Is there going to be a 4th edition update? Or equivalent? Anybody heard anything?
To the topic on hand... I personally doubt that Wizard's will produce the book themselves, but it's a good bet that *someone* will produce a similar book. With any luck it will be by good writers/designers.
But I doubt it will be WotC.
the mature area gone
Mmmmmhhhhh....
...aaaaaaaahhhhhhh.
Say it again, please.
Note: I would do the Google search for you, but I'm at work, and I imagine doing a Google search for the book title might raise some alarm bells in our IT department. :P
Personally, they are just rumors. It's obvious that WotC wants to make their product more kid-friendly and that's fine. I'm all for getting more people into gaming and I think its a great activity for kids (way better that Xbox). But, I'm not a kid and I don't play kid games. So, I'm hoping that some third party publishers will pick up the 'mature' flag and run with it. If a company does a good job, they could make a lot of money with their own versions of Book of Erotic Fantasy, Book of Vile Deeds, and drow source books. (Green Ronin's Plot and Poison was WAY better than WotC's Drow of the Underdark.)
Note: I would do the Google search for you, but I'm at work, and I imagine doing a Google search for the book title might raise some alarm bells in our IT department. :P
Same here, and I am the IT department.
I'm not trying to be a butt-kisser here, but Book of Erotic Fantasy was one of my favorite D&D books ever. It was surprisingly mature and genuinely useful.
Is there going to be a 4th edition update? Or equivalent? Anybody heard anything?
The book had a spell that made the target take 1d6/level damage when they had an orgasm.
Surprisingly mature, huh? :P
The book had a spell that made the target take 1d6/level damage when they had an orgasm.
Surprisingly mature, huh? :P
lol, not very mature, but funny and just what I might expect from a succubus.
It'll be on the intarwebs at least. Can't stop the intarwebs.
But I'll never see one.
I would not mind a tastefully done Fourth Edition supplement regarding adult topics, one written by grownups and with gamers over 18 as the target audience.
But I'll never see one.
I wouldn't really have a problem with such a book, but I guess I just don't see the need for it. What would such a book contain? Mechanics for sex? Why do you need that? Does your game require more detail than a narrative fade-to-black?
Or are you talking more about a low-crunch, high-fluff DM guide about running adult plots? Romance, more advanced politics, etc?
I wouldn't really have a problem with such a book, but I guess I just don't see the need for it. What would such a book contain? Mechanics for sex? Why do you need that? Does your game require more detail than a narrative fade-to-black?
Or are you talking more about a low-crunch, high-fluff DM guide about running adult plots? Romance, more advanced politics, etc?
The original book had a lot of mechanics. It was pretty entertaining and good for a laugh. I imagine that is how it was meant. It also had stuff in in like the %chance of producing offspring and fantasy birth control and sexual magic items and sex spells. I don't recall it being all that "mature" though.
The original book had a lot of mechanics. It was pretty entertaining and good for a laugh. I imagine that is how it was meant. It also had stuff in in like the %chance of producing offspring and fantasy birth control and sexual magic items and sex spells. I don't recall it being all that "mature" though.
Oh, yeah, I know what was in the book. I was asking Moody Loner what he meant by a "tasteful" book dealing with adult topics.
I actually wouldn't mind a book that is low-crunch high-fluff about running adult plots, Romance, more advanced politics, etc...
Someone is bound to find some way to release one, but I doubt it will be a big release.
I hope Wizards don't try to make 4.0 more kid-friendly, but I'm not too keen on seeing a load of failed attempts to be "mature" either.
Or are you talking more about a low-crunch, high-fluff DM guide about running adult plots? Romance, more advanced politics, etc?
Exactly this. Those of us with social issues would appreciate some advice for dealing with mature themes that doesn't involve God-awful dice tables and juvenile "demonic" spells.
Not to mention I always sweat the political games - would love some insight as to how to run a vicious, convoluted, Machiavellian twenty-NPCs-and-thirty-alliances game that would have the PCs looking for the nearest dungeon.
But if I ask for a mature book, I get the s****ing Book of Erotic Fantasy or the juvenile Book of Vile Darkness.
Which is why I'll never see it.
I did find some useful stuff in it, and I did use it for a...um mature/immture game. I wish it got more play time, it I think was ment a LITTLE TOUNGE IN CHEEK.
Last year I tried to run a game at gen con useing the book, and I was told not to by the people that own the con...
I would not mind a tastefully done Fourth Edition supplement regarding adult topics, one written by grownups and with gamers over 18 as the target audience.
But I'll never see one.
I can see a fan made one as a possibility. If money is involved, then I agree. Not a chance.
Sex is funny. I have no problem with a book on rpg eroticism that makes me laugh. Immature is not a synonym for bad. I wouldn't mind a book that covers crunch and fluff.
Book of Erotic Fantasy was one of my favorite D&D books ever.
Really? While it was nice to eventually see the Sex and D&D Phil & Dixie strip that Dragon magazine always teased us with but never delivered, I thought that the book was otherwise a disappointment.
The core classes were weak, most of the feats and magic items were lousy, the racial templates were mediocre, the appearance stat was counterproductive, and the mechanics for sex could have done with a bit of revision (they were adequate, but not really good).
I heard they got banned. The only book that got the OGL retracted. But again, only a rumor.
It'll be on the intarwebs at least. Can't stop the intarwebs.
No...
The OGL can not be pulled. Only the D20 System Trademark License can be pulled. After the BoEF was announced, WotC changed the STL (using the subject to change clause (that is unenforcable in most of the world)) to prohibit obscene material including "female nipples" from d20 labeled material on moral grounds. WotC then published the Book of vile darkness, 3.5 Monster Manual and Book of Exalted Deeds. Each of these books would have blatantly violated the D20 STL if they had been published by any other company.
It basically boiled down to WotC being hypocritically greedy and wanting to be the sole provider of "obscene" material for d20.
Or are you talking more about a low-crunch, high-fluff DM guide about running adult plots? Romance, more advanced politics, etc?
Exactly this. Those of us with social issues would appreciate some advice for dealing with mature themes that doesn't involve God-awful dice tables and juvenile "demonic" spells.
Not to mention I always sweat the political games - would love some insight as to how to run a vicious, convoluted, Machiavellian twenty-NPCs-and-thirty-alliances game that would have the PCs looking for the nearest dungeon.
But if I ask for a mature book, I get the s****ing Book of Erotic Fantasy or the juvenile Book of Vile Darkness.
Such a book would be a fantastic DMing tool. I'd buy it before buying any setting book, or Monster Manual.
I'm not trying to be a butt-kisser here, but Book of Erotic Fantasy was one of my favorite D&D books ever. It was surprisingly mature and genuinely useful.
Is there going to be a 4th edition update? Or equivalent? Anybody heard anything?
I don't think so since it was done by a third party and is most probably easy to apply for 4th edition, but don't quote me on that. I'm a newb to D&D, but I'm guessing since it's done by a third party then it was never made solely for 3rd or 3.5 edition but to be applied wherever sex with another player might happen or if they want to bring in the new monsters and gods that are in the book.
Things should remain the same, but I have no idea, I'm just guessing, but that should be accurate.
I bought the book, for some good laughs..and the ahh... articals
I did find some useful stuff in it, and I did use it for a...um mature/immture game. I wish it got more play time, it I think was ment a LITTLE TOUNGE IN CHEEK.
Last year I tried to run a game at gen con useing the book, and I was told not to by the people that own the con...
I'll admit without embaressment that I bought mine for the reason and when reading found it quite funny with sexual diseases. Honestly if those deseases were real and we were told about them alot of guys would rarther chop "it" off rarther than risk it. One image was of little insect like things with claws. Kinda like the literal term for "crabs".
There's several partially nude photos aswell for illistrations, though more artistic nude and altered images to show marriage and other such things.
One thing I found funny was height in sex. Such as a short person can add to skills in oral, whilst taking penalties in sex whilst being taller is the reverse. I don't have the book on me (since I'm downstairs and don't want my parents to see it) but the information is fun to have if you want to either have some point where the team has an orgy, couple have a romantic moment or you enter some dungeon and there's a wizard who's been taking advantage of women and uses a spell on one of the women. One spell I remember is where ti makes them drop their weapons, armour and groap themselves.
Really I see nothing wrong with the book. It's good to have a bit of fun in your games and if you're all adults in the group then there really is nothing wrong with it.
About giving a bad name however, I'm afraid the western society hasn't yet outgrown the embaressment fully yet and besides. There's still strickt religions who look down on D&D anyway, but for now video games are the hot button which annoys me.
I wouldn't really have a problem with such a book, but I guess I just don't see the need for it. What would such a book contain? Mechanics for sex? Why do you need that? Does your game require more detail than a narrative fade-to-black?
Or are you talking more about a low-crunch, high-fluff DM guide about running adult plots? Romance, more advanced politics, etc?
The Book of Erotic Fantasy had base classes and prestige classes that were sexually themed, as well as magic items. They were interesting but no one at my table ever used any of them. The book also had stuff on pregnancy and the likelihood of hybrid births. That is occasionally good to have. And we did use this a few times.
