Obviously this is just a question on a survey, so it's no proof that they're planning on doing something like this. However, its presence indicates that they might be willing to consider arranging such a feature. Cool idea, but it sounds expensive. :P
Also, didn't World of Warcraft offer a service like this at some point?
As to Warcrack, I am unsure. They might of.
Expensive in terms of ink/paper yes. there are a number of websites that actually give ways to make 3D models from regular printings.
Seriously? Link?
Seriously? Link?
I'm away from my links at the moment, when I get to them I will post 'em.
WoW sculps
The company that did it for WoW implemented a raffle system because it's the only way they could keep the orders at a level that matched their production capacity.
3D printers
It would be a huge startup cost (for the 3-D printers), but it's something that would probably be easier if they built in the capability to start instead of trying to modify the software later on to accomodate.
There would be a start up cost to be sure, but the cost of technology is likely substantially less today than it was when WoW offered it as a service. It's also likely to be faster and more efficient.
Anybody remember this jaw-dropper from another thread on this board. I know that it got a lot of folks talking about the realistic potential for custom 3d miniatures.
Use the visualizer to create a model, then WotC prints it and mails it to you? I know lots of people who would easily pay a hundred bucks a pop for PC and Campaign BBEG models. If they can get the per unit cost down to where that's profitable, it'd be pretty cool.
Then there is the fact that these printers are exceedingly expensive ($10,000+ each).
Unless Wizards instigates a limit of 1 mini/DDI account/6-12 month window, the sheer demand for these mini's would get out of hand.... and thats even assuming that they can even make these mini's a reasonable 20$-30$ each (given costs associated with 3D printing).
WotC can't even get their character visualizer to work right and they've been working on it for years. Don't get your hopes up that they're going to mail you a 3D model of your character.
WotC can't even get their character visualizer to work right and they've been working on it for years. Don't get your hopes up that they're going to mail you a 3D model of your character.
A year, not years. They only started working on it around January of 2008(I might be a month or two off).
WotC can't even get their character visualizer to work right and they've been working on it for years. Don't get your hopes up that they're going to mail you a 3D model of your character.
Your definition of years is amazing.
A year, not years. They only started working on it around January of 2008(I might be a month or two off).
I'm assuming that they didn't wait until the last minute to start their digital products before developing them for release in June 2008. If I'm wrong, that says more about their poor project planning than it does about me.
I'm assuming that they didn't wait until the last minute to start their digital products before developing them for release in June 2008. If I'm wrong, that says more about their poor project planning than it does about me.
Quote from one of the original devs regarding the D&Di time table:
When I originally joined the project though I was given a 6 month time frame to full release, 3 months to beta, and by the way, that includes the time I could spend hiring a staff.
I never said that it had anything to do with you(not sure why you would think that I did). All this shows however is that WotC had a poor understanding of what is reasonable in software at the beginning of D&Di.....a really poor understanding.
Yeah, I took that survey too. Remembered that bit. Considering we're looking at at likely a couple years off before the visualizer is really ready to go, and the gametable... hhmmm. The cost of 3d printing is likely to drop precipitously by then.
Use the visualizer to create a model, then WotC prints it and mails it to you? I know lots of people who would easily pay a hundred bucks a pop for PC and Campaign BBEG models. If they can get the per unit cost down to where that's profitable, it'd be pretty cool.
Agreed, that would rock! Especially custom BBEGs.
Just to build on what Ranadiel was saying though, you're not very optimistic, are you? "A couple years off before the Character Visualizer is ready to go"? Seriously? I realize they're behind, but that seems unrealistic. It's the next big piece of software in the D&DI lineup scheduled for development, so if they're still planning on making it, they should be getting on to focusing on it very soon. If they are planning on doing that, I would be highly surprised if we don't have a closed beta by at least the end of the summer.
Agreed, that would rock! Especially custom BBEGs.
Just to build on what Ranadiel was saying though, you're not very optimistic, are you? "A couple years off before the Character Visualizer is ready to go"? Seriously? I realize they're behind, but that seems unrealistic. It's the next big piece of software in the D&DI lineup scheduled for development, so if they're still planning on making it, they should be getting on to focusing on it very soon. If they are planning on doing that, I would be highly surprised if we don't have a closed beta by at least the end of the summer.
Actually I think the dungeon builder is next.....or at least it was. They are sort of reorganizing their game plan right now so it is hard to tell what to expect next.
Actually I think the dungeon builder is next.....or at least it was. They are sort of reorganizing their game plan right now so it is hard to tell what to expect next.
