Specifically, I'm curious as to whether they've started work on 5e yet, and any rumors related thereof. I'd also like to hear speculation on the possible forms 5e might take. Yeah, I know it's early, but it's gonna be a long wait either way, so I might as well start talking about it now.
Sorry if this has been done before, but search apparently thinks 5e is to short of a term to acknowledge.
From what I've been reading, the D&D side of WotC plans their book schedule out two years in advance, so barring 4E being a huge flop, we should be able to expect it at least that long. I would say it would 5 years before people have become jaded enough with the system as-is before a major overall - I think the PHB2 and such will only mitigate that so much before folks are clamoring for a consolidated, errataed, new-look version.
However, with the state of several things - DDM and other concerns, my money is on 4E not lasting more than 3 years. May this be the last edition.
-DDI (even with its slowdowns I am sure there have been a fair number of subscriptions (myself included) and it could keep a steady income).
-The yearly PHB, MM and DMGs. These books are likely to sale pretty well and will give nice momentum for another year.
-Yearly Campaign Settings, by having a yearly campaign setting it means that each year a fresh campaign can come out. There is already a huge list of possible settings WoTC has collected.
-They have stated there is not going to be 4.5.
These things I think all work toward a longer life. As for what 5e may bring. I imagine it could very well continue in the narrative driven angle, with more focus on creating a rule-system based around creating dynamic and engaging stories and less world-building.
May this be the last edition.
Huh??
My biggest concern about 4e is something that has happened in every edition so far: power creep. I usually welcome a new edition when the old one has gotten out of hand (like both 3.5 and 2e did near the end of their lives).
May this be the last edition.
What the heck???
What the heck???
Yep, you heard right. I'm so disgusted with 4E I'm hoping this will be the last edition of D&D - ever.
I don't think 15 years is anywhere near realistic. Most other RP games I've seen will do a new version every 3-5 years. D&D has been the only one I've seen where everyone dreads a new edition and edition changes are so slow. My current favorite, L5R, is on 3.5 itself and the 1st edition only came out in '99.
From what I've been reading, the D&D side of WotC plans their book schedule out two years in advance, so barring 4E being a huge flop, we should be able to expect it at least that long. I would say it would 5 years before people have become jaded enough with the system as-is before a major overall - I think the PHB2 and such will only mitigate that so much before folks are clamoring for a consolidated, errataed, new-look version.
However, with the state of several things - DDM and other concerns, my money is on 4E not lasting more than 3 years. May this be the last edition.
I think this post is kind of silly. The longest amount of time between an edition was about 15 years. The shortest was about 5. What other games do is irrelevant, what matters is D&D's track record. Unfortunately, D&D does not have a good track record with pleasant edition changes. This does not make its parent company want to put out edition changes more frequently. And, 4e's concept of 1 setting per year, 3 core books per year, is specifically designed to create revenue (through new products) while avoiding the feel of "constant splat books." Its designed to allow the edition to last longer...
The rest of the post I quoted reads like little more then anti 4e rhetoric: "considering how awful it is, how this has failed, with the state of things, 3 years tops! No more editions of D&D from WotC!" Bologna. 4e has already sold better then 3e did. This makes D&D more of a success from WoTC's point of view. The longer it continues to be a success, the longer there will be before an edition change.
What it really boils down to is this: there is no way to tell how long there will be before an edition change. Considering D&D's track record, 3 years is very highly unlikely. 5 years is possible, but it would make 4e one of D&Ds shortest lived editions. For that to happen, 4e will have to be the least successful of D&D's editions. Right now, that is not what 4e is turning out to be. Regardless of ones personal opinion on 4e, it is selling well. This makes it a success from the point of view of business. So, right now, it is looking like the edition will likely last longer then 5 years. Considering the edition is doing far better than 3e did, and there is actually less stink about this edition change then there was when 2e went 3e, I predict that we will have at least 10 years until a new edition. If sales stats on 4e products have a drastic drop off, however, then I will be wrong. 4e's life span will drop.
If I were to place a guess I'd say that Stormonu is fairly close, something like five years with three at the outside. Although I disagree about it being the last edition, even in the case of those of us who dislike 4e quite a few of us still want a new edition. Pathfinder just doesn't cut it, and other systems simply aren't D&D (although, honestly I find Nobilis to be my favorite system), I still want to play D&D quite often however.
Also, I'm not quite certain what you mean by narrative driven Sigil, that seems more like a choice for the DM than something that occurs in rulebooks.
Personally, what I'm hoping for is they go back towards where 3.5 was headed with increasing numbers of options, and diversification rather than simplification. However, I suspect this is unrealistic and it'll happen the other way around.
Seriously, Stormonu? That's more Drama then most women dredge up in the average workplace. That's more drama then my 16-year-old little sister can bring up after an average Dance. I'm so sorry for you. :surrender
And no, I'm not being sarcastic here at all. I really do feel bad for people who feel that 4E has utterly destroyed DnD and their lives along with it.
So I could see D&D following more in the suit considering what 4e has currently done. Things like the Power System, division of PC and NPC rules, etc. are more to create a easier to manage/tell story-driven game rather then a world-driven game, if you get my drift (I always have difficult explaining this kind of stuff :P )
Also, to be blunt Stormonu that is just selfish. Just because you don't like an edition you would wish to have no other editions, so that no one else will find their D&D. Since that is one of the main benifits of edition changes so that more and more people will find the D&D right for them. For some it is 4e, for others 3.5, 2e, etc. and it is thanks to edition changes that this is possible.
I agree that they probably have the lifespan of 4e planned out, that said I sincerely doubt that it'll be anywhere near a decade much less fifteen years. Even in console gaming game systems do not last that long, and it takes a lot more money to fuel development there.
If I were to place a guess I'd say that Stormonu is fairly close, something like five years with three at the outside. Although I disagree about it being the last edition, even in the case of those of us who dislike 4e quite a few of us still want a new edition. Pathfinder just doesn't cut it, and other systems simply aren't D&D (although, honestly I find Nobilis to be my favorite system), I still want to play D&D quite often however.
Also, I'm not quite certain what you mean by narrative driven Sigil, that seems more like a choice for the DM than something that occurs in rulebooks.
Personally, what I'm hoping for is they go back towards where 3.5 was headed with increasing numbers of options, and diversification rather than simplification. However, I suspect this is unrealistic and it'll happen the other way around.
I suppose people can hope for whatever they want. Of course, once again, when we look at the facts of the past, 3 years becomes the least likely possibility ever. When was the last time a D&D edition lasted 3 years? Never. Why would a D&D edition last only 3 years if there is no profit in making this decision? It wouldn't. Why would there be profit in making this decision if 4e is selling better then 3e did, and the decision to go 5th edition would **** off those buying 4e books right now? They wouldn't. There will not be an edition change until 4e is selling poorly enough that WoTC will make more revenue by ******* off those buying 4e books (by creating a new edition) then they would by appeasing them (by printing more 4e books). So, for as long as people are running out to buy the latest D&D books, 4e will survive. When sales see a serious drop off, and the system begins to stagnate under bloat (and players shrugging off new books because they don't feel these books are necessary) then a new edition will be released. Again, considering D&D's track record, this is highly unlikely to happen in less then 5 years. Considering that 3e lasted what, 8, 10 years, and 4e is off to a better start, chances are likely it will outlive 3e (if it continues to sell as it has been). This is pure business...
Also, the reason D&D editions last longer then the editions of any other PnP is for precisely the same reason. D&D sells better than any other PnP system, and as a result, it is not beneficial for D&D to release new editions as frequently as any other PnP system.
Yep, you heard right. I'm so disgusted with 4E I'm hoping this will be the last edition of D&D - ever.
Wow. I'm sorry this game has displeased you so much that you'd ruin everyone else's fun. I hope you can find another hobby.
Anyhow, I have a hard time believing that 4e will only last 5 years. As was mentioned earlier, WotC seems to spend at least a couple of years developing a new edition. 4e would have to develop more than a few problems in the next three years for them to start thinking of a possible 5e. The reason I think they went from 3e to 3.5 is because they realized that 3e had so much more potential (fewer dead levels in the classes for one), and they felt like the game would be better for a new "half" edition.
I believe that WotC really put a lot of effort into making 4e solid and, barring some minor issues that came up later (read Stealth and DCs), 4e is still a good system. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it definitely fits WotC's goals: Balanced, Structured, and Fun (this last one is a little more subjective, but I think a majority of people will agree with me here). What really assures me that 4e will be around longer than 3.x is that WotC has apparently made a plan of the type of material they're going to release, and also made guidelines for its developers so that power creep doesn't get crazy.
Power creep is one of the major things that really begins to hamper an edition. It's difficult to put out material consistently for 10 years and have everything be just as balanced as the stuff in the PHB. I think that WotC has made a conscious effort to limit power creep this time out, and it will result in a longer edition life, and more player satisfaction.
Again, these are my opinions and observations, so feel free to disagree.
I could see 5th edition, or perhaps 6th or 7th, as basically a subscription based, turn based, overhead view tactical fantasy computer game, getting rid of the books altogether. They can make more money by charging every player 15 bucks a month than they can by selling most of the books to 1 out of 5 players, who then shares with the others, and can choose to only purchase 3 core books. Or none at all, if they choose to pirate the books.
Basically, the evolution of the gametable technology, to the point where the gameboard is animated on a computer screen. You pay to subscribe to the main service that lets you play with others across the country or in your home. It adds modules/maps/spells/classes/races/settings on a regular basis, through a computer subscription rather than through paper books.
Trust me, if they can figure out a way to charge you to actually play the game, rather than just selling the pieces or the rules, that would be the ultimate goal.
I could see 5th edition, or perhaps 6th or 7th, as basically a subscription based, turn based, overhead view tactical fantasy computer game, getting rid of the books altogether. They can make more money by charging every player 15 bucks a month than they can by selling most of the books to 1 out of 5 players, who then shares with the others, and can choose to only purchase 3 core books. Or none at all, if they choose to pirate the books.
Basically, the evolution of the gametable technology, to the point where the gameboard is animated on a computer screen. You pay to subscribe to the main service that lets you play with others across the country or in your home. It adds modules/maps/spells/classes/races/settings on a regular basis, through a computer subscription rather than through paper books.
Wow. Melodrama. Seriously...!? I mean, come on...
I suppose people can hope for whatever they want. Of course, once again, when we look at the facts of the past, 3 years becomes the least likely possibility ever. When was the last time a D&D edition lasted 3 years? Never. Why would a D&D edition last only 3 years if there is no profit in making this decision? It wouldn't. Why would there be profit in making this decision if 4e is selling better then 3e did, and the decision to go 5th edition would **** off those buying 4e books right now? They wouldn't. There will not be an edition change until 4e is selling poorly enough that WoTC will make more revenue by ******* off those buying 4e books (by creating a new edition) then they would by appeasing them (by printing more 4e books). So, for as long as people are running out to buy the latest D&D books, 4e will survive. When sales see a serious drop off, and the system begins to stagnate under bloat (and players shrugging off new books because they don't feel these books are necessary) then a new edition will be released.
I agree for the most part with what you're saying, however you're forgetting that they'll be trying to concentrate the most profit in the smallest amount of time. At least, profit is what companies are about.
So, while three years might not be realistic they may very well try to pack it into five, particularly since in five years many people who bought 4e may very well have stopped playing, and need a new incentive to start again.
Wow. Melodrama. Seriously...!? I mean, come on...
What melodrama? It's a better business model. I'd probably pay for it.
I agree for the most part with what you're saying, however you're forgetting that they'll be trying to concentrate the most profit in the smallest amount of time. At least, profit is what companies are about.
So, while three years might not be realistic they may very well try to pack it into five, particularly since in five years many people who bought 4e may very well have stopped playing, and need a new incentive to start again.
If, by 5 years time, the people who have bought 4e have started to stop playing, or at least stop buying books, then you are bang on the money. They will start to release a new edition in order to reinvigorate interest. Even if they upset a small (and vocal) minority who are still playing/buying 4e books, they will need to make this decision in order to continue to generate revenue.
My argument is that the statement that 4e will stop generating revenue that fast is very silly. When making a prediction, unless you are just spouting a baseless opinion out of thin air, it is best to examine past precedent. There has never been an edition change that happened in 5 years. I think 3e only went 3.5 in that span of time, no? The 3e (both 3.0 and 3.5) had the most rocky reception of any new edition (even more rocky then 4e reception), had some serious game play issues at release, and did not start off with sales as high as 4e sales. It still managed to generate enough revenue to live for about 10 years. That suggests that 4e will probably outlive this time period. It has had less of a rocky reception then 3e, while some argue that it does have game play issues, those who actually play it consider these issues to be benefits and not detriments (whereas with 3e, those actually playing it had major problems with it), and it is selling better then 3e did at its release. All signs point to a longer lifespan. I'm not talking on the premise of preference. Whether you like 4e or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether a sizable enough majority like 4e enough for it to continue to generate revenue... a quick comparison with 3e suggests that it does, and will, for some time to come.
Yep, you heard right. I'm so disgusted with 4E I'm hoping this will be the last edition of D&D - ever.
I felt much the same way about v3.5/d20 which is why I never made the switch from 2E. Maybe 5E will shift the game back towards your tastes.
As for the rest of the comments made in this thread, the only thing I can really add is that I've been using the Alternity system since I discovered it in 2000. It was already canceled by that point but I managed to find copies of most of the books and have used it exclusively since then (I've tried other systems and found them lacking).
We're all here to have some fun. If 4E isn't doing it for you, leave WotC a (nice) note and either stick with an old system you enjoy or find a new system/publisher for now. When the new edition rolls out you can always take a look and see if it's more to your liking. Just because you thumb through the PHB at your local bookstore doesn't mean you're contracted to buy everything for the new edition.
What melodrama? It's a better business model. I'd probably pay for it.
Yea. Sure. "D&D is turning into a MMO!" No melodrama there.
There will always be a market for PnP RPG's. Even if these RPG's try and use the virtual medium to their benefit, as 4e is doing with DDi, they will continue to make these mediums an optional addendum and not a necessary feature. The reason is purely economic. There is a market for PnP RPG's. Most of us who play the game play the game for narrative. Most of us who play the game want a system for which a GM/DM builds his own stories, and then runs them. Most of us want a game that is NOT virtual (though a virtual game table and miniature set will certainly be welcomed by me). So long as enough of us want to buy a PnP game that a PnP game will generate revenue, the game will continue to be a PnP game. They might make a D&D online as well... but if D&D online won't get all our money, that leaves room for the PnP market to continue to produce product for our consumption. The claim that D&D will go MMO in light of this is totally ridiculous. The claim that 4e has already started to do this is equally ridiculous. DDi is an option not a necessity, the game continues to use a 3 book structure, and can still be played without any virtual aid.
My argument is that the statement that 4e will stop generating revenue that fast is very silly.
I don't know about "silly," but it is unlikely. Dave's right that the transition from 3rd to 4th hasn't been as bad as some edition changes, but people who don't like 4e have been more vocal than dissenters in the past. The guys who make this game spend a good amount of time developing it, and I have to believe that coming up with a new edition is much harder than keeping the current one going.
Even if sales took a downturn (which given the current state of the American economy, they might), I think it would take at least a year (maybe two) of that before they decide to start serious work on a new edition. I would imagine that investing in a new edition is costly, and I don't think WotC would start spending cash on a new edition while the current edition is doing this well.
If, by 5 years time, the people who have bought 4e have started to stop playing, or at least stop buying books, then you are bang on the money. They will start to release a new edition in order to reinvigorate interest. Even if they upset a small (and vocal) minority who are still playing/buying 4e books, they will need to make this decision in order to continue to generate revenue.
My argument is that the statement that 4e will stop generating revenue that fast is very silly. When making a prediction, unless you are just spouting a baseless opinion out of thin air, it is best to examine past precedent. There has never been an edition change that happened in 5 years. I think 3e only went 3.5 in that span of time, no? The 3e (both 3.0 and 3.5) had the most rocky reception of any new edition (even more rocky then 4e reception), had some serious game play issues at release, and did not start off with sales as high as 4e sales. It still managed to generate enough revenue to live for about 10 years. That suggests that 4e will probably outlive this time period. It has had less of a rocky reception then 3e, while some argue that it does have game play issues, those who actually play it consider these issues to be benefits and not detriments (whereas with 3e, those actually playing it had major problems with it), and it is selling better then 3e did at its release. All signs point to a longer lifespan. I'm not talking on the premise of preference. Whether you like 4e or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether a sizable enough majority like 4e enough for it to continue to generate revenue... a quick comparison with 3e suggests that it does, and will, for some time to come.
The question is not whether it will stop generating revenue, but whether they would get more from 5e. Ideally they want to get the most revenue in the shortest quantity of time, and once the revenue from 4e fails to equal what they think they can get from 5e it will be released.
Also, while you're using as a basis for your prediction old editions, it's hard to consider it all that relevant. The situation has changed from a decade or more ago, and honestly if anything I'd say the only relevant example as far as this goes would be 3e/3.5, and from 3e to 3.5 was three years, followed by another five. I'd say that quite probably this will have a similar lifespan to 3.5, barring them managing to find a way to squeeze money out of it faster. Which they may very well do. I sincerely doubt it will last more than eight years at the very outside.
I don't know about "silly," but it is unlikely. Dave's right that the transition from 3rd to 4th hasn't been as bad as some edition changes, but people who don't like 4e have been more vocal than dissenters in the past. The guys who make this game spend a good amount of time developing it, and I have to believe that coming up with a new edition is much harder than keeping the current one going.
Even if sales took a downturn (which given the current state of the American economy, they might), I think it would take at least a year (maybe two) of that before they decide to start serious work on a new edition. I would imagine that investing in a new edition is costly, and I don't think WotC would start spending cash on a new edition while the current edition is doing this well.
I don't know... I saw some very vocal anti 3e hate when 3e was released. In fact, I think the anti 3e hate actually seemed more prevalent then anti 4e hate.
but people who don't like 4e have been more vocal than dissenters in the past.
The Internet is now far more prolific then it was 8-10 years ago, so of course they're more vocal.
Wow. I'm sorry this game has displeased you so much that you'd ruin everyone else's fun. I hope you can find another hobby.
I have my ups and downs in my enthusiasm for RPGs and the like; D&D has always been at the forefront of my desire for games to play. I am currently at the lowest I've ever been. I'm actually so disgusted right now I am boxing up and planning to sell off a large portion of my 1E/2E collection - something I'd have vehemently fought against a year ago. For twenty years I wanted to become good enough at designing D&D to work for the creators of D&D; if they came to me now, I'd have a few unpleasant words for them beyond a "No". And it sickens me I feel this way about a game I've loved for so long.
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I think my first post came across snarkier than I had intended; 4E's is selling well right now, I agree so the chances of it lasting less than 5 years seems outwardly unlikely. However, after 5 years, it's very likely not going to play like it did at release - new PHB's/MM/DMG will probably be printed, with new/changed content. Somewhat like the recoverings/reformatting done for 2E, but I suspect with actual content change, not just new art and formatting. That will probably last say, 5 years before a new edition comes along.
I can't back the "3 year life" up with anything other than feeling. I feel like I'm seeing the same sort of things that led to the late 90's TSR bellyflop. WotC has deeper pockets, but if D&D slows down and stops making money, it's either going to be reinvented or shut down. There's also outside factors; the current economy may give the game a drumming as gamer's wallets get tighter (I know mine's going through some hard times right now). Finally, I'd just rather not go through another reinvention of D&D. This last one has ruined me.
And maybe I just need a few years siesta from gaming.
The question is not whether it will stop generating revenue, but whether they would get more from 5e. Ideally they want to get the most revenue in the shortest quantity of time, and once the revenue from 4e fails to equal what they think they can get from 5e it will be released.
Coming out with a new edition faster does not generate more revenue in the PnP industry. In some ways, the PnP industry runs backwards (when compared to other gaming industries, or at least electronic industries). When you have an edition, and you release books for it, people go out and buy books. Now, if you release a new edition, people tend to stop buying the books of the older edition. If you release new editions too fast, people tend to stop buying books period. The new books they buy are never compatible with their old ones. The best way to make money is to make one edition, and then to keep releasing new books for that one edition. As the books are all compatible with each other, more people will go out and buy more of them. Indeed, if new books are compatible with old books, there is more of a chance that someone will see the new books, buy them, and then buy old books as a result as well. So long as people keep buying those new books, the company makes more money. When you make a new edition is when people stop buying the new books because they are starting to loose interest in the mechanics of an edition. Only then will a company begin to produce a new edition. And, this is something the company wants to stave off as long as possible. If they allow this to happen to fast, the result is, as I said above, people begin to buy less of the product altogether. People want to be able to use what they buy for as long as possible, and people begin to loose faith in the gaming company if they feel their money is being wasted on products which are continuously being replaced with new products that leave their old ones incompatible.
WotC won't push to release a new edition as quick as possible. They will try and stave this edition change off for as long as possible. They will only make the next edition switch when 4e has begun to stop generating revenue, and they will want to try and avoid this scenario for as long as they can in the hopes that they can still use the new edition to maintain new revenue.
Also, while you're using as a basis for your prediction old editions, it's hard to consider it all that relevant. The situation has changed from a decade or more ago, and honestly if anything I'd say the only relevant example as far as this goes would be 3e/3.5, and from 3e to 3.5 was three years, followed by another five. I'd say that quite probably this will have a similar lifespan to 3.5, barring them managing to find a way to squeeze money out of it faster. Which they may very well do. I sincerely doubt it will last more than eight years at the very outside.
I disagree with you. One of the reasons they came out with a 3.5 instead of a 4e, back in the day, was in order to keep 3e books largely compatible with 3.5e books. The reason why is exactly as outlined above. It is in the companies best interest to stave off an edition change for as long as possible. Thus, 3e and 3.5 should be examined as one lifespan. That is 8 years. 3.5 only came out because the glaring problems of 3e forced WotC's hand. If glaring problems in 4e force WotC's hands again, they won't totally rewrite the system. They will create a 4.5 in order to try and appease those who have already bought 4e books and prolong the "backwards compatibility" (which really mark an editions life) for as long as they possibly can.