We once had a slutty sorceress in the party who would go around picking up warriors in bars. She eventually got pregnant. We use the BoEF to find out what race her kid would be there were hybrid issues. The other time was when two PC characters got married at the end of a campaign we used the BoEF to figure out if they had children; the characters were ½ Orc and ½ Elf.
I have been in games with one or two characters had sex on the brain. Having rules for the things they want to do gives them focus so they don’t go sex crazy.
The level of adult content in a game really should be up to the players in the game. If Wizards nixes any Adult oriented book I would be very disappointed. They could force any one printing a 4e BoEF to wrap the books in black plastic the way porn mags get wraped… >.> so I hear… :cough: But if they do that I would expect better pictures than the current BoEF.
Come to think of it, did anyone at Valar say what the Kundalini's weapon and armor proficiencies were? Or should we default to monk proficiencies?
This though, hmm, not too sure. Not any time soon given the advent of the new edition and no one wanting to "tarnish" the good name...heh.
Not sure what the laws are concerning licensing and copyrights for 4th ed, though I'm pretty sure they took alot more time orchestrating those this time around.
There have been actual religions that have had sex based rituals or elements and having a rules set or just fluff to help incorporate them into a setting would be nice. An example would be a fertility ritual for a good harvest. I beleive that was the religion of Asura, though I could be wrong.
I already have the idea to include a custom religion with some elements in my own campaign. Its basically the "love and fertility" religion. Not sure if its ever been done but I thought this one would include both a male and female deity. I also looked at the greek religion of Aphrodite for some inspiration on how to do it good. Hopefully it turns out all right.
I would like to see a book like this myself. The mechanics for determining how many kids you have and such would be fun element for a lot of campaigns. Though I will admit that, although I doubt I could find local players, I would not minding doing a La Blue Girl anime style campaign.:embarrass
I had been told that one of the goals of the GSL was to give WotC power to nix books that they don't like and that they are afraid would give DnD a bad name. ... (Green Ronin's Plot and Poison was WAY better than WotC's Drow of the Underdark.)
Agreed about Green Ronin.
but what's to stop WotC from giving their own product a bad name? There are, after all, many kinds of "bad names" out there to be had.
Seriously, I don't mind them making D&D more "T" rated. I just don't like the idea of them nixing third-party books with an M or A rating just because they don't like them. I also don't like the idea of the possibility of them nixing T or E rated books because they don't like them.
BoEF was one of my favorite supplements too. It was handled very maturely and actually had stuff that was useful in a PG-13 campaign.
It was written by Gwen Kestrel and a partner independent of WotC. She left WotC last year with some other staff to make a new company so I'm betting there will be an equivalent in 4th. If not maybe I'll do one. ;)
I haven't seen the full GSL yet, obviously, but I don't think they could say "no adult content" and have it stick. There is a 1st amendment after all and adult speech is protected specifically (within age limits).
There have been actual religions that have had sex based rituals or elements and having a rules set or just fluff to help incorporate them into a setting would be nice. An example would be a fertility ritual for a good harvest. I beleive that was the religion of Asura, though I could be wrong.
There are many, many religions that espoused sexuality as key to worship. Just research ancient religions like the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Hellenic gods and you'll find a lot of this.
I haven't seen the full GSL yet, obviously, but I don't think they could say "no adult content" and have it stick. There is a 1st amendment after all and adult speech is protected specifically (within age limits).
I'm not sure of the legalities, but it makes sense that they could do just that. It is, after all, their product that the license is being issued for. They grant the permission, they can take it away. That seems to be how things work IRL.
There are ways around this, but WotC has proven itself quite litigious in that regard. Remember the big stink about the BoEF? It was perfectly legal and Wizards still got a hair up their butt.The level of adult content in a game really should be up to the players in the game. If Wizards nixes any Adult oriented book I would be very disappointed. They could force any one printing a 4e BoEF to wrap the books in black plastic the way porn mags get wraped… >.> so I hear… :cough: But if they do that I would expect better pictures than the current BoEF.
No kidding. Although personally, I'm happy with any decision Wizards makes that blocks the advent of a second Tome of my Fat Naked Goth Friends.
Insert joke about sex being a daily power for men here.
It's a per year power, only lasts one round and frequently misses.
Am I right ladies *nudge nudge*
Thank you...I'll be at 7 Feathers Casino and Resort all next week if you want to catch my show and folks remember to tip your bartender!
The Book of Erotic Fantasy was produced by a third party publisher. You might want to do a Google search to find out the name of the publisher and write to them and see if they have any plans to publish a Fourth Edition version of the book. Who knows. Maybe they will.
Note: I would do the Google search for you, but I'm at work, and I imagine doing a Google search for the book title might raise some alarm bells in our IT department. :P
Assuming they aren't just playing Counterstrike all day like my IT guys : (
I think it was a great book also. It helped make some succubus/incubus encoutners extremely fun and memorable.
It was written by Gwen Kestrel and a partner independent of WotC. She left WotC last year with some other staff to make a new company so I'm betting there will be an equivalent in 4th. If not maybe I'll do one. ;)
I haven't seen the full GSL yet, obviously, but I don't think they could say "no adult content" and have it stick. There is a 1st amendment after all and adult speech is protected specifically (within age limits).
I don't believe that first amendment rights apply when using someone else's IP.
I don't believe that first amendment rights apply when using someone else's IP.
Depends on what you mean. I have to confess I have seen a lot of lame porn based on all sorts of things from Teen Titans to Star Wars, and more. Its sad that you have to file through so much garbage just to find a decent site.
Don't know what the specifics are of such laws, but if you can find that much rip off junk without even trying I would imagine it wouldn't be that hard to produce such a book.
Depends on what you mean. I have to confess I have seen a lot of lame porn based on all sorts of things from Teen Titans to Star Wars, and more. Its sad that you have to file through so much garbage just to find a decent site.
That's not licensed. When released for free distribution it's said to be "in the public domain." This applies to anything that is released into public for free--TV and radio broadcasts, free Web sites, etc. Once it's made public, folks can do whatever they want with it so long as they don't try and make money off of it.
That's a vastly simplified version of things, though. IRL it's a lot more complex and there are exceptions. In the case of the BoEF they're trying to sell it--which violates copyright law unless licensed with permission by the original owner. So without a license, WotC does have the right to nix something. It's the fine print.
Is it protection or repression?adequate, but not really good
That's what she said.
With all the stuff that was in it, it seems like an advanced fore-play gimic for those one-on-one game sessions with a special player, or DM.
That's not licensed. When released for free distribution it's said to be "in the public domain." This applies to anything that is released into public for free--TV and radio broadcasts, free Web sites, etc. Once it's made public, folks can do whatever they want with it so long as they don't try and make money off of it.
That's a vastly simplified version of things, though. IRL it's a lot more complex and there are exceptions. In the case of the BoEF they're trying to sell it--which violates copyright law unless licensed with permission by the original owner. So without a license, WotC does have the right to nix something. It's the fine print.
Thanks for clarifying. I did wonder how they got away with some of that. I write as a hobby, and should I ever get anything published I would like to think that if anyone wanted to pervert my stuff they would have to get through me.;)
It's a per year power, only lasts one round and frequently misses.
Am I right ladies *nudge nudge*
Thank you...I'll be at 7 Feathers Casino and Resort all next week if you want to catch my show and folks remember to tip your bartender!
Women of course have withhold sex as an at-will power.
Because they regularly proved that the title was a misnomer and Wizards decided to put them in the corner as punishment?
/humor off
Honestly, don't know. But from what I remember seeing there (I occasionally peeked) most of it was very boorish. While the topics were adult topics, they were often very immature. There were some threads worth reading, but they were very sparse.
Conjecture: Possibly with the release of the new edition which currently does not have a "mature" rated book out for it, they decided it was unnecessary? Maybe this is indicative of their intent to *not* release any more "mature" rated books?
"I'm an artist. My campaigns are multi-layered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your 'hobbyist gamer'."
I think a somewhat down to earth look at romance and the erotic is useful at serius moments, as are mature uses of violance and gore seans ment to evok horror,
other times a good leather joke and mortal kombat level extra blood makes for a funny and intresting night.
I think a book that realized that you have to be able to be BOTH adult and childish at the same time in order to fully fit into some games.
am I the only one here who finds people who injoy mature subject matter can injoy it on both the mature and immature level...
I think a somewhat down to earth look at romance and the erotic is useful at serius moments, as are mature uses of violance and gore seans ment to evok horror,
other times a good leather joke and mortal kombat level extra blood makes for a funny and intresting night.
I think a book that realized that you have to be able to be BOTH adult and childish at the same time in order to fully fit into some games.
When I was younger I observed the adults around me and came to the conclusion that adults are really just overgrown children.
I will start
1) no base classes, but maybe a pargon path or two dealing with things like being a Rake, or simalar ideas.
2) New powers for exsiting power sources that include the theame...( enhanced ideas of charms for psi...Marrage and bonds Divine...
3) Magic items like the wedding bands from the scarred lands that let you know when your wife/husband were indandger
4) Tougn in cheek rules for suduction and foreplay...things that can help the story keep going but not bog the game down....(wwe need the quit "if there are any girls there I want to do them")
5) Seriuse looks at risks of pregnancy, cross breeding, and VD. (magical birthcontrol FTW
6) Adult takes and expansions on succubus and Nymph type monsters, so you can have that adult feel
For GM's, a section on how to use eroticism in a campaign and do it well, not cheesy or offensive. This could also include some world building aspects such as building a culture, religion, or social structure that has a higher degree of sexuality than our own.
Blue, you've earned a 
.I know that Gwen and Duncan were trying not to offend anybody with the original BoEF, but that's the whole problem. You can't avoid offending everyone. Someone, somewhere is going to jump on something and make it an issue when it wasn't one to begin with. Tipper Gore tried to make D&D out to be a Satanic practice; in hindsight I think she's even more insane than Al.
So if someone does print a 4e BoEF, don't be afraid to be frank and even a little graphic where appropriate. Those of us buying it are not children (or shouldn't be). We understand that, as adult content, there may be things we won't like. That's why it's called "adult content." It's meant for people who are mature enough to handle it. If you aren't, then just don't buy it. Get it?
And please, PLEASE include more fluff--especially the stuff Blue and GMforPowerGamer mentioned. Rules are okay, but ideas are better.
And please, PLEASE include more fluff--especially the stuff Blue and GMforPowerGamer mentioned. Rules are okay, but ideas are better.
that shouldbe our battle cry for mostly this, but even a few other books...
Rules are okay, but ideas are better
so I am siging that
I'm not trying to be a butt-kisser here, but Book of Erotic Fantasy was one of my favorite D&D books ever. It was surprisingly mature and genuinely useful.
Is there going to be a 4th edition update? Or equivalent? Anybody heard anything?
Why bother? Anyone capable of including sex and eroticism in a game in a mature manner doesn't need a book to tell them how to do it, and anyone who does need a book to tell them how to do it is incapable of including sex and eroticism in a game in a mature manner
Insert joke about sex being a daily power for men here.
Daily? How sad for him…and for her, come to think of it.
I heard they got banned. The only book that got the OGL retracted. But again, only a rumor.
It'll be on the intarwebs at least. Can't stop the intarwebs.
The OGL was not retracted on any book, ever.
The BoEF was reprinted and re-released about a year ago. I recall seeing it in a gametrade, or possibly the alliance catalog shortly before I moved away from my FLGS job.
In one of the articles on this site regarding the 4e GSL, it was mentioned that the quality/standards clause of the OGL was only invoked ONCE and that the book in question was later released after some fixes. I don't care to search for a link confirming this story right now, so if someone doesn't find it and post it here, maybe I will in a day or two.
Why bother? Anyone capable of including sex and eroticism in a game in a mature manner doesn't need a book to tell them how to do it, and anyone who does need a book to tell them how to do it is incapable of including sex and eroticism in a game in a mature manner
becuse sometimes people who are adult are not mature, and want immature things with adult theams, but I guess that is badwrongfun...
Also some mature people need some help with fitting it into games, and walking a line to not make it just sex jokes and ohhh booobs. But I guess that is badwrongfun...:rolleye2:
By your logic, there is no need for books at all past the main three, becuse if you are ______ enough for ______ you don't need a book...
I want a book that talks about adult theames, both mature and immature in the concept of D&D, I don't want someone to run a skill challange to get laid, but someone might. I think this could lead to a rather good open and fun game.
There was a pic in book of exulted deads that I set a whole story arch around. The pic is of two succubus in love and A paliden standing over them.
I created a concept of a 1/2 fiend LE black guard and his new fiance a Succubus trying to just settle down and be happy, but another succubus (The fiance's sister) wanted to stop this nd caused problme, and framed the couple...3 times in the last game of the arc one of my players (playing a monk) stoped mid sentence stareing at the succubus. It was a little childish but it was fun, and most of the week after the arc had people makeing jokes about buying wands of restoration as wedding presents...
It's not necessarily a badwrongfun topic, but the problem with the BoEF was that it was, to put it bluntly, terribly written and "illustrated" with terrible Photoshops. It didn't even walk down well-tread lines of biological inquiry explored by countless unsettling hentai pics and amateur erotic fiction. Sex can be handled well in damn near any medium, but, as said by Darren MacLennan, it's a whole 'nother thing trying to talk about weird fantasy sex out loud with your friends around the table. Or even in the chat room.
I wouldn't try it myself, at least explicitly, because there's, at least for me, a mutually exclusive mind set between roleplaying as in Dungeons and Dragons and roleplaying as in seedy AOL chatrooms with complex l33tsp34k titles to get around the name filters.
EDIT: Simultaneously, it'd be neat to know, for instance, hideously derogatory Orc swear words, or dwarven standards of beauty, or how dragonborn handle pregnancy, or elvish courtship, or why elves find humans irresistible in the sack (I have my musings on the matter). These kinds of things are fun to know and can enhance a setting or roleplaying without resorting to describing all manner of implements going all manner of other places. I can see an Erotic Fantasy supplement for that sort of thing.
I think you missed out on what the term "badwrongfun" means, Commissar.
You notice that I didn't run the words together. That was deliberate. I'm actually quite quick at picking up on Newspeak.
You notice that I didn't run the words together. That was deliberate. I'm actually quite quick at picking up on Newspeak.
The words are meant to run together, like "funderful" or "apocalaughter." It's actually an ironic term referring to people who think that certain kinds of enjoyment are strictly werboten at the gaming table, no excuses. Saying something is "badwrongfun" is ironic. Saying something is "bad, wrong fun and not a reasonable thing to do"...
The words are meant to run together, like "funderful" or "apocalaughter." It's actually an ironic term referring to people who think that certain kinds of enjoyment are strictly werboten at the gaming table, no excuses. Saying something is "badwrongfun" is ironic. Saying something is "bad, wrong fun and not a reasonable thing to do"...
Right... I'm saying I know that. That's why I called the term badwrongfun "Newspeak".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak
Words like "badwrongfun" tend to become semantically jejune because, rather than being a thoughtful response, they're sort of a social-functional reflex. That's like Newspeak... a language that can be used without conscious thought.
Right... I'm saying I know that. That's why I called the term badwrongfun "Newspeak".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak
Words like "badwrongfun" tend to become semantically jejune because, rather than being a thoughtful response, they're sort of a social-functional reflex. That's like Newspeak... a language that can be used without conscious thought.
Game, set and match.
Not grasping the "Bad", by itself anyway. Just wanted to know what makes it so bad?
That would be America's lingering Victorian attitudes (not Puritan; even they were more open about sex than we are). Americans still have the attitude of "violence = good; sex = bad." Not "good" as in good for you, but more as in socially acceptable--especially for children.
That would be America's lingering Victorian attitudes (not Puritan; even they were more open about sex than we are). Americans still have the attitude of "violence = good; sex = bad." Not "good" as in good for you, but more as in socially acceptable--especially for children.
Oh, that old saw! "If you're not a proponent of Lust, it must be because you're afraid of sex." Nope.
Sex is a wonderful, beautiful thing. I hope that people will frequently have it... privately, with their spouses and in an act of unreserved affection and openness to life.
The BoEF isn't a book that glorifies sex. It's a book that glorifies lust, which is an attack upon sex and ultimately upon human dignity. Lust is a sorry excuse for sex for those who cannot confront and accept their own human sexuality.
Here's hoping that the D&D brand stays as far away from "Hustler D20" as possible.
Does this mean other people should force their views on others? No, as you said I think it is respectful of others to keep certain things private. Does this mean I think people should give in to unrestrained lust? No, as with all things they must be taken in moderation. Too much of anything is bad.
Back on topic, There are other things I would like to see in BoEF than just just porn, or as you put it, D20 Hustler.
I know you are alll sitting there like
In star trek noone ever accused them of being Porn, (yes kirk was lustful), but lets list some things we know, Vulcan mating rituals, Klingon mateing rituals, How Cardasians mate, the fact that humans can reproduce with above three.
Now back to D&D,
elves don't sleep, they meditate, so common sense says that they don't need beds. So laying down is not a natural state for them. So beds were probly not made intill they interacted with humans. So how is there mateing rituels???((((now for the immature side to come out: "So do humans sometimes do it Elf stlye?)))))
The BoEF isn't a book that glorifies sex. It's a book that glorifies lust, which is an attack upon sex and ultimately upon human dignity. Lust is a sorry excuse for sex for those who cannot confront and accept their own human sexuality.
Here's hoping that the D&D brand stays as far away from "Hustler D20" as possible.
I think you never made it past the pictures becuse some of the book was about love and all the fairy tale one true love stuff, I will admite part of it was "Hustler D20", and as someone put it earlier it is part "My goth friends photoshoped" but all three have there place. The virgin riding the unicorn, or the Brothel with twin elvin school girls, weird bondage stuff, wedding ciramonies, Religus views on Sex and the like.
here are some rated PG order of the stick comics that deal with these issues:
Half orc love
Thor understands these things
so may I suggest that if you really feel strongly about love you post here what you do and don't want to see, maybe the next BoEF will be more of what the comunity wants
Ok, this thought came to me to, STAR TREK..
I know you are alll sitting there like
In star trek noone ever accused them of being Porn, (yes kirk was lustful), but lets list some things we know, Vulcan mating rituals, Klingon mateing rituals, How Cardasians mate, the fact that humans can reproduce with above three.
Now back to D&D,
((((now for the immature side to come out: "So do humans sometimes do it Elf stlye?)))))
"Khaaaaaaaaan!" Sorry, had to get it out.:D
When Enterprise aired their was alot of fuss about the sexuality in the series. When I went back and looked at TOS I found the arguments almost laughable. We have the Pon'Far episode, Kirk has a hard time keeping his uniform in one piece many times(watch out ladies), and then there are all the scantily clad female guest stars.
Anyway, back to D&D.
You have to wonder about Orcs as well. I figured it would be more like Klingon style.
When asked why, the DM at the time frequently said
"Between good and evil - there is love" in the cheesyest voice possible
Lots more political intrigue, villains that are capable of truly evil deeds, and of course human sexuality.
The original book had a lot of mechanics. It was pretty entertaining and good for a laugh. I imagine that is how it was meant. It also had stuff in in like the %chance of producing offspring and fantasy birth control and sexual magic items and sex spells. I don't recall it being all that "mature" though.
I got royally screwed 'cause of that. A half-elf character had sex with a human character and is currently pregnant with a dryad. WTF, mate?
Outside of a few dice rolls, sex has never really played any role at all in any game I've played. Any little detail I get into with mechanics has ended up as pure flavor: "Okay, this goddess of desire can do this and this and this while doing a handstand.. but that doesn't mean she can't still kill you with her infinite array of magic. So, go ahead and look, but don't stare." Adding the extra detail was fun, I admit, but was it necessary? Highly doubtful.
in one session, as a throw-away joke, we had it "discovered" that the party mage and party paladin had got drunk and bumped uglies the night before
anyway, later that session, the paladin died (a Hydra got criticals with two heads on him, the logical conclusion being he was ripped in half). I looked at the player of the mage, gave a half smile, the player nodded, and a pregnancy was started - no rules, no rolls, but it was agreed by all it was VERY dramatically appropreate
I would LOVE a good quality WOTC version, 3rd party is ok but WOTC would make sure it was balanced and hold it to the same standard as the rest- not to mention they could make sure it was PG-13 at least.
It's just nice to have some of the things like rules for seduction and pregnancy, or w.e.
First off, just because you don't want it in your campaign doesn't make it useless to everyone. I can think of several pages from various core books I have no need for (anything to do with halflings...I don't play them. I don't know anyone who plays them, for example).
If someone wants the book for their own reasons, let's not ASK WotC to leave them hanging. Certainly, I have noticed a trend over the last decade or so in my "fantasy and science fiction" section of the bookstore where we have been invaded by loosely disguised 'bodice-rippers,' often with a token vampire who is so bleedin' whimpy that you could hold him at bay with a Chuck Norris DVD in lieu of a holy symbol (some are so whimpy you could make do with a Charlie Brown DVD instead). Obviously, some people pretty close to gamers are interested in the material.
Unless you are playing in MY campaign, you have no idea what I might want from that book. Yes, I could make it all up on the fly. I might not have the time or desire to do so. I might not be interested in becoming an expert on ancient fertility rituals, and instead might want something 'quick and dirty,' if you'll pardon the pun.
Hanali Celanil is listed as the elfin goddess of 'love, sex, and beauty.' That alone implies people are actually reproducing (not respawning at their bind point). I decided she has an evil twin sister in charge of 'sex, jealousy, manipulation, betrayal etc ... everything that goes wrong in a relationship. A priestess of hers was able to create al kinds of intrigue and havoc by staying true to her faith, and great fun was had by all.
EVERYTHING in fantasy that is bold enough to deal with sex indicates it has a strong connection to magic. In a world layered in magic, people are bound to have tried to use magic to make sex better (or possible....Uther Pendragon ring any bells?), or sex to make magic better (or even lie about it to get what they want).
Now there are those who just want to play dungeon crawls. They only need hit dice, ac, hit points, saving throws, and damage. The rest is just fluff to them. Should we cut the game down to that. After all, you're creative enough to make up the rest, right?
Whether or not THIS book is any good or not (and I have seen some FRIGHTENINGLY lame passages in official books), is another matter. I would like to see a USEFUL book dealing with these matters, as well as providing ideas for incorporation into campaigns. You never know when you'll be needing inspiration.
And sometimes....well say you are DMing among others, a friend and his wife and said wife decides she needs to take an NPC paladin home with her (long story). Said paladin would be reluctant (casual sex being chaotic), but said wife is playing a sorceress with a 17 charisma (and that is the highest player stat in the campaign). I AIN'T role playing THAT with another man's wife. I'll take the die roll, thank you very, very much. Yes, I could make it all up. Far better to have it in print in a book somewhere.
And sometimes....well say you are DMing among others, a friend and his wife and said wife decides she needs to take an NPC paladin home with her (long story). Said paladin would be reluctant (casual sex being chaotic), but said wife is playing a sorceress with a 17 charisma (and that is the highest player stat in the campaign). I AIN'T role playing THAT with another man's wife. I'll take the die roll, thank you very, very much. Yes, I could make it all up. Far better to have it in print in a book somewhere.
Good example
The book had things like that but it was a little weird, like you used your 'perform(sexual techniques)' skill to seduce. Seems like it goes more under diplomacy or bluff, or another skill... Things like that bothered me, and I'd like to see WoTC do one that was more... well-thought-out and went with the other books as far as quality and rulings on things. Maybe more on love and marriage and make the sex less of the focus, as well. (Not to say it should be as PG as the other books, just a bit tamer to make it less abrasive and weird to some people)
The book had things like that but it was a little weird, like you used your 'perform(sexual techniques)' skill to seduce. Seems like it goes more under diplomacy or bluff, or another skill...
Actually that was discussed in "new uses for old skills." Bluff was the skill for seduction.
The BoEF was about sex--its existence, its place in society, and its effects on people--and how it could influence the mechanics (magic, feats, items) and role-playing. Love and marriage warrant a mention, yes. But since each race views love and marriage differently it makes more sense to keep discussions on such to books dealing with said races (the Races of books, for example). Elves and dwarves may be constant allies, but socially the two are worlds apart in regards to views on marriage.
What is wrong with you people?
You want eroticism in a hobby game? Why could you possibly want that? It's a board game where you fight trolls and other mythical creatures, if you want eroticism, why not go and, I don't know, find a sexual parter/group/whatever floats your boat. I know that whole "what is wrong with you" sounds harsh, but for heaven's sake, I don't think Gary Gygax ever intended the game to be an erotic game.
Call me a prude or whatever you feel like labelling me as, but you need to take a step back and look at trying to inject 'adult themes' into a boardgame about Elves and Orcs.
Sorry if it came off harsh,
Drack
lot's of people, at least here in the UK, run it as a story-based game. entire sessions can run without a single combat, or with just "Narative combat". If your game includes, for example, a lot of time spent in the royal court, or in a decadent city, or whatever, romance and sexual politics are likely to be a big feature. Even in a more combat based game, you may get cults, for example, of Divine virgins, or Sacred Prostitudes of Ishtar. Or tantric wizards plotting world domination. Crowley (regardless of what you think of him) is possibly one of the real-world templates on whom the classic evil wizard is based, and was possibly one of the most sexual figures of his day and age.
There are plenty of other fantasy classic characters.
If magic existed at the D&D level, there would be plenty of spells that existed for the "big three" intents of Money, Health and Nookie - probably far more, by order of magnitude, than blasting spells. low-charisma wizards everywhere would reaserch spells to help them get some, creating all kinds of moral dilema's arround their use (see she-Hulk Volume 2, issue 6, for an example of this issue in a fictional context)
Really? No one else is going to say it? No one else at all? Alright.
What is wrong with you people?
You want eroticism in a hobby game? Why could you possibly want that? It's a board game where you fight trolls and other mythical creatures, if you want eroticism, why not go and, I don't know, find a sexual parter/group/whatever floats your boat. I know that whole "what is wrong with you" sounds harsh, but for heaven's sake, I don't think Gary Gygax ever intended the game to be an erotic game.
Call me a prude or whatever you feel like labelling me as, but you need to take a step back and look at trying to inject 'adult themes' into a boardgame about Elves and Orcs.
Sorry if it came off harsh,
Drack
Who says there's anything wrong with us. I'm perfectly fine thank you.
I remember hearing once that there is no right a wrong way to play an RPG. You just happen to like a different style. Thats perfectly fine. I don't consider you a Prude, I don't beleive in labelling others, except as human beings.
This is something I have thought long and hard about. I could not have come to my descision otherwise.
Really? No one else is going to say it? No one else at all? Alright.
What is wrong with you people?
You want eroticism in a hobby game? Why could you possibly want that? It's a board game where you fight trolls and other mythical creatures, if you want eroticism, why not go and, I don't know, find a sexual parter/group/whatever floats your boat. I know that whole "what is wrong with you" sounds harsh, but for heaven's sake, I don't think Gary Gygax ever intended the game to be an erotic game.
Call me a prude or whatever you feel like labelling me as, but you need to take a step back and look at trying to inject 'adult themes' into a boardgame about Elves and Orcs.
Sorry if it came off harsh,
Drack
I'm probably the exception but most of my Dnd playtime is in a one on one game with my fiancee. We both greatly enjoyed the BoeF, even though it was pretty cheesy.
