Aside from past flops, should the 4e Samurai be historically accurate, or should WotC interpret them as 2h great katana, spear, and bow characters?
How this will work mechanically I'm not sure yet but it seems the most likely.
If they do make a separate 'Samurai' class (as a Ki Defender, for example), it's probably best for them to go flat-out mystical to avoid having the class look like the 'Asian-flavored Fighter'. Basically, this class would be a monk focusing on weapons rather than unarmed combat (similar to the Shou Disciple prestige class from 3E), similar to any number of archetypes of this type from wuxia films and anime.
They might even call it by another name, though I'm not sure what that would be.
I imagine that the 4e Samurai will be a defender using the Ki power source (with the Ninja being a striker using Ki and the Monk being a Leader or Controller using Ki.)
How this will work mechanically I'm not sure yet but it seems the most likely.
Except that the monk is confirmed as a striker.
Except that the monk is confirmed as a striker.
Believe nothing you haven't seen in print.
Not saying it won't be a striker, I'm sure it will.
I'm just sayin...
I imagine that the 4e Samurai will be a defender using the Ki power source (with the Ninja being a striker using Ki and the Monk being a Leader or Controller using Ki.)
And they will all be published in a book called "Complete Racism - The D&D Sourcebook about How We're Tired of the Positive Publicity and Our Shareholders' Happiness."
Other classes include the German Wrestler, which utilizes the new Bräu power source!
I wonder, what exactly might the 4e Samurai look like (because you know WotC is going to print one)?
Aside from past flops, should the 4e Samurai be historically accurate, or should WotC interpret them as 2h great katana, spear, and bow characters?
I suspect that the samurai has already been published under a different name... We call it the fighter. Samurai is a station not a job. It does not require making another class. You can choose your style by changing class. If you are niten style, you can play as a TWF fighter or Ranger. If you want to be The Naginata wielding badass general, play a taclord. Use your imaginations. A samurai can be almost anything. I've played a berserker samurai and my class was barbarian.
I suspect that the samurai has already been published under a different name... We call it the fighter. Samurai is a station not a job. It does not require making another class. You can choose your style by changing class. If you are niten style, you can play as a TWF fighter or Ranger. If you want to be The Naginata wielding badass general, play a taclord. Use your imaginations. A samurai can be almost anything. I've played a berserker samurai and my class was barbarian.
Illustrating the point.
I suspect that the samurai has already been published under a different name... We call it the fighter. Samurai is a station not a job. It does not require making another class. You can choose your style by changing class. If you are niten style, you can play as a TWF fighter or Ranger. If you want to be The Naginata wielding badass general, play a taclord. Use your imaginations. A samurai can be almost anything. I've played a berserker samurai and my class was barbarian.
+chuckle+ Apparently you've never heard of me. I used to be a pro-Samurai class fanatic, even defending the 3.5 CW Samurai. After a while, I did realize that playing a Samurai was indeed based on how you play one, and if you bothered to focus in between the parenthesis, you'd understand why I bother asking.
Undoubtedly, WotC is going to print one.
It happened in 2E with Oriental Adventures
It happened in 3E with Oriental Adventures
It was expanded upon by AEG, whose intellectual property was bastardized in 3E OA.
And it happened again in 3.5E with a class that attempted to return to it's 2E TWF fixation, albeit at a lower power level.
Now, do I personally feel a Samurai class is necessary for 4E? Not necessarily. I think that, done in a different manner, a Samurai class could in fact be completely different from the Fighter class.
For example:
All of the classes (or at least their roles) are supposed to "break" the norm in some way.
A Samurai class, taking Final Fantasy XI as an example, might focus on using powers to a greater degree than all of the other classes.
The Samurai may very well be a Ki Defender, but a signature trait is that he can use his powers ALOT more than other classes. A Samurai could use Two Standard-action At-Will Powers in One Round, gain Two uses of an Encounter Power, per encounter, etc.
Just hypothesizing and speculating perhaps what one could be.
Would that not make a Samurai class completely different than a Fighter class?
Is that balanced? Probably not, even with scaling down the amount of possible damage of each Exploit, but it's an idea point from which we can leap from, instead of demeaning and debasing the legitimacy of a Samurai class.
Going from the opposite angle, perhaps the Samurai class, instead, gets fewer opportunities to use his Exploits, but they deal considerably more damage? That may even change the Samurai from being a Defender to a Striker. Perhaps not. If we go by the analog that all heavily armored types are Defenders, all light and mobile types are Strikers, all squishy nukes are Controllers, and Leaders are Defenders or Strikers with Buffing and Debuffing abilities; than a Samurai has to be a defender.
Perhaps the Samurai class should in fact be limited to specializing in the daisho, not for the fact that it's historically accurate, but because it's unique. Perhaps then all of his powers involve using swords. Perhaps the Samurai specializes in melee to the point where different weapons have different exploits? Or that a Samurai's list of exploits is based on many, if not all of the weapons. Perhaps an exploit list for Heavy Blades, Light Blades, Polearms, etc.
Because there is nothing wrong with assuming there will be a Samurai class, it's safe to speculate what a class could in fact be.
And I hope we've moved far enough away from having classes specialize in completely negligible abilities, such as mounts, mounted combat, and talking to fish.
I suspect that the samurai has already been published under a different name... We call it the fighter. Samurai is a station not a job. It does not require making another class. You can choose your style by changing class. If you are niten style, you can play as a TWF fighter or Ranger. If you want to be The Naginata wielding badass general, play a taclord. Use your imaginations. A samurai can be almost anything. I've played a berserker samurai and my class was barbarian.
I would also like to note: "Niten" from Miyamoto Musashi's Niten Ichiryu, does not mean "two swords", it means "two heavens".
And to correctly emulate Nito "Two Swords", a Samurai would historically not have the Ranger class's inexplicable ability to wield two heavy blades. An Archery Ranger could do much the same, but that's ultimately not optimized, I realize.
And they will all be published in a book called "Complete Racism - The D&D Sourcebook about How We're Tired of the Positive Publicity and Our Shareholders' Happiness."
Other classes include the German Wrestler, which utilizes the new Bräu power source!
How many other gaming systems have made the distinction between classes?
The Final Fantasy franchise
Soul Calibur
Golden Sun
and other games which make the distinction.
And last I checked, Golden Sun and Final Fantasy have no basis in the real world, so Samurai, as a class isn't a reaction to being historically correct.
Is it fanaticism? Of course. WotC will give people what they want, even if it does suck. That's the beauty of corporate capitalism, if people ask for it, you give it to them, even if it sucks. They got what they asked for.
When you here the term, "Samurai class" in relation to an RPG, most people think of a katana-wielding master of martial arts with a sublime connection to the sword.
Fighter-Kensai may appease some people (I liked it), but it won't appease everyone.
How many other gaming systems have made the distinction between classes?
The Final Fantasy franchise
Soul Calibur
Golden Sun
and other games which make the distinction.
And last I checked, Golden Sun and Final Fantasy have no basis in the real world, so Samurai, as a class isn't a reaction to being historically correct.
Is it fanaticism? Of course. WotC will give people what they want, even if it does suck. That's the beauty of corporate capitalism, if people ask for it, you give it to them, even if it sucks. They got what they asked for.
When you here the term, "Samurai class" in relation to an RPG, most people think of a katana-wielding master of martial arts with a sublime connection to the sword.
Fighter-Kensai may appease some people (I liked it), but it won't appease everyone.
I'm not against the concept of a Samurai class, nor a Ki power source, though I think the latter would be redundant unless it differs significantly from the Martial power source. I'm against the concept of making a special power source for Asian classes. That's racism. No matter on what scale or in what form it exists, racism is, to use Gene Ray's words, "stupid and evil."
Put simply, Samurai should have the ability to cut through an enemy at long range using either an energy shockwave or "vacuum wave" generated by swinging their sword. Countless videogames have told me that this is so. ;) A good example is the Ogre Battle series of videogames, actually, where more asian-flavored sword-users are given such a technique in order to make them different from Paladins (who instead get healing moves) or Dragoons (who are just tough).
To be more specific, a proper Samurai should either be the classic "wandering swordmaster" type who uses no armor but is agile and makes use of things like Iaijutsu technique, or a slightly more historical armored archer/spearmaster/swordmaster class. Either way, a large amount of "ki" flavor should be added, so we get things like "Iaijutsu slash that cuts apart every foe around in the blink of an eye" or "spiritually powered arrow that can seal evil and banish spirits" as abilities, rather than Martial techniques. I can honestly imagine such a class being a weapon-using, armor-wearing Controller, rather than a Defender or Striker.
Certainly, there are aspects of the Samurai's mythos that simply can't (and shouldn't) be replicated by the 4E Fighter, and those aspects should be wrapped up into a different class. There is certainly a place in the game for "samurai" characters of the Fighter class, but that doesn't mean it should be left at that.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
Thank you so much for all that useless information. I'm sorry but, i'm one of those players with an imagination as well a knowledge. I'm not saying one won't be printed i'm say there isn't a need for such a thing. I'm attempting to help the D&D team spend time on things that are way more important then pleasing the weeaboos... even if i am a weeaboo myself.
L5R put me in the habit of referring to two sword technique as "niten". Do pardon my mistake.
Heh, funny. Nice sense of humor you have with you. No sense of timing though. Take a look at the post directly above you. Think about that quietly before you sling names around.
And I followed AEG's L5R products for a while, too. So I realize the folly of their naming conventions, I just thought it apt to point out that everyone referring to a dual-wielding samurai as a "Niten" one was funny in translation.
Obviously you didn't.
As for the necessity of a samurai class, whether or not you, I, or even a majority of the DnD followers think a Samurai class is necessary, there will still be some who clamor for it, and if they release an Oriental Adventures, based upon history and popularity, they will release one.
Happy Halloween.
+Snippity Snip about "Ki" Controller and making a power source based on Asian themes+
To AD: The fact is, while it certainly is running into dangerous territory, it's the fact that most, if not all, cultures have something akin to the theory of Ki. And the reason we'd call it Ki is because Psionics pertains to something slightly different in DnD terminology.
Let's break down what Power Source actually pertains to:
Martial, Ki, Divine, Primal, Shadow, Fire, Arcane, Psionics, and blahdeblah.
It may explain why some powers have extra damage, whether or not a class is allowed to use an implement, and whatnot.
For the most part, it's an explanation of what makes a class different from another class without taking powers into account.
What's the difference between Ki and Martial Power sources? Martial implies strict focus into mundane use of weaponry, using tactics, skills, and techniques.
Ki implies something...sublime. I could go into all this mumbojumbo about it, but what it comes down to in a game like this is that the powers of a Ki user don't necessarily come from Arcane or Divine. They should perhaps focus on offensive skills and self-buffing powers that heal or add to attack of damage.
Let me explain the relation through examining Primal, Martial, and Ki. Remember, I'm only guesstimating on what Ki and Primal are, rather than knowing "they are this, this, this, and this!"
Primal seems to be an influence of instinctual beast-like abilities. A connection to the world and an animal-like nature imbued in the character. Such things like Trapsense and Rage mimic animalistic instincts.
Martial is the influence of time spent training with weapons, against other types of weapons, different opponents, and the like. Martial characters take Opportunistic Attacks to new levels, even eventually possibly learning how to use powers during instead of basic attacks during which.
Ki, then, would be something derived from both, in a way. Tapping into energies that are natural, but imploring them in ways related to expert martial studies. Finally making an anime reference, because we seem to have a fan of such, you often see hulking brutes attacking calm and collected pretty boys to no avail. That does not mean the the muscle-bound axe-wielding machos are dumb or not as good as they are, but because the calm and collected pretty boy always has an edge over the macho guy. And it's always climactic, always dumb, and is really predictable.
An example of which, I'll derive from Yu Yu Hakusho, so long ago, where the main character was getting pummelled by a tough skinned Ogre. Couldn't do any damage to him. What'd he do? Shot a burst of Ki energy into the Ogre's mouth and killed him. It was amusing...until three seasons later, by when it was so overused Cartoon Network cancelled it completely, thank god.
Ascetic Shaolin Monks aren't lifting weights everyday, they're striking vital spots to disrupt Chi flow and make your heart burst from the inside out.
Samurai aren't tripping you, kicking your sword away and Coup de Gracing you, they're cutting you in half because they are so invested in their weapon.
And why should Ki be limited to "Asian" classes? We don't have to make it be so, We could rename it, and the classes, and it would have a totally different feel. The only reason they would do so in the first place, is because it appeals to a mass audience. The expert players then no how to break away from the mold and make something completely unique.
Hell, we could probably make Samurai based off of the Fighter AND the SwordMage, but that's drawing only off of two or three sources and ideas for a samurai. So let's see what's left to be covered and if a class is workable.
Martial Samurai (Fighter(Defender), Ranger(Striker), Warlord(Leader))
Mystical Samurai (Swordmage(Striker?))
Controller-type Samurai?
Etc?
This brings me to TwinBahamut:
A controller type samurai? Interesting concept. Cutting enemies in half with his sword, spear, or bow, from long range. I'm not to familiar with the balance issues, but likely a Controller would probably not be heavily armored. But the idea still works.
Any other comments or ideas that don't involve slinging around derogatory terms such as Weaboo?
I'm sure WotC will create their own, and while I'm about as far from interested in it as it's possible to get, as I find them boring and silly, they should go with the fantasy samurai archetype rather than the real world one, because D&D is a fantasy game and does not take place in the real world.
For fluff, it should be either a Dwarf or a Dragonborn creation, it seems to fit them best.
That being said, I'd have to agree with you on the idea of defenders being heavily armored, but I don't think of samurai as defenders for that reason. Sure samurai who went to war as soldiers wore armor, but I'd hardly compare the bamboo bogu with full plate. More importantly, movie samurai often look more like Rurouni Kenshin, unarmored death wielders. This is why I think the samurai would be great as a controller. The idea is completely different than any other class and therefore a useful new class and not just a reflavored one.
I'd give them efficiency only with cloth armor and blade weapons. Since they have little armor and are best when surrounded by enemies, I'd make their skills based on CON, INT, and WIS (CON as a base and INT or WIS depending on the build). The rational is that the ki their power is based off of is manifested through the constitution of the samurai. Then I'd make their powers melee bursts, or charging attacks where they can attack multiple targets in a line. One new mechanic here would be attacks that require both a move and standard action, but accomplish both at the same time (i.e. a level 9 daily that is a burst 5 and does 3[W] + CON to all enemies in the burst that requires both a move and a standard action, but the samurai may end his turn anywhere within the burst). The flavor text may talk about the samurai zipping from foe to foe, striking down anyone who ventured into his deadly dance of swords.
All the last paragraph could be for an iaidoka build. A shi-ki build (I don't know Japanese; I hope that translates to something like death ki) could have the samurai project his ki onto the battlefield in such strong waves that it hampers or harms those that enter its influence. These abilities might take on the "wall" form mentioned in the PHB, or even be ranged effects.
I like the idea of a samurai class because I see the samurai as something different than what has already been made. I agree that if you envision your samurai as being identical to a fighter with different names for the same equipment and powers then you should just make a fighter and rewrite the flavor text. I personally made a twf elven ranger and envisioned him as a samurai because it was close enough and fun.
I also feel that non-Asian ki users would be fun, like the huge bodyguard who use just the force of his presence to get him through a fight. The problem with them is that once all the "Asian" classes are made as ki warriors, a non-Asian ki warrior is just a reflavoring of what has already been done. These reasons are probably why WotC writes so many articles about character concept and rewriting flavor text to match your vision of the hero (or villain, if that's how you roll).
The samurai would probably focus on swords, spears, and polearms as its weapons of choice, while monks use unarmed combat (as well as some 'monk' weapons like staffs and nunchaku). The defender component of the samurai may be handled through a 'ki shout' ability, or a 'fast-draw' skill that lets him counter-attack enemies that aim at him or his allies.
Samurai Retrospective/Massive Text Attack Go!
I started to try to figure out where they might go with the new Samurai class, and ended up here. I figured that the only way to predict future behavior is to closely examine past behavior, and look for patterns to extrapolate into the future. Here's what I found on a quick perusal through the collection.
Issue 3 of Dragon: October 1976
"A Plethora of Obscure Sub-Classes"
by Mike Childers, modified by Jeff Kay
Designated with a prescript as non-official.
This samurai is explicitly a fighter sub-class, using all of the fighter rules with a few exceptions: His sword is better, with an expanded "critical hit" mechanic, including the possibility of making an instant kill. He has a "judo" stunning attack, which, if he is unarmed, has a chance of doing some damage and knocking the opponent prone or stunning them for 10 or 20 seconds. In addition, he has a different selection of armors, and access to the composite longbow, with different attack/damage/range values, and the ability to use it kneeling, standing, or riding.
Issue 49 of Dragon: May 1981
"The Samurai: An Honorable NPC"
by Anthony Salva
Explicitly stated as for NPC use only, too unbalancing for a PC without revision.
This samurai was designed by a Hapkido martial artist to simulate Hapkido, and I'm unsure why this was thought appropriate. As such, this samurai is not allowed to wear armor, and has a plethora of unarmed-combat rules meant to simulate Hapkido. Truly, this is not the samurai as we're familiar with it, with the majority of the space in the article focusing on unarmed martial arts. In addition, this samurai learns illusion spells. There appears to have been some confusion with the Ninja, as upon further reading one finds that the title of an 8th level Samurai is, in fact, "Ninja".
AD&D Oriental Adventures: October 1985
by Gary Gygax, with David Cook and Francois Marcela-Froideval
The first samurai intended for player use.
This is, once again, a fighter with some special rules. Rather than a single specialization, he is allowed two: The katana and the daikyu. He can focus his ki a number of times per day, allowing him short periods of peak human strength. He eventually becomes immune to fear, and gains access to a fear ability of his own. He can use any kind of armor. Finally, the character gains access to an area-effect paralyzation shout ability. This samurai must be of lawful alignment.
The Complete Fighter's Handbook: 1989
by Aaron Allston
Once again, the samurai is a subclass, in this case a kit, for a fighter. He retains the kiai shout, used to focus his strength and achieve peak human ability a number of times per day, but doesn't get the area effect paralyzation shout or fear immunity/infliction from Oriental Adventures. The samurai does retain the extra specialization, in this case in the form of 2 extra weapon proficiency slots, which are required to be spent on katana and daikyu. As a rather harsh role-playing penalty, samurai who become ronin receive a 50% xp reduction when earning experience, until they regain their position.
Dungeons & Dragons - Sword and Fist: 2001
by Jason Carl
The Master Samurai is presented as a 10 level prestige class. The class is focused mainly on adding to the efficacy of Cleave through the addition of Great Cleave and a class specific Supreme Cleave. The kiai strength shout from the previous 2 iterations is sort of retained, as Ki Strength, and is joined by the Ki Attack, which does some extra damage. As in the kit from 2nd edition, there are a number of required skills in which the samurai must be proficient.
Dungeons & Dragons - Oriental Adventures: 2001
by James Wyatt
Here, the Samurai receives the full 20-level treatment, as well as receiving a plethora 10 and 5 level prestige classes that complement it. The samurai seems to functionally be a fighter, with no special abilities of his own. He receives bonus feats, which are drawn from lists specific to his clan. The most distinct feature of this samurai concept is the ancestral daisho, essentially turning every samurai's weapon set into a "legacy" type weapon, with customizable enchantments. The addition of the iajutsu skill and iajutsu master prestige class makes possible a samurai focused on duelling a single target and dealing devastating first-strke damage. The kensai prestige class here repeats the idea of the intermittent use of ki to deal extra damage for a short period, in this case by doing max damage with the weapon of choice. This is by far the most comprehensive look at the samurai class and variants of it to date.