But, WotC was very smart. They won't need to do this. The reason is the 4e businesses model. The 3 core books per year model. New PHB's will give new classes and new player mechanics. New DM guides will allow for new optional rules which push the game in the direction the community is demanding (such as grittier hit point mechanics, or whatever else). New MM books will offer new monsters. Essentially, through these new core books, each year WotC gets to add in a new .something fraction to the 4e. And, they get to do so under the guise of "optional rules" (to stop the screams and complaints that happened even with the 3.5 edition switch). What is more, each of these new .something books are totally backwards compatible. Its a very smart business model... and it promises for a long 4e life.
And maybe I just need a few years siesta from gaming.
QFT. I seriously haven't been able to play MTG for years now, and I was once invited to draft with the American National team in the Worlds Tourney. It just wasn't fun for me anymore, and I couldn't afford it.
I have my ups and downs in my enthusiasm for RPGs and the like; D&D has always been at the forefront of my desire for games to play. I am currently at the lowest I've ever been. I'm actually so disgusted right now I am boxing up and planning to sell off a large portion of my 1E/2E collection - something I'd have vehemently fought against a year ago. For twenty years I wanted to become good enough at designing D&D to work for the creators of D&D; if they came to me now, I'd have a few unpleasant words for them beyond a "No". And it sickens me I feel this way about a game I've loved for so long.
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I think my first post came across snarkier than I had intended; 4E's is selling well right now, I agree so the chances of it lasting less than 5 years seems outwardly unlikely. However, after 5 years, it's very likely not going to play like it did at release - new PHB's/MM/DMG will probably be printed, with new/changed content. Somewhat like the recoverings/reformatting done for 2E, but I suspect with actual content change, not just new art and formatting. That will probably last say, 5 years before a new edition comes along.
I can't back the "3 year life" up with anything other than feeling. I feel like I'm seeing the same sort of things that led to the late 90's TSR bellyflop. WotC has deeper pockets, but if D&D slows down and stops making money, it's either going to be reinvented or shut down. There's also outside factors; the current economy may give the game a drumming as gamer's wallets get tighter (I know mine's going through some hard times right now). Finally, I'd just rather not go through another reinvention of D&D. This last one has ruined me.
And maybe I just need a few years siesta from gaming.
Seems kind of silly. Why would you sell your old 1e and 2e books, which you loved, because you don't like a new edition? Its not like a new edition changes the rules of your older books and older edition. Keep playing what you like... keep playing the older edition.
Seems kind of silly. Why would you sell your old 1e and 2e books, which you loved, because you don't like a new edition? Its not like a new edition changes the rules of your older books and older edition. Keep playing what you like... keep playing the older edition.
It's a strange sort of epiphany. I had been keeping 1E/2E stuff for completeness. Having a copy of everything that had been put out made me feel good about my hobby of choice (not to mention the jaw-droppings it inspired when new gamers would drop by, so pride was involved too). Since I won't be trying to "keep up with the Jones"/"gotta catch 'em all" syndrome anymore with 4E, keeping a bunch of 1E/2E stuff I won't be directly using seemed sort of silly. And portions of my 3E library haven't been safe from purging either.
It's a strange sort of epiphany. I had been keeping 1E/2E stuff for completeness. Having a copy of everything that had been put out made me feel good about my hobby of choice (not to mention the jaw-droppings it inspired when new gamers would drop by, so pride was involved too). Since I won't be trying to "keep up with the Jones"/"gotta catch 'em all" syndrome anymore with 4E, keeping a bunch of 1E/2E stuff I won't be directly using seemed sort of silly. And portions of my 3E library haven't been safe from purging either.
That makes sense. If you have no interest in playing the older editions, no reason to keep them.
Sorry 4e didn't turn out to your liking. I won't lie, I hope it continues to last for a long time. I really like it, so the longer it lasts, the better for me. At the same time though, once it does die, I hope the new edition will be to both our likings.
That being said, you seem to have really enjoyed 3e... so, please forgive me if am not too sympathetic to your plight. While I want you to have fun gaming (no point to wish ill on anyone), 3e did a lot to reduce my fun with D&D, and 4e has done a lot to reinvigorate that fun. You got your turn with your edition, and I think its about time I got my turn with mine. :P
I have my ups and downs in my enthusiasm for RPGs and the like; D&D has always been at the forefront of my desire for games to play. I am currently at the lowest I've ever been.
I can understand that. I'm like that about Star Wars (I hope to see a Star Wars movie I consider better than "meh" sometime before I die).
The Internet is now far more prolific then it was 8-10 years ago, so of course they're more vocal.
True, but I've found that the people I've spoken to about D&D IRL have been more vocal than the people I talked to during the 2e-->3e shift. Maybe it's just the group of friends I have.
I don't know... I saw some very vocal anti 3e hate when 3e was released. In fact, I think the anti 3e hate actually seemed more prevalent then anti 4e hate.
I think a lot of what happened on the boards was due to 2e's very long lifespan more than a general dislike of the direction the game was taking. In my experience, 3e was more of a mechanical shift, rather than a thematic shift, from 2e. It got rid of the "is that a -2 bonus, or a -2 penalty?," and the six different saving throws, while still keeping the feel of the game more or less the same.
4e changed not only the mechanics of D&D, but also changed some things people considered sacred cows (the Great Wheel, Alignment and its associated spells/class features/items, etc.), and also introduced the "Points of Light" theme. I think the resistance to 4e is not just a simple resistance to change, it's also a reaction to the reworking of the "collective" world of D&D.
We're stuck with 4E for at least 3 more years - WotC's book track will carry the game this far at least. As long as the Mayans are wrong, we're most likely to see 5 years, at which point we'll probably see a reprinting of the PHB/MM/DMG with new art & layout (maybe a few content updates as well beyond errata). If the D&D brand stays strong, it will be 8-10 years before 5E hits the shelf.
I can understand that. I'm like that about Star Wars (I hope to see a Star Wars movie I consider better than "meh" sometime before I die).
True, but I've found that the people I've spoken to about D&D IRL have been more vocal than the people I talked to during the 2e-->3e shift. Maybe it's just the group of friends I have.
I think a lot of what happened on the boards was due to 2e's very long lifespan more than a general dislike of the direction the game was taking. In my experience, 3e was more of a mechanical shift, rather than a thematic shift, from 2e. It got rid of the "is that a -2 bonus, or a -2 penalty?," and the six different saving throws, while still keeping the feel of the game more or less the same.
4e changed not only the mechanics of D&D, but also changed some things people considered sacred cows (the Great Wheel, Alignment and its associated spells/class features/items, etc.), and also introduced the "Points of Light" theme. I think the resistance to 4e is not just a simple resistance to change, it's also a reaction to the reworking of the "collective" world of D&D.
I am not saying you are wrong to feel the way you do. Certainly, depending on your perspective, some of what you say (or perhaps all of it) can be perspectivally true. But, its very much based on your perspective of the change. From what I remember, many of those who complained about 3e actually complained about it in terms of an argument very similar to the one you present about 4e. The anti 3e rhetoric was almost identical to the anti 4e rhetoric I see now. I don't think that the anti 3e rhetoric of its time shared the perspective you have of 3e change. Indeed, check out this thread from Crimson Lancers signature: http://www.gamegrene.com/node/20?fro...ts_per_page=70 . As his signature says, reading that thread gives me a spooky sense of de ja vu.
Enough of my moaning and groaning; I think this is where we stand towards 5E:
We're stuck with 4E for at least 3 more years - WotC's book track will carry the game this far at least. As long as the Mayans are wrong, we're most likely to see 5 years, at which point we'll probably see a reprinting of the PHB/MM/DMG with new art & layout (maybe a few content updates as well beyond errata). If the D&D brand stays strong, it will be 8-10 years before 5E hits the shelf.
I think these statements are all largely true... but with an added addendum: if the D&D brand not only stays strong, but actually sees an increased revenue from the 3e days, for better or worse, there is the possibility that 5e may not come around for as long as 15 years... Of course, the closer one gets to the 15 year mark, the more chance there is that one will see an edition change.
check out this thread from Crimson Lancers signature: http://www.gamegrene.com/node/20?fro...ts_per_page=70 . As his signature says, reading that thread gives me a spooky sense of de ja vu.
It does seem eerily familiar.
Back to the topic at hand, I think that 10 years would be a good run for 4e. I find it hard to imagine that WotC will be able to find high quality content to put in their yearly PHB/DMG/MM after about 5 years, and so their original plan for 4e might change. I think 15 years is unlikely.
As his signature says, reading that thread gives me a spooky sense of de ja vu.
Seriously, when I started reading that Thread, I totally thought it was just yet another Anti-4E post, as it read almost exactly like most of the Anti-4E stuff I've been seeing for months. I'd hope people would GET that, that change is what you make of it, and that this is not the end of the world, and no one will remember (most) people's complaints 6 months or so from now. :$
It does seem eerily familiar.
Back to the topic at hand, I think that 10 years would be a good run for 4e. I find it hard to imagine that WotC will be able to find high quality content to put in their yearly PHB/DMG/MM after about 5 years, and so their original plan for 4e might change. I think 15 years is unlikely.
I agree with everything said here. 15 years is as unlikely as 5 years. 5 is the lower end of the unlikely spectrum, 15 the higher, and neither is really likely to come true.
That is to say, I wonder what it will be like.
I imagine that they will stick with the core mechanic of d20+modifiers vs. target number=success, as well as the level dependent bonus progression of 4th Edition.
Beyond that, it's anyone's guess. I can't really conceive of a class and level based system that would be such a marked improvement over the current edition to justify a new iteration. Perhaps WotC will go the other way, and generalize classes into Defender, Striker, Leader and Control, allowing the Player to mix and match power sources and abilities.
Any other thoughts?
1977/78 - AD&D 1st ed comes out.
1989 - AD&D 2nd ed comes out
2000 - 3.0 comes out (3.5 in 2003 is a rules update, not a new edition)
2008 - 4e comes out.
Now, we see 11 years between the first and second edition, 11 years between 2nd and 3.0, and 8 years between 3.X and 4e.
I believe a fair expectation is that, around 2014, they'll start developing 5th edition. This will take 2-4 years from start to release, so 5th edition will come out between 2016 and 2018, giving 4e an 8-10 year life run.
I expect one of two things.
Option 1 - Incrimental Expansion> As Dirk_Radhammer suggests, 5e may see a generalization of classes into their rolls.
Each role (Striker, Defender, Controller, Leader) will have a selection of powers, perhaps 3-4 times as many as a class does at each level now.
Classes will be defined by selecting a role, picking several class benefits (from a general list) and selecting role powers.
I.E. there won't be predefined classes, just a set of "Class Features" from which you can choose 2 major and 2 minor features, to create a "class". Much like the three generic classes in the 3.X Unearthed Arcana (or was it PHB2?).
