While Dragonlance is possible, I think it doesn't stand out enough compared to FR and Eberron to be released right after them. On the other hand, Dark Sun seems too weird and niche.
Think of the stuff we've seen in Dragon that is reasonably related to Dark Sun.
To me, that indicates that the designers and developers have been thinking about that setting, which in turn suggests they may already be doing some preliminary work on it.
Now if I had my wish I would hope for a Ravenloft 4e setting, but I doubt that will ever be...
Don't know if you heard, but the Domains of Dread ie Ravenloft are part of the cosmology now, and IIRC will get some mentions in the Manual of the Planes.
I vote for Dark Sun. It is niche, but is also not boilerplate swords and sorcery. I love me some Eberron, but it's all lipstick on pigs.
Dark Sun always felt different
I vote for Dark Sun. It is niche, but is also not boilerplate swords and sorcery. I love me some Eberron, but it's all lipstick on pigs.
Dark Sun always felt different
I am praying for Darksun 2010...Heck if WotC is reading this I will buy 2 copies of the books...
Which means I'll save a little money in 2010.
Were I to bet, I would bet Dark Sun.
Which means I'll save a little money in 2010.
Agreed, but then again, I don't know much about Dark Sun besides that it sounds really restrictive. (Wizards are evil?)
Both I would be more then happy to see occur.
I have a feeling we will be seeing Dragonlance next (after Ebberon). Now if I had my wish I would hope for a Ravenloft 4e setting, but I doubt that will ever be...in fact I'm sure we will Dark Sun and possibly Al-Qudim before that.
I'd go for either Ravenloft or Al-Qadim, but alas, I think most here are right that it will be Dark Sun (never liked it) and then Dragonlance (ok novels, but never got into the campaign setting). Until Ravenloft comes out I'll just do my own horror based campaign. As an Historian specializing in the Medieval Middle and Near East (11th-15th centuries) I am really eager to see Al-Qadim make a comeback ASAP. I love the flavor of the setting. Also love Oriental Adventures. There's just something nice about campaign settings that are not so "Western" in flavor. Besides, who wouldn't want to live out an Arabian Nights style adventure or play a Wong Fei Hung (one of my personal heroes, master of the Hung Gar style and inventor of the Tiger-Crane style) like character?
I'd go for either Ravenloft or Al-Qadim, but alas, I think most here are right that it will be Dark Sun (never liked it) and then Dragonlance (ok novels, but never got into the campaign setting). Until Ravenloft comes out I'll just do my own horror based campaign. As an Historian specializing in the Medieval Middle and Near East (11th-15th centuries) I am really eager to see Al-Qadim make a comeback ASAP. I love the flavor of the setting. Also love Oriental Adventures. There's just something nice about campaign settings that are not so "Western" in flavor. Besides, who wouldn't want to live out an Arabian Nights style adventure or play a Wong Fei Hung (one of my personal heroes, master of the Hung Gar style and inventor of the Tiger-Crane style) like character?
I would like a Orient-flavored book myself. Would go well with the ki power source and the 4e rules do have a Crouching Tiger kind of feel
I would put my money on Dark Sun, based off Dragon material, or, Planescape. Given that there is a Mercykiller playtest this month for some book we don't know yet.
Both I would be more then happy to see occur.
I'd guess the new material for "Mercykillers" might be a good sign for a future Planescape campaign setting coming out soon, though I'm not sure whether it will be the next one.
This may also depend on whether they stick to the 'one campaign setting per year' schedule, or speed it up to two.
I love Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, so I would happy to see the expansion of that world sometime soon. :3
My preference for existing campaign settings would be Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Oriental Adventures, and Al Quadim. For me though, Dark Sun comes first. There are oriental, mid-eastern, and horror influenced elements in 4e already. I am not saying that whole settings based on these things would not be good, of course. But I am saying that there is nothing quite like Dark Sun out there!
Considering what was once said about Campaing Settings by one of the first civilians to see the PHB, and who got to talk to the designers, I would say that it would have to either be, Grayhawk, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape or Spelljammer, in that order of likelyhood.
I love Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, so I would happy to see the expansion of that world sometime soon. :3
Ravenloft has been dismanted and the best parts have been built into the base PoL setting. I seriously doubt we are going to see it as a seperate campaign setting especially since Strahd(or w/e his name is) is reported to be appearing in Open Grave. I want to say the same thing applies to Planscape also, but I'm not familiar with it. As for my personal guess for the new settings:
2010: Dark Sun
2011: Second contest winner
2012: Greyhawk
2013: Third contest winner
I have a feeling we will be seeing Dragonlance next (after Ebberon). Now if I had my wish I would hope for a Ravenloft 4e setting, but I doubt that will ever be...in fact I'm sure we will Dark Sun and possibly Al-Qudim before that.
I hope to never ever ever see a dragon lance setting again, worsed setting ever created, and personally I thought ravenloft also kinda blew, evil had way too much power, and zombies were ridiculous you had to show up with 3 characters because your first was guaranteed to die. My vote is for darksun because I really liked the setting.
I would bet the return of Ravenloft, but I don´t know if novels are still canon.
I hope, I expect, the novels of Dark Sun are still canon, but.. Will the DS 4th ed be a reboot or reset?
I thought Dragonlance was one of "favourit" settings, together Greyhawk, Eberron and FR but now I don´t be sure. WotC has sold a lot of novels (near 190!!) of Dragonlance. Why not will be the third setting?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dragonlance_novels
I love Dark Sun. My first AD&D book was the Dark Sun monster compedium, but I imagine a Dragonlance setting will be sold better DS books because Dr. are more famous and popular.
(<--gotta have the shades on for Athas!)As others have pointed out, the re-release of the novels, the article(s) directly pertaining to (Hazards of...) or peripherally pertaining to (Gladiators) Dark Sun, the overwhelming support by the devs when asked point-blank, and the rather significant support on the forums would indicate this would be a very sound choice indeed, and something the team itself is already on board for.
Please, though, not a total reset. Keep the books as canon wherever possible. At the least keep the Prism Pentad as canon, please. Keep the world utterly brutal, and Barsoomian as heck, but let the power vacuums be filled in logical ways, with "Points of Hope" in a world that fights tooth, claw and psyche against such hope at every turn. Don't bring about an Age of Heroes, make such an age a possible future, far off in the distance, with a lot of work yet to be done to reach such a stage (if such ever comes to fruition). Free Tyr needs to be a vision of how brutal a city-state can be WITHOUT a nearly-omnipotent authoritarian power in charge of it. Moreover, Free Tyr should be a place of constant war, with competition against sorcerer-monarchs AND the intense threat of an invading kreen army always looming in the background.
Likewise, as has been expressed by others, after Dark Sun I would like to see a new campaign setting altogether. I would like to see approximately one new setting every other year, with one or two old settings redone in between.
Finally, mark me down as yet another customer who'd like to see a slightly swifter schedule than a mere one campaign per year. Either two per year, or one every eight months at the most, would be preferable to an annual schedule.
...Finally, mark me down as yet another customer who'd like to see a slightly swifter schedule than a mere one campaign per year. Either two per year, or one every eight months at the most, would be preferable to an annual schedule.
No...don't do that. Keep it at one per year, I want quality over quanity. I'd much rather see one per year come out as something good rather then two rushed-to-completion jobs.
In any case Forgotten Realms and Eberron have no interest for me, but I might pick up a Dark Sun or Greyhawk setting. Still if they want my cash no matter what, they gotta remake the "Domains of Dread".
No...don't do that. Keep it at one per year, I want quality over quanity. I'd much rather see one per year come out as something good rather then two rushed-to-completion jobs.
These are not mutually exclusive. That is a false dichotomy. Especially if the third setting per cycle is a new setting. Remember, they are not doing what has been done in previous editions, where they are releasing a FR book every other MONTH, and an Eberron book every other month, and additional material for differing campaigns that altogether add up to ~the same type of schedule. One really well-done campaign guide and one really well-done player's guide and maybe one well-done module released ~ever 8 months is in no way unreasonable, nor unrealistic to expect high quality, nor needing of a rush job. Such a situation isn't even close to comparable to the release schedule of 3.X, or even 2E, possibly even 1E!
On the other hand, one one campaign and player's guide per YEAR might very well push players to the campaigns designed by other companies, who can get fluff-centric products out in a more timely manner, and take at least a portion of that expendable income and divert its flow away from WotC. *shrug*
Incidentally, I'd prefer one setting per 8 months, i.e. three every 2 years. Two per year is the absolute fastest I'd expect to see between such releases.
Agreed, but then again, I don't know much about Dark Sun besides that it sounds really restrictive. (Wizards are evil?)
I played its 2e incarnation. Didn't care for it.
FROM WHAT I REMEMBER (which may not apply to the 4e incarnation)
Arcane power drew from the land. You could do it quickly, but kill any nearby plantlife and make it incapable of sustaining plantlife for decades (the 'defiler' casting technique) or do it very slowly and gather the power in such a way that it wouldn't create more wasteland (the 'preserver' casting).
The whole world is a desert (at least, the playable part of it). There's little to no metal; most weapons and armor are made out of bone, stone, carapaces, and the like (and thus suck).
There are no gods, clerics worship elemental powers or 'dragon-kings' or something of the sort ... everything is under the control of these tyrannical dragonkings (I may not be remembering the term right), warring city-states with gladiatorial arenas are the norm.
In the 2e incarnation, the 'random chance of random psionic powers' rule was a campaign standard; how/if this will be integrated into 4e Dark Sun, I couldn't guess. Most of the races in the 3E Expanded Psionics Handbook were introduced there, like the half-giant and thri-kreen. The standard PC races got twisted in some way or another (IIRC, halflings were cannibals).
So, really, it's a giant crapsack world with no real hope of accomplishing anything, with a better chance of dying of exposure than in a dramatic, climactic battle with anything at stake.
I played its 2e incarnation. Didn't care for it.
FROM WHAT I REMEMBER (which may not apply to the 4e incarnation)
Arcane power drew from the land. You could do it quickly, but kill any nearby plantlife and make it incapable of sustaining plantlife for decades (the 'defiler' casting technique) or do it very slowly and gather the power in such a way that it wouldn't create more wasteland (the 'preserver' casting).
The whole world is a desert (at least, the playable part of it). There's little to no metal; most weapons and armor are made out of bone, stone, carapaces, and the like (and thus suck).
There are no gods, clerics worship elemental powers or 'dragon-kings' or something of the sort ... everything is under the control of these tyrannical dragonkings (I may not be remembering the term right), warring city-states with gladiatorial arenas are the norm.
In the 2e incarnation, the 'random chance of random psionic powers' rule was a campaign standard; how/if this will be integrated into 4e Dark Sun, I couldn't guess. Most of the races in the 3E Expanded Psionics Handbook were introduced there, like the half-giant and thri-kreen. The standard PC races got twisted in some way or another (IIRC, halflings were cannibals).
So, really, it's a giant crapsack world with no real hope of accomplishing anything, with a better chance of dying of exposure than in a dramatic, climactic battle with anything at stake.
Basicly what I thought. The ways I can think of to preserve the flavor of the world while at the same time being less restrictive on player options are few, and might not actually preserve the flavor as much as would be liked.
Sounds like the flavor of "drawing magic from the earth over time or quickly" sounds like it really depends on the Vancian mindset of how magic works...
If there was some sort of "epic conflict" that the world dealt with that had been hidden up until now, and if the world had in some way been able to sustain itself/recover over time instead of waste away, then it might be/become viable as a campaign setting. But at this point though, the setting sounds more appropriate for another (mostly-bad) D&D movie.
My guesses for next CS are:
1) Something new or one of the remaining contest winning options.
2) Dark Sun, though I'm not wild about the setting.
3) Greyhawk.
Bel
After that, I say Greyhawk. Its following and history to D&D will attract a few people out of curiousity, if nothing else.
These are not mutually exclusive. That is a false dichotomy. Especially if the third setting per cycle is a new setting. Remember, they are not doing what has been done in previous editions, where they are releasing a FR book every other MONTH, and an Eberron book every other month, and additional material for differing campaigns that altogether add up to ~the same type of schedule. One really well-done campaign guide and one really well-done player's guide and maybe one well-done module released ~ever 8 months is in no way unreasonable, nor unrealistic to expect high quality, nor needing of a rush job. Such a situation isn't even close to comparable to the release schedule of 3.X, or even 2E, possibly even 1E!
On the other hand, one one campaign and player's guide per YEAR might very well push players to the campaigns designed by other companies, who can get fluff-centric products out in a more timely manner, and take at least a portion of that expendable income and divert its flow away from WotC. *shrug*
Do you know why they aren't printing FR and Eberron books every other month? Because it didn't make as much money as non-campaign specific books did.
The problem was an oversaturation of a niche market. Not everyone wants campaign-specific material, even if they like the campaign. Everyone is interested in player and DM options (IE. Complete line, MM). Printing 13 books for Eberron and 5 Monster Manuals in 3ed was simply a bad business decision, as the latter sold far better than any of the former did.
So far, WotC has a balanced output of campaign specific material with material useful anywhere. I'm sure that, by the end of 4ed's run, every significant setting will be represented.
Do you know why they aren't printing FR and Eberron books every other month? Because it didn't make as much money as non-campaign specific books did.
Ummm...yeah, I know. I was in no way endorsing such a silly release schedule. Sheesh. One entirely new campaign setting every 6 months at the least, but preferably ~every 8 months seems completely doable. Having 20+ books per major setting, or even half that? Not so smart. One setting per year is simply too long to wait, in my opinion, especially if they wish to introduce any new settings.
Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Birthright, Greyhawk, Mystara, Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Council of Wyrms, Oriental Adventures (Kara-tur), Arabian Adventures (Al Qadim). Even if the last two are folded into another Forgotten Realms book along with Abeir itself, that is still 9 years of redone campaign settings alone. If not, it's 11 years. Now, add in new settings every now and then, and sorry, but a significant number (likely too many) of those settings will never see production with that sort of schedule.
Given the current model for settings books (3 and done), as well as the PoL model ("No fluff outside an adventure"), WotC seems to be very uninterested in new settings. It's all adventures, crunch, and minis.
Why, praytell, do you think WotC wants to add new settings?
Because they said the planned to release a new campaign setting every year for the foreseeable future, probably.
Just a guess, though.
I hope to never ever ever see a dragon lance setting again, worsed setting ever created, and personally I thought ravenloft also kinda blew, evil had way too much power, and zombies were ridiculous you had to show up with 3 characters because your first was guaranteed to die. My vote is for darksun because I really liked the setting.
Dark Sun was nice, but I like Dragonlance FAR better. In fact, Dragonlance is probably my favorite of campaign settings (though FR I believe is more popular amongst RP).
In addition, I think Dragonlance kind of blew Dark Sun away in the Sales numbers and market as a whole.
GreyHawk, Dragonlance, or Ravenloft are probably higher on the list then Dark Sun.
I never got the chance to play Dark Sun back in 2e, but I've heard good things about it. Based on how much attention it's been getting lately in Dragon and Dungeon I'd say it's probably a good bet that this setting will come back... probably around the same time as the psionics power source.
I'm a big Ravenloft fan, and I would like to see more of it and Planescape... however, I'll be completely happy if info on these two is released in Dragon and such, as long as they are represented well, and often (i.e. not once a year on Halloween.)
I would absolutely kill to get a 4e reboot of Spelljammer... probably folded into the main cosmology and treated as "sailing the Astral Sea". I think the airships in the Adventurer's Vault are a natural lead-in for PC owned spelljammer ships. Alongwith the Spelljammer reboot I would love to see an adventure series that takes the PCs between different established campaign worlds (Toril, Krynn, Oerth, The World (Points of Light), Eberron (don't know the planet name), etc., etc.)
I would like to see at least one more campaign guide and player's handbook devoted to Toril. I know that that would give that particular world two of each instead of the planned one each, but I really want Kara-Tur and Zakhara to be fleshed out and treated as fully-playable sections of the Realms... not like red-headed step-children like they were in 3e.
Finally, I would really like to see D20 Modern return... but I want it to be fully folded into the D&D system, not just kinda similar, but hard to mesh. My players and I loved running campaigns that had their characters running back and forth between various settings/"dimensions"... including various modern Earths, future Earths, the Forgotten Realms, and Greyhawk (to name a few)... usually using the Plane of Shadow as a conduit to get from one world to the next. The last campaign we ran before 4e came out was an expanded version of "The Bastion of Broken Souls" in which the PCs had to travel between different worlds to piece together the mystery of why babies were being born without souls throughout the multiverse and eventually killing Ashardalon with a critical hit from an enchanted bullet that the gunslinger in the group had been carrying the entire campaign, saving for the creature that caused his nephew to be born soulless.
I'm probably forgetting a setting or two, but that's enough rambling for now.
Other than that I'd expect Dark Sun or Planescape. I'd love to see a Spelljammer setting though.
Personally I liked the Dragonlance books back in the day but I never really enjoyed the setting as an aspect of D&D. I hope they leave that one in the past.
Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft, and Spelljammer.
I am definitely thinking Dark Sun will be the premiered campaign settings of 2010, with the PHB III being Ki, Psionic and Shadow Heroes.
I'm still holding out for my favourite and most elegant of campaign settings: Al-Qadim.
Dragonlance is too similar in feel to Eberron/FR as far and material goes..
Planescape I think might be pretty much covered by manual of the planes (they have already state Sigil is core again) - although the Mercykiller play test has me thinking maybe.. (if it is still the mercykiller faction from PS and not something else)
Ravenloft - is already been introduced via Dragon, i think it might end up a regular thing in the magazine, meaning there is no real need to release the setting nay time too soon..
So that leaves Spelljammer and Dark Sun (according to what WOTC has said, adding in Dragonlance for good measure) - and from the evidence presented (Dragon Articles and the rerelease of the Troy Denning books) it leads me to believe (and really really hope) Dark Sun will be after Eberron!
WotC has stated the following campaign settings are/were being considered for 4th Ed:
Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft, and Spelljammer.
I am definitely thinking Dark Sun will be the premiered campaign settings of 2010, with the PHB III being Ki, Psionic and Shadow Heroes.
I'm still holding out for my favourite and most elegant of campaign settings: Al-Qadim.
Actually they said that every official campaign setting ever released for D&D has at least one supporter in the office, and thus pretty much every single one is being considered.
Actually they said that every official campaign setting ever released for D&D has at least one supporter in the office, and thus pretty much every single one is being considered.
Actually that's not what I was referencing, they mentioned the specific campaign settings being considered, and Mystara was not one of them.
So stick that in your pipe and shmoke it!
Actually that's not what I was referencing, they mentioned the specific campaign settings being considered, and Mystara was not one of them.
So stick that in your pipe and shmoke it!
Did they specifically state that they were only considering the settings that they mentioned in that instance? Because if not, there is still plenty of room for them to be considering other settings.
No?
I'm betting that a lot of stuff will get folded over into core or the two biggies. Heck, two settings are already FR, and MoP covers Ravenloft and Planescape. It's just a matter of adding the stars to the astral sea to get Spelljammer, which was already brought back quietly in Lords of Madness.
Darksun will get it's time in the sun soon, there is little doubt. The question is how will they fix it? Because it has to fit 4e at least rules-wise (hey check out that debate in the Darksun forum), and all the conflicting canon has to be ironed out, and our sense of otherworldly fashion has evolved. I am talking about leopard prints with Kank helmets here. Also, the only real dragon died, kinda spoiling the mood.
Dragonlance will have to be it's own world too (too much history of dragons, absent gods, and such), but what sets Grayhawk apart again? Any reason why Birthright can't be core?
Greyhawk and Dragolance. Fanboys plus money all but guarantees them for the next two released. TBH, I wouldn't object if they accelerated the schedule to accomodate them.
Category 2: Realistic possibilities.
Rumours about PHBIII for 2010 make these three possible: Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Oriental Adventures.
Category 3: Less likely, longer range.
Planescape, Spelljammer
Category 4: Don't hold your breath...
Al Quadim, Mystara, Hollow World, Birthright.
I'm going to acknowledge the possibility of a wild card in that they may have something completely new to offer...
Also, even if Ravenloft, Spelljammer and Planescape get folded into core, they are still rich enough for their own fluff books.
What about this: Early year you get a new world, later in the year you get something that's "folded in", like Eberron in February next year, then Dragonlance in the fall. Dark Sun in the early half of the year, Ravenloft int he second half for 2010...
WotC has stated the following campaign settings are/were being considered for 4th Ed:
Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft, and Spelljammer.
Where, when was it said??
:OMG! My own teory is; 1st Dark Sun, 2nd Ravenloft, 3rd Planescape and 4th Spelljammer.
I thing Spelljmmer 4th Ed. may be really a "playtest" of a comingsoon d20 Future 2.0. (and Ravenloft other playtesting of d20 Past 2.0.?)
And I don´t rule out any books of Dragonlance with 100% background (nothing of rules or stats), for fans of novels.
I wonder if Greyhawk, Birthright or Mystara will be settings for official D&D videogames..(MMO like "world of warcraft"). Living Greyhawk is very popular, isn´t it?
Did they specifically state that they were only considering the settings that they mentioned in that instance?
They gave a specific list of previous campaign settings they were considering for 4th Ed treatment; though I do believe Dragonlance was also on the list (Luis will be happy).
Now of course that doesn't mean those are the only campaign settings in existence they are considering, they could be considering the Palace of the Crystal Bunky setting for all we know.
Where, when was it said??
I will try to find it for you, it was stated some time very late last year, or very early this year.
but it seems they would just ruin these worlds so I hope it will be
Birthright, Ravenloft or whatever
The more I think about it, the more I think Spelljammer, Planescape and Ravenloft "settings" are just going to be incorporated into the "assumed" setting.
Is a book of planes II possible? I refer to a book wich talk about the space ships (spelljamming helms and phlogiston), the city of Sigil (+ Lady of Pain) and the domains of demiplane of dread (+ the dark powers).
Is a book of planes II possible? I refer to a book wich talk about the space ships (spelljamming helms and phlogiston), the city of Sigil (+ Lady of Pain) and the domains of demiplane of dread (+ the dark powers).
I would actually enjoy that content as well.
Also, climate change and global warming are part of our shared social consciousness right now, just as pollution and acid rain was when DS was first released. I do believe that what is going on in our real world has some influence in shaping our fantasy worlds.
Thirdly, Dave Noonan loves Dark Sun, and Bill Slavicsek wrote the revised version. There are some pro-Athas heavy hitters in "the building" .
Fourth, I'm biased since I played more Dark Sun then any other campaign setting, and I absolutely loved it.
If psionics is out in PHIII as most believe (especially if it gets 4 of the assumed 8 classes), then I think Dark Sun would be a logical choice for the next setting. You simply cannot release Dark Sun until Psionics is out.
Also, climate change and global warming are part of our shared social consciousness right now, just as pollution and acid rain was when DS was first released. I do believe that what is going on in our real world has some influence in shaping our fantasy worlds.
Thirdly, Dave Noonan loves Dark Sun, and Bill Slavicsek wrote the revised version. There are some pro-Athas heavy hitters in "the building" .
Fourth, I'm biased since I played more Dark Sun then any other campaign setting, and I absolutely loved it.
I just don't think its a coincidence that they are re-releasing Troy Dennings DS series
Is a book of planes II possible? I refer to a book wich talk about the space ships (spelljamming helms and phlogiston), the city of Sigil (+ Lady of Pain) and the domains of demiplane of dread (+ the dark powers).
Hopefully each plane could receive its own hardcover book. I think there's enough material in the Shadowfell, Feywild, Elemental Chaos, Abyss, and Astral Sea to warrant its own book.
But not the Far Realms. That'd be crazy! :88E: :coolcthul
Hopefully each plane could receive its own hardcover book. I think there's enough material in the Shadowfell, Feywild, Elemental Chaos, Abyss, and Astral Sea to warrant its own book.
But not the Far Realms. That'd be crazy! :88E: :coolcthul
It would be a 4th Ed of Lord of Madness: book of aberrations. I think there are some cool aberrations from 3rd Ed.
(Do you imagine "aberrations invade Ravenloft" "Stran Von Zarovich againts the cult of Thoon!!"?)
But Dark Sun you'd instantly know was different. To me the question is will it be the Dark Sun of yesteryear? I think no. All the stuff in the players handbooks are going to be presented. That means you're going to get Dragonborn, Dwarves, Elves, Eladrins, Humans, Halflings, Tieflings, Half-elves, Goliaths, Shifters, Half-orcs, Deva and gnomes. Along with all the classes and players handbook 1 and 2. Not to mention whatever comes up in the third players handbook.
It will NOT be the Darksun that has been seen in the past, it will be different. My guess is like Forgotton Realms, there is going to be an advance in the timeline.
Lets be honest, and I may get lynched for this, but almost all the other settings - Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Birthright, Ravenloft, they are all more similar than they are dissimilar.
I think Eberron and Ravenloft definitely stands apart in a similar way Dark Sun does from most fantasy settings (and Spelljammer), but I totally agree on the others.
Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Mystara, Birthright and Dragonlance are all slightly generic and similar.
We know there are four main power sources to be introduced... psionic, ki, elemental, and shadow. If you were to align these power sources with the campaign settings that would make the most practical use out of them, you'd have:
Psionic: Eberron and Dark Sun
Eberron uses psionics for one main race (the kalashtar), Dark Sun uses the power source completely for pretty much every single character in the setting.
Elemental: Dark Sun & Kara-Tur
This of course is predicated on what they consider the elemental power source to be. If it's considered to be the power of the "land" so-to-speak, then both DS and KT traditionally have classes that would make use of this. KT has the sohei, which are elemental casters; DS has defilers and preservers, who absorb the earth's energy to power their abilities.
Ki: Kara-Tur & Birthright
I do not believe the ki power source is being thought of in a strictly Asian context, because it would not behoove WotC to pigeonhole a single power source to a single campaign setting. If we continue the assumption that "ki" is the power "within a person" that many have assumed (a kind of repurposed Incarnum to a certain extent)... then (in additional to the obvious connection of ki to Kara-Tur), it could easily also align itself to the Birthright setting, where much of the character's powers came from their bloodlines. Whether it's the power of your blood or the power of your spirit, or however you want to look at it, "ki" comes from within you, and thus could easily be used for both settings.
Shadow: Domains of Dread / Ravenloft
As necromancy and its ilk are usable across pretty much all campaign settings, the Shadow power source might be the most universal (and thus least necessary) source to implement for any specific setting, other than for DoD/RL. Obviously for DoD/RL it'd be a requirement... but some/all of the four classes that would be found within the source would probably be easily adapted into any of the other settings in some form or fashion.
So what does any of this mean for the 2010 campaign setting (and by extension, the power sources found in PHIII)?
Since we know Eberron is our 2009 setting, and there is an entire race and continent that could use one of our four remaining power sources, it would be safe to assume that the Psionic source will probably be one of the three sources in PHIII (assuming of course PHIII follows the same pattern as I & II of four classes from one source, and two classes from two... although we shouldn't necessarily assume this pattern will be upheld). The question then we have to ask is whether Psionic is important enough over the other three sources to warrant the "four class" inclusion, rather than just the two. If the answer is "yes", then it would make the most logical sense for the next campaign setting to be the one that would use that power source to it's fullest degree. And that setting is Dark Sun.
