A New D&D In-Store Play Program - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mudbunny Jan 19, 2011 8:28:29	A New D&D In-Store Play Program If you think you have what it takes to brave the fiercest foes, fight the toughest battles, and conquer the vilest enemies, we have a new D&D play experience for you! Starting in September, gather your master tacticians and rules experts together to kick down the dungeon doors and begin the assault! The new Wizards Play Network in-store program pits tactically-minded players against a super challenging adventure where the difference between victory and defeat is dependent upon your game knowledge, ability to adapt, and a little bit of luck. You’ll pit your wits against some of the most challenging encounters you’ve ever played. Each adventure plays in just a few hours, but for many players, they’ll need to make more than one run at it in pursuit of victory. A season lasts 2 months, and stores can schedule their sessions at any time during the season. Bring extra character sheets. Bring Fortune Cards. You’ll need them. Begin your lair assault this September.
#2 Alter_Boy Jan 19, 2011 8:52:20	Interesting. I'd like to know more info, especially where this fits into the schedule vis-a-vis Encounters. Is it a weekly or monthly thing? Is it higher level than Encounters? Definately curious.
#3 Mock Jan 19, 2011 9:04:50	Sorta puts the kibosh on the "5E is coming! Repent now!" sandwich boards. Bummer. I was kinda hoping for a world-ending 5E announcement.
#4 Nyarlathotep Jan 19, 2011 9:07:10	Sorta puts the kibosh on the "5E is coming! Repent now!" sandwich boards. Bummer. I was kinda hoping for a world-ending 5E announcement. No, don't you get it? This starts in September and Gen Con is in August, this is OBVIOUSLY meant to support meant to support 5e, which they will spring on us at GenCon... (for the sarcasm impaired: Yes, that was.)
#5 ah_stormbringer Jan 19, 2011 9:13:41	Wow its using fortune cards well I got better things to do now.
#6 Mock Jan 19, 2011 9:14:22	Sorta puts the kibosh on the "5E is coming! Repent now!" sandwich boards. Bummer. I was kinda hoping for a world-ending 5E announcement. No, don't you get it? This starts in September and Gen Con is in August, this is OBVIOUSLY meant to support meant to support 5e, which they will spring on us at GenCon... (for the sarcasm impaired: Yes, that was.) OHHHHHHHHHHH. I see. Tricksy wizards, with their tricks. (I seriously was kinda looking forward to a 5E announcement; I figure it's come time to spend another $600-800 on gaming stuff).
#7 Janx_14 Jan 19, 2011 9:31:59	Wow its using fortune cards well I got better things to do now. All they have this year is game accessories, even if they are the largest source of powercreep ever. They gotta support their latest product! I wonder if this is essentials only or not. Doesn't say.
#8 frothsof Jan 19, 2011 9:34:38	this sounds somewhat interesting to me. not the fortune cards, i absolutely loathe that concept but i am curious to see what they call a challenging encounter and i think this will allow non essential characters (small victory)
#9 Mock Jan 19, 2011 9:45:23	Yeah, it sounds like Encounters: CharOp Version, so I figure it will include all available character possibilities.
#10 thaldryn Jan 19, 2011 9:51:14	I don't really care for D&D as a wargame... though I do like the idea of in-store play with some incentive for owners, this doesn't seem like the most effective approach.
#11 BilopTheFleshwarper Jan 19, 2011 9:51:44	So... what? double level encounters? 2 or more solo's at once? I like the idea of gloves off gaming, but the system is not really set up for fighting too much above your level, so I wonder how they are going to make it for... "tactical" players.
#12 andrewja Jan 19, 2011 10:08:09	It will just be encounters without any story, easy to write and get out quick and drives sales of the fortune cards. Very much like the delves which they run at the conventions.
#13 veronus Jan 19, 2011 14:28:23	I'm all about cards......to an extent....but I don't want to wake up 5 years from now and realize I was lured into a Deck Building Game.
#14 Damon_Tor Jan 19, 2011 14:47:46	Bring Fortune Cards. You’ll need them. There's a key phrase here. You’ll need them. Super.
#15 lokiare Jan 19, 2011 19:04:00	Bring Fortune Cards. You’ll need them. There's a key phrase here. You’ll need them. Super. I'll just bring the current top DPR king and tear through the mobs without using a single card...
#16 clem Jan 19, 2011 19:10:18	I'll just bring the current top DPR king and tear through the mobs without using a single card... You're assuming, of course, that they'll allow non-Essentials characters during play.
#17 Damon_Tor Jan 19, 2011 20:39:29	I'll just bring the current top DPR king and tear through the mobs without using a single card... You're assuming, of course, that they'll allow non-Essentials characters during play. They'd need to be real careful about that call. If the say no 4e, that's going to piss off the 4eE crowd. If they allow the waterhose, they'll be forced to acknowledge how imcompatible the two systems are in terms of balance as the mixed chars/teams dominate, balance for those teams leaving pure 4e or 4eE teams in the dust, or nerf things to oblivion and back until some sembalance of balance emerges. 4e leaders would have to get hosed pretty hard in terms of their granted attacks though. I can see the warlord/shaman rage already... and god help the warlord\|shaman hybrids.
#18 JonAult Jan 19, 2011 22:33:45	I remember last summer, after the "Essentials only" rule for S3 Encounters was announced, there was some complaining here on the forums (shocking, I know!). Chris Tulach replied in one of the threads talking about options folks had for playing non-Essentials characters, and mentioned in passing that: "We have programs that let folks drink from the fire hose when it comes to character creation - Living Forgotten Realms is one of them, and we'll be launching another, store-based one in 2011." This is probably the program he was talking about (unless there's going to be a third set of games, which seems unlikely), in which case that's a sign that it will be open to all 4E books & not just Essentials.
#19 undrave Jan 19, 2011 23:26:13	Sounds fun. Too bad the closest WOTC (DnD not MTG) supported store around here is two friggin hours away. WTH in Drummondville and not the capital?! You kiddin' me?
#20 Damon_Tor Jan 20, 2011 1:15:06	I remember last summer, after the "Essentials only" rule for S3 Encounters was announced, there was some complaining here on the forums (shocking, I know!). Chris Tulach replied in one of the threads talking about options folks had for playing non-Essentials characters, and mentioned in passing that: "We have programs that let folks drink from the fire hose when it comes to character creation - Living Forgotten Realms is one of them, and we'll be launching another, store-based one in 2011." This is probably the program he was talking about (unless there's going to be a third set of games, which seems unlikely), in which case that's a sign that it will be open to all 4E books & not just Essentials. Plans change, as the last few months have made abundantly clear. Fact is, we don't know what the hell they're doing and I'm not convinced they do either. Maybe the 2011 waterhose event was scrapped, and this is a different program, or maybe they still intend to nerf the lazybuilds (Aka, leaders that deal striker damage+intmod on their turns) to fall in line with the new "melee basic = at-will + diffused daily and strikers deal bonus damage whenever they want" system of balance essentials employs, or maybe they scrapped that plan when Heroes of Spell and Sword got axed. Even if we knew for a fact something was planned last year, I think it's safe to say plans have changed within WotC to one degree or another.
#21 Alter_Boy Jan 20, 2011 9:01:56	If the say no 4e, that's going to piss off the 4eE crowd. If they say no to 4e, they're going to piss off everyone, especially since Essentials is 4ed. Why the hell do I even need to say it?
#22 kairiroses Jan 20, 2011 11:15:45	If the say no 4e, that's going to piss off the 4eE crowd. If they say no to 4e, they're going to piss off everyone, especially since Essentials is 4ed. Why the hell do I even need to say it? Lol... I'm glad someone said it. The "lair assualt" program does sound quite interesting though... I could definately see my regular players totally getting behind this.
#23 Damon_Tor Jan 20, 2011 15:34:27	If the say no 4e, that's going to piss off the 4eE crowd. If they say no to 4e, they're going to piss off everyone, especially since Essentials is 4ed. Why the hell do I even need to say it? How would you like me to differentiate between 4e and 4e Essentials? I didn't call it 4.5e, did I? I called it 4e and 4eE: I'm not trying to take a jab here, I'm just calling them what people know them by. Would you prefer Pre-E and Post-E? The official term for Post-E is "Essentials+" which means "Essentials and later only, no '4e classic'" but there's not an official term I'm aware of for previous material, the stuff disallowed by Encounters. "-Esssentials" maybe?
#24 thax Jan 20, 2011 16:37:59	The overall separation of 4th edition "classic" from "Essentials" is a false one. The main thing is that Essentials is missing some stuff that might be considered 'extra' in the classic 4e, like Rituals, classes, some of the class features that has been replaced in the builds, and other side rules that fill out the character and the D&D experience. The player books are smaller books with kit builds (four each), basic rules and the lot, a lot of room in the book made to make the kit builds self sustained instead of like the normal builds that we saw in the power books. Both are 4E, no matter how many irate customers put their fingers in their ears and ignore that fact. "La la lah... I am not listening..." My overall resistance to it is the change to future products to this manor of development, to not have classes or that the Power sources are ending. This is what the new D&D experience in the stores are gonna promote.
#25 lokiare Jan 20, 2011 18:02:05	The overall separation of 4th edition "classic" from "Essentials" is a false one. The main thing is that Essentials is missing some stuff that might be considered 'extra' in the classic 4e, like Rituals, classes, some of the class features that has been replaced in the builds, and other side rules that fill out the character and the D&D experience. The player books are smaller books with kit builds (four each), basic rules and the lot, a lot of room in the book made to make the kit builds self sustained instead of like the normal builds that we saw in the power books. Both are 4E, no matter how many irate customers put their fingers in their ears and ignore that fact. "La la lah... I am not listening..." My overall resistance to it is the change to future products to this manor of development, to not have classes or that the Power sources are ending. This is what the new D&D experience in the stores are gonna promote. The problem with this assessment is that WotC is differentiating them by not allowing pre-E in some of their events. So by that very act they are dividing up 4E into pre-E and post-E. So I'd say they have a point...
#26 thax Jan 20, 2011 18:11:39	Indeed, the company wants to sell current material, that is material that is newer than the Core books. Wizards has exacerbated the debate by doing this but as far as compatibility is concerned it is all 4th edition.
#27 lokiare Jan 20, 2011 18:45:52	Indeed, the company wants to sell current material, that is material that is newer than the Core books. Wizards has exacerbated the debate by doing this but as far as compatibility is concerned it is all 4th edition. Oh, I agree, they are completely compatible, but because of the WotC chosen divide, we need some way to differentiate between the two. I prefer: Pre-E - Before the introduction of Essentials. Post-E - At the point Essentials was introduced and beyond (as in Essentials style design). Pre-E design that comes out post-E I still consider pre-E (though short of a few articles this has been nil)...
#28 Damon_Tor Jan 20, 2011 21:35:21	Indeed, the company wants to sell current material, that is material that is newer than the Core books. Wizards has exacerbated the debate by doing this but as far as compatibility is concerned it is all 4th edition. So what do you suggest we call the older material when discussing the possibility that it is disallowed at Wizard-sponsored events? Understand you disagree with the need for a term re: balance issues, but the elimination of said content at official events is precedented and ongoing.
#29 robertread3 Jan 22, 2011 2:26:21	oh _____ the ____ yes so going cant wait
#30 malisteen Jan 22, 2011 7:29:28	I'm curious about this program, but not excited or optimistic until I hear more of the details. 1) Are those terrible fortune cards 'needed' as in the adventures are hard and more advantages are good, or are they 'needed' as in you're not allowed to play without them? I'm pretty sure I can write up a pre-e character as powerful as a post-e character with the cards so theoretically I might be ok without them. Being able to play without the cards is an absolute necessity for me. 2) Is pre-e material even allowed at all? Another necessity. 3) Will these adventures be at mid or higher level? Yet another necessity. I've played through low levels enough on both sides of the screen in 4e that I simply don't have any interest in a game that starts below paragon at this point. 4) Will the adventures be disconnected one shots? I'm a busy person with an irregular schedule. If missing a session or dying results in serious penalties to future sessions, then it's not even worth considering for me. questions 2-4 are the reason encounters has nothing to offer me. Nothing against encounters, I'm sure it's fine for what it is, I just hope that this will be more then just a harder version of the same.
#31 robertread3 Jan 22, 2011 13:29:41	I'm curious about this program, but not excited or optimistic until I hear more of the details. 1) Are those terrible fortune cards 'needed' as in the adventures are hard and more advantages are good, or are they 'needed' as in you're not allowed to play without them? I'm pretty sure I can write up a pre-e character as powerful as a post-e character with the cards so theoretically I might be ok without them. Being able to play without the cards is an absolute necessity for me. 2) Is pre-e material even allowed at all? Another necessity. 3) Will these adventures be at mid or higher level? Yet another necessity. I've played through low levels enough on both sides of the screen in 4e that I simply don't have any interest in a game that starts below paragon at this point. 4) Will the adventures be disconnected one shots? I'm a busy person with an irregular schedule. If missing a session or dying results in serious penalties to future sessions, then it's not even worth considering for me. questions 2-4 are the reason encounters has nothing to offer me. Nothing against encounters, I'm sure it's fine for what it is, I just hope that this will be more then just a harder version of the same. 1. it clearly says here www.wizards.com/WPN/Sales/Article.aspx?x... they are not required for anything even encounters, if you wanna use em go right ahead though 2. www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4... dosent say weather or not you can, but i would think that they would its for advanced players and why would you make advanced players use the essentials basic minded material? 3. magic 8 ball says "ask again later" 4. if the style of play isent your thing, spend your evenings relaxing at home, no one will force you to come, unless you have incredibly intimidating friends
#32 Neutronium_Dragon Jan 22, 2011 13:59:05	#1: Not quite true. "For some Wizards Play Network programs aimed at experienced players, Fortune Card purchase will be a requirement to participate, but our broadly-appealing programs like D&D Encounters will feature their use without such a requirement." Encounters doesn't require them, but this is probably one of those "aimed at experienced players" programs.
#33 Damon_Tor Jan 22, 2011 17:42:49	#1: Not quite true. "For some Wizards Play Network programs aimed at experienced players, Fortune Card purchase will be a requirement to participate, but our broadly-appealing programs like D&D Encounters will feature their use without such a requirement." Encounters doesn't require them, but this is probably one of those "aimed at experienced players" programs. Well damn. Where'd you find that quote? They are literally mandatory. ... Wow.
#34 robertread3 Jan 22, 2011 20:48:21	i did not read carefully enough you are correct neutronium_dragon either way no big deal its not like you HAVE to buy 20 boosters to get uber l33t cardz i mean if i have to ill just buy one, swap with buddies who also bought one and go merrily skipping along im actually amazed they are required for encounters, i mean on encounters night you could have like 5-15 people in your store and sell only a few bits of candy and soda
#35 malisteen Jan 22, 2011 21:47:37	Wow. Cards literally required. I had hoped this might be an organized play D&D thing I might actually want to participate in. Oh, well. Maybe there are some people that enjoy encounters, or will enjoy this, but WotC does seem to be going out of their way to leave me without any motivation to participate.
#36 frothsof Jan 22, 2011 21:51:43	no way will i pay for those cards to play. sane store owners wont require it
#37 Style75 Jan 22, 2011 22:14:06	no way will i pay for those cards to play. sane store owners wont require it I agree with you, I hate the cards and don't want to use them. Ever. The problem is that this new uber-battle program has been designed with the cards in mind ( "you're going to need them" ) knowing full well that the cards represent massive power creep (power leap). If it is going to be tough with the cards, it'll probably be unplayable without them. Which I'm sure is what WotC has planned all along.
#38 malisteen Jan 23, 2011 10:42:37	I agree with you, I hate the cards and don't want to use them. Ever. The problem is that this new uber-battle program has been designed with the cards in mind ( "you're going to need them" ) knowing full well that the cards represent massive power creep (power leap). If it is going to be tough with the cards, it'll probably be unplayable without them. Which I'm sure is what WotC has planned all along. The problem isn't that the adventures would be too hard without them. They're not going to require the absolute top end of optimization, and we can pretty easily come up with optimized characters drawing from all 4e material that would be stronger even without cards then, say, an optimized warlock would be even with them. Basically, no matter how hard they make it, as long as it's still even vaguely level appropriate we can make characters that can beat it without the cards. The cards are power creep to be sure, they aren't sufficiently huge power creep that it's possible to design adventures that are beatable with the cards, but impossible without them. The problem is quotes indicating that the cards will be literally required to play. As in "don't have cards? then you aren't allowed at this event".
#39 thax Jan 23, 2011 11:09:22	I would likely buy the cards, open the booster and tear them in half, then throw them in the trash. "OK, I bought the cards as requested, but that doesn't mean I am gonna use them."
#40 kairiroses Jan 23, 2011 18:51:23	I would likely buy the cards, open the booster and tear them in half, then throw them in the trash. "OK, I bought the cards as requested, but that doesn't mean I am gonna use them." lol ... like the character in "Firestarter" (book, not movie) who buys packs of cigarettes just to unroll them and rip them up as a form of protest. The problem with "protests" like this is that all the number-crunchers see is that sales of the cards are high. You haven't changed anything and don't even walk away with a playable product. You might as well burn your money. If you feel that strongly against the cards, then you're better off simply never a single card. That way you protest in a way that Wizards will actually notice and you're not out any money. Personally, I'm wary of the cards but haven't really made up my mind one way or the other just yet. I think I'm probably going to buy a pack or two and see what I think of them. Then, if I like them, then I'll buy a pack here, a pack there, and basically just deal them out randomly amongst my players at the beginning of each gaming session (or something along those lines, like a booster draft or something.)
#41 Alter_Boy Jan 23, 2011 22:43:17	The problem is quotes indicating that the cards will be literally required to play. As in "don't have cards? then you aren't allowed at this event". I'm currently allowing a Warlord in my Encounters campaign. In the next season, I'm going to allow the reward cards from the past seasons in lieu of the Fortune Cards. I'll strongly promote Essentials and Fortune cards, but I won't turn anyone away for it. If this were a tournament and money/ratings were on the line, I'd be stricter. But the point of Essentials is to bring people into FLGSs on a weekly basis, and the store owner would probably be more angry with losing a regular player than not promoting the latest hotness.
#42 Astromath Jan 24, 2011 6:18:01	My thinking is that if they "require" fortune cards for the encounters, they will have a pack for each character included with the encounters set. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Especailly, if some of us start the encounters a week early (like us). As for the rewards cards, it is in their description that they can be used for any encounter campaign.
#43 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Jan 24, 2011 12:54:43	no way will i pay for those cards to play. sane store owners wont require it Sane store owners either go on the honor system, where customers are expected to buy something to pay for the table space, or else a direct fee on table space which is generally waived if you purchase something. I've never seen a store owner mind or care if your purchase is in any way related to the game you're playing at the moment. Why should they? And also the trouble with the Fortune cards is that unlike Magic cards, they have edition lock--they're tied to the current ruleset, as opposed to Magic where I can pull out an old Alpha deck and still play the game with no trouble against people playing with current decks. Apart from requiring them as a fee to play certain tournaments, I really can't see anyone using them.
#44 tmacsmash Jan 24, 2011 17:57:08	This is all going to be at the DM's discretion (just like most things). They may be required by WotC, but if no one at the table wants to use them what DM is seriously going to make them? And who knows you may even get a pack provided for you (my local shop already has for Encounters). Are you going to turn down free stuff out of spite?
#45 tmacsmash Jan 25, 2011 10:45:07	This is all going to be at the DM's discretion (just like most things). They may be required by WotC, but if no one at the table wants to use them what DM is seriously going to make them? And who knows you may even get a pack provided for you (my local shop already has for Encounters). Are you going to turn down free stuff out of spite? Very few game store owners have enough inventory overload to give away free boosters of a new product. I would not take even a free sample of these cards in any event. D&D is not a CCG. That may be, and I'd consider myself lucky that my shop was generous and gave all the Encounters players a free pack in order to be ready for next season. Honestly this product isn't for me, but it feels no different than the reward cards (only you get to use a lot more of them per encounter). While my one pack isn't enough to make a deck as far as the rules are concerned (it would take 2-3 packs to make one correctly), I highly doubt anyone will get up in arms if you don't meet regulations. All I was trying to say is don't refuse to play the program because it's trying to push a product you don't want (they're a business, that's what they do). You may not even be forced to use it, and for all you (not necessarily you TD, but anybody reading this) know you may like it (I probably won't, but I'll give it a try). And as an aside the minis made D&D a CCG already. Thankfully WotC went to tokens in box sets.
#46 malisteen Jan 25, 2011 10:58:10	I'm not even that averse to cards. But I am hugely averse to these cards, on a number of grounds, but the biggest is this: It adds multiple extra steps to each players' turn, drawing out combat and inserting an extra barrier to role playing immersion during combat. 4e combats didn't need to be longer or less immersive. Quite the opposite, in fact, on both accounts. I wouldn't mind cards for random encounters, or monster stat cards. I actually think random environmental effect cards that impact all participants in an encounter would be interesting. But these cards, and the distracting little minigame that they become on the table, are the exact opposite of what I want.
#47 tmacsmash Jan 25, 2011 11:06:47	I'm not even that averse to cards. But I am hugely averse to these cards, on a number of grounds, but the biggest is this: It adds multiple extra steps to each players' turn, drawing out combat and inserting an extra barrier to role playing immersion during combat. 4e combats didn't need to be longer or less immersive. Quite the opposite, in fact, on both accounts. I wouldn't mind cards for random encounters, or monster stat cards. I actually think random environmental effect cards that impact all participants in an encounter would be interesting. But these cards, and the distracting little minigame that they become on the table, are the exact opposite of what I want. I've had the same thought, but I'll see when I play next season. I think I'm right, but then I think I'm right about a lot of things.
#48 Style75 Jan 26, 2011 12:53:26	All I was trying to say is don't refuse to play the program because it's trying to push a product you don't want (they're a business, that's what they do). This is exactly why we should refuse to play the program. If we agree to play the game this way and if people buy the cards, then you can be 100% guaranteed that new rules for D&D 4e/5e/6e/ etc. will have CCG mechanics baked right into them. WotC needs to be sent a message that CCG doesn't belong in D&D. There's really only two ways to do it. The first is to not buy the cards. The second is to refuse to play Encounters or LFR with these cards. Encounters is WotC flagship D&D public play program. Volunteer DM's are the engine that drives the encounters program. If DM's like myself pull out over fortune cards, WotC will be forced to either A) scrap encounters or B) scrap fortune cards. My hope is that they'd scrap the cards. I will not DM any Encounters session with these cards. I do not want people using real world money to get an advantage in D&D. It's against the spirit of the game.
#49 tmacsmash Jan 26, 2011 13:59:16	All I was trying to say is don't refuse to play the program because it's trying to push a product you don't want (they're a business, that's what they do). This is exactly why we should refuse to play the program. If we agree to play the game this way and if people buy the cards, then you can be 100% guaranteed that new rules for D&D 4e/5e/6e/ etc. will have CCG mechanics baked right into them. WotC needs to be sent a message that CCG doesn't belong in D&D. There's really only two ways to do it. The first is to not buy the cards. The second is to refuse to play Encounters or LFR with these cards. Encounters is WotC flagship D&D public play program. Volunteer DM's are the engine that drives the encounters program. If DM's like myself pull out over fortune cards, WotC will be forced to either A) scrap encounters or B) scrap fortune cards. My hope is that they'd scrap the cards. I will not DM any Encounters session with these cards. I do not want people using real world money to get an advantage in D&D. It's against the spirit of the game. Whether people play the program or not will not send a message about the cards. That will determine if the program is successful. Only the sales of the cards will determine if the cards are successful. If people don't actually use them in these programs then the cards probably won't be successful, and I never said you should use the cards if you have to pay for them (hell I wouldn't use them if they weren't provided to me). There is no way the game can't work if you don't use the cards (it's probably harder though, but who cares). There is simply no way of knowing what this program will be like now (so little info and so far away), and there is even less of a way of knowing until you try it (you may think or have an idea, but that isn't knowing). On a final note this program starts in Sept. and the cards start selling in Feb. Wizards will probably know whether these have been a success or failure by the time that program starts up (which is why I'm confused by it's gap). The cards may not even be an issue by then, and maybe they'll try to push another product on you instead. This season of Encounters was supposed to incorporate Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword and Spell, but that went bye bye.
