Instead of updating an old Campaign Setting to 4E, why not WOTC instead design a brand-new setting that's tailor-made for 4E*? That way, we don't have hordes of fans screaming "they broke it forever!" and other such nonsense.
* Well, other than Points of Light, which really isn't a setting so much as it is a campaign theme.
With all that they already own, and can easily update / convert / re-publish whole cloth, it would probably not make sense to start anew.
I would, however, not mind a brand new world.
I have a proposal:
Instead of updating an old Campaign Setting to 4E, why not WOTC instead design a brand-new setting that's tailor-made for 4E*? That way, we don't have hordes of fans screaming "they broke it forever!" and other such nonsense.
* Well, other than Points of Light, which really isn't a setting so much as it is a campaign theme.
I think this is a good suggestion, but it will be too late for the 2010 setting, if that isn't already well into development there is something very very wrong.
I prefer to play some settings with a specific ruleset, such as Spelljammer (with 2nd edition) or the Known World (with Basic). Updating these worlds to the new game wouldn't interest me, not as much as a new world might at least. I first realized this back when the Known World was updated (as Mystara) to 2nd edition AD&D.
Warning! Pointless Speculation Ahead
I think there are only a few settings with a wide enough appeal to update to the new game: Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Greyhawk (all in no particular order). They may release Ravenloft, Planescape, Spelljammer but I'd guess it will farther down the line. I'd love to see Al-Qadim but don't see it happening.
No disrespect to fans of any particular settings, just harmless speculation on my part (relax ;)). I'd guess, three more years of re-launches (at least) before they'll be ready to release an entirely new D&D setting.
No disrespect to fans of any particular settings, just harmless speculation on my part (relax ;)). I'd guess, three more years of re-launches (at least) before they'll be ready to release an entirely new D&D setting.
That said, I hope we get a new setting in 2011. Specifically, I want to see Rich Burlew's setting that came in 2nd place to Eberron.
2010 - Greyhawk
2011 - Dragonlance
2012 - Dark Sun
2013 - Ravenloft
2014 - Spelljammer
However, that's just an off-the-top-of-my-head guess, and I doubt even WotC has any firm plans that far in advance.
As for what kind of new setting, there's a type of setting that I've seen a couple times in video game RPGs, but never in a Traditional RPG. If any of you have played Skies of Arcadia or Baten Kaitos, you'll know what I'm talking about. The floating islands and flying boats, where far below is the mysterious abyss, and a mythical "ocean" that no one can reach.
A brand-new setting is so much more work than an update that I doubt we'll see one before 2015. My guesses for upcoming settings are:
...
2014 - Spelljammer
See I'm gonna have to vote against Spelljammer. The last thing D&D currently needs is the return of "Giant Space X" monsters.
A dream setting for me would be something like Bas-Lag and specifically New Crozubon. Especially since I think "New Weird" has been fairly popular in fantasy for more then a few years. It is also quite different then most D&D settings.
Hell yes.
Heck, Bas Lag already has warforged. And it can easily accommodate virtually any race you could possibly throw at it.
I wonder if China Melville would go for that.
But the fact that the psionic power source is part of the PHB3 also gives a hint toward Dark Sun.
For my part I would prefer Dragonlance first. I am a DM for Forgotten Realms, I have a DM for Eberron and I would have a DM for Dragonlance. If Dark Sun would be released first I would be a DM for two settings. Not a big deal though, I love to be a DM.
I hope we will have the answer soon for the 2010 setting so that we can at last end speculations ;)
A dream setting for me would be something like Bas-Lag and specifically New Crozubon. Especially since I think "New Weird" has been fairly popular in fantasy for more then a few years. It is also quite different then most D&D settings.
As nice or interesting as that is, I doubt we'll see anything like that beyond an article in Dragon or Dungeon, as was already done for China Melville's stuff in Dragon #352 before they went pdf only. With a little work you could probably adapt the article to 4E.
I wonder if the recent event "So you think you can DRAGONLANCE" is a hint for next year's released setting.
But the fact that the psionic power source is part of the PHB3 also gives a hint toward Dark Sun.
For my part I would prefer Dragonlance first. I am a DM for Forgotten Realms, I have a DM for Eberron and I would have a DM for Dragonlance. If Dark Sun would be released first I would be a DM for two settings. Not a big deal though, I love to be a DM.
I hope we will have the answer soon for the 2010 setting so that we can at last end speculations ;)
Actually, the "So you think you can DRAGONLANCE" contest looks like it has more to do with the Dragons of the Hourglass Mage book release than it does to do with the next 4th Edition campaign.
That said, my guess is on Dark sun for one major reason: they seem to be going for a different subgenre of fantasy with each release. Forgotten Realms covers high fantasy, Eberron covers magepunk/pulp fantasy, and Dark Sun would be a post-apocalyptic setting. I don't think they're going to release another high fantasy setting a-la Greyhawk or Dragonlance so soon.
Though the focus on bizarre races and science are the two big ones more me. I have always disliked that sort of, "if it doesn't like 90% human you should kill it" feel. Plus I never understood why science is simply non-existent in fantasy. Hell in my current campaign setting, it deals with parallel realities and a being who can warp the universe by changing the resonance frequency of Strings (String Theory) to create its "music". Not to mention most magic and other supernatural forces are built around the manipulation of scientific principles. With Pseudoscience mixed in for the fun as well. As well as general science like firearms, trains, industrial revolution and all that.
I'd imagine either Dark Sun or Dragonlance will be the next major setting release. Personally, I hope it's Dark Sun (but only if they can bring back Brom for the artwork). It would be a welcome change of pace from the standard fantasy of Points of Light/Forgotten Realms (and to a lesser extent Eberron).
I'd kill to see Al-Qadim updated, but as was pointed out to me, in this day and age it might not behoove WotC to publish a game whose name is uncomfortably close to Al-Qaeda.
I never understood why science is simply non-existent in fantasy.
It is not non-existent. It is simply called magic.
Fireball? It's bat guano (ammonia-based fertilizer) and a spark.
As for scientific research in a fantasy setting... the alchemist and the chemist, the astronomer and the astrologer. Two sides of each coin. But when alchemy and astrology have real power, the need for the chemist and the astronomer are diminished. The effectiveness of the former precludes the need for the latter. Who would anyone try to create a mechanical vacuum cleaner when you can have an unseen servant? Who needs a lightbulb when you have continual flame? Why invent the telephone when you have message? We don't need jet airplanes when we have elemental airships.
It is not non-existent. It is simply called magic.
Fireball? It's bat guano (ammonia-based fertilizer) and a spark.
As for scientific research in a fantasy setting... the alchemist and the chemist, the astronomer and the astrologer. Two sides of each coin. But when alchemy and astrology have real power, the need for the chemist and the astronomer are diminished. The effectiveness of the former precludes the need for the latter. Who would anyone try to create a mechanical vacuum cleaner when you can have an unseen servant? Who needs a lightbulb when you have continual flame? Why invent the telephone when you have message? We don't need jet airplanes when we have elemental airships.
I'm actually inclined to believe that technical progress would continue, it would just use magic instead of tech. The interwebs would be filled with 1's and 0's spoken in magic messages from our mystic thinky boxes (which is pretty much how everyone I know over 60 sees a computer anyway).
I'm actually inclined to believe that technical progress would continue, it would just use magic instead of tech. The interwebs would be filled with 1's and 0's spoken in magic messages from our mystic thinky boxes (which is pretty much how everyone I know over 60 sees a computer anyway).
And that's how we got Eberron... filled with trains, robots, banking systems, and all sorts of other things which are analogous to a more modern culture.
A conjuration spell to be refined and perfected you need to know how to properly change the resonance frequency of strings to cause it to be warped (for lack of a better term) into reality. To understand fully how gravity works you need to understand how levitation spells effect it and so forth.
