I bought the 4th edition books at launch hoping to use the character generator, virtual tabletop, etc. as advertised. We all know the story from there.
I have yet to make use of these books as I was waiting for the tools to be finished. I just went on the dndinsider page and was happy to see the chatacter builder was completed. However, I saw no mention of the virtual character generator or virtual table top? Or am I blind?
Please don't tell me these were scrapped. It was the only reason I bought the books. Anyone know any details?
Hello. I've been out of the loop for awhile.
I bought the 4th edition books at launch hoping to use the character generator, virtual tabletop, etc. as advertised. We all know the story from there.
I have yet to make use of these books as I was waiting for the tools to be finished. I just went on the dndinsider page and was happy to see the chatacter builder was completed. However, I saw no mention of the virtual character generator or virtual table top? Or am I blind?
Please don't tell me these were scrapped. It was the only reason I bought the books. Anyone know any details?
There are DDi forums that you can search and read that have discussed just this. Perhaps you should travel to that section of the site.
It was the only reason I bought the books.
Buying a set of RPG books exclusively for the online tools intended to support them seriously doesn't make any sense. I call BS.
Hello. I've been out of the loop for awhile.
I bought the 4th edition books at launch hoping to use the character generator, virtual tabletop, etc. as advertised. We all know the story from there.
I have yet to make use of these books as I was waiting for the tools to be finished. I just went on the dndinsider page and was happy to see the chatacter builder was completed. However, I saw no mention of the virtual character generator or virtual table top? Or am I blind?
Please don't tell me these were scrapped. It was the only reason I bought the books. Anyone know any details?
They've provided no updates for months, and they've removed most mention of the Virtual Gametable, Character Visualizer, and Dungeon Builder. Many folks are assuming that either they've stopped development entirely on them. Notice that that with the removal of coming soon details, lack of feedback and news on them, they've repeatedly pimped the few portions of the DDI that they have finished. It reads like a textbook case of development hell or outright cancellation and not wanting yet more horrible PR and backlash by actually making an announcement to that effect.
They've provided no updates for months, and they've removed most mention of the Virtual Gametable, Character Visualizer, and Dungeon Builder. Many folks are assuming that either they've stopped development entirely on them. Notice that that with the removal of coming soon details, lack of feedback and news on them, they've repeatedly pimped the few portions of the DDI that they have finished. It reads like a textbook case of development hell or outright cancellation and not wanting yet more horrible PR and backlash by actually making an announcement to that effect.
Could you loan me your Development Hell textbook? I appear to have left mine in my locker.
Some of us optimists are still holding out for these tools! We have faith that WotC is genuinely interested in completing a suite of digital tools for 4E D&D, although we know that the timing of 4E has been unlucky with regards to the economy. We believe that once employment picks up again, these projects will once again become priorities.
*gives you a cookie!* I second this, heartily.
*gives you a cookie!* I second this, heartily.
Thanks, buddy!
Part of the problem is that Wizards fired/let go some of the team that had a hand in the whole electronic side of the D&D, though most were involved in the boards here or with the ill conceived Gleemax portal/board.
Hasbro, the parent company of Wizards, does not have a good history of video game development, and Wizards dropped CMP like a bad habit instead of asking them or any other developer to help with the new DDi. Lone Wolf mentioned to me, at Gen Con, that they offered to do the Character Generator, and it would have been done at release if they would have done it, but Wizards declined.
That the DDi is overpriced isn't helping matters. The new price (60 bucks for a year, is it?) is still to much for to little. That the price may go back up (15 bucks a month) when (not if) the rest of the features is done may have more than just me scratching their head.
That the DDi is overpriced isn't helping matters. The new price (60 bucks for a year, is it?) is still to much for to little. That the price may go back up (15 bucks a month) when (not if) the rest of the features is done may have more than just me scratching their head.
60 bucks a year works out to 5 bucks a month. That's chump change, considering the access to every player option in every published 4e book in and of itself. Add in the additional dungeon and dragon content, and frankly it's a damn good deal.
Look at it this way. 60 bucks is the equivalent of possibly three books a year, presuming you're buying from Amazon. Or two a year if you buy in-store. And instead you get access to all the options in every book.
