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| #1JeraxleNov 23, 2014 14:35:15 | Question time for the forum, how do you deal with 2 "problem" players, one player who has called himself "A Meta-gamer" and the other is disruptive and talks above others drowning them out?
The first player seems to take pleasure in pulling out rules/rulings from the PhB. The 2nd player not only talks above others but has let slip that he has read upcoming adventures and may have insider knowledge.
As someone who games and occassionally DM's how do you deal with these 2 problems without forcing them out of the group? |
| #2cowleymenNov 23, 2014 15:21:04 | Talk to them out side of the group. And rarely does one person talking to them outside the group help. Usually you need most of the group asking them to stop that type of behavior before anything changes. You meta-gamer just sounds like most meta-gamers. He would probably enjoy playing a tatics game along the lines of Warhammer a lot more then a RPG. As for the unruly, remind them a few times about being loud. Are they intentionally speaking over someone else?, or are they just a really loud person? As for insider information, sounds like they want attention and other players flocking to their words. |
| (Reply to #2)Jeraxle |
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| #4randlNov 23, 2014 15:38:21 | That is a tough situation. If possible, I would certainly start with discussing the issue with the store organizer (if not a home game). Making sure there are known standards of behavior really should be handled at that level. Talking to them, and/or more reasonable friends of the player, in calm manner outside the game is probably the next step (ie. Diplomacy). For AL play, you really don't want to force players out if at all possible. Unfortunatly, if things don't get better, you can't just dismiss asking them to not play at your table as a last resort.. If 2 players are making the game not fun for 5-6 others, then a good DM hs little choice and must do what he must do to keep the game fun for everyone.
Of course, your other options is to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer and get a DM that will make regular use of Tides of Chaos. I have found this particular combination tends to keep meta-games away like garlic does a vampire.
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| #5JeraxleNov 23, 2014 16:07:38 | Thanks for the suggestions |
| #6DungeonKrusherNov 23, 2014 17:01:02 | Keep in mind that sometimes people DO have to get forced out, if they don't mingle well with the group. I always suggest pulling them aside individually (calling them out in front of the group will trigger their defense mechanisms and be less productive) and explaining how their behavior distrupts the game. It's key that you're not attacking their beliefs or them in particular, but merely the game experience and how the actions are affecting it. Again, this may be slightly more productive than focusing on personal flaws such as "when YOU talk loudly" or "YOU are acting like you know too much".
A good rule of thumb that I read in an earlier edition was to game with friends. Find common goals, interests, and personalities, and the gaming sessions will be more cooperative and fun. At times you may need to politely say "It's not that we don't like you, but our gaming styles are different and we'd like to try different players" or something along that line.
Just like breaking up with a girl: be honest and get to the point. If you delay, hem, or haw... the band-aid starts sticking a little tighter, youknowwhatI'msaying? |
| #7JeraxleNov 23, 2014 17:46:18 | I've gamed with these 2 guys for 3 years and generally speaking they are fantastic gamers but both of them are known to make uber characters, they are both unhappy that they cannot make a broken character in 5th currently. They have both been taken aside and spoken too about their disrruptive behaviour and as I stated they change their ways after being talked too and after a while they revert back. The owner of the shop is reluctant to "boot" them from the group because they are both loyal customers and I can't say I blame him for not wanting to loose customers. I know that the other person who runs most of the expeditions has made a comment about not running anymore and both players got upset and complained that it wasn't fair that the DM might quit and got upset, he then dropped the bomb that the reason for possibly quitting was them and they have said they will change I guess time will tell. Will update when there is more info to share. |
| (Reply to #7)DungeonKrusher |
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| #9CFKNov 24, 2014 6:06:49 |
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| #10CFKNov 24, 2014 6:11:28 | PS: on out table we have a rule if it gets to rowdy, the TALKING CANDLE!
Only the person holding the candle can speak! Persons who ignore this rule, skip there turn or get disadvantage on there next turn. It's kinda childish to have to do, kindergarten all over again. But trust me, it works! Do that for a couple of combats and it'll be enough to threaten with the candle.
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| #11DyndrilliacNov 24, 2014 11:28:57 | For the meta-gamer, I would ban him from my table. Period. Full stop. Knowing what is going to happen and spoiling the surprise for other players is the easiest way to get on my bad side as a DM. I ask every player that sits at my table if they have played or ran the adventure before. If they say yes, then I politely ask them not to spoil the puzzles and story events for other players. If they say no, and I later begin to suspect that they lied to me, then they get reported to the organizer and next week they wil discover that my table is inexplicably full and there is no longer any room for them. Whether or not they find another table is up to the organizer.
As for the unruly player, I have had players in the past who were legitimately hard of hearing. In addition, with lots of tables going at once, most events I've attended average a low roar for most of the night volume wise. This player could have a legitimate disability. If that is the case, I will generally try to do everything in my power to both help other players communicate with this person (even if it means placing the player next to me and repeating what other players say) and also help the unruly player to speak more softly. On the other hand, this player could just be an inconsiderate person, in which case I operate via the three strikes rule. If I have to raise the issue with them more than three times, they are immediately ejected from my table. |
| #12thorbardinNov 25, 2014 1:57:39 | I've had a similar situation. Despite my best of intentions. Multiple out of session chats. Empty promises by the disruptors. Their toxicity eventually killed an 18 month campaign. It even ruined some long standing friendships.
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| #13LashanNov 25, 2014 9:44:51 | If it's AL, there are rules about talking over other people. Look at all those social contract stuff at the end of the PDF. You can threaten to kick people out if they don't change their tune and then actually do it if they continue.
I agree with the concept of kicking them out sooner rather than later. Some people can just ruin a good game. |
| (Reply to #13)Timborama |
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| (Reply to #14)DungeonKrusher |
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| (Reply to #15)SteveMND |
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| #17SorxoresNov 26, 2014 7:29:23 | For the player who already read the futur module, simply change the module slightly, not enought that it become a whole new adventure, but enought so the landmark he might have change. For example:
The secret door in room2 is now in room 3, -The magical weapon hidden within the secret compartment of the altar is now hidden under the matress of BBEG (but the player might visit the bedroom before facing the BBEG so they still have the chance to have the magical weapon to face teh BBEG. - The 3 ghouls that appear from the pool, now they will come from the wall in the hall you just pass to reach the pool, so you still have the same challenge to the player (a surprise attack from the ghouls) but the player who already read the adventure is now completly lost and look like a fool when he tell the other player that there is no danger in the hall, but they need to be weary of the pool since the ghoul will come from there, then the ghoul come from the "safe" hall.
Like you can see those change do not change anything to the adventure, and when the player who didn't read the module talk with other group and talk about the ghoul surprise attack by the pool, they will probably never realize what happen, but the player who already read the module, will be completly lost and will make a fool out of himself when he talk about those "vision of the futur" and after 2 or 3 "vision of an ambush" that do not happen like he planed, he understand that you are changing the module and will stop reading since you change them anyway.
From what I understand your meta gamer seem more like a rule lawyer then a meta gamer (quoting the PHB all the time) I am a rule lawyer myself, and I like to understand the rule of the game so I can create strategy and tactics for the group (and I usually play a tactical leader type character anyway) and I used to call all the fault that would happen at the table: hey the rogue lvl 1 cannot hide and attack she doesn't have cunnign action yet, The evil sorcerer cannot cast fireball and quicken scorching ray on the same turn. higher level chain lightning do not deal extra damage, it affect more target etc... The DM ask me to instead of calling the rule outloud, in front of everyone, slowing down the game, to simply text him (or send him a little note) he will read it and fixe it, if possible without letting the other player notice it (liek if he cast fireball and roll 2 extra d6 by mistake, the next fireball he will roll 2 less d6 to balance it out, without anyone noticing for example, and if he's not changing anything it's because he use rule 0, the DM can create houserule or there something else that transpire (like the sorcerer casting fireball AND scorchign ray in the same round, is actually 2 wizards behind an illusion. This way I can still help him out since sometime it is a mistake on his part, but without slowing down the game and without annoying everyone else. |
| #18JeraxleNov 26, 2014 18:43:26 | Oh the whole group I play with are rules lawyers(something we try to limit and only do so if an obvious mistake has occured), it is more like he is trying to exploit rules to make the character of all characters. One thing the shop owner and I have discussed at much length is actually approving character before if and or when a character dies and a player brings in a new character the DM has final say, I don't know if anyone here has had to do the DM approval on a character and if so how did it go if it was rejected? |
| #19Cade_ThePaladinNov 26, 2014 22:12:52 | Unfortunately, I've had to deal with the "meta-gamer" on a player's level. This particular player was "confiscating" all the sellable items and gold the party would find, so he could use it himself toward his character's own ends. It got so bad, that I told the dude straight out, "Look man, if you don't start sharing with the group, I refuse to heal you, whatsoever (I was the groups healer)." He just kind of stared at me for a while, and then said, "You can't do that!" I held my ground and told him I would refuse to heal his character unless he started playing like a team player. Enough "confiscating" items and gold from the rest of the group, because that's not right. It was at that point, everyone else at the table started to stand their ground too. Front line fighters told him they would switch places with him in combat, and everyone pretty much told him if his character was going to act like an individual, he would be treated like an individual. Even the DM jumped in and said he would allow the actions of everyone else, because he was affecting the game for everyone else and not playing as part of the team.
