Astral plane: same as before. Dominions include:
• Arvandor: previously the 1st layer of Olympus/Arborea.
• Carceri: same. Also known as Tarterus
• Celestia: same. Also known as Seven heavens
• Chernoggar: previously Acheron (mainly the lowest layer). Still contains Clangor and Nishrek
• Hestavar: previously Arcadia. Some of the earthmotes are from other planes: i.e. the Field of Ida is an earthmote from Ysgard's 1st layer, and Aurosion is the Fortress of the Sun from Elysium's 4th layer.
• Kalandurren: possibly the ruins of Elysium. Contains the Citadel Exhalus (previously from the Negative Energy Plane)
• Nine Hells of Baator: same. Contains all of the river Styx (which previously touched several planes)
• Pandemonium: Same
• Pluton: also known as Hades. Was previously just the name of the 3rd layer of Hades.
• Shom: previously Mechanus/Nirvana. Contains illumian ruins, including the city Elirhonda (previously from the Plane of Shadow). The plane has suffered the same fate that Mithardir/Pelion (3rd layer of Arborea, once the home of the Egyptian pantheon) once suffered.
• Tu'narath: same
• Tytherion: previously Gehenna. Contains the crawling castle (from Gehenna) and Tiamat's lair (previously from Avernus, Hell's 1st layer)
Elemental chaos: comprised of the previous elemental planes and limbo. Realms include:
• Abyss: same
• City of Brass: previously resided on the elemental plane of fire
• Sakath-Mazim: previously Muspelheim (2nd layer of Ysgard)
• Kaltenheim: previously Niflheim (2nd layer of Hades)
• Yrnsvellar: remnant of the iron wastes (Kostchtchie's realm on the 23rd layer of the Abyss)
• Zerthadlun: Githzerai monastery previously located in Limbo (which is now part of the Elemental Chaos)
Feywild: previously called the Plane of Faerie. Also draws from parts of the Beastlands and Ysgard (Alfheim, and Nidavellir in the Feywild underdark). Locations include:
• Court of stars: previously resided in Arvandor, Arborea. Also includes the Seelie court (both have been known to drift around). Titania is now called Tiandra, and Oberon is now known as Oran.
• Isle of Dread: from various prime material planes
• Mag Tureah: the unseelie court from Phlegethon, Pandemonium
Shadowfell: previously called the Plane of Shadow. Also incorporates parts of the ethereal plane and plane of negative energy. Locations include:
• Letherna: previously Cabal Macabre from Ocanthus (4th layer of Acheron)
• Moil: previously resided in it's own cursed demiplane
• Fortress of Conclusion: previously resided on the plane of negative energy
• Domains of Dread: previously from the Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft setting)
Some possible causes of for changes:
• (from FRCG p.5) "The Spellplague has drastically altered the cosmos." "Some ancient realms returned that had been thought gone forever (such as the Feywild), and entire planes (such as the Abyss) shifted to a new cosmic structure." Many gods died, left, merged or became exarchs. (FRCG p.62) "During the Spellplague, old dominions fell, were merged, or disappeared entirely, and new ones arose."
• (from FRCG p.73) Asmodeus killed Azuth "and consumed his divine essence. He then ended the Blood War by pushing the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos".
• (from Dungeon Magazine's Savage Tide campaign) Demogorgon's effort to unite his two halves created a savage, multiplanar backlash
• (from Expedition to Demonweb Pits) A plot by Lolth created a pack between Demon lords
• Some cosmologist were (or are now) simply wrong. This is especially likely in regard to creation myths, as no one was around to witness it.
• D&D uses the 'belief affects reality' paradigm, and if everyone now believes that the universe (or a god, or even history) is one way, then it becomes so.
• Gods can alter their planes at a whim
• Asmodeus released the Erinyes from service (allowing them to become angels of various alignments) in exchange for a pact with the succubi
• Yugoloths, foreseeing the loss of their neutral planes, found the Abyss easier to occupy en mass than Hell. They resumed the use of their old name "Daemon", which was pronounced (and eventually spelled) the same as "demon".
Other notes:
• Rob Schwalb stated (here) "almost everything from the Great Wheel cosmology survives in some form or fashion, though recast to fit within the new planar structure"
• 4e takes place over 100 years after 3.5 (at least in Forgotten realms).
• Astral dominions are still separate planes. Their Color Veils (i.e. big portals) make them sometimes *seem* to be floating in the astral sea.
• Each campaign setting technically has it's own overlapping 'version' of these dominions (the overlap of each version seems to be more a matter of belief).
I've researched what I could, but if anyone has better research I'd like to hear it.
I wouldn't say the Abyss contains the elemental planes. Rather, I would say the elemental planes now contains the Abyss.
Correct. Fixed.
For anyone trying to maintain some continuity with 3e cosmology...
...that was your first mistake. :P
For anyone trying to maintain some continuity with 3e cosmology (yes, I know)
Why not just drop 4e cosmology and use 3e cosmology?
...and the Isle of Dread (from various prime material planes).
Where’d you get this idea from? While the IoD has appeared in two separate settings (Mystara and Greyhawk) I never got the idea that it was meant to be in both.
That doesn’t stop me from loving the idea, though. Even if it wasn’t the original intent, the idea of a mist-shrouded, dinosaur-filled island only loosely tethered to the material plane really appeals to me. Idea swiped with my thanks.
What made you think of this?
Why not just drop 4e cosmology and use 3e cosmology?
I stick to the current books/canon/rules for a variety of reasons, including (but not limited to):
1) It benefits the players
2) I don't have to modify adventures and supplements
3) They provide a standardized reference point for discussion
4) I'm a simulationist
5) The fan base is larger
Where’d you get this idea from?
Worlds and Monsters p.39 says:
"It periodically appears in the Feywild, among other places."
...that was your first mistake. :P
Thank you for providing constructive input :p
To use the 4e cosmology, one can either:
1) entirely erase everything that has come before
2) use cognitive dissonance to overlook the changes, or
3) rationalize that something huge (like the spellplague) has fundamentally changed everything (including the cosmology).
WotC evidently desires us to choose #2 for gamist reasons, but as a simulationist this seemed dissatisfying. As such, reconciling 'what was' with 'what is' was worthwhile to me. Such a change also seemed appropriate in a fantastic universe where whole planes can change at a deities' whim and thought is often the basis of reality. Indeed, history itself can even be altered via the right power.
Also, completely discarding my years and years of campaign history (including NPC's, locations, events, etc.) did not seem warranted.
Thank you for providing constructive input :p
To use the 4e cosmology, one can either:
1) entirely erase everything that has come before
2) use cognitive dissonance to overlook the changes, or
3) rationalize that something huge (like the spellplague) has fundamentally changed everything (including the cosmology).
You're assuming a conversion from D&D3.5, which Wizards has repeatedly said was never their intention, and also ignoring a fourth option, which is to just continue using the Great Wheel instead of the D&D4 cosmology.
Also, completely discarding my years and years of campaign history (including NPC's, locations, events, etc.) did not seem warranted.
Look, man, I'm the biggest Planescape fan there is, quote unquote. I own everything ever published for the setting and I'm too much a purist to even set foot on Planewalker.com. I'm not telling you to throw anything away. I'm just wondering why you are trying to convert in the first place.
My advice: if you are interested in incorporating the flavor of the D&D4 cosmology into the Great Wheel, don't start with the Astral Sea and convert back. Start with the Wheel and convert forward.
Somewhere in the infinite possibility of Limbo (perhaps encouraged by a slaadi cult of Tharizdun), a direct portal to the Elemental Planes opens. The stress of the conflicting realities becomes too great, and the boundary between the two planes shatters, setting off a fractal pattern of destruction that reduces the order of the inner planes to a great whorl of chaotic elemental energy. On the outer planar side of the portal, the Great Wheel buckles under the strain and planes merge, split, are destroyed, and are created. Most notably, the mouth of the Abyss slips off the Wheel and finds new moorings in the Elemental Chaos when the portal in Limbo finally closes. The extra-dimensional geometry of the astral and elemental planes fails to support itself with the transitive triangle completed, and they collapse into a single vast sea, sharing aspects of both parent planes.