As such as magic progresses and becomes most likely more refined. So does technology and science. So I see no reason why technology wise it would simply stop at the medieval (why even the medieval too if magic stops technological and scientific progress why medieval and not before or after). So Industrial Revolution, Atomic Age, etc. could all happen alongside magic. Sure magic will have a impact but also vice-versa. Constructs for instance may be built using hydraulics and pistons but brought to life with a spell, to give another example.
Plus I think it just makes for a interesting setting.
Plus I think it just makes for a interesting setting.
Monte Cook's Ptolus featured magic, magitech/chaositech, and true technology in varying measures. It's a great setting. One day I might have the impetus to try a 4E game in that setting.
BTW, Dragonlance had a handle on the post-apocalyptic world long before Dark Sun, look at the Cataclysm (the friggin' planet was hit by a meteor for god's sake), and then the Second Cataclysm (Fiery God Giant rampaging across the countryside).
My bet is on Dragonlance 2010 (all of the current hype seems to be pointing that way) and Dark Sun 2011 (20th Anniversary, all the psionic splatbooks will be out, they can have the Thri-Kreen on the cover of PHB4 with Elemental Power Source inside), and hopefully WotC will be working on an entirely new setting during those years, so in 2012 we can have something totally new.
BTW, Dragonlance had a handle on the post-apocalyptic world long before Dark Sun, look at the Cataclysm (the friggin' planet was hit by a meteor for god's sake), and then the Second Cataclysm (Fiery God Giant rampaging across the countryside).
Post-apocalyptic isn't actually a genre simply based on the concept of a world after apocalypse. The post-apocalyptic genre is based on the concept of a world where civilization has largely ended. Remaining civilizations (if you can call them that) are generally dystopic, and survivalism is key to the inherent themes. It's not simply about time periods after an apocalypse... otherwise virtually every setting counts as post-apocalyptic.
I have a proposal:
Instead of updating an old Campaign Setting to 4E, why not WOTC instead design a brand-new setting that's tailor-made for 4E*? That way, we don't have hordes of fans screaming "they broke it forever!" and other such nonsense.
Well, its either "WotC hates us! They won't reprint because it's not hip enough for the WoW crowd, even though it would make them a million dollars! Guess WotC is stupid!" or "WotC hates us! They ruined by making it hip and appealing to the WoW crowd. They're going to lose a million dollars, man they're stupid!"
You can't please everyone, but you can at least try and get their money. Posts on this thread are proof enough that people see what they want to see, even with overwhelming evidence and logical deduction working against them.
Well, its either "WotC hates us! They won't reprint because it's not hip enough for the WoW crowd, even though it would make them a million dollars! Guess WotC is stupid!" or "WotC hates us! They ruined by making it hip and appealing to the WoW crowd. They're going to lose a million dollars, man they're stupid!"
You can't please everyone, but you can at least try and get their money. Posts on this thread are proof enough that people see what they want to see, even with overwhelming evidence and logical deduction working against them.
I dont know what you mean by logic to me new eddition logic says you should get a new setting. That would be the most logical thing. The people who are fans of the old people can still play in those old settings.
I would rather see old settings with a new spin.
Depends on the old setting only Al-Qadim, Spell Jammer, Plane Scape, and Darksun apeal to me. Nothing they do can make grey hawk and dl interesting nothing, and I dont know enough about any of the other old settings to say one way or the other. Id rather see new settings as Ebaron is the single most interesting dnd setting to date. Id love to see what the current design team can do when given free reign. I mean they actually made Forgotten realms worth playing in, so id love to see what they come out with for truly new material.
I'd like to see a science power source.
So long as it gets access to giant robots, I'm game.
I'd like to see a science power source.
Personally I would like to see "Themes". They wouldn't be like a Power Source where you have a specific Classes and such. Rather it be more open. With stuff like:
- Floating Powers
- New Class Features
- Feat Trees
- Paragon Paths
- Epic Destinies
- Perhaps Special Items
- Perhaps Multiclass-Only Classes (like Spellscarred)
I would prefer that for things like Science/Technology and such. Since in a setting where science is commonly practised or its benefits commonly used I think it would serve a better purpose in this manner. Like a Ranger should be able to have firearm-oriented Powers, and such. So you can take the base-classes and remodel them for Science/Technology and other Themes.
I'd like to see a science power source.
Classes:
striker: Gunner. Melee striker uses an offhand pistol(impliment) with a main hand weapon. Dex main.
coltroler: Saboteur. Uses bombs, tanglefoot bags etc.
Leader: Tinker- redo artifcer
Defender: Tank- Encases himself in a mechanical suit, counts as medium for wielding weapons. Int main cha secondary (just so gnomes would be best)
I have a proposal:
Instead of updating an old Campaign Setting to 4E, why not WOTC instead design a brand-new setting that's tailor-made for 4E*? That way, we don't have hordes of fans screaming "they broke it forever!" and other such nonsense.
* Well, other than Points of Light, which really isn't a setting so much as it is a campaign theme.
"Hey, we're opening a new McDonalds. Do you think we should place primary importance on selling Big Macs, or fries?"
"What? No, neither. We're going to sell this new burger; I call it the McPasta. We'll stock Big Macs next year."
As much as a new original setting might kick ass, it also might not. There's just no business sense in risking something new when you have an existing product that has an equal chance of capturing new fans, plus a built-in audience that already want it whether or not it sucks.
There's really no point in a new setting until you've sold the Dragonlance and Darksun people as many Dragonlance and Darksun books as they're willing to buy; and even then, you've got to look hard at the idea of rebooting the setting in a new edition and selling them the same books agian.
A nice idea, but then practicality comes into play. They have easily a dozen worlds to choose form and update at much lower in-house cost than a new setting. Dragonlance (my bet for 2011), Athas/DarkSun (my guess for 2010), Mystara/Hollow World, Al-Qadim, Birthright, Blackmoor (although probably no longer owned), Greyhawk (I hope they never touch this), Jakandor, Kara-Tur, Mahasarpa, Maztica, Rokugan, Savage Coast, and even Planescape and Spelljammer.
With all that they already own, and can easily update / convert / re-publish whole cloth, it would probably not make sense to start anew.
I would, however, not mind a brand new world.
What the hell are Jakandor, Mahasarpa, and Maztica?
"Hey, we're opening a new McDonalds. Do you think we should place primary importance on selling Big Macs, or fries?"
"What? No, neither. We're going to sell this new burger; I call it the McPasta. We'll stock Big Macs next year."
As much as a new original setting might kick ass, it also might not. There's just no business sense in risking something new when you have an existing product that has an equal chance of capturing new fans, plus a built-in audience that already want it whether or not it sucks.
There's really no point in a new setting until you've sold the Dragonlance and Darksun people as many Dragonlance and Darksun books as they're willing to buy; and even then, you've got to look hard at the idea of rebooting the setting in a new edition and selling them the same books agian.
Some of us though would rather spend money on something new and thats my point. The 4e desingers are really good and Id love to see them make their own setting. Id be more likely to spend money on a new setting than an old one rehashed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_campaign_settings
I do think Dark Sun and Dragonlance will be the next two released (i am hoping in that order) - last year all hints seemed to be Dark Sun, this years hints seem to be saying more Dragonlance though..
However, as was pointed out in the Future Release forum, thri-kreen and half-giants are specifically mentioned in the Eberron Player's Guide, whereas more DL-centric races, such as sea elves, etc, were not. Considering the FRPG, and how EVERY single race mentioned took less than a year to come out, that is a pretty big convincing of evidence for DS over DL. I'd say it is the biggest piece of actual evidence presented thus far.
What the hell are Jakandor, Mahasarpa, and Maztica?
Jakandor
Mahasarpa
Maztica
However, as was pointed out in the Future Release forum, thri-kreen and half-giants are specifically mentioned in the Eberron Player's Guide, whereas more DL-centric races, such as sea elves, etc, were not. Considering the FRPG, and how EVERY single race mentioned took less than a year to come out, that is a pretty big convincing of evidence for DS over DL. I'd say it is the biggest piece of actual evidence presented thus far.