Our DM warned him on multiple occassions, but he just didn't want to listen, so we as players took action. Sometimes, peer pressure works better than aurthority, especially if someone is trying to build a "super character". He gets banned, he takes his character somewhere else. His character gets killed, he has to start all over again, which is worse than being banned. Talk to your other players, if you can. See how they feel about the meta-gamer and his actions. There's the strong possibility they want to speak up, but don't know if they can or they should. If they do have a negative outlook on that meta-gamer, encourage them to say something to him about his actions. |
| #20NoonNov 27, 2014 0:14:20 |
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| #21NoonNov 27, 2014 0:18:08 |
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| (Reply to #16)DungeonKrusher |
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| (Reply to #17)DungeonKrusher |
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| (Reply to #20)TheBreen |
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| #25NoonNov 27, 2014 16:53:51 |
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| (Reply to #20)Jeraxle |
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| (Reply to #25)TheBreen |
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| #28JeraxleNov 27, 2014 17:28:03 | The 2nd player, only plays with the group I game with and doesn't run adventures so when he let slip that he's read ahead on up coming adventures a couple of us at the table were more then a little concerned. We've decided as a whole to confront him over this and give him a warning about "cheating" and if he continues to read ahead and use it to get around traps or find out treasure he will be asked to leave. The shop owner/main DM and I discussed this last night after running a session 1-5(we are a little behind) |
| (Reply to #22)SteveMND |
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| #30JeraxleNov 27, 2014 22:16:18 | Ok it seems this thread has tail spined just a little. So let me clarify a few things
1. These 2 guys are actually great gamers but since they are both unable to break characters and make a Munchkin they both think the system is not fun(one in fact said that this is the worst system, he has never experienced Thac0) myself and the main DM both re-itterated the "rule" of AL specifically the Code of Conduct the "meta gamer "looked shocked but during the last game he had a noticeable change, the 2nd player couldn't seem to care less.
2. I do not *hate* them I find their lack of respect to shop the owner and other gamers bothersome.
3. The player letting slip that he has read ahead, upset the main DM and myself. Yes I am aware that you can play with multiple characters as well as run but when you have no intention in running could you not classify that as cheating? After the session the main DM pulled him aside and explained what he is doing is killing the enjoyment of the game for the others and has asked him to stop.
That being said if anyone else can give suggestions I look forward to reading.
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| #31NoonNov 28, 2014 0:45:30 |
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| #32TheBreenNov 28, 2014 11:57:52 | I wasn't trying to be argumentative, I was just trying to point out that reading the adventure and using that knowledge to spoil things for other people are two different things. Your gamer may be spoiling the adventure, but I didn't want other people to think that reading the adventure by itself was disallowed by the rules.
For example, I have to read every adventure and be prepared to run them, but I often get to play them too. The trick is to let other players discover the traps and make key decisions where my knowledge would make a difference. (It's also helpful that we DMs mix things up a little bit so not everything is exactly the way it's written into the adventure.)
Back in the days of Living City, I would have had to decide between running the adventure or playing in it, which is a tough choice (I love both parts of D&D). I'm glad that's no longer the case, though the idea of actually playing the adventure more than once (even with a different character) still seems alien to me.
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| (Reply to #27)DungeonKrusher |
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| (Reply to #32)DungeonKrusher |
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| #35NoonNov 29, 2014 16:23:27 |
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| #36thorbardinNov 30, 2014 3:46:34 | Anyone who actively reads ahead, and continues to do so when asked politely to stop, is sabotaging the game. The only reason to do so is because the player doesn't trust the DM and wants all the ammunition he can get his hands on to 1) tell everyone else how he would've done it, 2) tell everyone else how it's not written that way, 3) appear to be awesome by always knowing where to go and what to do. The mentality of this player is a "players VERSUS dm"... and isn't playing collaborative-ball.
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