Personally, I prefer the new cosmology for the purposes of a non-Planescape game. I fully intend to run a D&D4 Planescape game at some point, and it will use the Great Wheel without any mention of primordials or the Abyss in the Elemental Chaos. But for my week-to-week D&D4 game, the Astral Sea suits me just fine. Planescape is the Great Wheel, and I'd never try to convert it to fit the Astral Sea, but on the other face of the same coin, I'd never try to convert D&D4 back to the Great Wheel.
Having said that, though, I think the biggest hurdle is the Blood War between the devils and demons. That felt like a large piece of the planar settings of the past, but I can’t see a way to bring it in to the 4e cosmology.
The main problem is that devils are locked away into a smaller region of the Astral Sea while the demons have free rain in a suburb of the Elemental Chaos. Even if you allow that the Astral Sea could touch the Elemental Chaos (which I don’t take for granted or even actually approve of), there’s still two planes worth of “stuff” between the regions. And if, like me, you prefer the Middle World to be the battleground between gods and primordials without the option of going around the World to reach the enemy, you have an even larger barrier between the two sides.
So, how do you get imprisoned devils in the Nine Hells to carry on a war with the demons of the Abyss?
You're assuming a conversion from D&D3.5
I listed not converting (i.e. "entirely erase everything that has come before") as one of the options (one that I won't be using).
ignoring a fourth option, which is to just continue using the Great Wheel instead of the D&D4 cosmology.
I am not ignoring that... I addressed it in post #7 of this thread.
I'm just wondering why you are trying to convert in the first place.
I believe we've covered that several times already, and besides that is not the point of the thread.
But thanks again for thread-crapping.
If your universe agrees with *both* models, you’ve doubled the number of resources you can draw on for planar development.
Indeed, the 4e designers themselves appear to still be drawing on earlier resources. I'm guessing that many of the 3e planar locations will eventually appear in 4e.
I think the biggest hurdle is the Blood War
The designers stated that the blood war is over, or at least relegated to such a minor significance that no one pays attention anymore. I figure there is a lot of reasons it could become moot after a cosmic re-org.
I listed not converting (i.e. "entirely erase everything that has come before") as one of the options (one that I won't be using).
That's... not the same thing, but fair enough -- you've addressed it. I should have read more closely before posting.
For your information, I believe that Yrnsvellar, the Steel Glacier, is a reference to the AD&D2 Abyssal realm of Kostichchie, the frost giants' demon prince. There's a blurb about it on one of the posters from Planes of Chaos.
we can imagine that some sorcerous Galileo published, between 3.5 and 4e, the results of his decades of study of the planes with his magical telescope and overturned centuries of accepted wisdom.
Excellent point. I had thought about that (i.e. that earlier D&D cosmologist were simply wrong), but I focused more on the spell-plague creating TEOTWAWKI. A combination of both is certainly possible.
The fact that creation myths have changed can almost certainly be credited with lack of information (i.e. no one was around back then). They did the same thing between earlier editions too.
I believe that Yrnsvellar, the Steel Glacier, is a reference to the AD&D2 Abyssal realm of Kostichchie
Ah... the glacial-ridden iron wastes. Good call. Added.
Excellent point. I had thought about that (i.e. that earlier D&D cosmologist were simply wrong), but I focused more on the spell-plague creating TEOTWAWKI. A combination of both is certainly possible.
The fact that creation myths have changed can almost certainly be credited with lack of information (i.e. no one was around back then). They did the same thing between earlier editions too.
A few problems of course there were canon sources of knowledge i.e. Rary, Elminster, various wizards, every member of the thayan Theocracy or whatever ocracy they were who all enjoyed travelling to other realms. Several books take place in those specific planes from the FR, Spelljammer, Dragonlance, Planescape, greyhawk series. That doesn't even include crossovers.
With that problem you have to either assume that there was a cosmic change that created huge rifts in the cosmoverse sending planes shifting or modern cosmotists are confused and wrong. When you look at previous editions there were some gaffes like the edition of certain non-credited mythos, but the actual planes didn't change to much. Our way of understanding them did we went from spiral to grid to wheel. But the position of where the planes are did change so I have to assume they would consider more apropos to have a cosmic disjunction be the explanation rather than my suggestion which is that once the really powerful magic disappeared the ability to travel to distant planes did too so therefore you have to rely on three crazy guys to tell you what the universe looks like.
This is good although incomplete (only by timing), I suspect there will be more planes added to this list in the next few months, and someone will want to explain Ravenloft, which I suspect will be in the same bpoat as the isle of dread.
the position of where the planes are did change so I have to assume they would consider more apropos to have a cosmic disjunction
I agree, but it seems like the arrangement of the planes was based on alignments (i.e. beliefs) rather than a physical position (which wouldn't be applicable anyway, since many of the planes were of infinite size).
i.e. How do you 'move' a plane? Isn't more just a matter of altering the entrances?
i.e. How do you 'move' a plane? Isn't more just a matter of altering the entrances?
Well, that's the rub, isn't it? All descriptions of any cosmology are equally accurate because planes don't exist in relation to one other. The Great Wheel is just a metaphor. It is a metaphor backed with evidence -- the bed of the Styx, for example, or the arrangement of the gate-towns in the Outlands -- but in a reality where things are the way they are only because people believe them to be, wouldn't you expect the evidence to support the prevailing metaphor?
But then, I anticipate that D&D4 is going to do its best to throw this concept out the window in an effort to make the Astral Sea navigable by sailing ship without requiring dungeon masters to engage their players in deep philosophical discussions. So in light of that, no, it's not just a matter of altering the entrances. Planes will undoubtedly have some kind of "coordinates" in the new system.
if you pick up Grand History Of The Realms,
and turn to page 3, and go to the second to last paragraph,
you'll see that previous editions worth of material went into that book.
then you pick up FR Campaign,
and turn to [can't find the page #], and read the little brown box,
you'll see that GHotR is going to transfer into 4e.
Conclusion:
It's all one cosmology, just that 4e is way way waayyy out in the Deep Astral.
I anticipate that D&D4 is going to... make the Astral Sea navigable by sailing ship
Yeah... kinda cool.
Planes will undoubtedly have some kind of "coordinates" in the new system.
Certainly, but the term 'plane' still denotes a different level of existence. If a location is simply a landmass floating in the Astral sea, it would not qualify as a 'plane'.
From the Manual of the Planes preview:
"All astral dominions are clearly delineated from the surrounding fundamental plane. These are planes in every sense of the term."
and
"In the vastness of the Elemental Chaos lie scores of elemental realms. Some of these, such as the Abyss, are differentiated enough from the surrounding elemental maelstrom to be planes within a plane. Others are specific locales within the chaos."
Astral space has always been used to reach other planes... but now the paradigm is much less subtle about it. But WotC still seems to be considering these locations as separate levels of existence.
As for the Abyss moving and the Inner Planes (minus plane of shadow and prime) becoming the Elemental Chaos that might need more explaining. The Abyss no longer connects with the river Styx nor does it seem to have infinite layers, just infiniite domains within the plane itself.
Forgotten Realms handles this by tying it to Asmodeus' rise to godhood and having him force the Abyss out of the Astral Sea which severed its connections to other planes and its passage also caused the Inner Planes to merge into the Elemental Chaos.
It's possible this upheaval also caused many of the other planes to break their linkage and become seperated. This may mean that other planes not shown in 4e are still there, just with no known ways into them currently. Also in 4e most of the gods seem to have done what Lolth did in Forgotten Realms and split their domains off of the shared planes and made them their own domains in the Astral Sea. This also allows them to more easily create connections to their allied dieties' domains without having to worry about intervening planes.