It's the 25th anniversary of DL this year.
Dragons of the Hourglass Mage was held over for several months to coincide with August, the month of Gencon, the con where they announce the new campaign setting. DotHM could, theoretically, have ads for D&D in it, a good place to announce the new campaign setting to fans who don't follow the RPG anymore.
WotC is holding a contest for the world's biggest DL fan to attend the convention. The winner will have an essay on why they love Dragonlance posted on the WotC website, probably posted around the same time they announce the new campaign setting.
The newest miniature set, Legendary Evils, has an Aurak Draconian in it, and no Dark Sun specific minis.
You can desire whatever setting you want, but it's pretty clear what WotC is gearing up for.
You can desire whatever setting you want, but it's pretty clear what WotC is gearing up for.
I'm saving this post in my "look up later" list just in case. Because your statement here ("you can desire whatever you wish") applies just as easily to your comments.
I'm just sayin'
It's the 25th anniversary of DL this year.
Yes, and next year is DS's 20th. So? While neat, not necessarily evidence at all.
Dragons of the Hourglass Mage was held over for several months to coincide with August, the month of Gencon, the con where they announce the new campaign setting. DotHM could, theoretically, have ads for D&D in it, a good place to announce the new campaign setting to fans who don't follow the RPG anymore.
WotC is holding a contest for the world's biggest DL fan to attend the convention. The winner will have an essay on why they love Dragonlance posted on the WotC website, probably posted around the same time they announce the new campaign setting.
All of this could be tied into the 25th anniversery, with no actual meaning beyond that.
The newest miniature set, Legendary Evils, has an Aurak Draconian in it, and no Dark Sun specific minis.
Really, you have the whole list already?!? I've only seen names for one-quarter to one-third of the list. Filling in a cycle they started years ago is not evidence. When the whole list is out, maybe you'll have a point. If you do have the full list, please, enlighted us. I'd love to see it.
You can desire whatever setting you want, but it's pretty clear what WotC is gearing up for.
Ditto to you. :D
The EPG lists two blatant DS races, and no DL-specific races.
DS got an actual Dragon article.
DS has potential references during the month of Dragon that was supposed to drop hint. DL did not.
Psionics comes out in the PH3. This is intimately important to DS, and completely unimportant and not tied to DL.
WotC said the setting will surprise many. Dragonlance will NOT surprise most folks. Us forum-goers won't be surprised by Dark Sun. But the D&D community at large will.
The EPG is the single most convincing piece of evidence if the albeit brief history of 4E is any indication.
Otherwise we will get the same old crap again and again.
We already did. They did the Realms first.
Now we get the old good stuff. Eberron this year. Another good one next year. Although I would prefer Athas (Dark Sun) to Krynn (DragonLance), both are likely to be popular, well-received worlds. I think Athas pushes the envelope better than Krynn for showing the versatility of the 4e ruleset, and allows the designers to make a lot more stuff for Dragon, Dungeon, PHB3 and PHB4, DMG3 and DMG4, and most assuredly the Monster Manuals. But that's just me.
Wraith Recon exists, and it's the only one built from the ground up as a complete setting for 4e. It's also very, very niche. It's good for what it does, and that's it (military style spec ops gaming).
Eberron was the best setting in the 3.5 era. It was built for it, from the ground up. Trying to push it, and the Realms, into 4e, is missing the point of a new system entirely. It should get a *new* setting.
We have memories of great setting from the past because someone, somewhere, decided that Greyhawk wasn't enough. Forgotton Realms wasn't enough. And so on.
As much as we have nostalgia, I think we'd be better off leaving the updating of older settings to house rules and dragon magazine, and let the yearly settings become something new and fresh. New IPs, with room to grow. So we can look back on those, fondly, and come up with our own house rules to use them in 5e.
Let's never look back.
I fully agree with williamhm75 - a new system should have an entirely new setting designed, from the ground up, to compliment its mechanics. Not a "concept" like PoL - a setting.
Wraith Recon exists, and it's the only one built from the ground up as a complete setting for 4e. It's also very, very niche. It's good for what it does, and that's it (military style spec ops gaming).
Eberron was the best setting in the 3.5 era. It was built for it, from the ground up. Trying to push it, and the Realms, into 4e, is missing the point of a new system entirely. It should get a *new* setting.
We have memories of great setting from the past because someone, somewhere, decided that Greyhawk wasn't enough. Forgotton Realms wasn't enough. And so on.
As much as we have nostalgia, I think we'd be better off leaving the updating of older settings to house rules and dragon magazine, and let the yearly settings become something new and fresh. New IPs, with room to grow. So we can look back on those, fondly, and come up with our own house rules to use them in 5e.
Let's never look back.
Grey Hawk isnt enough. I like the new realms but I cant see DL as good in anyway shape or form. Id much rather see something new and actually interesting. The new realms is very intrigiung over the old realms mainly because they nerfed or blew up enough of the npcs and got rid of a lot of the gods.
But no way can they make DL interesting. And I cant believe rant and I agree on somehting though an actual POL source book would be cool, because its an interesting concept.
What if they release both Dark Sun and Dragonlance?
[/WildMassGuessing]
[WildMassGuessing]
What if they release both Dark Sun and Dragonlance?
[/WildMassGuessing]
they probably will but they have already said they will release only one setting a year.
[WildMassGuessing]
What if they release both Dark Sun and Dragonlance?
[/WildMassGuessing]
Here's my hope: If campaign settings sell well enough, maybe they'll release more than one D&D world a year Wouldn't it be nice to see Dragonlance/Dark Sun next year, Greyhawk/Blackmoor the following year ;)?
Here's my hope: If campaign settings sell well enough, maybe they'll release more than one D&D world a year Wouldn't it be nice to see Dragonlance/Dark Sun next year, Greyhawk/Blackmoor the following year ;)?
Dont know what blackmoor is but grey hawk is worse than DL in my book. For when I run games I am already going to remove every god from the book that ever showed up in grey hawk and replace them with gods of my own design. Grey hawk is far too generic.
Dont know what blackmoor is but grey hawk is worse than DL in my book. For when I run games I am already going to remove every god from the book that ever showed up in grey hawk and replace them with gods of my own design. Grey hawk is far too generic.
Blackmoor was the very first D&D campaign world, created before the game came out by the late Dave Arneson, used in his wargames before D&D even came out as a product. The first printed Blackmoor product, however, came out after the Greyhawk supplement. It is considered to be the single longest-running continuous D&D campaign setting.
I was never quite sure where to jump in on Greyhawk. At one time, I had the 'gold box' set but it felt 1st edition (even if it was rules lite), and I was playing 2nd edition at the time. Greyhawk Adventures was a 1st edition hardcover that was marketed as '2nd edition compatable' but it wasn't a place to start.
City of Greyhawk I never picked up; I was unsure if Greyhawk Wars was a campaign setting or an expansion, and From the Ashes seemed like a curtain call for the setting (not a jump in point). I'd love to play Greyhawk and if the venerable setting were to be released for 4e, I'd finally get my chance.
Eberron is another that I've never taken the opportunity to play. I bought the 3.5 Campaign Setting in high hopes of starting a game but it never happeened. Now that our Forgotten Realms games are finished though, the other players and I are very anxious to start a 4e Eberron campaign. It was s'posed to happen this week but work came up, so hopefully the weekend after next.
Just taking a few seconds out of the day to ramble a bit; figure this is the best place for it. Have a good one ;).
New eddition should=new content and new settings made specifaclly for the new eddition, that way we continually get new material. Otherwise we will get the same old crap again and again.
