Tiers in the Campaign Books - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shivafang May 06, 2015 10:59:09	The ALPG talks about tiers and says that the 'module will define what tier is legal' while this is completely clear for Expeditions, it is less clear when running out of a book. Princes of the Apocalypse goes from 1st to 15th level, Rise of Tiamat goes from 8-15 (IIRC). There was a player in my Rise game that hit level 11 and he insisted that since the book goes from 8-15, the standard tier system didn't matter and thus he wasn't out of tier (everyone else was 6-9, the 11th level player had played Expeditions and thus earned more XP and also tiered up when he hit 10th level) Is this correct by AL rules, or does everyone still have to be within the same tier? I'm currently running Princes of the Apocalypse and all my characters are currently level 2-3 but there are some differences in leveling speed as some of my players are also playing Expeditions and I am concerned about them 'tiering out'. Also, I'm worried about finding replacement characters after the party is Tier 2 and if I lose a few players to 'Real Life Issues'. If Tiers do not matter in the books,what's to stop an 11th level player from insisting he can join my party of level 2s and 3s? (Other than DM dictate, which is to be avoided in an Organized Play environment) If Tiers DO matter, what sets the tier? The 'reccomended' level as mentioned in the book for that area or the adventuring party? (The way PotA is structured it's possible to do higher level areas earlier and lower level areas later because it is pretty much a sandbox campaign.) Thanks for your insight.
#2 reddaemon May 06, 2015 22:30:08	I would like to know this as well. Since organized play is different from home games, we need to have guidance on what level ranges are allowed to play each episode. There should also be minimum experience you can earn for each episode like in expeditions to fix the issue of not earning enough XP due to the module assuming you are using milestones instead of awarding XP. To me, it seems there should be a document available with guidance on running each module and what additional rules, if any, need to be in place to adapt it to Adventurer's League.
#3 Tyranthraxus May 06, 2015 22:47:03	Im going to over the weekend attempt to nut this out. The issue is with Encounters vs Expeditions is the volunteers admins have way more control over the expeditions than Encounters. That is Expeditions is their primary focus, so you are less likely to get black and white answers when it comes to establishing what level and where in the princes book.
#4 Coredump00 May 07, 2015 6:13:47	Historically, there are a few slightly different answers to this, and no 'official' answer that I have seen. One answer that I have seen posted here, is that the adventures intention is that each episode equates to a level raise (more or less) and thus if you are expected to be 6th level for an episode, that episode is considered Tier 2. I believe it is more flexible than that. Since the AL admins have never defined which episode is which tier, the expectation is more flexibility will allow DMs to accomodate their players better. IOW, in RoT if someone happens to level to 11 an episode early, you don't have to kick them out. Or if someone levels a bit late, you don't have to leave them behind. ("Catching up" can help with this, but not always) However..... I also believe that DMs should still keep the spirit of the AL Tier restictions in mind when they are being 'flexible'. It is clear that AL wants PCs to be of the same relative power level, hence using the tier restrictions. It may make sense to allow a lvl 3 to play with lvl 5's in an early episode, but does not make sense to let a lvl 2 play with lvl 8's in a later episode. So while the tier system may not be 'strictiy enforced' in the large adventures, its not that they "don't matter". As for your lvl 11 player, he has another issue. The rule is called "Catching up" for a reason. It is allowed when your character wants to "catch up" with the other PCs that are going into a higher tier adventure. 1) He was the highest level PC, there was no one to 'catch up' to. 2) Based on his statement, if there is no 'higher tier' then there is no reason to 'catch up' (I guess, in some future world.... he could have gone to a Con, used "catch up" to play in a Tier 3 expedition, and then come back to play PotA or RoT.... but that is not the case here.) The only reason he used the "catching up" mechanic was to skip a level because he wanted to be a higher level.... that is not allowed. And I would gladly use that as my rationale for keeping him out of the game with that PC.
#5 QwertyAzerty May 08, 2015 6:51:14	TIer 1= level 1 to 4 Tier 2= level 5 to 10 Tier 3= level 11 to 15 Tier4= level 16 to 20 I don't have the PotA but is there an expected level to each chapter? like in HotDQ and RoT you knew what level was expected for each chapter based on the milestone system telling you you should be level 15 fore Tiamat, you should be level 8 when starting the first council, etc... if the chapter is intended for character level 9 then it's a tier 2 adventure, if the adventure is expected for level 11 then it's a tier 3 adventures.