Yeah. What a ripoff.
It continues every year, and that price point isn't set in stone. I don't consider the preview mags worth a dollar, though I have heard that some of the adventure modules are pretty good when tweaked out and adjusted.
My main beef is the tools that used to be on the "free" web site is now "extras" on the pay site, and that a choice of a character generator is now gone since Wizards won't "license" out a stand alone program, or even make one themselves to replace the recently pulled E-Tools.
In case anyone is new to this, this is an old run around and I think this is the last post I will put up about it in this thread.
Going over the original question, yes, I believe that the Visualizer, game table, and Mapper is still be worked on. The Visualizer is simple enough that it may be the next to come out, though it may not be the app that is being concentrated on at the moment. The main problem is people. They don't have any, and are still reluctant to hire more to get this done. All this is me assuming things, though, so I can not say for sure. Take a look at it in it's current form, and decide for yourself. I am taking a pass, myself.
It would be nice, if that was all you was to pay for it.
It continues every year...
You should have paid attention to the part where I said "60 bucks a year", not "WOW, a one-time fee of 60 bucks!!!!!"
Do try and read my post before you respond next time, plz k thx.
... a choice of a character generator is now gone since Wizards won't "license" out a stand alone program, or even make one themselves to replace the recently pulled E-Tools.
Why in the world should WOTC give someone else a license to make a generator that grants access to information from every one of THEIR BOOKS and profit from it, when they can and are doing so themselves? Why should they say "Here, take our stuff and compete against us!" That plain doesn't make any sense.
It continues every year, and that price point isn't set in stone. I don't consider the preview mags worth a dollar, though I have heard that some of the adventure modules are pretty good when tweaked out and adjusted.
Those magazine are far more than just preview material. Dragon includes numerous expanded play options; races, powers, feats, magic items, paragon paths, epic destines, and more. Most of these could only be considered preview content if one counts the annual Best of Dragon book that WotC intends to produce each year.
Also, the magazines are downloadable content which means that one can keep them forever, even long after one allows ones subscription to lapse. The Character Builder is also a downloadable product that one can continue to use subscription or not; one only need be a subscriber to download the monthly rules updates. Only the Compendium truly requires an active subscription. So for a one time payment of $60 I get over 2,880 pages of magazine content and a character design utility that includes all of the associated rules up to when my subscription ends; all of which is mine to keep forever.
My main beef is the tools that used to be on the "free" web site is now "extras" on the pay site, and that a choice of a character generator is now gone since Wizards won't "license" out a stand alone program, or even make one themselves to replace the recently pulled E-Tools.
Even as a subscriber myself, I will admit a dispointment with the noticible decline in the amount of non-subscriber material availible on the websight. You are right that much of much of what used to be free is now paid content, however, given the economy and WotC recent lay off this may just be part of the course. WotC may have had to choose between providing such services for free or charging. Given a choice between no additional support/content or having to pay for it, I have chosen pay for it.
Could you loan me your Development Hell textbook? I appear to have left mine in my locker.
Sure, but it will cost your soul.
Sure, but it will cost your soul.
But...but...I've already sold it! *sobs* Now how will I do my homework!?!?!?!
Lawl. I give you a
, good sir.Why in the world should WOTC give someone else a license to make a generator that grants access to information from every one of THEIR BOOKS and profit from it, when they can and are doing so themselves? Why should they say "Here, take our stuff and compete against us!" That plain doesn't make any sense.
The DDi as it is now, that is the case.
My disappointment is that the way DDi is designed is to make it compete with what is already out there for the previous edition, then cuts out the competition by being the only thing available for the new one. I want to have the program on the puter, and be able to use it at anytime no matter if I have Internet Access or not. DDi does not provide that, and charges me continuously for a client program. The updates of new material is nice, though the cost is still above what one would buy with data packs or a lesser update yearly fee that a stand alone may have. I would hope there is a way to leave out all the preview mag content in the client, and other sources that I don't necessarily have the books for.
The mags are ghosts of what they were before, and indeed have a lot of "Preview" material, though some of it is for the hard/soft cover yearly/bi-yearly dragon book release. Any class or player race is preview stuff, no matter how it is presented. The only place new races and classes will be is in campaign player guides and PHB's. Not in a yearly mag soft cover.
I don't know, it just seems to miss the mark to me, and I am not the only one.
I want to have the program on the puter, and be able to use it at anytime no matter if I have Internet Access or not. DDi does not provide that, and charges me continuously for a client program.
What? Perhaps you have been misinformed. The Character Builder is a downloadable utility, that once installed on your computer can be used at any time (no Internet connection required) and is yours to keep forever. The only element that requires a subscription are the monthly updates containing the latest rules material, but each of those downloads is yours to keep forever regardless of continues subscription status.
Any class or player race is preview stuff, no matter how it is presented. The only place new races and classes will be is in campaign player guides and PHB's. Not in a yearly mag soft cover.
So far all classes published in the digital version of Dragon have been playtests. The races, however, have all been original content and are not connected to any specific future release. Even the warforged article was about playing warforged in the generic setting rather than containing any Eberron preview content. Each monthly issue is chock full of feats, paragon paths, epic destinies, and magic items; all of which are original to the magazine, and which are unlikely to appear in any particular future product save the yearly compilation hard back.
Last I'd heard none of the tools were dropped, but some were on the back burner and some not originally talked about are at a higher priority since they can be completed faster and therefor grow the selection of usable tools while the more time-consuming to develop get worked on.
As someone else stated as well a good portion of the DDI staff has been laid off due to budget constraints. Honestly if you want the tools to be developed then subscribe. The more revenue they get now the more budget they can justify for future development. I won't speculate on why the tools aren't ready already but some likely causes are easy to guess if you have any experience with companies, development cycles, and contractors.
What? Perhaps you have been misinformed. The Character Builder is a downloadable utility, that once installed on your computer can be used at any time (no Internet connection required) and is yours to keep forever. The only element that requires a subscription are the monthly updates containing the latest rules material, but each of those downloads is yours to keep forever regardless of continues subscription status.
It needs at least a one month sub, which isn't bad in itself, but any bug fixes, which was many in that first update (Not up to Fluid levels, but significant), and mechanical/programing restructuring (which is gonna be many, since the other tools will be using it for info for their own reasons) is only available with the monthly updates, and those are only to current subscribers. E-Tools still has the update on the CMP website, free, and if one buy the cd at a garage sale, they can get the update and use the thing.
This is not a good way to patch a program, but it is a way to update a client, like WoW or Guild Wars.
So far all classes published in the digital version of Dragon have been playtests. The races, however, have all been original content and are not connected to any specific future release. Even the warforged article was about playing warforged in the generic setting rather than containing any Eberron preview content. Each monthly issue is chock full of feats, paragon paths, epic destinies, and magic items; all of which are original to the magazine, and which are unlikely to appear in any particular future product save the yearly compilation hard back.
Not everything will make it, and some of the stuff will be used in other products. Races will either be in Player Guides or stuck online. The illusion spells are an example of place holder for the Wizard until the Illusionist comes out in a later PHB. Those spells will stay online until the class is introduced, then errorated to reflect their moving from the Wizard to the new class. It is a preview.
The Character Creator is finally working (good job). I hope the dungeon creator / game table is done soon... the character viewer would be nice too, So... whatever happened to those too ?
I do subscribe to the DnDI, it's very handy, all my players sit around that table with laptops.
Buying a set of RPG books exclusively for the online tools intended to support them seriously doesn't make any sense. I call BS.
This is not the only person to do that. It is a common story...
I would think that a person would come here to try and get help and information, rather than be ripped on for their reasons for purchasing the items.
Then again, I have seen the rest of your posts in this thread and your condescending manner appears to be in everything you have posted. It is pretty rude.
---------------------------------------------------
To the OP...
The information that you seek isn't available right now. WotC has neither confirmed nor denied that they will be releasing the remaining tools. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful than that.
E-Tools still has the update on the CMP website, free, and if one buy the cd at a garage sale, they can get the update and use the thing.
You dodged my question. Why should another company be able to profit from WOTC's work in that fashion?