Despite being a long-time Greyhawker, I agree with your sentiment. I already have 3 separate continent-spanning gazeteers, two versions of the signature city, oodles of supplements and modules, novels, a video game, a board game, and a 3 ring binder full of homebrew stuff. It is hard to imagine how another release would add that much value to my game. On the other hand, as a fan I will buy it if released.
I would rather see something new.
Despite being a long-time Greyhawker, I agree with your sentiment. I already have 3 separate continent-spanning gazeteers, two versions of the signature city, oodles of supplements and modules, novels, a video game, a board game, and a 3 ring binder full of homebrew stuff. It is hard to imagine how another release would add that much value to my game. On the other hand, as a fan I will buy it if released.
I would rather see something new.
Well I might buy grey hawk, but only after looking at it and seeing if it adds anything to dnd. Most dms I use use home brew settings and just take elements they like from the various guides. I never played in grey hawk all I know of it is it being the implied setting in 3e, hence one of the reasons I dislike it. It just feels bland maybe Id feel differently if I had played it as a real setting.
a new system should have an entirely new setting designed, from the ground up, to compliment its mechanics.
The same can be said of races and classes, but we still have fighters, clerics, rangers, and druids.
A new setting is fine. But there is no "should have" about it.
I have a proposal:
Instead of updating an old Campaign Setting to 4E, why not WOTC instead design a brand-new setting that's tailor-made for 4E*? That way, we don't have hordes of fans screaming "they broke it forever!" and other such nonsense.
* Well, other than Points of Light, which really isn't a setting so much as it is a campaign theme.
Good idea but it's too late. The setting is already in development. Maybe in 2011.
Well I might buy grey hawk, but only after looking at it and seeing if it adds anything to dnd. [...] It just feels bland maybe Id feel differently if I had played it as a real setting.
Greyhawk is my world. I use the map, and the history up to the point it I bought it in 1982. But that's it. It is *my* Greyhawk now. Has been for 27 years. And it probably will be for the next 27. I've stolen adventures, plotlines, and mechanics from every setting ever published by TSR/WotC, and placed them in *my* Greyhawk without nary an objection.
If they released a 4e Greyhawk, I would buy it, and do the same with it as I did with Faerun and am about to do with Eberron.
Good idea but it's too late. The setting is already in development. Maybe in 2011.
So care to offer any hints, or tell us when you are going to anounce it?
please please please anything but dragon lance.
Good idea but it's too late. The setting is already in development. Maybe in 2011.
*Slips the Rouse a $5* Meet me behind the forum I have some ideas involving words such as Steampunk, New Weird, SCIENCE!/Pseudoscience and most importantly BEST SETTING EVER! I want to share with you :P
Actually since you are here, how far in the future do you think up a setting choice. I assume FR and Eberron was fairly instant but by the time say FR was out had the final choice been already made for the 2010 setting?
The same can be said of races and classes, but we still have fighters, clerics, rangers, and druids.
A new setting is fine. But there is no "should have" about it.
I would say there most certainly is a "should have" in regards to new stuff. Which is why we have Dragonborn, Warlords, Eladrin, and Rituals right off the bat with our fighters/clerics/rangers, and added such as Avengers and Wardens when we got Druids.
But it definitely goes hand in hand with a "should have" for old stuff. That's one of the things I liked best about the PHB when 4e launched. It had plenty of new stuff (the stuff mentioned above, plus adding the Warlock to a PHB), with enough old stuff that it was still D&D.
Related to settings, it's why I would prefer multiple settings per year, or alternating between old/new every other year. But that's just me.
Good idea but it's too late. The setting is already in development. Maybe in 2011.
Sigh. These vague official comments that don't confirm/deny anything are almost worse than having no information at all...
The same can be said of races and classes, but we still have fighters, clerics, rangers, and druids.
A new setting is fine. But there is no "should have" about it.
Yes, but we also have; Avengers, Invokers, Swordmages and Wardens. I would like to see a new setting for 4E, one that embraces all the changes in D&D, like the new cosmology and the primal aspect of the world.
Bel
Edit: Ninja'd by AlphaSquirell
I don't know. Despite the insistence that the default fluff in the books is not a full-fledged campaign setting, it's pretty close. It has a history, assumed racial relations, major players in the cosmic scale, and religion. All it's really missing before it can be publishable on its own merit is a world map.
And haven't they been stressing with Points of Light that towns and other "friendly places" are supposed to be "points of light" in the darkness of the rest of the world, which isn't supposed to have a defined map?
I like the concept for "anything anywhere" because it can be dropped in as an area centered on a point or two of light, but you know, with a little effort it COULD make a decent setting.
And it would be cool to see more "stuff" bringing in the newer aspects of 4e, like cultures/societies of Primal characters, arcane/fey societies, even some more "concrete" stuff for "history fluff" like Bael Turuth (or however you spell it, the old empire, Tiefling, wasn't it?)
Let's never look back.
No. Just no.
why? Why not let old settings fade as new edditions come out?
You really have to ask that? That's like asking what's wrong with forgetting history.
I fully agree with williamhm75 - a new system should have an entirely new setting designed, from the ground up, to compliment its mechanics. Not a "concept" like PoL - a setting.
Wraith Recon exists, and it's the only one built from the ground up as a complete setting for 4e. It's also very, very niche. It's good for what it does, and that's it (military style spec ops gaming).
Eberron was the best setting in the 3.5 era. It was built for it, from the ground up. Trying to push it, and the Realms, into 4e, is missing the point of a new system entirely. It should get a *new* setting.
We have memories of great setting from the past because someone, somewhere, decided that Greyhawk wasn't enough. Forgotton Realms wasn't enough. And so on.
As much as we have nostalgia, I think we'd be better off leaving the updating of older settings to house rules and dragon magazine, and let the yearly settings become something new and fresh. New IPs, with room to grow. So we can look back on those, fondly, and come up with our own house rules to use them in 5e.
Let's never look back.
Actually, many of the changes 4th Edition has seem to be directly inspired by Eberron... whether the lax alignment system, the idea that the players are the focal point of the setting, or even the concept of action points, Eberron has affected a lot of the stylistics of the new game. It, more than any setting, fits right in with 4th Edition.
However, one thing that did bother me is the fact that they hammered the new cosmology into Eberron, when Eberron was interesting for the fact that it was separate from the standard cosmology of the last edition. I'm half afraid that they'll have hammered other concepts into the setting that didn't belong their previously... physically existent gods, primordials, and other such things.
I don't know. Despite the insistence that the default fluff in the books is not a full-fledged campaign setting, it's pretty close. It has a history, assumed racial relations, major players in the cosmic scale, and religion. All it's really missing before it can be publishable on its own merit is a world map.
Except it really isn't. It's history is barely concrete, and no solid information of when these events occurred is given... so that DMs don't have to wrestle with a solid campaign foundation. Assumed racial relations are only a generality, and no specifics are given on where this holds most or least true (that means that you can still have a Dragonborn who loathes the Tieflings despite the fact that the assumed relation between them is amicable, solely because he comes from a fabricated locale where that mindset hasn't died out).
The lack of specifics and world map leaves space for the DM to play around... no need to stick to a specific world and use premade towns, because there is plenty of space to inject your own locations and whatnot, with your own injected history as well. That makes a huge difference that you won't see in more concrete settings, which is why it's not really considered one.
why? Why not let old settings fade as new edditions come out?
For the same reason that I didn't stop playing Shadowrun when SR2 came out, and the same reason people play Exalted 2nd Edition... an edition shift doesn't necessarily mean that people want to move away from a fictional setting they truly enjoy.
For the same reason that I didn't stop playing Shadowrun when SR2 came out, and the same reason people play Exalted 2nd Edition... an edition shift doesn't necessarily mean that people want to move away from a fictional setting they truly enjoy.
They can still play the old setting all the old fluff is still the same. Id just like to see more new material is all. I dont want the same settings used over and over again. Ebaron was the first new setting in almost a decade I dont want to go that long without a new setting again.