#6 Kalani May 08, 2015 7:50:30	The spoiler contains the break points for content in Princes of the Apocalypse. Princes of the Apocalypse Tier 1: Chapter 6 pre-adventure, Feathergale Spire and Riverguard Keep (Chapter 3). Tier 2: Sacred Stone Monestary, and Scarlet Hall (Chapter 3), All of Chapter 4; Elemental Fane (Chapter 5). Tier 3: All of Chapter 5 with the exception of the Elemental Fane This information is based on the Character Advancement sidebars in each respective chapter, which lists the level of each dungeon within said chapter.
#7 Tyranthraxus May 10, 2015 18:46:41	Im more or less half way through my document. Kalana has more or less answered the question. I actually think far so more than Hoard of DQ, that its actually surprisingly easy for a party to go off on a tangent into a far deadlier area than they are ready for, which may lead to a lot more cajoling and railroading.
#8 RulesJD May 10, 2015 19:21:36	Yeah, Tier's aren't going to work at direct level. For example, several Tier 1 groups that I've seen start out fighting in the Sacred Monastery. They then advance to level 4, and downtime to 5. Does that mean they can't return to Feathergale Spire? Of course not. Chapter 6 (Red Larch) is clearly Tier 1. Anything after that is DM discretion simply because parties can wander. Absolutely should not cut off content just because the party leveled to 6 before they decided to tackle the Riverguard Keep.
#9 Kalani May 10, 2015 20:23:56	The thing that should be absolutely enforced is the fact that Tier 1 and Tier 2 characters cannot game at the same table. I allow a 1/2 level gap between characters. IOWs, if you have L4 characters which are 1/2 way to L5, I will allow them to adventure with someone (from the same party) who just reached L5. This only applies to the book adventures (HotDQ, RoT, PotA). I would not however, allow said character to play in Tier 2 Expeditions.
#10 RulesJD May 10, 2015 22:50:31	Kalani wrote:
#11 Enevhar_Aldarion May 11, 2015 1:33:41	RulesJD wrote:
#12 Primarchx May 11, 2015 8:28:40	I went to a different store for Encounters last week and the only table available was running the end of HotDQ. Luckily I had a 6th level AL character with me! That game wouldn't be labeled Encounters by Hoyle, but it would qualify as Casual Play. As far as I know, Casual Play, including home play, doesn't have hard level limits in place for the WOTC modules.
#13 Kalani May 11, 2015 8:38:45	AFAIK, all AL-legal adventures run on Wednesdays are considered "Encounters" (even Expeditions, LMoP, or adventures which have "leveled out" of the DDEN modules).
#14 Enevhar_Aldarion May 11, 2015 11:16:59	Kalani wrote:
#15 Kalani May 11, 2015 11:42:41	Enevhar_Aldarion wrote:
#16 RulesJD May 11, 2015 12:13:58	Kalani wrote:
#17 Kalani May 11, 2015 12:19:31	RulesJD wrote:
#18 RulesJD May 11, 2015 14:29:14	Kalani wrote:
#19 Avross May 15, 2015 10:00:47	RulesJD wrote:
#20 Kalani May 15, 2015 10:24:52	As per the ALPG, this I think both responses are a bit hard headed. Kalani, your response is probably "by-the-book-legal", but doesn't address what a LGS store which can only field one table should do if someone still only has a level 3 character when the party is ready to move on to the "level 5 section". Sure, when they hit level 4, they can spend DT, but are the options really only "don't let the person play" or "everyone else has to roll new characters and do another Tier 1 until he's level 4"? [/quote]This is an unfortunate but semi-frequent scenario. The current advice is to suggest the DM run a one-shot Expedition to help increase the L3 characters level to 4th, at which point they can use the Downtime Catchup Rules to continue the adventure with their fellow PCs. Should the DM choose not to do this however, the rules are very clear..... The L3 character cannot participate in the adventure. If the player does not have another character, they will not be able to participate either. This is unfortunate, but it does occur and is no different than if a player showed up to a Tier 2 Expedition and the only characters they had were L1-3. The ALPG makes no exceptions for adventuring outside your tier and does not allow players to make/advance characters to the next tier (except at specific levels). I have been forced to turn players away from my tables on a handful of occasions (usually when running a Tier 2 Expedition on our scheduled Expeditions Night). It doesn't happen frequently, but it does happen.
#21 shivafang May 27, 2015 8:02:22	RulesJD wrote:
#22 reddaemon May 27, 2015 8:41:25	Where is this rule that characters of different tiers can't play at the same table? The only thing I can find is a rule in the ALPG that says you can't play an adventure outside of your tier. Lost Mine and HOTDQ don't seem to specify what tier each chapter is, so I don't see how that rule can apply. If this rule is in the book somewhere, it needs to be axed. Any rule that results in turning players away (especially because of an asinine technicality) is counterintuitive to growing AL. The only rule you need is that you can't play outside an adventure's allowed level range.
