The battlemind seems to be very influenced by the psychometabolic powers of ages past. However, the jaws/claws powers of editions past, AKA the psychometabolic powers that let you grow your own weapons, no longer exist. I would REALLY like to see a battlemind build that focuses on growing its own weapons: IE: dealing implement based melee range touch attacks and the like that are fluffed as damage dealt with "weapons" grown out of the battlemind's own body.
So you mean, like, exactly what you can already do with the Monk and a Ki Focus?
IE: dealing implement based melee range touch attacks and the like that are fluffed as damage dealt with "weapons" grown out of the battlemind's own body.
Ok, so you're cool with fluffing powers to be described however you like...
No. I don't. I mean fully augmentable, battlemind format, con based, defender style, powers with "shapeshifting" flavor.
...but if that easily re-fluffed stuff doesn't exactly use the mechanics you want, it's no good?
The only thing that they would have in common with monk's powers is the fact that they would be implement based melee range attacks. And if that is enough to make two things equate as the same, I should probably note that the monk then equates to the druid.
Yes, yes it does equate to the Druid, as what you're proposing is basically a half-druid Defender, who changes only part of his shape instead of all of it.
In fact, the monk has more in common with the druid then my suggestion does with the monk, because both the monk and the druid use the standard daily, encounter, at-will power distribution mechanics.
Please, let me request this thing that can be handled purely with fluff, except that I want it to have very specific mechanics.
I mean, seriously, the Monk is even Psionic now. You could easily describe his attacks with a Ki Focus as Psychometabolic--as turning your hands into wolf faces and whatnot. Why is that unsatisfactory? Because you want to be a Defender and do that?
Except that is not the philosophy of this game's design. This game has many classes in it, and I believe it is more interesting for it. Just because a rogue uses melee ranged weapon attacks and a fighter uses melee ranged weapon attacks doesn't mean the two play anything alike, in any shape or form. And the fluff for their weapon attacks isn't even that different! They both swing a weapon until it strikes an opponent. They both make melee based weapon attacks using the martial power source. And yet the two are nothing alike. The same is true when you compare the fighter to the warlord, and so on and so forth. Attempting to claim that any of these two are "exactly the same" simply because they both use melee range weapon attacks is a useless abstraction. It completely obfuscates the many thematic AND mechanical/tactical differences between any two such comparisons. For the same reason, trying to claim that the druid and the monk are the same is also a useless abstraction. Despite your claim that the two are the same, they are not. The druid and the monk are nothing alike. The monk's powers are designed to give a player a striker's role. A druid's are designed to give a player a controller's role. The two do not have the same class features. The two do not use the same equipment. The power's of the two do not even use the same mechanics: a druid uses beastform mechanics for its melee range touch attacks; a monk uses full discipline mechanics for its melee range touch attacks. The experience of playing the two classes is not the same.
What I want fits into the philosophy espoused by the mechanics of this game, not the philosophy of minimalism that you espouse. I make no apology for that, because I don't like your minimalist philosophy. What I want is something that has attack powers that are fluffed as shapeshifting psychometabolic attack powers, complete with the polymorph mechanical keyword, perhaps including such a mechanical novelty as lasting buffs until a new polymorph power is used; what I want is something that is mechanically tied to the defender role as expressed by the battlemind; what I want something that uses the Con attack stat, and that has powers designed to aid one in the tactical role of defense, ala such powers as lighting rush; what I want is something that uses the psionic power point mechanics; what I want is something that builds of the "psychic warrior/psychometabolic self-buffing defender" theme that the battlemind has already created for itself, and mechanically and thematically evokes the psychometabolic self-buffs of editions past which transformed the character's own body into a weapon by transforming his hands into massive metal claws, a sword, or massive fists of spikey iron, or whatever else. What you propose is not satisfactory because it does not offer me what I want. What I want is both mechanically and thematically different enough to warrant a new build based on the philosophy espoused by existing 4e classes and builds.
Now, if you have some sort of valid reason as to why such a new build should not exists, as opposed to your very invalid reason that relies on useless abstraction that obfuscates existing differences and a minimalist philosophy that is not shared by this game's existing design, feel free to post it. Otherwise, please stop. I find it a little tedious pointing out that what I want is not a refluffed monk, but rather something that is completely different from anything that currently exists in the game, for a large number of reasons. I find it a little tedious pointing out that the sky is blue. You can make as many useless abstractions in order to attempt to obfuscate these facts, but it does not change the fact that these remain facts: it is factual that the monk is not a defender, and its powers are not designed to benefit the character in the role of defending his party; it is factual that the monk does not use psionic power points; it is factual that the monk's powers are not polymorph powers; it is factual that the monk's powers do not use the Con attack stat; it is factual that what I want is something that is/does all of those things, and thus is best created using a new battlemind build.
Now, the dev team may or may not have time to create this build, may or may not be interested in what I am interested in, and may or may not share my interest in creating such a new build. I don't expect them to create this new build simply because I have asked. However, it is my right as a WotC consumer to provide feedback and tell them what I would like. This is what I would like. But I do expect you not to try and colonize my tastes by fraudulently claiming that what I am interested in can already be done via a little refluffing. I happen to know what I am intrested in better than you do, and I know that it can't.
To get to my point quickly, you said you wanted:
To use Psychometabolic style powers to grow your own weapons.
What you actually want is:
Defender styled Augmentable Melee Implement attacks.
See, because the first one is already doable, quite easily, with a slight refluff of the Monk and Druid, especially the druid because Swarm Druids can even tank pretty well (or, well, they could before the nerf to Hide Expertise).
I don't espouse minimalism, I espouse "fluff is meaningless to the end product, because anything can be fluffed as anything else."
If you played in my game, I'd be perfectly happy having you mechanically use a weapon (i.e. you'd pick one you could use for the damage, proficiency, and weapon group), but describe yourself as not carrying a weapon and having all your attacks involve growing them.
Oddly, my way would also be better for you overall, since Implements have just about zero feat support for non-arcane characters.
I also don't think you should get your hopes up here, because there are tons of things like this that are not available. There's no ranged defender, no Dex based Defender, etc., the list goes on. I believe that the developers tend to create totally new things before they worry about duplicating old things in new flavors, so if you really want the flavor you described, Monk or Druid is the way to go. Otherwise, you're going to wait a long time.
Now, having said that, you actually did hit on one idea that might work. Refluff the wielded weapon(s) and fluff them as polymorphed limbs. Granted, this does not address the polymorph keyword, but it's a decent hot fix until such a defender build option becomes available.
mplindustries: I think you are missing the OP's point entirely, as the OP has been trying to explain to you repeatedly. Feel free to pick a DEFENDER class that is capable of being refluffed into what he is proposing, but none exists.
I would just like to point you to the Daily Powers section of the Warden...
You could easily describe his attacks with a Ki Focus as Psychometabolic--as turning your hands into wolf faces and whatnot.
Holy crap, I think you just sold me on the concept, with just this one visual.
I want to play a Bitefist Monk now.
To get to my point quickly, you said you wanted:
To use Psychometabolic style powers to grow your own weapons.
What you actually want is:
Defender styled Augmentable Melee Implement attacks.
No, what I said is that I want a battlemind build which uses psychometabolic style powers to grow its own weapons. By extension, since I want this specifically for the battlemind, I also want defender styled augmentable melee implement attacks, or something along those lines. And no, refluffing does not cut it, for a large variety of reasons.
I don't espouse minimalism, I espouse "fluff is meaningless to the end product, because anything can be fluffed as anything else."
You are welcome to espouse that. I don't agree with that summation either. No matter how you fluff it, if the attack has a weapon keyword, and requires you to use a weapon, its a weapon attack. You can call it a hotdog power if you like, or whatever else, but it will still have the weapon keyword, still gain a bonus to hit from a characters proficiency with a weapon, and will still require that a character wield a weapon to use the power.
If you played in my game, I'd be perfectly happy having you mechanically use a weapon (i.e. you'd pick one you could use for the damage, proficiency, and weapon group), but describe yourself as not carrying a weapon and having all your attacks involve growing them.
I am glad I don't play in your games. That really doesn't sit well with me, for more reasons than I care to get into in this thread.
Oddly, my way would also be better for you overall, since Implements have just about zero feat support for non-arcane characters.
I also don't think you should get your hopes up here, because there are tons of things like this that are not available. There's no ranged defender, no Dex based Defender, etc., the list goes on. I believe that the developers tend to create totally new things before they worry about duplicating old things in new flavors, so if you really want the flavor you described, Monk or Druid is the way to go. Otherwise, you're going to wait a long time.
And here we have a few baseless opinions followed by a few facts that don't support your opinion one way or another. No, we don't have a ranged defender, or a dex based defender. We do, however, have rogues with Int as their secondary score, dual wielding fighters, dual wielding barbarians, and a host of other things that the community has asked for. Personally, I think that the request for a new build, based on mechanics (that I liked) from older editions of the game, that already has a lot to do with the battlemind as it has been constructed, is not such a far fetched request. I don't know if it will ever come into existence, but I would not be surprised to see such a build in a psionic power book somewhere down the line.
I was going to say that this sounds way too close to the Warden too…
Except that the warden does not have augmentable psionic at-will powers, his powers are all very nature themed, and they are all actually weapon powers as well. The warden does not grow his own weapons any more than the battlemind does. What I am requesting has more in common with the existing battlemind than it does with the warden. The only difference is that the existing battlemind modifies his body (by changing its density, increasing his own muscle mass, and whatever else) while wielding a weapon. I would like a build in which the battlemind grows his own weapon out of his body. That is all. Think something along the lines of what the character in Prototype does.
The only real problem is that transformation is really primal's bit. That said, all current primal transformation is A) Nature themed and B) Full body. If said build instead focused on small scale, single body part pick-n-mix transformation then we could pretty easily get away with it.
Along these lines, I'd suggest having the build's powers not have the polymorph keyword to ease refluffing and to allow the character to have more than one bodymod running at a time.
If you played in my game, I'd be perfectly happy having you mechanically use a weapon (i.e. you'd pick one you could use for the damage, proficiency, and weapon group), but describe yourself as not carrying a weapon and having all your attacks involve growing them.
I am glad I don't play in your games. That really doesn't sit well with me, for more reasons that I care to get into in this thread.
Seconded. The only way I'd allow this as both GM and Player is if the character was a warforged with an embedded weapon.
Personally, I'd have given all psionic classes access to the ki focus and a handful of implement attacks and made that the 'psionic class schtick' instead of the augmentation system. Alas, I don't work for WotC. ;)
As I understand it, all Cyber-Dave is asking for is that the battlemind should actually be able to do what its class picture in PHB3 shows it doing. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.
Personally, I'd have given all psionic classes access to the ki focus and a handful of implement attacks and made that the 'psionic class schtick' instead of the augmentation system. Alas, I don't work for WotC. ;)
I'm going to agree with Duskweaver here.
Class build flavors?
Heres some brainstorming for some flavors that the Psionic shapeshifter Battlemind build can explore.
The proposed Psi-shifter build reminds me of the mercurial shapeshifter android from Terminator 2. But here the mind is potent and resonates the mental bodily aura (Japanese 'ki', Norse 'hugr', Hebrew 'nefesh') that guides this shifting physical form.
Racial build considerations. Does this class flavor synergize best with the racial flavor of the Dwarf (Con-Wis) or of the Half-Elf (Con-Cha)? The Wis Dwarf would emphasize psychic awareness with undertones of earthy features. The Cha Half Elf would emphasize the force of will and the influence of ones bodily aura over the immediate environment. Undertones may share an elven affinity with natural features but would also emphasize a mercurial social grace.
Con-Wis Dwarf flavor
Con-Wis can work well as a guardian who is an irremovable bodyguard, a sentinel with psychic intuition to detect any threats.
The official picture shows a Dwarf Battlemind shapeshifting a weapon from hand, apparently with appropriate tree and soil flavor. Since this is the only Defender class whose ability scores synergize with the Dwarf, its worthwhile to ensure the mechanics remain open to (but not limited to) Dwarf flavor. The Battlemind could be very nice to express the 'mental ability' aspect of the Wise Dwarf. 'Liquid rock' flavor could work well. In the Norse mythology, certain dvergar could shapeshift into animals, apparently could sometimes meld with stone, and in case turned to stone at death.
Meanwhile, the flavor can be more like the Soulblade who forms the weapon out of the pure force of the bodily aura. For the Dwarf, the flavor can have the living earth of the floor swirling upward following the leylines of the bodily aura and melding with the body.
The especially wise flavor can focus on detection: a danger sense and a psychic perception that transcends mundane barriers. Outside of combat, the flavor can enjoy scrying, and divination themes. Foreseeing the threats against the defendee is the best way to safeguard them.
Con-Cha Half-Elf flavor
A Con-Cha Half-Elf flavor can emphasize the personal force of will. It can share many of the aura and nature flavors with the Dwarf. But the Half-Elf flavor can also emphasize the themes of social adaptability - and in the case of shapeshifting - awestriking visage and even mimicry. Diplomacy, Intimidation, and Bluff would play key roles in the flavor of the class. The class can become anything the character imagines with the physical power of the bodily aura to materialize that self-image.
Not only does the class shapeshift oneself, but potentially shapeshifts the defendees to escape harm perhaps causing hostile blades to phase thru them, or oppositely potentially shapeshifts the enemies, rooting their feet into solid floor, or blinding their senses variously, or vaporizing their weapons. A kind of Defender who could shield embattled defendees by melding them into the stone floors and walls could be cool.
The especially charismatic flavor can focus on transformation of anything or anyone within the bodily aura. Outside of combat, the flavor can enjoy fabricating items and even imbuing items with Psionic aura, as extensions of oneself that even other characters may employ.
Shapeshifting Combat Mechanics
Mechanically, it seems to suit the Ki focus well. Perhaps the shape-leaper Battlemind can form an attack equivalent to any Military weapon category at-will. Maybe get a single choice of a Superior weapon without resorting to feats, a total of two choices at Paragon, and three at Epic.
A Shapeshifting ... Defender
It easy to imagine a shapeshifter has a Striker, able to penetrate almost any barrier to neutralize a special target. (This is pretty much the mercurial T-1000 android from the Terminator movie.)
However, as a shapeshifting Defender, something about this class reminds me of the Hydra serpent from Greek mythology. When the hero cut off the monster's single head, two heads grew back. Then two more and two more and so on. While under attack, the hydra became more terrifying, more all-encompassing, more insurmountable.
In the case of D&D combat tactics, the shapeshifter would ... expand in someway, perhaps by size with reach or by toxic gaseous aura ... whenever more than one 'stickied' enemy attacks the shapeshifter or the defendee. These enemies get 'stickied' within the shapeshifters aura of influence.
I agree with some of what Duskweaver said. As in, I agree that it is reasonable that I want the battlemind be able to do what its class picture in the PHB 3 does. However, I am glad that they did not make the psionic class shtick "ki focus and a handful of implement attacks." I don't find that to be very psionic at all. It does not evoke the feel or flavor of psionic classes from earlier editions (though with new 4e mechanics) to me. On the other hand, I think the power point/augmentation system does that VERY well. So, personally, I am really happy they went with a power point/augmentation system. I really like that aspect of the psionic classes.
I don't think implement style is a very practical option or even vaguely representative of what you are asking for in fluff. I do, however, see two possibilities which seem to fit:
1) A series of Daily powers which meld any items in your hands and replace them with a virtual weapon until end of encounter. This could be a better-than-superior unique weapon with either auto-scaling enhancement bonus or maybe steal the enchantment off whatever weapon was in hand.
2) An alternate build with ki-focus proficiency and a (minor action?) ability to shape your hands into one of several natural weapon configurations with stats like a weapon. (In this case you use ki focus to supply the expected enhancement bonus and powers/properties/crit dice.)