Ahh. That's the tool I usually forget about, I think because at one point it was sorta lumped in (conceptually) with the Game Table. Anyway, you're right, they do seem to be reorganizing their tactics for developing D&DI.
Still, two years for the Character Visualizer? That seems pretty extreme.
I could be wrong. Certainly hope I am.
Two years isn't a prediction, really. Just saying that the character visualizer is... hrm. A significant piece of software, and we're in a recession. I find it somewhat likely that the visualizer isn't a focus. I'd love to open up my DDI in a few months and see it working. But, in the past, when a company comes out and says "We're not promising anything" it's because something has destroyed their timeline. They no longer have a planned sequence, they just don't know when they're going to get to it.
I could be wrong. Certainly hope I am.
I understand now. I still don't want to believe you, but I understand. :P
Recessions definitely are a bummer, especially when you're trying to be innovative.
Two years isn't a prediction, really. Just saying that the character visualizer is... hrm. A significant piece of software, and we're in a recession. I find it somewhat likely that the visualizer isn't a focus. I'd love to open up my DDI in a few months and see it working. But, in the past, when a company comes out and says "We're not promising anything" it's because something has destroyed their timeline. They no longer have a planned sequence, they just don't know when they're going to get to it.
I could be wrong. Certainly hope I am.
This is what happens when
A) Wizards/Hasbro doesn't get a second opinion on what a consultant thinks is a reasonable dev cycle for a product like this, or doesn't talk to a consultant at all because some upper management idiot thinks he knows how long software development takes.
B) Some poor sap starts frantically coding to get it to work in an unreasonable time span, and fails pretty much because of the contraints placed on him.
C) The project manage finally snaps, either because of crappy management or volatile fans giving him crap indirectly. I'm not going to repeat the details but those who have been following the situation should know what I'm talking about. This royally screwed up a lot of things, from dev team morale to the timeline in general.
I really, really hope Wizards/Hasbro has learned their lesson about software design. In the meantime, what we have now in DDI is well worth the price anyway, for the Compendium and Dragon alone.
I really, really hope Wizards/Hasbro has learned their lesson about software design. In the meantime, what we have now in DDI is well worth the price anyway, for the Compendium and Dragon alone.
Don't forget the quality of the Character Builder, and the look of the upcoming Compendium interface! Combined with comments to the effect that, "D&DI Tools aren't going to be released until we can deliver software of the same quality as the Character Builder!" things are looking very encouraging to me, overall!
Recession be damned!
Don't forget the quality of the Character Builder, and the look of the upcoming Compendium interface! Combined with comments to the effect that, "D&DI Tools aren't going to be released until we can deliver software of the same quality as the Character Builder!" things are looking very encouraging to me, overall!
Recession be damned!
The Character Builder shows a lot of promise, but I hope they aim for a bit higher of a standard - it's nice to have a full version, but it still lacks real usability.
The Character Builder shows a lot of promise, but I hope they aim for a bit higher of a standard - it's nice to have a full version, but it still lacks real usability.
...
It's the most usable character generator program ever made, IMHO. I've used a lot of them for a number of different systems, and this one is in a whole 'nother league. (For example, PCGen was way to complicated.) What were you expecting that the Character Builder is lacking? About the only thing I can imagine is a program which would not only create but also optimize your character for you.
Isn't it possible that you're just not the sort of person who likes to use software for these purposes? In this case, I would suspect you don't qualify as WotC's target audience.
EDIT: I want to add that I support your premise of, "Expect even more quality!
" I'm just a bit incredulous that you don't find the Character Builder to be of such a standard.I remember them actually saying that the Character Generator and the Visualizer were the furthest along nearly to Alpha quality as of 4E launch. I would imagine that the Visualizer would be the next thing to come along as it has features that greatly enchance the Dungeon Designer and Gametable products. Though the Survey is there to gauge where the community expects programmer resouces to be applied.
Personally I am hoping for the Character Visualizer. I don't game with artists anymore and having a good looking character portrait that could also print a Cardboard standup to rep the character during play would be VERY welcome. If it were good enough, it would be a worthwhile program for any fantasy game system.
Baerrwin
PS the WoW Figure prints figures are 2-3" in height, making them unsuitable for gaming. Also from what I could see at blizzcon they looked somewhat fragile also diminishing their use in a RP setting. Also, you don't have to sign up for a lottery anymore to get the figures, they now have enough 3d printers to keep up with demand.