It's also possible to still use the Great Wheel and just change some of the lore on creatures. Demons would go back to being Immortals (Outsiders) since the Abyss isn't in the Inner Planes, and the primordials can just as easily be form the Inner Planes, perhaps in previously closed off domains. The ethereal could return and behave similar to the shadowfell. The Feywild could be like in Forgotten Realms and always there just hard to reach before but now 'returned'.
The 3.x Manual of the Planes covered alternate cosmologies outside the Great Wheel one (and Forgotten Realms had a non-Great Wheel one in 3.x). the default cosmology is just there for those who don't want to create their own and allows some fluff for creatures.
The 'Great Wheel' wasn't a physical map but a logical map of the planes. It was organized as such because the first layer (aka subplane) of each outer plane had connections to the first layer of the 'adjoining' planes and generally no others but the astral/concordant opposition (Outlands name in 1e). This made it easy to arrange the planes on a schematic by making htem a ring/wheel/square since they linked to each other. This doesn't mean they were physically next to each other.
It's also possible to still use the Great Wheel and just change some of the lore on creatures. Demons would go back to being Immortals (Outsiders) since the Abyss isn't in the Inner Planes, and the primordials can just as easily be form the Inner Planes, perhaps in previously closed off domains. The ethereal could return and behave similar to the shadowfell. The Feywild could be like in Forgotten Realms and always there just hard to reach before but now 'returned'.
The 3.x Manual of the Planes covered alternate cosmologies outside the Great Wheel one (and Forgotten Realms had a non-Great Wheel one in 3.x). the default cosmology is just there for those who don't want to create their own and allows some fluff for creatures.
You're forgetting the physics of it. Tthe great wheel is a metaphor but it is a metaphor for predominant strand theory thinking before recent times (and if you want to know the idea of the cosmic wheel comes from several sources both historic and fictional) and of course fractal patterning. The guy who deserves credit for first using the great wheel in fiction is often ridiculed for his vancian ways: Jack Vance
The cosmos is actually more of a linkage of dimensions, wormholes, pocket universes, planes and other stuff. Grazel is right in saying that it is a simplified way of looking at the universe since the understanding of the universe is beyond comprehension. That said, let's comprehend part of it (well at least the D&D portion)
A plane in linear theory works such that it crosses over another plane at one infinite line Another plane may bisect that infinite plane and meet the two of them at one point. I'm sure you'll see this in algebra talking about x,y,and z axis. Theoretecially you can have an infinite number of planes, in infinite directions crossing through an infinite number of planes. In D&D the idea was a little bit more complex, see each plane represented a complex 3-dimensional setting. And every other plane also represented a complex three dimensional setting. Then one plane represented our universe, lets call this the black thread plane, or prime material. Other planes meet and touch our plane at various points and lines and at each juncture is a planet (a campaign setting). Depending on how close the planets are to each other and how close the planes, each different plane may impact settings differently. Maybe Hades is strong in one plane but weak in another, or hades is strong somewhere on the prime material but week on any other. Remember since there are infinite planes of infinite size of infinite 3-dimensions then a plane could cross another plane at any point but be so close as to seem as if they are touching. In Sci fi that is usually called alternate reality because you cross from this planet to the next through that plane and discover that things are changed but only slightly (think Sliders). Now these planets can be in the same universe or on the same plane that's not readily discernible. There are also super distant planes that never cross the prime but sometimes their echoes are felt (like the far realms)
Then back in the day these crazy guys came up with the corkscrew theory of the universe how time is more like a spring than a line. So the cosmos took on the appearance of the spring, and the planes sort of wrap around that spring. That in effect made it possible for a prime material plane to be crossed by the same plane or almost crossed more than once. Then these other guys said hey there are these things that actual cross boundaries and are not really part of our universe, we'll call them strings. (not string theory of modern physics but think pseudo physics of star trek) These strings sort of connected the universe in odd ways. They can touch the prime material in one place to a plane that exists in some other part of the whatever you want to call it that would never touch prime, and this string doesn't actually touch the other planes. These are wormholes of the most strange design.
On top of that is multidimensions. Most of you who have seen star trek realize multidimensional creatures live in a dimension that is superimposed on our own but because of the way we see the world and they see the worlds neither interacts. Pocket universes are much harder to explain and I will forgo that torture.
The idea of the planes is that the prime material plane is the balancer, the key thread. The wars existed between the other threads before man lived in prime, and the wars spilled into the pristine unused prime, which is why all of the gods are given credit for creating everything. In most pantheistic cults, the gods are somehow related to one another either through fmily ties or through aspect relativeness (shark head on human body is still related to monkey head on human body) But D&D and others created a universe where gods weren't related. They were from multiple dimensions as were other creatures. But the families brokeup, went their separate ways to friendly planes, and thus you have human like creatures in several planes, elf like in several and so on. (well at least that was how these things were explained to me by some of the guys who did the creating) Anyways a god comes to power by stealing another gods portfolio. What that really means is by stealing the other gods power, you are stealing his power in the prime material plane, something about prime is important in the multiverse, and in order to become a god you have to find that power in the prime material. Hence why demons constantly ship themselves to the prime.
Anyways sorry this was long, thought I might shed a little light on how the cosomos was intended to work.
Obviously, it isn't euclidean. But the planes, especially the astral, never really have been.
I do admit that I like seeing the astral through a "sea" metaphor much more than the previous edition's description of the astral through a "space" metaphor. Sailing on a boat in an ephemeral, eternally misty, but perfectly calm ocean seems like good stock and fare for a fantasy game. Floating through space (complete with spaceships!) with a friggin' air cord attached to you, on the other hand, is stretching it for me.
The point of the old Astral Plane was that it was the boundless limits of the mind. It wasn't meant to be a full plane like the Prime or the Outer Planes. It, like the ethereal and Plane of Shadow, were transitory planes. They were the 'glue' between the planes that allowed travel.
Portals and vortexes create a wormhole tunnel through the Astral/Ethereal to another plane making for a shortcut journey (think Stargates and wormholes to travel through space inside the Prime). The silver cord travel is what happens when you project your soul/mind into the Astral allowing you fairly free travel outside the wormholes but still anchored to the Prime (or wherever your body is). If you take your body with you through a portal to the Astral, a 'shoreline', or some other method there is no silver cord since your mind and body are still together.
In 4e they've simplified the transitory planes to make them easier to deal with for game purposes. They've eliminated the ethereal entirely and made the Astral less important since now most travel between planes is done through portals and vortexes. The Astral is now a 'last resort' method of travel.
This works for 'hiding' many of the missing Outer Planes since something has happened to limit access to the Astral (in Forgotten Realms most portals have stopped working, severly limiting planar travel). Those planes and domains could still be there but currently no known entry points are found.
As for the Great Wheel and the Astral even with the great wheel cosmology inside the Astral you didn't come up to a wall that led to the planes and saw them connecting. You still found portals scattered in the Astral that lead to various points within the planes, many of them one-way. Getting back to the Astral was often trickier than getting into an Outer Plane.
Also look at the Dragonlance cosmology. There's plenty of hints that it was 'bigger' than the mortals of Krynn realized. What they called the Abyss was just Takhisis/Tiamat's domain within the Abyss. It was pretty heavily indicated that the rest of the Great Wheel was there but the gods (or their aspects within Krynn at least) limited the mortal's access to the planes.
Spelljammer was almost a cosmology of its own since it added a new transitory plane (the Phlogiston) to allow a way other than the Deep Shadow to cross between material planes. In Spelljammer those were visualized as crystal spheres and the stars in the sky were the portals between a sphere/Prime and the Phlogiston.
Much of what we see the cosmology and extent of the planes has less to do with the literal makeup of reality and more to do with our perception of it, and the restrictions on our extent of travel by the gods (or something even beyond them, like Ao in Forgotten Realms). Even the Far Realm is just another Outer Plane and may actually just be a different perspective on the chaotic madness that is the Great Wheel's Pandemonium.
As for the Abyss moving and the Inner Planes (minus plane of shadow and prime) becoming the Elemental Chaos that might need more explaining. The Abyss no longer connects with the river Styx nor does it seem to have infinite layers, just infiniite domains within the plane itself.
