I'll leave this right here.
Then use the OP Wand of Viscid globs...you can get that at level 2/3 provided you're nuts enough to try and stand off with it's encounter.
At least the sword is counter-productive to the wand.
Or you could *NOT* put that info in the title, and instead tell people that you plan on giving out SPOILERS.....
Please edit your thread title....
Coredump00 wrote:
giving out spoiler about what? all this title say is that somewhere, somehow their might be a way to get a sunblade at level 2. I have no clue in what adventure (if it's even an AL legal adventure, considering some people post in the wrong forum).
spoier alert: in a movie the hero dies
EDIT: if you are going to come an say in which adventure and/or how you can get that sunblade at level 2 please you should use the spoiler box.
More spoilers.
Level 1.) Get out of problems.
Level 2.) Look everywhere for Sunblade. Hopefully you are not ebil.
Use Sunblade for viscid globs rod.
Break everything.
Sorsohka wrote:
Sorsohka wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Sorsohka wrote:
CoreyartustheSecond wrote:
As Skerrit has yet to comment on this thread - I strongly suggest you put spoilers in the heading at minimum for the following reasons:
- The admins are strongly opposed to players creating lists of what items are found in which module, where they are located, or players asking questions to learn such information.
- The admins and RCs have requested numerous times for players to add spoiler tags to any discussion on recently released adventures, regardless of how minor said spoiler may be.
- Many players wish to avoid any spoiler associated with an adventure they plan to play, so as to avoid ruining the surprise.
Sunblade at L2 is also a spoiler ridden title. Putting "Spoiler" in such a heading won't remove said spoiler as the title itself is a spoiler. Might I suggest something like:
- OotA Legendary Item [Spoilers].
That way, you aren't spoilering information in the title for those who wish to avoid all spoilers.
I would also refrain from telling players exactly where to find said item as the admins frown upon this. Its fine to discuss it in general terms (such as it being found in the Encounters portion of the adventure), but anything more specific than that would go against the intended goal which the admins have stated - which is for players to discover what an adventure contains by playing it, not simply looking up the information on a forum.
Kalani Vernon
LC - Calgary (Western Canada Region)
As Kalani said, just try to be polite and not spoil things for others.
You would think it would be a joke when somebody says sunblade at lv 2....in a module that Hasbro paid cash money to a 'boutique' to develop. Maybe they are going with the lowest bid? I guess you get what you pay for...unless you are the customer.
Yeah....
Great Weapon users have access to maybe the nastiest Magic Weapon in the entire AL, It causes all sorts of complaints, but at least you see it in Tier 2.
Pleanty of 1-handers in one adventure, but again.. you pick these up at later levels. Tier 2 at least.
Nothing for all of those polearm users that i've seen, much less crossbow users. You need to go to a convention and hope Fei Chen has something for you. I have no idea if he does. YMMV
This Legendary weapon you get before you exit out of a career-starting adventure.
And the rod is an even bigger offender.... people will say "But sunlight! But liquor!" Yeah okay, pleanty of dungeons/adventures are either inside, or things take place at night. The BBEG is usually down in the belly of the beast. It's an I-win stick when you are not in daylight. Just remember to keep it wrapped up and tucked away in your backpack to avoid breaking it.
The key property of the Sunblade is Finesse, in that a rogue can use it. All your Sneak Attack damage would be radiant, then.
Without spoilering the additional features of dawnbringer - I consider a sunblade as a useful tier 2 weapon appropriate for 7th level + characters. It is certainly powerful when you get it (at a point where most characters would be lucky to have a +1 weapon), but given how quickly the game proceeds to tier 2, I personally don't have a problem with this.
Sunblade
- +2 radiant longsword
- +1d8 radiant damage vs. undead.
- Emits 10-30 ft of sunlight (cannot be turned off completely) - both a benefit and a drawback.
- Finesse: So its a +2 rapier that deals slashing damage
In addition to the above, dawnbringer has one additional feature and is sentient. Being sentient by itself does not grant the PC any extra features and is comparable to having a non-combat retainer, and is not worth mentioning.
Put simply, dawnbringer is a sentient, glowing, +2 longsword that can cast a useful cleric spell. I can't understand why people are so scared by this weapon.... It shines brightest against vampires - and is excellent for killing undead...... Why? Why is this an issue?
Compare vs:
- Hazirawn (Tier 2 - should be tier 3-4): When unattuned, hazirawn is a mid-level tier 2 weapon (+1 greatsword, +1d6 necrotic). When attuned however, its power exceeds that of orcsplitter....I consider an attuned hazirawn to be a tier 4 weapon.