#50 Alter_Boy Jan 27, 2011 9:16:20	Regarding the Fortune cards in play: Two of my players used a deck of Fortune Cards (freebies from the store) last night and it was readily apparent when the cards would or wouldn't be used. Prevent falling damage - Are you jumping down or not? Not attack to get +4 to defenses - You're going to attack or not? The "chokepoints" are fairly simple to resolve, and that was for people who didn't pre-build their decks for their PCs. A well-built deck should be built around the playstyle of the player and thus be easily resolved. Unless said player is a ditherer...
#51 FitzTheRuke Jan 28, 2011 0:47:44	Yeah I don't like 'em in theory either but I'll have to give 'em a try first. I just read the Phantom Brigade module. Looks like it's going to be really great. Worst case scenario: If you don't like the cards (after trying them) don't use them.
#52 Damon_Tor Jan 28, 2011 1:00:29	Reading the notes from the expo today: they discussed the new program, but did not discuss if the program was Essentials+. Was there really nobody that wanted to ask this question, or was it a question they just didn't want to answer?
#53 lokiare Jan 28, 2011 2:22:53	Reading the notes from the expo today: they discussed the new program, but did not discuss if the program was Essentials+. Was there really nobody that wanted to ask this question, or was it a question they just didn't want to answer? I told you they would field the questions...
#54 tmacsmash Jan 30, 2011 19:36:44	Here are the notes from the expo provided by baldmangames.com. New In-Store Event D&D Forunte Cards Strongly Suggested Starting in Sept One DEADLY Encounter BYOC - Bring your own character Event name TBD (stay tuned) Good chance your group will get CRUSHED. VERY good chance Multiple Objectives - not JUST “kill the monster” Can retry with a new group if you fail More notes from a different conference. Name is set, but hasn’t cleared a trademark search so it can’t be shared yet. Born from what happen at conventions Things like the Delve and Ultimate Delve Want to bring that Convention spectacle back to the stores Want people standing around tables, drawing in the attention of others with their excitement Geared for the super-tactical players Will likely requie multiple plays to “solve” the tactical puzzles Organizers can schedule it whenever is appropriate Stores and Organizers can use the program to their benefit Players can try to get this run around their availability Starts in Sept Will have a kit like D&D Encounters One kit covers 2 months Store can schedule however the like 6 Kits a year Hopefully this helps everyone, and maybe some of paranoid skeptics will cease. Big things I got from it were cards aren't required, but do help. You can play whenever, so long a game is set up. It's very hard and you will die (supposedly). Sounds like there's no story either, but I could be wrong there. As for the essentials thing I never got the impression it was essentials only. By Mearls own words essentials is meant for beginners. The previous material is meant for people who have experience with D&D. Since this game is for the experienced player I'd say any and all classes will be accepted, but thats a guess.
#55 FitzTheRuke Jan 31, 2011 0:29:09	I'm actually really looking forward to this.
#56 lokiare Jan 31, 2011 3:02:06	I so want to walk in there with a DPR king using cheese and stomp on thier so called "hard" encounters...
#57 dragonpimp Jan 31, 2011 10:58:33	I so want to walk in there with a DPR king using cheese and stomp on thier so called "hard" encounters... I totally agree, brother! -THE Dragon Pimp
#58 mudbunny Jan 31, 2011 11:21:58	Reading the notes from the expo today: they discussed the new program, but did not discuss if the program was Essentials+. Was there really nobody that wanted to ask this question, or was it a question they just didn't want to answer? I told you they would field the questions... So you have proof, or are you just making the rather large leap from "the question wasn't asked" to "WotC refused to answer/prevented the question from being asked?"
#59 Timmeh Jan 31, 2011 11:36:10	All I was trying to say is don't refuse to play the program because it's trying to push a product you don't want (they're a business, that's what they do). This is exactly why we should refuse to play the program. If we agree to play the game this way and if people buy the cards, then you can be 100% guaranteed that new rules for D&D 4e/5e/6e/ etc. will have CCG mechanics baked right into them. WotC needs to be sent a message that CCG doesn't belong in D&D. There's really only two ways to do it. The first is to not buy the cards. The second is to refuse to play Encounters or LFR with these cards. Encounters is WotC flagship D&D public play program. Volunteer DM's are the engine that drives the encounters program. If DM's like myself pull out over fortune cards, WotC will be forced to either A) scrap encounters or B) scrap fortune cards. My hope is that they'd scrap the cards. I will not DM any Encounters session with these cards. I do not want people using real world money to get an advantage in D&D. It's against the spirit of the game. Whether people play the program or not will not send a message about the cards. That will determine if the program is successful. Only the sales of the cards will determine if the cards are successful. If people don't actually use them in these programs then the cards probably won't be successful, and I never said you should use the cards if you have to pay for them (hell I wouldn't use them if they weren't provided to me). There is no way the game can't work if you don't use the cards (it's probably harder though, but who cares). There is simply no way of knowing what this program will be like now (so little info and so far away), and there is even less of a way of knowing until you try it (you may think or have an idea, but that isn't knowing). On a final note this program starts in Sept. and the cards start selling in Feb. Wizards will probably know whether these have been a success or failure by the time that program starts up (which is why I'm confused by it's gap). The cards may not even be an issue by then, and maybe they'll try to push another product on you instead. This season of Encounters was supposed to incorporate Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword and Spell, but that went bye bye. I wouldn't really say that. By not buying the fortune cards and not attending the games due to fortune cards, you show a clear signal. #1 is that you won't buy fortune cards. #2 is that you're not willing to put up with this kind of a requirement to buy a product that you don't like. And #2 can be a very important signal to send.
#60 mudbunny Jan 31, 2011 11:40:53	I wouldn't really say that. By not buying the fortune cards and not attending the games due to fortune cards, you show a clear signal. #1 is that you won't buy fortune cards. #2 is that you're not willing to put up with this kind of a requirement to buy a product that you don't like. And #2 can be a very important signal to send. That only works if WotC knows that people aren't attending the new program beacuse of the potential to use fortune cards. If all they know is that the attendance is low, how are they to know if it is because (a) the new program is unpopular; (b) because people don't like Fortune Cards, and are thus not attending the new program because it allows you to use fortune cards; (c) it conflicts with Big Bang Theory or Leverage.
#61 tmacsmash Jan 31, 2011 11:54:14	I wouldn't really say that. By not buying the fortune cards and not attending the games due to fortune cards, you show a clear signal. #1 is that you won't buy fortune cards. #2 is that you're not willing to put up with this kind of a requirement to buy a product that you don't like. And #2 can be a very important signal to send. Like mudbunny said there are too many variables to determine why this program will or won't be successful. Add to it the fact that the cards don't appear to be required based on statements from D&DXP, the cards themselves no longer become a valid excuse. Maybe it isn't successful because it's meant for experienced players, and it intimidates too many newer or less "skilled" players thereby limiting the pool of players. Maybe nobody can agree on a time that works to set up the encounter. Maybe the idea of a single encounter doesn't appeal to enough people. There are countless reason why this program may or may not work. Without a survey they won't know, but I'm guessing WotC has probably done something like that before getting this far.
#62 FitzTheRuke Jan 31, 2011 13:08:03	I'm actually really looking forward to this. Well at least someone is. Sounds exceptionally stupid to me. Damn CCGs in a RPG. I wasn't talking about the cards. I was talking about the "hard encounters". Sounds like fun. We'll know long before then if the cards are something we can live with or can live without.
#63 FitzTheRuke Jan 31, 2011 20:17:49	I wasn't talking about the cards. I was talking about the "hard encounters". Sounds like fun. We'll know long before then if the cards are something we can live with or can live without. Yes the "hard" encounters sound cool. I know the answer to the CCG question now. Howeer last I heard the buy in for the "hard" encounters was buying the CCG. Not going to happen on my end. I own a store that will be running the game (If I'm not running them I'll be playing them) and I don't care what the idea is - I won't be "forcing" anyone to buy anything to play. I expect most FLGS arelike that. Sure, it would be nice if you don't be a total **** and show up at the store to play whilst buying all your books on Amazon, but that's just showing your FLGS some respect. Certainly the packs will be available for anyone who wants to "play along" with WotC's promotion (and or give the cards a try before dismising them.)

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

mudbunny

Jan 19, 2011 8:28:29

If you think you have what it takes to brave the fiercest foes, fight the toughest battles, and conquer the vilest enemies, we have a new D&D play experience for you! Starting in September, gather your master tacticians and rules experts together to kick down the dungeon doors and begin the assault!

The new Wizards Play Network in-store program pits tactically-minded players against a super challenging adventure where the difference between victory and defeat is dependent upon your game knowledge, ability to adapt, and a little bit of luck. You’ll pit your wits against some of the most challenging encounters you’ve ever played. Each adventure plays in just a few hours, but for many players, they’ll need to make more than one run at it in pursuit of victory. A season lasts 2 months, and stores can schedule their sessions at any time during the season.

Bring extra character sheets. Bring Fortune Cards. You’ll need them.

Begin your lair assault this September.

Alter_Boy

Jan 19, 2011 8:52:20

Interesting. I'd like to know more info, especially where this fits into the schedule vis-a-vis Encounters. Is it a weekly or monthly thing? Is it higher level than Encounters? Definately curious.

Mock

Jan 19, 2011 9:04:50

Sorta puts the kibosh on the "5E is coming! Repent now!" sandwich boards.

Bummer. I was kinda hoping for a world-ending 5E announcement.

Nyarlathotep

Jan 19, 2011 9:07:10

Sorta puts the kibosh on the "5E is coming! Repent now!" sandwich boards.

Bummer. I was kinda hoping for a world-ending 5E announcement.

No, don't you get it? This starts in September and Gen Con is in August, this is OBVIOUSLY meant to support meant to support 5e, which they will spring on us at GenCon...

(for the sarcasm impaired: Yes, that was.)

ah_stormbringer

Jan 19, 2011 9:13:41

Wow its using fortune cards well I got better things to do now.

Mock

Jan 19, 2011 9:14:22

Sorta puts the kibosh on the "5E is coming! Repent now!" sandwich boards.

Bummer. I was kinda hoping for a world-ending 5E announcement.

No, don't you get it? This starts in September and Gen Con is in August, this is OBVIOUSLY meant to support meant to support 5e, which they will spring on us at GenCon...

(for the sarcasm impaired: Yes, that was.)

OHHHHHHHHHHH. I see. Tricksy wizards, with their tricks.

(I seriously was kinda looking forward to a 5E announcement; I figure it's come time to spend another $600-800 on gaming stuff).

Janx_14

Jan 19, 2011 9:31:59

Wow its using fortune cards well I got better things to do now.

All they have this year is game accessories, even if they are the largest source of powercreep ever. They gotta support their latest product!

I wonder if this is essentials only or not. Doesn't say.

frothsof

Jan 19, 2011 9:34:38

this sounds somewhat interesting to me. not the fortune cards, i absolutely loathe that concept but i am curious to see what they call a challenging encounter and i think this will allow non essential characters (small victory)

Mock

Jan 19, 2011 9:45:23

Yeah, it sounds like Encounters: CharOp Version, so I figure it will include all available character possibilities.

#10

thaldryn

Jan 19, 2011 9:51:14

I don't really care for D&D as a wargame... though I do like the idea of in-store play with some incentive for owners, this doesn't seem like the most effective approach.

#11

BilopTheFleshwarper

Jan 19, 2011 9:51:44

So... what? double level encounters? 2 or more solo's at once?

I like the idea of gloves off gaming, but the system is not really set up for fighting too much above your level, so I wonder how they are going to make it for... "tactical" players.

#12

andrewja

Jan 19, 2011 10:08:09

It will just be encounters without any story, easy to write and get out quick and drives sales of the fortune cards.

Very much like the delves which they run at the conventions.

#13

veronus

Jan 19, 2011 14:28:23

I'm all about cards......to an extent....but I don't want to wake up 5 years from now and realize I was lured into a Deck Building Game.

#14

Damon_Tor

Jan 19, 2011 14:47:46

Bring Fortune Cards. You’ll need them.

There's a key phrase here.

You’ll need them.

Super.

#15

lokiare

Jan 19, 2011 19:04:00

Bring Fortune Cards. You’ll need them.

There's a key phrase here.

You’ll need them.

Super.

I'll just bring the current top DPR king and tear through the mobs without using a single card...

#16

clem

Jan 19, 2011 19:10:18

I'll just bring the current top DPR king and tear through the mobs without using a single card...

You're assuming, of course, that they'll allow non-Essentials characters during play.

#17

Damon_Tor

Jan 19, 2011 20:39:29

I'll just bring the current top DPR king and tear through the mobs without using a single card...

You're assuming, of course, that they'll allow non-Essentials characters during play.

They'd need to be real careful about that call. If the say no 4e, that's going to piss off the 4eE crowd. If they allow the waterhose, they'll be forced to acknowledge how imcompatible the two systems are in terms of balance as the mixed chars/teams dominate, balance for those teams leaving pure 4e or 4eE teams in the dust, or nerf things to oblivion and back until some sembalance of balance emerges. 4e leaders would have to get hosed pretty hard in terms of their granted attacks though. I can see the warlord/shaman rage already... and god help the warlord|shaman hybrids.

#18

JonAult

Jan 19, 2011 22:33:45

I remember last summer, after the "Essentials only" rule for S3 Encounters was announced, there was some complaining here on the forums (shocking, I know!). Chris Tulach replied in one of the threads talking about options folks had for playing non-Essentials characters, and mentioned in passing that:

"We have programs that let folks drink from the fire hose when it comes to character creation - Living Forgotten Realms is one of them, and we'll be launching another, store-based one in 2011."

This is probably the program he was talking about (unless there's going to be a third set of games, which seems unlikely), in which case that's a sign that it will be open to all 4E books & not just Essentials.

#19

undrave

Jan 19, 2011 23:26:13

Sounds fun. Too bad the closest WOTC (DnD not MTG) supported store around here is two friggin hours away.

WTH in Drummondville and not the capital?! You kiddin' me?

#20

Damon_Tor

Jan 20, 2011 1:15:06

I remember last summer, after the "Essentials only" rule for S3 Encounters was announced, there was some complaining here on the forums (shocking, I know!). Chris Tulach replied in one of the threads talking about options folks had for playing non-Essentials characters, and mentioned in passing that:

"We have programs that let folks drink from the fire hose when it comes to character creation - Living Forgotten Realms is one of them, and we'll be launching another, store-based one in 2011."

This is probably the program he was talking about (unless there's going to be a third set of games, which seems unlikely), in which case that's a sign that it will be open to all 4E books & not just Essentials.

Plans change, as the last few months have made abundantly clear. Fact is, we don't know what the hell they're doing and I'm not convinced they do either. Maybe the 2011 waterhose event was scrapped, and this is a different program, or maybe they still intend to nerf the lazybuilds (Aka, leaders that deal striker damage+intmod on their turns) to fall in line with the new "melee basic = at-will + diffused daily and strikers deal bonus damage whenever they want" system of balance essentials employs, or maybe they scrapped that plan when Heroes of Spell and Sword got axed.

Even if we knew for a fact something was planned last year, I think it's safe to say plans have changed within WotC to one degree or another.

#21

Alter_Boy

Jan 20, 2011 9:01:56

If the say no 4e, that's going to piss off the 4eE crowd.

If they say no to 4e, they're going to piss off everyone, especially since Essentials is 4ed.

Why the hell do I even need to say it?

#22

kairiroses

Jan 20, 2011 11:15:45

If the say no 4e, that's going to piss off the 4eE crowd.

If they say no to 4e, they're going to piss off everyone, especially since Essentials is 4ed.

Why the hell do I even need to say it?

Lol... I'm glad someone said it.

The "lair assualt" program does sound quite interesting though... I could definately see my regular players totally getting behind this.

#23

Damon_Tor

Jan 20, 2011 15:34:27

If the say no 4e, that's going to piss off the 4eE crowd.

If they say no to 4e, they're going to piss off everyone, especially since Essentials is 4ed.

Why the hell do I even need to say it?

How would you like me to differentiate between 4e and 4e Essentials? I didn't call it 4.5e, did I? I called it 4e and 4eE: I'm not trying to take a jab here, I'm just calling them what people know them by. Would you prefer Pre-E and Post-E? The official term for Post-E is "Essentials+" which means "Essentials and later only, no '4e classic'" but there's not an official term I'm aware of for previous material, the stuff disallowed by Encounters. "-Esssentials" maybe?

#24

thax

Jan 20, 2011 16:37:59

The overall separation of 4th edition "classic" from "Essentials" is a false one. The main thing is that Essentials is missing some stuff that might be considered 'extra' in the classic 4e, like Rituals, classes, some of the class features that has been replaced in the builds, and other side rules that fill out the character and the D&D experience.

The player books are smaller books with kit builds (four each), basic rules and the lot, a lot of room in the book made to make the kit builds self sustained instead of like the normal builds that we saw in the power books.

Both are 4E, no matter how many irate customers put their fingers in their ears and ignore that fact. "La la lah... I am not listening..."

My overall resistance to it is the change to future products to this manor of development, to not have classes or that the Power sources are ending. This is what the new D&D experience in the stores are gonna promote.

#25

lokiare

Jan 20, 2011 18:02:05

The overall separation of 4th edition "classic" from "Essentials" is a false one. The main thing is that Essentials is missing some stuff that might be considered 'extra' in the classic 4e, like Rituals, classes, some of the class features that has been replaced in the builds, and other side rules that fill out the character and the D&D experience.

The player books are smaller books with kit builds (four each), basic rules and the lot, a lot of room in the book made to make the kit builds self sustained instead of like the normal builds that we saw in the power books.

Both are 4E, no matter how many irate customers put their fingers in their ears and ignore that fact. "La la lah... I am not listening..."

My overall resistance to it is the change to future products to this manor of development, to not have classes or that the Power sources are ending. This is what the new D&D experience in the stores are gonna promote.

The problem with this assessment is that WotC is differentiating them by not allowing pre-E in some of their events. So by that very act they are dividing up 4E into pre-E and post-E. So I'd say they have a point...

#26

thax

Jan 20, 2011 18:11:39

Indeed, the company wants to sell current material, that is material that is newer than the Core books. Wizards has exacerbated the debate by doing this but as far as compatibility is concerned it is all 4th edition.

#27

lokiare

Jan 20, 2011 18:45:52

Indeed, the company wants to sell current material, that is material that is newer than the Core books. Wizards has exacerbated the debate by doing this but as far as compatibility is concerned it is all 4th edition.

Oh, I agree, they are completely compatible, but because of the WotC chosen divide, we need some way to differentiate between the two. I prefer:

Pre-E - Before the introduction of Essentials.
Post-E - At the point Essentials was introduced and beyond (as in Essentials style design). Pre-E design that comes out post-E I still consider pre-E (though short of a few articles this has been nil)...

#28

Damon_Tor

Jan 20, 2011 21:35:21

Indeed, the company wants to sell current material, that is material that is newer than the Core books. Wizards has exacerbated the debate by doing this but as far as compatibility is concerned it is all 4th edition.

So what do you suggest we call the older material when discussing the possibility that it is disallowed at Wizard-sponsored events? Understand you disagree with the need for a term re: balance issues, but the elimination of said content at official events is precedented and ongoing.

#29

robertread3

Jan 22, 2011 2:26:21

oh _____ the ____ yes

so going cant wait

#30

malisteen

Jan 22, 2011 7:29:28

I'm curious about this program, but not excited or optimistic until I hear more of the details.

1) Are those terrible fortune cards 'needed' as in the adventures are hard and more advantages are good, or are they 'needed' as in you're not allowed to play without them? I'm pretty sure I can write up a pre-e character as powerful as a post-e character with the cards so theoretically I might be ok without them. Being able to play without the cards is an absolute necessity for me.

2) Is pre-e material even allowed at all? Another necessity.

3) Will these adventures be at mid or higher level? Yet another necessity. I've played through low levels enough on both sides of the screen in 4e that I simply don't have any interest in a game that starts below paragon at this point.

4) Will the adventures be disconnected one shots? I'm a busy person with an irregular schedule. If missing a session or dying results in serious penalties to future sessions, then it's not even worth considering for me.

questions 2-4 are the reason encounters has nothing to offer me. Nothing against encounters, I'm sure it's fine for what it is, I just hope that this will be more then just a harder version of the same.

#31

robertread3

Jan 22, 2011 13:29:41

I'm curious about this program, but not excited or optimistic until I hear more of the details.

1) Are those terrible fortune cards 'needed' as in the adventures are hard and more advantages are good, or are they 'needed' as in you're not allowed to play without them? I'm pretty sure I can write up a pre-e character as powerful as a post-e character with the cards so theoretically I might be ok without them. Being able to play without the cards is an absolute necessity for me.

2) Is pre-e material even allowed at all? Another necessity.

3) Will these adventures be at mid or higher level? Yet another necessity. I've played through low levels enough on both sides of the screen in 4e that I simply don't have any interest in a game that starts below paragon at this point.

4) Will the adventures be disconnected one shots? I'm a busy person with an irregular schedule. If missing a session or dying results in serious penalties to future sessions, then it's not even worth considering for me.

questions 2-4 are the reason encounters has nothing to offer me. Nothing against encounters, I'm sure it's fine for what it is, I just hope that this will be more then just a harder version of the same.

1. it clearly says here www.wizards.com/WPN/Sales/Article.aspx?x... they are not required for anything even encounters, if you wanna use em go right ahead though

2. www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4... dosent say weather or not you can, but i would think that they would its for advanced players and why would you make advanced players use the essentials basic minded material?

3. magic 8 ball says "ask again later"

4. if the style of play isent your thing, spend your evenings relaxing at home, no one will force you to come, unless you have incredibly intimidating friends

#32

Neutronium_Dragon

Jan 22, 2011 13:59:05

#1: Not quite true.

"For some Wizards Play Network programs aimed at experienced players, Fortune Card purchase will be a requirement to participate, but our broadly-appealing programs like D&D Encounters will feature their use without such a requirement."

Encounters doesn't require them, but this is probably one of those "aimed at experienced players" programs.

#33

Damon_Tor

Jan 22, 2011 17:42:49

#1: Not quite true. "For some Wizards Play Network programs aimed at experienced players, Fortune Card purchase will be a requirement to participate, but our broadly-appealing programs like D&D Encounters will feature their use without such a requirement." Encounters doesn't require them, but this is probably one of those "aimed at experienced players" programs.

Well damn. Where'd you find that quote?

They are literally mandatory.

...

Wow.

#34

robertread3

Jan 22, 2011 20:48:21

i did not read carefully enough you are correct neutronium_dragon

either way no big deal its not like you HAVE to buy 20 boosters to get uber l33t cardz i mean if i have to ill just buy one, swap with buddies who also bought one and go merrily skipping along

im actually amazed they are required for encounters, i mean on encounters night you could have like 5-15 people in your store and sell only a few bits of candy and soda

#35

malisteen

Jan 22, 2011 21:47:37

Wow. Cards literally required. I had hoped this might be an organized play D&D thing I might actually want to participate in. Oh, well.

Maybe there are some people that enjoy encounters, or will enjoy this, but WotC does seem to be going out of their way to leave me without any motivation to participate.

#36

frothsof

Jan 22, 2011 21:51:43

no way will i pay for those cards to play. sane store owners wont require it

#37

Style75

Jan 22, 2011 22:14:06

no way will i pay for those cards to play. sane store owners wont require it

I agree with you, I hate the cards and don't want to use them. Ever. The problem is that this new uber-battle program has been designed with the cards in mind ( "you're going to need them" ) knowing full well that the cards represent massive power creep (power leap). If it is going to be tough with the cards, it'll probably be unplayable without them. Which I'm sure is what WotC has planned all along.

#38

malisteen

Jan 23, 2011 10:42:37

I agree with you, I hate the cards and don't want to use them. Ever. The problem is that this new uber-battle program has been designed with the cards in mind ( "you're going to need them" ) knowing full well that the cards represent massive power creep (power leap). If it is going to be tough with the cards, it'll probably be unplayable without them. Which I'm sure is what WotC has planned all along.

The problem isn't that the adventures would be too hard without them. They're not going to require the absolute top end of optimization, and we can pretty easily come up with optimized characters drawing from all 4e material that would be stronger even without cards then, say, an optimized warlock would be even with them. Basically, no matter how hard they make it, as long as it's still even vaguely level appropriate we can make characters that can beat it without the cards.

The cards are power creep to be sure, they aren't sufficiently huge power creep that it's possible to design adventures that are beatable with the cards, but impossible without them.

The problem is quotes indicating that the cards will be literally required to play. As in "don't have cards? then you aren't allowed at this event".

#39

thax

Jan 23, 2011 11:09:22

I would likely buy the cards, open the booster and tear them in half, then throw them in the trash. "OK, I bought the cards as requested, but that doesn't mean I am gonna use them."

#40

kairiroses

Jan 23, 2011 18:51:23

I would likely buy the cards, open the booster and tear them in half, then throw them in the trash. "OK, I bought the cards as requested, but that doesn't mean I am gonna use them."

lol

... like the character in "Firestarter" (book, not movie) who buys packs of cigarettes just to unroll them and rip them up as a form of protest.

The problem with "protests" like this is that all the number-crunchers see is that sales of the cards are high. You haven't changed anything and don't even walk away with a playable product. You might as well burn your money.

If you feel that strongly against the cards, then you're better off simply never a single card. That way you protest in a way that Wizards will actually notice and you're not out any money.

Personally, I'm wary of the cards but haven't really made up my mind one way or the other just yet. I think I'm probably going to buy a pack or two and see what I think of them. Then, if I like them, then I'll buy a pack here, a pack there, and basically just deal them out randomly amongst my players at the beginning of each gaming session (or something along those lines, like a booster draft or something.)

#41

Alter_Boy

Jan 23, 2011 22:43:17

The problem is quotes indicating that the cards will be literally required to play. As in "don't have cards? then you aren't allowed at this event".

I'm currently allowing a Warlord in my Encounters campaign. In the next season, I'm going to allow the reward cards from the past seasons in lieu of the Fortune Cards. I'll strongly promote Essentials and Fortune cards, but I won't turn anyone away for it.

If this were a tournament and money/ratings were on the line, I'd be stricter. But the point of Essentials is to bring people into FLGSs on a weekly basis, and the store owner would probably be more angry with losing a regular player than not promoting the latest hotness.

#42

Astromath

Jan 24, 2011 6:18:01

My thinking is that if they "require" fortune cards for the encounters, they will have a pack for each character included with the encounters set. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. Especailly, if some of us start the encounters a week early (like us).

As for the rewards cards, it is in their description that they can be used for any encounter campaign.

#43

Kevin_Andrew_Murphy

Jan 24, 2011 12:54:43

no way will i pay for those cards to play. sane store owners wont require it

Sane store owners either go on the honor system, where customers are expected to buy something to pay for the table space, or else a direct fee on table space which is generally waived if you purchase something.

I've never seen a store owner mind or care if your purchase is in any way related to the game you're playing at the moment. Why should they?

And also the trouble with the Fortune cards is that unlike Magic cards, they have edition lock--they're tied to the current ruleset, as opposed to Magic where I can pull out an old Alpha deck and still play the game with no trouble against people playing with current decks.

Apart from requiring them as a fee to play certain tournaments, I really can't see anyone using them.

#44

tmacsmash

Jan 24, 2011 17:57:08

This is all going to be at the DM's discretion (just like most things). They may be required by WotC, but if no one at the table wants to use them what DM is seriously going to make them? And who knows you may even get a pack provided for you (my local shop already has for Encounters). Are you going to turn down free stuff out of spite?

#45

tmacsmash

Jan 25, 2011 10:45:07

This is all going to be at the DM's discretion (just like most things). They may be required by WotC, but if no one at the table wants to use them what DM is seriously going to make them? And who knows you may even get a pack provided for you (my local shop already has for Encounters). Are you going to turn down free stuff out of spite?

Very few game store owners have enough inventory overload to give away free boosters of a new product. I would not take even a free sample of these cards in any event. D&D is not a CCG.

That may be, and I'd consider myself lucky that my shop was generous and gave all the Encounters players a free pack in order to be ready for next season. Honestly this product isn't for me, but it feels no different than the reward cards (only you get to use a lot more of them per encounter). While my one pack isn't enough to make a deck as far as the rules are concerned (it would take 2-3 packs to make one correctly), I highly doubt anyone will get up in arms if you don't meet regulations. All I was trying to say is don't refuse to play the program because it's trying to push a product you don't want (they're a business, that's what they do). You may not even be forced to use it, and for all you (not necessarily you TD, but anybody reading this) know you may like it (I probably won't, but I'll give it a try). And as an aside the minis made D&D a CCG already. Thankfully WotC went to tokens in box sets.

#46

malisteen

Jan 25, 2011 10:58:10

I'm not even that averse to cards. But I am hugely averse to these cards, on a number of grounds, but the biggest is this:

It adds multiple extra steps to each players' turn, drawing out combat and inserting an extra barrier to role playing immersion during combat. 4e combats didn't need to be longer or less immersive. Quite the opposite, in fact, on both accounts.

I wouldn't mind cards for random encounters, or monster stat cards. I actually think random environmental effect cards that impact all participants in an encounter would be interesting.

But these cards, and the distracting little minigame that they become on the table, are the exact opposite of what I want.

#47

tmacsmash

Jan 25, 2011 11:06:47

I'm not even that averse to cards. But I am hugely averse to these cards, on a number of grounds, but the biggest is this:

It adds multiple extra steps to each players' turn, drawing out combat and inserting an extra barrier to role playing immersion during combat. 4e combats didn't need to be longer or less immersive. Quite the opposite, in fact, on both accounts.

I wouldn't mind cards for random encounters, or monster stat cards. I actually think random environmental effect cards that impact all participants in an encounter would be interesting.

But these cards, and the distracting little minigame that they become on the table, are the exact opposite of what I want.

I've had the same thought, but I'll see when I play next season. I think I'm right, but then I think I'm right about a lot of things.

#48

Style75

Jan 26, 2011 12:53:26

All I was trying to say is don't refuse to play the program because it's trying to push a product you don't want (they're a business, that's what they do).

This is exactly why we should refuse to play the program. If we agree to play the game this way and if people buy the cards, then you can be 100% guaranteed that new rules for D&D 4e/5e/6e/ etc. will have CCG mechanics baked right into them.

WotC needs to be sent a message that CCG doesn't belong in D&D. There's really only two ways to do it. The first is to not buy the cards. The second is to refuse to play Encounters or LFR with these cards. Encounters is WotC flagship D&D public play program. Volunteer DM's are the engine that drives the encounters program. If DM's like myself pull out over fortune cards, WotC will be forced to either A) scrap encounters or B) scrap fortune cards. My hope is that they'd scrap the cards.

I will not DM any Encounters session with these cards. I do not want people using real world money to get an advantage in D&D. It's against the spirit of the game.

#49

tmacsmash

Jan 26, 2011 13:59:16

All I was trying to say is don't refuse to play the program because it's trying to push a product you don't want (they're a business, that's what they do).

This is exactly why we should refuse to play the program. If we agree to play the game this way and if people buy the cards, then you can be 100% guaranteed that new rules for D&D 4e/5e/6e/ etc. will have CCG mechanics baked right into them.

WotC needs to be sent a message that CCG doesn't belong in D&D. There's really only two ways to do it. The first is to not buy the cards. The second is to refuse to play Encounters or LFR with these cards. Encounters is WotC flagship D&D public play program. Volunteer DM's are the engine that drives the encounters program. If DM's like myself pull out over fortune cards, WotC will be forced to either A) scrap encounters or B) scrap fortune cards. My hope is that they'd scrap the cards.

I will not DM any Encounters session with these cards. I do not want people using real world money to get an advantage in D&D. It's against the spirit of the game.

Whether people play the program or not will not send a message about the cards. That will determine if the program is successful. Only the sales of the cards will determine if the cards are successful. If people don't actually use them in these programs then the cards probably won't be successful, and I never said you should use the cards if you have to pay for them (hell I wouldn't use them if they weren't provided to me). There is no way the game can't work if you don't use the cards (it's probably harder though, but who cares). There is simply no way of knowing what this program will be like now (so little info and so far away), and there is even less of a way of knowing until you try it (you may think or have an idea, but that isn't knowing). On a final note this program starts in Sept. and the cards start selling in Feb. Wizards will probably know whether these have been a success or failure by the time that program starts up (which is why I'm confused by it's gap). The cards may not even be an issue by then, and maybe they'll try to push another product on you instead. This season of Encounters was supposed to incorporate Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword and Spell, but that went bye bye.

#50

Alter_Boy

Jan 27, 2011 9:16:20

Regarding the Fortune cards in play:

Two of my players used a deck of Fortune Cards (freebies from the store) last night and it was readily apparent when the cards would or wouldn't be used. Prevent falling damage - Are you jumping down or not? Not attack to get +4 to defenses - You're going to attack or not?

The "chokepoints" are fairly simple to resolve, and that was for people who didn't pre-build their decks for their PCs. A well-built deck should be built around the playstyle of the player and thus be easily resolved. Unless said player is a ditherer...

#51

FitzTheRuke

Jan 28, 2011 0:47:44

Yeah I don't like 'em in theory either but I'll have to give 'em a try first.

I just read the Phantom Brigade module. Looks like it's going to be really great. Worst case scenario: If you don't like the cards (after trying them) don't use them.

#52

Damon_Tor

Jan 28, 2011 1:00:29

Reading the notes from the expo today: they discussed the new program, but did not discuss if the program was Essentials+. Was there really nobody that wanted to ask this question, or was it a question they just didn't want to answer?

#53

lokiare

Jan 28, 2011 2:22:53

Reading the notes from the expo today: they discussed the new program, but did not discuss if the program was Essentials+. Was there really nobody that wanted to ask this question, or was it a question they just didn't want to answer?

I told you they would field the questions...

#54

tmacsmash

Jan 30, 2011 19:36:44

Here are the notes from the expo provided by baldmangames.com.

New In-Store Event

D&D Forunte Cards Strongly Suggested

Starting in Sept

One DEADLY Encounter

BYOC - Bring your own character

Event name TBD (stay tuned)

Good chance your group will get CRUSHED.

VERY good chance

Multiple Objectives - not JUST “kill the monster”

Can retry with a new group if you fail

More notes from a different conference.

Name is set, but hasn’t cleared a trademark search so it can’t be shared yet.

Born from what happen at conventions

Things like the Delve and Ultimate Delve

Want to bring that Convention spectacle back to the stores

Want people standing around tables, drawing in the attention of others with their excitement

Geared for the super-tactical players

Will likely requie multiple plays to “solve” the tactical puzzles

Organizers can schedule it whenever is appropriate

Stores and Organizers can use the program to their benefit

Players can try to get this run around their availability

Starts in Sept

Will have a kit like D&D Encounters

One kit covers 2 months

Store can schedule however the like

6 Kits a year

Hopefully this helps everyone, and maybe some of paranoid skeptics will cease. Big things I got from it were cards aren't required, but do help. You can play whenever, so long a game is set up. It's very hard and you will die (supposedly). Sounds like there's no story either, but I could be wrong there.

As for the essentials thing I never got the impression it was essentials only. By Mearls own words essentials is meant for beginners. The previous material is meant for people who have experience with D&D. Since this game is for the experienced player I'd say any and all classes will be accepted, but thats a guess.

#55

FitzTheRuke

Jan 31, 2011 0:29:09

I'm actually really looking forward to this.

#56

lokiare

Jan 31, 2011 3:02:06

I so want to walk in there with a DPR king using cheese and stomp on thier so called "hard" encounters...

#57

dragonpimp

Jan 31, 2011 10:58:33

I so want to walk in there with a DPR king using cheese and stomp on thier so called "hard" encounters...

I totally agree, brother!

-THE Dragon Pimp

#58

mudbunny

Jan 31, 2011 11:21:58

Reading the notes from the expo today: they discussed the new program, but did not discuss if the program was Essentials+. Was there really nobody that wanted to ask this question, or was it a question they just didn't want to answer?

I told you they would field the questions...

So you have proof, or are you just making the rather large leap from "the question wasn't asked" to "WotC refused to answer/prevented the question from being asked?"

#59

Timmeh

Jan 31, 2011 11:36:10

All I was trying to say is don't refuse to play the program because it's trying to push a product you don't want (they're a business, that's what they do).

This is exactly why we should refuse to play the program. If we agree to play the game this way and if people buy the cards, then you can be 100% guaranteed that new rules for D&D 4e/5e/6e/ etc. will have CCG mechanics baked right into them.

WotC needs to be sent a message that CCG doesn't belong in D&D. There's really only two ways to do it. The first is to not buy the cards. The second is to refuse to play Encounters or LFR with these cards. Encounters is WotC flagship D&D public play program. Volunteer DM's are the engine that drives the encounters program. If DM's like myself pull out over fortune cards, WotC will be forced to either A) scrap encounters or B) scrap fortune cards. My hope is that they'd scrap the cards.

I will not DM any Encounters session with these cards. I do not want people using real world money to get an advantage in D&D. It's against the spirit of the game.

Whether people play the program or not will not send a message about the cards. That will determine if the program is successful. Only the sales of the cards will determine if the cards are successful. If people don't actually use them in these programs then the cards probably won't be successful, and I never said you should use the cards if you have to pay for them (hell I wouldn't use them if they weren't provided to me). There is no way the game can't work if you don't use the cards (it's probably harder though, but who cares). There is simply no way of knowing what this program will be like now (so little info and so far away), and there is even less of a way of knowing until you try it (you may think or have an idea, but that isn't knowing). On a final note this program starts in Sept. and the cards start selling in Feb. Wizards will probably know whether these have been a success or failure by the time that program starts up (which is why I'm confused by it's gap). The cards may not even be an issue by then, and maybe they'll try to push another product on you instead. This season of Encounters was supposed to incorporate Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword and Spell, but that went bye bye.

I wouldn't really say that. By not buying the fortune cards and not attending the games due to fortune cards, you show a clear signal. #1 is that you won't buy fortune cards. #2 is that you're not willing to put up with this kind of a requirement to buy a product that you don't like. And #2 can be a very important signal to send.

#60

mudbunny

Jan 31, 2011 11:40:53

I wouldn't really say that. By not buying the fortune cards and not attending the games due to fortune cards, you show a clear signal. #1 is that you won't buy fortune cards. #2 is that you're not willing to put up with this kind of a requirement to buy a product that you don't like. And #2 can be a very important signal to send.

That only works if WotC knows that people aren't attending the new program *beacuse* of the potential to use fortune cards. If all they know is that the attendance is low, how are they to know if it is because
(a) the new program is unpopular;
(b) because people don't like Fortune Cards, and are thus not attending the new program because it allows you to use fortune cards;
(c) it conflicts with Big Bang Theory or Leverage.

#61

tmacsmash

Jan 31, 2011 11:54:14

I wouldn't really say that. By not buying the fortune cards and not attending the games due to fortune cards, you show a clear signal. #1 is that you won't buy fortune cards. #2 is that you're not willing to put up with this kind of a requirement to buy a product that you don't like. And #2 can be a very important signal to send.

Like mudbunny said there are too many variables to determine why this program will or won't be successful. Add to it the fact that the cards don't appear to be required based on statements from D&DXP, the cards themselves no longer become a valid excuse. Maybe it isn't successful because it's meant for experienced players, and it intimidates too many newer or less "skilled" players thereby limiting the pool of players. Maybe nobody can agree on a time that works to set up the encounter. Maybe the idea of a single encounter doesn't appeal to enough people. There are countless reason why this program may or may not work. Without a survey they won't know, but I'm guessing WotC has probably done something like that before getting this far.

#62

FitzTheRuke

Jan 31, 2011 13:08:03

I'm actually really looking forward to this.

Well at least someone is. Sounds exceptionally stupid to me. Damn CCGs in a RPG.

I wasn't talking about the cards. I was talking about the "hard encounters". Sounds like fun. We'll know long before then if the cards are something we can live with or can live without.

#63

FitzTheRuke

Jan 31, 2011 20:17:49

I wasn't talking about the cards. I was talking about the "hard encounters". Sounds like fun. We'll know long before then if the cards are something we can live with or can live without.

Yes the "hard" encounters sound cool. I know the answer to the CCG question now. Howeer last I heard the buy in for the "hard" encounters was buying the CCG. Not going to happen on my end.

I own a store that will be running the game (If I'm not running them I'll be playing them) and I don't care what the idea is - I won't be "forcing" anyone to buy anything to play. I expect most FLGS arelike that. Sure, it would be nice if you don't be a total **** and show up at the store to play whilst buying all your books on Amazon, but that's just showing your FLGS some respect.

Certainly the packs will be available for anyone who wants to "play along" with WotC's promotion (and or give the cards a try before dismising them.)