A futuristic setting would be cool IF they did it right....Don't ask me how to do it right. I don't give out that info for free!;)
STEAM PUNK please please please please please. Id love a full on steam punk setting it would be amazing.
A futuristic setting would be cool IF they did it right....Don't ask me how to do it right. I don't give out that info for free!;)
Steampunk mixed with Pseudoscience would do quite well. You could have Steampunk craziness and also Space Guns and huge dirigibles scrape the atmosphere that and the Aether and Aetherships to travel through space. Plus once you are at that level of craziness mixing in aesthetically/stylistically proper rayguns (like WETA's) would work well.
This would fit in some very sci-fi elements. But also keep the majority of fantasy feel so less likely for it go wrong.
They can still play the old setting all the old fluff is still the same. Id just like to see more new material is all. I dont want the same settings used over and over again. Ebaron was the first new setting in almost a decade I dont want to go that long without a new setting again.
A good setting changes and develops... it doesn't stay the same over the years. Even Shadowrun has changed dramatically over the years, from the introduction of the Otaku, to the Year of the Comet, to Crash 2.0, to the assassination of Dunkelzhan... and that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. The same goes with many settings, including Forgotten Realms.
Old setting doesn't necessarily equate to old material. You can have new material in an old setting just fine.
A good setting changes and develops... it doesn't stay the same over the years. Even Shadowrun has changed dramatically over the years, from the introduction of the Otaku, to the Year of the Comet, to Crash 2.0, to the assassination of Dunkelzhan... and that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. The same goes with many settings, including Forgotten Realms.
Old setting doesn't necessarily equate to old material. You can have new material in an old setting just fine.
Only to an extent. Rember how many people complained about the changes to the realms?
Only to an extent. Rember how many people complained about the changes to the realms?
You say that as if there is anything that Wizards could possibly do to shut out all complaining. They can't. If they update a setting, people will complain about the changes whether they are too small or big. If they make a new setting, people will complain that they aren't supporting old ones. Don't forget: some people actually love the 4th Edition Realms.
If we're going to avoid something because of the potential complaints, they might as well not produce a single book... and even then, people will complain about it.
You say that as if there is anything that Wizards could possibly do to shut out all complaining. They can't. If they update a setting, people will complain about the changes whether they are too small or big. If they make a new setting, people will complain that they aren't supporting old ones. Don't forget: some people actually love the 4th Edition Realms.
If we're going to avoid something because of the potential complaints, they might as well not produce a single book... and even then, people will complain about it.
Thats true, Im just saying to change some of the old settings enough to make them interesting enough theyd have to change a lot. Its hard to use an old setting to add options. I mean what class usable outside of it would Dragonlance add? I cant really think of one.
Thats true, Im just saying to change some of the old settings enough to make them interesting enough theyd have to change a lot. Its hard to use an old setting to add options. I mean what class usable outside of it would Dragonlance add? I cant really think of one.
The Tinker. It dosen't have to be a reflavoring of the Artificer from Eberron, especially since reading the fluff the two have very different ways of approaching machines and building stuff. Even before 2nd edition, tinkers found there way into Spelljammer and it can be argued Forgotten Realms (Lantan).
However, that feels to me to be a purposeful insertion of obsolence when D&D changes editions and the first PHB can't handle every class.
A better proposition would be making NPCs purposefully vague on their character class, saying Elminster is "Arcane" instead of Wizard or King Boraneal of Breland is "Martial" instead of Fighter / Warlord. Better yet, don't give them classes (this ain't 3ed anymore, NPCs can be classless). That way, you get a good setting that transitions well, instead of a 3ed setting being cludged into 4ed.
I'm saving this post in my "look up later" list just in case. Because your statement here ("you can desire whatever you wish") applies just as easily to your comments.
I'm just sayin'
I'm not a fan of Dragonlance. In fact, I'd be more interested in a Dark Sun campaign book over DL. I'm just putting out the facts.
And please do bump this after GenCon. I'll be happy to ear crow if I'm wrong.
The Tinker. It dosen't have to be a reflavoring of the Artificer from Eberron, especially since reading the fluff the two have very different ways of approaching machines and building stuff. Even before 2nd edition, tinkers found there way into Spelljammer and it can be argued Forgotten Realms (Lantan).
Tinker would fit better in a full on STEAM PUNK setting. Which I would buy in a heart beat. It makes no sense to me how dl can have tinkers without having fire arms and canons. To me the whole thing just feels like a bunch of racial sterotypes tossed together along with the most idiotic good gods ever.
Tinker would fit better in a full on STEAM PUNK setting. Which I would buy in a heart beat. It makes no sense to me how dl can have tinkers without having fire arms and canons. To me the whole thing just feels like a bunch of racial sterotypes tossed together along with the most idiotic good gods ever.
Dragonlance does have cannons in it, they are called Bombards.
Tinker would fit better in a full on STEAM PUNK setting. Which I would buy in a heart beat. It makes no sense to me how dl can have tinkers without having fire arms and canons. To me the whole thing just feels like a bunch of racial sterotypes tossed together along with the most idiotic good gods ever.
See ... I'm beginning to think this is an act. You can't go more than one or two posts without complaining repeatedly about how much you hate DL. You are either doing this on purpose, maybe as some weird reverse psychology thing, or you are flat out obsessed.
Tinker would fit better in a full on STEAM PUNK setting. Which I would buy in a heart beat. It makes no sense to me how dl can have tinkers without having fire arms and canons. To me the whole thing just feels like a bunch of racial sterotypes tossed together along with the most idiotic good gods ever.
Which goes to show that Dragonlance can provide a useful class outside of itself to the rest of Dungeons and Dragons. We all win.
Which goes to show that Dragonlance can provide a useful class outside of itself to the rest of Dungeons and Dragons. We all win.
um no because my point is tinker fits best in a steam punk setting. DLs tinkers always failed if I rember right every device they built wound up blowing up and they still mostly used magic, so no you dont win. A new setting using steam punk or a pirate campaign setting would add more to the game then dl can.
See ... I'm beginning to think this is an act. You can't go more than one or two posts without complaining repeatedly about how much you hate DL. You are either doing this on purpose, maybe as some weird reverse psychology thing, or you are flat out obsessed.
Only because dl fans keep trouting the setting as some sort of pinacle of high fantasy. I dont want them to win. I dont want wotc to think that producing dl would be a good idea. None of the people in my gaming group would buy dl. Besides FG is already generic fantasy do we need another generic high fantasy setting already?
Only because dl fans keep trouting the setting as some sort of pinacle of high fantasy. I dont want them to win. I dont want wotc to think that producing dl would be a good idea. None of the people in my gaming group would buy dl. Besides FG is already generic fantasy do we need another generic high fantasy setting already?
One, it's not a battle - there is no "winning" or "losing."
Two, the outcome has already been decided. If it's DL it's DL, if not it's not, either way it's set in stone, and no matter how much you whine it's not changing.
One, it's not a battle - there is no "winning" or "losing."
Two, the outcome has already been decided. If it's DL it's DL, if not it's not, either way it's set in stone, and no matter how much you whine it's not changing.
Well if its dl I wont be buying it, nor if i ever dm will I allow anything from dl in my game.
Really wish we knew what it was.
Well if its dl I wont be buying it, nor if i ever dm will I allow anything from dl in my game.
Really wish we knew what it was.
Not allowing material from DL into your game just because of an irrational hatred is petty and the sign of bad DMing.
Not allowing material from DL into your game just because of an irrational hatred is petty and the sign of bad DMing.
Maybe so but I hate kender so if i allowed dl material id be allowing kender.
Maybe so but I hate kender so if i allowed dl material id be allowing kender.
The good news is, you don't have to buy a WotC product if you don't want to. If I didn't like undead or dragons or new magic items, I wouldn't buy Open Grave or the Draconomicon or Adventurer's Vault. I am sure WotC doesn't expect you to suddenly like Dragonlance (or Dark Sun, or some new fantasy setting of some kind) just because it's a 4E book.