#23 Ravix May 27, 2015 9:19:07	To clarify, there are no Tiers in Encounters or the hardcover modules. This has been confirmed by admins many times. However, I would HIGHLY SUGGEST following a tiered structure with your tables. As it can get to be rather unfun when you're playing with characters who are demigods.
#24 reddaemon May 27, 2015 9:34:45	Ravix wrote:
#25 Kalani May 27, 2015 10:16:56	reddaemon wrote:
(Reply to #25) shivafang	Since I am running Princes of the Apocalypse (which is what triggered the question I posted in the OP) I think Kallani's answer is the best one. Given that she's also my LC for Wednesday encounters in-store it's kind of a given (She answered my question in person when I originally started this thread, which is why I haven't been back to read the responces until now.) I also run online, and my LC for online play has a different interpretation - as long as the part is within 4 levels of each other (for example, 3-6) it's fine. It's a 'softer' answer that still meets tier expectations even if it isn't to the letter of the rules. Kallani's answer is the most consistent answer based on the wording in the ALPG and the clear intention of party makeup in AL - not to mention that tiers are a D&D thing and not just an AL thing (although D&D without AL doesn't require party members to be in the same tier.)
#27 Kalani May 27, 2015 10:41:56	*Kalani. My name only has one "L" in it (although I have noticed you consistently write it with 2 lol).
#28 reddaemon May 27, 2015 12:09:48	Kalani wrote:
#29 Ainulindalion May 27, 2015 12:27:20	PotA gives a recommended design level for each section at the beginning of the chapter that includes each section.
#30 Kalani May 27, 2015 12:41:25	Ainulindalion wrote:
#31 Coredump00 May 27, 2015 16:02:13	Caveat: I have not read the PotA adventure, so part of the following is based upon what I have been told. With that said... The AP adventures have some recommendations or 'expectations' about what level characters should be when playing a particular episode. That is not the same as being labeled a "tier X adventure". There is no ALPG restriction about Tier1 and Tier2 PCs being allowed or not allowed to adventure together, it simply does not exist. Anyone declaring that it does, is playing with a House Rule. The only similar restriction relies on an adventure being labeld a Tier X adventure....which none of the AP adventures have been, and no AL source (that I know of) has added that information. (possible exception of the intro-pdfs for Encounters...) That said, I think it is apparent that the SPIRIT of the AL rules (and even the DnD rules and the AP recommendations and expectations) would be broken if you allow lvl2 and lvl8 PCs to be adventuring together. So while I find no AL rule saying you can't do it.... I think a DM should definitely not allow it. I assert that no rule exists in order to give the DM some leeway in what, who, when, and how they determine when a level difference is okay, and when it is not. I think it would be much less detrimental to play to have a lvl 4 playing with some level 5's, compared to having a lvl10 playing with some level 5's. (remember, we are discussing the APs, not the expeditions) As a DM, I would much rather let that lvl3 play, rather than send him home. I would not, however, want to allow it on a long term basis. Expeditions are short and sweet, and clearly a certain tier. The APs are not clearly delineated, and will have people playing the same adventure for a long time. I believe that is why this flexibility exists, but like all DME, it needs to be used judiciously and with purpose, not carelessly. (which are all relative terms.....but thats why we have DMs.) While I disagree on where Kalani (for example) draws the line.... I do believe that a line needs to be drawn. Shivafang: Whether you follow the recommendations of your store organizer or not, is not an AL issue, it is a store issue. I imagine that the store manager will want you to follow the organizers policies, but that is between you, the manager, and the store organizer. You are under no obligation to follow any LCs rule interpretations. As I have been repeatedly told recently... the ALPG clearly states that the DM is the final arbiter of any rulings made at the table. I would expect you to give their recommendations the appropriate consideration....and following them isn't necessarily a bad idea.... but the decision is up to you.
#32 Coredump00 May 27, 2015 16:08:40	Okay, I realize I am fighting an uphill battle... and people are going to do this anyway.... but..... Spending downtime days to go from 4 to 5 is not written as some freebie 'i get to skip a level' kind of thing. It clearly states that it is to be used for 'catching up' when the "the rest of your party levels up a bit before you" so you can play instead of 'leaving you at home' So just because you hit 4th, doesn't mean you can just jump to 5th, especially not when playing in one of the APs. If you want to play in a tier 2 expedition.... then you need to 'catch up' to the rest of the players. But it isn't just some automatic thing you get to do whenever you hit lvl 4. I realize it will happen, and I don't even really care that much when it comes down to it.... it just bugs me. (and makes me a little sad.....)