Option 2 - Backlash!> 5th edition is a backlash against the changes of WotC, bach towards earlier days. Given corporate turnover rates, in 8 years time, the entire dev team could be completely different people. Assume, for a second, that a new team heavy on old school gamers have taken over D&D development. 5th edition returns to Vancian magic, THAc0, Racial class restrictions, and 2nd ed style Multi-class/Dual Classing.
Option 3 - Furrypocalypse> The entire dev team is replaced by Furry fans, and the startaling and brillant game mechanic changes, which make 5th edition a true work of art and the single greatest pen and paper RPG ever, will be lost to the world amid the anger and backlash when the gamer community discovers that all the old races are out, and the race options in D&D 5e are Catfolk, Bunny people, Sheeples, and Wolfmen.
Show
A JOKE
Seriosuly, though, if they just reduce it to Roles and give you options, why not just print Heroes books? :P
Option 3 - Furrypocalypse> The entire dev team is replaced by Furry fans, and the startaling and brillant game mechanic changes, which make 5th edition a true work of art and the single greatest pen and paper RPG ever, will be lost to the world amid the anger and backlash when the gamer community discovers that all the old races are out, and the race options in D&D 5e are Catfolk, Bunny people, Sheeples, and Wolfmen.ShowA JOKE
8 power sources
power books coming out after 4 of each source are made
phb 1 martial 4, arcane 2 divine 2
Martial power
phb 2 divine 2, arcane 2 primal 4
arcane power
divine power
phb 3 source a 2, source b 2, source c 4
primal power
source c power
phb 4 source a 2, source b 2, source d 4
source a power
source b power
at the very least that puts us at 2011...I see WotC being able to put out aleast 1 other phb after the 8 sources they named in phb 1 are done,,,assumeing they can bs there way through atleast 1 more power source,,,
and right from my sig...Prediction for 5th edition: gencon 2017 (50th gen con...5e makes a good sales pitch)
What year is this?
:D
Ok, I want to get this out of the way before I post the actual meat of this thread. I do not like 4e, I read all three core books, played a campaign of it, and decided I was done with it, and would not be supporting 4e. That said, I'd prefer to keep this thread about 5e rather than arguing about 4e. If you disagree with my opinion of 4e, great. This isn't to change opinions.
Specifically, I'm curious as to whether they've started work on 5e yet, and any rumors related thereof. I'd also like to hear speculation on the possible forms 5e might take. Yeah, I know it's early, but it's gonna be a long wait either way, so I might as well start talking about it now.
Sorry if this has been done before, but search apparently thinks 5e is to short of a term to acknowledge.
Yea. Sure. "D&D is turning into a MMO!" No melodrama there.
(though a virtual game table and miniature set will certainly be welcomed by me).
Okay, I don't remember saying it would be a massively-multiplayer online game. I could have been wrong, could have said that without noticing. I'm not trying to bash on 4th Edition, at all. I'm merely speculating on where I hope the future might take the game.
What I speculated was, they would translate the PnP game into a networkable computer game *faithfully*, still turn-based, etc, and rather than sell paper supplements, they would add the monsters/stats/whatever content they come up with on a regular basis, into the computer D&D. The narrative would still be in the DM's hands. Basically a combination and massive improvement of the Neverwinter Nights module-creation set and the logical extension of the digital gametable and DDi.
Not an MMO, by any stretch of the imagination. Still played by 5 people or so, taking turns to move and attack, just with digital dice/miniatures/maps. How is that an MMO? Regular D&D rules, regular number of players. It's not 4e = MMO = Oh No!
Personally, I would love it if they'd put all the rules into a computer system, and update them/errata them on a constant basis. I look at the game table, decide what I want to do, move my character, select my attack, and the game takes care of the rest. Hitpoint tracking, saves, and whatnot. Do it right, and it could scale to track turn-based 3 dimensional combat, like flying or underwater stuff, which has always been an issue with tabletop PnP combat.
I think it'd be cool, in 20 years or so, just to have a rolled up sheet of flexible color LCD, basically a 4 foot by 5 foot HDTV screen, that you can roll out on your dining room table, and that's your D&D game. Your books, miniatures, game music, dice, everything. The technology is almost there, why not? Maybe touchscreen capability so players can just grab and move their minis. It would be able to track OA's, movement penalties, whatever, as the player drags the mini around to where he wants it to go. I think that'd be pretty cool.
It was called Ironclaw/Jadeclaw.
Which I own all the books for.
I was really disappointed that they didn't continue with those.
Then again, I was really disappointed that I could never get my gaming group to play them either...
Ah well.
If you present it to people with the Furryness removed and insert homebrew fantasy races, they think it's a neat and original system. If you present the actual book they dismiss it without ever reading it...
But that's neither here nor there.
It was called Ironclaw/Jadeclaw.
I actually liked that game when I played it.
That is, until my entire party tried to **** me.
Okay, I don't remember saying it would be a massively-multiplayer online game. I could have been wrong, could have said that without noticing. I'm not trying to bash on 4th Edition, at all. I'm merely speculating on where I hope the future might take the game.
What I speculated was, they would translate the PnP game into a networkable computer game *faithfully*, still turn-based, etc, and rather than sell paper supplements, they would add the monsters/stats/whatever content they come up with on a regular basis, into the computer D&D. The narrative would still be in the DM's hands. Basically a combination and massive improvement of the Neverwinter Nights module-creation set and the logical extension of the digital gametable and DDi.
Not an MMO, by any stretch of the imagination. Still played by 5 people or so, taking turns to move and attack, just with digital dice/miniatures/maps. How is that an MMO? Regular D&D rules, regular number of players. It's not 4e = MMO = Oh No!
Personally, I would love it if they'd put all the rules into a computer system, and update them/errata them on a constant basis. I look at the game table, decide what I want to do, move my character, select my attack, and the game takes care of the rest. Hitpoint tracking, saves, and whatnot. Do it right, and it could scale to track turn-based 3 dimensional combat, like flying or underwater stuff, which has always been an issue with tabletop PnP combat.
I think it'd be cool, in 20 years or so, just to have a rolled up sheet of flexible color LCD, basically a 4 foot by 5 foot HDTV screen, that you can roll out on your dining room table, and that's your D&D game. Your books, miniatures, game music, dice, everything. The technology is almost there, why not? Maybe touchscreen capability so players can just grab and move their minis. It would be able to track OA's, movement penalties, whatever, as the player drags the mini around to where he wants it to go. I think that'd be pretty cool.
Ok.... I misunderstood/read you. I honestly thought you were trying an underhanded bash.
Seeing as you are not, I'll be honest, what you are suggesting is almost here already. That is pretty much the virtual game table from DDi. I don't think that the books will every fully be abolished though. I think they will always have digital technology as an added option, and not a necessary feature... There is just to much artifact appeal in regards to the PnP book.
I'm actually curious how much of the money I pay for a D&D core set goes to paying for the writers/designers' work and the facilities in which they work, and how much goes for printing and distribution and advertising.
Which I own all the books for.
I was really disappointed that they didn't continue with those.
Then again, I was really disappointed that I could never get my gaming group to play them either...
Ah well.
If you present it to people with the Furryness removed and insert homebrew fantasy races, they think it's a neat and original system. If you present the actual book they dismiss it without ever reading it...
But that's neither here nor there.
I wonder...
DDI is probably set up to only handle D20 games... but if it CAN handle *ahem* "other systems"....
Be left out of each book leaving plenty of space to expand each book they put out will have less options than the books in 3e and 3.5 so just re envisioning what they already have will take ages. the model is very sound business wise.
See my thread on the subject.
Once they feel they cannot expand the D&D universe with new campaign settings, adventures, minis, class and race books etc. That is when 5E will become a real project.
So I would say given all the material that could be generated, as long as players keep playing 4E instead of griping and leaving the game, I would expect it to be about a decade from the relaese of the 4E books before we see 5E.
First, we present “My Monster Manual”. You begin with a database of thousands of entries. Next, you choose which monsters you wish to have in your book. Illustrations, information regarding monster ecologies, world-specific information, and player character racial traits may be included if desired. Then, simply select “Order” and your Monster Manual is printed and shipped to your door.
Next, using the videoconferencing engine from iChat, we present “iGamer”, the Virtual Tabletop for the rest of us. Utilizing the technologies behind QuickTime VR, iGamer presents a real-time three-dimensional interface, where your virtual miniature avatar or Minitar, is placed in a virtual world of the creator’s design. iGamer is compatible with landscapes designed in Bryce, Vue, and associated rendering engines. Minitars may be imported from a host of compatible applications such as Poser and DAZ Studio and may be exported as avatars for use in Second Life. To enhance your gaming experience, GarageBand has been integrated into iGamer, for the inclusion of background music and sound effects. iGamer has been optimized for use with Apple’s upcoming product releases; a 3D mouse that we have dubbed the Flying Fox (a fruit-loving flying mouse), Stereoscopic Display, and Head-Mounted Display.
Moving on, we come to the new iTunes Gaming Store. Electronic files of current gaming books from Wizards of the Coast and participating third-party publishers, as well as digital magazines Dragon and Dungeon, are encoded with proprietary DRM protection and available for purchase. You may share these files with up to five friends who subscribe to our new Mobile Me service, which recently replaced .Mac.
Files created with iPlay have been optimized for viewing on the iPhone 3G and iPod Touch.
To enhance iPlay, we have created a compilation including the iPlay Jam Pack, a section of sound effects and looping mood music for GarageBand, iPlay web templates for use in creating iWeb blogs, and iChat video effects including dungeon and tavern backgrounds. These limited-time releases are available to all Mobile Me subscribers.
For those who wish to mix elements from their iGamer sessions with their face-to-face campaigns, Minitar data may be exported into a proprietary format, for use with Desktop Factory. Minitars are then molded in plastic and shipped to your door.
Having explored social networking with Facebook and Tiny Adventures in 4e, WotC will turn to Second Life for 5e. WotC will unveil their own “sim” featuring virtual tavern where gamers could meet, above a virtual dungeon that all could explore. Avatars representing various core races and monsters will be available for purchase, along with props for weapons, equipment, and so on. Members may purchase a virtual plot of land in a nearby village, to keep their belongings. Next door, in a virtual castle, gaming rooms are equipped with tables, chairs, dice, and whiteboards for sharing maps.
5E will be started when 4E has lost traction.
Actually, that's when it'll be announced. When 4e was announced people were like "omg, when did you start on this?" and Wotc said they pretty much start at least thinking about the new edition as soon as they release the last one. That doesn't mean they have it down on paper yet, but it does mean that they are looking for inspiration.
5e has already started in the minds of the designers, even if it isn't down on paper. Multiclassing was underwhelming, and I hope they fix that in the next edition, but I certainly hope that's a far way off.
(1) Monster themed book (Draconomicon, Open Grave)
(3) Campaign-specific releases
(1) Adventurer's Vault
(1) PHB
(1) Best of Dungeon (and maybe a best of Dragon?
) (1) Classic adventure redone (Against the Giants)
(1) Monster Manual
Looking at that list, I could see a good decade worth of books if WotC taps a lot of different design space.