Dungeons & Dragons - Miniatures Handbook: October 2003
by Johnathan Tweet, Mike Donais, Skaff Elias, and Rob Heinsoo
additional design by Bruce Cordell
The Miniatures Handbook adds the Dragon Samurai as a prestige class, adding draconic-themed powers. These include immunity to dragon fear a breath weapon, resistance to an element, and the ability to add elemental damage to melee weapon strikes. Ultimately, this samurai has little to do with any historically-themed samurai.
Dungeons & Dragons - Complete Warrior: December 2003
Andy Collins, David Noonan, Ed Stark
additional design by Jesse Decker
Complete Warrior is another attempt at a base-class Samurai. This samurai gets the free katana proficiency, as have many others, and there is the inclusion of two-weapon fighting as the standard. Iajutsu is referenced with a free quick-draw feat, as well as Improved Initiative. The venerable and oft-seen shout is there, in this case in the form of Kiai smite. The samurai shouts and does extra damage a certain number of times per day. This version, in addition to returning the kiai shout, returns a form of the mass paralyzation and fear as well, with the staredown line of class abilities. This latest version of the class is a definite callback to the first "official" version, in AD&D Oriental Adventures
I'm sure I missed something here or there, most likely in Dragon, but who knows. There's more than 30 years of material here, and I only spent an hour or so.
What I found was that there are, in fact, patterns to the various iterations of the samurai. The most common factor is the kiai shout/ki attack where, a limited number of times per day, the Samurai increases his strength or his weapon damage by a large margin. Other popular foci are the daisho and the daikyu, generally the Samurai has been required to spend character creation resources on them, either in the form of proficiency slots, or feats, in later versions. The intimidation is a factor in at least 2 versions.
Thematically, the class could be either a striker or a defender. Given current imbalance in the roles, and the likelihood of a striker monk, I'd guess Defender. There may be marking with some kind of duel/iajutsu focus, and some controller-ish powers in the form of mass intimidation. We'll probably see some form of dual wielded swords. One build maybe focused on dual-wielding with defense bonus, one on 2-handed cleaving. If there is a focus on anime-inspired ki ranged attacks, it would be a departure, but it's certainly possible. Generally speaking, the samurai has had class features primarily focused on using the daisho/daikyu, to the virtually mandated exclusion of other weapons.
I would also like to note: "Niten" from Miyamoto Musashi's Niten Ichiryu, does not mean "two swords", it means "two heavens".
I thought it was "twin heaven." Yours make sense since the technique (which was resulted from Musashi having seen a Dutch sailor practiced with a sword and dagger, or so they say) would be4 mostly involved the long-bladed katana and the short-bladed wakizashi. And much like the dagger, the wakizashi used in Musashi's technique is primarily a defensive blocking weapon.
Still... I don't want the samurai class be modeled after Musashi's Niten Ichiryu. They're much like any "knights" of the Western World. They know how to fight with swords and polearms (mounted and footman). They're not shy about using bows if they're good at it, too. The only thing they lack is a shield.
Point out if I've missed it, but the Fighter may lack some of the iconic material one might expect of chanbara exploits. Ending duels with one quick strike, sword or fan techniques that hit from far away, a strait dash that hits all targets on a line, as well as stances with different passive effects (a la Bo9S), are common stylizations in Japanese media.
Tho' stances are by no means limited to Asian martial arts, and Japanese art has seen similar stylizations visited upon more European subjects, I think people look for mechanics that work this feel upon the game, and if it's not found in Martial Power, maybe we'll find it in a ki class (that'll explain all the sword/spear shockwaves and dash strikes with multiple targets).
Now Chinese-style wuxia is a bit different from Japanese chanbara/anime/etc, tho' both can involve striking from a distance with melee attacks. Will they cover both with different exploit selections of the same class like 3e did with Sword Sage?
D&D already has American stylizations like second wind (which is also Asian) and Good & Evil (capital letters), so adding East Asian stylization exploits for these classes should feel part-&-parcel.
Sure samurai who went to war as soldiers wore armor, but I'd hardly compare the bamboo bogu with full plate.
Bamboo bogu is to samurai armour what football pads are to full plate. Real samurai armour wasn't made of bamboo.
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html
I do agree that samurai armour cannot compare with European full plate in terms of the protection afforded to the wearer, though.
I thought it was "twin heaven." Yours make sense since the technique (which was resulted from Musashi having seen a Dutch sailor practiced with a sword and dagger, or so they say) would be4 mostly involved the long-bladed katana and the short-bladed wakizashi. And much like the dagger, the wakizashi used in Musashi's technique is primarily a defensive blocking weapon.
Still... I don't want the samurai class be modeled after Musashi's Niten Ichiryu. They're much like any "knights" of the Western World. They know how to fight with swords and polearms (mounted and footman). They're not shy about using bows if they're good at it, too. The only thing they lack is a shield.
We assume that the reason Musashi's style was evidenced of a Dutch Sailor, but even though that comes from Narukagami, whom I respect whole heartedly, evidence like Kenji Tokitsu's book on Miyamoto Musashi provide a different answer to me.
Musashi's father was a famed wielder of the jutte, a truncheon type weapon. The Jutte was used for arresting swords from unrestrained samurai. Musashi probably took the teaching and applied it to using a short sword in one hand and a long sword in the other.
Now, I'm not a master of Renaissance fencing, but the gauche was a small dagger, unbelievably smaller than a wakizashi, now, taking the principle of the idea of using a sword defensively isn't uncommon. But, we owe Musashi a little more respect than simply saying, "Well, one day he saw a Dutch fencer..."
Musashi might have sooner advocated using a tanto, to parry with the long sword and thrust with the dagger, similar to Ren Fencing.
On the topic of shields. Have you see the armor pre-Mongolian Invasion? The shoulders were the equivalent of shields. Even some of the swordplay around the era involved blocking with the sword and shoulder-plate (which can then manifest into some of Musashi's own principles).
But I agree that Samurai shouldn't all be similar to a "Musashi" style, but also remember that the 3.5 CW Samurai attempted to lend itself to single swordplay as well. Although, perhaps that was simply a design error.
Allow me to quote Musashi, "A warrior should not die with a sword still at his hip." If we grant historical accuracy to a majority of daisho-wearing noble warriors, we should understand that many prominent sword schools eventually picked up on the idea of wielding both swords. Kattori Shintoryu, Yagyu Shinkageryu, and Niten Ichiryu to name a few.
As for the stylizations of Japanese media, do we truly feel that incorporating the absurd is justifiable? Long range melee attacks simply feels oxymoronic. Now, attacks with a burst radius, I could understand, in terms of some whirlwind technique or something not too arcane or mystical. While we are trying to speculate on a not martial samurai, I feel going psionic may be a little too bizarre.
http://www.goantiques.com/detail,spanish-main-gauche,1814812.html
There's one they say is from around 1650. They could be small, but they didn't have to be. Just saying.
4th edition isn't really making much of an effort to avoid the absurd. If they want to model historical samurai - the class would be a striker with a few powers that represent realistic sword strikes. Ultimately, they need 30 or more powers, several of which will be in the epic tier. Look for some absurd stuff.
Hnnngh!
Samurai Retrospective/Massive Text Attack Go!
I started to try to figure out where they might go with the new Samurai class, and ended up here. I figured that the only way to predict future behavior is to closely examine past behavior, and look for patterns to extrapolate into the future. Here's what I found on a quick perusal through the collection.
This was certainly interesting, but I am not sure that this is completely applicable. So far, 4E classes have diverged wildly from their predecessors, with everything from the "archer" concept being phased out of the Fighter, to the loss of the Ranger's magic, to the addition of pacts and pact boons to the Warlock, and even a severe scaling back of the Wizard's niche. I really think that any elements of an older Samurai will only appear as minor aspects of a new one, particularly since WotC will want to make it diverge more from the Fighter.
Anyways, I am a bit surprised to be reminded of how much the "Kiai Shout" fear effect was part of the classic Samurai classes. A class built around intimidation, instilling fear, and weakening his foes' morale (essentially, the aggressive counterpart to the Warlord) has been my favorite concept for a Martial Controller. I guess this is one more argument for making the Samurai a Controller (either Martial or Ki-based).
If anyone is wondering why I am pushing this "Controller" angle so much, it is because I really want 4E to support the "five swordsmen" team (alternatively, you can call it the "Seven Samurai" team
). With Fighters and Paladins for Defenders, Rogues, Rangers, and Barbarians for Strikers, and the Warlord for a Leader, the only thing 4E needs is a good sword-using Controller, and it will finally be able to break free of the old "fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard" scheme and fully support a kind of team that would be really to fun to use.Argh, now I am tempted to go look up Kurosawa's Seven Samurai and assign them different roles and classes...
As for the stylizations of Japanese media, do we truly feel that incorporating the absurd is justifiable? Long range melee attacks simply feels oxymoronic. Now, attacks with a burst radius, I could understand, in terms of some whirlwind technique or something not too arcane or mystical. While we are trying to speculate on a not martial samurai, I feel going psionic may be a little too bizarre.
Who ever said Psionic? What I am aiming for is what I hope Ki will be. If Ki is just reflavored Martial, with nothing but mostly mundane effects, then it would not deserve to exist as separate from Martial. Ki should include the full range of "supernatural weaponfighting and martial arts", from Wuxia and the most implausible of Hong Kong action movies to the flashiest stuff you see in anime and videogames. By its nature, it should be a weapon-based combat Power Source that utilizes spiritual power to accomplish amazing things. If it is not pulling off the "absurd", then it isn't worth having.
At the very least, a Ki-based Samurai class should be able to pull off something like this (what I am talking about occurs around 4:20 in the video), where a swordmaster managed to completely bisect a gigantic enemy from head to toe without either visibly unsheathing his sword or moving from the position he was standing in (despite the fact that he would have had to move to even reach the enemy, let alone cut it all the way).
Well, "ni" means "2"; "ten" means "the heavens."
Point out if I've missed it, but the Fighter may lack some of the iconic material one might expect of chanbara exploits. Ending duels with one quick strike, sword or fan techniques that hit from far away, a strait dash that hits all targets on a line, as well as stances with different passive effects (a la Bo9S), are common stylizations in Japanese media.
Meh. Chanbara is no different than some of the recent swordfighting films, where heroes can strike down minions with a single stroke.
Besides, I don't think "one strike, one kill" ability should be given at lower level, anyway.
But I agree that Samurai shouldn't all be similar to a "Musashi" style, but also remember that the 3.5 CW Samurai attempted to lend itself to single swordplay as well. Although, perhaps that was simply a design error.
More like American exposure to just anime (even the more ridiculously exaggerated three-sword technique from One Piece). Granted, almost all of them are made in Japan, but it's not the only medium that features samurai swordplay.
I thought the Yagyu style (taught to almost all, if not all Tokugawa Shoguns) is mainly one-sword.
I thought the Yagyu style (taught to almost all, if not all Tokugawa Shoguns) is mainly one-sword.
That doesn't really count for much though, since by the time of the Tokugawa Shogunate, samurai was a completely ceremonial title. Members of the samurai class were more encouraged to study to become bureaucrats than practice swordplay. On the same note, Musashi was also a product of the Edo period, and thus not indicative of the samurai as a warrior class in any way, shape, or form.
If you want to find a good model for a samurai class, you need to look at either the Sengoku era, or (my personal favorite) the Genji-Heike war.
Of course, I would hate to see a Samurai class in 4E. To me they are just Fighters or Rangers. Furthermore, the word samurai itself is a somewhat anachronistic term. For a lot of Japanese history, what we call samurai were called bushi, which translates simply as "warrior".
Who ever said Psionic? What I am aiming for is what I hope Ki will be. If Ki is just reflavored Martial, with nothing but mostly mundane effects, then it would not deserve to exist as separate from Martial. Ki should include the full range of "supernatural weaponfighting and martial arts", from Wuxia and the most implausible of Hong Kong action movies to the flashiest stuff you see in anime and videogames. By its nature, it should be a weapon-based combat Power Source that utilizes spiritual power to accomplish amazing things. If it is not pulling off the "absurd", then it isn't worth having.
At the very least, a Ki-based Samurai class should be able to pull off something like this (what I am talking about occurs around 4:20 in the video), where a swordmaster managed to completely bisect a gigantic enemy from head to toe without either visibly unsheathing his sword or moving from the position he was standing in (despite the fact that he would have had to move to even reach the enemy, let alone cut it all the way).
Something like in the video, I'd hope to be describing a power in a unique way. I have very little problem with something like that. It's things that go too far. Now, I don't have a great example to explain what makes me nervous, but anything akin to overtly magical abilities distresses me.
We would then just be calling Ki arcane.
Besides, I don't think "one strike, one kill" ability should be given at lower level, anyway.
+Snip+
More like American exposure to just anime (even the more ridiculously exaggerated three-sword technique from One Piece). Granted, almost all of them are made in Japan, but it's not the only medium that features samurai swordplay.
I thought the Yagyu style (taught to almost all, if not all Tokugawa Shoguns) is mainly one-sword.
Martial Arts styles have their preferences too. The Yagyu lineage probably had a headmaster who had learned or created nito (using Japanese for the sake of effort) techniques and incorporated them into the style.
Think of it like this: Mugairyu teaches Mugai as well as Shintoryu paired excercises. The Shintoryu (coming from Shindo Musoryu (a branch off from either Kattori or Kashima Shinto)) excercises are completely different from what we learn in Mugai, but they are still part of the curriculum.
So Yagyu may have one or two nito techniques (probably a few more), but that's still enough to say that they teach nito. After all, Yagyu then teaches principles of single sword swordsmanship that can lend themselves to two swords. Mugai can't claim this because the only two sword technique lies in defending against two swords in the Shintoryu excercises.
That doesn't really count for much though, since by the time of the Tokugawa Shogunate, samurai was a completely ceremonial title. Members of the samurai class were more encouraged to study to become bureaucrats than practice swordplay. On the same note, Musashi was also a product of the Edo period, and thus not indicative of the samurai as a warrior class in any way, shape, or form.
Actually, Musashi was born prior to the Tokugawa Shogunate, prior enough to serve in the battle of...Sekigahara, was it? He claims to have participated in five or six battles, the last of which was the Rebellion at Shimabara.
But, we're mincing words. What you claim is a samurai and is not a samurai, is akin to anyone at all defining what is and what is not "american."
If you want to find a good model for a samurai class, you need to look at either the Sengoku era, or (my personal favorite) the Genji-Heike war.
Iizasa Choisai? Kamiizumi Nobutsuna? Oda Nobunaga? Yagyu Sekishusai?
Or, if we must go far enough back to the Genji-Heike War, Yo*****une? What made any of these men different from one another? Didn't all of them put their lives on the line for some cause? Weren't they above the peasantry?
The ebb and flow of the Samurai class has them as mercenaries, to feudal knights, to warrior-gentry, and finally to bureaucrats. They can't be a class of warriors without a war to fight, so they have to have some source of income. Fencing coaches were still in a high demand in the Edo period. If one traveled and worked on their swordsmanship and beat the clan's fencing coach, then his skill at arms would afford him a grander stipend. So, samurai didn't give up their ways of combat, they just refined it for the renaissance of Japan. Much like the knights of the Renaissance no longer carried around suits of armor, armor was useless where firearms prevailed, so they refined close combat with thinner blades.
Also, the main-gauche could be a couple feet long, easily, I've seen them from 11-inch blade lengths to 17 inches or more.
http://www.goantiques.com/detail,spa...e,1814812.html
There's one they say is from around 1650. They could be small, but they didn't have to be. Just saying.
4th edition isn't really making much of an effort to avoid the absurd. If they want to model historical samurai - the class would be a striker with a few powers that represent realistic sword strikes. Ultimately, they need 30 or more powers, several of which will be in the epic tier. Look for some absurd stuff.
Fair enough. But take some of the passages from the Book of Five Rings and you see a definite link between juttejutsu and the jujutsu elements that encompass it, rather than simply using the weapon to block, lock, and hinder.
But that's not to say Musashi never did stumble through the woods to see a gaijin man fencing, we just can't say, "Well he did."
Again, reiterating my point on absurdities, I just don't want anything like summoning a dragon from the sword, cutting an interdimensional portal to Hell, or anything like that. I'm not the kind of guy you'd want to be sitting next to watching Makai Tensho with, I cringe at the horror of watching Sonny Chiba strike a cool, but ultimately pointless pose in an effort to block. Too much of a risk for getting stabbed.
...Now I have to figure out how to explain to my Sensei why his "ironwood" Naginata is now an "ironwood" staff...
Think DBZ. Magic Missile vs. Kamehameha.
I do not want to mix DnD and DBZ.
What I meant by arcane is that some of the Ki stuff has the possibility of looking arcane.
Think DBZ. Magic Missile vs. Kamehameha.
I do not want to mix DnD and DBZ.
Because DBZ is the only thing ever that had people shooting fireballs from their hands.
Because DBZ is the only thing ever that had people shooting fireballs from their hands.
Well, the example fits my aversion. Simply put, we need to address what exactly the limitations are of each power source, which is the very reason why some people don't think Oriental classes should be the only ones with the Ki source.
Are we going to see 4e Monks with ranged abilities bordering on the arcane? Should we have melee characters with powers that have a range?
I am not going to grossly over-simplify the issue, but if we think that Ki classes should have blatantly offensive ranged powers, than it would feel exactly like playing a Wizard with a Sword.
To restate a favorable point: What if the Ki source was more subtle? What if it inflicted status effects in a radius of the character, rather than a allowed the character to deal damage at range.
Perhaps Ninja powers dealing with Stealth; like Invisibility. Monk powers dealing with Strength; extra hp, DR, more attacks per round. And Samurai powers dealing with debuffing? Similar in a way to the theories that it should follow previous samurai class focus on Intimidation.
Perhaps cow an enemy with Dazing, Dominating, Immobilizing, Prone, Restraining, Slowing, Stunning, or Surprising?
Something like in the video, I'd hope to be describing a power in a unique way. I have very little problem with something like that. It's things that go too far. Now, I don't have a great example to explain what makes me nervous, but anything akin to overtly magical abilities distresses me.
We would then just be calling Ki arcane.
At that point, then, what is the point of making "Ki" different than "Martial"? If one is "you defeat your opponent with physical skill" and the other is "you defeat your opponent with physical skill, except there is some kind of 'Ki' flavor", than there is no point to the latter.
I actually hesitated to link that particular video because what it shows is perhaps not flashy enough to justify a new power source. As I said before, I really want to see stuff like long-range energy waves released by swords (stuff like the Tales of... series' Demon Fang attack, Inuyasha' Wind Scar, etc), pure energy shots (I really liked Yusuke's Spirit Gun in Yu Yu Hakusho, and grew up watching DBZ), arrows charged with spiritual power (again, Inuyasha), fist-strikes charged with power (Naruto has quite a few good ones), and other such things.
You can't really say that having something this flashy makes it Arcane, since it is heavily differentiated by the fact that it is still built around weapon-use and pure "energy" rather than elemental power, complicated ritual, demonic/fey/star pacts, or the like. An Arcane character uses spells, but a Ki character infuses things with his own power and projects that power outward. A Swordmage may use a sword, but all of his powers are spells that neither depend on the sword's strength or extend that sword's strength, like a Ki character's powers would (should?).