If we extrapolate further... if Dark Sun thus becomes the campaign setting of 2010, we might go ahead and throw a pair of elemental classes into PHIII (not necessarily Defiler & Preserver, as those two classes might be a little too campaign specific to DS, but perhaps classes that might be adaptable to the DS needs). And if we go with two elemental classes, then perhaps we fill out the PHIII book by including two ki classes... which then sets the table for the Kara-Tur setting in 2011 (or late 2010), and whose setting sources would finish being filled with PHIV.
Obviously things are so up in the air, most of what I'm saying is probably just hot air as well... but if I take a logical look at it all, this would seem to make some sort of sense. The line-up of products would then look thus:
Eberron Campaign Setting in mid-2009
Player's Handbook III (with four psionic, two elemental, two ki) in late 2009
Dark Sun in early 2010
Kara-Tur in mid/late 2010
Player's Handbook IV (with two elemental, two ki, four shadow) in late 2010
DoD/Ravenloft or Planescape or Birthright in mid 2011
But Dark Sun you'd instantly know was different. To me the question is will it be the Dark Sun of yesteryear? I think no. All the stuff in the players handbooks are going to be presented. That means you're going to get Dragonborn, Dwarves, Elves, Eladrins, Humans, Halflings, Tieflings, Half-elves, Goliaths, Shifters, Half-orcs, Deva and gnomes. Along with all the classes and players handbook 1 and 2. Not to mention whatever comes up in the third players handbook.
Fortunately, Dark Sun has a ready-made, utterly canon means of including literally any race you can imagine: The Pristine Tower. Any and ALL potential races introduced in ANY campaign setting can be mechanically inserted into Dark Sun, with Athasian-appropriate fluff to fold it in properly. Tieflings might be connected to the plane of Fire rather than infernals. Devas might be with the plane of Air or Water or Sun (we don't yet know their mechanics), Goliaths with Earth, Shifters may have been incompletely changed by the Tower, and now they shift back and forth between physical states.
Gnomes, Half-Orcs, Orcs, Kobolds, etc, would likely not be included since they were Cleansed. However, they could very easily include some brief suggestions on how to include those races mechanically, with a different fluff. Again, go Pristine Tower, go!
Dragonborn could simply be Dray who have long since left Dregoth's influence (and the name Dragonborn makes even MORE sense in that context, woot ;)), Warforged could simply be ancient psionic constructs from the Green Age that have survived in isolation to the modern era, and so on.
But yes, I quite agree that the timeline will be advanced quite a bit, and the world pulled back to the brink of catastrophe. I have a feeling Dregoth, while being unable to become a GOD thanks to the rules in Athas, might have found a way to come back to life and thus finish his transformation into a fully-formed Dragon, thus becoming the new Dragon of Tyr. You still have the same number of city-states and sorcerer-monarchs, with Raam being long-since gone, but Eldaarich replacing it as a horrific Big Brother city-state (and Kurn looking to be a nearly-dead city-state, while housing a thriving city-state run by an avangion, but isolated from the world at large), and with Androponis ruling the Balican Senate from the Black, making him a whole different kind of dangerous. I would love to see my namesake, Tectuktitlay, back in full, having used his son in a horrible blood ritual to bring himself back from death (or revealing that his son was him the whole time, a contingency plan he set up long ago, whereby he breeds back-up bodies for himself periodically).
Free Tyr will probably be corrupted by a lengthy bout into mortally-run politics, and in grave danger, since it stands between the Tyr Region and the Kreen Empire. Oops. It's a way to show how brutal a city-state can be when run by mere mortals. You don't need a bleedin' sorcerer-monarch to be abused. In fact, in some ways, having a sorcerer-monarch might prove to be less painful, but the free citizens of Tyr will hear none of it. :D
Yeah. Dark Sun will still be a horribly brutal place, with little points of hope here and there, amidst a brutal, Darwinian world fueled by psionics and life-suppressing magic.
As for the other settings, yeah, a lot of them are indeed too similar to FR to introduce so soon afterwards. Greyhawk, Birthright, Mystara, and Dragonlance are all very much a classic fantasy world, not much different from the Realms overall, just in the details. Eberron, not so much. It is rather different, and non-traditional, which I like a lot.
Planescape and Ravenloft BOTH look like they are going to be in the Core rather than their own settings. Domains of Dread are already being inserted into the Shadowfell in Dragon Magazine. Therefore, I believe Ravenloft will be introduced as one such Domain of Dread in a super-adventure, rather than an entire campaign setting. Planescape is being hinted at, with the Mercykiller playtest. It is quite likely that Sigil and the rest of Planescape will be folded into Core, if not in the Manual of the Planes than somewhat soon afterwards. Sigil itself might be the focus of a the future product that includes the Mercykillers, yet not be a campaign setting.
I liked the 2E version of Ravenloft a lot. I didn't think it was overpowered at all, it just didn't lend itself well to the ultimate hero adventure. It was more hero in the shadows type stuff, where you had to avoid the ultimate evil until you were strong enough to take it on, or the corrupted hero seeking redemption. It was heavily evil, but didn't seem overpowered for what it was. I'd like to see a Ravenloft campaign book again, but, based on other posts, it seems like they are folding it in instead.
I think Eberron and Ravenloft definitely stands apart in a similar way Dark Sun does from most fantasy settings (and Spelljammer), but I totally agree on the others.
Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Mystara, Birthright and Dragonlance are all slightly generic and similar.
Don't get me wrong, I really like Eberron as a setting, but I still think it looks very much euro-centric fantasy like most fantasy out there. If you look through the books you will see character clad in heavy armour fighting others dressed as such, just as much as you see characters that aren't. Ravenloft is once again, very euro-centric what with the Bela Lugosi inspired Strahd Von Zarovich (sp). Look at all these settings and tell me how many non white characters there are. In Darksun, everyone has a tan and dresses very minimal. Heavy metal armour = death.
The point is to someone who is not familiar with the differences of each setting, they could look very similar. Dark Sun is very different from the above, not to mention much of the fantasy RPG settings out there. Dark Sun also lets a whole new slew of rules be printed in a new DMG/PHB for exhaustion, dehydration, starvation, breakable weaponry along with other things that are needed for the setting.
About the only thing I don't want to see in Dark Sun is the higher attributes and starting level and every single character having psionics.
My vote would be Mystara, but I would also love a Points of Light sourcebook
A Points of Life sourcebook would sort of defeat the point of PoL. The point is supposed to be a vague campaign world with some base assumptions that the designers can work with, but without making it so strong that DMs have to chunk the entire thing to do their own setting. Defining it in a sourcebook would just make it to specific to serve the latter goal well.
Don't get me wrong, I really like Eberron as a setting, but I still think it looks very much euro-centric fantasy like most fantasy out there.
I think Eberron flavor has more in common with American culture than European. The weapons and armor may be based on European tradition, but I don't think it would be correct to call Eberron "medieval European." Hell, even "medieval" is almost a misnomer.
As I have said before, I feel Eberron has more in common with a high-fantasized American folklore/pop-culture than with anything else. At the same time, I feel that Eberron could use (nay, make excellent use of) an injection of Asian or African influence (since it already has plenty of European and American influence).
I think Eberron flavor has more in common with American culture than European. The weapons and armor may be based on European tradition, but I don't think it would be correct to call Eberron "medieval European." Hell, even "medieval" is almost a misnomer.
As I have said before, I feel Eberron has more in common with a high-fantasized American folklore/pop-culture than with anything else. At the same time, I feel that Eberron could use (nay, make excellent use of) an injection of Asian or African influence (since it already has plenty of European and American influence).
I will agree with this. Eberron has been advertised as a setting based on Pulp stories and Film Noir, which are pretty deeply connected to particular eras of American pop culture (the latter more so than the former, I think). Eberron embodies ideas like "the Age of Exploration", "Gangsters", "Super-Corporations", "The Cold War", 'The Iron Curtain (of Riedra
)", "Modernization", "Pirates of the Caribbean" and countless other things that resonate much more strongly with the movies and serials made over the last century in the US than anything in medieval European history or folklore. It is certainly seen through a European Medieval fantasy lens and modified to fit classic fantasy tropes, but it is hardly stock fantasy.A Points of Life sourcebook would sort of defeat the point of PoL. The point is supposed to be a vague campaign world with some base assumptions that the designers can work with, but without making it so strong that DMs have to chunk the entire thing to do their own setting. Defining it in a sourcebook would just make it to specific to serve the latter goal well.
I know But perhaps one that focused on its history. I do like the idea behind much of the PoL setting
I know But perhaps one that focused on its history. I do like the idea behind much of the PoL setting
I think a Points of Light book would be neat. Not so much as a "campaign setting" so much as a reference for DM's to look at to get ideas for dungeon locales, interesting points of light or darkness, and the like. Most "fluff" based stuff being released by WotC already boosts the "assumed" PoL setting, so a book explaining the history of PoL would be really pointless, since WotC's plan with it seems to be that they only release "PoL" content that can easily be made unique by the DM in question.
I will agree with this. Eberron has been advertised as a setting based on Pulp stories and Film Noir, which are pretty deeply connected to particular eras of American pop culture (the latter more so than the former, I think). Eberron embodies ideas like "the Age of Exploration", "Gangsters", "Super-Corporations", "The Cold War", 'The Iron Curtain (of Riedra
I appriciate that! :D
But besides the "themes" you listed, which I fully agree with, I was actually talking about the cultures of Eberron itself. Most of Korvaire's (sp?) human culture is a lot like American culture. Not only are humans not native to that continent (like most Americans, except of course the Natives), but their standard of living and rights that they give to their citizens are a lot closer to American standards in the early 20th century than medieval-European standards. You also have the fact that a TON of races live in Korvaire (sp again?), and there are also a ton of religions, and all of these diverse groups interact in predictable ways: sometimes they cooperate, othertimes they fight. Which is REALLY different from the stock-medieval-European fantasy mindset.
You also have to consider the geographical analogs that each continent in Eberron holds with our own world. It could be said that Korvaire has similarities to North America, Xen'drik has commonalities with both South America and Africa, and Argonnessen is an analog in some ways to Europe.
So, while this is a kind of pointless point to make, I feel that it can really be said that Eberron, while having some characteristics of midieval-European fantasy, it neither fits well into the genre nor, if crammed into it, does it follow a majority of its conventions.
I appriciate that! :D
But besides the "themes" you listed, which I fully agree with, I was actually talking about the cultures of Eberron itself. Most of Korvaire's (sp?) human culture is a lot like American culture. Not only are humans not native to that continent (like most Americans, except of course the Natives), but their standard of living and rights that they give to their citizens are a lot closer to American standards in the early 20th century than medieval-European standards. You also have the fact that a TON of races live in Korvaire (sp again?), and there are also a ton of religions, and all of these diverse groups interact in predictable ways: sometimes they cooperate, othertimes they fight. Which is REALLY different from the stock-medieval-European fantasy mindset.
You also have to consider the geographical analogs that each continent in Eberron holds with our own world. It could be said that Korvaire has similarities to North America, Xen'drik has commonalities with both South America and Africa, and Argonnessen is an analog in some ways to Europe.
So, while this is a kind of pointless point to make, I feel that it can really be said that Eberron, while having some characteristics of midieval-European fantasy, it neither fits well into the genre nor, if crammed into it, does it follow a majority of its conventions.
TwinBahamut pretty much said what I was trying to get across, only better. The game still has a 'look' that is very similar to much of the other fantasy that is out there. You could easily drop a Forgotton Realms character into Eberron and vice versa and they would look like they fit into the world, while a Dark Sun character would be hard pressed to fit into either setting easily, they stand out.
Now if 99% of the fantasy looks similar, some settings no matter how different they are may be dismissed, but a setting that is different from most of the fantasy out there will stand out and maybe, just maybe draw in people that are bored of the the 'same old thing'. I'm talking about choosing a setting on a very superficial way. If you dig deep enough into any setting chances are you'll find something that you really enjoy and makes that setting stand out, but the visual style for many people is what draws them to that book.
As much as I know you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, it happens I know I am personally drawn to settings that stand out. They make me want to explore them.
Ravenloft is once again, very euro-centric what with the Bela Lugosi inspired Strahd Von Zarovich (sp).
Not really, that was just one domain of many (Barovia), there are other Euro-centric Domains, but Ravenloft was not Euro-centric, each Domain was different.
You had:
-Har Akir (sp?): Egyptian mummy action.
-Sri-Raji: Indian/rakshasa theme.
-Bluetspur: Alien, Mindlfayer (illithid) domain.
-Rokushima: Japanese Domain.
And many, many others.
Not really, that was just one domain of many (Barovia), there are other Euro-centric Domains, but Ravenloft was not Euro-centric, each Domain was different.
You had:
-Har Akir (sp?): Egyptian mummy action.
-Sri-Raji: Indian/rakshasa theme.
-Bluetspur: Alien, Mindlfayer (illithid) domain.
-Rokushima: Japanese Domain.
And many, many others.
Yet if one Googles images for Ravenloft one sees more imagas of Bela.. err, I mean Strhad than mummies, Rakshasas mindflayers or anything Japanese. C'mon, the cover to the ravonloft campaign setting even has Bela.. sorry again, Strahd on the cover.
If you look at the setting without delving deeper, such as perusing it in a store, the first thing most people are going to think upon looking at Ravenloft is 'Oh, look it'd Dracula' The 'setting' is named after castle Ravenloft, Strhad's castle. So the first look at Ravenloft is European inspired fantasy.