- Elemental weapons (Tier 2): I would consider dawnbringer comparable to the elemental weapons (or slightly less powerful) which can be obtained as early as 5th level. While it deals less damage than the elemental weapons (except vs. undead), all of its damage is radiant which is a nice bonus. Its secondary feature is also comparable to that of the elemental weapons. The elemental weapons however, also grant resistance and a language but at a cost.....
- Orcsplitter (Tier 3): Orcsplitter is a +2 greataxe with a few situational benefits. Except for the fact that it is sentient, lacks drawbacks, and is a heavy weapon - orcsplitter is less powerful than the 4 elemental weapons IMO. Orcsplitter can be traded for a tier 2 weapon (+2 weapon of choice that deals extra damage vs. orcs), or a variety of other features - some of which are IMO superior to orcsplitter (dwarven plate or the 30 SLs comes to mind).
Sure, you get dawnbringer slightly earlier than an elemental weapon - but the damage output doesn't exceed a normal longsword by much. Its main benefit is the fact that it bypasses resistance to magical slashing damage (which only comes into play vs. barbarians so is a moot point), and deals double damage vs. creatures with radiant vulnerability (which rarely occurs).
Ainulindalion wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
Granville7482 wrote:
No the key here is Level 2 or Level 3. It kind of depends on the DM.
Hazirawn, Orcsplitter and the elemental weapons require you to soldier through huge adventure paths.
This is a +2 weapon you get from cruising through a starting adventure ;) See? While everyone else tries to get a +1 through the level 1-5 career, you have a +2? At level 2-3? And it's a nice common weapon for just about any melee class to use. And a nightlight? And built in Assimar? Eh...ehhhhh????!?!?!!?!?
Sthrad is already screaming Ireena! over and over about all these little sunpokers comming out of the underdark. And he's not even in print yet.
And again...Wand of Viscid Globs. Point and restrain for an hour. No save. If you can hit it with an attack cantrip roll, you can glue anyone to anything. Points if you glue Yeenoghu or Baphomet, BBEG's with no way to escape!
To help those that have not yet actually read the adventure... Chapter 2 gives lots of info about traversing on land in the Underdark. It is meant to be used repeatedly by folks continuing with the hardback adventure. It mostly deals with randome terrain random creature encounters, but it does have 4 set-piece mini-dungeons. The adventure clearly states that these mini-adventures are optional, it further clarifies that they were designed with the intent of spreading them out over time since the party will be travelling in the Underdark many times throughout the complete adventure.
Now, if you, as the DM, look at that and decide "Hey, instead of waiting, I think I will use this one particular optional mini-adventure while my players are still second level", that says a lot more about you as a DM than about the adventure. Personally, I will be sticking with one (or two) of the other optional mini-adventures for their trip to Slublubland, and save that mini-adventure for their later travels, when they are higher level.
As for the wand.... just how do you expect a bunch of first level PCs, with no real gear, to take out enough drow, elite drow, quaggoths, etc to get to the one guy with that item? Yes, as the DM, you could purposely arrange things to make it possible, but again, that is on you, not the adventure. The way the adventure is written, it should be nearly impossible to get that wand. (I guess, if they get captured later, and are higher level... it *might* become possible....but that is really a different issue.)
Kalani wrote:
Coredump, you guessed wrong. If you want to keep trolling me across multiple threads, consider providing reasons you disagree with me, as opposed to repeated attempts at character assasination. I'm here to help AL improve itself...Why are you here?
My preliminary reading sofar has me revising my original opinions. I still hate the 'all your **** is gone and you are a prisoner that essentially can't fight back' trope. Most players hate having their control of their characters taken away, especially in this particular way. Very railroady.
That said, the content of the chapter is pretty solid. The NPCs are interesting and varied, and their connections to the other areas are fascinating. I would very much enjoy roleplaying through meeting most of them. But not in the presented circumstances.
If I ran this chapter I would narrate through to where the PCs escape with the NPCs and they could be holed up for a while. They would have plenty of time to meet the NPCs and hear their stories, then the drow would 'catch up' with them and they would be in control of their fates from there.
Byakugan01 wrote:
THe double interesting thing about this is the Escape and then the CHASE. I think a lot of people are glossing over the Chase part. It dosnt make sense that these Slaves escape (and obv high value because they are wanted back in captivity not quite dead) and even when the party escapes now they have to deal with the fact they cant even short rest or long rest for fear of being attacked. I think its awesome, because it may bring up cool ways of the pcs trying to get that rest in and its going to teach new players the art of resource management.
The chase bit is one of the better parts of the adventure. Really though, you should be setting up an ambush at some point too confront it.
Spoilers below.
You can have a quaggoth and a gelatnious cube as allies, among other things like goblin daredevils and wererats, possibly some baby hook horrors. It's not like your fight will be 4/5 PCs vs Drow slaving party. Then you have the sunblade which craps on drow. That sword may even be the turning point between running away and deciding to fight back. Once the hunted become the hunters and you can manage to get a terrain advantage and a few levels under your belt + equiping some of the NPCs, I dont see it being so bad. Just giving the orc a two-handed weapon makes him combat worthy.
The enemy party is a Priestess of Lolth, a Priest, 2 Drow Elite and 4 drow warriors. (which are forward scouts) So 8 npcs that hate sunlight.... oh and that nasty viscid globs toy, which does noting if it's around sunlight...
It's doable.
Note, while I say all this, our AL party is still stuck IN THE CAGE after game 1.
What did I say that was erroneous?
You erroneously took my use of the word preliminary to mean i only read chapter 1. As far as i can tell, 'preliminally' is not a real word. But i can surmise what you thought you were saying. I forgive you.
You can disagree with my opinions, but i didn't make any claims that are factually incorrect.
i also don't make any mention of WotC, or how they produce modules(which they don't even do). Maybe you are referring to some of the other recent threads?
I do think there are systematic issues, but it must be working for em cuz new players keep buying the books then dropping out like flies. Maybe they consider that a perfect business model?
There appears to be nobody checking the power of the rewards. Even a regular +2 weapon in the first tier is extremely powerful. This one is even stronger.
I would argue that its more over the curve than Hazirawn. At the level you get it your attack bonus is only around +4 or +5 and you cant count on having buffs like bless every fight. +40% to 50% to your attack bonus and basically doubling your damage. Thats huge. Its strong enough to rebuild your character around dex and never look back.
hazirawn you get at level 7-8. When your attack bonus is around 7-8 and you can reliably have things like bless/haste/precision attack. The +2 to hit is a much smaller upgrade by then.
Granville7482 wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
What Coredump says is correct and I quote:
Set Encounters (DDEN3 p35)You can use the following four encounters during the party’s travels in the Underdark, inserting them as desired. They provide more detailed challenges for the characters, as well as giving them chances to encounter some potential allies. If you plan on playing the full version of Out of the Abyss, these encounters can be saved for later chapters of that adventure, especially if the characters need an XP boost as they work through those chapters.
SteveMND wrote:
By your logic nothing in the book can possibly be broken....its just the DMs fault if he chooses to allow something that is written IN the book?
Infinite similacrums? Sorry its the DMs fault! Class abilities that have no function because of changes between playtest and live? DM did it..
player built a character around summoning stuff that then became unplayable...and also they arent allowed to fix their character they arent happy with anymore...DM clearly is at fault?
Hazirawn wasnt the DMs fault, and neither was orcsplitter or the fact that they changed the reward for orcsplitter. Either someone read it and approved it, or they didn't. If that person gets a payckeck, they shouldnt.
Byakugan01 wrote:
All rules are optional. So if, if, if isn't a very good defense.
Hazirawn is just as optional as every other reward in the books. It is Supposed to be in a certain place, but the DM could move it elsewhere....say to a room the party didnt explore...or he could add in so many backup monsters that the party TPKs AND rezmir dies...so everyone gets rezzed back in town but must forfiet their rewards...he could put the sword in the chest with the mask and it poofs when rezmir dies. see how that works. DMs fault if someone gets it? I think all of those options are really bad and railroady. If the players go 'hey we really want to start doing those set piece dungeons next week!' Which is what -will- happen because people read spoilers. Just like they ask to do specific chapters in S1 and S2 and specific expeditions to get specific rewards. You can either tell them too bad so sad, or you can acquiesce and then they got an item that throws off encounter balance for literally the whole campaign. A large proportion of the enemies in the book have sunlight sensitivity...
heck when you finish go back to s1 and find the vampire, then go find The Dark Lady in S2. Fights might be slightly easier with sunlight on a stick.
The wand of viscid globs is easily worse...no save restrained is retardedly OP. Sorry I know ur a demon lord and all but Im afraid we have to turn u into a chump w 1 attack roll. Why bother nerfing all the save or die spells if u turn around and put something like this in the game? I know...DM's fault, right?
Spoilers.
Ehhh...If you take the Silken Paths sidequest, and you free the cocooned halfling, he pretty much leads you to the location of the other side quest where the sword is. He's a random encounter in the paths, and maybe wont survive long enough. But it's another lead that sets characters on initiative to go check out the location.