Again, reiterating my point on absurdities, I just don't want anything like summoning a dragon from the sword, cutting an interdimensional portal to Hell, or anything like that. I'm not the kind of guy you'd want to be sitting next to watching Makai Tensho with, I cringe at the horror of watching Sonny Chiba strike a cool, but ultimately pointless pose in an effort to block. Too much of a risk for getting stabbed.
Summoning a dragon from a sword would be arcane, and so would cutting open a portal. They are neat tricks for Swordmages and magic swords, but not necessarily what we have been discussing. Also, inaccuracies in the portrayal of swordplay (the mundane part) in random shows are not exactly what we are discussing either. But to be honest, I am the kind of guy who cringes whenever complete nonsense shows up in mostly down-to-earth shows like Rurouni Kenshin, but cheers whenever the hero releases a flashy super-move in more fantastic fare. ;)
Well, the example fits my aversion. Simply put, we need to address what exactly the limitations are of each power source, which is the very reason why some people don't think Oriental classes should be the only ones with the Ki source.
Nonsense. The only logical connection between Ki and Oriental classes is that asian history and pop-culture has provided most of the inspiration for the power source itself. At the level of actual classes, the two should not be necessarily linked.
Are we going to see 4e Monks with ranged abilities bordering on the arcane? Should we have melee characters with powers that have a range?
I am not going to grossly over-simplify the issue, but if we think that Ki classes should have blatantly offensive ranged powers, than it would feel exactly like playing a Wizard with a Sword.
As I mentioned above, we already have a "Wizard with a Sword" class, the Swordmage, and it is nothing like what I envision "Ki" being. The Arcane Power Source is not as wide as you imagine.
To restate a favorable point: What if the Ki source was more subtle? What if it inflicted status effects in a radius of the character, rather than a allowed the character to deal damage at range.
Why should it be one or the other? Actually, the concept of "dealing status in a radius" is too generic to even use to define something... Doesn't the Warlord do that already, actually? It is positive status, rather than negative, but there is no reason it can't work the other way. You can't easily justify giving a Martial character the ability to strike with a sword at long range, but it is trivial to justify your suggestion as part of Martial.
Just as you overestimate how wide Arcane is, I think you underestimate the breadth of Martial.
Perhaps Ninja powers dealing with Stealth; like Invisibility.
A "Ki" Ninja should not exist. We already have a great class for a "ninja" built around stealth and shadowy assassination: the Rogue. The only niche left for the Ninja is the "magical ninja" that creates shadow images of himself, substitutes himself for a log in order to dodge attacks, and summons giant frog to ride into battle while he breathes fire. This is really more of an Arcane character than a Ki character, because it involves real magic ritual, magical scrolls, and elemental attacks.
Monk powers dealing with Strength; extra hp, DR, more attacks per round.
If the monk is going to be limited to things like that, then it should be Martial. I am hoping for Naruto-style 'Gentle Fist" attacks that shut down the enemy's lifeforce, and even proper DBZ/Yu Yu Hakusho-style spiritual energy blasts. That would be a fitting Ki Striker.
I would prefer for such a class to have a different name, though. I really want to see a proper Divine "monk", built around the classic image of the classic Buddhist monk who wanders the world, fighting off evil spirits using seals made from Buddhist Sutras... Hopefully we will get one under a different name.
And Samurai powers dealing with debuffing? Similar in a way to the theories that it should follow previous samurai class focus on Intimidation.
Perhaps cow an enemy with Dazing, Dominating, Immobilizing, Prone, Restraining, Slowing, Stunning, or Surprising?
Again, if this is what you want the Samurai to be, you should be asking for a Martial Samurai, not a Ki Samurai. Honestly, I have no problem with a Martial Samurai who does such a thing. I have been wanting such a class for a long time, and the image of the Samurai (with their intimidating helmets and reputation for fearlessness) suits that kind of class very well. But it just isn't the kind of thing you need a whole new Power Source for, when it is just the more aggressive mirror image of the Warlord.
Actually, Musashi was born prior to the Tokugawa Shogunate, prior enough to serve in the battle of...Sekigahara, was it? He claims to have participated in five or six battles, the last of which was the Rebellion at Shimabara.
But, we're mincing words. What you claim is a samurai and is not a samurai, is akin to anyone at all defining what is and what is not "american."
It is worth discussing what we want to use as the inspiration for a samurai class though. We don't want to look to Heian court aristocrats for inspiration, as an example. As you say in the quote below, the nature of the samurai changed dramatically over the course of a few hundred years. Samurai in the Genji-Heike days were very different from Sengoku era samurai in a number of different ways. If we want to have a common ground to stand on when talking about what is necessary for a samurai class, we need to talk about what a samurai is.
Iizasa Choisai? Kamiizumi Nobutsuna? Oda Nobunaga? Yagyu Sekishusai?
Or, if we must go far enough back to the Genji-Heike War, Yo*****une? What made any of these men different from one another? Didn't all of them put their lives on the line for some cause?
Honestly, I am having a little trouble following your point here. I suppose that you are asking me which of those men I would put forward as a good example of a samurai. Honestly, I don't think you can point to any one man and claim that he is the one true example of a samurai. Some became legendary due to their prowess with a sword, some due to their peerless archery, and others due to their tactical genius. But all of them have claim to being famous samurai, and to put one above the rest does disservice to the skills of the other.
In order to fully understand what samurai were, it is necessary to look at the broader picture of Japanese history, rather than focusing on a single person or era.
Anyways, you also asked:
Weren't they above the peasantry?
Honestly, that is open to debate. Until the Tokugawa shogunate decreed that the peasantry had to forfeit their arms and established their ranking system for the samurai and daimyo classes, the line was extremely blurry. It was completely possible for a total commoner to become a samurai, or even a lord. Heck, Toyotomi Hideyoshi was most likely of common birth, and he became the most powerful man in all of Japan.
The ebb and flow of the Samurai class has them as mercenaries, to feudal knights, to warrior-gentry, and finally to bureaucrats. They can't be a class of warriors without a war to fight, so they have to have some source of income. Fencing coaches were still in a high demand in the Edo period. If one traveled and worked on their swordsmanship and beat the clan's fencing coach, then his skill at arms would afford him a grander stipend. So, samurai didn't give up their ways of combat, they just refined it for the renaissance of Japan.
You are contradicting yourself here. You say that "they can't be a class of warriors without a war to fight", but go on to say that the samurai somehow maintained their status as a warrior class. Honestly, I don't think this is the case. Japan did not have any significant wars for the 250 year duration of the Edo period. During this time, the samurai class was supported by fixed stipends given to them by the government.
A great example of what life was really like for the samurai in that age is Musui's Story, the autobiographical account of an Edo-era samurai named Katsu Kokichi. Even though he was skilled at swordfighting and horseback riding, and loved collecting valuable swords, Katsu Kokichi was considered an unmitigated disgrace by his family. They wanted him to actually make something of himself by studying and getting a job as a bureaucrat. Never able to do so, Katsu Kokichi made a living buying and selling swords in the local marketplace, and by organizing other local toughs and out of work samurai to shake down local businessmen for protection money.
During the Edo period, the samurai class produced a number of famous works of writing on the topics of honor, completely inventing the concept of bushido along the way. However, these writings were really the work of people who were desperate to justify the existence of their social class in a world that no longer needed them.
You say that fencing coaches were popular during the Edo period, but fencing schools are not the same thing as war. Fencing didn't even necessarily confer respect, as the case of Katsu Kokichi indicates. In any case, the Edo period did not produce any warriors who can be considered to be on par with the famous war-heros of centuries prior.
This is a long-winded way of me saying that in my opinion no one should look to the Edo period for inspiration when designing a samurai class.
Much like the knights of the Renaissance no longer carried around suits of armor, armor was useless where firearms prevailed, so they refined close combat with thinner blades.
Actually, this is a common mistake. Heavy plate armor was in use until the mid 17th century, pretty much the entire Renaissance. Rapiers are other thin blades were also more commonly used as weapons in duels between unarmored civilians.
Think DBZ. Magic Missile vs. Kamehameha.
What does Hawaii's King have to do with Magic Missile? :evillaugh
(Just Kidding.)
...Now I have to figure out how to explain to my Sensei why his "ironwood" Naginata is now an "ironwood" staff...
Glaive.
Actually, here's an idea-how about the Samurai class being handled in a way similar to the way WOTC handled the Gladiator class in Dragon? As a series of multiclass feats that grant you a variety of abilities with a given fighting style? You could have one for fighting with a single bastard sword (katana), one for fighting with the daisho, one for archery etc. What do you guys think?
But a lot of people, me included, like to have specific rules for the subclasses. Just makes them feel more officially subclassy, I'm guessing. You can trace the evolution of the samurai, from NPC fighter subclass, to playable PC fighter subclass, through Fighter kit, through prestige class, to ultimately, the base samurai class.
Sure, each individual in each game can roleplay their character as anything they want, really, and no one's likely to stop them. But there's fun in having a predefined template you can tinker with, as well.
This is D&D, this is fantasy! I can only speak from personal experience, but most fantasy based samurai I can think of are very much about focusing their inner spirit and such. Half the time they might as well just be a monk with a sword. A monk focuses his Ki so that he can break wooden boards and smash stone blocks, and just as much so a samurai can focus his Ki so that he can cleave steel. A monk can paralyze with a touch, and a samurai can do the same with a shout or even a stare. They might channel their Ki differently but the important part is that they both channel it.
To all those saying that Samurai are just Fighters with different flavor, I have this to say. So are Paladins, and they like the Samurai also started out as a fighter sub-class. Both the Samurai and the Paladin are types warriors who are steeped in an amount of cultural mythos. While a historically Samurai might just be a Fighter with different flavor, the same is probably also true of a historically based Paladin. If the concept of Paladin is worthy of its own distinct class so is the concept of a Samurai.
Paladin deals with fighting unholy creatures. That's why he has partial cleric abilities.