So the first look at Ravenloft is European inspired fantasy.
You have a point, but still, the fact that is has the horror thing going separates it from the more standard fantasy campaigns settings (FR, GH etc).
TwinBahamut pretty much said what I was trying to get across, only better. The game still has a 'look' that is very similar to much of the other fantasy that is out there. You could easily drop a Forgotton Realms character into Eberron and vice versa and they would look like they fit into the world, while a Dark Sun character would be hard pressed to fit into either setting easily, they stand out.
...
As much as I know you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, it happens I know I am personally drawn to settings that stand out. They make me want to explore them.
I guess I don't understand what makes you think that Dark Sun is seen through a different lenses than Eberron and FR. I could see how it would be different from FR, to be sure, but Eberron? I know Dark Sun is far from traditional (like Eberron) but you still have Caucasian males running around everywhere, right? What do longswords look like? Do they poses a blade on either side, or are they folded-steel, single blade style like katanas? Are the deities of the realm philosophy and ancestry? Or are weapons primitive and relatively undeveloped, using only the local natural materials to create the stuff of war? Do the shamans of the villages channel the spirits of beyond to heal? I ask all these questions because I only have a superficial view of Dark Sun, and don't see what completely sets it appart (which judging by your argument should be obvious.)
... This argument is getting a little off track. What are we talking about again?
I ask all these questions because I only have a superficial view of Dark Sun, and don't see what completely sets it appart (which judging by your argument should be obvious.)
It's Road Warrior meets fantasy, as Troy Denning put it.
We are talking so much about Dark Sun that I start to wonder if WotC will help our wishs.
But I still suppose 2010 will be the year of Dragonlance.
TwinBahamut pretty much said what I was trying to get across, only better. The game still has a 'look' that is very similar to much of the other fantasy that is out there. You could easily drop a Forgotton Realms character into Eberron and vice versa and they would look like they fit into the world, while a Dark Sun character would be hard pressed to fit into either setting easily, they stand out.
That wasn't really what I was trying to get across...
After all, one of the stock PC types of Eberron is the Master Inquisitive, the ace private eye character taken straight out of hardboiled detective stories and Film Noir. Some other major archetypes are members of wealthy merchant houses and Indiana Jones derivatives. Eberron is a world of intrigue, exploration, and international Bond-like super-spies. The clothes characters wear may be similar between Eberron and the Forgotten Realms, but the characters themselves are incredibly different.
I can appreciate the fact that you like Dark Sun because it greatly diverges from traditional fantasy, but you have to understand that many people like Eberron for the exact same reason. They diverge in totally opposite directions from each other, but both are very different from basic vanilla fantasy.
But in each case, you have a Dark Lord who is very evil and crossed the line of Perdition, where one certain thing they've done is unforgivable. You have a land that tips the scales for evil. Danger is ever present, the people don't greet you as heroes, but as a new threat, no better than a marauding werewolf. The game should feel spooky, and there is little rest for your nerves...
I guess I don't understand what makes you think that Dark Sun is seen through a different lenses than Eberron and FR. I could see how it would be different from FR, to be sure, but Eberron? I know Dark Sun is far from traditional (like Eberron) but you still have Caucasian males running around everywhere, right?
I don't have the 1st boxed set with me, but it did describe everyone having sort of brown skin in the book. And many of the city states resemble certain non-European places, and those places that are more European resemble Southern Europe. I think the perception that everyone is Caucasian there comes from the art. In many ways the characters depicted there are much like the many versions of Sinbad on film where you have white actors playing the roles of Arabs.
It would be a 4th Ed of Lord of Madness: book of aberrations. I think there are some cool aberrations from 3rd Ed.
(Do you imagine "aberrations invade Ravenloft" "Stran Von Zarovich againts the cult of Thoon!!"?)
Oh, I believe that there will be a Lords of Madness book for 4ed. I just don't think they could make a whole book based on the Far Realm plane itself. Could you imagine the encounters therein?
Heroic tier: "You go insane!"
Paragon tier: "You go insane and your head explodes!"
Epic tier: "You go insane, turn inside out, then your head explodes!"
:P
Eberron - a sort of high-magic fantasy-punk, resonating with our high-tech world.
Forgotten Realms - the classic stereotypical fantasy world we all have in our mind. Relationships between nations and organizations drive the world.
Dark Sun - a blasted world, born out of the corrupted desire for power. The setting came out when acid rain, pollution, and nuclear disaster were (are) real threats. Now, climate change is on all our minds. Post-apocalyptic themes are reoccurring and strong, as a Man-vs-Nature themes.
Ravenloft - horror themes, the unknown, and being trapped. Horror and fear are common themes, and this setting takes it to a whole other level compared with other settings. We have all experienced fear.
Planescape and Spelljammer - exploration of the unknown, exotic locations and cultures. Again, the setting has a central theme that drives it. The "Star-Trek" of fantasy.
The other settings I am less familiar with, but I can't identify a strong theme. Mystara, Greyhawk (ignore nostalgia!), Birthright? Dragonlance is pretty classic fantasy - with extra dragons. Al'Qadim was different by the cultural reference, but it didn't have strong themes that players could relate to.
If I had my way I would vote with the majority here and get Dark Sun ASAP, a setting that was fun because it was an actual challenge. It felt different than any other setting you played in because you had to be circuspect with your magic and heroics. Unlike with most settings you didn't have the option of going into town to pick up supplies/magic items/potions. Nor could you be working for the king since he was pretty much guaranteed to be evil.
It was a world that embodied the conflict of Man vs. Nature, everything in Dark Sun wanted to kill you and most of it was more than capable of it. It made your accomplishments that much greater because you had overcome amazing odds to get the job done. Much more so than any other campaign setting, IMO.
Since my second favourite setting no longer exists at all (stupid Dragonborn crushing my continent) I would vote for Ravenloft as second, it was another setting where the heroes were heroic not because it was expected of them (as in FR, GH and EB) but in spite of the pervading feeling of the world. Your average person in Ravenloft was pretty apathetic and it takes a lot to be a hero, you really were unique if you went into the Mist to try and make things a little brighter.
Al'Qadim next I think, though since it was technically part of FR I doubt we will be seeing it anytime soon.
Has anyone considered that the setting books might be, at least in some way, dictated by the power sources released? Maybe we won't see Dark Sun until the year we get the Psionic source (2010 God willing) and maybe no Ravenloft until we see the Shadow source, Oriental Adventures waiting on Ki?
That idea puts me even more in the mind that we will get Dragonlance in 2010 since all the necessary power sources already exist. You can easily work around your missing clerics using the Primal source to fill some of those roles.
Thoughts?
I've... really got to know. What IS it about Dark Sun that fascinates people so? It feels like such a dead world, filled with repercussions up the wazoo ("okay, if I cast a spell, I demolish the landscape around me for eons!"), primitive weaponry with limited durability, extremely hostile environment and one basic power source. What is it that makes people love this setting so much?
It is completely unique, alien, and different for a D&D setting, or a roleplaying setting in general. It's what happens when those in power do horrible things for far too long. It shows what magic can do to an entire world if left unchecked, and controlled by the indiscriminate. It shows environmental catastrophe, through slow incrementations, starting with a beautiful, lush blue water world changed to a verdant green planet, eventually evolving into a desolate wasteland caused by many factors reaching a tipping point. It touches on a lot of subjects that are often taboo, but in a tasteful way. Ecological disaster, slavery, uncompromising invasion, biotechnological alterations of self and the world, thought crimes, bureaucracy out of control, oligopoly out of control, genocide, and much, much more.
And no, incidentally, humanoids, but especially humans, from the species-as-a-whole perspective, are effectively described as being in a permanent state of physical flux. Some humans have blue skin, some might have earholes, others odd-looking eyes, webbed feet and/or hands, odd horned and scaled bits here and there, and so on. Sure, some look more or less human, albeit dark-skinned due to a desert environment, and with the odd pale-skinned person here or there. But by and large, each person has some sort of unique psychic ability, however minor, and some odd physical aspect.
It is definitely my favorite D&D world, by quite a bit.
I think the best settings are ones that have strong themes and resonate with players in the real world.
Eberron - a sort of high-magic fantasy-punk, resonating with our high-tech world.
Forgotten Realms - the classic stereotypical fantasy world we all have in our mind. Relationships between nations and organizations drive the world.
Dark Sun - a blasted world, born out of the corrupted desire for power. The setting came out when acid rain, pollution, and nuclear disaster were (are) real threats. Now, climate change is on all our minds. Post-apocalyptic themes are reoccurring and strong, as a Man-vs-Nature themes.
Ravenloft - horror themes, the unknown, and being trapped. Horror and fear are common themes, and this setting takes it to a whole other level compared with other settings. We have all experienced fear.
Planescape and Spelljammer - exploration of the unknown, exotic locations and cultures. Again, the setting has a central theme that drives it. The "Star-Trek" of fantasy.
The other settings I am less familiar with, but I can't identify a strong theme. Mystara, Greyhawk (ignore nostalgia!), Birthright? Dragonlance is pretty classic fantasy - with extra dragons. Al'Qadim was different by the cultural reference, but it didn't have strong themes that players could relate to.
I think that's the reason why settings like Dark Sun or Planescape are being pushed for a remake - because of their unique feel. For instance, as mentioned above, FR and Eberron feel very different from each other (classical fantasy versus dungeonpunk).
Settings like Dragonlance or Greyhawk, while a part of D&D history, may not seem different enough from FR (it doesn't help that the three settings experienced quite a bit of crossover in the 2nd edition days). Attempting to retool the settings will probably not go over very well (judging from reactions to the changes that FR went through).
I've... really got to know. What IS it about Dark Sun that fascinates people so? It feels like such a dead world, filled with repercussions up the wazoo ("okay, if I cast a spell, I demolish the landscape around me for eons!"), primitive weaponry with limited durability, extremely hostile environment and one basic power source. What is it that makes people love this setting so much?
You got it in one...most of that is why I love it...
...Of course, with the limited class selection (Martial, Psi, and Elemental?) and all the special rules that might be necessary, it seems to me on a support-"core"-with-all-settings level that Dark Sun might be best suited to be liscenced to a 3PP, especially if only 1 setting comes out per year.
You got it in one...most of that is why I love it...
and why I don't like it. It's a crapsack world if ever there was one.
If the frontrunners are Dragonlance and Dark Sun, I'll definitely be stopping with Eberron. With DS being a colossally dark, hopeless wasteland and DL having kender and tinker gnomes, DO NOT WANT.
Dark Sun is not for me, so I will not purchase it if/when it comes out EXCEPT if there are additional classes/feats that I feel will fit into campaigns I run and maybe some monsters to boot. I'm sure there will be some Psionic based paraphernelia (sp?) that will intrigue my interest. Thank you for your viewpoints, everyone.
People have posted lots of reasons why Dark Sun is good. But another (and this goes for other settings too), is it isn't a "kitchen sink" setting like say FR. It knows what its theme is and what atmosphere it wants to deliver and sticks with it.
Do you care to elaborate, sigil_beguiler?
Okay, basically take FR. If you look at Sword Coast, Calimport, Thay, Underdark, etc. do they share any theme or connected atmosphere to them, ie; if you didn't know they were in the same world would you think they could exist in different settings.
Now things like Powers, do they seem to have no real connection to each other or the world. So yeah we got Divine, Arcane, Psionic, etc, etc, etc. in the world but they have no give and take, no mixing and matching, they exist completely separate of each other.
In setting like Dark Sun you can see the themes and atmosphere running throughout everything in the setting. You can see how different Powers effect the world and each other, etc.
Sure :P
Okay, basically take FR. If you look at Sword Coast, Calimport, Thay, Underdark, etc. do they share any theme or connected atmosphere to them, ie; if you didn't know they were in the same world would you think they could exist in different settings.
Now things like Powers, do they seem to have no real connection to each other or the world. So yeah we got Divine, Arcane, Psionic, etc, etc, etc. in the world but they have no give and take, no mixing and matching, they exist completely separate of each other.
In setting like Dark Sun you can see the themes and atmosphere running throughout everything in the setting. You can see how different Powers effect the world and each other, etc.
The downside to this is that it locks you into that particular kind of story. It makes it harder to diversify. Makes it a bit of a one-trick pony.
The downside to this is that it locks you into that particular kind of story. It makes it harder to diversify. Makes it a bit of a one-trick pony.
I dunno, look at WoD (just the core book) it has a central theme and atmosphere within it, but there is all kinds of stories you can tell.
I honestly don't know enough about Dark Sun to say what it might have to offer, but Dragonlance is much more similar to FR and Eberron, so I don't see where a campaign setting for it would be as helpful to players. The fluff is already out there, and Dragon articles are always an option for offering bits of crunch for all settings.
as for the sceduling id like to see a bi-quarterly release sechedule. say first quarter was the phx second quarter was darksun third quarter dmx fourth quarter new setting. withe alternating a new setting with a revised one or an expansion.
i fully expect planescape and spelljammer to be fused into the same setting with the phlogoston being replaced by sailing the astral sea. i aslo wouldnt be surprised if al qadim and kara ture were bunched into one book called realms forgotten.
One a year will help to extend the life cycle of the game I expect. For those people who are desperate for a specific setting you are always welcome to homebrew it or just fake it until the official comes out, if that isn't your thing then play a different setting for a bit. I know for me I can't stand the FR, though I am happier with the new setting then the 3E one. I am eagerly awaiting Dark Sun, Planscape, Al-Qadim,Spelljammer and Ravenloft but frankly I can do without Greyhawk, Dragonlance or Eberron since I feel that they A. got enough coverage in 3.x to be pretty easily translatable to the new system and B. are boring as all hell and aside from some window dressing don't offer much in the way of excitement or originality.
ps. I feel like I need to add that I loved Eberron's concept and was a huge fan of the core book but felt that the setting was ruined by the publishing of further setting material. The exciting thing, to me anyway, about Eberron was that it was a world full of mysteries and excitement and with each Secrets of X book they took away a few more of the potential hooks.