5e has already started in the minds of the designers, even if it isn't down on paper.
Agreed. I think WotC plans to do 4ed as well as possible, but I'd bet my Vorpal Stapler that there's a list of missteps in Slaviscek's office that he's thinking of, trying to see what he could have done better.
let me tell you what
we are all going to be dead before 5e ever comes to be
the mayans say so, well unless we find all those skulls
and mayans don't say anything about death
I do think that a "Point" based system will be worked in the next edition to give more choice on what a player can do with a character, a way to get back the free form stacking that the previous edition had. This would, however, be within the class system, and take the place of "Multiclassing" in some respects.
2- The DDi is not going to sink the current system, but might shorten it's lifespan if Wizards try to keep it in it's current form. It will not be used as it is currently in the next edition, and I would hope Wizards would realize that the character generator (Builder for those who don't know) needs to be a stand alone app, perhaps along with the DM aid software.
3- I look at the original question and think that 8 to 10 years is realistic for the life span, though I believe that Hasbro and possibly Wizards are hoping for the target of 15 years or more.
4- The next edition will be planned with more thought and have announcements far sooner than this rushed out current edition. I would hope that Wizards won't keep it secret like they did with this one.
The next edition will be planned with more thought
Yeah, they wont forget to include half-orcs in the 5e PHB1.
Yeah, they wont forget to include half-orcs in the 5e PHB1.
Actually, I would hope the bastard races would all go away, including the half Elf.
Perhaps have a rule set for half races built in, so one could have a 1/2 elf/dwarf or something.
Sorry, but the omission of the Half Orc was a wise choice. But fear not, it will be in the PHB2. If you search around, there are other threads about this...
Yep, you heard right. I'm so disgusted with 4E I'm hoping this will be the last edition of D&D - ever.
If you are so disgusted with 4E then I'd think you would really WANT a NEW edition. One that you would be happy with....
Each book will be released as packs of randomized fifteen card boosters, with the rules spread out over the whole set of 400 cards.
Cards dealing with Magic Items will be Rare cards.
Cards dealing with Character classes will be Uncommons.
Developing a new system is expensive and chews up a lot of man hours.
5 years is unreasonably short and is a waste of money from WotC's viewpoint. 15 years is probably too long. Somewhere in between is what they want.
As for random speculation, I don't think its particularly useful right now, or meaningful.
Oh, and it won't be announced until a year or so before its release, just the same as 4th edition. They wouldn't want to announce it before then.
I do have one prediction though - the elimination of static item bonuses to d20 rolls and the complete integration of the half level system. I suspect that in 5th edition, there won't be +x swords anymore. Far better to simply integrate the whole system and have d20 scaling entirely integrated into levelling.
QFT. I seriously haven't been able to play MTG for years now, and I was once invited to draft with the American National team in the Worlds Tourney. It just wasn't fun for me anymore, and I couldn't afford it.
MTG has taken a massive downturn, strangely, ever since Mark Rosewater took over as lead designer. Oh sure, Ravnica was awesome, but what about Time Spiral? Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. The gimmicks have gotten more and more tiresome. And now we've got another Multicolor block, but it's 3 color, and it's turned the game into "Where's my 3rd color of mana?". Hopefully MaRo stops doing gimmicks and gets his head out of his backside, and starts making good sets.
Assuming we haven't been enslaved by robots, I would expect the designers of 5e to be inspired by the other RPGs, video games, movies, and books popular in the early 2010s. So... as soon as somebody can tell me what's going to be popular around 2012 or so, I can get back to you on what might be new in 5e.
As to any 4e haters that are still hanging around this thread, I will say that I expect that features from 3.x that people miss in 4e (and can't be added retroactively, like a crafting system or background skills can) will likely appear in some form in 5e. Will they abandon a set of identical character mechanics to bring back the class-dependent mechanics of previous editions? It certainly is possible.
However, I expect that 5e may simply end up being a more "home-spun" version, as we tell communal tales of great heroes that rise up against our robot overlords while we huddle in fear in our worker camps...
...I expect that 5e may simply end up being a more "home-spun" version, as we tell communal tales of great heroes that rise up against our robot overlords while we huddle in fear in our worker camps...
5e = EEEEE
Evil
Electronics
Enslave
Everything on
Earth
Aaarrrggghhhh!!!
That said I think most of the current mechanics will stay. Skills may change a little, and some items maybe changed (hopefully goodbye forever to +X items), I'd also expect slightly deeper multiclassing but definately not a return to 3e's ridiculousness.
Specifically, I'm curious as to whether they've started work on 5e yet, and any rumors related thereof.
No idea, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if notebooks are at this very moment filling with ideas.
4e has already sold better then 3e did.
??
4e has been out since, what May? and it's already sold better than 3x did from 2000 to 2008?
That has actually been acknowledged/confirmed by WotC?
1- 5th edition will not be a "Classless" system. A core mechanic that is forever a part of D&D is having classes to play, instead of a free form style that is like GURPS or HERO.
I do think that a "Point" based system will be worked in the next edition to give more choice on what a player can do with a character, a way to get back the free form stacking that the previous edition had. This would, however, be within the class system, and take the place of "Multiclassing" in some respects.
.
If they saw fit to (for the most part) remove Vancian Spellcasting, an iconic function of D&D up until 2008, than what makes you think they can't remove the equally iconic function of classes?
If they saw fit to (for the most part) remove Vancian Spellcasting, an iconic function of D&D up until 2008, than what makes you think they can't remove the equally iconic function of classes?
They removed it because it was Broken. You replace Broken parts, you don't just Duct Tape them and call it a day.
They removed it because it was Broken. You replace Broken parts, you don't just Duct Tape them and call it a day.
It's funny. For something so broken, the game did just fine with it for how many years? And made how much money for both TSR and WotC?
It also became the number 1 pencil and paper RPG in the world.
For all the whining about how broken it was, it sure didn't make the game unprofitable did it?
??
4e has been out since, what May? and it's already sold better than 3x did from 2000 to 2008?
That has actually been acknowledged/confirmed by WotC?
No. 4e has sold better in the period of time it has been out then 3e did in an equal period of time since its release. Sales stats on what sold better over an 8 year period will require that we wait until we have seen 4e sell for an 8 year period. However, in the amount of time 4e has been out it has sold well enough that it has required new printings of books at a far faster rate than 3e did. This (or rather something to this effect) has been stated by WotC.
It's funny. For something so broken, the game did just fine with it for how many years? And made how much money for both TSR and WotC?
It also became the number 1 pencil and paper RPG in the world.
For all the whining about how broken it was, it sure didn't make the game unprofitable did it?
I don't remember making money off of it, so I could care less how much they made off of it. How much has Microsoft made off of the Red Ring of Death? Does that make it OK for them to sell faulty products? According to you, YES! It does!
The the vancient magic system was garbage. There is no reason to keep a sacred cow if there is a better way to do something. Just because something WAS done one way does not mean it SHOULD be. The new magic system is far more fun.
No. 4e has sold better in the period of time it has been out then 3e did in an equal period of time since its release. Sales stats on what sold better over an 8 year period will require that we wait until we have seen 4e sell for an 8 year period. However, in the amount of time 4e has been out it has sold well enough that it has required new printings of books at a far faster rate than 3e did. This (or rather something to this effect) has been stated by WotC.
Thank you for the clarification.
It will be interesting to see if this momentum can be maintained.
I don't remember making money off of it, so I could care less how much they made off of it. How much has Microsoft made off of the Red Ring of Death? Does that make it OK for them to sell faulty products? According to you, YES! It does!
My point is what YOU consider broken is not what others think as broken.
Maybe they could have, oh I don't know, fixed it instead of removing it.
Let me guess, you're a pro-4e guy right? Tell me something, did vancian spellcasting in 3.5 cause you to stop playing it?
The the vancient magic system was garbage. There is no reason to keep a sacred cow if there is a better way to do something. Just because something WAS done one way does not mean it SHOULD be. The new magic system is far more fun.
That's your opinion. Mine differs.
I find the new magic system and 4e in general far LESS fun.
My point is what YOU consider broken is not what others think as broken.
Maybe they could have, oh I don't know, fixed it instead of removing it.
Let me guess, you're a pro-4e guy right? Tell me something, did vancian spellcasting in 3.5 cause you to stop playing it?
No, I never stopped playing. However, I did stop playing Melee characters completely. 3.5 had an awesome Base System, and I especially loved their Physics Engine, as it were, but then they tossed a completely unbalanced Adventuring System on top of it. And that sucked. A lot.
And WotC obviously thought it was Broken, else they wouldn't have removed it completely.
My point is what YOU consider broken is not what others think as broken.
Maybe they could have, oh I don't know, fixed it instead of removing it.
There was a very strong movement, in WotC's customer base, to remove the vancien casting system. Every book that provided an alternative was heralded as an amazing system. Complaints about vancien casting were prolific. Reviews on vancien casting were by and large all negative. Why would they attempt to retain something that was by and large so riled against? Of course, now that 4e has been released, some have come out of the woodwork and cried out "oh no, you have changed my game." But the question is, are these some equal to or larger then the number who are extremely pleased by the change? I would claim no... I think that the larger portion of the D&D population is pleased with this removal. Current sales stats indicate that I am correct.
Let me guess, you're a pro-4e guy right? Tell me something, did vancian spellcasting in 3.5 cause you to stop playing it?
Yes, I am pro 4e. I prefer 4e to any of the other D&D systems I have played. Yes, I did stop playing 3.5 and purchasing 3.5 books, in large part because of the vancien (spelling?) spell system. I REALLY hated it. If it would have stuck around in 4e, I would not have purchased the 4e books.
I made the right decision. Luckily for Wizards they still kept a customer because I went back to MtG and started playing WoW. I've read through the books, seen how 4e works, and I hated it. I doubt if I'll ever play D&D again. Do I think it ruined the game? Yep. Do I really care? Nope. Found something else to do that's fun.
If they saw fit to (for the most part) remove Vancian Spellcasting, an iconic function of D&D up until 2008, than what makes you think they can't remove the equally iconic function of classes?
Vancian casting was a hindrince, and Wizards knew it when 3rd edition was release, and provided an alternative, the Sorcerer. The same class with different mechanics, a waste of space.
It needed to be addressed then, and that they have now addressed it in this new system doesn't mean that classes are the next to go. The backwards fire and forget system was the main reason the revamped Psionics was so popular, and why spellpoints was still broken in some ways but preferable to the alternative. (Unearthed Arcana, if you didn't know)
To go with a classless system in the future would be bringing out a system that would be like Hero and GURPS, or worse, the dot system.
I made the right decision. Luckily for Wizards they still kept a customer because I went back to MtG and started playing WoW.
WotC does not make WoW. Unless you mean the WoW TCG?
A moderator should close this silly, passive-aggressive thread.
I sustain the motion. This is the most depressing thread I've read. While I do fear the power creep, I was sort of hoping to get the chance to teach this version to my kids as a way to teach them teamwork and math skills (if my wife will let me). I know this thing can't last forever, but I'm up for enjoying it as long as it can last. As long as the economy doesn't totally tank and kill WotC along with the rest of the private market, I hope to be playing 4e for the next couple decades. If power creep does become an issue, I guess I'll only let my kids use the first set of core books.