#33 CoreyartustheSecond May 27, 2015 23:29:57	It feels like there are two different debates happening here--how are the APLs defined (why/why not), and how are the APLs actually used (why/why not). Articulation of the APLs probably wasn't spelled out as the AL expects folks to connect the dots... In the adventure itself, it outlines what Levels are appropriate for each part of the adventure, and since the ALPG lays out what levels correspond to what APL tiers, it probably wasn't felt there was a need... (AL Encounters supplement materials in blue): Spoilers APL 1 1st—Into the Wilderness Bears and Bows Haunted Tomb Bloody Treasure The Last Laugh Lance Rock 1st—Necromancer’s Cave 2nd—Tomb of Moving Stones 3rd—Feathergale Spire Knight's Quest Sighing Valley —New Management Side Trek —Cult Reprisal (Skyriders or Reaver Ambush) 4th—Rivergard Keep —Iceshield Orcs Side Trek —Cult Reprisal (Tremors or Fiery Fangs) APL 2 5th—Sacred Stone Monastery —The Long Road Side Trek 6th—Scarlet Moon Hall —Curse of the Fire Witch Side Trek 6th—Temple of Howling Hatred 7th—Temple of the Crushing Wave 8th—Temple of Black Earth —Vale of Dancing Waters Side Trek 9th—Temple of Eternal Flame —Dark Dealings in Yartar Side Trek APL 3 10th—The Fane of the Eye —Rundreth Manor Side Trek 11th—The Howling Caves —Halls of the Hunting Axe Side Trek 12th-- The Plunging Torrents 12th—The Black Geode 13th—The Weeping Colossus (All of these segments are fleshed out with Random Encounters to meet XP requirements)
#34 Kalani May 27, 2015 22:20:03	The admins would prefer we didn't post lists of spoilers such as the above. If at all possible, could you edit your post to add [spoiler] tags, or remove the spoilered information?
(Reply to #34) CoreyartustheSecond	Kalani wrote:
#36 BRJN May 30, 2015 15:46:35	Another option: if one player is slightly ahead of the rest of his group for XP, he could just 'neglect' to take his L5 class abilities until the rest of the group has also reached the L5 benchmark. Of course adjudicating this would be dependent on how far ahead the player is, if the party is crippled without him, and his attitude towards blending in with the rest of the group. (Inspiration: at one LFR module I offered to level-down my Warlock8 so I could join an H1 table; the alternative was to not play, since there were no other H3 PCs available for that module.)
#37 Kalani May 30, 2015 15:53:08	BRJN wrote:
(Reply to #37) TheBreen	Kalani wrote:
#39 Kalani May 31, 2015 8:31:32	From the AL FAQ When do characters advance in level? The Tyranny of Dragons season D&D Adventurers League Player's Guide seems to contradict itself by saying at the end of a long rest and at the end of a session. Which is correct? Characters with sufficient experience must advance at the next opportunity: the end of an episode of a multi-part adventure such as D&D Encounters or a published adventure, after a D&D Expedition, or after a long rest. The language indicating that a character can advance after a session is incorrect and will be corrected in future editions of the Player's Guide.
#40 shivafang May 31, 2015 7:09:49	Coredump00 wrote:
#41 RulesJD May 31, 2015 14:51:55	shivafang wrote:
#42 ZHDarkstar May 31, 2015 16:48:43	A lack of clearly identified Tiers in the campaign books has been one of my chief pet peeves since I started organizing AL at my FLGS. I fully understand that Seasons 1 & 2 were outsourced to focus on putting the core books out in time. That's why I'm waiting until a month after the Season 3 Book 1 retail release before deciding whether or not to start looking for my replacement to DM my book table. I'm not going to abandon the program altogether, as I'll still run the Expeditions tables, with their clearly defined rulings. However, I'm just tired of having to search tirelessly for information about what tiers does Chapter X belong to or where do I give out DT/Renown for the rest of the adventure after finishing the DDEN pdf. I know that the staff have created documents that answer some of those questions, but they come with their own set of problems: A. They're not considered AL Official, weakening their utility. B. They're not easily available to the public, scattered throughout Google Docs without a centralized portal. I'm tired of the volunteer status excuse being used as justification for the AL shortcomings. The quality of effort put into the program by staff has a direct impact on the quality of the program's lifespan. If the AL staff doesn't have the manpower to provide the content DMs could really use, then the AL should create new non-coordinator positions to create that content. It wouldn't cost Cobra Command anything, as the AL staff already works for free. They would pretty much be getting something for nothing. This is as much our AL as WotC's AL. Let those who want to help have a chance to help. Threads like this would stop recurring every few months if we had a clear-and-concise post-Encounters guide that came out within 4-6 weeks after each retail release. I know that the AL staff have a corporate edict to support every retail release. That doesn't mean that it has to be done begrudgingly and with minimal effort.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