-
--Concerning the BoEF its self, the combination of body-art & photoshop in their photos was consistantly outstanding. Tantra & Khundalini were portrayed very well. The prestige class for the unicorn riders was done very well. Slots for piercings & the rings that went where was well done as well as humorous. I'll grant you that the feats were inconsistant. They were either too powerful (such as the ones that granted +2 to a statistic after sex, stackable to a max of +6), or two weak (such as the one for men that stated that their equipment was larger than the equipment of other men their size category). I liked most of the spells. I thought clever players could make great use of this spell or that (such as the Touch-Me-Not spell). It wasn't farce & yet didn't take its self too seriously. I own most of the 3.5E Green Ronin supplements (because I like them a lot) & I thought BoEF was a better product. I was very disappointed when Valar went under and didn't produce anything more.
D&D provides an environment for characters to interact. However, I don't think many of us provide detailed descriptions of amorous activities. I would feel uncomfortable being in a game where such was described. Far better to be simply end a scene with the characters retiring to a room, and closing a door.
Perhaps you disagree with me. That's fine. Talk to your players/DM. To make everyone enjoy the game, establish clear boundaries and stick to them. If your players want to play an extreme hentai game, and everyone's cool about it, so what?
In the game I'm playing, we did have a situtation in our Eberron game where a halfling had an unusual Siberys mark. She was kidnapped by the Hobgoblin King in Darguun, who wanted his descendants to be Dragonmarked. (Apparently, he had some wizards or something.)
I can see some rules on pregnancy, interspecies relationships, magic items and spells. However, I just don't see new character classes (base or prestige). You can play it as a variant of Bard, or an Enchanter, or simply a person with high skills in Bluff and Diplomacy. A class primarily focused on sexuality seems overly narrow to me. Most of the focus of the D&D game is about gaining abilities to be effective in combat situations - it doesn't fit in well with the other rules. Play a different game if relationships and liasions are a major theme.
...blocks the advent of a second Tome of my Fat Naked Goth Friends...
Oh, come on… Tome of my Fat Naked Goth Friends is one of the best third party books ever!
There are several issues involved in a 4E BoEF, including; will of the writers and publishers, desire of the audience and licensing status of 4E rules. The furor over the book, both pro and con, seemed to be something of a tempest in a tea-pot – how many people get any actual use out of the book? And the Valar Project never released anything else, so how well did it even sell?
As for humor, I’ve sat in college biology and antimony classes where adults and would-be professionals giggle over even the most academic use of terms like “Medical term for male reproductive organ” and “Medical term for female reproductive organ.” Some element of the humorous, and even the silly, seem inevitable when sex is involved.
Personally, the idea of such things doesn't disturb me. The two things that competed for "most disturbing" in that setting was the fact that House Haimon (The Deathly, a House obsessed with necromancy and notorious for its unemotional nature) has a large population of malcubi, while House Riethii (The Seducers) has a large population of beasts... which are demons that appear as A: humans with traits/body parts from 1+ animals, or conglomerations of multiple animal parts arranged into a humanoid body-structure.
Anyway, to get back on topic, I think the idea of a 4E BoEF, in terms of a book that actually includes suggested by Blue_Tiger and GMforPowerGamer, would be a very unique and useful idea.
like aid for plots with adult violence (there is more violence in evil-done balckmail, or humiliation than there is in a slaughter)
I feel like the 4e tools are actually better for sexual/mature content giving healing surges a wider point of vew adding emodional fatigue to the hp damage
so you could pull an emotional injury sistem (like when you are betrayed it hurs deeper than a blade) using healing surges to overcome those ( so that it compensates the extra sources of damage
I can see an image of the "friend" betraying the hero killing his wife and the hero falls to the ground beeing more wounded by betrayal and loss than he had ever been by "hits"
expand this to more concepts and you can pull a nice sistem adapted for more mature "demands" or "needs"
atm with 3.5 u could go with Perform + Profession....well even Craft could have some uses....not to mention Planar binding and magical circles and others wiz's tools....
Insert joke about sex being a daily power for men here.
Heck, I'd say it's an ecounter-power. A paragon-tier feat would allow it to become an at-will power.
And each month that the male goes without using it they have to make a will save at -1 per month when presented with an opportunity to get laid, no matter how wrong it may be (ugly bar wench, succubus, enchantment sorceress that needs a certain, helpless state to perform an enthralling ritual).
If someone does'nt like it:-
A WORD TO THE WISE.............DON'T BUY IT!!!!!!!!
Let me first applaud the posters on this thread. You have dealt with mature subjects in a mature and thoughtful fashion. More importantly you have done this ON A D&D FORUM.
Bravo Posters all. I tip my hat to all of you. Even Commisaar. Well all of you except the poster who thinks there is something wrong with the rest of you.
Eroticism in gaming should be anathema? Then my dear poster i suggest you stay far far away from all products made by White wolf and that you NEVER venture into a LARP game played with that companies rules. Vampire the masquerade has lots of erotic overtones. Strangely in the many years I played activly in both troupe games and the larger Global chronical run by White Wolf this was handled for the most part in a very mature manner. Admittedly only people over the ages of 18 were allowed to join.
I would ask if the person who accuses us all of deviance if they have ever read any fantasy fiction? I do believe in several instances I can think of that Sex happens. Not just between properly wedded male and female partners either (sorry Comissar). The Legend of King Arthur springs to mind.
I play RPGs not just to dungeon dive and hack and slash. In fact this is the least reason I play. I play to immerse myself in a fluid active storyline that I can roleplay a character in. I want to be part of as realistic a story as possible. I say realistic while taking into account the a priori assumtions of the setting (ie: magic works, dragons are real, I am actually taller than 5'5" and can manage heroic feats of strength) So YES by god I like to have aspects of Love, sex, and even lust enter into my games from time to time as appropriate TO THE STORY.
thats my two coppers worth.
Again Bravo to the thread.
Cheers!
The unicorn riders were also a cool idea.
The way I see it, in order for adults to remain interested in the game, there have to be adult elements. It can't all just be fun hack 'n slash or slapstick (though those can be great fun also). And by adult elements, I don't mean porn, necessarily. I mean reflections of the reality that adults live in. Probably some sex, and the occasional childbirth -- in fact, those can be really big, important parts of daily life! For adventurers, sometimes, also.
Of course, nothing should ever go into a game that especially offends any of the people actually in it at the moment. I mean, you still gotta be polite. And of course, some groups are more adult than others.
These were all topics brought up in the book, which was another reason I liked it.
One book devoted to the concept of adult themes in a D&D game, I don't think is too many.
I specifically liked the sort of tantric monk class. I don't remember the name of it all of a sudden. And I don't have the book with me. Hate when that happens.
That'd be the kundalini.
Once again going Star trek there was an episode in season one where a man had multi brides, and wanted a crew member to become the next one, the ep ended with it being revealed that woman could have multi husbands as well, so it was a very open civilatiation, and think about how wacky that could get.
Involving the entire party, as WotC made a brave attempt at for 4E with certain one-person-only aspects of 3E. I'm curious and hopeful as to how that will turn out.
1. for BoEF/ Adult Mature Book of Fantasy id like to see a realistic tool
like aid for plots with adult violence (there is more violence in evil-done balckmail, or humiliation than there is in a slaughter)
2. [mechanics suggestions]
1. Do you really need that? I've done a pretty adult game, and the mere mention of torture, **** or mass-murder really managed to touch 5 players who were your average beer drinking slackers with often questionable morals.
Going further than saying: "When you open the doors to the town hall, you see corpses of the villagers. Tens, maybe even a hundred have been dumped and stacked in the room.", would make me feel very uncomfortable as DM or player, and the above already did. **** is even stronger. I really would not want to go into any more detail than that when running an 'adult game'.
This is pure DM story telling not in need of any rules support that might force the group to go into more detail than they want to.
2. Well... no. Too short term and wrong effect. I've seen the basis of a system that had rules for emotions (anger, fear, love). Emotions could sometimes dictate your action and could provide small bonusses, managing them well would make you more reliable and sometimes even boost you. for example: you could gain action points from having high love for someone if you spent those points to protect them, this would however reduce your love for that person requiring time investments to improve. It was a nice idea, certainly, but I have to say that even that sucked. We're playing adventurers, not 'Shakespeare'. Even worse, all this stuff is time for 1 player, the others have to wait while the DM does this... possibly while outgroced.
Also, depth is nice... just not ALL the time, maybe for two sessions... then I want to face an EL partylevel+4 encounter possibly with some nice EL -2 kobold slaughter in between; all the while not thinking any one thought about NPC love relations. The good part about D&D is that the world is very forgiving, you can just do what you like and you can say "oh eh, last 3 sessions I did feed the prisoner and I did give attention to the girl we rescued", and the DM will generally say "sure" quite happy with how you did it as well.
The way I see it, in order for adults to remain interested in the game, there have to be adult elements.
I disagree. We get enough of this stuff 'maturity' thrown at us all the time and what is it other than a 'real life simulator' when it's a game or a 'real life documentary' if it's TV or something.
I play D&D because I want to be a hero, because I want a gaming challenge (beating a EL +4 encounter), to try things or roleplay a certain character or personality.
Anyway, IMO t'was a crap book, and I hope it doesn't get reprinted. :P
If you're having troubles with your girl, you don't need to play 4th E. 3.5 is equally fine ;)
Or just improvise.