...
It's the most usable character generator program ever made, IMHO. I've used a lot of them for a number of different systems, and this one is in a whole 'nother league. (For example, PCGen was way to complicated.) What were you expecting that the Character Builder is lacking? About the only thing I can imagine is a program which would not only create but also optimize your character for you.
Isn't it possible that you're just not the sort of person who likes to use software for these purposes? In this case, I would suspect you don't qualify as WotC's target audience.
EDIT: I want to add that I support your premise of, "Expect even more quality!
Beside having a nice graphical interface the Chargen offers nothing what many excel-characterbuilders didn't ofter since a few weeks after 4e release.
What makes the DDI version worse is that you're at the mercy of the developers as far as the numerous errors are concerned. If one of the excel-builders has a power wrong, you can just fix it yourself. If the DDI-builder has a power wrong you have to wait for the next update (and as far as RPGA is concerned it actually leads to the debate whether the error in the DDI-builder version is setting the new RAW as it's the lastest rule source)
...
It's the most usable character generator program ever made, IMHO. I've used a lot of them for a number of different systems, and this one is in a whole 'nother league. (For example, PCGen was way to complicated.) What were you expecting that the Character Builder is lacking? About the only thing I can imagine is a program which would not only create but also optimize your character for you.
Currently what it's lacking is the ability to display a completed character correctly for all legal builds - something you can fairly easily configure a spreadsheet to do. While the character builder is nice, it doesn't calculate several game elements correctly and it doesn't let you modify the appropriate fields on the final sheet so you at least have a legal character to bring to the table.
It's also lacking adequate support for houserule and homebrew content - again brought on by the problem that there are innumerable fields you can't modify if they need to be modified. Given the scope of 4E, the builder is simply too tightly focused and not flexible enough.
In trying to do everything, the character builder has failed on its primary function - creating a usable character sheet. It has tremendous potential, and I would agree that it's probably the best of its nature to date - but it still lacks basic functionality, so I would not consider it to be a finished product.
I would love a fully functional character builder application - but what I need is something that creates a character sheet I can use.
For the physical Miniatures that could be generated, I was actually assuming something that printed out and folded into a standup of some variety. ie SJ games Cardboard Heroes
I don't know about the rest of you, but releasing a tool that would make printable mini's like this would be a huge draw for me. I don't like to spend time and money searching Ebay for large lots of kobolds or orcs or whatever so that I can run module X in two weeks without using beads to represent minions. A tool that helped me print various pictures as paper minis and size them appropriately? That's something worth subscribing to DDI for!
My groups last play session had two players using character builder character sheets. They were very well done from what I saw. Other than having no descriptions for the mages rituals and a non calculated box for a power on the rogue it looks fantastic. Everything already done, neat and available for use during the game without having to open a book. The builder is a program that will have its faults at first and it hasn't been out very long. So updates, I'm sure will come more frequent as they decide to publish them but That will probably only happen when they are finished with the other parts of DDI; the dungeon builder, visualizer, and the game table.
The visualizer, dungeonbuilder and gametable are indefinitely delayed.
I know a lot of people who would pay a lot for these figures, including me!
I know someone who can make a customized mini for you right now, for a lot less than that: me!
I don't need a 3d printer. I use a paintbrush and an Xacto (and some greenstuff).
People paying $100 for a "custom" plastic mini = crazy!
I know someone who can make a customized mini for you right now, for a lot less than that: me!
I don't need a 3d printer. I use a paintbrush and an Xacto (and some greenstuff).
People paying $100 for a "custom" plastic mini = crazy!
Problem is that you don't have access to a 3-d modeling program that a layman can use, without special training, to create their own model, which you will then reproduce faithfully.
The point isn't that you can custom-make a model. That's not really the big deal. Anyone can hire someone to paint a model, sculpt it. But the combination of visualizer and 3-d printer will hopefully allow a non-sculptor to create a model to their own, fairly exact, specifications.
Actually, they're updating the Compendium interface and the Character Builder every month. Apparently, they've got a team dedicated to them.
I think there is only 1 team...
The visualizer, dungeonbuilder and gametable are indefinitely delayed.
source please...
Source is January's Ampersand column. He essentially says they're going to keep working on, and constantly update, the Character Builder and Compendium. Other elements of the DDI are on indefinite hold, until they "evaluate where they're going".