shivafang

May 06, 2015 10:59:09

The ALPG talks about tiers and says that the 'module will define what tier is legal' while this is completely clear for Expeditions, it is less clear when running out of a book.

Princes of the Apocalypse goes from 1st to 15th level, Rise of Tiamat goes from 8-15 (IIRC). There was a player in my Rise game that hit level 11 and he insisted that since the book goes from 8-15, the standard tier system didn't matter and thus he wasn't out of tier (everyone else was 6-9, the 11th level player had played Expeditions and thus earned more XP and also tiered up when he hit 10th level)

Is this correct by AL rules, or does everyone still have to be within the same tier? I'm currently running Princes of the Apocalypse and all my characters are currently level 2-3 but there are some differences in leveling speed as some of my players are also playing Expeditions and I am concerned about them 'tiering out'. Also, I'm worried about finding replacement characters after the party is Tier 2 and if I lose a few players to 'Real Life Issues'.

If Tiers do not matter in the books,what's to stop an 11th level player from insisting he can join my party of level 2s and 3s? (Other than DM dictate, which is to be avoided in an Organized Play environment)

If Tiers DO matter, what sets the tier? The 'reccomended' level as mentioned in the book for that area or the adventuring party? (The way PotA is structured it's possible to do higher level areas earlier and lower level areas later because it is pretty much a sandbox campaign.)

Thanks for your insight.

reddaemon

May 06, 2015 22:30:08

I would like to know this as well. Since organized play is different from home games, we need to have guidance on what level ranges are allowed to play each episode. There should also be minimum experience you can earn for each episode like in expeditions to fix the issue of not earning enough XP due to the module assuming you are using milestones instead of awarding XP. To me, it seems there should be a document available with guidance on running each module and what additional rules, if any, need to be in place to adapt it to Adventurer's League.

Tyranthraxus

May 06, 2015 22:47:03

Im going to over the weekend attempt to nut this out.

The issue is with Encounters vs Expeditions is the volunteers admins have way more control over the expeditions than Encounters. That is Expeditions is their primary focus, so you are less likely to get black and white answers when it comes to establishing what level and where in the princes book.

Coredump00

May 07, 2015 6:13:47

Historically, there are a few slightly different answers to this, and no 'official' answer that I have seen.

One answer that I have seen posted here, is that the adventures intention is that each episode equates to a level raise (more or less) and thus if you are expected to be 6th level for an episode, that episode is considered Tier 2.

I believe it is more flexible than that. Since the AL admins have never defined which episode is which tier, the expectation is more flexibility will allow DMs to accomodate their players better. IOW, in RoT if someone happens to level to 11 an episode early, you don't have to kick them out. Or if someone levels a bit late, you don't have to leave them behind. ("Catching up" can help with this, but not always)

*However*..... I also believe that DMs should still keep the spirit of the AL Tier restictions in mind when they are being 'flexible'. It is clear that AL wants PCs to be of the same relative power level, hence using the tier restrictions. It may make sense to allow a lvl 3 to play with lvl 5's in an early episode, but does not make sense to let a lvl 2 play with lvl 8's in a later episode. So while the tier system may not be 'strictiy enforced' in the large adventures, its not that they "don't matter".

As for your lvl 11 player, he has another issue. The rule is called "Catching up" for a reason. It is allowed when your character wants to "catch up" with the other PCs that are going into a higher tier adventure.

1) He was the highest level PC, there was no one to 'catch up' to.

2) Based on his statement, if there is no 'higher tier' then there is no reason to 'catch up'

(I guess, in some future world.... he could have gone to a Con, used "catch up" to play in a Tier 3 expedition, and then come back to play PotA or RoT.... but that is not the case here.)

The only reason he used the "catching up" mechanic was to skip a level because he wanted to be a higher level.... that is *not* allowed. And I would gladly use that as my rationale for keeping him out of the game with that PC.

QwertyAzerty

May 08, 2015 6:51:14

TIer 1= level 1 to 4
Tier 2= level 5 to 10

Tier 3= level 11 to 15

Tier4= level 16 to 20

I don't have the PotA but is there an expected level to each chapter? like in HotDQ and RoT you knew what level was expected for each chapter based on the milestone system telling you you should be level 15 fore Tiamat, you should be level 8 when starting the first council, etc...

if the chapter is intended for character level 9 then it's a tier 2 adventure, if the adventure is expected for level 11 then it's a tier 3 adventures.

Kalani

May 08, 2015 7:50:30

The spoiler contains the break points for content in Princes of the Apocalypse.

Princes of the Apocalypse

Tier 1: Chapter 6 pre-adventure, Feathergale Spire and Riverguard Keep (Chapter 3).

Tier 2: Sacred Stone Monestary, and Scarlet Hall (Chapter 3), All of Chapter 4; Elemental Fane (Chapter 5).

