What is the INT of the magic sword in HotDQ?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Cyberqat

Jan 20, 2015 14:33:39

SPOILER

 

 

 

 

 

Horde of the Dragon Queen has a magic sword as a treasure in the Cloud Castle.  The book says it is intelligent and ligned but does not give an INT score.

#2

Cyberqat

Jan 20, 2015 14:49:48

Actually as I red the DMg i need 3 stats, CHR being the most important...

(Reply to #2)

wwinfrey

Cyberqat wrote:
(Reply to #3)

Cyberqat

wwinfrey wrote:
(Reply to #3)

Pauper

wwinfrey wrote:
#6

CahPahkah

Jan 22, 2015 14:21:41

Pauper wrote:
(Reply to #6)

Pauper

CahPahkah wrote:
#8

CahPahkah

Jan 22, 2015 15:31:57

Pauper wrote:
(Reply to #8)

Pauper

CahPahkah wrote:
(Reply to #9)

CahPahkah

Pauper wrote:
#11

Cyberqat

Jan 23, 2015 11:49:32

SO... we have two very different points of view.

 

Personally, I dont think its reasonable to say "Hazirawn is an aligned and sentient item BUT is doesnt work according to sentient item rules."

Either its non sentient OR I have to give it stats.  Either way, I am changing whats  in the book.

@Canpahk  - I don't believe that your quotes from AL ruels apply here directly.  They are all about changing items that are well described NOT about filling in for information that is not given.  I believe elsewhere in the AL guids and the clarifications given online it says that part of the role of tthe Gm is to fill in for missing information.

Short answer is... I see both sides of your arguments and IMHO we *really* need a ruling from WOTC.

Until we have such a ruling I am going to go with the closest thing I can find in the DMG since I have not

seen *anywhere* a statement that published Al adventures override the rules in the DMG.  This strikes me as

the least of all evils.

 

I will notate the situation on the card I give the player and then it is up to other AL GMs to allow it or not.

 

#12

Kalani

Jan 23, 2015 12:01:48

Well according to the rules in the DMG - if a stat isn't listed, it should be 10.... By that logic, Hawziran's stats are 10 across the board for the purpose of conflict. Anything else would be going beyond what is allowed for a DM in AL.

#13

CahPahkah

Jan 23, 2015 12:38:57

Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #10)

Pauper

CahPahkah wrote:
#15

Kalani

Jan 23, 2015 13:31:30

Pauper, you are forgetting the golden rule.

 

Specific beats general (this is stated emphatically somewhere in the rules, although i cannot cite a source off the top of my head and don't have time to find it).

Hazirawn is a specific magic item, in a specific sourcebook, for a specific campaign. The DMG covers the general rules for sentient magic items.

 

Hazirawn > DMG.

(Reply to #13)

TheBreen

CahPahkah wrote:
#17

CahPahkah

Jan 23, 2015 14:07:08

Pauper wrote:
(Reply to #17)

Cyberqat

CahPahkah wrote:
#19

CahPahkah

Jan 23, 2015 14:39:30

Cyberqat wrote:
#20

Coredump00

Jan 23, 2015 21:44:26

I concur with Kalani and CahPahkah,

 

Adventures are allowed to create whatever they want.  They can add or modify any magic items, or creatures, or whatever. .  HotDQ has created a 'different' kind of sentient weapon than the 'standard' sentient weapon.  Just because it is different, doesn't mean table DMs are authorized to change it from what is stated in the adventure to what is stated in the DMG.

 

Just like the Cloak of Elvenkind from DDex1-8 was a 'different' version.  And the table DM was *not* authorized to change it to match the DMG version.  Yes, the Admins have that power, just like the admins have the power to  change how Hazirawn works.  According to the adventure, the sword does not have a Purpose.... if  you assign it one, you are changing the magic item, and the guidelines are *very* specific about not allowing that. 