A new BoEF would probably be a fluff book with few new mechanics (unlike the first). Ideas on how monsters, fantasy races, and societies in the D&D world view sex, sexuality, and the ways its used. Sex is an alternative to combat and stealth. If you can't think of ways to use it, then a book of new ideas would be useful. We don't whine and complain when a new Monster Manual comes out with new ideas for monsters and new ways to use old ones, do we? Or anything else that offers new ideas for existing stuff?
nasty
The thought of sitting at a table with my friends and roleplaying a sex scene with fantasy powers is simultaneously hilarious and disgusting. I hope this book never gets made. Even geeks need standards.
nasty
This^
Never mind replying. None of us will change the others' minds.
The thought of sitting at a table with my friends and roleplaying a sex scene with fantasy powers is simultaneously hilarious and disgusting. I hope this book never gets made. Even geeks need Standards.
nasty
Ok, well I feel almost the exact oppasite. I don't want to do that every week, heck 99% of the time I want the game to fade to black when they hit the bed room, but what about inbetween the start of the scean and that moment... well that could be fun. How about we start with some example Skill challanges to get there... how about some ideas on what the atmosphear is...
Book Of Repressed Deviance maybe. I am no prude but i think tarded books like BOEF help reinforce negative stereotypes leveled at the gaming population. Besides being hideously stupid in concept and really useless at the table.
What negative sterotypes? Would you rather if the whole game was "cool" or if it had something for everyone? Then again I haven't worried about "cool" in atleast 10 years...
1. Do you really need that? I've done a pretty adult game, and the mere mention of torture, **** or mass-murder really managed to touch 5 players who were your average beer drinking slackers with often questionable morals.
Going further than saying: "When you open the doors to the town hall, you see corpses of the villagers. Tens, maybe even a hundred have been dumped and stacked in the room.", would make me feel very uncomfortable as DM or player, and the above already did. **** is even stronger. I really would not want to go into any more detail than that when running an 'adult game'.
This is pure DM story telling not in need of any rules support that might force the group to go into more detail than they want to.
Ok, so how do you describe dead bodies? I have had some people dislike what in 3.5 we refered to as MA games, from BoED, to BoVD, and the BoEF. I know how far people are willing to go, but hey the best part is, my game could be G rated or XXX rated, and anything in between. So can yours, lets not forget we make the games, we just want some resources for our PG 13 and R rated games
2. Well... no. Too short term and wrong effect. I've seen the basis of a system that had rules for emotions (anger, fear, love). Emotions could sometimes dictate your action and could provide small bonusses, managing them well would make you more reliable and sometimes even boost you. for example: you could gain action points from having high love for someone if you spent those points to protect them, this would however reduce your love for that person requiring time investments to improve. It was a nice idea, certainly, but I have to say that even that sucked. We're playing adventurers, not 'Shakespeare'. Even worse, all this stuff is time for 1 player, the others have to wait while the DM does this... possibly while outgroced.
ok, what about hunting a jack the ripper like villian? or worse ( wont go into details) What if your human rogue 3 has a friend who is a lady of the night? or is that Badwrongfun again? Why can't being mad give bonuses (Rage did in 3.5) how about love... it is evil accourding to G. Lucus and star wars I-III
so you could pull an emotional injury sistem (like when you are betrayed it hurs deeper than a blade) using healing surges to overcome those ( so that it compensates the extra sources of damage
I hope the ravenloft fear/horror/maddness is based on this thought... maybe "traps" that do psi damage
Dwarf weddings
Ok, so how do you describe dead bodies? I have had some people dislike what in 3.5 we refered to as MA games, from BoED, to BoVD, and the BoEF.
I said no more than that, off course they did ask for the cause of death to which I replied "bladed weapons...". No need for more detail, they were clearly impressed by this in a macabre way.
ok, what about hunting a jack the ripper like villian? or worse ( wont go into details) What if your human rogue 3 has a friend who is a lady of the night? or is that Badwrongfun again? Why can't being mad give bonuses (Rage did in 3.5) how about love... it is evil accourding to G. Lucus and star wars I-III
Love provides your characters motivation to keep digging and take risks, I don't see why it has to give you +2 to attack and damage for the adventure to work.
Why would you need details about what has been done other than 'raped and mutilated'.
I hope the ravenloft fear/horror/maddness is based on this thought... maybe "traps" that do psi damage
If I'd include mature content in an adventure I'd do something better than psi damage or burn a healing surge. Nightmares, horror, misrecognising people - if it was a site in an adventure I'd run it on the fly, if it was an adventure I'd probably make a quick & easy sanity system I keep hidden behind my screen. I've did a cthulhu game where I managed to do that, and I can do it in D&D as well, provided I let myself deviate from the rules a bit (which is hard for me as LN DM).
I know how far people are willing to go, but hey the best part is, my game could be G rated or XXX rated, and anything in between. So can yours, lets not forget we make the games, we just want some resources for our PG 13 and R rated games
I'm sorry you feel that way. But remember we're all different. Some people might actually like doing those things. I personally have no problem with it and neither do many of my friends--men and women alike. Again I reiterate: if you don't like it, don't use it. Ignore it. Pretend it doesn't exist. Just disassociate yourself from it completely and avoid it when possible. That's how it's done IRL.
Offcourse, you should be able to get those books if you want. I'm just arguing however that they are qualitive quite poor and a bit superfluous.
A most interesting point I wish to raise:
The Book of Vile Darkness actually has a small torture section but beyond some interesting mechanics for that never occuring situation where player characters are captured and the DM is willing to risk killing them.
I don't recall any part of the Book of Erotic Fantasy that provides the aforementioned extra details for ****, sex, or mass-murder. It only provides pointless stamina rules and semi-pointless pregnancy rules, it's not that hard to conceive those yourself and you may even prefer that the plot determines whether pregnancy occurs rather than a die roll.
So really tell me, what part of the BoEF was actually useful in the way you just mentioned?
also, to reply to a previous posting, one mans pervert is anothers ideal party-guest
some of us have our boundries drawn in different places!
So really tell me, what part of the BoEF was actually useful in the way you just mentioned?
The adventure hooks were pretty good, the magic spells had a lot of uses outside of sexual situations, the new gods were okay and a breath of fresh air, and a few of the PrC's were good fodder for some home-brewed versions. Yes, most of it was pretty bad. I think they were under a serious time crunch thanks to the OGL being rewritten to ban their very material, though. I'm not sure. It does have that "rushed" and "unfinished" feel to it.
I also can't think of another game marketed towards children that has such a slimy product produced for it. Wizards would probably prefer that the first one was never made and i hope they take steps to see that another one never is.
Adult oriented themes and whatnot are the last thing i am looking for in a fantasy game. But if the majority of ones sexual life is derived from fantasy, i could see how such a product might be desirable. This product is another reason why i would never allow one of my children near a game store by themselves...creepy my friends, very creepy.
And besides it sounds like a joke and if anyone looked at my huge collection of D&D paraphenalia and thought i was a loserhow much more so were they to see something like the BOEF. Which ,hey different strokesfor different folks...but it isn't quality enough to grace my shelf.
So really tell me, what part of the BoEF was actually useful in the way you just mentioned?
The adventure hooks were pretty good, the magic spells had a lot of uses outside of sexual situations, the new gods were okay and a breath of fresh air, and a few of the PrC's were good fodder for some home-brewed versions.
That's not useful in the way 'you' just mentioned, it's not really you but if you answer the man's question then answer it.
Adventure hooks can be a useful part of a book but without it you can do just as well, magic spell uses outside sexual situations is precisely what I'm not asking for, the gods and PrC's can be something good but still is not what this book was claimed to contain. It was claimed it contained content for people who wanted more detail in their adult game, beyond the mere mention of **** or romance.
I'm getting the idea you are defending what you wish the book had been and not what the book actually is. The book is useless, it completely missed the point in the sense that it did not provide us with what we looked for in such a book... but this being a thread about a 4th Edition Book of Erotic Fantasy you defend what the book should have been because a new book would be a second chance at an adult themed eroticism book that DOES provide you with the details you want?
If that's the case I totally agree.
Totally agree that the book would be good for those interested, I probably still wouldn't buy it for reasons I mentioned in my first post in this thread.
Further adressing the book itself 'rushed' or 'incomplete' is not what I'd say. I'd say the writers either thought "we can fill a book with crap and have people buy it because it's the only hope they have for a book like this", or they just didn't have the balls to actually do what they had to. A most painful and important one would be a 2+ page subchapter on ****, describing how it starts, what you can do to **** or while being raped, and the (mental) after effects of ****. They'd need to go deep into 'pervert territory' and describe those situations and think carefully about how they'd need to be implemented in the game; and thinking for days and writing many pages about **** in a book takes guts to do - for obvious reasons.
For more examples, maybe children, nice ways to divide the party using mechanics with a seducing woman. The DM does not want to adjucate these situations also because he doesn't know how to do it fair, so put it in the book and he's happy.
However, they only provided lots of fluff we could just as well do without because it doesn't really concern the average adventurer. Either it's irrelevant or it's beyond their scope: the average adventurer's life expectancy is well below 9 months for instance... so what is the point in a table with pregnancy durations and pregnancy at all.