Tier 3: All of Chapter 5 with the exception of the Elemental Fane

This information is based on the Character Advancement sidebars in each respective chapter, which lists the level of each dungeon within said chapter.

Tyranthraxus

May 10, 2015 18:46:41

Im more or less half way through my document. Kalana has more or less answered the question.

I actually think far so more than Hoard of DQ, that its actually surprisingly easy for a party to go off on a tangent into a far deadlier area than they are ready for, which may lead to a lot more cajoling and railroading.

RulesJD

May 10, 2015 19:21:36

Yeah, Tier's aren't going to work at direct level. For example, several Tier 1 groups that I've seen start out fighting in the Sacred Monastery. They then advance to level 4, and downtime to 5. Does that mean they can't return to Feathergale Spire? Of course not.

Chapter 6 (Red Larch) is clearly Tier 1. Anything after that is DM discretion simply because parties can wander. Absolutely should not cut off content just because the party leveled to 6 before they decided to tackle the Riverguard Keep.

Kalani

May 10, 2015 20:23:56

The thing that should be absolutely enforced is the fact that Tier 1 and Tier 2 characters cannot game at the same table. I allow a 1/2 level gap between characters. IOWs, if you have L4 characters which are 1/2 way to L5, I will allow them to adventure with someone (from the same party) who just reached L5. This only applies to the book adventures (HotDQ, RoT, PotA).

I would not however, allow said character to play in Tier 2 Expeditions.

#10

RulesJD

May 10, 2015 22:50:31

Kalani wrote:

#11

Enevhar_Aldarion

May 11, 2015 1:33:41

RulesJD wrote:

#12

Primarchx

May 11, 2015 8:28:40

I went to a different store for Encounters last week and the only table available was running the end of HotDQ. Luckily I had a 6th level AL character with me! That game wouldn't be labeled Encounters by Hoyle, but it would qualify as Casual Play. As far as I know, Casual Play, including home play, doesn't have hard level limits in place for the WOTC modules.

#13

Kalani

May 11, 2015 8:38:45

AFAIK, all AL-legal adventures run on Wednesdays are considered "Encounters" (even Expeditions, LMoP, or adventures which have "leveled out" of the DDEN modules).

#14

Enevhar_Aldarion

May 11, 2015 11:16:59

Kalani wrote:

#15

Kalani

May 11, 2015 11:42:41

Enevhar_Aldarion wrote:

#16

RulesJD

May 11, 2015 12:13:58

Kalani wrote:

#17

Kalani

May 11, 2015 12:19:31

RulesJD wrote:

#18

RulesJD

May 11, 2015 14:29:14

Kalani wrote:

#19

Avross

May 15, 2015 10:00:47

RulesJD wrote:

#20

Kalani

May 15, 2015 10:24:52

As per the ALPG, this

I think both responses are a bit hard headed.

Kalani, your response is probably "by-the-book-legal", but doesn't address what a LGS store which can only field one table should do if someone still only has a level 3 character when the party is ready to move on to the "level 5 section". Sure, when they hit level 4, they can spend DT, but are the options really only "don't let the person play" or "everyone else has to roll new characters and do another Tier 1 until he's level 4"? [/quote]This is an unfortunate but semi-frequent scenario. The current advice is to suggest the DM run a one-shot Expedition to help increase the L3 characters level to 4th, at which point they can use the Downtime Catchup Rules to continue the adventure with their fellow PCs. Should the DM choose not to do this however, the rules are very clear..... The L3 character cannot participate in the adventure. If the player does not have another character, they will not be able to participate either. This is unfortunate, but it does occur and is no different than if a player showed up to a Tier 2 Expedition and the only characters they had were L1-3.

The ALPG makes no exceptions for adventuring outside your tier and does not allow players to make/advance characters to the next tier (except at specific levels).

I have been forced to turn players away from my tables on a handful of occasions (usually when running a Tier 2 Expedition on our scheduled Expeditions Night). It doesn't happen frequently, but it does happen.

#21

shivafang

May 27, 2015 8:02:22

RulesJD wrote:

#22

reddaemon

May 27, 2015 8:41:25

Where is this rule that characters of different tiers can't play at the same table? The only thing I can find is a rule in the ALPG that says you can't play an adventure outside of your tier. Lost Mine and HOTDQ don't seem to specify what tier each chapter is, so I don't see how that rule can apply.

If this rule is in the book somewhere, it needs to be axed. Any rule that results in turning players away (especially because of an asinine technicality) is counterintuitive to growing AL. The only rule you need is that you can't play outside an adventure's allowed level range.

#23

Ravix

May 27, 2015 9:19:07

To clarify, there are no Tiers in Encounters or the hardcover modules. This has been confirmed by admins many times.