...He doesn't say anything of this sort, Kaldric. What he says is:
After that… well, we’re working on that. We had grand plans and we were overly ambitious in what could actually be accomplished in the time we had. We don’t want to overextend or overpromise anymore. We’re going to finish the D&D Character Builder, then take stock of where we are and what we can and should concentrate on next. Things are in the works, and I look forward to the day when the whole grand plan comes together. But we’ll be more realistic in our goals and timelines moving forward. I’ll talk more about this in the weeks and months ahead, both here and in Digital Insider.
He mentions timelines having been overly ambitious. He never even mentions the Visualizer, the Game Table, or the Dungeon Builder, neither directly nor indirectly, nor does he mention anything being "indefinitely delayed".
What Bill did say, in Digital Insider, was:
We’ve learned a lot over the past twelve months. Now we need to take a moment, evaluate where we are and where we want to go next. To do that, we want to fully engage you in the process. We’re ramping up the polls and surveys we host on the free portion of the website as well as within the D&D Insider space, so that we can find out what you want to see moving forward. D&D Insider, like the D&D brand itself, is a living, growing, ever-expanding experience. It expands every month as we update the Compendium and Character Builder, and as we release new content via the online magazines. And it will expand beyond that, eventually adding new features and functionality. We won’t release any component, however, until it hits or exceeds the level of quality we’ve established with the Character Builder.
...
So, whether you answer a survey or take a poll or post to the message boards, please talk to us. Digital Insider is ending, but the conversation is just beginning.
All he's saying here is that they're taking stock of what's economically feasible, and that they still intend to add to the features provided to D&D Insider subscribers. Add this to the fact that today's CB update included a button to the (currently unavailable) Character Visualizer tool, and one can only assume that there are still plans to release additional features and tools in the future.
...He doesn't say anything of this sort, Kaldric. [snip].
The only important thing he says in the jumble of corp-speak is: "We’re going to finish the D&D Character Builder, then take stock of where we are and what we can and should concentrate on next."
Translated, this means: We don't know what we're going to do after Character Builder. We don't know if we can, or should, finish the Visualizer and Gametable."
That sounds like the very definition of indefinite hold, to me. If he had wanted to say that they are going to eventually finish the Visualizer and Gametable, or give some indication that they were going to be delayed for a certain period, he would have said something like "We'll take stock and decide which of these projects we'll be working on next". Not "Where and what we CAN and should concentrate on next."
Perhaps it's just a really vague, corp-speak way of hedging their bets, and trying to head off speculation.
Generally, weasel-words like this are a way of avoiding sharing bad news. I thought the visualizer was available through the portrait portion before, just didn't have a button, seem to remember seeing it under options before today's button showed up. And while it certainly indicates they want the CB to be able to have a link to the visualizer, it's no indication that the visualizer has a set production schedule.
The visualizer may be finished at some point in the future. They don't know when, they haven't made a decision on whether to finish it at all. Thus, indefinite hold.
Seriously, kudos to them for being as honest and open about their mistakes regarding scheduling, promising software, etc. I think that the DDI is worth what they're charging as it is, or I wouldn't be paying for it. But getting your hopes up for the Visualizer and the Game Table any time in the near future (like, a year or more), seems, to me, to be unwarranted. I would be happy to be proven wrong, of course.
The only important thing he says in the jumble of corp-speak is: "We’re going to finish the D&D Character Builder, then take stock of where we are and what we can and should concentrate on next."
Translated, this means: We don't know what we're going to do after Character Builder. We don't know if we can, or should, finish the Visualizer and Gametable."
yes, let's take one sentence out of an entire article, parse it, throw it through a thesaurus and pass it through our green tinted glasses until it says exactly what you said it did
Huh. Might as well.
After that… well, we’re working on that.
We have no idea whatsoever what we're going to do next, if anything.
We had grand plans and we were overly ambitious in what could actually be accomplished in the time we had.
We seriously messed up.
We don’t want to overextend or overpromise anymore.
We overextended and overpromised. Sorry.
We’re going to finish the D&D Character Builder,
We finished it.
then take stock of where we are and what we can and should concentrate on next.
We really don't know what we're doing next.
Things are in the works, and I look forward to the day when the whole grand plan comes together.
... whenever that day might come.
But we’ll be more realistic in our goals and timelines moving forward.
We don't have goals or timelines we can talk to you about.
I’ll talk more about this in the weeks and months ahead, both here and in Digital Insider.
Well... Digital Insider is gone now. An Ampersand went by without mentioning anything except that they'd be putting setting articles in Dragon and Dungeon... which ain't really any news about the table or visualizer. So, would seem to be more "Months" than weeks.