Forgotten Realms handles this by tying it to Asmodeus' rise to godhood and having him force the Abyss out of the Astral Sea which severed its connections to other planes and its passage also caused the Inner Planes to merge into the Elemental Chaos.
Good info... thanks! From the FRCG (p.73):
"The destruction of Dweomerheart sent the dying Azuth (a patron deity of mages) into Asmodeus’s fiery domain. The archdevil killed him and consumed his divine essence. He then ended the Blood War by pushing the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos."
pick up FR Campaign,
and turn to [can't find the page #], and read the little brown box,
you'll see that GHotR is going to transfer into 4e.
Conclusion:
It's all one cosmology
Correct. FRCG p.43:
"Dungeon Masters who are interested in the definitive history of the FORGOTTEN REALMS world are encouraged to review the Grand History of the Realms"
So continuity is definitively maintained (indeed, FRCG p.40 even gives reasons for one's 3.5 character to be present in 4.0)... so this thread has merit for those running a completely canon game.
speaking of the planes as well as demons and devil, what happened to the Yogoloths in 4ed?
Worlds and Monsters (p.67) talks about this issue:
(abbreviated)
"They have dropped the schismatic -loth from their surnames: Mezzoloths and nycaloths are now mezzodemons and nycademons."...
"This is an intentional step backward to the origins of these creatures, first introduced back in 1978 in the Vault ofthe Draw adventure. Their names were always pronounced as if they were demons"...1
"In the absence of a neutral evil plane in the new cosmology, folding yugoloths in with either demons or devils seemed the logical solution. Their nature is more demonic than devilish, and so they ended up in the Abyss"2
1) Yugoloths were originally called "daemons" (example: Mezzodaemon and nycadaemon), which is pronounced the same as "demon" (i.e. they are phonetically identical). This was changed to "Yugoloth" in 2e to appease religious groups.
2) The paradigm for 4e is that devils often have humanlike features, while demons look more monstrous.
Also I don't really see the Oinoloth, Baernaloths, Altraloths (or 'The General' for that matter) working for others.
Sidenote: Albeit not being religious myself I actually prefer the Tanari, Baatezu and Yoguloth nicks over, devil, demons and daemons, the last three just sound so mundane in my ears.
I don't really see the Oinoloth, Baernaloths, Altraloths (or 'The General' for that matter) working for others.
I still plan to have a few Daemons outside of the Abyss, like on Pluton in Astral sea (Charon, Marraenoloths, a few Arcanaloths, etc.), and maybe some in Niflheim in the Elemental Chaos.
Albeit not being religious myself I actually prefer the Tanari, Baatezu and Yoguloth nicks over, devil, demons and daemons, the last three just sound so mundane in my ears.
But I always think of an Eastern European vehicle whenever I hear "Yugoloth" ;)
The cataclysmic shifting of the Great Wheel tossed the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos taking most of the demons with it. The yugoloth race was split with a large portion pulled along with the Abyss while the rest remained in the Astral Sea.
Asmodeus, seeing that his demonic foes were gone and the Blood War over, moved quickly and ordered his massed armies to slaughter the yugoloth mercenaries serving alongside them. Caught off-guard with their schemes thrown into turmoil by the planar re-alignment, the yugoloths were decimated by the infernal armies. The survivors scattered into hiding or fled to join their brethren in the Abyss.
The demon princes were too focused on their own feuds to focus on eliminating the other fiends, and saw a use for the remaining yugoloth mercenaries in their clashing armies. And so the yugoloths survive forming new plots amongst the demonic factions, hoping to one day return to their position of power.
In the spirit of this thread, here's how I would explain the changes to yugoloths between 3e and 4e
Nice. Here was my own reckoning on the matter:
Certain powers often had to bind together if order survive the spell-plague (and the changes/god deaths that followed). This was especially so for neutral powers. Foreseeing the loss of the neutral planes, the Yugoloths initially sought to strike a deal with Asmodeus (now a God), but negotiating with him during a time of emergency is an extremely unenviable position. They eventually found the Abyss much easier to occupy than Hell.
Over time (1.5 centuries), people's belief in the Yugoloths changed, and they once again started referring to them as "Daemons" (pronounced, and eventually spelled, the same as "demon"). This belief, and their exposure to the abyss, helped shape them into what they are today.
4e does many Teleportation effects via Feywild (no longer the astral plane).
As noted, 4e does many Shadowwalk (ethereal) effects via Shadowfell.
"It actually turned out to be a lot easier than I expected to take Eberron’s unusual cosmology and fit it to the universal chassis. You’ll see how it all turned out with the release of the Eberron Campaign Guide this summer, but I’ll give you a teaser. You know how Eberron’s planes all have both names and titles? Like “Kythri, the Churning Chaos” or “Fernia, the Sea of Fire”? Well, how about “Thelanis, the Feywild” or “Dolurrh, the Shadowfell”? Fernia and Risia become regions within the Elemental Chaos while a lot of other planes are now Astral dominions. We managed not to lose any of the plane names from 3rd Edition Eberron."
I can see the advantage of combining the two cosmologies. There are buckets of resources for fleshing out the planes of the Great Wheel already available as cheap .pdfs. At the same time, all future WotC 4e products that develop the plains are going to be about the new 4-point cosmology. If your universe agrees with *both* models, you’ve doubled the number of resources you can draw on for planar development.
Having said that, though, I think the biggest hurdle is the Blood War between the devils and demons. That felt like a large piece of the planar settings of the past, but I can’t see a way to bring it in to the 4e cosmology.
The main problem is that devils are locked away into a smaller region of the Astral Sea while the demons have free rain in a suburb of the Elemental Chaos. Even if you allow that the Astral Sea could touch the Elemental Chaos (which I don’t take for granted or even actually approve of), there’s still two planes worth of “stuff” between the regions. And if, like me, you prefer the Middle World to be the battleground between gods and primordials without the option of going around the World to reach the enemy, you have an even larger barrier between the two sides.
So, how do you get imprisoned devils in the Nine Hells to carry on a war with the demons of the Abyss?
This was a major problem for me as well, but I'm basically just treating it like the Blood War is still going, only now it is expanded. Instead of being devils vs demons, it is now Angels/Devils vs Elementals/Demons. It may not be quite the same, but I feel that if used well it could be be just as "epic". And the politics of the planes could still be a huge deal for a 4e planescape-type campaign, between the war between the Divine and the Elemental and in-fighting amongst the two sides as well.
Fun stuff, and far more workable for the games I want to run
The thread seens to focus on going the other way though, so I'll shift my focus to that...
I imagine that Guardinals would probably reside somewhere in the feywild, but I'm unsure what their place in 4E would be.
I've always found Yugoloths interesting, but I don't have the history with them that most D&D players do; so they don't have a sentimental place in my heart. I started the bulk of my D&D experiences with 3E; by that time the Yugoloths (at least from what I could tell) had already started to lose their traction; they weren't featured in very many products.
I'd like to try to figure out how to fit Modrons into the 4E cosmology. I found an interest in them via old Dragon articles and some old school D&D info which I researched.
The bloodwar does still exist in 4E; the background story for 4E Grazzt is evidence of that. I'm not exactly sure to what extent it still exists though. Angels could potentially be on both sides of the conflict since they are no longer bound to good alignments.
The 4E Forgotten Realms setting takes the stance that when Asmodeus ascended to godhood, he used a portion of his power to push the demons and the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos and end the bloodwar (IIRC.) I realize that not everyone plays FR (I don't,) but it's an interesting idea.
One a side note: No smudging issues with my Manual of the Planes! I'm very happy about that. My core books continue to slowly vanish from their pages, but Manual of the Planes doesn't.
Worlds and Monsters (p.67) talks about this issue:
(abbreviated)
[i]"They have dropped the schismatic -loth from their surnames: Mezzoloths and nycaloths are now mezzodemons and nycademons."...