Cheers,
Cam
Maybe so but I hate kender so if i allowed dl material id be allowing kender.
See ... there's two major problems with that reasoning ... First, just because you allow one thing from a setting, it doesn't mean everything has to be allowed/used. Second, 4e halflings ARE kender, so you're just kinda sorta already allowing them ...
God I hope 2010 is Dark Sun...
um no because my point is tinker fits best in a steam punk setting. DLs tinkers always failed if I rember right every device they built wound up blowing up and they still mostly used magic, so no you dont win. A new setting using steam punk or a pirate campaign setting would add more to the game then dl can.
You said you couldn't think of a class Dragonlance could provide to the rest of Dungeons and Dragons. I said the Tinker could and you were the one who said it could be used in Steampunk, which Dragonlance usually thought of as not (the gnomes in Taladas and Mt. Nevermind can be viewed as such). Now that statement that a steam punk or pirate campaign could add more than Dragonlance is pure opinion and based on what you choose to use. Others might think differently (including myself). Besides, you can argue that gnomes are steampunk ( and tinker would be open to all races), and Minotaur are the pirates in Dragonlance, so there is your steampunk and pirate campaign setting. The Gnomish sidewheeler from spelljammer/dragonlance is as steampunk as you get in D&D.
Besides, I am a Ravenloft fan. Dragonlance is not even in my top 5 settings, so I don't win anything if Krynn is the next campaign setting. Never thought it was a contest anyways.
You said you couldn't think of a class Dragonlance could provide to the rest of Dungeons and Dragons. I said the Tinker could and you were the one who said it could be used in Steampunk, which Dragonlance usually thought of as not (the gnomes in Taladas and Mt. Nevermind can be viewed as such). Now that statement that a steam punk or pirate campaign could add more than Dragonlance is pure opinion and based on what you choose to use. Others might think differently (including myself). Besides, you can argue that gnomes are steampunk ( and tinker would be open to all races), and Minotaur are the pirates in Dragonlance, so there is your steampunk and pirate campaign setting. The Gnomish sidewheeler from spelljammer/dragonlance is as steampunk as you get in D&D.
Besides, I am a Ravenloft fan. Dragonlance is not even in my top 5 settings, so I don't win anything if Krynn is the next campaign setting. Never thought it was a contest anyways.
agreed
Really, you have the whole list already?!? I've only seen names for one-quarter to one-third of the list. Filling in a cycle they started years ago is not evidence. When the whole list is out, maybe you'll have a point. If you do have the full list, please, enlighted us. I'd love to see it.
New DDM set revealed at http://www.ddmspoilers.com/mm_02.php.
Zero Dark Sun friendly minis.
Two Dragonlance friendly minis: Aurak Draconian and Sivak Draconian.
New DDM set revealed at http://www.ddmspoilers.com/mm_02.php.
Zero Dark Sun friendly minis.
Two Dragonlance friendly minis: Aurak Draconian and Sivak Draconian.
The thing is, this set comes out in December, right after the Draconomicon II, which many people think the Draconians will find their way into (I can't help but agree). The next set would probably be out in June/July 2010, around the time the next CS would be coming out, plenty of time for them to release a set with Dark Sun friendly miniatures if they wanted to do so.
The thing is, this set comes out in December. . .
It clearly states on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Manual-Legendary-Miniatures-Expansion/dp/0786953004
and on the WotC page:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndmin/9780786953004
that Legendary Evils is being released in August. Its release date happens around the time on GenCon, when the new Dragonlance novel is coming out and the new campaign setting will finally be confirmed.
It clearly states on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Manual-Legendary-Miniatures-Expansion/dp/0786953004
and on the WotC page:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndmin/9780786953004
that Legendary Evils is being released in August. Its release date happens around the time on GenCon, when the new Dragonlance novel is coming out and the new campaign setting will finally be confirmed.
First of all, now that the full list is out, yes, it looks slightly better for the case of Dragonlance. But only slightly. The EPG material is still a stronger indicator than the LE minis set.
That this set comes out in August actually lowers the likelihood of it being indicative of the next setting. That fact doesn't support your argument at all (which it appears above that you think it does), it weakens it. That is almost a full year from the setting's release itself (it is approximately 10 months before said setting). If this were the set coming out next year just before or just after the 2010 setting is released, this evidence would carry with it much more weight.
That this set comes out in August actually lowers the likelihood of it being indicative of the next setting. That fact doesn't support your argument at all (which it appears above that you think it does), it weakens it. That is almost a full year from the setting's release itself (it is approximately 10 months before said setting). If this were the set coming out next year just before or just after the 2010 setting is released, this evidence would carry with it much more weight.
See. this is the major crux of my argument. If Dragonlance is not being announced this summer, why all the attention on Dragonlance in the summer? Books, contests, miniatures, the anniversary. It's such a critical mass of activity compared to other future settings, all of it centering around the time when they announce the new setting.
It clearly states on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Manual-Legendary-Miniatures-Expansion/dp/0786953004
and on the WotC page:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndmin/9780786953004
that Legendary Evils is being released in August. Its release date happens around the time on GenCon, when the new Dragonlance novel is coming out and the new campaign setting will finally be confirmed.
Huh, I could have sworn I read somewhere that Legendary Evils is coming out much later in the year. I stand corrected. Thank you for the info. (Where the heck did I get December?). I still think that Dragonlance is the 2010 setting, there has been a lot more stuff leaning toward it than Dark Sun at this point.
The EPG material is still a stronger indicator than the LE minis set.
What EPG material? The one-liners about the Thri-Kreen and the Half-Giant? That gives us more likelihood of them being monsters than it does races. If they were in the supporting cast section, I would agree, but a small blurb in there doesn't say anything for Dark Sun, ESPECIALLY because Thri-Kreen and Half-Giants were on Eberron in the last edition.
See. this is the major crux of my argument. If Dragonlance is not being announced this summer, why all the attention on Dragonlance in the summer? Books, contests, miniatures, the anniversary. It's such a critical mass of activity compared to other future settings, all of it centering around the time when they announce the new setting.
I think you just answered your own question there. I cannot understand why all the hype has to be something other than the anniversary. Dragonlance truly is an iconic setting in D&D history. The celebration for the anniversary of the setting should be a big event, totally worthy of all of this hype. The idea that this is somehow definitive evidence of the new campaign setting (for 2010, which is actually the year after the DL anniversary) and not merely the anniversary of a very important setting for the game as a whole, is a little tough for me to grasp.
-As an aside, I don't really care either way as long as it is a fun, well thought out setting, so don't look for any fan boy arguments coming from me. :P
I have a proposal:
Instead of updating an old Campaign Setting to 4E, why not WOTC instead design a brand-new setting that's tailor-made for 4E*? That way, we don't have hordes of fans screaming "they broke it forever!" and other such nonsense.
* Well, other than Points of Light, which really isn't a setting so much as it is a campaign theme.
Because they get tired of hearing, "What about Spelljammer! Why don't you rerelease SpellJammer! I want SpellJammer!" endlessly. Replace SpellJammer with Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Al-Quajim, Maztica, Mytara, Ravenloft, etc.
Have fun :D
I think you just answered your own question there. I cannot understand why all the hype has to be something other than the anniversary. Dragonlance truly is an iconic setting in D&D history. The celebration for the anniversary of the setting should be a big event, totally worthy of all of this hype. The idea that this is somehow definitive evidence of the new campaign setting (for 2010, which is actually the year after the DL anniversary) and not merely the anniversary of a very important setting for the game as a whole, is a little tough for me to grasp.
Book events and contests for the anniversary, I could understand. But to make miniatures for a setting is to imply that people are playing in that setting, thus implying there will be some kind of support for said setting. Even with the monster stats in the boosters, I imagine very few DMs would integrate those monsters into their homebrew games, given their unique look and place in D&D.