We’ve learned a lot over the past twelve months.
Translation: Wow, we messed up.
Now we need to take a moment, evaluate where we are and where we want to go next.
We've got no idea what to do now, we're totally screwed.
To do that, we want to fully engage you in the process. We’re ramping up the polls and surveys we host on the free portion of the website as well as within the D&D Insider space, so that we can find out what you want to see moving forward.
We're going to ask you guys what we should do. This in no way obligates us to release the information we get from you, or to act on it. But we can later say "We're doing what you asked" Without actually, you know, releasing that information. (Hey, they pay for the surveys, it's proprietary info - I'm not saying they SHOULD release it, but advertising that they're DOING it, and expecting it to mean something to us, is just meaningless. If they wanted us to care that they were doing it, they'd show us the results and then show us what they're doing in response. But businesses just don't do that.
D&D Insider, like the D&D brand itself, is a living, growing, ever-expanding experience.
We're totally expanding DDI!
It expands every month as we update the Compendium and Character Builder, and as we release new content via the online magazines.
... By continuing to do what we're already doing.
And it will expand beyond that, eventually adding new features and functionality.
Note that we don't say anything specifically about the Visualizer or the Game Table. In fact, note that we don't mention them in this speech... at all. Why don't we? No reason! And by eventually, we mean nothing "indefinite" at all. "Eventually" is totally a definite time.
We won’t release any component, however, until it hits or exceeds the level of quality we’ve established with the Character Builder.
We won't release any component until we want to, and if you ask us why, we'll tell you it's because we haven't reached a standard of quality. A standard of quality commensurate with "eventually" getting it done.
Doctorhook, you said it yourself. He never even mentions the Game Table, Visualizer, or Dungeon Builder. Things are coming... more articles in Dungeon and Dragon, refinements of the Compendium and the Character Builder, and that's it for now. Eventually, maybe some expanded function. But no promises as to what that will "eventually" be.
BTW, the new Compendium interface is awesome. So much better. I'm in no way dogging the DDI. I pay for it, and I think it's worth it. But I'm not going to believe they're working on the Visualizer and the Game Table and the Dungeon Builder until they actually, you know, give me some reason to think that they are.
These developers are wise enough not to give us specific time tables. I hate programs that are rushed out to meet a specific release date only to be full of bugs and unable to be used by the masses. It's bad for business and they know it. Besides we have books and mini's available in stores. They are in no need to hurry.
I certainly understand the desire not to promise a date, when you might not be able to deliver on that date. But this is not all they're doing. Looking at the news, I get the impression they may not be working on the GT&V at all. They may prepare the projects they ARE working on to accommodate the GT&V at some future juncture, but this is not an indication that GT&V are currently active projects.
A problem with having the project on the back burner, that is, no assigned team currently moving the project towards completion, is that possible changes in management and design philosophy could shelve the projects permanently, which isn't something I'd like to see.
What would settle my mind on the issue is someone saying "We're dedicated to completing the Game Table and Visualizer. They will definitely be finished, and they will be, recognizably, the products we promo'd." Don't need a schedule, don't need a date. Just a commitment to actually completing these specific items at some point.
A problem with having the project on the back burner, that is, no assigned team currently moving the project towards completion, is that possible changes in management and design philosophy could shelve the projects permanently, which isn't something I'd like to see.
What would settle my mind on the issue is someone saying "We're dedicated to completing the Game Table and Visualizer. They will definitely be finished, and they will be, recognizably, the products we promo'd." Don't need a schedule, don't need a date. Just a commitment to actually completing these specific items at some point.
I agree with you on this. I, as well as others, would like a confirmation that they are atleast still going do the projects. Like you said, they don't have to place a date or even a time line, just a statement that they are still going to do the projects.
I certainly understand the desire not to promise a date, when you might not be able to deliver on that date. But this is not all they're doing. Looking at the news, I get the impression they may not be working on the GT&V at all. They may prepare the projects they ARE working on to accommodate the GT&V at some future juncture, but this is not an indication that GT&V are currently active projects.
I think this is a fair assessment, because it notes that this is your interpretation of what we've heard. However, I don't think it was fair of you to say that these articles indicated that anything was indefinitely on hold. The fact is, Bill is being intentionally vague, and because of it, we have no solid information; we can speculate, but that's all we've got. It's no more fair or correct of me to say that the Visualizer is D&DI's current priority than it is for you to say that it's not.