The illusion spells are an example of place holder for the Wizard until the Illusionist comes out in a later PHB. Those spells will stay online until the class is introduced, then errorated to reflect their moving from the Wizard to the new class. It is a preview.
Wrong. According to the spoilers people have been posting, at least the At-Will power featured in the article you mention has been included in Arcane Power. I'm not sure how many of the others are in there, because I don't have the book yet, but I highly doubt they're just going to errata them into another class. I don't know where you would get this idea.
The character visualizer is another thing entirely though. Those programs always feel like Mr. Potato Head ripoffs... I still hope they make one, but you must admit the DDI is a pretty sweet product even without it.
I subscribed for a year of ddi. As a dm it's a boon, because I have an excuse for my players to come over and talk about their characters as they make them. As a player I can look up any rule pertinent to my character's abilities at the drop of a hat. I still use the PHB and the DMG for specifics regarding the rules, but as far as new material that has come out seperate from the core three, I have no need whatsoever to buy books. I have the program saved and backed up with every race class and errata'd power to come. Worst to worse I re-download the app and it's patches over night and continue to play with or without internet connection.
The Compendium covers everything else. It's online, but I use it to build an encounter, save said encounter and stats to my hard drive and take my laptop to the game. Copy. Paste. Use. Delete. No issues.
To the original poster, I recommend googling virtual tabletop and shopping around for a bit. Guarantee there are apps out there that will have fewer bugs than whatever Wizards produces for a digital table in the next year or so.
I really can't wait until it's an integrated system though, where you make a character, and send him into an online dungeon as a 3d mini you designed... In the meantime there are people who do it with 2d minis and get by fine.
Ask some of the posters over in the Campaign Workshop what they use to play online. As for the visualizer... Do you have a friend who's good at drawing? :D
Cheers.
I was at Gen Con when 4E was previewed, the presenters stated that ALL 4E books would have a PDF download version for all who bought the book(s). So... whatever happened to that?
A combination of logistic problems with how to keep people from stealing the codes and programming issues with how they were planning on integrating the codes with D&Di caused them to scrap the plan. On the bright side, due to that the compendium and character builder now list every rule element in the game(originally they were going to only list ones for books you had activated on your account).
According to what they said over the weekend at Norwescon, they found that trying to get all the digital tools done at once was having the effect that none of them were getting done, so they decided to focus on individual tools. Now that the Character Builder is out, they said they were in plans to move on to the next one, but that they hadn't decided yet which one it would be.
Interesting. Then I'd read the following out of that as being possible:
1) The coders don't have the skill or experience for the project
2) Management doesn't know how to run such a project in the least
3) Management has failed to either hire enough people for the project, or be willing to pay for the people with the level of talent needed to see the project through to completion. You should hire people who have the skills needed rather than expecting them to learn their way up to that point on the job while time, money, and consumer good will is wasted.
Some or all of those may be why we're approaching a year and they've gotten only the lowest hanging fruit picked and on the table.
No subscription needed.
Subscriber top responses included:
Tools to;
create and manage campaign info
customize and print monsters
customize and print pre-made adventures
create character portraits
play tabletop D&D over the Internet
Non-subscribers top responses included:
Tools to;
customize and print pre-made adventures
customize and print monsters
create and manage campaign info
play tabletop D&D over the internet
create character portraits
Bel
The results of the DDi survey are up on the website: DDi Insider Survey Results
No subscription needed.
Subscriber top responses included:
Tools to;
create and manage campaign info
customize and print monsters
customize and print pre-made adventures
create character portraits
play tabletop D&D over the Internet
Non-subscribers top responses included:
Tools to;
customize and print pre-made adventures
customize and print monsters
create and manage campaign info
play tabletop D&D over the internet
create character portraits
Bel
Let's hope this means that the Game Table is still "on the table!"
...I crack myself up.
Interesting. Then I'd read the following out of that as being possible:
1) The coders don't have the skill or experience for the project
2) Management doesn't know how to run such a project in the least
3) Management has failed to either hire enough people for the project, or be willing to pay for the people with the level of talent needed to see the project through to completion. You should hire people who have the skills needed rather than expecting them to learn their way up to that point on the job while time, money, and consumer good will is wasted.
Some or all of those may be why we're approaching a year and they've gotten only the lowest hanging fruit picked and on the table.
Number 2.
I have a feeling that part of the problem is the downturn of the economy. Hard to hire people when the bottom line is getting lower.
I've seen discussion on this on the MapTool Forum RP Tools Forum
Somebody said, "I hope they don't take Trevor away from to work for WotC's game table."
And the admin (Trevor) responded, "If they hired me, I would do it in a heart beat."
So there is talent out there, and perhaps not overly expensive talent either.
The biggest stink of the year for the VT apps, was when Game Table advertising posted this is what the game table looks like - and WotC just copied the interface of Fantasy Grounds - even the graphics on their UI was used in this proposed "game table design". They couldn't even fake one themselves.
Others seem to do it no problem, I have no idea, why this is such a bear for the WotC developers.
GP
"Subscribers:
create and manage campaign info
customize and print monsters
customize and print pre-made adventures
Non-subscribers:
customize and print pre-made adventures
customize and print monsters
create and manage campaign info"
I pretty much agree, but I would really like the map and tabletop tools tool- I would pay more for those even.
Also that Fantasy Grounds fiasco was a mistake. The images that got put up were meant to be internal mockups only from early on and never meant for public viewing. Such mockups are quite common actually when proposing a new product that has a similar product out there already, they're meant for drumming up 'interest' from the decision makers and it's easier to use existing material than spend time/money on making fresh mockups, especially on a tight budget.
it's easier to use existing material than spend time/money on making fresh mockups, especially on a tight budget.
I hear you, but it would take me 15 minutes to whip up a mockup of a UI if its only intended for speculation only. To use a competitors UI as a mockup is being quite lazy, the cost for 15 minutes of design can't be all that high.
Perhaps it was not meant for public viewing, but to avoid the fiasco that was created by it, taking 15 minutes to create you own design is a much better PR method of doing something, than not.
GP
Interesting. Then I'd read the following out of that as being possible:
1) The coders don't have the skill or experience for the project
2) Management doesn't know how to run such a project in the least
3) Management has failed to either hire enough people for the project, or be willing to pay for the people with the level of talent needed to see the project through to completion. You should hire people who have the skills needed rather than expecting them to learn their way up to that point on the job while time, money, and consumer good will is wasted.
Some or all of those may be why we're approaching a year and they've gotten only the lowest hanging fruit picked and on the table.
So are you saying that you have the talent to have created top-of-the-line game enhancing tools by now? :D
Personally, I think they do not have enough money to throw at the digital tools, a questionable area of revenue, when the 4th ed paper products are more of a "sure-fire" source of income. They may be wrong, (in fact, I think they are wrong) but this is a company that hasn't really been in the digital business much. Their front page mentions what, Trading Card Games, Board Games, Roleplaying and Miniature games. They either don't trust the digital or don't understand it; this would explain why any video games made with their products in mind have been made by outside companies. Thus I think they don't know how to run the project, and also don't understand the market for digital content.
I hear you, but it would take me 15 minutes to whip up a mockup of a UI if its only intended for speculation only. To use a competitors UI as a mockup is being quite lazy, the cost for 15 minutes of design can't be all that high.
Perhaps it was not meant for public viewing, but to avoid the fiasco that was created by it, taking 15 minutes to create you own design is a much better PR method of doing something, than not.
GP
Maybe they should fire the ditz that made it then, and hire you.
After all, if the position is hourly instead of salary, they could get more work out of you, avoid such snafus, and pay out less in the process! ;)
Mike: hey, we could pay one guy for an hour of work to steal someone else's UI or get this guy to do it in 15 minutes!
Andy: well fire that ditz and hire this other guy. We need more money for our morning coffee, dammit.
Rich: as long as he can't write adventures or novels. I get to do that. Right Mike?
Mike: Yeah, Rich, whatever.
;)
I'm a graphic designer/digital printer in my day business. And I run Gamer Printshop - a map printing business for RPG maps, plus I'm a pro fantasy cartographer. I don't have enough hours now to do the work I'm getting!