Samurai is nothing more than an Eastern version of a Feudal Knight. It's his sense of Eastern Honor that seems alien to the Westerners.
The whole thing about Ki and stuff, it's no different than a knight showing his own Roland-like courage on the battlefield.
If there is such a class, there should be a Cavalier, with (Western) Knight and (Eastern) Samurai or Wu Xia Nobles are sub-classes.
I imagine that the 4e Samurai will be a defender using the Ki power source (with the Ninja being a striker using Ki and the Monk being a Leader or Controller using Ki.)
How this will work mechanically I'm not sure yet but it seems the most likely.
I must admit that I have the same kind of thinking as you my friend!
Paladin deals with fighting unholy creatures.
Samurai is nothing more than an Eastern version of a Feudal Knight. It's his sense of Eastern Honor that seems alien to the Westerners.
The whole thing about Ki and stuff, it's no different than a knight showing his own Roland-like courage on the battlefield.
If there is such a class, there should be a Cavalier, with (Western) Knight and (Eastern) Samurai or Wu Xia Nobles are sub-classes.
I completely agree with this. I think to make a class based just on a code of honor is ridiculous.
Paladin deals with fighting unholy creatures. That's why he has partial cleric abilities.
That's flavor inspired by D&D and other modern RPGs. Historically paladin's were no more charged with fighting unholy monsters than any other knight, because that's what they were knights. Paladin was just a title for the most distinguished knights.
Samurai is nothing more than an Eastern version of a Feudal Knight. It's his sense of Eastern Honor that seems alien to the Westerners.
A samurai is about more than just a code of honor. In fact a samurai need be no more bound by any type of honor than a Paladin. Samurai is far more about a particular style of fighting and the discipline through which that style is perfected.
The whole thing about Ki and stuff, it's no different than a knight showing his own Roland-like courage on the battlefield.
Ki isn't about any kind of courage. It's about harnessing the power of ones own inner spirit.
Paladin deals with fighting unholy creatures. That's why he has partial cleric abilities.
Samurai is nothing more than an Eastern version of a Feudal Knight. It's his sense of Eastern Honor that seems alien to the Westerners.
The whole thing about Ki and stuff, it's no different than a knight showing his own Roland-like courage on the battlefield.
If there is such a class, there should be a Cavalier, with (Western) Knight and (Eastern) Samurai or Wu Xia Nobles are sub-classes.
Well, certainly, the word "Samurai" is pretty close to being the Japanese equivalent to the English word "Knight". For the most part, the actual differences between Japanese Samurai and European Knights have been greatly exaggerated across history. Even the "code of honor" issue is a more complex issue that is not a clear point of separation. However, this is totally irrelevant to the existence of a "Samurai" class in D&D.
I mean, "Paladin" is a word that originally refers to the warriors of Charlemagne, such as the famous Roland, which has none of the connotations of "holy warrior who uses cleric-like abilities to fight unholy creatures" that it has in D&D. If you tried to stick to historical truth, they would just be Fighters, and you would lose out on a good name for a popular archetype (the "Holy Warrior").
Similar to the "Holy Warrior" archetype, the "wandering swordsman with mystical skill" is a pretty popular archetype with well-defined abilities that doesn't easily fall into the Fighter class. So are the "warrior who inspires dread in his foes" and "armored archer who infuses his arrows with mystical power" archetypes. Since these archetypes have some connection to Japanese pop culture and the mystique of the samurai, then it makes sense to use the Japanese word "Samurai" to refer to a class built on one of these archetypes.
It is a lot like how a "warlord" is not exactly a good concept for a class, but it still works wonderfully as a name for the "warrior who leads others to victory" archetype. A Samurai in of itself is not a good concept for a class, but it is a good name for several not-entirely-unrelated class concepts that are very viable and interesting.
Ki isn't about any kind of courage. It's about harnessing the power of ones own inner spirit.
Still don't see how a samurai can have some measure of ki control and a European knight couldn't -- whatever that Western equivalent of ki could be.
And I say this as a Fan of All Things Samurai.
You want an archetype that embodies controlling ki for martial purpose, a more appropriate name would be Kensei (or Kensai).
Otherwise, what you create for a Samurai class or role, I think should also apply to a Knight class or role.
But 3+4e aren't going that route: WotC releases many classes and for different archetypes, some more specific than others. 4e Class Roles help this; now we have separate base classes for a soldier warrior (Fighter) and a soldier commander (Warlord). They do this to release more D&D books.
The downside: classification looks messy.
The upside: there's more chance of an archetype you want getting a focus treatment, and with a full power array, you can vary your specific archetypes more; that said, there's nothing against making a troop of knights consist of a mounted Fighter, Paladin, & Ranger (tho' knights tended away from bows) instead of depending on a Knight class.
Wuxia & Samurai with PHB1:
The Kensei Fighter Paragon path is good for a samurai warrior archetype, having a big, accurate strike, a parry, and a move where you get to hit 3 times and move between each strike. Many normal Fighter moves work, too, Into the Fray (L10) and Reign of Terror (L25) being of note. Not everything a samurai typically does has to scream "samurai!"; go watch a Kurosawa film. The wuxia might be touched with Ranger or Rogue (more movement, multiple strikes per attack, ranged attacks, ...).
Still don't see how a samurai can have some measure of ki control and a European knight couldn't -- whatever that Western equivalent of ki could be.
The European knight does have an equivalent, absolute devotion to his patron deity, or in other words a Paladin. The Paladin is actually in many ways a better representation of a fantasy knight (especially one with any type of sudo-mystical powers) than a fighter, who has more of a gritty warrior feel.
Even so, just because a class is called a Samurai doesn't mean the character has to be eastern, just like a class being called a Paladin doesn't mean the character has to be western.
You want an archetype that embodies controlling ki for martial purpose, a more appropriate name would be Kensei (or Kensai).
Actually, what you keep describing as a Kensai is what I and (based on what I've read) others seem to be talking about when we talk about a Ki powered Samurai. A masterful swordsman whose purpose is bound by his dedication to his weapon of choice. Kensai might be a more appropriate name but Samurai is a name with greater public recognition. I for one had never even heard of a Kensai before the 3.5 Complete Warrior but Samurai was already a basic warrior archetype in my mind long before then, and I should imagine that the same is true of many others.
Otherwise, what you create for a Samurai class or role, I think should also apply to a Knight class or role.
I believe the 4e designers have actual gone on record that the old 3.5 knight was folded into the knew 4e Paladin. So perhaps you should stop trying to compare Samurai to Fighter and start comparing it to Paladin.
Actually that might not be an entirely bad idea. Take the Paladin swap out shields (and probably plate armor) for proficiency with military ranged weapons. Change all the powers that do a special damage type to psychic and or thunder damage. Reflavor his powers as glaring stare downs, forceful shouts, and wind cutting slashes. Then I think one might just have a rather nice start for a mystically inclined samurai. It's biggest failing would be in the lack of any reason to invest in DEX/INT for the unarmored Samurai archetype.
The fundamental differences between the samurai and the knight were technological and cultural, not mechanical. A samurai can certainly be adequately represented by the rules in the PHB, just like they could have been adequately represented by the basic rules in virtually any edition of virtually any roleplaying game. This will not stop Wizards from publishing a ki defender called the samurai, just as it has never stopped game publishers in the past from doing so, because that is what the public demands. That is what the public has always demanded.
For the love of all the gods, please stop the hurting.
I imagine that the 4e Samurai will be a defender using the Ki power source (with the Ninja being a striker using Ki and the Monk being a Leader or Controller using Ki.)
How this will work mechanically I'm not sure yet but it seems the most likely.
The samurai will use his ki as Iaijutsu focus for fear attacks, as a bonus to his reflexes, and fast strikes.
While the ninja is the stiker, the monk will be the leader in an oriental setting.
For the controller let say a Shugenja (or in chinese wu jen).
The Rokugan setting for D&D written by Wulf, Carman and Mason in 2001, include a copy of the samurai from the oriental adventure plus some more prestiges classes like the Lion's pride, etc.
In 2002 the same team of authors write The Way of the Samurai with more history and philosophie behind the samurai class as well as feats for each clan focus techniques for each clan.
The European knight does have an equivalent, absolute devotion to his patron deity, or in other words a Paladin. The Paladin is actually in many ways a better representation of a fantasy knight (especially one with any type of sudo-mystical powers) than a fighter, who has more of a gritty warrior feel.
A GOOD fantasy knight. But not all fantasy knights are GOOD-aligned. Paladins, IMHO, are those who represent a more religious order, such as the historical Knight Templars or Hospitallers, who pledge their loyalty to a deity (or pantheon), not some mortal overlord.
Granted, I have not yet picked up 4e, so I don't know if WotC have (slightly) loosen up alignment restriction for the Paladin as they did for Ranger in 3e.
However, I feel a samurai based on a Samurai X or Samurai Jack, etc. (anime) type samurai, more akin to a rogue than a fighter, would be justified. This samurai would be mobility based, typically wield a single bastard sword, and have a sort of kiai/iaijutsu/batojutsu ability to deal extra damage. Then, give it mystical abilities that one sees in (anime) situations like this and thinks "that's not really possible," and BOOM: you have a unique Ki Striker Samurai.
Otherwise, the class called "Samurai" would neither be akin enough to what I know and love by that name, but it would also not be distinct enough from any other class for me to feel that it was worthwhile.
Still don't see how a samurai can have some measure of ki control and a European knight couldn't -- whatever that Western equivalent of ki could be.
And I say this as a Fan of All Things Samurai.
You want an archetype that embodies controlling ki for martial purpose, a more appropriate name would be Kensei (or Kensai).
Otherwise, what you create for a Samurai class or role, I think should also apply to a Knight class or role.
(This post is purely in relation to gaming, not historical accuracy)
From a fluff standpoint Ki is something that is developed by practicing eastern martial arts. There has never (to my knowledge) been a class or power which was not eastern in origin. As such a western knight might have great discipline, but would not have Ki unless he was trained in the eastern tradition (IE took a class or feat or something that granted him Ki).