Plus (again) the timing of the celebration seems suspect. Sending a Dragonlance fan to GenCon, where the setting's creators will meet them, and the new campaign setting will be announced? You could not get better publicity for a new campaign. What a waste to have Weis and Hickman cavorting with the world's greatest DL fan, and then usher them off the stage to announce that Dragonlance will not be released next year.
Book events and contests for the anniversary, I could understand. But to make miniatures for a setting is to imply that people are playing in that setting, thus implying there will be some kind of support for said setting
Draconomicon II.
Even with the monster stats in the boosters, I imagine very few DMs would integrate those monsters into their homebrew games, given their unique look and place in D&D.
Don't be so sure about that.
Plus (again) the timing of the celebration seems suspect. Sending a Dragonlance fan to GenCon, where the setting's creators will meet them, and the new campaign setting will be announced? You could not get better publicity for a new campaign.
Or a 25th anniversary.
What a waste to have Weis and Hickman cavorting with the world's greatest DL fan, and then usher them off the stage to announce that Dragonlance will not be released next year.
I have a feeling the next campaign's announcement will be made at a different time and place than the (annual) Dragonlance seminar/party, which this year is going to be devoted to 25 years of Dragonlance and the third and final Tracy and Margaret Lost Chronicles novel, Dragons of an Hourglass Mage.
This is a very big deal to the fans of these books. Don't lessen that by saying it won't mean anything if it's not a precursor to the campaign setting being released a whole year later, when it's no longer the anniversary and Draconomicon II is a year old and the new PHB has psionics as its major new deal.
Cheers,
Cam
Book events and contests for the anniversary, I could understand. But to make miniatures for a setting is to imply that people are playing in that setting, thus implying there will be some kind of support for said setting. Even with the monster stats in the boosters, I imagine very few DMs would integrate those monsters into their homebrew games, given their unique look and place in D&D.
But there have been Dragonlance minis in DDM from almost the very beginning. There was a draconian all the way back in Archfiends, not to mention subsequent minis of Mina, Lord Soth, Raistlin and a Free League Ranger that looks suspiciously like Tanis Half-Elven, all of this at a time during which Wizards was not even publishing a Dragonlance setting officially. What makes the inclusion of two miniatures during the anniversary of an iconic setting and along side a very anticipated novel seem so remarkable?
But there have been Dragonlance minis in DDM from almost the very beginning. There was a draconian all the way back in Archfiends, not to mention subsequent minis of Mina, Lord Soth, Raistlin and a Free League Ranger that looks suspiciously like Tanis Half-Elven, all of this at a time during which Wizards was not even publishing a Dragonlance setting officially. What makes the inclusion of two miniatures during the anniversary of an iconic setting and along side a very anticipated novel seem so remarkable?
Why is it so hard for people to realize that WotC DID publish a 3.5e Dragonlance Campaign Setting? Seriously, do I have to make this correction daily or something?
Why is it so hard for people to realize that WotC DID publish a 3.5e Dragonlance Campaign Setting? Seriously, do I have to make this correction daily or something?
Because WoTC didn't publish it. It was published by writers under their own company using the d20 licence and permission from WoTC. And no matter how you spin it, it was 3rd Party like Ravenloft was. (With the exception of the adventure book.)
Because WoTC didn't publish it. It was published by writers under their own company using the d20 licence and permission from WoTC. And no matter how you spin it, it was 3rd Party like Ravenloft was. (With the exception of the adventure book.)
http://www.amazon.com/Dragonlance-Campaign-Setting-Dungeon-Roleplaying/dp/0786930861/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245678928&sr=8-1
Says under publisher Wizards of the Coast.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlacc/869900000
and the link to the wizard site for good measure.
Edit: Beaten to it.
But the rest of the material was 3rd party, I personally never saw that book while I played 3e guy I know now has it, and its just awful the mystic class is so much weaker than a cleric its not even funny. I only flipped through it though.
Don't diminish the work Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions did. Everything they produced underwent the exact same process of publication as any Wizards product, it all had to be 100% okay'd by WotC, it went through the same editors, etc. The only difference was MWP sent stuff to their own printers with their own logo stamped on it, with a big Officially Licensed Wizards of the Coast Product logo on the back.
But the fact of the matter is, WotC DID produce a DLCS in 3e.
Don't diminish the work Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions did. Everything they produced underwent the exact same process of publication as any Wizards product, it all had to be 100% okay'd by WotC, it went through the same editors, etc. The only difference was MWP sent stuff to their own printers with their own logo stamped on it, with a big Officially Licensed Wizards of the Coast Product logo on the back.
But the fact of the matter is, WotC DID produce a DLCS in 3e.
Never saw their 3rd party stuff, but no game I was in ever allowed any 3rd party material with good reason. Besides every dm I had also made their own worlds.
I still say I wish they had had the brass to produce a new setting rather than an old one for 2010, and really hope they give us something new in 2011.
Never saw their 3rd party stuff, but no game I was in ever allowed any 3rd party material with good reason
If you weren't playing Dragonlance, I'm not surprised you didn't see our material. But as it's been said, it was an official license. It wasn't even published under the OGL or d20 License. Our books needed to be approved by Wizards of the Coast, and they've even been referred to in 4E products (the War of the Lance Sourcebook is mentioned in the Draconomicon.)
Cheers,
Cam
If you weren't playing Dragonlance, I'm not surprised you didn't see our material. But as it's been said, it was an official license. It wasn't even published under the OGL or d20 License. Our books needed to be approved by Wizards of the Coast, and they've even been referred to in 4E products (the War of the Lance Sourcebook is mentioned in the Draconomicon.)
Okay. I can understand the confusion and the clarification helps. But technically WoTC did not publish the books, they just licenced it.
Okay. I can understand the confusion and the clarification helps. But technically WoTC did not publish the books, they just licenced it.
Except the first one. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlacc/869900000
Everything else is official product.
Put a cork in it and don't take the licencing of a product for actual writing and production. WotC was a 'publisher' in all the same way say Activision is a publisher is for half the games they sell. They did almost none of the work.
You know, besides developing the setting, editing the setting, and printing the books. I can take a picture of the interior of the book and all of the copyright stuff if you really want, there isn't one iota of mention of Sovereign Press in the entire thing. You know why? Because they didn't make the damn book.
You know, besides developing the setting, editing the setting, and printing the books. I can take a picture of the interior of the book and all of the copyright stuff if you really want, there isn't one iota of mention of Sovereign Press in the entire thing. You know why? Because they didn't make the damn book.
Licensing is not the same as producing the book. If someone else helped work on it then it wasnt wotc material. Lets get back to speculation on 2010 setting so far front runners seem to be DL or Darksun. Though Spell Jammer would be interesting to see and i wouldnt mind Al Quadim. I honestly dont know enough about the other old settings that might be brought back so does anyone else have anything to add.
I think my problem with DL is that the novels complete define the setting. There isnt much you can do inside the setting that hasnt been done in the novels. Where as in Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun and other settings there seems to be a lot more stuff going on not related to whats in the novels.
Okay. I can understand the confusion and the clarification helps. But technically WoTC did not publish the books, they just licenced it.
Right, other than the first book (the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.) So if your benchmark of quality or acceptance or "official" is whether or not WotC published the book, as opposed to whether or not WotC granted the book official status via an approved license contract, then nothing we published is going to bake your cookies.
Cheers,
Cam
You know, besides developing the setting, editing the setting, and printing the books. I can take a picture of the interior of the book and all of the copyright stuff if you really want, there isn't one iota of mention of Sovereign Press in the entire thing. You know why? Because they didn't make the damn book.
Sovereign Press staff designed and wrote the DLCS. Wizards' development team did further work on it to ensure that it met their own standards and because it was written right on the cusp of 3.5's release. Wizards also laid out the book and handled art, etc etc.