I sustain the motion. This is the most depressing thread I've read. While I do fear the power creep, I was sort of hoping to get the chance to teach this version to my kids as a way to teach them teamwork and math skills (if my wife will let me). I know this thing can't last forever, but I'm up for enjoying it as long as it can last. As long as the economy doesn't totally tank and kill WotC along with the rest of the private market, I hope to be playing 4e for the next couple decades. If power creep does become an issue, I guess I'll only let my kids use the first set of core books.
Why close the thread? What better place for people to voice what they really feel about 4e and what their wishes are for 5e than on Wizards own message boards? As long as people are being at least semi-civil about it and not getting up in arms on either side, honest discussion is good for the hobby as a whole. I don't personally like 4e either. The sooner it goes away the happier I will be as far as D&D is concerned but if someone else wants to play it that is their business. Though I do chuckle every time I see a 4e book on the shelves at Half-Price Books. In fact 4e has really caused me to lose most of the confidence I had in the staff at Wizards of the Coast being capable game designers. I actually think that D&D would be better off if Hasbro just cut their losses after 4e flops and sold the D&D property to someone who really cares about the heritage and history of the Dungeons and Dragons game. You don't have to agree with what I say I just say it because I want Wizard's to know that I am not happy with their product and they used to be my favorite game company.
Charles
Why close the thread? What better place for people to voice what they really feel about 4e and what their wishes are for 5e than on Wizards own message boards? As long as people are being at least semi-civil about it and not getting up in arms on either side, honest discussion is good for the hobby as a whole.
I agree, I started this thread to see hear rumors, peoples opinions, and guesses. I'm enjoying reading this when I get the time, and I don't think anyone in the thread has been particularly rude. There's no reason to even suggest closing the thread, anyways it's not like I posted this in the long place. This is exactly the kind of thing this forum is for.
Why close the thread? What better place for people to voice what they really feel about 4e and what their wishes are for 5e than on Wizards own message boards? As long as people are being at least semi-civil about it and not getting up in arms on either side, honest discussion is good for the hobby as a whole. I don't personally like 4e either. The sooner it goes away the happier I will be as far as D&D is concerned but if someone else wants to play it that is their business. Though I do chuckle every time I see a 4e book on the shelves at Half-Price Books. In fact 4e has really caused me to lose most of the confidence I had in the staff at Wizards of the Coast being capable game designers. I actually think that D&D would be better off if Hasbro just cut their losses after 4e flops and sold the D&D property to someone who really cares about the heritage and history of the Dungeons and Dragons game. You don't have to agree with what I say I just say it because I want Wizard's to know that I am not happy with their product and they used to be my favorite game company.
Charles
I pretty much agree with everything you said.
I will disagree with you about this statement though..
In fact 4e has really caused me to lose most of the confidence I had in the staff at Wizards of the Coast being capable game designers.
I think they are capable and talented. My problem is that they have used that talent and creativity to create a game that I don't like. It's as simple as that. In fact, I think they are so capable and talented that they could have, if they so chose to, stayed with 3.5, fixed the system (like Paizo is attempting to do) and still created a fun, profitable game.
I understand the economics of them needing to create a whole new edition, I just don't agree with their deisgn philosophy. I don't like the direction they have taken the game.
And I agree with Stormonu above, I'd rather it died with 3x than become the garbage hole (my opinion folks, no need to get all riled up over my opinion) that 4e is.
You see, I WANT to support WotC. I really do. When I look at my bookshelves and see the 70+ 3x books/supplements and around 3000 D&D Miniatures, I get kinda bummed out because I know that I will no longer be able to support a company that makes a game that I do not like.
I sustain the motion. This is the most depressing thread I've read. While I do fear the power creep, I was sort of hoping to get the chance to teach this version to my kids as a way to teach them teamwork and math skills (if my wife will let me).
That's an excellent idea. But why do it with 4e? Certainly you could do that with any iteration of D&D. In fact, previous editions of D&D involve using more math than 4e.
Does Ghendar always post in 3's?
Yes :P
EDIT - guess not :P :P
No, I never stopped playing. However, I did stop playing Melee characters completely. 3.5 had an awesome Base System, and I especially loved their Physics Engine, as it were, but then they tossed a completely unbalanced Adventuring System on top of it. And that sucked. A lot.
But didn't suck so much that the game was a failure. In fact, just the opposite was true. I've heard others make the same statements. They say, "I hated (insert feature of 3x you didn't like) and am glad it's gone." And the hatred is/was palpable. However, not so palpable that it caused them to stop playing the game. That kind of attitude perplexes me. If you hate something so vehemently, why are you torturing yourself by continuing to play it?
And WotC obviously thought it was Broken, else they wouldn't have removed it completely.
I think this is wrong. I don't believe WotC believed it was broken, the fan base apparently did and WotC acted on that fan feedback. There's a difference.
From what I've been told, D&D player's dissatisfaction with vancian spellcasting is not a new issue. It's been around for years, going back to 2E and maybe even further back than that. My question is, if that's true and I believe it is, then why choose now to get rid of it. Why not jettison it in 2000 when 3.0 was released? It worked for 30+ years. Why get rid of it now?
I would claim no... I think that the larger portion of the D&D population is pleased with this removal. Current sales stats indicate that I am correct.
I don't think you can base the sales stats only on the removal of vancian spellcasting. There's more to it than that.
Yes, I am pro 4e. I prefer 4e to any of the other D&D systems I have played. Yes, I did stop playing 3.5 and purchasing 3.5 books, in large part because of the vancien (spelling?) spell system. I REALLY hated it. If it would have stuck around in 4e, I would not have purchased the 4e books.
Good for you. You stopped playing a system you didn't like. Kinda like me with 4e.
This is why I don't get the constant moaning, yes your edition is dead, but its not like other people haven't gone through it before. Your edition killed a previous one too, get over it.
But didn't suck so much that the game was a failure. In fact, just the opposite was true. I've heard others make the same statements. They say, "I hated (insert feature of 3x you didn't like) and am glad it's gone." And the hatred is/was palpable. However, not so palpable that it caused them to stop playing the game. That kind of attitude perplexes me. If you hate something so vehemently, why are you torturing yourself by continuing to play it?
Because my second favorite character to play is the guy who makes things explode simply by thinking about it. I played a Warmage most of the time, and it was fun.
I think this is wrong. I don't believe WotC believed it was broken, the fan base apparently did and WotC acted on that fan feedback. There's a difference.
From what I've been told, D&D player's dissatisfaction with vancian spellcasting is not a new issue. It's been around for years, going back to 2E and maybe even further back than that. My question is, if that's true and I believe it is, then why choose now to get rid of it. Why not jettison it in 2000 when 3.0 was released? It worked for 30+ years. Why get rid of it now?
Personally, I believe they were still experimenting with alternate casting options (hence the many subsystems and Unearthed Arcana experiments). I think they just hadn't come up with a plausible solution yet.
Meh. 3.xers got 8 years with a system they liked, I endured years without being able to get gamers to play a system I liked when 3e killed my D&D. I enjoy 4e and I'd say it's my turn.
Did you at least try 3e when it came out?
And just so you know, I've been playing since the Menzter red basic set so I know about edition changes.
This is why I don't get the constant moaning, yes your edition is dead, but its not like other people haven't gone through it before. Your edition killed a previous one too, get over it.
Sounds like I'm not the only one who needs to "get over it". You're still feeling the sting 8 years later.
...3e killed my D&D. I enjoy 4e and I'd say it's my turn... Your edition killed a previous one too, get over it.
For the record, 2e killed "my" D&D, so I stuck with 1e until 3e won me over. We are both leap-grognards, just on different sides of the even/odd fence.
Umm, they CAN'T simplify it anymore than they already have.
Wrong!
4.5E
There will be 3 levels, Heroic, Paragon and Epic
All Dice are replaced by coin tosses
You always flip two coins at epic level and add the results
Typically:
Defenders have 4hp +1 at epic
Strikers have 3hp +1 at paragon
Controllers have 2hp +1 at epic
You start the game with 2 at will, 1 encounter and 1 Daily power
You gain 1 extra encounter and daily power each level
When you gain a level, your old powers generaly improve in one of three ways
1: You toss an extra coin
2: The area of effect or number of targets increases by 1
3: You stun your target
Everything else is pretty much the same except:
You resolve everything with coin tosses
Everything is square.
[/lamejoke]
all fanbases are unpleasable, and act as such.
"...of Hackmaster?"
Yep, you heard right. I'm so disgusted with 4E I'm hoping this will be the last edition of D&D - ever.
You're that guy everyone's talking about--the one who cut off his nose to spite his face!
Love it or hate it, I can't imagine wanting DnD to die after 4e. It's downright ridiculous. If anything, I would want the game to continue on well after a bad edition, if only to hold hope that new designers and developers wash away all the stuff I hated.
You're that guy everyone's talking about--the one who cut off his nose to spite his face!
Love it or hate it, I can't imagine wanting DnD to die after 4e. It's downright ridiculous. If anything, I would want the game to continue on well after a bad edition, if only to hold hope that new designers and developers wash away all the stuff I hated.
I want D&D about as dead as chess. In other words, it still exists, but its not being changed any more (except by a fringe or two). OSRIC is still generating things for 1E/2E, we have OGL for 3E and the GSL for 4E. We now have what, 7 versions of the game?
oD&D, BECM, 1E, 2E, Skills & Powers, 3E, 4E & 5th age.
If you can't find a version of D&D you like now, I doubt you ever will. Personally, rather than generating new versions, I'd just like to see groups pick an existing version and play it.
I want D&D about as dead as chess. In other words, it still exists, but its not being changed any more (except by a fringe or two).
I take it that you aren't aware that a new edition of the official rules of chess was just published 5 or so years ago. :P
Wrong!
4.5E
There will be 3 levels, Heroic, Paragon and Epic
All Dice are replaced by coin tosses
You always flip two coins at epic level and add the results
Typically:
Defenders have 4hp +1 at epic
Strikers have 3hp +1 at paragon
Controllers have 2hp +1 at epic
You start the game with 2 at will, 1 encounter and 1 Daily power
You gain 1 extra encounter and daily power each level
When you gain a level, your old powers generaly improve in one of three ways
1: You toss an extra coin
2: The area of effect or number of targets increases by 1
3: You stun your target
Everything else is pretty much the same except:
You resolve everything with coin tosses
Everything is square.
[/lamejoke]
LOL. I like lame jokes. :D
As far as things go I hate 4e for many reasons, but I'm really intrigued by people's naivete' when they think there won't be any 4.5e. Maybe it won't be called like that, but something like "new and improved (and more shiny) PHB, DMG and MM".
Anyway, I totally agree with Ghendar, I feel DnD should either die, or at least be made into a system that is both fun and cool.
In 3.5 many prestige classes were overpowered (and there were far too many) but their equivalent in 4e are pathetic by comparison. Monsters have too many hp and I find it a real bore to fight.