The downside to this is that it locks you into that particular kind of story. It makes it harder to diversify. Makes it a bit of a one-trick pony.
I will agree it is a little locked in, but not quite a one trik poney...defently limited though. However that also is good as a 3rd setting, or 4th or 5th...change of pace to break up multi similar ideas. FR, DL, Eb, GH are all so diverse you could easily tell the same story in each with onyl minnor twicks...You can't do that in Dark Sun...witch is bth good and bad.
The downside to this is that it locks you into that particular kind of story. It makes it harder to diversify. Makes it a bit of a one-trick pony.
I utterly disagree. Some city-states are intrigue-heavy, others are more standard. There are the slavery storylines to explore, from within the cities, to the slave tribes fighting for survival and living freely in the wilds. There are, of course, the desert wasteland adventures and that entire realm of survival stories. There is the merchant societies with economic adventures and/or protecting trade caravans from bandits. There is the ecological twists, with druids in the wilderness or preservers in the cities. There are ancient secrets and ruins everywhere. There are alien societies of many different types. You have the silt sea with pirate-like groups and wading giants living on the isles therein, undersilt dangers akin to kraken and much more, where the "seas" aren't places where you can float to survival, but instead sink like a rock if you fall overboard. There are the wars between the elements, in a literal sense, where air and earth are at war, fire and water are at war, and alliances build and dissolve endlessly. There are thought police forcing peace in an egalitarian society, coupled with underwater dangers. There is a city locked down and controlled by paranoia and fear, purposefully isolating itself and keeping its citizens trapped inside fraught with intrigue. There are alien societies of highly-intelligent insects living in massive hives on the scale of empires.
All of that, just in The Age of the Sorcerer-Kings.
Go back a bit further, and you have a World War setting in The Cleansing Wars, with armies of humans bent on genocide rampaging around the world, wiping out race after race after race. as the world itself crumbles around them becoming the desert world most are familiar with as far as the setting goes.
Still further, and you have The Age of Magic, with the beginnings of the ecological questions arising, as some explore the magic of life, while others twist that magic and FEED off of life, using it as a resource, a fuel, to drive their societies or private research, as a classic fantasy world begins to go horribly awry. Magic and psionics sometimes work in harmony, sometimes at odds, setting up the future split, and setting up the advanced beings.
Back a littler further, and you are in The Green Age, being much more like the standard fantasy world, save the lack of gods and wizardly magics. Instead, those voids are filled with elemental priests and psionics, respectively, with new realms of new races popping up everywhere. An Eberron-like level of "technology" is sprouting up, as psionics become very advanced indeed, allowing for "computers" of sorts, mass communication, mass transit, and much more.
Go back further, and you have the water world of The Blue Age, with underwater dangers everywhere, biotechnological wonders everywhere, flying intelligent insects living in the same world, but little psionics in the halflings (psionics in the kreen, instead), and no magic to speak of. There are those growing life, and those trying to pervert life, who will near the end of that age cause the oceans to recede, and the world to change radically.
There is a LOT of variety on Athas. It is hardly just survival, wastelands, oppression, and so on. It is a very unique world, with a very unique history, and many, many avenues to explore, and secrets to be left unanswered for each DM to play with to their heart's content.
I will agree it is a little locked in, but not quite a one trik poney...defently limited though. However that also is good as a 3rd setting, or 4th or 5th...change of pace to break up multi similar ideas. FR, DL, Eb, GH are all so diverse you could easily tell the same story in each with onyl minnor twicks...You can't do that in Dark Sun...witch is bth good and bad.
I disagree with this as well. You can easily transport any story told in any campaign to a Dark Sun campaign, with Athasian-appropriate twists. The right city-state, or the right wilderness setting, or the right Age, and any story can be dropped onto Athas, keeping the overall plot of the adventure the same, yet preserving the distinct flavor of the campaign setting.
On the other hand, Greyhawk, FR, Mystara, Birthright, all of those are effectively interchangeable. You can literally take a module from one, plop it into another, change just names, and not know the difference between the worlds overall. They are all castles and knights and wilderness and villages and towns connected by dirt and stone roads, with bands of orcs and goblins, dragons lording over their hoards, etc. Of those, Mystara at least has the Hollow World going for it. Greyhawk, Birthright and the Realms could easily be one setting, on different continents, and their would be little overall change.
Eberron is considerably more distinct, with the huge abundance of wide magic, everyone running around with magical timepieces, airships and lightning rails, mass communication devices, and so on. It has its own distinct feel, albeit not as distinct as Dark Sun. I like Eberron for this reason quite a bit more than most of the "traditional" high fantasy settings.
I personally believe the market is big enough to sustain an extra supplement from the two best selling setting franchises in D&D.
Further, I hate the fact that they are creating a Player's Guide and a Setting Guide. There should be nothing in a published setting's CS worth keeping from your players. If they wanted to know, they'd find out, or better yet they could stumble across the information in passing on forums and in conversations. Why print 2 books when you can save everyone, including WotC itself, money and print just 1 Campaign Setting? I mean heck, you could probably fill all the wasted space in the FRCS with all the information in the Player's Guide and still have lots of extra shiny unused white space left over.
If they did that, I would have no problem seeing other Campaign Settings coming out. I like Dark Sun & Dragonlance but I like FR and Eberron a whole lot more. I want to see more information on what I consider the core of D&D settings before we move on to the niche areas.
Once again, I don't mean to offend anyone, just speaking my mind concerning what I consider to be a failed business strategy.
Honestly, I'd rather they scrap all other campaign settings and release a single supplement for Eberron and FR each and every year. I know this will make fans angry but I honestly hate this 2 book policy. Its absurd to believe 2 books is all the masses want (especially 2 books that detail the same areas). Its also absurd to believe any campaign setting can sustain a new supplement every other month, like what was happening at the end of 3.5.
I know you hate the policy, but I think that WotC is onto something. With only two books they leave the world open so a DM can put in whatever he wants for what is not detailed. Also, don't forget, that the online E-Mags are also there to provide any additional info. And those involve a monthly charge. From a business standpoint, it makes sense since WotC is putting a lot of faith in the electronic/internet viability for distribution. Now, if WotC sold something like the Amazon Kindle, or you could get D&D books for that device I'd be all over that like the corpulent child on a fluffy frosting covered desert.
I personally believe the market is big enough to sustain an extra supplement from the two best selling setting franchises in D&D.
I won't disagree with this, however, as I stated earlier, WotC is putting a large emphasis on the E-mag for additional material. This is their current marketing strategy, and I think, a sign of how the market will change in the future.
Further, I hate the fact that they are creating a Player's Guide and a Setting Guide. There should be nothing in a published setting's CS worth keeping from your players. If they wanted to know, they'd find out, or better yet they could stumble across the information in passing on forums and in conversations. Why print 2 books when you can save everyone, including WotC itself, money and print just 1 Campaign Setting? I mean heck, you could probably fill all the wasted space in the FRCS with all the information in the Player's Guide and still have lots of extra shiny unused white space left over.
This is the only thing I completely disagree with you on. There are things that a player should not know. For example it should come as a surprise to every character that in Eberron, King Kaius is a Vampire. Now good players keep the metagaming down, but knowing the details of some of the setting that most players shouldn't know ruins some of the suspense and mystery of the world. I'll be honest I have not read that FRCG, simply because I don't ever want to run that setting, but I do play in it, much to my chagrin, so I would like to be surprised by who the villains are, and such. The idea of the players guide is to give the players info about the world that their characters would know, not that the player would know. Personally, I think this is a brilliant move.
If they did that, I would have no problem seeing other Campaign Settings coming out. I like Dark Sun & Dragonlance but I like FR and Eberron a whole lot more. I want to see more information on what I consider the core of D&D settings before we move on to the niche areas.
But just because you like something doesn't mean that everyone else will. Don't get me wrong I'm not a fan of Dragonlance, except for the minotaurs - which DDI has done for me, but Dark Sun offers a different type of fantasy world that some players, like myself admittedly, do enjoy. To my knowledge WotC, or any company for that matter, doesn't employ clairvoyants to forsee what products will or will not sell. Not that that would necessarily work, depending on your view of how time moves.
Once again, I don't mean to offend anyone, just speaking my mind concerning what I consider to be a failed business strategy.
Fair enough. My opinion differs, reading your post you didn't mention DDI at all, which I think plays heavily into WotC business strategy so I don't think you fully looked at what WotC do seem to be doing for said business strategy. You may disagree with it, but as I mentioned earlier, if WotC pulls this off with DDI and such that is, I suspect that many more companies will follow suit. After all, the PDF rpg supplement market came about because of the open game license and pretty much changed the industry. WotC is sort of following suit/hoping to change the industry even more. Believe me if I could afford an amazon kindle I'd buy it, I love the idea of being able to carry around a whole library of books on one little device. Reminds me of the PADDs on Star Trek. I don't want books to disappear, but for someone who spends a lot of time on movie sets/traveling this technology is great.
I'm betting heavily against Greyhawk any time in the near future. They gave the impression as Living Greyhawk came to an end, that they would not be supporting this setting for a while. The way it ended, it seemed like they would need to start a new era and totally rework the realm. This is just supposition on my part, but that's the way it felt while playing.
I liked the 2E version of Ravenloft a lot. I didn't think it was overpowered at all, it just didn't lend itself well to the ultimate hero adventure. It was more hero in the shadows type stuff, where you had to avoid the ultimate evil until you were strong enough to take it on, or the corrupted hero seeking redemption. It was heavily evil, but didn't seem overpowered for what it was. I'd like to see a Ravenloft campaign book again, but, based on other posts, it seems like they are folding it in instead.
There was talk of rebooting to 576 for Greyhawk, before the Wars, etc. That way they could redo everything, and I imagine make sure the end result is MORE Points of light than Greyhawk already is.
I would buy Darksun, but I could just as easily see Darksun as an adventure path in Dungeon with accompanying Articles in Dragon and it would allow them to have a niche game that is awesome, and produce another game with wider appeal. The same goes for Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planesscape. I see Spelljammer and Planescape becoming a single setting, where you have to sail the Astral sea between ports, I mean planes. Each plane could be released as a new article with an accompanying adventure, with ties to other worlds through those adventures and articles.
But I am a bit of a Greyhawk fan (okay a huge one) and am currently running 4E in greyhawk, so I don't particularly care one way or the other. My game will go on
I am really hoping Wizards does a 4e DS in 2010. As has been pointed out, there are a number of happy omens that it will be so. Aside from the stuff in Dragon, there's the reprinting of the primary Dark Sun series of novels, the Prism Pentad.
Honestly, I'd rather they scrap all other campaign settings and release a single supplement for Eberron and FR each and every year. I know this will make fans angry but I honestly hate this 2 book policy. Its absurd to believe 2 books is all the masses want (especially 2 books that detail the same areas). Its also absurd to believe any campaign setting can sustain a new supplement every other month, like what was happening at the end of 3.5.
I had thought the same thing at first but then thought about a few things. If they just had the two products as print products and then followed up with stuff either in Dragon/Dungeon or produced quality PDFs akin to the old FR source-modules (like the original Waterdeep guide), I think I'd be happy. But then, I'm also all over PDFs rather than actual books more and more.
What is most likely?
Dragonlance.... (like we need Genero Fantasy 101..... please we have points of light already.)
For established campaign settings, that leaves Birthright, Darksun, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, and Mystara. Of these, only Darksun is not a "classic" medieval-type setting.
I imagine Greyhawk, Darksun and Dragonlance will be released. Maybe Mystara, if they emphasize the Hollow Earth concept. My guess is it will be in that order. I doubt Birthright will be remade. Whether they release Ravenloft, Planescape or Spelljammer in 2014-2016 will depend on how well the prior three (and 4th edition in general) sells. Eventually, they'll likely do a Points of Light Campaign Setting and Players' Guide as the last campaign setting set for 4th edition.
It seems to me that Planescape, Spelljammer and Ravenloft have been killed and eaten by Points of Light (which is not a bad thing). So I would not expect to see setting books for them. And FR and Eberron are either released or slated.
For established campaign settings, that leaves Birthright, Darksun, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, and Mystara. Of these, only Darksun is not a "classic" medieval-type setting.
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there are some Kara tor, Red steel, and Al quim fans that would like a word with you...
there are some Kara tor, Red steel, and Al quim fans that would like a word with you...
Kara Tur and Al Qadim are set in FR. Red Steel is set in Mystara. I don't think they are candidates for setting sets of their own.
Maybe 4th could do a book on settings based on real-world cultures. Kara Tur (Asian), Al Qadim (Arabian) and Red Steel (Mesoamerican) could be included in such a book. I think it unlikely, though.
Several of them have 'issues' with FR, and they haven't really warmed to Eberron yet (though I'm getting to them), and basically nobody in our group is interested in seeing Oriental Adventures or Greyhawk return.
I'd also like to see Spelljammer, but I think it will be a few years before we have a chance of seeing that comeback.
It seems to me that Planescape, Spelljammer and Ravenloft have been killed and eaten by Points of Light (which is not a bad thing). So I would not expect to see setting books for them.
/snip
So, Elements of Planescape, Ravenloft, and Spelljammer have been included into the base Points of Light setting. Here's my question though, are we going to see a full function supplement for these, perhaps not as a campaign setting book, but as a core setting supplement?
I want some Spelljammer action in my game.
I suspect anything else we get on these campaign settings will be in the magazines.