(Reply to #12)

Coredump00

Kalani wrote:
#22

Kalani

Jan 23, 2015 22:11:32

It isn't stated (I thought it was, but I was apparently misremembering the sentient item rules and/or confusing them with a previous edition), but seeing as we should not be granting the item bonuses or penalties it does not have, 10's across the board is the most logical assumption. 

 

That gives us a +0 modifier on conflict checks - not that I expect Hazirawn to make many conflict checks (outside of those based on alignment conflicts), as it lacks a specific purpose.

 

#23

Oraibi

Jan 24, 2015 0:32:25 		Speaking for myself, I find CahPahkah's arguments to be most persuasive. Barring an errata from the AL, GMs are not empowered to set stats for this item.
(Reply to #23)

Cyberqat

Oraibi wrote:
#25

Kalani

Jan 24, 2015 9:15:49

Cyberqat wrote:
#26

Cyberqat

Jan 24, 2015 9:16:27

I have asked my local AL coordinator if he can get us a ruling on this...

(Reply to #25)

Coredump00

Kalani wrote:
#28

TheBreen

Jan 24, 2015 16:52:24

"Hazirawn

Weapon (greatsword), legendary, requires attunement

 

A sentient (neutral evil) greatsword, Hazirawn is capable of speech in Common and Netherese. Even if you aren't attuned to the sword, you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls made with this weapon." [Horde of the Dragon Queen, Appendix C: Magic Items, page 94. Entry goes on to list additional abilities if attuned.]

 

That's all the guidance we are given on Hazirawn. It is defined as a sentient magic item.

 

"Abilities

A sentient magic item has Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores." [The Dungeon Master's Guide [page 214]

 

By definition, if the magic item is sentient, it has Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. This should answer Coredump00's question ("Does a sentient being always have Cha?" Yes.)

 

The Dungeon Master's Guide [page 214] goes on:

"In any case, the item behaves like a character, complete with personality quirks, ideals, bonds, and sometimes flaws. A sentient item imght be a cherished ally to its wielder or a continaul thorn in the side. […] Sentient magic items function as NPCs under the DM's control. Any activated property of the item is under the item's control, not its wielder's."

 

Thus, Hazirawn is an NPC under the DM's control. JUST LIKE WITH ANY OTHER NPC, it's up to the DM to play out any personality, desires, etc. that the NPC has if it becomes important to the game. That bartender in the no-name town doesn't usually need any stats, but if the PCs pick a fight, they may find out he's a retired 9th level fighter. Or a 0-level commoner. It's up to the DM. Likewise, in the absence of a stats block, it's up to the DM to come up with stats for the NPC. That's a large part of what DMing is, after all.

 

This is incredibly important, as all of the decisions about whether there is any conflict with the sword's personality and how that conflict plays out is essentially completely up to the DM— JUST LIKE WITH ANY OTHER NPC. If the DM determines a conflict arises, it's up to her to determine the difficulty of the check, just like with any other unscripted ability check.

 

I'm not sure why this isn't obvious to anyone who has played role-playing games before.

#29

Coredump00

Jan 24, 2015 18:11:40

There is a signifcant difference between an ad hoc personalty, and assigning that personality.

 

If you switch tables, that bartender will have a different personality, as will the sword.

(Reply to #6)

Dyndrilliac

CahPahkah wrote:

Cyberqat

Jan 25, 2015 10:29:48

This is the response from out AL coordinator.  Bottom line is, where there is missing information, its up to the DM.  Just be sure to document your decision:

 

DM Dave HotDQ was written before the rules on sentient magic items was completed. As you have noted, there are no stats for Charisma. The AL has not directly addressed this issue, but they have issued the more general answer for what to do about ambiguities in the rules, found here:http://dndadventurersleague.org/sage/index.php....

