Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Haldrik Aug 27, 2010 15:35:34	A NEW MECHANIC FOR DAILY POWERS This thread proposes the use of an action point, instead of an extended rest, as the mechanic to use a Daily power. Thus the number of action points increases to an additional one per encounter. This mechanic seems simple, effective, inherently self-balancing novas, and may even restore the equivalency between the PH Daily classes and the Essential non-Daily classes (Knight, Slayer, Thief, etcetera). The encounter-centric mechanic also simplifies bookkeeping by removing the need to track milestones, and makes it possible to adventure across many encounters in a day without requiring an extended rest to restore the spent Dailies. • At the end of each extended rest, your number of action points resets to 1. • You gain an additional action point at the end of each successful encounter. • You can spend an action point to gain an extra standard action. • You can spend an action point to use a Daily power. You may use any Daily you know, but not the same Daily again during the same encounter. This mechanic replaces the one that 'prepares' all of your Daily powers at the end of each extended rest. • You can spend an action point to use any 'nova effect' (that Essential martial classes are rumored to gain). For example, to deal a nova using two novas in the same round costs three action points: two dailies and one extra standard action. Several excellent threads have discussed the problematics with the mechanic of Daily powers. Not least of which is the 'twenty-minute workday', where the gaming system balances around four encounters with each one said to be equivalent to about 5 minutes. The Daily powers are a sacred cow from the vancian spellcasting system of previous editions, and still continues to disrupt the gaming system, even in 4e. Now with some Essential classes dispensing with Daily powers altogether, there is even more pressure to decouple the Daily mechanic from the extended rest, so as to ensure balance between Daily and non-Daily classes across many encounters in a day. Rumors expect non-Daily classes to gain extra umph with 'nova effects' when spending an action point to remain balanced with the classes that unleash Daily novas and to break up the basic-attack monotony. If true, this functions remarkably well with the proposed mechanic here. When spending two action points,    • non-Daily use (encounter power + action-point extra standard action encounter power + action point 'nova effect')    • and Daily use (encounter power + action-point extra standard action + action-point Daily power) are roughly equivalent both in effectiveness and frequency. This proposal for as action point to use a Daily power instead of an extended rest, may require tweaking but seems like a solid mechanic. It may take calibration to ensure the following ways to spend an action point remains roughly comparable in power: to accomplish two atwill attacks or even two encounter attacks, to accomplish one Daily attack, and to accomplish one atwill attack plus a 'nova effect'. Also, there needs to be an elegant way to spend an action point to restore the number of surges, which is the only other reason for a premature extended rest. Or else simply eliminate the limit of surges, since surge values already calibrate balance between high-versus-low hit point classes. In addition to balancing classes, once Daily powers and surges no longer refer to an extended rest, the DM can start designing adventure encounters that no longer require sleep after every 20 minutes or so, but can have as many encounters as makes sense for that storyline.
#2 teamfireyleader Aug 27, 2010 15:46:49	Knee jerk reaction: Heck No! 3 seconds later: wellll............... 10 seconds later: actually I quite like. Now: Yes, definitely. This also makes barbarians quite powerless unless you allow rage strike to be at will again. Then, my friend this is really good, leaves the main burst class as the king of nova damage, and leaves everyone in a much more balanced environment, and equalises quite nicely with essentials, unless the devs have taken into account daily loss very well.
#3 malisteen Aug 28, 2010 7:57:47	A given daily should still be limited to 1/day.  Otherwise most of a character's daily powers will rarely see use.  This also extremely devalues item dailies, which are almost never as good as daily powers, almost to the point of just banning them.  It's also a big de-powering of characters, as the total number of action points you're giving out doesn't meet the previous total of daily power uses + 1/2 encounter action point uses + item daily power uses unless youve been playing for dozens of encounters without resting - basically you'll run out of surges first. So what you have is again, basically a depowering of action points and daily powers by making them compete with each other for resources plus more or less removing item dailies entirely. I do think the idea is neat and has some merit.  It puts all the big nova abilities under the same roof, which I like.  But I don't like how it's fitting into the mechanics as they are.  A lot of abilities are losing their value as they compete for the same resource.
#4 praion Aug 28, 2010 14:17:49	What about Wardens ? Their Dailys are really different compared to other Classes.
#5 Haldrik Aug 28, 2010 20:40:30	Tfl: '10 seconds later: actually I quite like. Now: Yes, definitely.' Mal: 'I do think the idea is neat and has some merit.  It puts all the big nova abilities under the same roof, which I like.'    I apprecriate the support for this action-point mechanic. Mal: 'But I don't like how it's fitting into the mechanics as they are.'    The action-point mechanic for daily powers may need tweaking, so we should look at any concerns carefully. In this post, Il focus on one concern: how much is lost when switching to the action-point mechanic? My initial response is, the mechanic offers advantages as well, and in the long run is propably better than you expected. For a down and dirty comparison, level 9 gains a total of 3 daily powers to choose among. (This number doesnt improve until level 20 with 4 dailies to choose from.) The comparison boils down to this. The extended-rest mechanic lets you blow your wad as soon as you wake up, in the first encounter. But then you have to go to sleep about 40 minutes later. By contrast, the action-point mechanic, forces you to wait til about 30 minutes after you wake up, before you can really get yourself together well enough before you go supernova. But after that, you can still have a daylong adventure with supernova after supernova, if thats how you choose to pace yourself. In my opinion, the action-point mechanic is simply better. While it requires some conservation of energy and focus to do, thus defers instant gratification, it is a better deal. For an adventure story that lasts more than 40 minutes, there really is no choice: the action-point mechanic is better.    Daily Powers Using the Extended-Rest Mechanic    • Wakeup: accumulate 1 action point    • 1st Encounter (Supernova): use daily, spend action point, gain extra action, use daily; next round use daily    • 2nd Encounter: -    • Milestone: accumulate 1 action point    • 3rd Encounter: spend action point, gain extra action    • 4th Encounter: -    • Milestone: accumulate 1 action point    • 40 minutes later ...    • 5th Encounter or Go to Sleep: spend action point, gain extra action    • 6th Encounter or Go to Sleep: -    • Milestone: accumulate 1 action point    • 7th Encounter or Go to Sleep: spend action point, gain extra action    • 8th Encounter or Go to Sleep: -    • 1 hour and 20 minutes later ...    • Probably Already Asleep or 'Sharpening Swords' Until You Can Fall Asleep.    Daily Powers Using the Action-Point Mechanic (If Pacing Yourself for Supernovas)    • Wakeup: accumulate 1 action point    • 1st Encounter: end of the encounter, accumulate 2 action points    • 2nd Encounter: end of the encounter, accumulate 3 action points    • 3rd Encounter: end of the encounter, accumulate 4 action points     • 4th Encounter (Supernova): spend 4 action points, use daily, extra action, use daily, next round use daily; end of the encounter, accumulate 1 action point    • 40 minutes later ...    • 5th Encounter: end of the encounter, accumulate 2 action points    • 6th Encounter: end of the encounter, accumulate 3 action points    • 7th Encounter: end of the encounter, accumulate 4 action points     • 8th Encounter (Supernova): spend 4 action points, use daily, extra action, use daily, next round use daily; end of the encounter, accumulate 1 action point    • 1 hour and 20 minutes later ...    • 5th Encounter: end of the encounter, accumulate 2 action points    • 6th Encounter: end of the encounter, accumulate 3 action points    • 7th Encounter: end of the encounter, accumulate 4 action points     • 8th Encounter (Supernova): spend 4 action points, use daily, extra action, use daily, next round use daily; end of the encounter, accumulate 1 action point    • 2 hours later ...    • And so on ... Comparing the extended-rest mechanic with the action-point mechanic. Clearly, it is more difficult for the action-point mechanic to do a supernova. But look at what actually happens when you use the extended-rest mechanic to do a supernova. You blow your wad in the first encounter, the next few encounters are weak and monotonous without anything to look forward to, and then you succumb to sleep again 40 minutes or so after you woke up! The extended-rest mechanic is snooze - literally sleep inducing. By contrast, the action point mechanic forces you to wait about 30 minutes after waking up, in order to get yourself into gear to do a supernova. (In reallife, it takes me about an hour to wake up - and that includes coffee! - before I get into gear.) And even after executing a supernova, your character still looks forward to a funfilled day of supernova after supernova. The action-point mechanic is better for the game as a whole. Moreover, supernovas shouldnt be easy, because they can break the gaming balance. So while they are possible, they require more effort to pull off and maintain the same frequency (one out of four encounters) or become much less frequent if spending action points in other ways. Meanwhile, instead of pacing yourself for supernovas, you can spend the action points more naturally with more gaming balance. For example, the action-point mechanic lets martial characters use their daily powers when it makes sense. The Ranger doesnt need to 'sleep on it' to 'figure out' how to do the fancy shot again. The Ranger is on a winning streak (accumulating the action points after successful encounters), is full confidence, and can do the fancy stunt again, maybe even five minutes later when a next batch of monsters attacks. The action-point mechanic is both more balanced (by discouraging gamebreaking novas) and more spontanous (by allowing the flexibility to choose to do spectacular stunts when the storyline makes it make sense).
#6 malisteen Aug 28, 2010 23:18:01	I think the far more likely result of your new system is: wake up, gain action point encounter one: use highest level daily attack, gain action point encounter two: use highest level daily attack, gain action point every encounter from then on: use highest level daily attack, gain action point basically, every character's highest level daily attack becomes an encounter power, and all their other daily abilities are forgotten.  Note that some classes, particularly the wizard but also anything with strong encounter-duration daily powers, may become too powerful, despite the change being, for most characters, a downgrade. For the new martial classes replace 'use daily' with 'use action point'. Never seen again: - any character's daily attacks other then the highest level one - daily utilities: already somewhat less attractive then encounter utilities, now they're terrible - item daily powers: when will they ever be better then your highest level daily? Even action points for extra actions are likely to become pretty rare. The more I think about it, the less enamored I am of this idea.  Basically what you're looking at is the elimination of daily powers, replacing them instead with more encounter powers, just more powerful ones chosen from a pool.  If you don't like daily resources, you might as well just remove them entirely from wherever they appear, and maybe slightly reduce the power of elites and solos to compensate.  You'll also have to watch out for the new martial classes, which might be two strong in such a context, since they're theoretically balanced for an environment where other characters have daily resources and they don't. As an alternative suggestion, if novas and short work days are really impacting your campaign enough to require house ruling to discourage them: action points reset to 0, not one, on an extended rest. Only one daily attack power may be used per encounter, not counting powers gained from feats or class features. Only one daily utility power may be used per encounter, not counting powers gained from feats or class features.
#7 ekhawkman Aug 29, 2010 0:37:58	I'll just point this out here, in my group, we used dailies sparingly, like, really sparingly. We would go two encounters into a day without blowing ANY dailies. When we did, it was big. Mostly because we couldn't just end and take an extended rest. Many times if we did that, we would've died. You have to put your characters into a position where, if they choose to take an extended rest, they miss out on something, OR, just say no, you can't, you don't have the time or the ability to rest for 6 hours. Try resting for 6 hours in a sewer, or in the middle of a forest with no way to set up camp. Just things like that, that will prevent them from having a 20 minute day, as they HAVE to go on longer. Or, they could supernova and be gimped the rest of the time. That sort of thing is player responsibility actually.  The next thing is the occasion when "Oh snap even with dailies this encounter is just too hard what do we do?" and you don't want to actually end up with a TPK is to have something give the effect of an extended rest. Once we were in a city below a city, and we had gone through 3 or 4 encounters, and were low on health, surges, powers, everything, and were about to go through another encounter or two, so our DM said that our wizard's familiar exploded in a burst of energy restoring everyone. It was a once in a campaign type thing, but it was a good way to deal with that situation.
#8 Haldrik Aug 29, 2010 1:06:16	Mal: 'I think the far more likely result of your new system is: wake up, gain action point encounter one: use highest level daily attack, gain action point encounter two: use highest level daily attack, gain action point every encounter from then on: use highest level daily attack, gain action point'    I myself, whenever possible, would save the action points for a rainy day a tough encounter. Why waste a daily on a bunch of orcs, when you can scrape by, and then drop two dailies on a dragon later? Moreover, sometimes one daily is enough to turn the tide of battle, allowing spare action points for later. Guaranteed, the action point mechanic varies the use of dailies significantly from encounter to encounter. Besides, a 'subnova' (encounter power + extra action + encounter power) can be more effective than one daily power. Situationally, even an extra move action in an emergency can be worth the price of an extra action. So even the purchases with an action point vary. The action point mechanic encourages diverse uses, and seems to make play unpredictable and fresh.
#9 Haldrik Aug 29, 2010 1:34:30	Hawkman: 'Just say no, you can't [take an extended rest]. ... That will prevent them from having a 20 minute day.'    I dont really follow the 'just say no' argument. So, the team members wake up at 6 oclock in the morning. And crawl thru a dungeon, surrounded by monsters, for 40 minutes (= 4 encounters being each about 5 minutes plus 4 short rests also each about 5 minutes). Theyv run out of dailies, run out of surges, are about to die, cant risk running into any of the surrounding monsters, and need to take an extended rest. But the DM says, 'No'. So, against everybodys better judgment they press on. Two teammates are dead, the adventure has been ruined, but theyv managed to press on for two more encounters. The DM 'wins'? Because its now a whole 20 minutes later? So now they can take an extended rest? And they go back to sleep. What time is it? Oh, its 7 oclock in the morning, one whole hour after they woke up. And the survivors sleep for ... 23 hours ... to adventure for another whole hour tomorrow. No matter how you look at it, the current extended-rest daily mechanic remains untenable. Even a 'just say no' DM cant save it. The daily 'vancian spellcasting' mechanic is a failing mechanic. It doesnt work well with the encounter-centric mechanics of 4e. Its probably a good thing certain Essential classes have already cut off their dependence on the current daily power extended-rest mechanic.
#10 Haldrik Aug 29, 2010 11:47:08	Praion: 'What about Wardens?'    Can you give a specific example that concerns you? Mal: 'Daily utilities: already somewhat less attractive then encounter utilities, now they're terrible. Item daily powers: when will they ever be better then your highest level daily?'    The action-point mechanic is meant for the class daily attack powers. Daily utilities are awkward, and Im unsure how best to handle them. Honestly, I dont mind the way magic item daily powers are now, after the devs just eliminated the milestone mechanic for them. The *item* daily can still use the extended rest mechanic and only activate once per day. Now all of the minor item utility dailies can find use if necessary. The major item attack dailies can also find use only *once*, which is fine because characters should avoid dependence on their items anyway. Character powers should always outclass item powers. If players start to do extended rests because of dependency on items, then something is broken. Likely the item needs a nerfbat, tho possibly the character class is defective and needs a boost in that specific mechanic that the item compensates. Either way, magic item daily powers should avoid routine, but merely add spice to the character powers every now and then as the team journeys on thru the day.
#11 ekhawkman Aug 29, 2010 13:37:32	Hawkman: 'Just say no, you can't [take an extended rest]. ... That will prevent them from having a 20 minute day.'    I dont really follow the 'just say no' argument. So, the team members wake up at 6 oclock in the morning. And crawl thru a dungeon, surrounded by monsters, for 40 minutes (= 4 encounters being each about 5 minutes plus 4 short rests also each about 5 minutes). Theyv run out of dailies, run out of surges, are about to die, cant risk running into any of the surrounding monsters, and need to take an extended rest. But the DM says, 'No'. So, against everybodys better judgment they press on. Two teammates are dead, the adventure has been ruined, but theyv managed to press on for two more encounters. The DM 'wins'? Because its now a whole 20 minutes later? So now they can take an extended rest? And they go back to sleep. What time is it? Oh, its 7 oclock in the morning, one whole hour after they woke up. And the survivors sleep for ... 23 hours ... to adventure for another whole hour tomorrow. No matter how you look at it, the current extended-rest daily mechanic remains untenable. Even a 'just say no' DM cant save it. The daily 'vancian spellcasting' mechanic is a failing mechanic. It doesnt work well with the encounter-centric mechanics of 4e. Its probably a good thing certain Essential classes have already cut off their dependence on the current daily power extended-rest mechanic. An extended rest is only 6 hours, not a whole day. Encounters are not the only way you pass time.  It is up to the DM to lead them a certain way. But make your players realize that they can't just rest whenever. If you are in a dungeon, filled with monsters, tracking down a villain, you don't have time to sit for 6 hours. Make your players realize that, and they will save and be more frugal. Think Dark Sun, the world is not a land of sunshine and rainbows. But the big thing here is, encounters are not the only way to pass the time. You wake up, get ready, that's 30 minutes, you enter the dungeon, go 20 minutes searching, fight monsters and rest, 10 minutes, discuss what you will be doing, where to go, what we should do, more time. Another encounter and rest 10 minutes. Find a puzzle that needs to be solved, it takes about an hour, or cast a ritual, more time. Delve deeper, 2 more hours pass. Fight another encounter and rest, 10 more minutes. Catch the badguy, get the artifact, discover the secret, what have you, fight and rest. Leave the cave/dungeon/forest 5 hours. Return to the tavern, 2 hours, talk to important people, barter trade do things, another hour. Those long periods of time? Fill them with role play, or just say that time is passing. That was four encounters, it filled a full day. Measure time outside of combat. Or if you have to, they fight 4 encounters back to back, the rest of the day, skill checks, role play, NPC interaction. But if you have to warn the townspeople that monsters are coming to kill them all, a 6 hour rest means they all died. This is your story, make things work.
#12 Haldrik Aug 29, 2010 15:16:57	Hawkman: 'This is your story. Make things work.'    The gaming system *balances* around the assumption of about four encounters per day. It currently forces players to use the extended-rest mechanic. If the DM *forces* the team to go beyond four encounters, then the DM *breaks* the gaming balance and ruins the game. An encounter is equivalent to 5 minutes. Thats it. Only *5 minutes*. After four encounters, it doesnt matter how many extra encounters the DM forces the team to squeeze in. An extra 5 minutes or 10 minutes or 15 minutes or 20 is irrelevant. It can NEVER explain the *18 hours* per day of ingame narrative time. The mechanics force the characters to sleep for 6 hours and pick their noses for *17 hours*. It is ... unhelpful ... to force the DM to make 17 hours of nose picking 'work'. The current extended-rest mechanic is impractical. 'Encounters are not the only way you pass time.'    Suggesting different ways that the characters can pick their noses, fails to save the extended-rest mechanic. Most suggestions become impossible because of the narrative context. Besides, its ridiculous to force to the DM to twist every single adventure story around 1 hour of combat every single day. It would become a farse. 'You wake up, get ready, that's 30 minutes, you enter the dungeon.'    No. Instead characters may wake up *inside* a dungeon, hiding behind a secret door, surrounded by monsters. 'Go 20 minutes searching.'    Gratuitous searching. Most DMs and most players hate the searching. Odious. Boring. Grinding. Killjoy. Bad. 'Fight monsters and rest 10 minutes.'    Fight monsters, 5 minutes. Short rest, 5 minutes. Total, 10 minutes. ... New monstes interrupting and cutting short these 10 minutes and surprising the team, 6 seconds. 'Discuss what you will be doing, where to go, what we should do, more time.'    Spending 23 hours to sleep and chat is ridiculous, trapped underground, surrounded by monsters. 'Cast a ritual.'    While empty of surges and dailies, near-death, and hiding from monsters? Attention catching rituals? Does anyone in the party even know how to perform rituals? 'Delve deeper, 2 more hours pass.'    Ummm ... the door at the end of the hallway is 4 squares away. It takes less than 6 seconds to reach it. You hear monsters on the other side of the door. 'Fight and rest.'    Ummm ... what if there are *zero* safe places to rest? What does the extended-rest mechanic do then? 'Leave the cave/dungeon/forest 5 hours.'    What if the team is trapped where they are? While low on hit points and powers, they cant risk running into any of the monsters that surround them? What if leaving the dungeon is stupid? New nonintelligent monsters may reoccupy those encounter sites that the team just evacuated. Normally, leaving a dungeon means starting the entire dungeon over on return. Worse, what if the monsters are intelligent and would certainly reoccupy and reinforce their lost sites with an army and traps. Thus ending the adventure. Or else forcing the DM to rewrite the entire dungeon. For the narrative of many (most?) adventure modules, leaving and returning ruins the adventure itself. The extended-rest mechanic is less suitable for a narrative game like Dungeons and Dragons. To force a DM to straightjacket each and every story to accommodate the extended-rest mechanic verges on parody. 'Fill them with roleplay, or just say that time is passing.'    Sleeping and chatting for 23 hours per day is surreal. I never saw an *action movie* like that.
#13 ekhawkman Aug 29, 2010 16:42:24	I'm sorry, I was basing this around DMs creating their own adventures, not premade things. If it is premade then you are generally screwed. But, I'll rebuttal nonetheless! Yes, but in reality, most people won't fight for hours on end. Sure, action movies are filled with action, but there are scene breaks, and time passes between those, they don't tell it, because it is slightly irrelevant, but, it happens. So, you too can say, "You spend time doing stuff that no one cares about, especially not me, now lets get back to the action." 'What if the team is trapped where they are? While low on hit points and powers, they cant risk running into any of the monsters that surround them? What if leaving the dungeon is stupid? New nonintelligent monsters may reoccupy those encounter sites that the team just evacuated. Normally, leaving a dungeon means starting the entire dungeon over on return. Worse, what if the monsters are intelligent and would certainly reoccupy and reinforce their lost sites with an army and traps. Thus ending the adventure. Or else forcing the DM to rewrite the entire dungeon. For the narrative of many (most?) adventure modules, leaving and returning ruins the adventure itself. The extended-rest mechanic is less suitable for a narrative game like Dungeons and Dragons. To force a DM to straightjacket each and every story to accommodate the extended-rest mechanic verges on parody.' Don't make so many encounters. Or, make a place where they can rest, make it make sense. I understand that if you are using an adventure module it isn't as easy, I've never played using only those, we always made everything.   'Ummm ... what if there are *zero* safe places to rest? What does the extended-rest mechanic do then?' You are the DM, you change it. It is your responsibility. Give them something that gives the benefit of an extended rest, but instantaneous. "You happen upon a fount of life, restore yourselves to full hitpoints and surges." :rules lawyer: "But how, we don't have anything like that, where is that in any of the books?" :DM: "Nowhere, because I said so, take it, but you've still got ways to go." 'Ummm ... the door at the end of the hallway is 4 squares away. It takes less than 6 seconds to reach it. You hear monsters on the other side of the door.'  They decide they are low on surges and can't handle it, and search for a way around, you being the DM notice that hey look at that, there is an access tunnel, because the rogue had a nice perception. Or this is a group of mercenaries, and your group buys them off, they go ahead of your group and clear out the next bit of the dungeon and also die.   'While empty of surges and dailies, near-death, and hiding from monsters? Attention catching rituals? Does anyone in the party even know how to perform rituals?' Yes, your wizard, druid, bard, whoever, because your party should be equipped with at least one member who can do rituals, as it is a part of D&D, and you never know when you will need it, has a ritual to provide an area of safety for 10 hours, it is cast with a focus and a bit of chanting, it is quiet chanting, because why yell at the top of your lungs when whispers work just as well, and you have a safe place to rest for however long is necessary.  'Gratuitous searching. Most DMs and most players hate the searching. Odious. Boring. Grinding. Killjoy. Bad.' How is, "You enter a room, anyone want to look around to see what is in there? Roll perception! You see a chest, a chandellier, a duct that is big enough to crawl through, and windows overlooking the plain below." boring? It is a part of the game! It is just something you do. You look at the chest, see that it is locked, someone says, I'll look for the key in the room, you say, how about that, it was on the desk, you get a fancy sword. It isn't like a group of adventurers is just going to barge through an entire area without looking around them. There is more to D&D than combat, it is a roleplaying game.