What's funny is that it didn't take them long to immediately abandon that self-professed rationale for renaming yugoloths. They did as said with the mezzoloth and nycaloth, to "daemon", but The canoloth is still the canoloth, and the arcanoloth was entirely renamed without any similarity in name to its prior incarnations.
I've always found Yugoloths interesting, but I don't have the history with them that most D&D players do; so they don't have a sentimental place in my heart. I started the bulk of my D&D experiences with 3E; by that time the Yugoloths (at least from what I could tell) had already started to lose their traction; they weren't featured in very many products.
Likewise. I didn't play D&D till 3e either, and I wrote a decent chunk of the exposure they had in Dragon and Dungeon during the edition. I found the 'loths were more interesting than the other fiends. Of course, for whatever reason, WotC never did much with them, and seems to have further minimized them in 4e (at least in my view continuing a trend with many creatures that the mid to late 3.x design team largely ignored).
The canoloth is still the canoloth
Yup (4e Manual of the Planes, p.120). But then, Canoloths never had a previous daemonic name... they first appeared in 3e.
and the arcanoloth was entirely renamed without any similarity in name to its prior incarnations.
Where did you find that?
Yup (4e Manual of the Planes, p.120). But then, Canoloths never had a previous daemonic name... they first appeared in 3e.
They first appeared in 2e.
Where did you find that?
4e MotP renamed arcanoloths to ravaasta.
They first appeared in 2e.
That's what I thought, but Wikepedia placed their appearance with the 3e MMIII. If you know where they appeared before that, you should cite your source (and maybe even update the Wikepedia entry). Edit: found it... Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II, p.126
Regardless, my point was that they did not have a name prior to 'Canoloth'.
4e MotP renamed arcanoloths to ravaasta.
Ah. MotP p.137:
"Many planar scholars believe that raavastas were once demons known as arcanaloths. According to sages, the demon lords drove the arcanaloths out of the Abyss due to their conniving ways, and it is from these demons that raavastas and rakshasas descend."
I had merely assumed the raavasta was just another type of rakshasa, but this is interesting. I wonder if they are also related now to the Rakasta (cat-men from The Isle of Dread)
That's what I thought, but Wikepedia placed their appearance with the 3e MMIII. If you know where they appeared before that, you should cite your source (and maybe even update the Wikepedia entry). Edit: found it... Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II, p.126
They're featured in the 3e MM3, but they appeared prior to that point in the 3e Manual of the Planes (I have the original illustration of them in that book hanging on my wall actually). And before the 3e MotP they appeared in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium II. p126-127
And for adding to the article, I'd love to help out on that one. However I've held off on editing the yugoloth entry, because some busybody (a specific one on wiki) would probably revert any edits I made as having a conflict of interest, since I'm listed among the various authors in the references section.
If I may:
First, The Fiendish Codices of 3.5 are some of the best fluff we've had on the subject of fiends and the Blood War in recent years, so much of this draws heavily from them. Notably, we will go back to the very beginning.
The Pact Primeval story can be discarded as Baatezu propaganda, with the generally more reliable account of the Daemons taken as our starting point, modified slightly for the inclusion of the Obyriths in the Abyss.
The planes form, and the first forms of planar life come into being. You have your various proto-planars on the Upper Planes (those never interested me very much, but I have some working knowledge. Note that some things may have their established order of events rearranged. I do not have all my source materials present at the moment, and this is just a quick draft of how one might reconcile a Planescape-ish cosmology with 4e), the ancestors of the Slaadi and Modrons also come into play. The Obyriths come into being in the Abyss, the Ancient Baatorians rise in the Hells, and the Baernoloths form in Hades.
It is around this time that the first godlings also came into existence, though it would not be until life begins to flourish on the Prime Material that they exert much true importance.
While the Obyriths explore the infinity of the Abyss, and the Baatorians develop in whatever way they would, the Baernoloths advance. They take over Gehenna and Carceri, finding them empty, and perfect for experimentation. They create the Daemons, who are taught much before the Baernoloths retreat from prominence. The Gerheleths are created shortly thereafter, and the Baernoloth who created them is cast out with his creations to Carceri. The Daemons continue in the tradition of their creators, and soon they encounter the Baatorians and Obyriths. To the Obyriths, they bring the gift of creation, helping the Obyriths create the first Tanar'ri and showing that there is a whole multiverse out there to destroy. Others go to Baator and find themselves teaching the Ancient Baatorians, helping to engineer the first Baatezu that would overthrow their creators before turning toward the notion of subjugating the whole of creation.
As the Tanar'ri begin to multiply faster than the Obyriths expected, they begin to take over the Abyss, and raiding parties of Tanar'ri make first contact with squads of Baatezu. The result is not pretty, and survivors report their findings, whipping their kindred into frenzy. It is about this time that (and this is merely a quirk of my thoughts, and certainly not suggested anywhere), that the truly unique devils and demons - the original Lords of the Nine and Abyssal Lords arise. However, not a one is a true demon or devil.
The Baernoloths have been keeping tabs on things, and have decided to give their successors a bit of a nudge toward the goal they were hoping for - an all out war. Perhaps fifteen Baernoloths embark outward from seculsion, nine to the Hells and six or more to the Abyss. They, through their already ancient and fearsome powers, establish themselves as the ones in charge. The most powerful in the Hells calls himself Asmodeus, and works in concert with his fellows, bringing the Baatezu to their ultimate missions - the conversion of souls and the destructive carnage of the Blood War. They all understand that at different times will they need to execute longstanding plans that will destroy or harm certain among them, but that this is not something to worry about, as it is for the sake of the experiment.
Those Baernoloths who embarked to the Abyss created for themselves those most fearsome identities as Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Orcus, Dagon, Malcanthet, and others. Dagon chose to assume the form of an Obyrith, so as to command allegiance from those disaffected demons as he could, to further the ends of his fellows. Demogorgon deposed Obox-Ob (the greatest of those few Obyriths who had managed to distinguish themselves) in the final coup that established Tanar'ri dominance in the Abyss and immediately began to make war with Graz'zt and Orcus, according to plan. Other Tanar'ri lords emerged, but have not been able to gain as much power, largely because they do not realise that their betters are not actually Tanar'ri.
With the Baernoloths at work on the elite political tier of the Blood War, the Daemons engineer their designs on the lower ranks, even going so far as to the Upper Planes to incite the residents there to take up arms against one side or another. The result is a messy and protracted conflict, drawing in participants from all parts of the cosmos, designed for reasons only the most powerful lords in the Abyss and the Hells know (It is reasonable to think that this may be an experiment in breaking creatures that are not purely of any alignment, and seeing which part of their alignment is the true facet which defines their existence).
Regardless, things continue like this for untold millennia, and all along the Prime Material has been developing. The godlings become full-fledged deities, and some Primes find their way to the (to them) undiscovered city of Sigil. They quickly find out from natives that The Lady of Pain has administered Sigil for so long as any memory has existed in the whole of the multiverse. Knowledge of the Baernoloths is essentially nonexistent to most beings, but there are some Planars who suggest that The Lady is some sort of primeval planar being who has taken to the task of administrating Sigil (something entirely possible for a Baernoloth, as it would fit into one of their convoluted schemes).
The Baatezu harvest souls, the Tanar'ri destroy, the Archons and Angels and other Upper Planars disagree, but generally try to remain peaceful. The Daemons continue their plotting, with the Baernoloths guiding them still, even though they do not know it. The Ancient Baatorians and Obyriths have mostly faded into obscurity, and the Blood War has escalated into new levels of cruelty.
And then, Lolth becomes a goddess, status that she had not enjoyed since being ousted from the court of Corellon. This is unexpected by the Baernoloths, and consequently they take steps. The presence of an unfriendly, unexpected, and uncontrolled goddess in the midst of their grand scheme is not something they had anticipated. While it soon becomes apparent that Lolth is too disinterested to truly pose a threat to their plans, the Baernoloths have already set in motion their counterplan, and it will play out.