Sure, they also took some good steps towards improving the game (monster formats for example)...but overall it's a poor RPG.
I just wish they (WotC) would take the best of "EVERY" edition of DnD, add something new, and finally make an excellent game that doesn't need tons of errata, FAQs, etc.
Giventhe state of things, I give the game a very short lifespan. DDI will be a big failure, except maybe for Dragon and Dungeon (but this is just my opinion, no flaming needed ;) ). And I said this only because in 2006, when asked about the 4th edition I said 2008, tops, and everyone answered me saying "no, at least 2010 dude!!!", well...guess who was right....
Anyway, 5th Edition, June 2012 (hopefully not a Monopoly-like game, but you never know!)
I take it that you aren't aware that a new edition of the official rules of chess was just published 5 or so years ago. :P
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm really intrigued by people's naivete' when they think there won't be any 4.5e.
I don't think it is being naive, but insistence that some of the broken side rules "Are not that bad" compared to the rest of the rule set. They are mistaken.
The Magical Items being Nerfed as they are and the silly wealth management concerning them, along with the assumed "pick and choose" method for the parcel system to populate treasure on monsters, it has a lot to be fixed to be usable without heavy house ruling.
In 3.5 many prestige classes were overpowered (and there were far too many) but their equivalent in 4e are pathetic by comparison. Monsters have too many hp and I find it a real bore to fight.
The prestige classes were powerful, but also weak when you consider that the character replaced a core class with it. The PP and ED are not a replacement, in my mind, but a branch of chooses within the class already taken. In this respect, it is a nice way to individualize and branch out the 8 core classes. I don't see any good way, however, to replace the Prestige classes as they were in the previous edition. I expect some of the stronger ones, like the Shadow Dancer and the Arcane Archer, will be full core classes at some point. I am really hoping for this for the Pyrokinesist.
Giventhe state of things, I give the game a very short lifespan. DDI will be a big failure, except maybe for Dragon and Dungeon (but this is just my opinion, no flaming needed ;) ). And I said this only because in 2006, when asked about the 4th edition I said 2008, tops, and everyone answered me saying "no, at least 2010 dude!!!", well...guess who was right....
Anyway, 5th Edition, June 2012 (hopefully not a Monopoly-like game, but you never know!)
OK, I think that the new edition (4th) will be successful. The new combat is so much better than the rules heavy, cumbersome rules for the previous edition. The elimination of the Vancian casting mold should have been done in the previous edition, and the fact that it is finally gone is a good incentive to switch.
Unlike the previous edition, this new edition has an eye for the future, and won't unravel as the previous did, nor will it do so nearly as fast if somehow it does unravel like the previous edition. It has a long shelf life.
I think that 5th edition is a long way down the road, and any development now will be scraped by the time it is "needed."
I do agree that DDi will not be the cash cow that Hasbro (Wizards?) thinks that it will be. If they keep the price down instead of charging a separate fee for the "tools" that are still to come with the mags and "Bonus" little programs that use to be free being a separate fee.
I do think, however, that if Hasbro is aggressive in suing other publishers of "electronic aids," like CMP or Lone Wolf, and the character "builder" (I still think this is a stupid name) becomes the only way to make characters on the puter, that enough will pay the ransom to keep it afloat.
I don't think 15 years is anywhere near realistic. Most other RP games I've seen will do a new version every 3-5 years. D&D has been the only one I've seen where everyone dreads a new edition and edition changes are so slow. My current favorite, L5R, is on 3.5 itself and the 1st edition only came out in '99.
Interesting but untrue. l5r came out in 95, and arguably before that if you know anything about the guys who made it. As for shelf life L5R has pretty much kept up with d20 edition changes. Just a bit faster.
It's 2008 we have 4th, in 2003 we had 3.5 in 2000 we had 3.0, in 1989 we had second edition--but even there the reality is that we had 4th edition rules cyclopedia, plus the skills and powers set in between second and third, we can call those hybrid sets but they were the direction that 3e took us so I'd say they were different enough to be considered editions.
As for the end of the line, probably not, but I suspect that they will change the name before they reach #6. When you start putting big numbers up like that the name gets unwieldly.
The Magical Items being Nerfed as they are and the silly wealth management concerning them, along with the assumed "pick and choose" method for the parcel system to populate treasure on monsters, it has a lot to be fixed to be usable without heavy house ruling.
Total agreement. The way wealth is explained and the parcel system make it obnoxious and leads back to the old AD&D problem "....why didn't the Paladin we killed use the +5 Holy avenger he had in his treasure?"
The prestige classes were powerful, but also weak when you consider that the character replaced a core class with it.
Their failure was one of the purposes of bringing in a new edition I feel. The whole idea of prestige classes was to excite players about higher levels but they brought so little in actual gameplay and really added up to a hill of beans that most people avoided ninety percent of them. The paragon levels and epic levels bring a little more to playability and do excite a bit more than the old prestige classes
OK, I think that the new edition (4th) will be successful. The new combat is so much better than the rules heavy, cumbersome rules for the previous edition.
yeah they went back to the 2nd edition combat rules which ended up requiring a lot of house rules to make people happy (ever wonder why AoO exist look no further than the home games where people were getting cremated by spellcasters and felt that they should get a free attack against them if they cast. Everyone used that rule.) This combat system lacks variety interest or the ability to cover a wider variety of combat situations. This may lead to more roleplaying but I suspect it will also lead to more arguments. That's one reason I suspect 4.5 or 5e will be a revision of the combat rules if nothing else
The elimination of the Vancian casting mold should have been done in the previous edition, and the fact that it is finally gone is a good incentive to switch.
First off I wish people wuld stop using the term Vancian, while Vance popularized that type of casting, and it was stolen by Gygax, he was not the first person to establish spell amnesia. And the negativity associated with the term really does a disservice to Jack Vance, most of his stories were good and it was like two or three out of fifty novels that even used that particular spell casting method. Several previous writers used it in lesser or greater degrees. Second, Vancian (your term) spells are a lot easier to handle from the rules side of things than most other forms of magic used at the time in Fantasy, and they are a lot less cumbersome than other rules systems forms of magic. They are also better explained than other systems. On a whole Vancian spells are a lot easier to use even if you don't agree with that particular mechanic. Third, everyone is vancian now not just spellcasters. Call it what you will but most every character in 4E is vancian. They didn't remove Vancian spellcasters they made everyone Vancian to some degree. You have daily's which are used once then apparently you forget how to do them, encounter which again you use once and it takes you an hour or two to remember and then you have the others which are refreshed automatically. I suspect that too will change in 5e. As they look at the powers and realize there is not much you can do except add new character races and classes to change up things unless you have power creep supercede current powers.
Unlike the previous edition, this new edition has an eye for the future, and won't unravel as the previous did, nor will it do so nearly as fast if somehow it does unravel like the previous edition. It has a long shelf life.
If they follow previous edition patterns I expect the next edition to be 4.5 in 2011. even if they don't the next edition will be out by 2013. As for not unraveling, well considering it had its first errata before the release of the first book, I think it may have already unraveled. Again 5e will probably take many of the winning concepts of 3.5 and mix them with 4e. For instance they will put a numerical limit on enemy combatants to prevent bum rush tactics while preserving the strengths of the new XP mechanic (which by the way can easily replace 3.5 mechanic). They will probably unconsolidate some of the skills, remove the automatic +5 bump and probably use some of the Indy RPG stuff to develop a slightly better skill system. OK that's wishful thinking.
A strking difference between 3.5 and 4e is the method of handling skills and I never thought either did a good job of it, but both are better than second edition proficiencies. Perhaps they will finally learn from all three and also pay attention to the more popular newer Indie games that show how a skill system can really be more interactive. heck even Serenity has a better skill system.
I don't think it is being naive, but insistence that some of the broken side rules "Are not that bad" compared to the rest of the rule set. They are mistaken.
Sorry but that is many people seem to disagree with you (just check the forums). And besides my point was "just because WotC says there won't be a 4.5e it doesn't mean it will not be there".
The prestige classes were powerful, but also weak when you consider that the character replaced a core class with it.
Just check the "Elementalist". the "Pale Master", the "Wanderer of the Wastes (from Sandstorm) to have an idea of what I mean from "really powerful". And the sacrifices to take those PrC were really small in comparison with the benefits gained.
OK, I think that the new edition (4th) will be successful. The new combat is so much better than the rules heavy, cumbersome rules for the previous edition. The elimination of the Vancian casting mold should have been done in the previous edition, and the fact that it is finally gone is a good incentive to switch.
I agree that there have been some improvements to the game, but there were also many wrong steps too IMO
Unlike the previous edition, this new edition has an eye for the future, and won't unravel as the previous did, nor will it do so nearly as fast if somehow it does unravel like the previous edition. It has a long shelf life.
Sorry but I don't agree. The 3.5e had an eye for the future. Just look at the amount of manuals released. They added loads of alternate classes, prestige classes, and they could have put another couple of years in that edition if they wanted.
The 4th edition, as set now, seems to have a very limited lifespan.
I think that 5th edition is a long way down the road, and any development now will be scraped by the time it is "needed."
... if Hasbro is aggressive in suing other publishers of "electronic aids," like CMP or Lone Wolf, and the character "builder" (I still think this is a stupid name) becomes the only way to make characters on the puter, that enough will pay the ransom to keep it afloat.
Actually alienating 3rd parties is a bad idea. Just imagine how much more life Malhavoc Press, Green Ronin, Goodman Games, Mongoose Publishing, etc, etc, etc (and believe me, the list is very, very long) have put in the d20 system. The new GLS (or whatever) is just another step in the wrong direction....and already the real _big_ 3rd paries names have refused to bow to its restrictiveness.
That all comes into play for the 4th ed lifespan too. And beleive me, these companies are not as stupid as you might think to get easily sued just to fatten WotC belly.
1st edition: 15 years
2nd edition: 11 years
3rd edition: 8 years
4th edition: ???
If maths had anything to do with it, it would be 6 years.
I keep thinking 5. But 6 makes sense. think about it: 6 takes us to 2014. that's still in a while.
anyways, i mean, the first thing i thought when 4e got out is: i wonder how long until 5e (even though I do absolutely love 4e)
8-10 years seems to be about the benchmark for a D&D edition's life. 2e lasted for 11 years, but that period was extended by TSR's collapse. Without that, 3e would have appeared maybe two years before it did. Since 2e was being discussed as early as 1985, it's possible that the ownership issues affecting TSR at the time delayed it.
WotC didn't go through any such dramas between 2000 and 2008. Therefore, I see the 'short' length of 3e due not to a drastically shrinking edition lifespan, but to it being allowed to run its time unimpeded. If the pattern holds, we should expect 5e around 2016.
As for 5e itself, while it's futile to speculate what it'll be like, there are some things we can expect to carry over. Power sources and roles are here to stay. So are fortitude, reflex and will defences. Skills and feats are also a permanent fixture. Features from previous editions that won't be back include ability damage, level drain, and frequent 'save or suck' rolls.