Our best hope is if WotC makes the next BoEF. I bought the 'Seafarers Handbook' and it sucked bigtime, later WotC was so kind to bring out 'Stormwrack' and now I did have good rules for adventure at sea. If WotC would make BoEF 2 you can be sure they put in stuff that matters and is somehow relevant to the game.
I'm getting the idea you are defending what you wish that the book had been and not what the book actually is. The book is useless, it completely missed the point in the sense that it did not provide us with what we looked for in such a book... but this being a thread about a 4th Edition Book of Erotic Fantasy you defend what the book should have been because a new book would be a second chance at an adult themed eroticism book that DOES provide you with the details you want?
If that's the case I totally agree.
now you have it...
I don't use more then 1/2 that book, butt I support making a new BETTER Boef, heck I want a better name too. I don't want the good and the bad, I only want the good, and I want it to get better, and have MORE good. now if you would like, howabout you sit down and help us flesh out what would be an awsome book for most of us, not a nich within a nitch.
I now realize what I want... I want a book like the 3.5 book Heros of Horror. I want Heros of Lust (yes bad name still). I want a well thought out adult theam suplment who is with me?
They are marketing this game to the Power Ranger and Pokemon crowd. Not the three people who would buy the Loser's Guide To Sexual Simulation.
I now realize what I want... I want a book like the 3.5 book Heros of Horror. I want Heros of Lust (yes bad name still). I want a well thought out adult theam suplment who is with me?
I'd suggest a wiki-to-pdf project. The first step is a wiki that allows people to suggest rules, it's really cool that people can anonymously add things so the painful subjects will be done as well.
Then you'd need a team of a rules design pragmatist and a gameplay design pragmatist gathering and rewriting articles in new versions of the book.
And if you chose really good pragmatists then you have a possibly worthwhile book. This book you offer to download for free while asking downloaders at least ten times for donation, and then people download it for free and print it at the local copy shop and there you have your book.
You may even manage to get free photography illustrations for it if the project takes off.
It would be fun and interesting to do if you can get the people and small funds for it...
I'm getting the idea you are defending what you wish the book had been and not what the book actually is. The book is useless, it completely missed the point in the sense that it did not provide us with what we looked for in such a book... but this being a thread about a 4th Edition Book of Erotic Fantasy you defend what the book should have been because a new book would be a second chance at an adult themed eroticism book that DOES provide you with the details you want?
If that's the case I totally agree.
Yes, that's it exactly.
Cleric
Sacred Prostitute (doing sexual healing for the glory of Ishtar)
Fighter
Harem Guard (A Eunech warrior)
Paladin
Virgin-Knight (a Chaste knight, drawing on their purity for mystic strength)
Chosen of Aphrodite (the opposite - she is a lover, and a fighter)
Ranger
Archer of Eros (shooting ritually prepared arrows to influence enotions)
Rogue
The Dandy/Dillitent (Cassanova-like abilities, specialing in the seduction & high class side of theivery
Warlock
The Fey-lover (has VERY close relations with the Fey, and is rewarded mystically
The Breeder of Monsters (name says it all)
Wizard
The Tantric Master (sexual rituals and body control)
Master of the Inner furnace (keeping his "energies" within, to use to boost spells)
The Blinding flame - drawing on sexual-release to empower spells
I'd suggest a wiki-to-pdf project. The first step is a wiki that allows people to suggest rules, it's really cool that people can anonymously add things so the painful subjects will be done as well.
Then you'd need a team of a rules design pragmatist and a gameplay design pragmatist gathering and rewriting articles in new versions of the book.
And if you chose really good pragmatists then you have a possibly worthwhile book. This book you offer to download for free while asking downloaders at least ten times for donation, and then people download it for free and print it at the local copy shop and there you have your book.
You may even manage to get free photography illustrations for it if the project takes off.
It would be fun and interesting to do if you can get the people and small funds for it...
Does anyone know anyone else intrested in the idea?
are any of you up for helping a wiki, I have no web experance (so I am 1st level) but would be willing to try
Maybe you could find an adult themed message board to move this discussion to. This website is frequented by children. This topic is really not something young kids should be exposed to. However free and whatnot you want to be,fine. But exposing young children to sexual themes is morally reprehensible.
Actually the discussion on this thread has been much more mature than the 4E hate/4E rulez thread on some of the other forums. If you are suggesting that we avoid the idea that the sex act exists then we have strayed into puritan territory and a stringent morality that even most of my southern GA town would not agree on.
I have been very impressed with the way that this thread has been handled so far and considering the way the WotC staff has jumped on other innocuous mentions of things in other threads I have to think that they must agree that this thread poses no clear and present danger to anyone or the CoC.
Cheers!
We had one--until Wizard shut down the (Im)Mature Boards. And if we want to protect kids, then threads need the proper meta tags (which Gleemax doesn't seem to support) and parents should monitor what they do online anyway. And whether or not exposing something to a child is "morally reprehensible" depends on whom you ask. But that's for another thread.
So you advocate child molestation? That is what exposing children to the garbage you speak of amounts to. Not a topic for another thread. No wonder gaming has such a stigma attached to it. Creepy post my friend, very creepy.
So you advocate child molestation? That is what exposing children to the garbage you speak of amounts to. Not a topic for another thread. No wonder gaming has such a stigma attached to it. Creepy post my friend, very creepy.
I think as long as we dont talk about details we are not doing anything of the sort... but I am working on a wiki as suggested
The one redeemable feature of the book (aside from pure amusement) was splitting Cha into appearance and personality (Cha and appearance), which I would have liked introduced into the core rules if for no other reason than to silence debates about whether a high Cha means you are pretty or if it is just your personality (or conversely, if a high Cha can be JUST a pretty face/nice bod and no personality).
We had a stat like that in 2nd edition in the UA. It was called Comeliness (COM) and was basically a seventh stat tacked on. Wizards decided not to bring it forth when they developed and released 3rd addition, and the appearance rule in this book was a nod to that 2nd edition addition.
basically, it's when, in any discussion, you take the opposing point of view and push it to an extreme
for example
person a)Too much police time is spent arresting people for small ammounts of cannabis posession. the law should be made more lax to give police some discression
person b)you can't legalise drugs. if you do that you will have heroin dealing in schools
person B has used a straw-man argument. he hasn't actually engaged person A in discussion, but has, rather, countered a more extreme, and more easy to argue, but related point.
But like i said it depends on the group that you are dealing with and my group are going a little ape about the fact that 4e is a watered down , family friendly version of D&D.
So you advocate child molestation? That is what exposing children to the garbage you speak of amounts to. Not a topic for another thread. No wonder gaming has such a stigma attached to it. Creepy post my friend, very creepy.
Great_Cthuloz has a point. Your statement is based on misrepresentation of my words and is thus invalid.
Since I'm being strawmanned I'm going to bow out. There's just no winning an argument with someone who does that. I'll be at GMforpowergamer's wiki for this topic from now on.
... no Licensed products will depict in any text, graphical or other manner...
sexual situations, sexual abuse, pornography, gratutious nudity of human or humanoid forms, genitalia, or sexual activity.
But if I were to allow player to do more what we will brand as adult only content there is public outrage and should be worrying about a man selling grading supplies trying to sell his stock as angry mob supplies.
Is that about right?
This discussion is over. Per line 7b of the GSL:
... no Licensed products will depict in any text, graphical or other manner...
sexual situations, sexual abuse, pornography, gratutious nudity of human or humanoid forms, genitalia, or sexual activity.
yes, that means no 3rd party cpuld do that...WotC can...
So you advocate child molestation? That is what exposing children to the garbage you speak of amounts to. Not a topic for another thread. No wonder gaming has such a stigma attached to it. Creepy post my friend, very creepy.
You go from raising a thoughtful question to making an outlandish statement. Would you limit the entire society to only saying, seeing, and hearing only that which is fit for children? No one on this board said anything graphic. To equate that to child molestation just makes you look silly.
But, this guy/girl does serve as a good discussion point. To some, the very mention of sex is more taboo and frightening than an in depth discussion of devil worship, mass murder, torture, and child killing combined. Outside the US, I understand it is the exact opposite. You can see porn on regular TV in Europe. But, the irrational puritanical values just pervaded the US from the beginning and are very hard to shake. No kids died watching the Janet Jackson superbowl incident, but it got more coverage, outrage, and congressional hearings than most mass murders or drug rings.
You will never be able to reason with people that prudish. They won't ever see things differently. Any mention of sex has to be kept in dark corners for fear that--horror of horrors--a child overhears and ends up like one of those kids who saw Janet Jackson. Children must grow up in an adult's world with the guidance of their parents. Adults must not be forced to live in a child's world. Until a critical mass of people realize that, Wizards will NEVER release their own BoEF. They were even taking a huge risk with their other mature books. (BoVD was their best work!) I don't even care about BoEF. I just want Wizards and the rest of the media industry to stop being shackled by puritanical prudes.
So you advocate child molestation? That is what exposing children to the garbage you speak of amounts to. Not a topic for another thread. No wonder gaming has such a stigma attached to it. Creepy post my friend, very creepy.
You go from raising a thoughtful question to making an outlandish statement. Would you limit the entire society to only saying, seeing, and hearing only that which is fit for children? No one on this board said anything graphic. To equate that to child molestation just makes you look silly.