This led some in the audience to ask about Geyhawk and Dragonlance, and the panel said they hoped to present settings that were very different from each other. They said there isn't enough about Geyhawk or Dragonlance that is essentially different from Forgotten Realms to warrant releasing one of them in the near future. They were careful not to say those books wouldn't be coming, but I think there wasn't much enthusiasm for these from the panel.
The differences in these settings are subtle and nuanced, I believe WotC wants to bring in setting that have a very distinct difference from the classic fantasy settings. Based on this, my speculation is we will see Dark Sun after Eberron, with Ravenloft, Spelljammer, or Planescape likely contenders, with a few new settings mixed in for good measure. Even Kara Tur, Al Quadim or Red Steel seem more likely than Geyhawk, Dragonlance or Mystara.
That said, here is what I would like to see...
Have a rotation: One conceptually/thematically unique setting (Spelljammer, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape), one culturally unique setting (Kara Tur, Al Quadim, Maztica), one new setting (this water world, one of the other fianlists), and one traditional fantasy setting (Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara). Thus every 4th setting (every 2 years?) they would run through the cycle and repeat. There's no way to make everyone happy, but this would probably satisfy the majority.
On an unrelated note, I have noticed that no one has mentioned Birthright yet. I have never read any material for it myself, but I have been curious about it for a while. It came to mind a few days ago because I was playing Samurai Warriors 2: Empires, and got into a mass battle/political strategy/nation ruling kind of mood. I wouldn't mind seeing a version of Birthright or something loosely based on it appear in 4E.
However, so far we have yet to see any powers from the Elemental source, while books are beginning to get seeded with Shadow. Shadow, therefore, seems a bit more likely for PHB3. If it is, then Dark Sun isn't possible, and it will likely be another setting, possibly even an entirely new one.
Whether Dark Sun comes soon or not depends largely on the contents of PHB3. PHB3 has to include monks and psions, or fans will be rather upset. That means it needs to have ki and psionics as power sources. If there's a third new power source, then for Dark Sun to work it has to be Elemental.
However, so far we have yet to see any powers from the Elemental source, while books are beginning to get seeded with Shadow. Shadow, therefore, seems a bit more likely for PHB3. If it is, then Dark Sun isn't possible, and it will likely be another setting, possibly even an entirely new one.
You mean sort of like how Eberron needs Psionics to be in the PHB2 since Psionics is a large part of the campaign(or so I hear)?:P
I am hoping for an Oriental Adventures setting or something completely new.
Yeah im hoping something new as well... like an African one... i hope i didnt offend any one with this...
and why I don't like it. It's a crapsack world if ever there was one.
If the frontrunners are Dragonlance and Dark Sun, I'll definitely be stopping with Eberron. With DS being a colossally dark, hopeless wasteland and DL having kender and tinker gnomes, DO NOT WANT.
Actually to me darksun is about HOPE, yes the setting is currently dark, but there is hope in the future, ie the pcs and others who search for a way to make things better. Also the lack of gods, everything in the world has been done by mortals thus mortals can undo what others have done.
Reason I always hated dragonlance is that no one seems to be working for the greater good of the world, every race is working for its own goals, the evil gods have way too much power.
Would love to see Spelljammer again, or an expanded Planescape. Love Al'Quadim too.
As for which it will be? No idea. A new world that does something different would be great (Heck, I only use the official campaign settings for their crunch, I have my own established setting).
Whatever, as long as there are groovy monsters, powers and items, I'm happy :D
Praying it's not Darksun - great place to visit, dull place to live...unless they open the world up a bit; remove the dimensional restrictions, and work in some varied environments...maybe after a vast psi-arcane catastrophe (keep the Mad Max style survival feel, but get rid of a lot of the desert and dragon kings and templar dullness)
Sacralige...Darksun 4ever....
Sacralige...Darksun 4ever....
If they do darksun I would like them to reinvision it in some way. Much like what they did with forgotten realms.
I am also all for settings fitting easily within the boundries of the "Core" setting, but I honestly think that what changes are made should be kept to a minmum.
For instance, I know that the 13 other planes of existence play a very important part in Eberron (because they coincide with the 13 moons and the 13 Dragonmarks, and therefore the Draconic Prophecy.) Because Eberron always had its own cosmology (and never really adopted the "core" one), I would feel it would be a really bad move of WotC to cause some "event" to happen so that Eberron started to follow the "rules."
Similarly, I am sure Dark Sun has scertain concepts (like what defines "Arcane" magic) that would completely change how the setting worked if it were changed just to fit into "Core."
While I am in favor of making classic and popular worlds more viable for a larger audience, I have to say that I am against "changes" that might completely ruin the unique way that world works.
I think for the most part that much of preserveer/defiler delineation will be entirely flavor. Preservers will draw a small amount of energy from a large radius while defilers will give everyone stomach pains and make plants wilt. There will likely be paragon paths that mechanically emphasis the difference, however, and i can easily imagine a paragon defiler using powers similar to the dark pact warlock; using hp from his allies to increase his spell power.
For instance, I know that the 13 other planes of existence play a very important part in Eberron (because they coincide with the 13 moons and the 13 Dragonmarks, and therefore the Draconic Prophecy.) Because Eberron always had its own cosmology (and never really adopted the "core" one), I would feel it would be a really bad move of WotC to cause some "event" to happen so that Eberron started to follow the "rules."
Would you be happier if instead they skip the event and just change the cosmology? Because that basically is what they have said they will be doing.:P
Why, praytell, do you think WotC wants to add new settings?
Given the current model for settings books (3 and done), as well as the PoL model ("No fluff outside an adventure"), WotC seems to be very uninterested in new settings.
At DDXP last year the designers said that a new campaign setting would appear for 4e. So give it time...
Mike
At DDXP last year the designers said that a new campaign setting would appear for 4e. So give it time...
Mike
In that case thats the one I want to see for 2010, and then darksun for 2011. I may be in the vast minority but I never want to see dragonlance or grey hawk.
I would be most likely to pick up a Greyhawk or Dragonlance setting. But I prefer to play in my own campaign setting.
Why grey hawk or dragonlance?
Every time I look at dragonlance it seems like the evil gods gain more power, and then making a former paladin of takhisis a main character in some of the current novels, no thanks Ill pass on that setting. If I want an evil setting Ill play ravenloft.
Would you be happier if instead they skip the event and just change the cosmology? Because that basically is what they have said they will be doing.:P
Maybe... Changing the setting to one-moon only is gonna kinda suck. Same with the planes. So long as they tie the Dragonmarks BACK to the cosmology somehow, I think I will be fine.
I would actually almost like some kind of event to happen to Eberron. Like maybe someone in Xen'drik got that ancient machine working again and blew up the rest of the moons... IDK, something that would make sense.
im thinking now that its probably Greyhawk cause it is mentioned in Draconomicon... well that or Dragonlance...
Ugh no please please no. If they reprint those I may have to switch to another rpg entirley, I hate them that much.
I think both settings would work beautifully with the defined scope of magic in 4E. Dragonlance Robed wizards are a natural for 4E. And the psionic types need a decent playbox this time around. One thing 3.5 did well is psionics. They expanded it via implements and kept it on theme. But they didn't fit well into the basic settings.
Keep the 5th age style Kenders and you are gold.
If they release a Dragonlance or Greyhawk product, I won't be buying it. Worst two settings ever... blach. Yuck.
You have that right but lets just say I disagree with you on Dragonlance and call it a day. (Especially since I have some choice opinions about some rather popular settings that seem to be beloved by many on this board).
They already reinvisioned the Draconians for the base game so I don't think Dragonlance as a setting is far behind.
If they release a Dragonlance or Greyhawk product, I won't be buying it. Worst two settings ever... blach. Yuck.
Agreed. Dragonlance has way too many interfering dieties for my taste, and when they made a former paladin of takhisis a main character in some of the newer books, no thanks Ill pass shes evil and should have died the death of a tyrant. There is nothing good about dragonlance.
Agreed. Dragonlance has way too many interfering dieties for my taste, and when they made a former paladin of takhisis a main character in some of the newer books, no thanks Ill pass shes evil and should have died the death of a tyrant. There is nothing good about dragonlance.
Now that is just a bit over the top yes? Besides I never read novels about RPG's so your "problem" with the setting means nothing to me. I make my own stories not remakes of some writer I don't know. Maybe that is why the rule/setting junkies hated my Rokogun game? But my players loved it?
The setting is there for a framework so I don't have to homebrew a setting wholecloth, not a mandate to slavishly follow in Nazi style lockstep goosestep marching. By the way even though 4E tries to make it NPC there are evil Paladins and once classes based on the Shadow and books like Open Grave are published it will be child's play to reverse engineer a Dark Paladin for anybody.
I won't let them in my game but they will be doable.
Now that is just a bit over the top yes? Besides I never read novels about RPG's so your "problem" with the setting means nothing to me. I make my own stories not remakes of some writer I don't know. Maybe that is why the rule/setting junkies hated my Rokogun game? But my players loved it?
The setting is there for a framework so I don't have to homebrew a setting wholecloth, not a mandate to slavishly follow in Nazi style lockstep goosestep marching.
Guly dwarves,tinker gnomes, and kender worsed races ever. I prefer semi serious campaigns and the two times a dm ran dragonlance it was a disaster, between the dm running gully dwarves a tinker gnome who blew us up, and a kender who continously stole everything no thanks Ill pass.
Guly dwarves,tinker gnomes, and kender worsed races ever. I prefer semi serious campaigns and the two times a dm ran dragonlance it was a disaster, between the dm running gully dwarves a tinker gnome who blew us up, and a kender who continously stole everything no thanks Ill pass.
You really should look into the 3.5 remake. Lighten it up a bit, and it is the solid setting that was needed for the actual reason of being so well loved. The setting appeals to people (mostly women) that like Romanticism in their High Fantasy. The reason why Dragonlance will be published is the same reason why White Wolf exists. The setting appeals to women more than men in general, and we women have money too.
Kick Kenders and Tinker Gnomes (all gnomes for that matter), and Gully Dwarves to the curb already. They are not needed for the actual setting. Tassalhoff is replaceable trust me. The draw is the basics, two brothers, one light one dark fighting over a girl, classic story fodder. And dragons never hurt in a fantasy story.
The neat thing about the setting is the division of magic, be it Arcane/Divine/Martial, it is tailor made for 4E. Next time I hear FR is the same as DL I will scream. DL has FAR more in common with Dark Sun than Forgetten Realms. Forgotten Realms is there for the DM with no clue, it is a kitchen sink setting.
Al Quidim? Kara Tur? Who needs it given they are part of Forgotten Realms with no heavy lifting. Now Msytara (Hollow World) has serious possibilities.
You really should look into the 3.5 remake. Lighten it up a bit, and it is the solid setting that was needed for the actual reason of being so well loved. The setting appeals to people (mostly women) that like Romanticism in their High Fantasy. The reason why Dragonlance will be published is the same reason why White Wolf exists. The setting appeals to women more than men in general, and we women have money too.
Kick Kenders and Tinker Gnomes (all gnomes for that matter), and Gully Dwarves to the curb already. They are not needed for the actual setting. Tassalhoff is replaceable trust me. The draw is the basics, two brothers, one light one dark fighting over a girl, classic story fodder. And dragons never hurt in a fantasy story.
The neat thing about the setting is the division of magic, be it Arcane/Divine/Martial, it is tailor made for 4E.
Romantascism in dragonlance? Please explain I didnt see any all I saw was a world where mortals did not matter the gods and dragons were always interfering. I like romantasism in a setting and personally have always prefered homebrewed settings to anything else. The dragonlance we played was 3.5.
When I looked at it was the most cliched images of most of the races imaginable. I like settings that reinvision some of the races and the like. Though I love the new realms not so much a fan of old forgotten realms but I love what they did to it in 4e.
Doesnt Ebaron have romanatscism in it or no?
Romantascism in dragonlance? Please explain I didnt see any all I saw was a world where mortals did not matter the gods and dragons were always interfering. I like romantasism in a setting and personally have always prefered homebrewed settings to anything else. The dragonlance we played was 3.5.
When I looked at it was the most cliched images of most of the races imaginable. I like settings that reinvision some of the races and the like. Though I love the new realms not so much a fan of old forgotten realms but I love what they did to it in 4e.
Doesnt Ebaron have romanatscism in it or no?
I see. The 3.5 version of Dragonlance is dark as well, DARK. But it was an overreaction to the Romanticism of the base setting. There is a middle ground that is easy to achieve without throwing the bathwater out with the baby. That is what I see them doing it in a year or two. Given it is a fact that DL appealed to women far more than men. WotC isn't a stupid company....follow me yet?
I can't say anything about Eberron given I never played or ran it, it seems Fantasy/Punk to me given my quick read of it, is that offbase? (Tattoo magic and steamships).
I agree with you about the 4E Forgotten Realms though, loads of fun, anytime you can play a Drow or Genasi and be balanced with the rest of the party it is good times, the earlier versions? Not for me.
Looking at the shadowfel and the Domains of Dread Ravenloft has been integrated into core, Looking at the Manual of the Planes as a whole planscape has as well. Spelljammer while a great setting (my favorite), is likely to see nothing more than it already has in the manual of the planes sadly. What does that leave, Mysteria, Dragonlance, Birthright, Greyhawk, and god forbid Council of Wyrms sees a 4e tome. Everything else is a part of another setting if I'm not mistaken. Odds are Dragonlance will be next in 2010, as it, FR, and ebberon, and dragonlance are the 3 big ones in the novel world. If its dark sun we may see the psion in the dark sun players guide like we saw the swordmage in the fr version, but I doubt it'll be dark sun personally dragonlance is more popular as a whole. 2011 may see darksun, or perhaps something new, its possible, beyond that it I'm hoping greyhawk returns but thats just a hope.