Bottom line, there is a lot of leeway granted to a DM when there is no clear ruling on a question. The best suggestion I found for Hazirawn is the first response to this post: http://community.wizards.com/.../dd.../threads/4167766

Essentially, the DM who awards Hazirawn should document how they feel it should be used (fill in the missing pieces, like abilities, senses, ideals, bonds and flaws). Write all this down on a DM's note that the player can keep with their character. When playing with a new DM, the player should offer the note, and the new DM is free to take the advice and use it as-is, or may choose to alter it.

(Reply to #31)

Cyberqat

By the way, he also pointed me at this in the AL FAQ which pretty clearly spells out that the GM at your table is the final arbiter in the case of any ambiguity.

 

And ambiguity is defined as the GM not seeing a clear rule, whether you think you do or not...

http://dndadventurersleague.org/sage/index.php?title=Frequently_Asked_Questions_%28FAQ%29#Are_there_official_rulings_on_ambiguities_in_the_D.26D_rules.3F_If_so.2C_where_should_I_find_them.3F

 

AL, it turns out, is not an excuse to rules layer.

#33

Coredump00

Jan 25, 2015 14:55:00

What makes you think that DMDave is your Regional Coordinator...??

 

Or that he is a more authorative source than the AL admins that post here..??

 

 

Oh, and thanks for slurring those that disagree with you by assuming they are trying to Rules Lawyer.....  insults are always classy.

#34

CahPahkah

Jan 25, 2015 20:16:21

Dyndrilliac wrote:
#35

CahPahkah

Jan 25, 2015 20:30:53

Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #29)

Pauper

Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #36)

Coredump00

Pauper wrote:
(Reply to #37)

Pauper

Coredump00 wrote:
#39

Coredump00

Jan 26, 2015 11:07:27

Favor of the Black Fists etc are rewards you can get from the adventure.

 

But one DM is not allowed to dictate the stats of an NPC to a different DM on a different table.

 

If I walk into the Black Sheep tavern, and my DM says the bartender is friendly and talkative and willing to help; and then I go to your table and walk into the Black Sheep tavern, you are *not* obligated to play the bartender the same way, regardless of what is written on my log sheet. 

 

Likewise if I decide to lie to the police chief, and my DM decides the chief has Insight check with Wisdom of 7; you are *not* obligated to use that stat when I meet the same police chielf at your table. Regardless of what I put on my logsheet.

 

And even Favor of the Black Fists:  Just because my DM decided that allows me to dress in their uniforms and have free reign of thier barracks whenever I want, does not mean you are obligated to treat the Favor the same way.

 

 

As a DM you are allowed to adjudicate grey areas or ambiguities.... you still are not allowed to *change* a magic item.  You may have to make some ruling for your table is you don't have enough information... but you still can't change the magic item.

 

Its is okay to rule that "since I don't have info, I am making the check as if it has Cha of X"

It is not okay to declare "Since they didn't supply it, I am changing that magic item to have a Cha of X"

(Reply to #34)

Dyndrilliac

CahPahkah wrote:
#41

Pauper

Jan 26, 2015 11:35:53

If that's the way you want to run your AL table, that's cool.

 

As for me, I'll run my table the way I think will be the most fun for my players. That includes having the PC who saves the bartender's life during an impromptu bar brawl gone wrong (not called for in the adventure, but the drunken barbarian started it) log that he has the favor of the bartender for doing so, and being able to use that log note as a reminder of the previous session so that the bartender doesn't just forget his buddy.

 

And that includes using the DMG to complete the design of Hazirawn so that the player has an actual intelligent evil sword to worry about rather than just some glowy hunk of metal he only hangs onto for the attunement bonus.

 

If I'm doing it wrong, the AL admins know where to find me.

 

--

Pauper

(Reply to #40)

Coredump00

Dyndrilliac wrote:
#43

CahPahkah

Jan 26, 2015 11:50:53

Dyndrilliac wrote:
(Reply to #43)

Pauper

CahPahkah wrote:
#45

CahPahkah

Jan 26, 2015 14:15:42

Pauper wrote:
(Reply to #40)

TheBreen

Dyndrilliac wrote: