We have received a tremendous amount of feedback from fans regarding the D&D Miniatures line, and have made some exciting changes for 2009. Here’s what’s coming to a shelf near you!
Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures -- Player’s Handbook Heroes
More than anything else, D&D players have been asking us for more PC (player character) minis. The D&D Heroes line features high-quality miniatures representing iconic player character races and classes described in the Player’s Handbook and Player’s Handbook 2 core rulebooks. Now players will be able to find the miniature that best represents their PC, and Dungeon Masters can use these figures to represent non-player characters in their adventures.
Launching in Spring 2009, the first D&D Heroes series features six different packs (18 figures total):
Martial Heroes 1
Martial Heroes 2
Arcane Heroes 1
Arcane Heroes 2
Divine Heroes 1
Primal Heroes 1
Each package contains 3 PC minis: 2 males and 1 female, and 3 unique power cards featuring brand new class powers. All three of the figures in the package will be visible so you’ll know exactly which pack to pick for your game.
The D&D Heroes will be refreshed regularly in order to continue to deliver new PC options to players. There are two series scheduled for 2009 and three scheduled for 2010. MSRP $10.99.
Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures -- Monster Manual
Also new to the 2009 lineup are Monster Manual themed releases. These sets are designed to be what every Dungeon Master (or D&D enthusiast) needs to create riveting adventures and exciting encounters at all levels of play.
Releasing in Spring 2009, the first D&D Monsters set is called Monster Manual: Dangerous Delves. This will be a 40-miniature set containing both medium and large sized figures. Each semi-randomized “booster” box contains 5 minis: 1 visible figure, 1 rare figure, 1 uncommon figure and 2 common figures, as well as full-color D&D Dungeon Delve stat cards for each miniature. MSRP $14.99.
Upon the release of D&D Monsters and D&D Heroes, we will no longer package the D&D Miniatures line in its current configuration (fully randomized booster packs and huge packs). This means that November’s set -- D&D Miniatures: Demonweb -- will be the final release sold in fully randomized booster packs.
Question: Are these "unique powers" going to be available on the website, or are they going to be available via purchase alone? If it's the latter--and that's what I suspect--that's the biggest crock of **** I've ever seen, and 4e has just become even more like Magic than before. I hope people scan those and put them up on the Internet as soon as they're released.
If the former is the case, then I hate WotC slightly less.
its not random , so not like magic.
as for if they will be in the compendium, I hope so.
regardless they will be posted here as soon as someone see's them anywhere
Question: Are these "unique powers" going to be available on the website, or are they going to be available via purchase alone? If it's the latter--and that's what I suspect--that's the biggest crock of **** I've ever seen, and 4e has just become even more like Magic than before. I hope people scan those and put them up on the Internet as soon as they're released.
If the former is the case, then I hate WotC slightly less.
They might also really be preview powers that might be released into future supplements (or test powers to get feed back from)
I will post someone else's words on this issue:
I've always hated CCG's with a passion. They induce people, especially children, to pay hundreds of dollars, or more, on game rules which are continuously invalidated and re-issued to create more profit. I've personally known people who have spent thousands of dollars on these transitory cardboard rules. The effects of randomization and "rare" cards also fuel my hatred of CCG's.
That's some of the reason why I play Dnd 3.0. Most of the problems in CCG's are not present in a rulebook based game. Dnd 3.0 is a constant ruleset which is only altered based upon houserules agreed to by the group. Nobody is penalized for not owning a particular book (we share), and the playing field is level.
Now there is this new 4e minis line featuring "...3 unique power cards featuring brand new class powers." Ugh. Remember the bad times in 3.x when people bought a particular book, not because they wanted the entire book, but because it had that one broken ability that the player wanted? Now in 4e, players will be buying miniature packs to get that one unique power card that completes their character build.
In the months and years to come, it seems likely this conversation will occur on a Dnd messageboard:
New player: "Hello everyone. I'm a new Dnd player and I'm playing a new game level 12. I'm a Druid. What powers should I take?"
Old forumer: "You want powers X, Y, and Z. Those let you win the game."
New player: "Okay...I found powers X and Y. I couldn't find power Z in the book though..."
Old forumer: "Noob. That power comes in the Primal Heroes mini pack."
New player: "Oh. Well, I don't really want to spend money on a new miniature pack that I might not like or play for a long time..."
Old forumer: "Your loss."
Old forumer #2: "Check your PM." (Includes link to website which has a listing of all the powers on unique power cards).
Or possibly official Dnd events will require you to own the power card in order to play with it. Now we are smack right in the middle of CCG territory.
Don't worry P_R, this is just them trying to save their ailing mini sales, (which will fail because they have a total lack of understanding of how to sell minis)
Reasons for crap decision of Power Cards in minis boxes, one bad economy. Two crap quality (even Reaper makes them look bad) product, and third, ****ing random minis. MINIS SHOULD NEVER BE EFFING RANDOM. READ THE TEXT WOTC. NEVER.
Get that through your thick steel plated skulls... NO MORE RANDOM (as in not the least bit random) Minis!
I could -almost- forgive their quality.. if they weren't RANDOM.
Sorry...rant over...
Get that through your thick steel plated skulls... NO MORE RANDOM (as in not the least bit random) Minis!
I could -almost- forgive their quality.. if they weren't RANDOM.
Sorry...rant over...
*sshhh* Don't tell anyone....
But I agree with Cpt_Micha.
Question: Are these "unique powers" going to be available on the website, or are they going to be available via purchase alone?
We do not know.
If it's the latter--and that's what I suspect--that's the biggest crock of **** I've ever seen
Riiight. 'Cause making that information available on the web is critical for those of us who actually play 4e to enjoy our games. :rolleyes.
Some people can find reasons to whine with every decision made by WotC.
So basically this thread is really about Magic The Gathering and people's hatred for it?
Don't worry P_R, this is just them trying to save their ailing mini sales, (which will fail because they have a total lack of understanding of how to sell minis)
Reasons for crap decision of Power Cards in minis boxes, one bad economy. Two crap quality (even Reaper makes them look bad) product, and third, ****ing random minis. MINIS SHOULD NEVER BE EFFING RANDOM. READ THE TEXT WOTC. NEVER.
Get that through your thick steel plated skulls... NO MORE RANDOM (as in not the least bit random) Minis!
I could -almost- forgive their quality.. if they weren't RANDOM.
Sorry...rant over...
i was under the impression that the hero minis that are coming up were not random
[/progressive sarcasm]
I can get books by purchasing them online then printing them, but I can't do the same with minis (and I've no FLGS nearby, so I can't buy them the normal way). Thus, if a very nifty set of powers comes out, I'm left out. That's not a good thing. If WotC lets people see them through the website (paying a fee, of course), I'll have no problem, though.
Even though PR is against it, I have to admit this is a bad move. Especially because, most likely, there's going to be really broken and poorly playtested powers with the minis.
I can get books by purchasing them online then printing them, but I can't do the same with minis (and I've no FLGS nearby, so I can't buy them the normal way). Thus, if a very nifty set of powers comes out, I'm left out. That's not a good thing. If WotC lets people see them through the website (paying a fee, of course), I'll have no problem, though.
or you use the million online copies that people will post & have it for free
[/sarcasm]
If I wanted to avoid having to pay, I wouldn't be complaining, now would I?
Yeah, because I really want to do it the illegal way.
[/sarcasm]
If I wanted to avoid having to pay, I wouldn't be complaining, now would I?
There is absolutely nothing illegal about using a power you read about on the internet in your own personal game.
I will concede that, since we don't know this information, there is the potential for this to become some horrible collector's game in order to be the most effective D&D character... but I think the actual likelihood of that is so low as to be almost nonexistant.
I wouldn't be surprised if all the powers are low-level, and thus will be available in the public section of the Compendium. That's my theory at least.
In any case, I don't think it is really worthwhile to rant yet again about the sky falling on a topic on which almost no info is actually known.
Also this isn't a card game where people will say that you need to have the card to use it (well they may say that in the living campaigns, but that's WoTC endorsed, much like having to have painted mini's in a Rouge Trader game). As long as you can look it up, or someone in the group has it then you have it.
Do I think that's a cool move, no, but they are trying to make it in a crap-box economy (I've been watching Hasbro's stock, worrying about what it'll mean for D&D), and because they are trying to get some cash out of a game that is basically centered around "pick up 3 basic books and your done (as far as a have to have)" idea.
White wolf has done it, to try to raise sales, and even my beloved Hero system is turning to a new edition... the only ones I see staying out of the "new edition" game is Palladium, and from how influential they were in the pre-White Wolf gamer heart, they have fallen a long way. I don't hear of anyone who plays Rifts AT ALL anymore. So you do suffer quite a bit if you don't "keep up". That still is crappy for those of us who are without the disposable cash needed to "get them all."
Furthermore, if they make the powers that come with the Mini's too OP or powerful, they run the risk of cutting their own greedy hands, because DM's will just disallow them from the table. And because there is no book that the DM may need stuff from, they won't worry about the "if you can use this, then why can't I have that" argument.
Now I like the new system, but as Yoda would say "pushing it, they are." It's funny, but I don't see anyone complaining that so many published adventures actually have many different monsters than the MM. From what I've seen, you can expand your MM collection of stat blocks just by looking at the adventures put out by WoTC. I've been trying to put together a Monstrous Manual for my own use, collecting all of these in one place.
In summation, as long as they aren't collectable or randomized, I don't think that the new power cards are that bad of a deal, at least you'll be getting new Martial Powers with the Martial packs, Arcane Powers in the Arcane packs, etc. I'd be so miffed if I got a ton of powers that I don't use by purchasing a pack made for what I do use.
Yeah, because I really want to do it the illegal way.
[/sarcasm]
If I wanted to avoid having to pay, I wouldn't be complaining, now would I?
people post abilities on these very forums daily, i think you will live.
I would also be amazed if the compendium did not have the rules for them.
then of course there is the 50 cents or so ebay will charge for them.
Question: Are these "unique powers" going to be available on the website, or are they going to be available via purchase alone? If it's the latter--and that's what I suspect--that's the biggest crock of **** I've ever seen, and 4e has just become even more like Magic than before. I hope people scan those and put them up on the Internet as soon as they're released.
If the former is the case, then I hate WotC slightly less.
First, at least they're not random, as far as we can tell.
Second, I'd wager good money they will indeed be in the D&D Compendium on DDI very soon after release, just like every other piece of information relevant to that program.
Third, you're darn right they'll be available nearly instantaneously. However...how is this the biggest crock of **** ever, anyhow? Any splatbook you do not purchase brings with it precisely the same problem, where those without must rely on those with to determine the power.
Which brings me to my final point: How do we know these won't be visible within the packaging, right behind the visible figures? You might never need to buy the product to get this info, just look inside the clear plastic box, copy down the information, and go to town. It might even be printed on the box, ala some of the stat cards for the minis. This would be just like copying down all of the material you want from a book you do not wish to purchase in a bookstore/gaming store, and is as likely to be stopped as said practice (in other words, depends on the rules of the store in question).
Really, this information will be disseminated so swiftly, I don't see it being a big issue. The day of the release, or the day or the prerelease if they have one for this product, will be the day that this info is available all over the internet.
Will the unique power cards in the Player’s Handbook Heroes packs be available anywhere else?
As I mentioned above, the power cards in the packs will match to the minis in the pack so the distribution is not random. These brand-new character class powers will be added to the D&D Compendium and D&D Character Builder databases on D&D Insider. Eventually, they may see inclusion in a D&D game book.
Posted by Scott Rouse here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20081023
So...yeah. Relax already.
As I mentioned above, the power cards in the packs will match to the minis in the pack so the distribution is not random. These brand-new character class powers will be added to the D&D Compendium and D&D Character Builder databases on D&D Insider. Eventually, they may see inclusion in a D&D game book.
Well, that's fine then. Including a few (essentially non-random) powers with the miniatures is no big deal, provided they are not overpowered or character-defining. And they'll be in the compendium, as they should be.
You don't suppose the new powers they have might be the same as powers released on a D&D mini's stat card, do you? So that each mini comes with a stat card, as usual, but has a power card saying what certain mini's powers would behave like in RPG terms?
No, I wouldn't assume so. I play DDM, and the way it usually works is that on the back of every card, there are RPG stats for every mini. Unfortunatly, the stats are monsters stats, not player stats. So I guess they will just have seperate cards with the powers listed on them.*
By the by, will the included minis even HAVE DDM stats? It would seem a bit werid to add those non-random minis to random play... well, actually, they did that very thing with the starter set. Could be an option then, I guess.
*If you want to see what I mean, the DDM web site has a listing of every card currently in the game, including RPG stats.
By the by, will the included minis even HAVE DDM stats? It would seem a bit werid to add those non-random minis to random play... well, actually, they did that very thing with the starter set. Could be an option then, I guess.
No, DDM Skirmish is officially dead as a product. The minis are now officially only for the RPG, not a separate skirmish game. I know that upsets some people, but if the showing at tourneys simply were not there, nor the interest in the skirmish game (and in my experience as a retailer, the VAST majority of the customers we had at my old store for DDM were people buying the game for the RPG, not the skirmish game, so it is supported by my own anecdotal evidence), then they should cease to support that aspect of the game.
ETA: Incidentally, D&D 4E is very miniatures friendly. WotC could likely supply some sort of quick and dirty point system. This would require nothing more than a formula that will be essentially universal in application: WotC, can you simply assign point values to PCs, minions, standard monsters, elites and solos, for each level from 1-33 (or higher, as higher level monsters appear)? The end. Voila, an entire 4E skirmish game's core structure encapsulated in one chart, the PHB, and the MM.
edit: above poster beat me to it.
and to put some alchohol on the wound, DDM (though fun, my g/f and I played quite a bit) didn't sell well except for DM's fooling themselves into thinking there was more value in the mini's than just for the D&D table (notice the afor mentioned "my g/f and I played"). Now the WoTC is directing the product 100% instead of being half and half, I look for the product to improve greatly.
after demonweb, DDM is no more my friend, read the release.
Wha-wha-what??!!
...
...
I have to go... I have a... food... in the oven...
Posted by Scott Rouse here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20081023
So...yeah. Relax already.
Thanks for the quote and the link. As long as they hit the Compendium I would be happy.
Wha-wha-what??!!
...
...
I have to go... I have a... food... in the oven...
I edited my post above, and also made the following suggestion in the actual minis feedback thread. All that is required to make a skirmish game that, in all likelihood as competitive and GOOD as the DDM Skirmish game (either 1E or 2E) is a single chart. If WotC can provide a point chart for PCs, minions, standard monsters, elite monsters, and solo monsters or each level from 1-33, you have the makings of a very strong skirmish game using nothing more than that chart, the PHB, and the MM (or that chart and the DDI Compendium :eek
. That might very well be the single best solution for all parties, and very easy for WotC to implement, as it requires literally ONE POINT-COST CHART to turn 4E into a skirmish game that allows monsters and PCs to be placed in the same warband.
Scattering game information around like this is a bad move. I'm not going to rent the information via the compendium and I'm not going to buy minis packs I don't need just to get rules. The more difficult it is to keep up with the rules the less inclined I am to do so. I'm willing to buy every book that comes out, I'm not willing to chase down rules snippets here and there.
At the very least put those powers in Dragon the month they're released. Of course I won't see them there until WotC gets this ridiculous idea of selling the magazines as a service out of their heads and puts the pdfs up on RPGNow, but it's a better solution.
This is also going to introduce power creep in a way that normal splat books won't. Those powers are being used as an incentive to buy an unrelated (in the rules sense), optional product. They are virtually guaranteed to have power creep. They have to in order to provide that impetus to get the packs.
Posted by Scott Rouse here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20081023
So...yeah. Relax already.
Thanks for the information
i was under the impression that the hero minis that are coming up were not random
I recall seeing the words "Semi Random"
Semi is still too random for me.
Scattering game information around like this is a bad move.
When has game information NOT been scattered about?
Before 3e, game information was found in multiple sourcebooks published by TSR *and* occasional sourcebooks published by a few licensed third-party publishers.
With 3e, game information was found in:
- official WotC sourcebooks,
- officially-licensed 3rd party publisher sourcebooks,
- OGL/d20-licensed 3rd party publisher sourcebooks,
- the WotC website
- Dragon
- Dungeon
- Polyhedron
- RPGA-sanctioned material
Holy Wee Jas, this new-fangled interwebs thing gives folks a place to gripe about everything.
When has game information NOT been scattered about?
Before 3e, game information was found in multiple sourcebooks published by TSR *and* occasional sourcebooks published by a few licensed third-party publishers.
With 3e, game information was found in:How much of a change is it to have some class-specific powers listed with the mini sets?
- official WotC sourcebooks,
- officially-licensed 3rd party publisher sourcebooks,
- OGL/d20-licensed 3rd party publisher sourcebooks,
- the WotC website
- Dragon
- Dungeon
- Polyhedron
- RPGA-sanctioned material
Holy Wee Jas, this new-fangled interwebs thing gives folks a place to gripe about everything.
And I'm drawing a line between having rules spread across rulebooks and rules stuck on cards in packs of miniatures. Which is clear in my post for those that bothered to read it. And no, rules were not scattered around in THIS fashion in the past.
Here's an idea: try reading and understanding the whole post instead of stopping after the first sentence and griping about my opinion on the subject.
I edited my post above, and also made the following suggestion in the actual minis feedback thread. All that is required to make a skirmish game that, in all likelihood as competitive and GOOD as the DDM Skirmish game (either 1E or 2E) is a single chart. If WotC can provide a point chart for PCs, minions, standard monsters, elite monsters, and solo monsters or each level from 1-33, you have the makings of a very strong skirmish game using nothing more than that chart, the PHB, and the MM (or that chart and the DDI Compendium :eek
That might very well be the single best solution for all parties, and very easy for WotC to implement, as it requires literally ONE POINT-COST CHART to turn 4E into a skirmish game that allows monsters and PCs to be placed in the same warband.
I disagree completly. The DDM game works very differently from 4E. SImply slapping point costs on monsters will not work. 4E monsters stats are totally incompatable with DDM.
For me as a DDM player, that would NOT be a solution.
And I'm drawing a line between having rules spread across rulebooks and rules stuck on cards in packs of miniatures.
It's a fake line, drawn in the sand to give you some arbitrary distinction to gripe about.
Which is clear in my post for those that bothered to read it. And no, rules were not scattered around in THIS fashion in the past.
Riiiight.... 'cause adding powers to cards is sooo much of a different "scattered around" than 25 different Forgotten Realms books, half a dozen Eberron-specific books, umpteen splat books, five years of website pages, 60 issues of Dragon magazine, ten issues of Polyhedron, 36 issues of Dungeon.
OMFG! They have 3 whole powers sitting in a minis package I don't own, and now I absolutely HAVE to buy this or my game is incomplete!!!
Here's an idea: try reading and understanding the whole post instead of stopping after the first sentence and griping about my opinion on the subject.
I read your whole post. It continued to worry about the conclusions you draw with your complaint lead.
You object that there are a few powers distributed with the minis, and then surmise from this that the game power is going to escalate. It's a "so what" complaint, and an irrelevant conclusion. Power creep will happen because power creep happens over time. It has nothing to do with adding three new powers in each minis pack.
This is speculation however, the market might just go away for all I know.
I can't see spending $14.95 for 5 figures, let alone 4 unknown "semi-random" ones. I really can't see spending $14.95 for 1 figure I can see, and guessing at the rest.
The player packs, now those may have a higher value to me, for a pack or two to finish out what I am missing.
Again, if the whole DDM thing goes away, then why are we not seeing singles...I don't see the logic in any randomization for tabletop figures.
As for the power cards, it makes sense. Not saying I like it, but its a marketing ploy. Many folks will buy the boxes seeing them as 5 figures, plus 3 cards = 8 items, and thus increased sales. I just don't see it in this way.
I recall seeing the words "Semi Random"
Semi is still too random for me.
No, the hero figs are 100% non-random.
The monster figs are one large non-random, one random rare, one random uncommon, 2 random commons.
I agree, I would have preferred specific encounter packs, not semi-random. In all likelihood, this will sell better than completely random in brick and mortar, and will still supply 'net dealers with their secondary market figs.
However, I can certainly foresee WotC moving further and further away from random at all, and begin to print up specific encounters. That would allow for some pretty reasonable packaging of figs, likely at a significant discount since there would be considerably less packaging per fig (which is a big chunk of the cost involved).
Heck, I can see an entire adventure's worth of figs in one large package coming out in the future. However, I can also see the many problems that arise, that would require a limited release, and would be rather expensive for each adventure. For example, take Keep on the Shadowfell. To have every encounter in that adventure in one package would require the following figs:
1 Balgron the Fat
1 Blue Slime
1 Clay Scout
2 Corruption Corpses
1 Dark Creeper
1 Deathjump Spider
1 Deathlock Wight
12 Decrepit Skeletons
1 Gelatinous Cube
1 Ghoul
13 Giant Rats
1 Gnome Skulk
8 Goblin Cutters
3 Goblin Sharpshooters
5 Goblin Warriors
2 Gravehound Zombies
2 Guard Drakes
1 Halfling Slinger
1 Hobgolbin Archer
5 Hobgoblin Grunts
4 Hobgolbin Soldiers
1 Hobgoblin Torturer
1 Hobgoblin Warcaster
1 Hobgoblin Warchief
2 Human Berserkers
4 Human Rabble
1 Irontooth
1 Kalarel, Scion of Orcus
3 Kobold Dragonshields
10 Kobold Minions
3 Kobold Skirmishers
1 Kobold Slinger
1 Kobold Wyrmpriest
1 Kruthik Adult
6 Kruthik Hatchlings
3 Kruthik Young
1 Ninaran, Elf Archer
2 Ochre Jellies
1 Orcus Underpriest
1 Rat Swarm
1 Sir Keegan
2 Skeleton Warriors
5 Vampire Spawn
4 Zombies
12 Zombie Rotters
As you can see, that is 135 figs.
That is for the very first adventure alone. Thus, it would be pretty expensive to do. You are likely talking a $99.99 price point, possibly even higher. Thus, this would necessitate a limited, holiday-timed release, else a release right on the heels of the adventure in question.A good compromise would be to divvy the above list into rough encounter groups that don't 100% correspond to an actual encounter. For example, each of the goblins in one pack, the hobgoblins in another, the kobolds in another, the undead in yet another, a monster pack with the miscellaneous critters that are thematically similar (i.e. dungeon critters), and then a Keep on the Shadowfell box with all of the unique characters and remaining monsters not covered in all of the above boxes.
Then, repeat that scheme for each new adventure. Each additional adventure, however, would have a distinct advantage: All the figs that are crossovers from previous adventures needn't be printed, save a few here and there to fill out numbers (i.e. adding an extra 2 Hobgoblin Archers because this module requires 3, not 1, and so forth). Then, simply keep the older sets in print, rather than doing the usual (and IMHO pretty frustrating) scheme of rotating older sets out of print rather swiftly.
1. The visible figure is going to be essentially a large rare (Or huge, for huge sets) which have always been amongst the most pricey/sought after figures in the secondary market. So being able to pick out the most expensive mini in the box isn't a bad deal.
2. Quality is supposedly going up, which is going to matter to some people and not others. At least Wizards is admitting they've been trying to cut costs on quality the last few sets.
3. It's a box of monsters from the monster manual, not a mix of monsters, player figs, and random weirdness (Rhino Riding Orc) like you used to get. So between being more focused and having 1 mini you've picked, you'll probably end up with more usable stuff than you used to get, even with less minis per box.
I disagree completly. The DDM game works very differently from 4E. SImply slapping point costs on monsters will not work. 4E monsters stats are totally incompatable with DDM.
For me as a DDM player, that would NOT be a solution.
Heh, I disagree, obviously. The way 4E works is, first of all, extraordinarily miniatures friendly. Also, the number of abilities per PC/monster is purposefully kept to a minimum. PCs are actually going to be a bit more detailed, but monsters are extremely similar in terms of the numbers of abilities available. Thus, the monsters would change very little, and the PCs would be more detailed. The monsters, however, also cover some PC-esque options, such as the Eladrin, Dwarf, Dragonborn, etc, entries in the MM. Thus, a simplified PC-like character could simply be snagged from there rather than making an actual PC.
DDM Skirmish is nothing more than a toned-down (on the PC side) version of D&D. Thus, slightly increasing the complexity such that it is more closely tied to the RPG seems like a very workable solution. You are certainly NOT going to see WotC paying anyone to develop, playtest and print (even digitally) any new Skirmish stats.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is. The DDM game was NOT being sold primarily to Skirmish players. In the store I worked in, it was at LEAST 10:1 in favor of the RPG players over the Skirmish players. Bare minimum. It was likely closer to 20:1, as I could count the number of Skirmish players on my fingers, whereas a great many RPG players purchased the minis for their tabletop.
I'm not really invested in the change one way or the other, because I've personally reached my mini saturation point anyway. The hero packs should be nice if I'm looking for a paticular figure down the road though.
I, personally, would really love it if the monster packs also featured a "small" (say, 2x2 or 3x3) dungeon-tile that corresponded to the "visible" figure. Something like a "nest" or a "lair" or some "traps" (for kobolds) or a "big pile of gold" (for a dragon).
Honestly, I'd probably rather see something like that than power cards for the character-packs as well.
Perhaps tiles for things commonly associated with the character type. A pack with Rogues and Rangers may include some tiles of traps. A pack with Fighters and Warlocks may include a few mount-tiles. Something like that.
Heck, if they did that, everything would go from a "maybe" buy, to a "Preorder as soon as possible - I will have you" buy, for me.
Heh, I disagree, obviously. The way 4E works is, first of all, extraordinarily miniatures friendly. Also, the number of abilities per PC/monster is purposefully kept to a minimum. PCs are actually going to be a bit more detailed, but monsters are extremely similar in terms of the numbers of abilities available. Thus, the monsters would change very little, and the PCs would be more detailed. The monsters, however, also cover some PC-esque options, such as the Eladrin, Dwarf, Dragonborn, etc, entries in the MM. Thus, a simplified PC-like character could simply be snagged from there rather than making an actual PC.
DDM Skirmish is nothing more than a toned-down (on the PC side) version of D&D. Thus, slightly increasing the complexity such that it is more closely tied to the RPG seems like a very workable solution. You are certainly NOT going to see WotC paying anyone to develop, playtest and print (even digitally) any new Skirmish stats.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is. The DDM game was NOT being sold primarily to Skirmish players. In the store I worked in, it was at LEAST 10:1 in favor of the RPG players over the Skirmish players. Bare minimum. It was likely closer to 20:1, as I could count the number of Skirmish players on my fingers, whereas a great many RPG players purchased the minis for their tabletop.
Quick question: Have you ever PLAYED DDM? It does not sound like you know what you are talking about. There are major differences. Check out some DDM cards, then compare them to the RPG side.
Also, my opinion that I would dislike what you suggest still stands. It would not be a "best for everyone" type thing like you suggest. It's one way. The RPG players get what they want, the Minis players do not. I have accepted that now. I'd rather they simply leave it at that then slap point costs onto stats that don't work with the DDM game.
Quick question: Have you ever PLAYED DDM? It does not sound like you know what you are talking about. There are major differences. Check out some DDM cards, then compare them to the RPG side.
Also, my opinion that I would dislike what you suggest still stands. It would not be a "best for everyone" type thing like you suggest. It's one way. The RPG players get what they want, the Minis players do not. I have accepted that now. I'd rather they simply leave it at that then slap point costs onto stats that don't work with the DDM game.
Yes. Both versions. Since Harbinger, all the way through Against the Giants. It was nothing more than a slightly modified, toned-down-in-complexity version of D&D. Damage rolls were homogenized into fixed values, defenses were consolidated into one score with the occasional specialized higher score in one defense, and so on, purely roleplay-centric abilities were removed. Abilities deemed too powerful for the DDM point structure were toned down or removed, and monsters/PCs that were overall too powerful were likewise toned down to fall within the DDM tournament point structure.
I said "workable solution", which is a compromise, not a "best for everyone" solution. You are not getting any more new Skirmish product. Period. The Skirmish aspect of the game simply did not have anywhere close to a large enough customer base. ~5,500 players is incredibly tiny in a market like this. Does it suck for the Skirmish-only players? It sure does. Does that justify WotC losing money by paying for developers, playtesters, and printing costs (or even web-design costs) for a game with an insufficient customer base? Absolutely not. I feel your pain, and I'm sorry the game you love is effectively gone. I've certainly had my fair share of games completely disappear forever in terms of future support. That doesn't change the fact that Skirmish is officially dead, however.
To give DDM Skirmish players a means through which to continue with a skirmish-style game by altering the game one more time into a format that will be usable for the life of D&D 4E is a very good compromise. As opposed to getting nothing, which is the other alternative. Incidentally, in such a scenario, all the RPG-side stats on 2.0 figs will be the stats used, and will be the side used to determine the new cost of the figs in said scenario.
To give DDM Skirmish players a means through which to continue with a skirmish-style game by altering the game one more time into a format that will be usable for the life of D&D 4E is a very good compromise. As opposed to getting nothing, which is the other alternative. Incidentally, in such a scenario, all the RPG-side stats on 2.0 figs will be the stats used, and will be the side used to determine the new cost of the figs in said scenario.
So, are you suggesting they make what would essentially be the third edition od the DDM game? And it would be pretty much "Pitting creatures from the Monster Manual against eachother"?
Look, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that doesn't really sound like a good compromise. If I wanted to pit monsters against eachother, I wouldn't use point costs. I mean, that doesn't even seem to qualify as a "compromise". It is just saying "use the MM stats".
I understand that if they where losing money, they had to stop the line. I'll just use my old minis. But DDM was really quite different than just using the RPG stats. It would not be at all like the DDM game to just use MM stats. I just don't really understand how that would be a "compromise", since I could do that even when the DDM game was still being made. I wouldn't want to, though.
Let's just agree to disagree, we are derailing this thread.
The heros and semi-random 4 figs per monster pack are fine by me. I'll still ebay the rares I want and still buy large quantities of each set for common stock. I started collecting with Desert of Desolation, so am far from my "saturation point." This change is enough to keep me buying, when I was seriously considering stopping all mini purchases after Demonweb Pits and relying on substitutions.
The powers? Meh. I'll collect each set anyway. $60 for 18 higher quality iconic PCs isn't bad 2 or 3 times a year. If the powers are cool, they'll get used. If not, I'll have the cards and the Compendium anyway, and could likely find them for free in any number of places around the interwebs. Sure, piracy, illegal, blah blah blah. Noone is getting sued over some power cards. Hell, there are collections of cards available out there that completely replace the compendium and all it's information in card form, and none of those sites have recieved C&Ds yet.
When has game information NOT been scattered about?
Before 3e, game information was found in multiple sourcebooks published by TSR *and* occasional sourcebooks published by a few licensed third-party publishers.
With 3e, game information was found in:
{lots of stuff}
Holy Wee Jas, this new-fangled interwebs thing gives folks a place to gripe about everything.
And even back then, I hated it. The scheme depends too much on the DM compulsively buying every product put out. Otherwise, either the DM has to refuse everything he doesn't have access to (which frustrates the player who put down good money and is probably excited about potential build options), or else forces the DM to allow in powers he hasn't prepared for (which can often completely nullify an otherwise interesting encounter, and even in the best of times can throw off a DM who likes having some sort of script).
Compendium helps some - it's worlds better than having to snap up each and every individual book - but I still dislike the idea that it's a form of DM tax. I'd consider paying to have every rule ever printed at my fingertips. I dislike being asked to pay so I can keep up with somebody who buys a book I may not care for.
And given how unlikely it is that multiple people at the table will all have access to the same power card, this edges into very uncomfortable territory. One of the stated aims of 3e was to avoid forcing me to buy things I didn't care for in order to pick up parts that I did. I'd be totally cool with specialty power cards that were just snazzy printings of pre-existing powers. I'd be cool with power cards for certain minis being introduced before the appropriate PHB's were released. I'd even be okay with unique monster stats being included along with DDM packs. But giving me character build options when I want minis seems pointless, and forcing me to buy minis if I want character build options is a huge step backwards.
Compendium helps some - it's worlds better than having to snap up each and every individual book - but I still dislike the idea that it's a form of DM tax. I'd consider paying to have every rule ever printed at my fingertips. I dislike being asked to pay so I can keep up with somebody who buys a book I may not care for.
So do what every DM I know did: when asked to use something from a book you don't own, borrow the book between sessions to read it over and decide. If it'll break your game, don't allow it.
One of the stated aims of 3e was to avoid forcing me to buy things I didn't care for in order to pick up parts that I did.
3e failed horribly at this. Classes, feats, prestige classes, monsters, spells, and items appeared in almost every single book released. In order to put together most characters, you ended up piecing together a single part from many, many books. Sometimes you had to choose between spend thirty bucks on a book for just one feat or Prestig Class, or not playing the concept you wanted to.
I'd be totally cool with specialty power cards that were just snazzy printings of pre-existing powers. I'd be cool with power cards for certain minis being introduced before the appropriate PHB's were released. I'd even be okay with unique monster stats being included along with DDM packs. But giving me character build options when I want minis seems pointless, and forcing me to buy minis if I want character build options is a huge step backwards.
They've already said these powers will appear in the Compendium, and that they may appear in Dragon or future books. Noone has said these powers will only appear on the card with the mini.
Think of it from a player's point of view: You need a mini for the Dragonborn Paladin you want to play. You go looking through the Hero packs and find the perfect mini in Divine Heros 1. How cool would it be to buy the pack, getting 2 mini's you're probably not going to use, and find a Paladin power in there to expand your options?
And even back then, I hated it. The scheme depends too much on the DM compulsively buying every product put out. Otherwise, either the DM has to refuse everything he doesn't have access to (which frustrates the player who put down good money and is probably excited about potential build options), or else forces the DM to allow in powers he hasn't prepared for (which can often completely nullify an otherwise interesting encounter, and even in the best of times can throw off a DM who likes having some sort of script).
This bit has been the same for...every single edition of D&D ever made. And every other RPG ever made. Except HERO System (where the splatbooks are really all fluff, and suggested builds, without new game mechanics). So, I don't see the problem. A DM either allows it, or doesn't, and the player either deals with it, or plays at a different table. Totally the status quo, only easier to handle thanks to:
Compendium helps some - it's worlds better than having to snap up each and every individual book - but I still dislike the idea that it's a form of DM tax. I'd consider paying to have every rule ever printed at my fingertips. I dislike being asked to pay so I can keep up with somebody who buys a book I may not care for.
The Compendium is one of the best tools ever for any RPG, and completely eliminates the very problem you have (having to buy all the splats), essentially free with a subscription to Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. In fact, it's half the price of the printed versions of those mags, and you get the Compendium on top of it. Again, I'm simply not seeing how this is anything but fantastic compared to the old way of buying D&D for the entirety of the game's existence.
And given how unlikely it is that multiple people at the table will all have access to the same power card, this edges into very uncomfortable territory. One of the stated aims of 3e was to avoid forcing me to buy things I didn't care for in order to pick up parts that I did. I'd be totally cool with specialty power cards that were just snazzy printings of pre-existing powers. I'd be cool with power cards for certain minis being introduced before the appropriate PHB's were released. I'd even be okay with unique monster stats being included along with DDM packs. But giving me character build options when I want minis seems pointless, and forcing me to buy minis if I want character build options is a huge step backwards.
It's in the Compendium, and you likely own a pen and paper to copy down the abilities verbatim from anyone who owns them, who did want the minis. If one of the aims of 3E was to prevent you from buying everything, it failed. Miserably. Horribly. Worse than every other version of D&D ever. 3.X had the biggest purchasing requirement of any version of D&D, hands down. It's actually not even close. If you meant to type "4E" in that particular statement...See: DDI Compendium.
If you are worried about power creep, that completely depends on the powers, which we haven't seen yet, so we cannot really make such a judgment. If these powers are all just cool new abilities, but fall within the established power curve and role for each class, then there is no power creep. There is power expansion (i.e., more options at the same power level, as opposed to creep's increasingly more powerful levels of power). This is no different from splats, in that regard. If you only want three powers, feats or items, in total, from an entire splatbook, that will cost you far more than buying one Hero pack for the same amount of info. Plus, you can sell or trade away the minis for something you do want more, highly mitigating the cost. On top of that, I'm sure online dealers will start selling the power cards loose really, really quickly for dirt cheap. So, for a few bucks, you can have all the cards from a set. For, I'm guessing around $15 or so, you can likely have all 18 power cards from an entire series of the hero minis. That's a much better bargain than buying some splatbook you barely use for a few choice abilities you really want. Plus...we still don't know if those power cards will be visible through the packaging, as the minis will be. If you can read the powers without opening the box, grab than pen and paper and copy those bad boys down the first day, never buy the minis, have a blast. Plus, once more...See: DDI Compendium.
A note on costs: Wizards will be releasing a new book that you can probably get for $20 every month. Some months see 3 books released. For $5 a month, you can get all the same mechanics content, plus all the tools they'll be releasing, plus Dungeon and Dragon. That price will likely go up in the future, but you can get 6 months now for the cost of a splat and a half.
Actually, the compendium is a refernece guide and it is missing so much information that you cannot safely say it 'replaces' the splat book.
The 3.x model was awful. Having to look in Sandstorm for a spell, in Races of the Wild for a spell, ect. was garbage. That sort of spreading out is bad.
I'm not going to buy minis, regardless of whether or not a "unique" power is packaged with them. Its a horrible way of distributing this stuff.
The Compendium is one of the best tools ever for any RPG, and completely eliminates the very problem you have (having to buy all the splats), essentially free with a subscription to Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. In fact, it's half the price of the printed versions of those mags, and you get the Compendium on top of it. Again, I'm simply not seeing how this is anything but fantastic compared to the old way of buying D&D for the entirety of the game's existence.
Except this is a flawed way of looking at it.
The correct way of looking at it is "I have to pay for stuff I don't want".
Lots of people simply don't use Dungeon content, or even Dragon content. And by lots, I really mean "almost all". I don't think I've ever had a single DM who would allow random stuff from Dragon.
A note on costs: Wizards will be releasing a new book that you can probably get for $20 every month. Some months see 3 books released. For $5 a month, you can get all the same mechanics content, plus all the tools they'll be releasing, plus Dungeon and Dragon. That price will likely go up in the future, but you can get 6 months now for the cost of a splat and a half.
Its also worth noting that you don't purchase even a book every month.
I have bought the Adventurer's Vault. I'm not sure what my next purchase will be; what I've seen of Martial Power so far is a mixture of total garbage and awesome stuff.
I do not have any of the FR books, though I've briefly browsed them.