However, I would HIGHLY SUGGEST following a tiered structure with your tables. As it can get to be rather unfun when you're playing with characters who are demigods.

#24

reddaemon

May 27, 2015 9:34:45

Ravix wrote:

#25

Kalani

May 27, 2015 10:16:56

reddaemon wrote:

(Reply to #25)

shivafang

Since I am running Princes of the Apocalypse (which is what triggered the question I posted in the OP) I think Kallani's answer is the best one. Given that she's also my LC for Wednesday encounters in-store it's kind of a given (She answered my question in person when I originally started this thread, which is why I haven't been back to read the responces until now.)

I also run online, and my LC for online play has a different interpretation - as long as the part is within 4 levels of each other (for example, 3-6) it's fine. It's a 'softer' answer that still meets tier expectations even if it isn't to the letter of the rules.

Kallani's answer is the most consistent answer based on the wording in the ALPG and the clear intention of party makeup in AL - not to mention that tiers are a D&D thing and not just an AL thing (although D&D without AL doesn't require party members to be in the same tier.)

#27

Kalani

May 27, 2015 10:41:56

*Kalani. My name only has one "L" in it (although I have noticed you consistently write it with 2 lol).

#28

reddaemon

May 27, 2015 12:09:48

Kalani wrote:

#29

Ainulindalion

May 27, 2015 12:27:20

PotA gives a recommended design level for each section at the beginning of the chapter that includes each section.

#30

Kalani

May 27, 2015 12:41:25

Ainulindalion wrote:

#31

Coredump00

May 27, 2015 16:02:13

Caveat: I have not read the PotA adventure, so part of the following is based upon what I have been told. With that said...

The AP adventures have some recommendations or 'expectations' about what level characters should be when playing a particular episode. That is not the same as being labeled a "tier X adventure".

There is no ALPG restriction about Tier1 and Tier2 PCs being allowed or not allowed to adventure together, it simply does not exist. Anyone declaring that it does, is playing with a House Rule.

The only similar restriction relies on an adventure being labeld a Tier X adventure....which none of the AP adventures have been, and no AL source (that I know of) has added that information. (possible exception of the intro-pdfs for Encounters...)

That said, I think it is apparent that the *SPIRIT* of the AL rules (and even the DnD rules and the AP recommendations and expectations) would be broken if you allow lvl2 and lvl8 PCs to be adventuring together. So while I find no AL rule saying you can't do it.... I think a DM should definitely not allow it. I assert that no rule exists in order to give the DM some leeway in what, who, when, and how they determine when a level difference is okay, and when it is not. I think it would be much less detrimental to play to have a lvl 4 playing with some level 5's, compared to having a lvl10 playing with some level 5's. (remember, we are discussing the APs, not the expeditions) As a DM, I would much rather let that lvl3 play, rather than send him home. I would not, however, want to allow it on a long term basis.

Expeditions are short and sweet, and clearly a certain tier. The APs are not clearly delineated, and will have people playing the same adventure for a long time. I believe that is why this flexibility exists, but like all DME, it needs to be used judiciously and with purpose, not carelessly. (which are all relative terms.....but thats why we have DMs.) While I disagree on where Kalani (for example) draws the line.... I do believe that a line needs to be drawn.

Shivafang: Whether you follow the recommendations of your store organizer or not, is not an AL issue, it is a store issue. I imagine that the store manager will want you to follow the organizers policies, but that is between you, the manager, and the store organizer. You are under no obligation to follow any LCs rule interpretations. As I have been repeatedly told recently... the ALPG clearly states that the DM is the final arbiter of any rulings made at the table. I would expect you to give their recommendations the appropriate consideration....and following them isn't necessarily a bad idea.... but the decision is up to you.

#32

Coredump00

May 27, 2015 16:08:40

Okay, I realize I am fighting an uphill battle... and people are going to do this anyway.... but.....

Spending downtime days to go from 4 to 5 is not written as some freebie 'i get to skip a level' kind of thing. It clearly states that it is to be used for 'catching up' when the "the rest of your party levels up a bit before you" so you can play instead of 'leaving you at home'

So just because you hit 4th, doesn't mean you can just jump to 5th, especially not when playing in one of the APs. If you want to play in a tier 2 expedition.... then you need to 'catch up' to the rest of the players. But it isn't just some automatic thing you get to do whenever you hit lvl 4.

I realize it will happen, and I don't even really care that much when it comes down to it.... it just bugs me. (and makes me a little sad.....)

#33

CoreyartustheSecond

May 27, 2015 23:29:57

It feels like there are two different debates happening here--how are the APLs defined (why/why not), and how are the APLs actually used (why/why not).

Articulation of the APLs probably wasn't spelled out as the AL expects folks to connect the dots... In the adventure itself, it outlines what Levels are appropriate for each part of the adventure, and since the ALPG lays out what levels correspond to what APL tiers, it probably wasn't felt there was a need... (AL Encounters supplement materials in blue):

Spoilers

APL 1

1st—Into the Wilderness

Bears and Bows

Haunted Tomb

Bloody Treasure

The Last Laugh

Lance Rock

1st—Necromancer’s Cave

2nd—Tomb of Moving Stones

3rd—Feathergale Spire

Knight's Quest
Sighing Valley

—New Management Side Trek

—Cult Reprisal (Skyriders or Reaver Ambush)

4th—Rivergard Keep

—Iceshield Orcs Side Trek

—Cult Reprisal (Tremors or Fiery Fangs)

APL 2

5th—Sacred Stone Monastery

—The Long Road Side Trek

6th—Scarlet Moon Hall

—Curse of the Fire Witch Side Trek

6th—Temple of Howling Hatred

7th—Temple of the Crushing Wave

8th—Temple of Black Earth

—Vale of Dancing Waters Side Trek

9th—Temple of Eternal Flame

—Dark Dealings in Yartar Side Trek

APL 3

10th—The Fane of the Eye

—Rundreth Manor Side Trek

11th—The Howling Caves

—Halls of the Hunting Axe Side Trek

12th-- The Plunging Torrents

12th—The Black Geode

13th—The Weeping Colossus

(All of these segments are fleshed out with Random Encounters to meet XP requirements)

#34

Kalani

May 27, 2015 22:20:03

The admins would prefer we didn't post lists of spoilers such as the above. If at all possible, could you edit your post to add [spoiler] tags, or remove the spoilered information?

(Reply to #34)

CoreyartustheSecond

Kalani wrote:

#36

BRJN

May 30, 2015 15:46:35

Another option: if one player is slightly ahead of the rest of his group for XP, he could just 'neglect' to take his L5 class abilities until the rest of the group has also reached the L5 benchmark.

Of course adjudicating this would be dependent on how far ahead the player is, if the party is crippled without him, and his attitude towards blending in with the rest of the group.

(Inspiration: at one LFR module I offered to level-down my Warlock8 so I could join an H1 table; the alternative was to not play, since there were no other H3 PCs available for that module.)

#37

Kalani

May 30, 2015 15:53:08

BRJN wrote:

(Reply to #37)

TheBreen

Kalani wrote:

#39

Kalani

May 31, 2015 8:31:32

From the AL FAQ

When do characters advance in level? The Tyranny of Dragons season D&D Adventurers League Player's Guide seems to contradict itself by saying at the end of a long rest and at the end of a session. Which is correct?

Characters with sufficient experience must advance at the next opportunity: the end of an episode of a multi-part adventure such as D&D Encounters or a published adventure, after a D&D Expedition, or after a long rest. The language indicating that a character can advance after a session is incorrect and will be corrected in future editions of the Player's Guide.

#40

shivafang

May 31, 2015 7:09:49

Coredump00 wrote:

#41

RulesJD

May 31, 2015 14:51:55

shivafang wrote:

#42

ZHDarkstar

May 31, 2015 16:48:43

A lack of clearly identified Tiers in the campaign books has been one of my chief pet peeves since I started organizing AL at my FLGS. I fully understand that Seasons 1 & 2 were outsourced to focus on putting the core books out in time. That's why I'm waiting until a month after the Season 3 Book 1 retail release before deciding whether or not to start looking for my replacement to DM my book table. I'm not going to abandon the program altogether, as I'll still run the Expeditions tables, with their clearly defined rulings. However, I'm just tired of having to search tirelessly for information about what tiers does Chapter X belong to or where do I give out DT/Renown for the rest of the adventure after finishing the DDEN pdf. I know that the staff have created documents that answer some of those questions, but they come with their own set of problems:

A. They're not considered AL Official, weakening their utility.

B. They're not easily available to the public, scattered throughout Google Docs without a centralized portal.

I'm tired of the volunteer status excuse being used as justification for the AL shortcomings. The quality of effort put into the program by staff has a direct impact on the quality of the program's lifespan. If the AL staff doesn't have the manpower to provide the content DMs could really use, then the AL should create new non-coordinator positions to create that content. It wouldn't cost Cobra Command anything, as the AL staff already works for free. They would pretty much be getting something for nothing. This is as much our AL as WotC's AL. Let those who want to help have a chance to help.

Threads like this would stop recurring every few months if we had a clear-and-concise post-Encounters guide that came out within 4-6 weeks after each retail release. I know that the AL staff have a corporate edict to support every retail release. That doesn't mean that it has to be done begrudgingly and with minimal effort.