I agree with your train of logic but I have a question. Why do you like Greyhawk as a setting and not just as the assumed baseline? I would rather they give us totally new settings after or before DL, DS, Eberron, and maybe Msytiria.
It would make sense to do DL, DS, Eberron and Mysteria before giving us totally new settings from a business sense though.
I agree with your train of logic but I have a question. Why do you like Greyhawk as a setting and not just as the assumed baseline? I would rather they give us totally new settings after or before DL, DS, Eberron, and maybe Msytiria.
It would make sense to do DL, DS, Eberron and Mysteria before giving us totally new settings from a business sense though.
Not necassarly. Frankly since I liked the reinvisioned realms I really want to see what they do with totally new material. Grey Hawk is the only one I would never buy. Dragonlance depends on if they kept kender and gully dwarves, oh and the stuck up elves that hate everybody. I also never understood why dwarves and elves did not get along. Frankly I want to see a totaly new setting with new original ideas.
I agree with your train of logic but I have a question. Why do you like Greyhawk as a setting and not just as the assumed baseline? I would rather they give us totally new settings after or before DL, DS, Eberron, and maybe Msytiria.
It would make sense to do DL, DS, Eberron and Mysteria before giving us totally new settings from a business sense though.
Well besides needing Greyhawk, FR, and Dragonlance to even have a prayer at seeing a 4e spelljammer setting (as those three are the big spheres introduced in the introduction to spelljammer boxed set), well unless they replace greyspace with what ever ebberon would be. I just like the big names you can run into in greyhawk, where else can you find Bigby and Tenser and quite a number of others. I agree given that spells can't be picked up when you find them like in previous editions meeting the big name wizards isn't what it used to be but still there was always something about it. Oerth is always a fun place to go adventuring if you ask me.
Well besides needing Greyhawk, FR, and Dragonlance to even have a prayer at seeing a 4e spelljammer setting (as those three are the big spheres introduced in the introduction to spelljammer boxed set), well unless they replace greyspace with what ever ebberon would be. I just like the big names you can run into in greyhawk, where else can you find Bigby and Tenser and quite a number of others. I agree given that spells can't be picked up when you find them like in previous editions meeting the big name wizards isn't what it used to be but still there was always something about it. Oerth is always a fun place to go adventuring if you ask me.
Wait those people were alive in previous edditions? I always assumed they had died or whatever. To me grey hawk is way too generic. Settings should be unique and should do something unique. If a setting does not reinvision the races, or how they interact, or have some kinda new mechanic or really really good stories then it does not need a setting book.
Al Qadim could be made apart from FR it wouldn't take much (given that I don't think they did anything at all with it in the last eight years or more?), heck you could even say Maztica got blasted into another realm of existence so it too can be apart from FR.
They think it's an option because they think it will sell. Personally I think most gamers are more than a little tired of genero euro fantasy 101. They want -new- or -different- worlds to explore. Not just a change in map scenery with the same old things drove into the dirt over and over again.
Eberron would not be nearly as popular as it is, if gamers wanted more of the same.
It's likely that Dark Sun could very well be the next world up in the line up. (also given that wotc just recently repurchased the rights and all that jazz) And by and large if I honestly had to say it. I'd say Dark Sun is the largest non Eberron, nor FR market. Take care of the Big Three first. Then the others will probably be coming. (Hopefully "Water World" is after Dark Sun, or Al Qadim... could do Maztica as well)
My guess is 2010. Dark Sun
2011: providing they actually do something with it, the hollow world. If not, maybe "Water World"?
2012: Al Qadim?
2013: Spelljammer?
Guly dwarves,tinker gnomes, and kender worsed races ever. I prefer semi serious campaigns and the two times a dm ran dragonlance it was a disaster, between the dm running gully dwarves a tinker gnome who blew us up, and a kender who continously stole everything no thanks Ill pass.
that setting destroyed small races for me...up intill 3.5 when hafling and gnome again started to win me over...
Tinker gnomes and Kenders are great for books...I have NEVER seen one played like they are in the books...most kenders (worst offenders) I have seen should have had chaotic evil for alignment and 3 for there wisdom...
Seriously. I still don't get why people still think that Dragonlance or Greyhawk are even an option for 2010! The company has clearly stated that whatever is chosen, it will not be a generic European fantasy 101 game. That clearly rules out Dragonlance and Greyhawk.
god I hope you are right...
Last year at Gen Con I was in a seminar with Bill Slavicsek, Mike Mearls, James Wyatt and some other WotC staffers. The question of what campaign setting they would like to see came up, and 4 out of the 5 mentioned Dark Sun, so I'd say that is an almost sure bet. The other said he'd rather see a new setting than one of the old ones and described an ocean world full of pirates and small islands. So I wouldn't be surprised to see some new settings interspersed among the old.
Getting my info from the forums.
I've heard "Water World" mentioned before this thread but I don't remember where I read that information.
Last year at Gen Con I was in a seminar with Bill Slavicsek, Mike Mearls, James Wyatt and some other WotC staffers. The question of what campaign setting they would like to see came up, and 4 out of the 5 mentioned Dark Sun, so I'd say that is an almost sure bet. The other said he'd rather see a new setting than one of the old ones and described an ocean world full of pirates and small islands. So I wouldn't be surprised to see some new settings interspersed among the old.
This led some in the audience to ask about Geyhawk and Dragonlance, and the panel said they hoped to present settings that were very different from each other. They said there isn't enough about Geyhawk or Dragonlance that is essentially different from Forgotten Realms to warrant releasing one of them in the near future. They were careful not to say those books wouldn't be coming, but I think there wasn't much enthusiasm for these from the panel.
Interesting...
“The Hazards of Dark Sun” article Dragon 364 page 66 was very interesting to me as a DM.
It had things in it that I could add to any game.
This makes me feel that a DM guide on Dark Sun could be very handy for my Eberron games.
It noteworthy that the D&D magazines have put out Forgotten Realm articles, Eberron articles, and one Dark Sun article.
Have any other worlds been in the D&D magazines?
New Channel Divinity Feats with elemental powers would easily bring an elemental feel to the Clerics (and Invokers) of Dark Sun.
One or two other feats that are well thought out would help a lot.
This would bring new interesting option for clerics, and it would bring a few new Elemental Type Paragon Path for Clerics (and Invokers) into the game.
They could introduce the elemental source right along with the book and feature one or two elemental classes inside the player’s handbook.
A pirate/ocean adventure world could lead to rules for ships, water type monsters/dragons, and lots of other cool additions that can be used in any setting.
Some Ravenloft and Planescape info has been released via DDi as well.
Didnt manual of the planes take care of those? Though I wouldnt mind seeing some adventure modules and such for those areas.
I like the water world idea or darksun. Oh and could someone tell me what Al quadim is?
Didnt manual of the planes take care of those? Though I wouldnt mind seeing some adventure modules and such for those areas.
I like the water world idea or darksun. Oh and could someone tell me what Al quadim is?
Take Arabian Nights (or Aladdin), combine with Prince Of Persia = Al Qadim.
To sum it up as best as I understand it. I've not read Al Qadim but to say I'm a firm supporter of that concept is an understatement of epic proportions.
There is a middle ground that is easy to achieve without throwing the bathwater out with the baby.
...why're you throwing out the baby but keeping the bathwater?
Some Ravenloft and Planescape info has been released via DDi as well.
Didnt manual of the planes take care of those?
Planescape? To a certain extent. But Ravenloft? Not even close. It talked about Domains of Dread which exist in the Shadowfell for three paragraphs and that was pretty much it. And it certainly didn't even mention the Demiplane of Dread, which is different than several smatterings of domains in the Shadowfell here and there. We didn't get Barovia, Sithicus, Darkon, Dementlieu, Borca, etc.
As for the 2010 setting, I suspect it will be Dark Sun, to coincide with the PHB3 which'll probably have psionics. I imagine we'll see a bunch of monsters which originated in Dark Sun appearing in the MM3, as well. I just wish they'd bring back Ravenloft mostly as it was. It's European, sure, but it's markedly different from Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc, in that it's a gothic horror setting. I'd love to see its return, but sadly, I doubt it'll ever happen. Or if it does, that it'll return in such a way that I'd be happy with the finished result.
...why're you throwing out the baby but keeping the bathwater?
Planescape? To a certain extent. But Ravenloft? Not even close. It talked about Domains of Dread which exist in the Shadowfell for three paragraphs and that was pretty much it. And it certainly didn't even mention the Demiplane of Dread, which is different than several smatterings of domains in the Shadowfell here and there. We didn't get Barovia, Sithicus, Darkon, Dementlieu, Borca, etc.
As for the 2010 setting, I suspect it will be Dark Sun, to coincide with the PHB3 which'll probably have psionics. I imagine we'll see a bunch of monsters which originated in Dark Sun appearing in the MM3, as well. I just wish they'd bring back Ravenloft mostly as it was. It's European, sure, but it's markedly different from Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc, in that it's a gothic horror setting. I'd love to see its return, but sadly, I doubt it'll ever happen. Or if it does, that it'll return in such a way that I'd be happy with the finished result.
After reading the Manual of the Planes (specifically the Shadowfell chapter), and seeing the current strategy of multiple books per title (PH1, 2, 3, 4, etc.), I can see future MotP's which are dedicated in more detail to the planes of existence. I do not think they will do a book per plane, but I can definitely see MotP2 being Feywild/Shadowfell (which would have expanded DoD info), MotP3 being Astral Sea or Astral/Elemental, and so on. It is just a theory, of course, and the fact that the Feywild and Shadowfell were as detailed as they were in the MotP might suggest that that is all we are getting for them, but I doubt it - it seemed mostly like teaser fluff. Now, granted, I loved the fluff in there - as I was reading plot hooks were sprouting in my mind left and right, but I think we will see more in the format described above.
In fact, I'd think it might be smart for Dark Sun to introduce some nifty psionics classes in advance of the PHB3. As responses in this group show, some people have a negative view of Dark Sun. Putting some crunchy new classes into the setting might encourage more people to buy the books.
As for dramatic changes to the setting, the designers have to walk a fine line. Obviously, a number of them really liked Dark Sun and will want to preserve what made it unique. At the same time, I don't think DS was a big seller and its reputation is controversial; a lot of people who never played it have come to think of it as a real downer...and they aren't necessarily wrong. I suspect the designers will try to shake up the setting and broaden it a little, while still trying to keep its distinctive flavor.
If Dark Sun is going to be the 2010 setting, and the PHB3 debuting 4e psionics, then Dark Sun might introduce a new psionic class or race not seen in the PHB3, but psionics as a whole will already have been released for about half a year.
With the positioning that WOTC has done with their "Dragonlance" licenses the last several months, I would not be surprised to see it as the 2010 campaign setting.
UGH I really really hope not. From what Ive heard Al Quadim or Darksun or perferably an entirley new setting would work best for me.
But I'd really prefer a totally new campaign so that 4e doesn't corrupt my nostalgia. If you run a famous singer through an autotuner it tends to have a negative reaction from the fans, but when you run a virtual nobody through one, the fans might not notice it, simply because they've never heard the singer not use one.
Let's get real here. Dark Sun had all those wonderful thematic elements and flavor. But Dark Sun was really about playing brand new starting level characters that were 12-feet tall and had 24 natural strength and 80 hit points, who chose a new alignment every day, that could cast disintegrate, teleport, or domination without even being a psionicist or spellcaster (if you were lucky enough to roll those on the wild talent table). If you wanted you could replace that 12 feet tall and 80 hit points with 5 natural attacks (one of them poisonous), a sweet jump attack, and less need for water and sleep.
And if you were a psionicist, by 5th level (2 levels into the game) you could take your foes, capture them, and then use psychic surgery to permanently fate link them, dominate them, and render them permanently amnesiac. It was NOT about game balance. It was about power gaming. It was DESIGNED for power gaming.
I don't like 4e and I have very fond memories of 2e. Don't get me wrong, 4e is a good system, but it's not for me.
I don't like 4e and I have very fond memories of 2e. Don't get me wrong, 4e is a good system, but it's not for me.
Then why worry about them re-releasing an old setting for those of us who love 4e and think it would make a great platform for old 2e campaign settings? I mean, 4e is not for you anyway... so who cares what you think? It sounds like you were not likely to purchase books anyways. But, those of us who love 4e, and are purchasing books, seem to really want to see some of these old settings re-released.
Then why worry about them re-releasing an old setting for those of us who love 4e and think it would make a great platform for old 2e campaign settings? I mean, 4e is not for you anyway... so who cares what you think? It sounds like you were not likely to purchase books anyways. But, those of us who love 4e, and are purchasing books, seem to really want to see some of these old settings re-released.
I want both actually, a reinvisioned old setting note not just a rehashing of everything that was in it but a new take on the core ideas of the old setting to go with the new eddition, or an entirley new setting. The waterworld sounds good, Im personally working on a setting baced on the Magic the gathering setting during the Ice Age, just read the comics set in that time and the books, obviously its not going to be exact no colors and what not, but a few bastions of civilization in mostly a sea of ice with barbarian tribes and what not howling outside, oh and humans in the setting Im developing have backslid to almost prehistoric tech.
Perhaps, Clerics could be able to chose between:
Channel Divinity
and
Channel Elements
Then throw in a group of elemental cleric prayers just like what is in the FRPG on pages 35-40 did for the Warlock with their Dark Pact options. It would only take 6 pages and would open the cleric class to a whole new viewpoint.
That leaves room for a complete new psionics class and something else like an elemental multiclass similiar to the Spellscarred.