I dont think Lightbringer, Harziwan , the elemental weapons or Orcsplitter ruin adventures for me if other players have them, though outside of the printed Adventure books I dont find too many AL aventures to be very difficult. The one in season 2 with the water- hydra was pretty nasty though ;)
The Viscid Globs, that ruins adventures through. Either it was not playtested or some of it's rules were cut out in editing by mistake.
As for avaliable at levels 1-7. No not really. The way the PDF is printed up it's to take characters from level 1-4. The players can play the regular AL weekly adventures, or even go back to season 1 or 2 ones, play in an epic at a convention, or mix and match. They could even, in theroy go start a game of POTA, decidng to never revist the underdark again. The material in the pdf is intended to be used, though yes those side quests are optional. Chapter 2 is kind of a void without them though. Now, that does not mean a DM has to use them? No. But the adventure is challenge enough and pretty light on rewards considering the time invested in playing it.
Now one counter argument is that that chapter is used in the actual book for underdark travel. But after a few levels you wont use that much either. Every time you hit a new location you will be at it for about 2-4 sessions,(Mushroom headquarters.) and you'll out level those side quests very quickly. At level 5 you could solo most of them with a cleric with no magic items at all. And at around level 5, you're supposed to be out of the underdark and getting recalled to lead a bigger expidition back into it.
The other thing is how you find the item. Once you are at the location, the item practically begs you to find it. So despite it's hiding place, it is not one that will be commonly overlooked.
And the stick of uber globs comes looking for you. No effor required Have your wererats buddies ready, they can kill the entire drow task force bar the priest and priestess, due to being immune to non-magical weapons. (though not poison, or uber globs.)
Byakugan01 wrote:
Granville7482 wrote:
Kalani wrote:
If the DM decided to run the Silken Paths side quest, and if you find the halfling, you have incentive to look for the tomb. It's that simple. You can say if, if and if, but it can happen, which was my initial point. He can be dead or alive after you've spoken with him, and you may or may not find the tomb. But if the halfling is found now the party knows about the tomb. It could be the next cave from the Paths or miles and miles away. Chapter 2 eludes and suggests you to head to the lake and then the kuo-toa city. So why not on the way? Sure all of it is down to the DM but then again so is much of dungeons and dragons as a whole, bringing me to the next point.
The wererts? It pretty much says to the DM: Use them as a wild card. They have under a month left before they shift and it's hard to tell what phase of the moon it is when you're miles undrground. It also says they will strike out on thier own once they feel safe. That kind of gives the DM room to play with. When they feel safe? Well the last time it was just the two of them, they were picking mushrooms and got caugth by drow slavers, who are looking for them again. If a crafty PC tries to convicne them to stay on board with the rest of the escapees, insinuating that they may be safer in numbers, do you think they will just split? One DM will tell you yes, another will tell you no. A third may ask for a roll to try and get them to stay. -It's not set in stone. But hey, do you think the wererats are so secrative and reclusive, that they are simply weirdo deep gnomes, and the second you get out of your jail cell, they run off into the underdark never to be seen again? If so, why write them as wererats at all? What was the point?
If I was DMing the adventure, I would want it to be a bit grimdark and I find the group has too many NPCs, so for example in my case, I would likely pick them off slowly one by one with every other random encounter. Other DMs may try and pull punches to keep them alive, as many have story hooks later in the printed adventure. But eh, it's not going to be the same with each DM. These are not heavily scripted NPCs with pre-determined outcomes and fates, nor is chapter 2.
Oh and I dont blame the adventure, it's a huge sandbox. For eample, you have no idea what terrain you will be fighting the drow party on. If for some crazy reason, you are fighting them in say, a 20 foot wide corridor, it's going to go different than if you had time to set up an ambush at say a rope bridge, or the silken paths. Again it's all down to the DM. The priestess has a 30 chance to summon a demon that can kill off the entire party if it's heavily engaged. Better to retreat, one of those things killed Wulfgar :p
And as for the darklake only being included so players can transition to the printed adventure. Well, why have it in the PDF then? After the party has discovered Demogorgon is out and about and they've compleated the PDF adventure, they have the option of saying adios to the underdark and it's demon problem or come back and deal with it continuing the adventure. It's a pretty good cut off point and it's in the PDF to be a cut off point. The next plot hook of the book is to come back t the underdark and deal with it's demon problem.
And again as for getting your sword at level 2, you're right that's compleatly on the DM. And entirely possible within the AL.