First off I wish people would stop using the term Vancian, while Vance popularized that type of casting, and it was stolen by Gygax, he was not the first person to establish spell amnesia. And the negativity associated with the term really does a disservice to Jack Vance, most of his stories were good and it was like two or three out of fifty novels that even used that particular spell casting method. Several previous writers used it in lesser or greater degrees. Second, Vancian (your term) spells are a lot easier to handle from the rules side of things than most other forms of magic used at the time in Fantasy, and they are a lot less cumbersome than other rules systems forms of magic. They are also better explained than other systems. On a whole Vancian spells are a lot easier to use even if you don't agree with that particular mechanic. Third, everyone is vancian now not just spell casters. Call it what you will but most every character in 4E is vancian. They didn't remove Vancian spell casters they made everyone Vancian to some degree. You have daily's which are used once then apparently you forget how to do them, encounter which again you use once and it takes you an hour or two to remember and then you have the others which are refreshed automatically. I suspect that too will change in 5e. As they look at the powers and realize there is not much you can do except add new character races and classes to change up things unless you have power creep supersede current powers.
The "fire and forget" system was never a good mechanic. It made the wizards weak at lower levels (Oh, out of spells, gotta beat them with this stick) and became a force that was simply out powering the rest of the classes at higher levels later on.
I understand the history behind it. It is what Merlin would have to go though, and is a troupe that bound magic into an event instead of being used as a talent.
My point has been that Wizards knew it was bad, and didn't kill it the first time (3rd edition) as it was a 'sacred cow' and instead cloned the wizard and gave a different mechanic, and called it a sorcerer.
Spells are easier to use for those that have been playing for a long time, but the "newbie" still had to flip though pages and try and decipher the different aspects of the Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Ranger/Paladin/Bard as well as keep separate lists for multiclass characters. Having one huge spell list has it's problems as well, as every spell is the same and there is no real flare or differencing aspect between the classes, especially the wizard/sorcerer.
I think the new edition takes care of this quite nicely.
Let's see
1st edition: 15 years
2nd edition: 11 years
3rd edition: 8 years
4th edition: ???
If maths had anything to do with it, it would be 6 years.
I keep thinking 5. But 6 makes sense. think about it: 6 takes us to 2014. that's still in a while.
anyways, i mean, the first thing i thought when 4e got out is: i wonder how long until 5e (even though I do absolutely love 4e)
I am going to disagree with your math, some people may disagree with my math, but you'll at least see where we differ.
While you can find this listed in wikipedia remember it is not all exactly correct, I'm trying to use all available sources for this.
1st edition did not exist when the game first came out. It existed right around 77. The true first edition came out in 74 making the next edition in 77 (basic set) That was also the year they created AD&D I believe so there were two simultaneous editions. Then basic set had another revision, which changed the game enough to be considered an edition change in 81 while AD&D stayed the same. Then there were other sets like the immortal set which can be considered just splat books, but they were really whole editions giving the full basic rules including some changes in the basic game, mostly to allow for the changes in the set. I think the numbers are wrong for wikipedia. i think it was 1 every two years until 83-89. Then came 2nd edition AD&D plus a new rules revision for D&D, that was in 89 and 91. 2000 of course was 3rd edition, but in between was the skills and powers edition, which if anyone played knows it was the precursor to 3rd edition. Then 3rd edition, and 3.5. And yes they were two different editions. They may have looked similar but there were enough rules changes to make it an edition change. Now in 2008 4th edition.
So if you look at it that way there were 8-10 editions in under forty years. That averages out to an edition every 4-5 years. So by that estimate 3.5 was early and 4th was on time.
The "fire and forget" system was never a good mechanic. My point has been that Wizards knew it was bad, and didn't kill it the first time (3rd edition) as it was a 'sacred cow' and instead cloned the wizard and gave a different mechanic, and called it a sorcerer.
. Having one huge spell list has it's problems as well, as every spell is the same and there is no real flare or differencing aspect between the classes, especially the wizard/sorcerer.
I think the new edition takes care of this quite nicely.
[Scratches head] Every spell the same....OK you knew that was a blanket statement when you made it and you also knew that it was untrue.
You also know that if that were true then the spell lists of 4e would also be just as much the same as previous editions (I have heard arguments that there is more spell conformity in this edition, but that is an argument I am not prepared to make since I have not spent enought time staring at the wizards spells to make that kind of declaration)
As for spell amnesia, now every class has "ability" amnesia. Powers really are synonymous with spells. And daily powers are "forgotten" after use them once. The thing about feats was they generally could be reused, not so with powers.
No real flare or differencing aspect between classes??? So there is no difference between paladin and wizard???
As for flare this is where you and I agree and disagree. I love the powers in 4e. They are my second favorite addition to this game since basic set, skills being the first. My only problem with them is that they supercede class abilities and feats when they should work in combnation with them. And as I have always felt there should be some type of character buildup with the powers. I do look to video games a little for this, combo moves and such, but the first combo moves were perfected on the battlefield by real warriors. That's why fencing manuals have maneuvre names, and old combat manuals have combat specific terms for strike placement and strength for setup. But really every class should have had something iterative and incremental. And I always thought that proficiency should also lend to this itirative incremental attack. Like the seven swans attack using the pole axe. It requires each successive attack to hit the target whether or not it does damage, with the last being the most powerful and the most likely to cut into an opponent.
The real problem with any spellcaster in any edition has been that it is too much a fantasy icon. Sure the lowly barbarian aka C_nan can defeat the masses but there was always this mortality to him. Spellcasters are given credit for being army destroyer and world eaters, and incredibly powerful in most fantsay novels so trying to translate that powerful image to a class that was balanced with other class has always been difficult and IMO almost pointless unless you are willing to let them be super powerful at high levels.
But again there are many things I could have fixed in 3rd edition that came out in 4th parallel in quality and problems.
My 5e speculation is based upon the idea that somewhere someone is going to figure out that the cool things they put into 4e could have been great fixes for 3e and thats when they'll hybrid.
A power or stat bonus every odd level.
Stats will no longer be 3 to 18 but purely -4 to +4.
Class choice will be reduced to role and power source, PHB covering arcane and martial and the rest being introduced slowly; these wll simply define power choices. Race may be handled the same.
HP will be abandoned for a decent wound system once invented.
[Scratches head] Every spell the same....OK you knew that was a blanket statement when you made it and you also knew that it was untrue.
You also know that if that were true then the spell lists of 4e would also be just as much the same as previous editions (I have heard arguments that there is more spell conformity in this edition, but that is an argument I am not prepared to make since I have not spent enought time staring at the wizards spells to make that kind of declaration)
The spells are listed with the class, instead of a big thick pad of spells for every class in the book. You won't see a spell entry that has Wizard3/Sorcerer4/Bard2 anymore. I liked the spell list myself, it was familiar, but I see the advantage of the new format.
As for spell amnesia, now every class has "ability" amnesia. Powers really are synonymous with spells. And daily powers are "forgotten" after use them once. The thing about feats was they generally could be reused, not so with powers.
I think of some of these powers as the replacement of the Feats that you talk about. Most of the feats we felt obligated to get in the previous edition has turned into class powers. That two weapon fighting has turned into Ranger powers (why the ranger, huh?) is a good example.
No real flare or differencing aspect between classes??? So there is no difference between paladin and wizard???
As for flare this is where you and I agree and disagree. I love the powers in 4e. They are my second favorite addition to this game since basic set, skills being the first. My only problem with them is that they supersede class abilities and feats when they should work in combination with them. And as I have always felt there should be some type of character buildup with the powers.
My point is that the Wizard and the Sorcerer was the SAME CLASS with different mechanics. WotC knew from the beginning that 'Fire and forget' was broken. As I mention above, some of the feats became class powers in this new edition.
But again there are many things I could have fixed in 3rd edition that came out in 4th parallel in quality and problems.
My 5e speculation is based upon the idea that somewhere someone is going to figure out that the cool things they put into 4e could have been great fixes for 3e and thats when they'll hybrid.
5e will be nothing like the previous first three.
My biggest disappointment right now is Tumble. It is an encounter power now. What?
Maybe I'd like to see something along the lines of "power ranks," (like 3e-style skill ranks) with maximum power ranks being equal to level or something. For instance, maybe "teleport 8" could allow you to do a short, dimension door-type jaunt, "teleport 13" would allow transplanar teleportation, etc. No one can just cherrypick a high-powered ability that is completely alien to everything they've learned before -- you have to build from the ground up.
Let's see
1st edition: 15 years
2nd edition: 11 years
3rd edition: 8 years
4th edition: ???
If maths had anything to do with it, it would be 6 years.
sounds like a solid theory...
For those who dont like 4E oh well go back to playing 3.5 or sooner if you must. I am thinking these folks dont like it because they cant have a lvl 10 character that can take on a dragon solo and walk away with the dragon horde in the 10 bags of holding that they own. 4E keeps you power gamers who ruin a good session in line. Does it hurt your character to think now that he might die?:D
well I am not going to quote anyone because there are a few here that, in my opinion could use a good smack..
For those who dont like 4E oh well go back to playing 3.5 or sooner if you must. I am thinking these folks dont like it because they cant have a lvl 10 character that can take on a dragon solo and walk away with the dragon horde in the 10 bags of holding that they own. 4E keeps you power gamers who ruin a good session in line. Does it hurt your character to think now that he might die?:D
Oh, great. Yet another pointless and ignorant post, but this time from the Pro-4E side. How embarrassing.
As a Power Gamer who enjoyed 3.5 while it lasted, and who now enjoys Power Gaming in 4E, I'd actually ask you to delete that post if you have even a shred of self-respect, else you come off like a total n00b.
One thing I'd like to see in 5e would be abilities depending on having lower-level foundational abilities, not just being the right level. For instance, to shift to another plane, you need to know how to do some lower-level teleportation first, not just to be the right level and have the right class, knowledge, or rituals.
Maybe I'd like to see something along the lines of "power ranks," (like 3e-style skill ranks) with maximum power ranks being equal to level or something. For instance, maybe "teleport 8" could allow you to do a short, dimension door-type jaunt, "teleport 13" would allow transplanar teleportation, etc. No one can just cherrypick a high-powered ability that is completely alien to everything they've learned before -- you have to build from the ground up.
The Book of the Nine Swords had a system quite like that, some of the higher level powers required you to know from one to several other powers of the same school. That's a system I've always liked, and I'm currently house ruling a similar system for rituals in my 4E games, it also gives some use to the different ritual categorization.
Example: (Fighter)
Cleave @ 11th level deal str damage to up to two adjasent targets
Tide of Iron @ 11th level you can use this attack at the end of a charge inplace of a basic attack
Sure Strike @ 11th level you can add your Str modfire to damage
Reaping Strike @ 11th level you can add +1 per tire to the damage on a miss
(Mage)
Cloud of Daggers @ 11th level it lasts 2 rounds
Magic Missle @ 11th ;eve; you can target a second person within 5 sq
Ray of Frost @ 11th level it becomes save ends
Scorching Burst @ 11th level on a hit add 2 onging fire save ends
Thunderwave @ 11th level targets enimies only