These two approaches are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Going to an implement basis (with the exception of ki focus, or a swordmage-like general ability to use weapons as implements) leads to a punishing incompatibility between the new material and the old, which means it really ought to be a seperate class or something. Plus, it just doesn't make sense to me why I should be making 'implement' attacks when I rend someone with my claws, as opposed to, say, a gnoll clawfighter battlemind who would be making weapon attacks with his claws.
I don't think implement style is a very practical option or even vaguely representative of what you are asking for in fluff. I do, however, see two possibilities which seem to fit:
1) A series of Daily powers which meld any items in your hands and replace them with a virtual weapon until end of encounter. This could be a better-than-superior unique weapon with either auto-scaling enhancement bonus or maybe steal the enchantment off whatever weapon was in hand.
2) An alternate build with ki-focus proficiency and a (minor action?) ability to shape your hands into one of several natural weapon configurations with stats like a weapon. (In this case you use ki focus to supply the expected enhancement bonus and powers/properties/crit dice.)
These two approaches are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Going to an implement basis (with the exception of ki focus, or a swordmage-like general ability to use weapons as implements) leads to a punishing incompatibility between the new material and the old, which means it really ought to be a seperate class or something. Plus, it just doesn't make sense to me why I should be making 'implement' attacks when I rend someone with my claws, as opposed to, say, a gnoll clawfighter battlemind who would be making weapon attacks with his claws.
Please see the druid. It uses implement based claw and bite attacks for its beastform powers. It uses staffs as it's implement of choice. There is absolutely nothing incompatible between the old material and the idea I am requesting. There is also nothing impractical about the option I am requesting. Furthermore, based on prior existing mechanics, the option I am requesting is already the status quo for natural attacks made with one's own body, be it shaped (ala the Druid) or otherwise (ala the Monk).
The Paladin suffers from this.
There's also the thematic issue of being able to shape your hand into a serrated spike but not being able to use Bull's Strength with it.
The obvious solution is to grant the battlemind both the Weapon and Ki implements, and have the Metabolist's build-power become basic weapon creation, thus allowing access to all powers to all builds.
It occurs to me that this build may run into the issue of being mechanically (and to a degree thematically) similar to the ever-popular SoulKnife concept. If can't tell if this is good or bad.
Yeah. And probably a good thing.
If this proposed Battlemind build inherits the old Soulknife, it expands the appeal of the new Battlemind class. It makes sense mechanically and thematically, whether the character forms the soul weapon out of their 'ki' (that is, the force of their soul in the form of their bodily aura), or by using their ki to reshape the body itself, either way they would use the same mechanics.
Arguably, the new Monk build could inherent the old Soulknife, but it would be mechanically pointless because the Monk always does the same damage, regardless of using weapons or not, thus making the capability to reshape weapons moot.
The old Soulknife has close-combat flavor and works well for a Defender role, thus works well for the Battlemind class.
Otherwise an entirely new class would need appear for the Soulknife, that was a Striker that could meaningfully inflict different weapon-types. Perhaps there could be a new Soulknife that could be Jedi-style, Strikerish and gishy, who used telekinesis etc. But this telekinesis is already unlike the Soulknife. Moreover, the Monk already has telekinesis, telekinetic jumps, divination, energy wielding, etc, and can easily support a Jedi-style build. The Jedi 'lightsaber' would simply be a ki-focus implement for the Monk build. No need for a new Striker class if the Soulknife did anything beyond using a weapon.
When it comes to new Psionic classes, I prefer to see classes that have, you know, *mental* capabilities, rather than even more swordfighting capabilities. New mental classes need to epitomize telekinesis, telepathy, illusions (telekinetic-force and telepathic-phantasms), divination, and other mental flavors.
As-is, the current Battlemind can already support all of the physical applications of the ki, especially for melee combat, thus can accommodate well both the ki-weapon of the Soulknife and the polymorphing (psychometabolism) of the Psychic Warrior. A polymorphing Soulknife Battlemind build that can spontaneously change the shape of their ki weapon atwill, not only makes sense, but is interesting.