But, this guy/girl does serve as a good discussion point. To some, the very mention of sex is more taboo and frightening than an in depth discussion of devil worship, mass murder, torture, and child killing combined. Outside the US, I understand it is the exact opposite. You can see porn on regular TV in Europe. But, the irrational puritanical values just pervaded the US from the beginning and are very hard to shake. No kids died watching the Janet Jackson superbowl incident, but it got more coverage, outrage, and congressional hearings than most mass murders or drug rings.
You will never be able to reason with people that prudish. They won't ever see things differently. Any mention of sex has to be kept in dark corners for fear that--horror of horrors--a child overhears and ends up like one of those kids who saw Janet Jackson. Children must grow up in an adult's world with the guidance of their parents. Adults must not be forced to live in a child's world. Until a critical mass of people realize that, Wizards will NEVER release their own BoEF. They were even taking a huge risk with their other mature books. (BoVD was their best work!) I don't even care about BoEF. I just want Wizards and the rest of the media industry to stop being shackled by puritanical prudes.
So you advocate child molestation? That is what exposing children to the garbage you speak of amounts to. Not a topic for another thread. No wonder gaming has such a stigma attached to it. Creepy post my friend, very creepy.
You go from raising a thoughtful question to making an outlandish statement. Would you limit the entire society to only saying, seeing, and hearing only that which is fit for children? No one on this board said anything graphic. To equate that to child molestation just makes you look silly.
But, this guy/girl does serve as a good discussion point. To some, the very mention of sex is more taboo and frightening than an in depth discussion of devil worship, mass murder, torture, and child killing combined. Outside the US, I understand it is the exact opposite. You can see porn on regular TV in Europe. But, the irrational puritanical values just pervaded the US from the beginning and are very hard to shake. No kids died watching the Janet Jackson superbowl incident, but it got more coverage, outrage, and congressional hearings than most mass murders or drug rings.
You will never be able to reason with people that prudish. They won't ever see things differently. Any mention of sex has to be kept in dark corners for fear that--horror of horrors--a child overhears and ends up like one of those kids who saw Janet Jackson. Children must grow up in an adult's world with the guidance of their parents. Adults must not be forced to live in a child's world. Until a critical mass of people realize that, Wizards will NEVER release their own BoEF. They were even taking a huge risk with their other mature books. (BoVD was their best work!) I don't even care about BoEF. I just want Wizards and the rest of the media industry to stop being shackled by puritanical prudes.
So you advocate child molestation? That is what exposing children to the garbage you speak of amounts to. Not a topic for another thread. No wonder gaming has such a stigma attached to it. Creepy post my friend, very creepy.
You go from raising a thoughtful question to making an outlandish statement. Would you limit the entire society to only saying, seeing, and hearing only that which is fit for children? No one on this board said anything graphic. To equate that to child molestation just makes you look silly.
But, this guy/girl does serve as a good discussion point. To some, the very mention of sex is more taboo and frightening than an in depth discussion of devil worship, mass murder, torture, and child killing combined. Outside the US, I understand it is the exact opposite. You can see porn on regular TV in Europe. But, the irrational puritanical values just pervaded the US from the beginning and are very hard to shake. No kids died watching the Janet Jackson superbowl incident, but it got more coverage, outrage, and congressional hearings than most mass murders or drug rings.
You will never be able to reason with people that prudish. They won't ever see things differently. Any mention of sex has to be kept in dark corners for fear that--horror of horrors--a child overhears and ends up like one of those kids who saw Janet Jackson. Children must grow up in an adult's world with the guidance of their parents. Adults must not be forced to live in a child's world. Until a critical mass of people realize that, Wizards will NEVER release their own BoEF. They were even taking a huge risk with their other mature books. (BoVD was their best work!) I don't even care about BoEF. I just want Wizards and the rest of the media industry to stop being shackled by puritanical prudes.
Is it just me or am I seeing a double standard in that if I were a DM and in my campaign (as a note I will say that my group is all over 18 ) I were to use in setting and in setting mood extreme graphic horror valance to a point where it will put a George A. Romero move to shame there is no complaints in fact most would have no problem with it and would most like want a spot in the campaign to play it,
But if I were to allow player to do more what we will brand as adult only content there is public outrage and should be worrying about a man selling grading supplies trying to sell his stock as angry mob supplies.
Is that about right?
I completely agree. I mean, come on. The toy industry is perfectly happy to market extreme violence to adolescents and even younger children. It's also apparently okay to portray women as busty sex objects. But when it comes to speaking frankly and responsibly about sex, the free market all too often capitulates to people who have a HUGE double standard about morality.
Let's not get too Orwellian and shut down mature discussions about sexuality. It's true, the BOED is very explicit (and mostly cheesy, if you ask me). Allowing such content to be developed for age-restricted audiences — or talking about the need for adult materials for D&D's largely adult market — is a perfectly respectable thing. As I've said in other posts, I think there's a need for elements of BOED, Book of Vile Darkness, Heroes of Horror and other stuff in the game. I welcome tools that help me take D&D to a more mature and artistic level, though I can do without the babes-in-bikinis schmaltz.
If WOTC makes this i will pay you one million dollars. In quarters. You really think Wizards would put out something like that? They can't even host a forum on mature themes. It doesn't seem to jibe with their current market strategy. Alienating parents and having their products tossed into the trash isn't quite the effect they are shooting for.
They are marketing this game to the Power Ranger and Pokemon crowd. Not the three people who would buy the Loser's Guide To Sexual Simulation.
They couldnt keep the mature boards because they decided to get an ESRB rating and it wont allow them to segregate the forums with a proof of age requirement like they had for the mature boards. It had nothing to do with alienating parents, Im sure if they thought they could make more money doing such they would embrace it. Thats what they're in business for. Money. Not any standards of ethics or morality no matter how liberal or conservative. Money. They're changing the market to kids because younger people spend their money instead of saving it, and they're less educated than older players who aren't as susceptible to marketing.
They also tend to be more easily amused, and don't require as much complication when it comes to being mentally and emotionally manipulated by advertising.
Or maybe I'm just cynical.
I'm not trying to be a butt-kisser here, but Book of Erotic Fantasy was one of my favorite D&D books ever. It was surprisingly mature and genuinely useful.
Is there going to be a 4th edition update? Or equivalent? Anybody heard anything?
Read the GSL...adult and/or sexual situations will not be considered for publication.
Also i am not a prude, but i do maintain a certain level of decency when it comes to my children. They aren't ignorant of the world by any means,it is quite a challenge to protect them from todays "enlightened society". I remember just like it was yesterday when the entire media was not flooded with sex and gore and now it is so pervasive it isn't even entertaining, much less shocking.
There was another book published about adult topics, called Naughty & Dice. Think D&D written like GURPS. Very good information to add adult themes to games, and not just for D&D/d20, but other games as well. (It also can serve as a basis to get around the 4th Edition gaming license rules). I easily recommend this book over BoEF (and it's still available at Amazon.)
Elements like this can be added by any DM who might wish to add them. I just do not see the need for anything like the BOEF or anything like it. There are so may more things i would rather see make the light of day i would be uber mad if WOTC wasted the time to produce such a rag.
Also i am not a prude, but i do maintain a certain level of decency when it comes to my children. They aren't ignorant of the world by any means,it is quite a challenge to protect them from todays "enlightened society". I remember just like it was yesterday when the entire media was not flooded with sex and gore and now it is so pervasive it isn't even entertaining, much less shocking.
Yet you allow them to play a game where they are essentially paid killers. Interesting.
Good job Wizards. I think that is the right choice. The game doesn't need that kind of garbage.
So...sex, something beautiful and natural and intended for all beings is 'garbage'? And a system of rules which amounts to nothing more than various means of physical (and metaphysical) assault on other living beings is 'good job, Wizards'?
Yeah, no double standard there. Just like the ridiculous horror at consensual sex being present through hacking in Grand Theft Auto: SA, when the regularly accessible game is about criminal activity and brutal murder.
I don't have graphic sex in my games. Sex and DnD are two pastimes I like to enjoy separately. You know what I did about the Book of Erotic Fantasy? Didn't buy it. Don't have a single problem with the book being published. It just isn't useful for my games. Neither was Cityscape though. If there are people who want sex in their games and are willing to purchase such, I think they should be able to have a sourcebook, which they will turn into a success or a failure based on how high the demand is.
I just find it supremely ironic that people would be horrified at the thought of adding sex to a game that is about murder and theft.
I loath too abmit it but most of the first chapter was usefull in geting a sense for varios creatures veiws on sex love and childbirth. The rest of the book was a waist of paper (cept the pregnincy and std rules wich were usefull when a charicter for spends more time in the bar than in the dungion) now lets never speak of it agin.
I again find myself saying this...it was a good idea, and a Badly written (rules) book. I want the same idea (adult look at the sexuality of the game) with it being done BETTER...
I thought Book of Vile darkness was a good book, but Heros of Horror was a great book. I think if WotC took some time, and had a good look att the game they could find aaway to make it work.
Does anyone know of a substitute, like the sex netbook for 2e?
Insert joke about sex being a daily power for men here.
Daily power? DAILY power?!?!
You need some vitamin E, or Viagra, or something.