Just to make that clear.
Cheers,
Cam
Licensing is not the same as producing the book. If someone else helped work on it then it wasnt wotc material.
I guess you're going to discount all of the freelancers WotC pays to work on their own books?
I think my problem with DL is that the novels complete define the setting. There isnt much you can do inside the setting that hasnt been done in the novels. Where as in Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun and other settings there seems to be a lot more stuff going on not related to whats in the novels.
This is more a case of perception of the setting's value and not an inherent quality of the setting itself. I can easily make the claim that the Realms is no good for running games in because of all the books and fiction and because it keeps changing with every new edition of the rules. But that would also be false.
You wouldn't know, because you've never really taken a look at our products, but there is a great deal of play value in Dragonlance as a game setting and as a home for adventure outside of what is accounted in the novel line. I took lead on writing a three-part trilogy of mega-adventures set in the post-War of Souls era that have nothing whatsoever to do with anything that is told in the novels, and it takes characters from 1st thru 20th level. That's an original campaign right there.
Cheers,
Cam
Why is it so hard for people to realize that WotC DID publish a 3.5e Dragonlance Campaign Setting? Seriously, do I have to make this correction daily or something?
That is really beside the point of my argument. What I was saying is this. Why does it have to be something more than a brand wide celebration of the anniversary of the beloved and iconic Dragonlance world? It wouldn't be any less of a big deal even if they announced that the setting for 2010 (the anniversary of Dark Sun, not Dragonlance btw) would be Dark Sun, would it?
Pro-tip: Try not to get all condescending and
over the whole easily misunderstood publishing thing (or any misunderstanding ancillary to a discussion, for that matter). It undermines your legitimate arguments and makes you look like a whiner.That is really beside the point of my argument. What I was saying is this. Why does it have to be something more than a brand wide celebration of the anniversary of the beloved and iconic Dragonlance world? It wouldn't be any less of a big deal even if they announced that the setting for 2010 (the anniversary of Dark Sun, not Dragonlance btw) would be Dark Sun, would it?
Pro-tip: Try not to get all condescending and
I apologize for the condescension, the thing is, I have made the correction several times in this very same thread, it is kind of a sore spot for me.
BTW, 2011 is the 20th Anniversary of Dark Sun, not 2010
I apologize for the condescension, the thing is, I have made the correction several times in this very same thread, it is kind of a sore spot for me.
BTW, 2011 is the 20th Anniversary of Dark Sun, not 2010
Fair enough.:D And as I've said, I really think either setting would be great and they are both bound to be made at the rate WotC is putting out campaign settings. I really think that uproar and wild speculation over every little hint/release/nod/passing mention is getting out of hand. Nothing against WotC, but in the past they've typically been pretty heavy about their "hints", an "If you've seen one, you'd know it" kind of thing. This anniversary is a pretty big deal for Dragonlance and D&D, enough to warrant all of the hype all on it's own. However, if they decide to make the announcement of Dragonlance as the next campaign setting, I could think of no better time (other than maybe last summer ;) ).
Fair enough.:D And as I've said, I really think either setting would be great and they are both bound to be made at the rate WotC is putting out campaign settings. I really think that uproar and wild speculation over every little hint/release/nod/passing mention is getting out of hand. Nothing against WotC, but in the past they've typically been pretty heavy about their "hints", an "If you've seen one, you'd know it" kind of thing. This anniversary is a pretty big deal for Dragonlance and D&D, enough to warrant all of the hype all on it's own. However, if they decide to make the announcement of Dragonlance as the next campaign setting, I could think of no better time (other than maybe last summer ;) ).
Hey, I am in total agreement here. The 25th Anniversary of DL is a big thing for WotC. Big enough that you don't want to anger a large collection of DL fans by telling them their setting is dead for a while. The announcement would be a nice capstone to the event that MW/TH are going to be at.
They better not be this secretive about 2011...
I would conjecture that DL would get a similar treatment as did FR. My only thoughts on this whole discussion is this. I think any new setting, and I mean totaly new, will be out after they retrofit some of the older ones. I think we will see a totaly brand new setting, but like said previously in this topic, it takes a boat load of time to develop a campaign setting.
IF they give DL the FR treatment I might look into it as I hated the old realms but loved what 4e has done with them. Id still prefer darksun or a new setting. Unfortunatley the new setting is a wash as its already developed.
Due to having missed edtitions 3 and 3.5 Eberron is "new" to me and I love it. It makes DL and FR seem bland. So I would love to see DarkSun brought into the line up. I think 4th would mesh well with it as a setting. There is much untapped potential.
I have a feeling the next campaign's announcement will be made at a different time and place than the (annual) Dragonlance seminar/party, which this year is going to be devoted to 25 years of Dragonlance and the third and final Tracy and Margaret Lost Chronicles novel, Dragons of an Hourglass Mage.
Well, that is a salient piece of information I just learned.
*Spreads his arms out, while the NBC "The more you know" star flashes by a rainbow*
Seriously Cam, I don't mean to belittle the Dragonlance anniversary. I just think that the publicity of the anniversary and the announcement of the new campaign setting would be incredibly synergetic, and would not take away from each other. Sort of like proposing to your girlfriend after leaving your brother's wedding.
Dragonlance (my bet for 2011), Athas/DarkSun (my guess for 2010), Mystara/Hollow World, Al-Qadim, Birthright, Blackmoor (although probably no longer owned), Greyhawk (I hope they never touch this), Jakandor, Kara-Tur, Mahasarpa, Maztica, Rokugan, Savage Coast, and even Planescape and Spelljammer.
I would, however, not mind a brand new world.
As far as I know, WotC no longer has the license to Rokugan. It is once again owned by Alderac and they have released a new edition of the Legend of the Five Rings.
The way that they have designed the Shadowfell and the rest of the cosmology adapts itself very well to create the Domains of Dread in Ravenloft. I'm pretty sure I've already heard something about "domains" located in the Shadowfell. This hints to nicely to Ravenloft.
Dragonlance and Dark Sun could both be interesting when given the 4E treatment.
Dragonlance had an interesting class in 3E which was like a divine sorcerer called the Mystic. They used divine domains, but did not worship gods. I'd be curious to see if they would create a new version of this.
I'm also curious about how they would adapt the Defiling/Preserving mechanics in Dark Sun or if the campaign update would change this idea.
Folks, chill out. As I said in another forum, my Telepahetic powers tell me that the next setting will be DarkRavenLanceScience. See, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft liked Lord Soth so much, they tried to absorb all of Krynn. Krynn was too big, however, so the Dark Powers sought out a world with lots of negative energy to give them enough power to absorb Krynn - Athas. After absorbing Athas and feeding off of all the crushed hopes and cruelty of that world, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft returned to Krynn - to a surprise. The inhabitants of Krynn used Victorian era technology left from the 2ed Ravenloft setting and built upon it while the DPs were away fooling with Athas, and developed steampunk tech to battle monsters and get around. Hence: dragon-riding steampunkers fighting gothic horror hordes.
Have fun :D
I would totally play that campaign setting.
It would either make ALL my players happy, or they would ALL hate it with a fury that rivals the burning core of the sun...
I would totally play that campaign setting.
It would either make ALL my players happy, or they would ALL hate it with a fury that rivals the burning core of the sun...
I would play this as well. Only if his telepathy is tuned in to the right channel!
I would totally play that campaign setting.
It would either make ALL my players happy, or they would ALL hate it with a fury that rivals the burning core of the sun...
Id play it just because I like steam punk.
God I can't take another generic fantasy setting.
I hope it is Darksun or Planescape.
God I can't take another generic fantasy setting.
My guess is even if they revive DL it will have a new twist on it. I might be wrong. But hey let's hope for DarkSun. My guess on PlaneScape is they will just leave that for Dungeon/Dragon mags. Anyone know for sure on this? I am only guessing, based on what it appears they want to do with settings.