Byakugan01

Jun 05, 2015 7:59:40

Seems like an appropriate thread to me. We are talking about what the lich and his abilities.

I agree Time Stop is horrible in this edition. But i only think that because of the overly restrictive wording.

If we assume that your spells function normally while you are sped up, then fog cloud/cloudkill fill their -area of effect- when you cast them.

Your interpretation seems to suggest you could cast 5 fireballs while timestopped and they wouldnt explode until the end of time stop. Which is exactly the sort of shennanigans that got it nerfed so hard.

(Reply to #50)

QwertyAzerty

Byakugan01 wrote:

(Reply to #51)

TheBreen

Somewhat silly part of my reply: I had to look up 'instantaneous.' Circular definition; 'happening in an instant.' It turns out an 'instant' (noun) is a very short space of time, but not necessarily literally no time at all. English is funny.

QwertyAzerty wrote:

#53

CPTGravis

Jun 05, 2015 11:52:52

TheBreen wrote:

(Reply to #53)

TheBreen

CPTGravis wrote:

#55

Ainulindalion

Jun 05, 2015 12:12:00

Princes of the Apocalypse Section (Level 5):

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Sacred Stone Monastery + Tremors + The Long Road

Unmodified Available Experience: 44900 + 900 + 1750 (47550 XP) (Includes full XP for the Lich encounter)

Level 6 Break: 7500 XP/PC to advance

3 adventurers: 15850 XP each, add 0 XP min.

4 adventurers: 11887 XP each, add 0 XP min.

5 adventurers: 9510 XP each, add 0 XP min.

6 adventurers: 7925 XP each, add 0 XP min.

7 adventurers: 6792 XP each, add 4950 XP min.

No Lich Experience: 11900 + 900 + 1750 (14550 XP)

Level 6 Break: 7500 XP/PC to advance

3 adventurers: 4850 XP each, add 7950 XP min.

4 adventurers: 3637 XP each, add 15450 XP min.

5 adventurers: 2910 XP each, add 22950 XP min.

6 adventurers: 2425 XP each, add 30450 XP min.

7 adventurers: 2078 XP each, add 37950 XP min.

(Reply to #53)

QwertyAzerty

CPTGravis wrote:

(Reply to #55)

Pauper

Ainulindalion wrote:

#58

MasterNamer

Jun 11, 2015 11:00:44

Has this question been making the rounds in the secret AL message board?

#59

Karth_GoblinKnight

Jun 13, 2015 18:11:34

While reading the lich social encounter description, it occurred to me that, if a lich is friendly enough to the party to keep their enemies out of the monastery (assuming the social encounter goes well, of course), it might offer other types of non-combat aid. This leads me to two questions regarding legality of actioms under AL rules:

- Could a Wizard treat a good social outcome with the lich as an excuse to find new spells to add to his/her spellbook per the usual spell copying rules? (In-world, this would be like the lich tutoring the Wizard or else allowing access to his accumulated lore). This hypothetical scenario is potentially a very deep well of spells to copy, since the lich stat block lists a good number of spells, and it logically would know many more which just aren't prepared.

- Other than the tunnel leading to the Earth Temple and beyond, a lich-guarded temple makes for one superb base. Do AL rules allow a party to convert the temple (or any of the Haunted Keeps, or any other secure location) into a Forward Operating Base for their subterranean operations, using some of the wealth which will inevitable accumulate in order to bring in hirelings (a legal service in PHB) and maybe even get a caster whom can provide the AL-legal spellcasting services at this forward position?

These are just thoughts that occur to me as someone trying to run an AL group for some very inventive players while playing a PC in another AL game whom would attempt both of the above things.

#60

Kalani

Jun 13, 2015 18:31:07

Karth_GoblinKnight wrote:

#61

Karth_GoblinKnight

Jun 14, 2015 6:24:37

T'was worth a shot. Thanks for clarifying!

#62

Byakugan01

Jun 14, 2015 20:49:31

In a home game, a wizard could learn spells from other spell casters very easily. But since AL craps on wizards, you can't even buy an hour to LOOK at a spellbook to copy a 1st level spell. Not even if you go to metropolitan cities like Waterdeep that are crawling with Mage guilds and Harpers.