The Reckoning of Hell shakes everything up on the Baatezu end of the Blood War - Bael deposes Zariel, Levistus is returned to power, ousting the only true Baatezu to hold power over a Hell (besides the newly instated Bael), Mammon and Baalzebul undergo transformations, Belial sets Fierana as the new authority in Phlegethos, and Moloch is replaced by Malagard. It is not long after that Malagard is replaced by Glasya (Fierana and Glasya are neither Baernoloth or Baatezu, but hybrid).
During this time, Orcus is killed and enacts a slaying of gods as Tenebrous, before finally returning to his original form. This killing of gods has profound effects on the multiverse, and even those gods that did not die at the hands of Tenebrous are weakened.
With Bael's focus on the Blood War, things return to a fevered pitch, and Asmodeus begins making the final preparations in the plans that stemmed from the ascension of Lolth - he would become a god himself, and thus cast all into a whole new structure.
This comes about, and involves a series of shocking (to those not in the know) actions. Asmodeus releases the Erinyes from their service to Baator, killing those that do not return to the Upper Planes. Malcanthet approaches Asmodeus and hands over mastery of the Succubi, assured that when Asmodeus ascends into godhood that the Succubi would be enslaved to Baator. Graz'zt brings petitioners from the Abyss to be sacrificed on behalf of Asmodeus. The Blood War seems to come to a halt, as the Tanar'ri and Baatezu appear to put a united front up against the Upper Planes. This is all a farce designed to allow Asmodeus to ascend without being noticed right away, and it works.
Asmodeus, now a deity (and by virtue of the long-established plans he and his Baernoloth bretheren have been carrying out, powerful throughout nearly half of the planes), begins undoing what is convenient to him. The Elemental planes are cast into confusion, taking with them Mechanus and Limbo, coalescing into the Elemental Chaos. This new realm sucks down The Abyss, Carceri, Gehenna, and Hades. The latter three become enfolded in the Abyss, which settles at the core of the Elemental Chaos, as the Modrons and Slaadi are slaughtered in great numbers by the Tanar'ri. The Daemons are dragged in as well, and they begin attempts to meld into the society of the Abyssal fiends, planning and plotting their ascension into power among the Tanar'ri.
The Positive and Negative Energy planes collide, showering the Upper Planes with the effects of such a catastrophic meeting. The Upper Planes coalesce, with the Archons being pitched out and transformed within the Elemental Chaos. The Eladrin escape into the newly created Feywild where they are transformed before many of them cross over to the Prime. The Plane of Shadow is changed, becoming the Shadowfell, and the Astral Plane is transformed into the Astral Sea, wherein the newly combined Upper Planes and the Nine Hells, among other domains, now exist.
The Blood War, as a result of this upheaval, grinds to a halt as the factions involved get their bearings and prepare to resume the eternal struggle. New lines will be drawn, though, for the corrupting influence of the Abyss will transform the new denizens of the Elemental Chaos, as the Tanar'ri begin their assault on the domains in the Astral Sea. The Daemons, forced to lurk the shadows and commonly lumped in with the Tanar'ri now, plot and await the day when they can resume their roles as the controllers of this conflict, unaware that their predicament is part of the grand experiment of their creators. The domains of the Astral Sea brace for attack and marshal their forces with the expectation of continued war.
Asmodeus, for his part, seeks to complete the original mission of the Baernoloths - complete control over everything, through any means necessary.
Yeah. It's a lot. It's not completely consistent with 3.5 and traditional Planescape. However, I feel that it serves the purpose I wanted it to - to provide a method by which the old cosmology might be reconciled with the new, by fudging around some things that were taken as fact and history and by adding some new elements.
Yes, it demystifies the Baernoloths a lot. No, that wasn't the direction I intended when the idea hit me. Do I like it? Not much. It's not elegant. I'd much prefer to just use the old cosmology and pretend none of 4e's changes to cosmology existed. I probaby will, in most cases.
However, now that I've written this down, I have something I can use if I want to take things in a new direction that happens to line up more with the 4e cosmology. I'll probably do this in some cases, too.
Good gods, that's a long post.
I admit to being disheartened by the changes that were proposed to the planes for 4e
Yeah... D&D writer's tend to enjoy creating stuff just for the sake of creating stuff... especially creation myths (which don't really affect PC's anyway). fwiw: the people that pitched this new cosmology are evidently the same ones that created the new, entirely separate (and much scorned) Forgotten Reams cosmology for in 3.5... when it could've instead been a nostalgic nod to Yggdrasil from the 1e MotP, seemlessly integrated to the great wheel.
The Positive and Negative Energy planes collide
Nice!
The Eladrin escape into the newly created Feywild where they are transformed before many of them cross over to the Prime. The Plane of Shadow is changed, becoming the Shadowfell, and the Astral Plane is transformed into the Astral Sea, wherein the newly combined Upper Planes and the Nine Hells, among other domains, now exist.
fwiw: the Feywild technically existed in 3e (it was just called the Plane of Faerie). Like the plane of shadow though, it was probably changed a bit in the process.
Also, I don't believe the Astral Plane changed as much as people think. 'Astral domains' are still separate planes that can be reached from multiple locations (color veils) within the Astral sea (MotP p.87). The main paradigm shifts seem to be that these planes are no longer infinite (a change I agree with), and that a few of the old "color pools" are much bigger.
Yeah... D&D writer's tend to enjoy creating stuff just for the sake of creating stuff... especially creation myths (which don't really affect PC's anyway). fwiw: the people that pitched this new cosmology are evidently the same ones that created the new, entirely separate (and much scorned) Forgotten Reams cosmology for in 3.5... when it could've instead been a nostalgic nod to Yggdrasil from the 1e MotP, seemlessly integrated to the great wheel.
Indeed. Creating things can be nice. However, creating things for the sake of creating them is not necessarily so nice.
Nice!
I was never particularly fond of those planes, being so inhospitable to adventurers as they were (and generating such debates as whether Undead could be good since they were animated by negative energy). Also, they sort of led to the Deathless in the Book of Exalted Deeds. So, getting rid of them (as they seem to not exist in 4e) makes sense, and what better way than to have them collide, much like matter and antimatter? It seems you agree, in part.
fwiw: the Feywild technically existed in 3e (it was just called the Plane of Faerie). Like the plane of shadow though, it was probably changed a bit in the process.
I never was much read on it, so thank you very much for that bit of information.
Also, I don't believe the Astral Plane changed as much as people think. 'Astral domains' are still separate planes that can be reached from multiple locations (color veils) within the Astral sea (MotP p.87). The main paradigm shifts seem to be that these planes are no longer infinite (a change I agree with), and that a few of the old "color pools" are much bigger.
Quite. I never really got much of a grasp for the Astral Plane from 3.5 (I started playing shortly after 3.5 was introduced, and much like Shemeska, I was drawn immediately to the Blood War, though I also found a deep and abiding fascination for Illithids). If I had access to better materials on the Astral Plane, it would probably be easier for me to understand the changes in context. It seems, though, that the Plane has made some minor changes with some significance, but that on the whole it functions similarly and has not undergone such the complete overhaul as the Elemental Planes have endured.
Indeed. Creating things can be nice. However, creating things for the sake of creating them is not necessarily so nice.
I'm not sure it's creation for creation's sake that's the problem, so much as creation in order to change and rewrite prior material for the sake of doing so. A number of denigrating comments by some of the design team members about the pre-4e cosmology, and some that showed a frightening level of ignorance about that material really soured me on the 4e design stance (even before any other reasons come into play).
(and generating such debates as whether Undead could be good since they were animated by negative energy).
I'm still perplexed that there was ever fierce debate in the first place. Negative energy and the Negative Energy Plane itself were never linked to evil in any way, shape, or form. No rationale based on that to give the unintelligent kind either a good or evil alignment, and then (just like any intelligent being that isn't physically made of an alignment) individual types of undead might have a tendency towards a specific alignment as a matter of their means of creation, etc but any sort of strict they must all be X or cannot be Y, just came off as silly.