A western knight may have a lot of discipline, training and personal strength of will. Many of his powers may be mechanically similar in function to Ki powers but without that eastern training, he does not have Ki powers.
From a historical standpoint I completely agree with you. Cultural differences and social responsibilities aside they are very similar. In game context however, Ki is a very specific concept that is not part of the western knightly concept.
That is not to say that a knight could not come to learn Ki powers or a samurai learn the knightly traditions of discipline, but they are separate ideas and game classifications, which is what is relevant for this discussion.
If I have time and inclination I might refluff the Swordmage first level stuff to show how easy it is to make a samurai with existing rules.
But I do want to interject this: American Indian, Greek, Celtic, Norse, and African traditions all contained elements that were virtually the same as the ideas of Ki and Qi.
I'm not gonna say much, because frankly I'm sick of this topic.
But I do want to interject this: American Indian, Greek, Celtic, Norse, and African traditions all contained elements that were virtually the same as the ideas of Ki and Qi.
Agreed, but this is about game context which has a very narrow specific idea of what Ki is.
(This post is purely in relation to gaming, not historical accuracy)
From a fluff standpoint Ki is something that is developed by practicing eastern martial arts. There has never (to my knowledge) been a class or power which was not eastern in origin. As such a western knight might have great discipline, but would not have Ki unless he was trained in the eastern tradition (IE took a class or feat or something that granted him Ki).
A western knight may have a lot of discipline, training and personal strength of will. Many of his powers may be mechanically similar in function to Ki powers but without that eastern training, he does not have Ki powers.
From a historical standpoint I completely agree with you. Cultural differences and social responsibilities aside they are very similar. In game context however, Ki is a very specific concept that is not part of the western knightly concept.
That is not to say that a knight could not come to learn Ki powers or a samurai learn the knightly traditions of discipline, but they are separate ideas and game classifications, which is what is relevant for this discussion.
If I have time and inclination I might refluff the Swordmage first level stuff to show how easy it is to make a samurai with existing rules.
Ki, ki, ki ... all this for pitching ki as a game mechanic into the game.
The more I read into this the more I don't think Samurai should be a class. There was a time when I played an Eastern version of a Paladin character.
Why not offer ki to all the [generic] classes?
the ki power source will have some very marked differences from the martial power source because there is a lot that can be done with the special effects and power flavors of martial arts movies that’s different from our current martial power source. But I’m not telling you now what the differences are going to be.
Translation:
We don't know! Oh, gods, we don't know! Have mercy on our souls! Someone slipped that reference to the ki power source into the Player's Handbook draft at the last minute and our extremely capable editors missed it! Now we have to come up with an entirely duplicate set of classes and powers for this stupid second martial power source, just to appease the pimpled legions of anime and Kurosawa fans! Oh, the humanity! Why? Why?!
Translation:
That is a pretty far-fetched claim.
It is far more likely that he meant what he said: Ki is going to involve the special effects and different flavor of martial arts movies. That is a pretty valid way of doing things. Assuming that it was "snuck in there", that it was never approved by WotC, that they would go forward with it if it wasn't, or even that WotC looks down on the whole thing, is completely ridiculous.
Why not offer ki to all the [generic] classes?
Because that wouldn't be racist.
A-hurf-durf-a-dur.
the ki power source will have some very marked differences from the martial power source because there is a lot that can be done with the special effects and power flavors of martial arts movies that’s different from our current martial power source. But I’m not telling you now what the differences are going to be.
Translation:We don't know! Oh, gods, we don't know! Have mercy on our souls! Someone slipped that reference to the ki power source into the Player's Handbook draft at the last minute and our extremely capable editors missed it! Now we have to come up with an entirely duplicate set of classes and powers for this stupid second martial power source, just to appease the pimpled legions of anime and Kurosawa fans! Oh, the humanity! Why? Why?!
LOL
That is a pretty far-fetched claim.
It is far more likely that he meant what he said: Ki is going to involve the special effects and different flavor of martial arts movies. That is a pretty valid way of doing things. Assuming that it was "snuck in there", that it was never approved by WotC, that they would go forward with it if it wasn't, or even that WotC looks down on the whole thing, is completely ridiculous.
Yes, and? ;)
But not as deep, with the spiritual aspect rolled in. (Eastern view)
From Western history...Ki was not even a blimp.;)
Ki, ki, ki ... all this for pitching ki as a game mechanic into the game.
The more I read into this the more I don't think Samurai should be a class. There was a time when I played an Eastern version of a Paladin character.
Why not offer ki to all the [generic] classes?
I always thought of Samurai as more of a mix of Striker and Leader. The leader because of thier traditional place in the pre-Meiji Restoration Japanese culture when groups went to war. The Striker because that tends to fit more with the way they are shown in popular culture as walking death machines that cut people in half in one sword strike and the like. The best example from older edditions I can give of a Samurai's palce as a striker is in the 3rd eddition OA, the Iaijutsu Duelest PrC. No armor yet still hard to hit, all about moving first and landing the one devistating blow.
I will disagree on that...the 'Zen' factor was touched by certain cultures.
But not as deep, with the spiritual aspect rolled in. (Eastern view)
From Western history...Ki was not even a blimp.;)
Then why introduce it, if you're not going to offer it to all the other [albeit Western-derived archetypal] classes?
Just stick with Magic and Psionics.
Then why introduce it, if you're not going to offer it to all the other [albeit Western-derived archetypal] classes?
Just stick with Magic and Psionics.
What on earth does "offer it to the rest of the classes" mean? Ki is going to be its own power source, so Ki should be found primarily in Ki classes. It seems like you saying that every class should have access to abilities of every power source, or something, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Anyways, I honestly don't see how Eastern-derived or Western-derived has to do with anything. The important thing is not making a English Samurai feasible, it is making Brellish, Cyran, or Kalashtar samurai possible (to use Eberron nations and races as an example). Since "Samurai" is going to be an ability set, not a social station or given rank, then I don't think that will be hard, almost regardless of what the people at WotC decide a samurai will be.
Perhaps to address your comment more directly, it doesn't matter that the Ki Power Source is primarily inspired by East-Asian traditions and pop-culture, since it will only appear in the game as something that exists alongside "Western" classes like the Paladin in a non-earth context. Still, since the Ki Power Source is almost certainly inspired by Hong Kong martial arts films, anime, and videogames, I don't see any reason to weaken a player's ability to make that connection by trying to obscure that link and Westernize the concepts.
Moving on from Ranger REG's argument, I want to look at things from a completely different angle, let me use King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table as an analogy. All of the men are "Knights" (they are called such even though some are probably of much higher station and deserve greater titles), but that does not mean they are all part of the same (imaginary) Knight class. I would describe Arthur himself as a Warlord, some others would also be Warlords, others would be Fighters, one or two would be Paladins, one may be a Cleric, and some others may be Rogues or Rangers (in some tales, Jack the Giant Killer became a Knight of the Round Table, and he is easily one of those). Yet, at the same time, there is a certain image of the "Knight" that is missing if you assign them just those classes (such as the idea of the mounted warrior skilled with the lance), so it might be a good idea to create a class around that missing archetype that might fit a limited sub-set of the Knights of the Round Table, and you might as well call that class a Knight.
Similarly, even if you can describe almost every one of the "Seven Samurai" from Akira Kurosawa's classic as a Warlord, Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, or Barbarian, if there is even one character that can't be perfectly described with an existing class it might still be worthwhile to create a Samurai class to fill that niche. If you broaden your look across pop-culture beyond Kurosawa's (fairly realisitic and certainly non-fantasy) works, then you are most likely to find archetypes of people called "samurai" that don't work perfectly well as an existing class, and thus a Samurai class that fills one of those archetypes becomes even more necessary.
I'm not gonna say much, because frankly I'm sick of this topic.
But I do want to interject this: American Indian, Greek, Celtic, Norse, and African traditions all contained elements that were virtually the same as the ideas of Ki and Qi.
I finally figured out how I want to respond to this...
Who cares? The important part of the Ki Power Source is not going to be the historical/traditional metaphysical theories of Ki and the greater natural philosophies that it was a part of. It doesn't matter if those resembled things found in other cultures.
The important part is that the Ki Power Source is inspired by the fanciful set of things like Wuxia, Hong Kong Martial Arts movies, flashy anime attacks like the Kamehameha Wave, and countless other products of East-Asian culture that occasionally justify their supernatural elements with the word "Ki".
So, unless you want to argue that the American Indians, Norse, Greeks, Africans, and Celts have created a distinct and influential culture of supernatural martial arts movies and videogames, their connection to the Ki Power Source (and thus this discussion) is tenuous at best.
Anyways, I honestly don't see how Eastern-derived or Western-derived has to do with anything. The important thing is not making a English Samurai feasible, it is making Brellish, Cyran, or Kalashtar samurai possible (to use Eberron nations and races as an example). Since "Samurai" is going to be an ability set, not a social station or given rank, then I don't think that will be hard, almost regardless of what the people at WotC decide a samurai will be.
In my not particularly humble estimation ... you, sir or madam, win this thread.
In my not particularly humble estimation ... you, sir or madam, win this thread.
I would second this motion. It is possibly the most well conceived thing stated in the Future Releases forum in some time (and I LIKE a lot of the posters here.)
So, unless you want to argue that the American Indians, Norse, Greeks, Africans, and Celts have created a distinct and influential culture of supernatural martial arts movies and videogames, their connection to the Ki Power Source (and thus this discussion) is tenuous at best.
There is a Native American character in the Street Fighter franchise, and there are martial art styles that do come from Greece, Israel, Russia and Brazil and other places even Africa. I even remember some video game characters who do use those fighting styles too.