Being a small business owner, I have no desire whatsoever to work for a large corporation, let alone Hasbro, anytime soon. :D
GP
Except I run two companies already and don't need a job!
I'm a graphic designer/digital printer in my day business. And I run Gamer Printshop - a map printing business for RPG maps, plus I'm a pro fantasy cartographer. I don't have enough hours now to do the work I'm getting!
Being a small business owner, I have no desire whatsoever to work for a large corporation, let alone Hasbro, anytime soon. :D
GP
Give in to the Dark Side . . .;)
I'm a graphic designer/digital printer in my day business. And I run Gamer Printshop - a map printing business for RPG maps, plus I'm a pro fantasy cartographer. I don't have enough hours now to do the work I'm getting!
Neato!:D
For the last two years, I've had a "gentleman's agreement" with Russ Morrissey of E.N. Publishing to print War of the Burning Sky maps. He just contacted me yesterday, regarding the requirement for the printing service to be licensed for WoBS 4e. So it looks like I'll be official, at least for E.N. Publishing.
Right now, I POD print maps for Wolfgang Bauer's Open Design Project on an official basis, as well as Rite Publishing, and many others.
I do commission maps for everybody, though. From individuals for private games, to many small and medium sized publishers: Mongoose Publishing, Dog House Rulez, Dementia 5, and Iron Crown Enterprises (yeah, they need maps too.)
My next project will be my first foray into publication, I am working on a 3 module mini-campaign arc for a setting I'm developing called Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting. Since the publisher I am doing a collaborative work with hasn't signed onto GSL, it will be published OGL. But I look forward to how that will market - probably in June 2009.
Like I said, I'm a busy, busy guy!
I apologize for Threadjacking here!
GP
Actually I was contacted by the head fo the Star Wars Division at WotC, early last year about the possibility of becoming a licensed printer for Star Wars maps, but upon investigation it turned out that the Lucas License prevented such a relationship - so I'd take WotC as a client, but not an employer.
For the last two years, I've had a "gentleman's agreement" with Russ Morrissey of E.N. Publishing to print War of the Burning Sky maps. He just contacted me yesterday, regarding the requirement for the printing service to be licensed for WoBS 4e. So it looks like I'll be official, at least for E.N. Publishing.
Right now, I POD print maps for Wolfgang Bauer's Open Design Project on an official basis, as well as Rite Publishing, and many others.
I do commission maps for everybody, though. From individuals for private games, to many small and medium sized publishers: Mongoose Publishing, Dog House Rulez, Dementia 5, and Iron Crown Enterprises (yeah, they need maps too.)
My next project will be my first foray into publication, I am working on a 3 module mini-campaign arc for a setting I'm developing called Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting. Since the publisher I am doing a collaborative work with hasn't signed onto GSL, it will be published OGL. But I look forward to how that will market - probably in June 2009.
Like I said, I'm a busy, busy guy!
I apologize for Threadjacking here!
GP
I don't mind! It's interesting stuff.
Thanks again for everyone's feedback/input. I guess the only real thing we can all agree on is: no one knows for sure what the heck is going on with the tools, and only time (or a at-this-point-highly-unexpected-announcement from WoTC) will tell.
Time to give Fantasy Grounds a whirl and dust off my 3.5 books.
Take care, everyone.
Thanks for the suggestions on the available tools out there (Fantasy Grounds, etc.). However good these third party tools are, I feel it's important for myself to not lose sight of the simple fact that: I could have been perfectly happy using all these great third party tools and not bought 4e at all. "I bought the 4th edition books at launch hoping to use the character generator, virtual tabletop, etc. as advertised." Alas, for whatever management or economic issues, I was led on.
Thanks again for everyone's feedback/input. I guess the only real thing we can all agree on is: no one knows for sure what the heck is going on with the tools, and only time (or a at-this-point-highly-unexpected-announcement from WoTC) will tell.
Time to give Fantasy Grounds a whirl and dust off my 3.5 books.
Take care, everyone.
Best of luck to you, and I hope that you are willing to give 4E another shot sometime in the future, when circumstances are better.