I'm not sure it's creation for creation's sake that's the problem, so much as creation in order to change and rewrite prior material for the sake of doing so.
Writers (much like DM's) just seem to enjoy creating on their own... the grander the more satisfying. I do not malign them for it though... I've come to terms with the fact that there are people that just enjoy doing this.
But I also don't encourage it. This is why I avoid DM's that draw their own world-map or invent their own creation myth (often as their first activity).
I'm still perplexed that there was ever fierce debate in the first place. Negative energy and the Negative Energy Plane itself were never linked to evil in any way, shape, or form.
While it is not [Evil], a case was made that it was still linked to evil. If the search feature on my archive ever returns, I can provide you with links to threads that thoroughly discussed it, but basically:
1) An earlier Dragon magazine article about the plane said that it was evil.
2) The 3e MotP (p.81) said it was malevolent
3) The 3.5 Detect Evil spell detected undead (even if they were good-aligned, like ghosts)
4) Spells that created undead in 3.5 were [Evil]
5) Mindless undead in 3.5 were still evil
Likewise. I didn't play D&D till 3e either, and I wrote a decent chunk of the exposure they had in Dragon and Dungeon during the edition. I found the 'loths were more interesting than the other fiends. Of course, for whatever reason, WotC never did much with them, and seems to have further minimized them in 4e (at least in my view continuing a trend with many creatures that the mid to late 3.x design team largely ignored).
I've read a few of the articles you wrote; I found them to be very entertaining and interesting. However, by the time I had read the material, my ideas of how the 3E cosmology was put together was already heavily influenced by the loth-lacking material; as such, I could never really find a viable way (in my mind) to put them into my games.
(I still have trouble getting multi-quote to work for some reason...?)
To Saint Ridley:
Some nice ideas, but, if I remember correctly, the 4E cosmology explains that Orcus was actually once a primordial; he was tainted by the evil seed which the Chained God cast into the Elemental Chaos.
While it is not 'Evil', a case was made that it was still linked to evil. If the search feature on my archive ever returns, I can provide you with links to threads that thoroughly discussed it, but basically:
1) An earlier Dragon magazine article said that it was an evil place.
2) 3e MotP said it was malevolent
3) 3e undead all detected of evil (even if they were good-aligned)
4) Creating undead in 3e was an evil act
5) Mindless undead in 3e were still evil
1) Without a reference I can't comment.
2) It mentions its "malevolence" in the sense that the plane is inherently hostile to most non-natives, not that the plane is evil. The plane of fire is easily described as malevolent to a creature made of water or ice, but it doesn't mean that the plane itself has any association with evil. In fact every native to the Negative Energy Plane is explicitely neutral (energons, trillochs, etc), and the plane itself has no alignment traits at all (and never has).
3) I maintain the 3e detect evil thing was a misreading of the spell. The undead bit was only a modification to an evil aura already present. Others may read the spell description and say otherwise.
4) Don't have my PHB so I can't comment.
5) Mindless undead were neutral in 3e. It was changed in 3.5 to evil, with no real explanation given.
Of course, some folks might like to employ negative energy in their campaigns as being linked to evil, and I won't begrudge them that. I just personally don't see much of a case for the implication in the N.E.P. in the Great Wheel cosmology. My opinions are a bit solidified in the area, so apologies if I come off as dogmatic.
That said, when I tackled the nature of the energy planes for Paizo's forthcoming book for Pathfinder/Golarion's cosmology, I tried to give some underlying reasons why their natures might be a bit difficult to understand and prone to an association in some people's minds as benevolent or otherwise (and why it might be misleading once you actually explore those places).
1) Without a reference I can't comment.
I'll see what I can do.
Don't have my PHB so I can't comment.
Here (specifically here and here)
5) Mindless undead were neutral in 3e. It was changed in 3.5 to evil
Correct (and now corrected in my above post). But that point still has merit (at least for 3.5).
fwiw: I believe everyone has agreed that undead can indeed be good (as evidenced by good-aligned ghosts)
5) Mindless undead were neutral in 3e. It was changed in 3.5 to evil, with no real explanation given.
I remember hearing that the reason mindless undead where made evil in 3.5 was so the Paladins could smite them. Honestly, they should've made it so paladins could smite their foes, regardless of alignment instead of this ridiculous change.
Let's not forget that to make a golem you have to bind an elemental against its will, but no one cried foul. It's one of the reasons why Alignment is killed in my games. Needless complexity.One idea that irked me was the merging of the demiplane of dread into the shadowfell. Especially since worlds like masque of the red death seemed to suggest the dark powers where very much outside the great wheels influence (according to my interpretation).
At the same time however I could explain this as the power of the shadowfell is pulling the demiplane of dread into it. Though I will cross that hurdle when I get there, as I have yet to do a 4e game with my friends yet. As such I will reserve my judgement on 4e until then (on an unrelated note, I bought keep on the shadowfell due to its inclusion of the quick start rules, if so has anyone found this usefull in getting there players into 4e?).
As for the mention of the negative energy plane. Well I have always been a firm believer that negative energy is not evil in itself. Just the motives of those who use it, are usually linked to evil. Which makes sense why spells which use it are evil, as they were made by evil minds.
(for example a gun is not evil in itself, but the one who wield it may very well be.)
One of the gods I created Baelus, uses negative energy. Though it is a neutral god, its nature is about abscence of being, and the void which exists at the start and at the end. As such it is aligned with the negative energy plane.
1) Without a reference I can't comment.
I couldn't find the thread (and thus the quote I was thinking of), but I found a different one. Dragon #99 p.10:
"Holy water is effective against
creatures from the Lower Outer Planes
(Pandemonium to Acheron) or against very
evil Inner Planes creatures such as the
undead or the evil genies. Unholy water has
the same effect on those of the Upper Outer
Planes (Arcadia to Gladsheim) or against
very good Inner Planes natives such as
paladins (see DMG, p. 65). Creatures
affected are harmed due to their connection
with the Positive Material Plane (for good
creatures) or the Negative Material Plane
(for evil creatures)."
The demiplane of Dread could easily reside somewhere in the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow even under 3e. They never explicitly say it's not contained there or totally seperate. After all Sigil is outside the power influence of the gods but it resides in the heart of the Great Wheel cosmology. Remember in the Great Wheel you travel to other Primes via the Plane of Shadow and the Deep Ethereal. In 4e it's via Sigil, portals, and the deep Astral.
Having to split the Elemental Chaos back up into the Inner Planes is doable even if a bit of work but doesn't alter much mechanically. As noted the Plane of Faerie was always there even in 1e but it was never detailed, just mentioned in various ecologies and fluff for the various fey creatures.
Also now having read the 4e MotP it's not really all that hard to reconcile with the Great Wheel, for most of it it's more of a revisioning of the planar layout rather than a reconstruction. The Abyss and Elemental Chaos are really the big changes and I'm fine with those as I hated the old Inner Planes since they were nearly impossible to adventure in (all 18 of them not including the Prime and it's echoes).
Even in the Great Wheel they talked about the Astral containing more than just the pools to get to the 'wheel' planes. 4e just removes the 'wheel' diagram and places the planes as more free floating in their own reality space rather than forced into a ring. There's still connections between them as wanted/needed.
Now that the alignment system has changed they've just not bothered detailing the 'in between' planes that were mostly created to fill a spot for an alignment and were for most purposes devoid of character, inhabitants, and reason for visiting. They could all still be there easily, just not listed in the books since they aren't essential to the 4e pantheon or adventures.
The demiplane of Dread could easily reside somewhere in the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow even under 3e. They never explicitly say it's not contained there or totally seperate. After all Sigil is outside the power influence of the gods but it resides in the heart of the Great Wheel cosmology.
Ravenloft was listed as a demiplane (thus of ethereal or astral location) in at least one place during 3e. I'm sure that somewhere else it was probably listed as being specifically an ethereal demiplane as it was in the Ravenloft campaign setting proper.
And Sigil wasn't ever located, well, anywhere. The mazes reside in the deep ethereal, but though it's implied to exist at the center of the Outlands, that's probably a point that could be debated. ;)
Remember in the Great Wheel you travel to other Primes via the Plane of Shadow and the Deep Ethereal. In 4e it's via Sigil, portals, and the deep Astral.
Depends on what you mean by other Primes. If it's just different planets within the same prime material, you didn't need to hop planes. It was only when jumping between realities with entirely different cosmologies that such was needed.
Now that the alignment system has changed they've just not bothered detailing the 'in between' planes that were mostly created to fill a spot for an alignment and were for most purposes devoid of character, inhabitants, and reason for visiting.
You never read much about a lot of the planes did you?
You never read much about a lot of the planes did you?
I'd like to think *I* have, but I can still understand his perception. Indeed, the 4e writers evidently had the same perception.
Having to split the Elemental Chaos back up into the Inner Planes is doable
This sentence indicates that you might have missed the point of my original post.
Converting 4e back to the great wheel is not my goal. I'm just researching what might've happened to the bits of the great wheel over the last century. The assumption is that it is the same multiverse setting... just changed.
This sentence indicates that you might have missed the point of my original post.
Converting 4e back to the great wheel is not my goal. I'm just researching what might've happened to the bits of the great wheel over the last century. The assumption is that it is the same multiverse setting... just changed.
Well in core 4e it's not changed. In existing campaigns if you want to use the 4e cosmology then yes things have to had changed. That's why in FR when Asmodeus ascended to godhood and punted the Abyss out of the 'great tree'/'great wheel' it careened through the Inner Planes and turned them into the Elemental Chaos. Though it's somewhat inconsistent still since there's suddenly the Primordials and Abeir as well now, though for some (like Orcus and the Elder Elemental God) the title of 'primordial' is just a terminology change. Although even in 3/3.5e they never even bothered to explain how FR's cosmology suddenly retconned from the 1/2e Great Wheel into some sort of tree concept and the novels seemed to just ignore the change.
Ravenloft was listed as a demiplane (thus of ethereal or astral location) in at least one place during 3e. I'm sure that somewhere else it was probably listed as being specifically an ethereal demiplane as it was in the Ravenloft campaign setting proper.
I don't recall anything stating it as anything other than a demiplane. It wouldn't matter where it was since supposedly the only way in was through the mists. The way the mists entered the various worlds to claim a new kingdom sounds a lot like the Shadowfell 'worldfall' effect in 4e.
And Sigil wasn't ever located, well, anywhere. The mazes reside in the deep ethereal, but though it's implied to exist at the center of the Outlands, that's probably a point that could be debated. ;)
Can't recall where exactly but at least one source placed Sigil atop the mountain spire in the center of the Outlands but unreachable from outside other than by portals.
Depends on what you mean by other Primes. If it's just different planets within the same prime material, you didn't need to hop planes. It was only when jumping between realities with entirely different cosmologies that such was needed.
I mean different Primes as in what in Spelljammer would be different Crystal Spheres: Krynn, Toril, Oerth, Athas, Mystara, Earth, etc.
You never read much about a lot of the planes did you?
Actually I did and through 1e many of the planes that belonged to alignments now lumped under 'unaligned' especially were pretty much vacant of details and inhabitants. Over time they did try to fill them in but in many cases it felt strained and literally an attempt to fill an 'ecological' space just so the plane wouldn't be barren. This occured on some of the Inner Planes as well (especially the para-elemental planes) but elementals are easier to create than alignment-themed creatures. I for one will not miss the modrons.
Well in core 4e it's not changed.
To disambiguate: the assumption for this thread is that the great wheel has changed from how it was in 3.5 to it's current condition. This is the default for the Forgotten Realms setting, and the writer's allude to it elsewhere.
In the 4E Manual of The Planes, it says that realms in the Feywild are divided into (whatever term each division was given.) I seem to remember that the same concept was called a "Domain of Dread" or something to that effect in the section which talked about the Shadowfell.
Ravenloft could be one of those realms. Also, some of those realms are said to occasionally collide with the material plane. That seems to work. The only thing left would be to explain the planar logistics of how it all works out.
Shadowfell - Domain of Dread
The mirror dark and the mirror light respectively - save the fact that while Archfey are inextricably bound to their domains in some fashion, they are not prisoners of their domain in the way that Dark Lords are.
The Shadowfell mainly focuses on the Isles of Dread (free-floating DoDs in the Ethereal Plane, and now co-opted by the Shadowfell).
TBH, I was surprised they failed to give a 1-2 line mention of the Core Domains, or at the very least - make a statement that "sometimes these Domains of Dread converge to share a common border".
As written, it gives one the impression that only "Isles of Dread" exist in the Shadowfell.
It would have been worth their while to drop a meaty hint of Ravenlofts return by at least mentioning the "Core" (or the possibility of its existance) in passing, as that would have garnered the immediate and focused attention of die-hard Ravenloft fans.
As it is, the brief mentioning of Strahd and the Domains of Dread (in Open Grave and MotP respectively) gained barely a ripple of attention.
With that being said, given the fact that 4E paints Ravenloft as being in the Shadowfell, and based on the information contained in Lord of the Necropolis - is it possible that Azalin saw into the Abyss, and that the "Dark Powers" are in fact, extremely powerful agents of Orcus - if not Orcus himself?
I seem to remember that the same concept was called a "Domain of Dread"
The various domains of dread developed in the Ravenloft setting do indeed exist in the Shadowfell, but the whole of the Shadowfell is not comprised of Domains of Dread.
Ravenloft could be one of those realms.
Almost certainly
The Shadowfell mainly focuses on the Isles of Dread (free-floating DoDs in the Ethereal Plane, and now co-opted by the Shadowfell).
Note: the "Isle of Dread" is something else entirely, i.e. a dinosaur isle that (intermittently) appears in the Feywild.
The original 2e Domains of Dread previously existed in the Demiplane of Dread, but in 4e they now exist in the Shadowfell... but they are just a small part of the Shadowfell.
I haven't played Ravenloft (or looked at the sourcebooks) for over 4 years. As such, its understandable for the term to have become corrupted in my mind during that period lol.
Feywild - Fey Demense
Shadowfell - Domain of Dread
The mirror dark and the mirror light respectively - save the fact that while Archfey are inextricably bound to their domains in some fashion, they are not prisoners of their domain in the way that Dark Lords are.
The Shadowfell mainly focuses on the Isles of Dread (free-floating DoDs in the Ethereal Plane, and now co-opted by the Shadowfell).
TBH, I was surprised they failed to give a 1-2 line mention of the Core Domains, or at the very least - make a statement that "sometimes these Domains of Dread converge to share a common border".
As written, it gives one the impression that only "Isles of Dread" exist in the Shadowfell.
It would have been worth their while to drop a meaty hint of Ravenlofts return by at least mentioning the "Core" (or the possibility of its existance) in passing, as that would have garnered the immediate and focused attention of die-hard Ravenloft fans.
As it is, the brief mentioning of Strahd and the Domains of Dread (in Open Grave and MotP respectively) gained barely a ripple of attention.
With that being said, given the fact that 4E paints Ravenloft as being in the Shadowfell, and based on the information contained in Lord of the Necropolis - is it possible that Azalin saw into the Abyss, and that the "Dark Powers" are in fact, extremely powerful agents of Orcus - if not Orcus himself?
Thanks...
That's the part I remember reading which reminded me of Ravenloft. I don't have much experience with Ravenloft, but it was my understanding that it was a prison of sorts for the people there.
I fully intend to run a D&D4 Planescape game at some point, and it will use the Great Wheel without any mention of primordials or the Abyss in the Elemental Chaos.I'm currently doing this. Its pretty cool.
I'm actually running the Eternal Boundary and all the investigation was done fairly smoothly using skill challenges. Lots of fun, I really recommend that if you enjoy Planescape, you give 4E Planescape a chance. I think that 4E is really into high magic styles, and that fits nicely in the Planescape way of playing, I guess.