Currently the sneakiest Asian-based class ever, has got to be the Shaman. That one's being confirmed a number of times, and isn't in any Ki source. The Shaman are certainly an Asian-based class, as the first people named Shaman were from the Siberian/Mongolian/Turkic part of the world. And then they started to label people who did "shamanic" practices anywhere else in the world as "shamans" as it's a rather universal tradition everywhere from early Europe to Africa, from China to the Native Americans have had Shamans at some point.
In my not particularly humble estimation ... you, sir or madam, win this thread.
I would second this motion. It is possibly the most well conceived thing stated in the Future Releases forum in some time (and I LIKE a lot of the posters here.)
Wow... Thank you.
There is a Native American character in the Street Fighter franchise, and there are martial art styles that do come from Greece, Israel, Russia and Brazil and other places even Africa. I even remember some video game characters who do use those fighting styles too.
Street Fighter is a Japanese videogame. Almost certainly most of the other videogames you are mentioning are also Japanese videogames (I am willing to bet Tekken or Dead or Alive if you are thinking about fighting games). If anything, you are proving my point rather than discounting it.
Either way, it is not like I ever said that other cultures do not have martial arts, or that they are totally ignored, or anything like that. However, certain kinds of asian pop-culture have directly linked martial arts training, "ki", and blatantly supernatural powers in a fairly distinct way, and this is a fairly distinct origin for the Ki Power Source. Any other influence would be merely indirect.
Currently the sneakiest Asian-based class ever, has got to be the Shaman. That one's being confirmed a number of times, and isn't in any Ki source. The Shaman are certainly an Asian-based class, as the first people named Shaman were from the Siberian/Mongolian/Turkic part of the world. And then they started to label people who did "shamanic" practices anywhere else in the world as "shamans" as it's a rather universal tradition everywhere from early Europe to Africa, from China to the Native Americans have had Shamans at some point.
If people that can be called "shamans" are everywhere, then how is the Shaman an "Asian" class? Even if it has its etymological roots in a word used to describe some particular groups in Asia, the actual word is almost never used in such a limited fashion in modern usage.
Anyways, Siberian/Mongolian/Turkic Asia is not in any conceivable way the same thing as the parts of Asia where the inspiration for the Ki Power Source comes from, so your argument is essentially using a different definition of the word "Asian" than how it has been used so far in this thread.
I am not sure how this discussion relates to the topic at hand, though...
And the Shaman is an example on how non-Ki characters can be Asian, since everyone seems to be implying that all Asian characters must use the Ki power source rather than something else like the Primal or Martial power sources.
If I were to say the word Shaman to a friend I can almost gaurantee you that that person is not going to immediately associates the word with an Asian origin or even that the person would even connect it to anything Asian.
Now if I said the word Ki, there's a whole different story. Most people would think of Asian martial arts movies or Asian martial arts in general.
It's true that there are people in other cultures who have studied Asian Martial arts and in turn studied ki. This does not mean that the idea of ki is not Asian or does not carry Asian connotations. This means that non-Asian people studied an Asian concept.
Also, while the term Shaman may have originated in Asia the practice did not. It was a term that started in Asia to describe a greater world phenomenon, whereas with Ki, the idea was unique to Asia and then spread to other parts of the world as an accessory to Asian martial arts styles.
On top of this, I don't really see what the fuss is about grouping all of the Asian classes in one book. People say it's racist. Maybe it is, but so is me saying "hey, you don't have the same skin colour as me."
Perhaps a bad example, but the point I'm trying to illustrate is that there's nothing wrong with acknowledging a difference between two peoples. If I were to acknowledge that other people are not the same as me it doesn't make me a bad person, as much as it is racist in that it's acknowledging that they are different because of their race.
The classes that are inspired by Asian ideas, likewise are much different then the ones inspired by western tradition and while perhaps racist I don't see it as derogative or in any way putting down these Asian ideas. The Asian classes have a distinct flavour and feel, even ones that don't necessarily make use of ki according to a historical perspective (Wu-Jen for example).
Does it make 100% sense? No. But then we play a game where we pretend to be dragon people, demon spawn, or any other number of crazy things. The worlds we set our games on don't have economy or ecology that makes a lick of sense, especially considering how many intelligent species there are.
Further more, it'd be a very simple thing to reflavour Wu-jen to incorporate ki. Is it 100% accurate? No, it's not, but then our healers wear armor and fight up close in many cases, not what one typically sees when one looks at people who have allegedly healed people in the past.
And the final point really - Yeah, I can make a character and call him a Fighter or Paladin and Samurai. I can also make a Fighter and call him a Paladin. I can make a Wizard and call him a Warlock or vice versa. I can make a Ranger, make sure he picks up thievery and call him a Rogue.
Most of our classes can be rolled into others in some way, but why should they be? For one, that's not profitable for WoTC. For two, it's fun to have more classes and more options.
The point is that there's plenty of justification on why only "Asian" classes should not be limited to Ki. There's room certainly room for non-Asian monks. Whatever the Ki Defender is if there is one, can similarly enough be any number of non-Asian characters.
And the Shaman is an example on how non-Ki characters can be Asian, since everyone seems to be implying that all Asian characters must use the Ki power source rather than something else like the Primal or Martial power sources.
Oh, I see.
Well, I don't really think that there needs to be a direct correlation between the Ki Power Source and classes inspired by Asian things either. I would hate to see a situation where every Ki class given an East-Asian name and a no class in any other Power Source has an East-Asian name. As I have mentioned earlier in this thread and elsewhere, I would love to see an Arcane Ninja, a Divine class inspired by the stereotypical traveling Buddhist monk so often seen in anime, and that I would have no problem with a Martial Samurai so long as it is doe well. I don't think there is a problem with associating the Ki Power Source pretty strongly with East-Asian classes and names, but I do agree that locking them together would be bad.
Most of my recent posts have simply been pointing out that the Ki Power Source has specific inspirations which are strongly associated with East Asian countries like China, Korea, and Japan, and that denying that origin and trying to completely disassociate D&D "Ki" from those origins is not going to be really possible (or even worthwhile). However, that does not mean that only characters from an "Asian" culture should be able to have a Ki Power Source class, or that every "Asian" class should belong to the Ki Power Source.
In other words, Street Fighter is a game that portrays martial arts and the abilities of martial artists in a way that would not happen if it were not seen through the lens of Japanese pop-culture, but that same lens does not care whether or not the characters and their martial arts styles are actually Japanese. Seen through the lens of "Ki" and Japanese pop-culture, even a American Air Force officer can shoot shockwaves of energy from his hands simply because he is that badass (Guile was always one of my favorites). This is how I imagine the Ki Power Source working.
To move on, I guess I might as well list out a few things I imagine as "Ki" classes and a few things that I do not.
Monk: The classic D&D monk is Ki, because he is the poster child for martial training leads to supernatural abilities.
Samurai: Could go any number of ways depending on exact version. The guy who uses pure physical skill would be Martial. The guy who shoots shockwaves from his sword would be Ki.
"Buddhist Monk" AKA that guy who seals demons with sutras and talismans: Divine, no question.
Shugenja: Actually, I hate this one from Rokugan, since the actual "Shugenja" of history were much closer to the classic Monk class than anything else, and might be better off as a Divine Striker or something if they had to be their own thing. The so-called Shugenja of Rokugan would probably be Arcane or Divine, and could pretty easily be folded into the Wizard, Cleric, or even Shaman (or maybe something else upcoming), I think.
Ninja: As I said above, Arcane works.
Onmyoji: I would actually prefer a chinese name for such a class, since the "taoist sage" is a similar and stronger archetype, but this would not be Ki. Arcane, Divine, Elemental, I don't know, but I don't imagine it as Ki.
Meanwhile, I can also imagine a few non-asian things being "Ki", such as new versions of formerly Psionic classes like the Soulknife, or totally new classes and ideas. A Ki-based archer sounds good to me.
...
In other words, Street Fighter is a game that portrays martial arts and the abilities of martial artists in a way that would not happen if it were not seen through the lens of Japanese pop-culture, but that same lens does not care whether or not the characters and their martial arts styles are actually Japanese. Seen through the lens of "Ki" and Japanese pop-culture, even a American Air Force officer can shoot shockwaves of energy from his hands simply because he is that badass (Guile was always one of my favorites). This is how I imagine the Ki Power Source working.
I have to say that I see Ki as having this same potential as well, and for the same reasons.
For the record, I would really love to see a Ki power source with after-images, reality-defying physical feats, and, of course, energy or other things coming out of nowhere.
(BTW, I feel that everyone looking for a Martial Controller is really looking for a Ki Controller.)
That doesn't really count for much though, since by the time of the Tokugawa Shogunate, samurai was a completely ceremonial title. Members of the samurai class were more encouraged to study to become bureaucrats than practice swordplay. On the same note, Musashi was also a product of the Edo period, and thus not indicative of the samurai as a warrior class in any way, shape, or form.
IIRC, It's not quite precise (I'm from Japan). They were not completely ceremonial title as you said. Samurai were the highest social caste throughout Tokugawa Shogunate and they were encouraged to be capable of BOTH literay (or bureaucratic) and martial arts (which was/is called Bun-bu-ryōdō). If they were completely cremonial title, it would be very difficult to explain well about the dynamism of the late Tokugawa Era into the modern Meiji Era lead by lower rank samurai. There were many swordmen who worked and fighted for their own faith during that changing era, such as Sakamoto Ryoma, Yamaoka Tesshu, Shinsen-gumi, etc, etc, famous among people in Japan.
And, Musashi was NOT a product of the Edo period, if you are talking about Musashi, the person himself, and not his stories told and written by others. He had been born and brought up in Azuchi-Momoyama Era before Tokugawa Shogunate arose, and his famous dual fights and his participation in wars were all during the whirling time of the last wars among warring states.
They are already members of iconic archtypes in Fantasy genre, as paladins and barbarians do. I guess today's fantasy are mature enough to blend lots of medieval cultural factors from all over the world.