Next comes the Paragon Paths with Dark Sun versions of the different classes and so forth...
For Dark Sun:
Perhaps, Clerics could be able to chose between:
Channel Divinity
and
Channel Elements
Then throw in a group of elemental cleric prayers just like what is in the FRPG on pages 35-40 did for the Warlock with their Dark Pact options. It would only take 6 pages and would open the cleric class to a whole new viewpoint.
That leaves room for a complete new psionics class and something else like an elemental multiclass similiar to the Spellscarred.
Next comes the Paragon Paths with Dark Sun versions of the different classes and so forth...
That would be pretty freaking cool, Id also like to see some survival oriented rules and such for dealing with desert a little more, maybe a more fleshed out hazards of darksun sort of thing. As well as a racial write ups for Mul and TriKeen, cant have darksun without the crazy insectoids after all.
Planescape? To a certain extent. But Ravenloft? Not even close. It talked about Domains of Dread which exist in the Shadowfell for three paragraphs and that was pretty much it. And it certainly didn't even mention the Demiplane of Dread, which is different than several smatterings of domains in the Shadowfell here and there. We didn't get Barovia, Sithicus, Darkon, Dementlieu, Borca, etc.
Greenknight, I think you missed the point. There is no longer an "existence bubble" of Dread; in 4e development Ravenloft the demiplane of dread ambushed both the plane of shadow and the negative energy plane, took most of their usable stuff, ate well, changed its name to the Shadowfell and grew into a full sized plane of dread.
As to where our favorite domains are? Barovia and Castle Ravenloft will most likely be appearing with their darklord Strahd in Open Grave. Sithicus and Lord Soth and/or Sithicus' new master should appear together in the Shadowfell of a 4e Dragonlance. Borca, Dementlieu and their lords may get new write ups in Dragon magazine.
Greenknight, I think you missed the point. There is no longer an "existence bubble" of Dread; in 4e development Ravenloft the demiplane of dread ambushed both the plane of shadow and the negative energy plane, took most of their usable stuff, ate well, changed its name to the Shadowfell and grew into a full sized plane of dread.
As to where our favorite domains are? Barovia and Castle Ravenloft will most likely be appearing with their darklord Strahd in Open Grave. Sithicus and Lord Soth and/or Sithicus' new master should appear together in the Shadowfell of a 4e Dragonlance. Borca, Dementlieu and their lords may get new write ups in Dragon magazine.
If that's the case then it's a flaming ball of crap. Just the honest opinion of a long-term Ravenloft fan and someone who's (otherwise) a big fan of 4E. Personally, I don't see any reason they COULDN'T keep Ravenloft mostly as is. After all, they kept the demiplane concept. So why not keep the most famous demiplane of them all? Carving it up like a Christmas roast and splitting it up among the Shadowfells of countless worlds completely destroys what made that setting great.
Nah, Ravenloft might actually be it's own specific location in the Shadowfell. I remember reading the excerpt, I'll link it to you once I find it. But basically they talk about several areas of dread and darkness within the Shadowfell (and Ravenloft could very well be one of those).
Thats what I was thinking. But Ive never been a ravenloft fan so I dont care much. Also someone mentioned something called dark matter what exactly is that?
then darksun comes out with elemental priests and more psi goodness...
then PHB 4 elmental and ki +1 could easily spell an orential setting of some type...
then again my crystal ball is on the fritz...so i mightt be wrong
After all, they kept the demiplane concept. So why not keep the most famous demiplane of them all?
They kept Sigil.:PSigil didn't need to be a demiplane to work, though, as it could've just been a dominion floating in the Astral Sea. Which is kind of my point. Why keep demiplanes around if the most famous one of them all (Pre-4E MotP :P. Damn you, Ranadiel!) isn't going to be making an appearance? Make Sigil a dominion floating in the Astral Sea and boom, you're done. They could've jettisoned the entire concept of demiplanes altogether. Why keep them... but not keep the Demiplane of Dread?
Don't mean to come off sounding like I'm flaming anyone here, cause I'm not. I'm just a very disappointed Ravenloft fan, because I think Ravenloft would fit very nicely in a lot of ways into the 4E rules set. And to top it off, I see things like their keeping demiplanes around which makes it easier for them to bring back Ravenloft pretty much as it was, only to not leap on that opportunity. Just check out the description of demiplanes from Manual of the Planes:
Demiplanes
The last regular type of plane is a demiplane — a unique place where anything might be encountered. Like astral dominions or elemental realms, demiplanes are things created by some power or agency (*cough*DARKPOWERS*cough) after the formation of the world. They are not part of either the Astral Sea or the Elemental Chaos, but instead exist as bubbles of existence beyond the normal bounds of the cosmos.
Most demiplanes are small and secret. They’re created to be refuges, vaults, or more rarely tombs or prisons. It takes extremely powerful magic to create something out of nothing. It’s much easier to build a sanctuary in the Elemental Chaos than to create a secret plane of your own outside the bounds of the universe.
And here's the interesting thing that could be done, here. Could a demiplane have properties allowing it to mimic the properties of a material world? Because if so, then you could have the Demiplane of Dread with its own Feywild and Shadowfell reflections. Now THAT would be interesting!
Nevermind all the benefits that would come about from releasing Ravenloft as a campaign setting. New classes and races are released in the PHB's and Player's Guides, right? Well, wouldn't Ravenloft fit right in alongside the PHB that introduces the Shadow Power Source (including the Necromancer)? Not to mention that the Ravenloft Player's Guide can also give us the Vistani and Caliban as PC races, and maybe throw in an extra Shadow class or two. In addition, Ravenloft could give us rules for Fear, Horror, and Madness which can be used in general D&D games, too. I see a lot of upside to rereleasing Ravenloft as a campaign, and it frustrates me to see them not taking advantage of that. All for the best, I suppose. While I think it's possible to produce a pretty faithful adaptation of Ravenloft to 4E, I wouldn't want it to undergo the Forgotten Realms treatment. Just hope they don't go dissecting the setting and splitting up the domains among the Shadowfells of different worlds. That'd be even worse than Realmsifying Ravenloft.
If that's the case then it's a flaming ball of crap. Just the honest opinion of a long-term Ravenloft fan and someone who's (otherwise) a big fan of 4E. Personally, I don't see any reason they COULDN'T keep Ravenloft mostly as is.
While it is true that they could have left Ravenloft as it was, the questions the developers asked themselves was should they. In many ways merging shadow, negative and Ravenloft together make Domains of Dread easier to access and use.
After all, they kept the demiplane concept. So why not keep the most famous demiplane of them all?
Was the "Demi"plane of Dread ever really a demiplane in anything but name? It was almost a shadowy "World" of its own.
Carving it up like a Christmas roast and splitting it up among the Shadowfells of countless worlds completely destroys what made that setting great.
How so? What do you think made the setting great? How does creating "plug and play" domains ruin this? What advantages does Ravenloft being a demiplane actually have?
And really, I don't see why this is a problem. I mean, the domains of dread, like the astral dominions, elemental realms, and their feywild equivalent, are already pretty much "demi-planes" already.
And I have to ask, why is this an improvement? Because with the way things were, you got the best of both worlds. If you wanted a Weekend-In-Hell in Barovia, you could still do that. There was no reason your characters had to go to Hazlan, after all. But if you wanted a full-fledged campaign set there, then you could do that, too.
Now? You can have one, but not the other. Now, I don't mind the existence of Domains of Dread in the Shadowfell. I think they're a great idea. But there's no reason whatsoever that you can't have both. There's no reason you can't have Sunderheart, a Domain of Dread in the Shadowfell, and Ravenloft, the Demiplane of Dread. Hell, one could probably come up with a pretty neat cosmological reason for why that is.
The point is, with the way things were, you had numerous options. But carving up Ravenloft and dismantling it as a setting? That's not adding options. That's taking away options, with no actual benefit.
And really, I don't see why this is a problem.
Once again, because they're not a fully self-sufficient campaign setting. Sunderheart is Sunderheart. And as interesting as it'd be to game in, you can't set an entire campaign there. And having your players trapped in that one tiny little domain for their entire careers would get pretty boring fast. That'd be like the entire Forgotten Realms setting consisting solely of Cormyr, with nothing beyond its borders.
Sunderheart by itself is only interesting for a while. Likewise, Barovia by itself is only interesting for a while. But Barovia surrounded by Forlorn, Hazlan, Sithicus, Invidia, Borca, and Kartakass? Which are in turn surrounded by Darkon, the Shadow Rift, Mordent, Nova Vaasa, etc, with islands beyond their shores? That's a fully functioning setting. One with variety and rich in adventure opportunity, and which provides additional play experience that you can't have from just one single solitary domain, like political intrigue between nations, Falkovnian military aggression, Darkonian spies in Barovia, etc.
What I find hard to believe is why you don't see why this is a problem. I'd think the differences between a fully functioning campaign setting, and a sliver of a campaign setting, would be painfully obvious.
Because plug and play domains means that it's no longer useable as it's own contained setting. You can no longer simply walk from Sithicus to Barovia, etc. Now you leave the Krynn Shadowfell to go to Krynn, take some portal to the Core World, end up in the Core Shadowfell, and somehow get to Barovia. And of course, who'd willing do that and why? :P You can't have people living their lives and adventuring across the length and breadth of the Demiplane of Dread, because it's been sliced up and divided up into the Shadowfells of a dozen or more worlds.
What is requiring you to be in Kyrnn to get to Sithicus in a homebrew setting? Lord Soth and the basic outline of his story does not require Krynn to be used.
If you really want to have a campaign where you can walk between Sithicus and Barovia you can. Just unplug Sithicus from Kyrnn and plug it into your "Ravenloft" campaign.
The point is, with the way things were, you had numerous options. But carving up Ravenloft and dismantling it as a setting? That's not adding options. That's taking away options, with no actual benefit.
I have yet to see anything that has actually been lost that cannot be easily returned.
I have yet to see anything that has actually been lost that cannot be easily returned.
And the point is, nothing is gained by splitting it up. Why not keep them together and provide a unified setting, rather then force every single Ravenloft player out there to stitch the setting back together, resulting in hundreds of different versions of Ravenloft?
Because plug and play domains means that it's no longer useable as it's own contained setting. You can no longer simply walk from Sithicus to Barovia, etc. Now you leave the Krynn Shadowfell to go to Krynn, take some portal to the Core World, end up in the Core Shadowfell, and somehow get to Barovia. And of course, who'd willing do that and why? :P You can't have people living their lives and adventuring across the length and breadth of the Demiplane of Dread, because it's been sliced up and divided up into the Shadowfells of a dozen or more worlds.
Easy solution, the mists serve as a medium that connect the Domains from all the Shadowfells. They might not be physically connected when looking at them from the outside of the domains, but when you succefully traverse through the mist, except under rare circumstances, you end up in another domain rather than the physical other side of the mists. This creates the illusion that all of the domains are right next to each other when they are in fact not.
I
Finally, I would really like to see D20 Modern return... but I want it to be fully folded into the D&D system, not just kinda similar, but hard to mesh.
and if they did that,they would lose their d20 modern fan base IMNSHO,who would prefer that it keep its style well away from D&D 4e...and wish it to be closer to the Star Wars Saga edition
and if they did that,they would lose their d20 modern fan base IMNSHO,who would prefer that it keep its style well away from D&D 4e...and wish it to be closer to the Star Wars Saga edition
Eh... I don't know. Personally I would be happy with either a 4e or Star Wars Saga style d20 Modern. What I really want is for the new d20 Modern to be compatible either with the Star Wars Saga products or 4e products (allowing me to use the books from one of these product lines in conjunction with the new d20 Modern). I really don't want to buy a system which pretty much sells me Star Wars Saga, but repackaged, and with different names for classes.
That being said, there are so many awesome 4e Modern products coming out from Dias Ex Machina, I'm not sure what there is left for WotC to release in the field. I mean, they have a 4e Amethyst coming out (pretty much an Urban Arcana with future elements thrown in), and then they have NeuroSpasta coming out (pretty much a 4e Cyberscape setting).
Eh... I don't know. Personally I would be happy with either a 4e or Star Wars Saga style d20 Modern. What I really want is for the new d20 Modern to be compatible either with the Star Wars Saga products or 4e products (allowing me to use the books from one of these product lines in conjunction with the new d20 Modern). I really don't want to buy a system which pretty much sells me Star Wars Saga, but repackaged, and with different names for classes.
Well,I mean is as separate from the other lines as it was when it first came out
What is requiring you to be in Kyrnn to get to Sithicus in a homebrew setting? Lord Soth and the basic outline of his story does not require Krynn to be used.
If you really want to have a campaign where you can walk between Sithicus and Barovia you can. Just unplug Sithicus from Kyrnn and plug it into your "Ravenloft" campaign.
I have yet to see anything that has actually been lost that cannot be easily returned.
Why can't ALL the normal Ravenloft domains of dread be in the Krynnish Shadowfell anyway? If you want to get to Soth's realm in the shadowfell just go there!
If you want your players to go to Sithicus and encounter Lord Soth in your POL campaign.. why not just do it? He doesn't nessesarily need to be a Knight of the Rose from Solamnia in Krynn, he could be a Roseknight of Kuala Lumpur or you could just make a small nation of Solamnia, or make it a small province of the Nerathi empire that he could not save in it's downfall. Endless possibilities.
If you want to run a classic style Ravenloft campaign with all the domains connected... do it. They can still all be in the shadowfell, the mists between just always lead the ways you want them to, and if you want the PCs to be able to leave the domains for a respite they can visit Gloomwrought the city of Midninight. Do it. There is no map of the shadowfell any more than there is a map of (the entire) PoL campaign world.