I mean we have one regional coordinator who had a one shot run for them with just the tomb and tomb only to loot a legendary sunblade for thier samurai character. So eh?? Ehhhh???? With this precedent set things can happen. The party was level 4. Sunblade = Level 4. Two hours, thirty minutes.
Kalani wrote:
Granville7482 wrote:
My character failed their religion check. He knew nothing about their resistances and fought with his naginata (as its his primary weapon due to having sentinel/PM).
I don't recall wraiths or spectres being harmed by silver. AFAIK only the resistance of lycanthropes and Devils are bypassed by silver. Most other creatures require magic weapons with a few (golems mainly) requiring adamantium (which doesn't exist yet except for one item in LMoP).
We also found out the hard way that the spectre was resistant to lightning when the party EK used shocking grasp instead of his rapier.
My characters daishou is silver as more of a ceremonial reason - that and it helps against hengeyokai (shape shifters - aka lycans)
Gotcha. Either way with a religion check of 9 - I didn't even know it was a wraith, just a ghost of some kind. As such, my character would have never known to use their sidearm (katana). The wraith dropped the L4 fighter in one hit (it crit) so I kept a distance and used my naginata while the Druid (bear) kept it busy in melee.
The spectres however were probably resistant to even that however.
Haven't seen an incorporeal undead since Castle Naytir (episode 6 HotDQ) and I have long since forgotten what the monsters were capable of. (Even as a DM I don't memorize the monster stats unless I need to run them).
One curious thing about Dawnbringer that I haven't seen mentioned:
As Kalani points out, it's best if the sword is used sparingly, only when needed, but the sword itself wants to be used constantly. As such, even though the sword is good-aligned, it would certainly Contest with its current owner if the owner consistently refused to light its blade, forcing it to deal with its fear of the dark.
Another interesting question:
Dawnbringer is sentient, and can see and hear independently of its wielder. Can it fall prey to the madness pervading the Underdark? I see nothing to suggest it would be immune, though some things that might cause a PC to have to make a Madness saving throw (taking psychic damage, for example) likely couldn't happen to Dawnbringer.
--
Pauper
That would be a DMs call, but since Weapons don't make saving throws independent of their owner - I think the intent is for them to be immune. Their personality is a function of the magic that created them. Their personality is fixed, and unmutable. They can't be convinced to change to a different alignment for example and in fact - are incapable of changing their alignment even if they wanted to, so why would they suffer from madness (that they weren't already suffering from)?
Kalani wrote:
Either way - there are no rules for having items make madness saves. DMs should only take actions that enhance the enjoyment of the game. Unless it is part of the adventure itself, a DM who adlibs by having their PC weapons slowly goes insane runs the risk of alienating their players, and coming off as being antagonistic - esp. if said players learn that no other DM has their items make madness saves.
Less is More. Only make a ruling if its necessary. In this case, having items make madness saves is not a necessary ruling. In fact, questioning whether the items make madness saves at all is unnecessary for the enjoyment of the game.
Kalani wrote:
True, although I tend to be very conservative when it comes to DMs introducing rules that "they" think is fun. Who says that just because the DM thinks it will be fun, other players will agree? In AL, the Dms responsibility is to ensure that the game is fun for everyone (not just themselves). The Encounters and Expeditions programs are both drop-in programs, which means that DMs must be mindful that their players may change from week to week.
The second issue is whether this consitutes a house rule. It is not something covered by the rules, but that doesn't mean that it becomes a DM ruling issue. DM rulings in AL should be made on a case-by-case basis out of necessity. The madness rules completely ignore magic items, and as such - I see no way this would ever come up naturally in the game as an issue requiring a ruling, nor do I see a ruling on this issue as necessary. The game runs fine as is without creating a ruling for sentient magic items.
It therefore becomes a case of making a ruling for a rulings sake, or to answer a philosophical question the rules fail to address. In AL, DMs are discouraged from making rulings of this nature, as it can easily slip into the area of house rules.
The published rules are silent on the issue of magic items being affected by madness
This means one of four things:
- The developers didn't think it was an important thing to cover and would be a waste of ink.
- If the developers wanted items to be affected, they would have stated so in the rules. Their silence, means that the rule was intended for Creatures only (sentient items are not creatures, but they are NPCs).
- The developers wanted to leave it up to the DM.
- The developers never considered how this rule might interact with non-creature NPCs (aka sentient items).
We simply don't know which is the case.
Kalani wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
If people are going to say that sentient weapons can develop phobias and risk going mad, then I would rule that they can also benefit from therapy!
Sword Whisperer!
Kalani wrote: