Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 darkdiashi Jul 23, 2009 7:45:25	My idea for an evil players handbook is this: start with one or two sentient abberant races, throw in some traditional evil races (such as goblin, or Rakasha), then fuel it class wise with the Shadow power source and the new (as in: they should create this for the book) Abberant power source. add a Heroes manual (monster manual where the eneimes are good guys), and an Evil Campagin guide and you have yourself a seller. What do you guys think? Want to see this? Don't want to? Any refinements to my (admittedly hurridly written) fromula? The forum is yours....
#2 pbn Jul 23, 2009 7:55:23	I'm not sure all that is needed. Although it is pushed far toward the moral and just (ie good) - RAW (with the current add-ons) function as is for your evil campaigns. going through the character builder yields 8 races from PH, 6 from PH2 - of the 14, only 1 (arguably) can't work as well, if not better, evil - the Deva. Add to that 8 entries from the MM and MM2 (all heavily leaning toward evil) and you have plenty to choose from. PPs and EDs are already in place for those of a darker mindset, although, the rest are bent toward heroic. I only mention it because I cheat as a DM. Rather than scaling monsters up or down to fit a level for an encounter, I'll go and make evil parties for them confront, using the builder. I have a nasty dwarf executioner just waiting to cross them once they are ready to wrap up their heroic tier. That's in addition to 2 Drow "adventure groups" they will have to deal with .
#3 dunhill Jul 23, 2009 13:25:00	I'm not sure all that is needed. Although it is pushed far toward the moral and just (ie good) - RAW (with the current add-ons) function as is for your evil campaigns. going through the character builder yields 8 races from PH, 6 from PH2 - of the 14, only 1 (arguably) can't work as well, if not better, evil - the Deva. Add to that 8 entries from the MM and MM2 (all heavily leaning toward evil) and you have plenty to choose from. PPs and EDs are already in place for those of a darker mindset, although, the rest are bent toward heroic. I only mention it because I cheat as a DM. Rather than scaling monsters up or down to fit a level for an encounter, I'll go and make evil parties for them confront, using the builder. I have a nasty dwarf executioner just waiting to cross them once they are ready to wrap up their heroic tier. That's in addition to 2 Drow "adventure groups" they will have to deal with . How well does that work out for you? One thing i worry about is some characters being too powerful or too weak for my players. That and HP can be an issue. Player HP is much lower than that of the average monster.
#4 manion Jul 23, 2009 13:45:09	There's definitely no need for an "evil power source." Jinkies.
#5 galkasaur Jul 23, 2009 13:55:41	Rather than scaling monsters up or down to fit a level for an encounter, I'll go and make evil parties for them confront, using the builder. I have a nasty dwarf executioner just waiting to cross them once they are ready to wrap up their heroic tier. That's in addition to 2 Drow "adventure groups" they will have to deal with . It strikes me that those encounters have the potential to be wildly unbalanced. PC's have much less HP than monsters but are able to dish out a lot more damage, not to mention healing surges. Pitting them against other PC like opponents could easily run afoul of the rule of unintended consequences and I'm not sure there's any way to easily determine if an encounter would be balanced or an appropriate challenge for the PC's using that method.
#6 pbn Jul 23, 2009 14:06:20	How well does that work out for you? One thing i worry about is some characters being too powerful or too weak for my players. That and HP can be an issue. Player HP is much lower than that of the average monster. So far, no problems, however the bad guys are thematically-driven, not maxxed. I would caution you, however, to just take care. I'm particular about minutia in my campaign, so whenever I come up with a good group (ie. an evil group) to throw at them I "play test" the encounters. To date, I only needed one "runs away" (and yes, a couple of not so good power choices) to keep them going. Also - these are the bosses. If your party are the heroes and it's that Lx that makes them so - remember you are now granting the villains the same power. Using an evil PC group against your party should ALWAYS be treated as BBEG. (even if it appears during a trip out of the dungon to go train, as a setup for their next adventure). Oh, and btw - having a weapon/rod/etc used on you is an excellent way to know it's powers (automatic knowledge of the effect if it lands). *cackles madly* edited to add: Surprisingly enough, one of the toughest was a drow cleric of lolth - cloud of darkness is nice!
#7 satori Jul 23, 2009 14:23:15	I see the point...and perhaps "Evil" themed materials might sell well if they had a loyal following. Personally, I dislike color coding things as "Good" or "Evil". I'm one of those guys who enjoys "Shades of Gray". For example, the heroes were called in to assist a village being terrorized by trolls. In addition to trolls, other creepy crawlers have started to manifest as well, which is creating a really difficult situation for the innocent folks in the village. The heroes arrive in time to fend off the ghastly beasts and have a troll slaughtering good time. All is well, and the heroes set off to destroy the source of the troll attack... ...only to find that the village currently produces a certain type of high selling paint, which they trade to neighboring villages for a stiff profit. This fuels the village economically, and without this paint the village will surely collapse from economic ruin. This paint is a recent commodity discovered after a devastating drought crippled the villages produce. The key ingredient to this paint? Troll eggs (they're reptiles in my world). Stealing troll eggs in moderation wouldn't upset the trolls, but the greedy humans are stealing the eggs in such great quantities that the trolls will go extinct soon. Why is this a bad thing? Because the creepy crawlers attacking the village are NOT affiliated with the trolls...the trolls keep the creepy crawlers in check, as these nasty bugs are the troll's primary food source. With the troll attention drawn to the humans, the bug infestation (think hordes of carrion crawlers) breeds unchecked and overwhelms their natural habitat. So...killing the trolls will create an ecological disaster for the humans. ...what are they to do? --- Wow, that was a bit long winded, and I lost my point in there somewhere... ... ... Oh yeah. There's no such thing as "Good" and "Evil" in my campaign world, so creating an "Evil PC Book" defeats the purpose. While I might be interested in new mechanics and fluff, the theme of the book would not fit.
#8 Arbitrary_Aardvark Jul 23, 2009 15:25:41	Probably not going to happen. I don't see them sticking an entire power source (as opposed to classes) in something other than a PHB. As it stands, if they keep to Shadow as a power source they will need another source to add to PHB IV (or else add some classes using other power sources, or lose the paradigm of two sources, eight classes they are planning for PHB III onward.)
#9 terradrius Jul 23, 2009 19:18:52	Probably not going to happen. I don't see them sticking an entire power source (as opposed to classes) in something other than a PHB. As it stands, if they keep to Shadow as a power source they will need another source to add to PHB IV (or else add some classes using other power sources, or lose the paradigm of two sources, eight classes they are planning for PHB III onward.) PHB3 is Psionic, Primal, and Divine Heroes. Assassin is confirmed as Shadow. I do agree that an entire power source outside a PHB would be silly, though. And we don't need an entire book devoted to "evil" - current mechanics (with maybe a bit of flavor tweaking) work fine for evil characters.
#10 darkdiashi Jul 23, 2009 21:55:41	The Evil players handbook as i am postulating it is a PHB. Think of it as PHB V: Evil heros or something.
#11 warrl Jul 24, 2009 2:13:12	There's definitely no need for an "evil power source." I'd agree. But who says Shadow has to be evil? I'm sketching out a mythology and pantheon for a very-hot-desert culture, wherein sun, bright light, and heat are evil while shadow, twilight, and darkness are good.
#12 ekluag Jul 24, 2009 7:00:11	Just re fluff to your desire. Change a few damage types, give a darker theme, there you go. You don't need a whole book to be able to play as evil. Just because there aren't any rules or mechanical aspects to it don't mean that is can't be played. And how would you make a power source completely evil, so that it has no good in it anyway? Aberrant isn't evil, just...Different. Alien to the point of being almost impossible to understand. It can be good, it can be evil, it just isn't Normal.
#13 darkdiashi Jul 24, 2009 7:48:10	You misunderstand. Neither Shadow or Abberant are evil power sources. I just though that they would be thematically appropriate for an Evil Source book. I'd just like to see an official Evil book that I could loot for darker themed campaigns or characters, or to use whole for achange of pace evil campaign. Do we need it? No. Do we need campaign settings? Also no. Wouldn't it be great to be able to play a legal, balanced ithilid? Tired of playing a dwarf? try an Azer! Kobolds can come too! And classes that have too strong an evil flavor suddenly become viable. And now that Vecna has a Channel Divinity Feat, suddenly your hybrid Wizard/Avenger's Necromancer Power's (from the scholars of sin article) become that much juicer. Think of the possibilities that could come out of a book like this, and ways to make it viable, not reasons why we don't need it.
#14 warfeind Jul 27, 2009 2:34:39	Personally in my experience of playing D&D for the past 20 some years and every edition of the game evil campaigns generally suck. I love it when one of my players slip someone shady into the mix now that's good stuff. Evil groups just don't generally workout. When you put together 4-6 people who are all out for just themselves and happen to be amoral, cohesion starts to break down unless one person has a iron fist and can keep everyone else in check. Eventually one or more of your players are going to kill each other. Evil always turns on it's self. Evil books were nice in 3rd because monsters were designed like PC's now I just don't see the need.
#15 Duke5150 Jul 27, 2009 6:34:08	Abyssal power source. Pure blood Baatorian, Pure blood Tanar'rian, Half fiend (demon blooded), Half fiend (devil blooded), Half Baator/Tanar'ri breed. New hellbreeds. It won't ever happen because people want D&D to be all mary poppins/puppy dogs and stuffed animals. (no playable evil) Because THEY don't like it or because THEY can't grasp it. There are thousands upon thousands of evil campaigns that have nothing to do with slaughtering innocent children, brutal sexual assault or any of those other horrible and unfun concepts. Destroy the paladins, pervert or destroy the druids forest, obliterate the churches of the good deities and their clerics, steal and corrupt holy artifacts, design and release fattier chocolates, defeat the knighthood of righteous buttsticks, walk on the grass, incite rebellion in good kingdoms, release lay's chip bags with only one chip, create a pop proof pringles can, make vanilla the only ice cream flavor, kidnap the princess and brainwash her, raise the nation of the necromancererers, instigate smear campaigns against the feyfolk, release 4th edition, create a drug running organization designed to addict and kill the goodly wizards, air episodes of happy days and leave it to beaver, evil dragonslayers, opening abyssal portals to over run the world with jay leno demons... The list is endless. All of that could be done now but still doesn't give the folks who like ideas geared towards evil the satisfaction or options. Besides, 4e is a table top combat mini game, so its not like it matters anyways. Personally I'd just use the monster manuals myself... But still.:D PS: Tieflings don't count.:P
#16 darkdiashi Jul 27, 2009 7:02:55	Abyssal power source. Pure blood Baatorian, Pure blood Tanar'rian, Half fiend (demon blooded), Half fiend (devil blooded), Half Baator/Tanar'ri breed. New hellbreeds. It won't ever happen because people want D&D to be all mary poppins/puppy dogs and stuffed animals. (no playable evil) Because THEY don't like it or because THEY can't grasp it. There are thousands upon thousands of evil campaigns that have nothing to do with slaughtering innocent children, brutal sexual assault or any of those other horrible and unfun concepts. Destroy the paladins, pervert or destroy the druids forest, obliterate the churches of the good deities and their clerics, steal and corrupt holy artifacts, design and release fattier chocolates, defeat the knighthood of righteous buttsticks, walk on the grass, incite rebellion in good kingdoms, release lay's chip bags with only one chip, create a pop proof pringles can, make vanilla the only ice cream flavor, kidnap the princess and brainwash her, raise the nation of the necromancererers, instigate smear campaigns against the feyfolk, release 4th edition, create a drug running organization designed to addict and kill the goodly wizards, air episodes of happy days and leave it to beaver, evil dragonslayers, opening abyssal portals to over run the world with jay leno demons... The list is endless. All of that could be done now but still doesn't give the folks who like ideas geared towards evil the satisfaction or options. Besides, 4e is a table top combat mini game, so its not like it matters anyways. Personally I'd just use the monster manuals myself... But still.:D PS: Tieflings don't count.:P Thank you. I'm not looking for **** and baby killing evil campaigns (that stuff should be left out of games in general). But working against the good guys, especially with religous themes, would make for a good game. Feats, wondurous items, alternate powers for existing classes, rituals, etc. all would have to be housed ruled (unless you want the avenger of Asmodeous to deal radiant damage) and new classes and races aimed towards (but not restricted to) evil campaigns would be useful. Though even I would never suggest doing something as hienous as making Vanilla the only ice cream flavor. Even villans need standards.
#17 stogoe Jul 27, 2009 7:05:36	There's definitely no need for an "evil power source." Jinkies. Absolutely. Evil doesn't need special rules. Wouldn't it be great to be able to play a legal, balanced ithilid? Tired of playing a dwarf? try an Azer! Kobolds can come too! While I agree that more races would be awesome, I don't understand why these races have to be explicitly Evil Only. They'd work perfectly fine as normal races. Besides, 4e is a table top combat mini game, so its not like it matters anyways. ...And here's where you lose all semblance of credibility. And "release 4th edition" as an example of an evil act? Jesus. Why don't you just leave if you don't like 4e?
#18 darkdiashi Jul 27, 2009 7:22:21	Absolutely. Evil doesn't need special rules. I'm not looking for special rules. I want specialized options. While I agree that more races would be awesome, I don't understand why these races have to be explicitly Evil Only. They'd work perfectly fine as normal races. As I said in the post prior to yours I want classes and races that are designed for but not restricted to evil campaigns. It's no different then the current classes and races. They are designed to be good. there's no reason you can't run an evil campaign with them. ...And here's where you lose all semblance of credibility. And "release 4th edition" as an example of an evil act? Jesus. Why don't you just leave if you don't like 4e? Judging by his signiture I think it was tounge in cheek.
#19 velstride Jul 27, 2009 15:41:59	While I think it would be a hard sell for wizards to put out a line of more evil themed books, I personally would think it would be amusing. I've run a few evil campaigns myself, as well as good, and have been lucky to have a group that doesn't immediately turn on itself. I do believe there are plenty of shades of grey however, which is why I could see there not necessarily being a need for evil themed books as you could turn almost anything evil. In one case I was running two "seperate" campaigns, only for the characters to realize that their two parties were part of the same campaign and fighting each other the entire time after a couple years of playing. Hence, in many cases, evil is a matter of perspective, and your ability to maintain the shades of grey should be enough Still, it could be amusing to put a few more traditionally evil creatures together in a book with darker classes. Still leaving the option to be good of course, though I for one would love an illithid character. Not sure the class, but...something illithid. At the very least, the topic is good for discussion.
#20 MaoiNeko Jul 27, 2009 16:58:14	I don't like the idea of an evil themed book. Everything can be used by good or evil characters easily. But, if you want them a little more thematic, just throw a coat on the powers to make it so. Now, an Aberrant power source could be pretty cool, but I would hate it to be restricted to evil. I enjoy playing heroes or anti-heroes even and I think this could work great for the latter.
#21 stogoe Jul 27, 2009 17:09:23	I'm not looking for special rules. I want specialized options. What exactly is the difference? What does Good currently get all for itself (beyond Channel Divinity feats)?
#22 Hippolyte Jul 27, 2009 17:12:37	From my perspective there is already much leeway for amoral characters in Eberron: institutionalized thievery, sculduggery and assassination; necromantic elves (yeah, yeah: they have some official rationalization, being "deathless" and all, but let's face it, anyone can see a mummy is a mummy and a lich is a lich); pirate kingdoms; an entire human kingdom whose armies are zombies and skeletons. Just have your character join the Emerald Knights of Vol or swear allegiance to the Daelkyr. All the mechanics and background are there for you.
#23 kimura121 Jul 27, 2009 17:54:09	Just my two cents: Our group never plays a evil campaigns but we definately play some mortally questionable characters at times. I dont think there needs to be a full book dedicated to evil pcs as long as there is some support in the core books. i have been wanting to play an evil bard for some time....i can't wait to give a speach and bring the townsfolk to rioting and I must say i was EXTREMELY dissapointed that there was no blackguard paragon path. i kinda laughed at the grey guard but was still sad inside. i've also been toying with the idea of drow paladin/blackguard with charisma powers using heavy blades. BOOO!
#24 Duke5150 Jul 27, 2009 20:57:58	...And here's where you lose all semblance of credibility. And "release 4th edition" as an example of an evil act? Jesus. Why don't you just leave if you don't like 4e? Its called sarcasm.;) I believe in the "balance", so for every positive comment about something, there needs to be a negative. I'm just trying to help even out the scales, else hiddukel shall reign supreme. <<-- (thats call bad humor.)
#25 DanTracker Jul 27, 2009 21:12:56	I see the point...and perhaps "Evil" themed materials might sell well if they had a loyal following. Personally, I dislike color coding things as "Good" or "Evil". I'm one of those guys who enjoys "Shades of Gray". For example, ... ...what are they to do? --- Wow, that was a bit long winded, and I lost my point in there somewhere... There's no such thing as "Good" and "Evil" in my campaign world, so creating an "Evil PC Book" defeats the purpose. While I might be interested in new mechanics and fluff, the theme of the book would not fit. that is a fantastic way to add some ethical dillemas to the party decision making process. i bow to your amazing wisdom. so far all i've got is, "don't hunt in the forest, guys." "hey, you all want to come hunting in the forest with my brothers so that you can gain our trust and get all the info to complete your quest?" i am amazed by your prowess with ethical problem solving. well done.
#26 KoboldWithTnT Jul 27, 2009 21:24:03	My take on this subject would be that we don't need a Player's Handbook just for evil characters, but that evil characters do need a little something. I was kind of shocked when I didn't find any channel divinity for the evil gods, like Tiamat or Asmodeous. Of course, 'evil' characters need options, and they are simply lacking a few, so it isn't so bad (especially if you have a good imagination for homebrew stuff -you can make what's missing). I'm pretty sure they could make a 'player's guide to evil characters' and a 'DM's guide to evil characters', all they would have to do would be to put a few races, put the missing channel divinity feats and maybe a class that is normally strictly evil that we don't have. They could also add some items to fill the rest of the book (I'm looking at you, Blade of Bahamut, but can't seem to find any flail of Tiamat).
#27 Duke5150 Jul 27, 2009 21:52:30	Well if evil characters and adventures were not popular, then we would not have the option to play them in other games, from table top, to card, to board, to video games. Evil is as popular as good. 4e needs to understand this and give us some options for it beyond the small set of options we have now. Every other edition gave us plenty of evil choices. That last thing I want in my game is the lifestyle guidelines of the masses. (if you play like this, or enjoy this, then your wrong and you fail) Political correctness is not something that should be a standard in D&D. Otherwise we will have dwarves and orcs holding hands. Wood elves and drow going to the movies together and the common dragon seeing human, goblins and kobolds as equals. Blah! Oh our church of lolth no longer hunts down wandering worshippers of larethian because it isn't PC. Pfft, Give me a half fiend blackguard necromancer who butchers the paladins who killed his old crime guild. Give me the rogue who uses backstab the way it was suppose to be used without some BS explaination on how a backstabbing thief can be a hero. Its all personal taste and I and my players like a variety of choices. Lawful good, chaotic evil and true neutral. PS: We also like chaotic good and lawful evil.
#28 darkdiashi Jul 28, 2009 1:12:02	I've heard mention that evil channel divinities are in divine power. Is this true? After taking in all of your opinions I have streamlined my ideas: We do not need an Evil DMG. Perhaps a chapter on Evil Campaigns in DGM3 but that would be all. We also do not need a Hero manual. But they have to start including good 'monsters' in the Monster manual. I want cleric of Pelor to be in there next to Cultist of Bahomet. We do need an Evil themed PHB. Fill it with traditionally evil races and classes but do not limit them to Evil. Perhaps each one even gets a racial background about them being good, ala the Drow. But the book needs to provide enough official options that would appeal to evil characters, new powers for older classes that would be useful to the Evil theme (necotic powers, necromatic utilities, vampiric powers; things we already have but not in abundance), Evil flavored Items, backgrounds, paragon paths, and epic destinies. Also, Lawful Evil might be the most fun to play. A party of Asmodeous and Bane worshiping war-mongers and tyrants that use politics, wars, and a big bad doomsday plan to conquer the natural world, or even one of the planes, would be great to play, especially when Moradin, Pelor, or even Avandra begin to send exarch and avatars to stop them.
#29 darkdiashi Jul 28, 2009 1:18:12	Well if evil characters and adventures were not popular, then we would not have the option to play them in other games, from table top, to card, to board, to video games. Evil is as popular as good. 4e needs to understand this and give us some options for it beyond the small set of options we have now. Every other edition gave us plenty of evil choices. That last thing I want in my game is the lifestyle guidelines of the masses. (if you play like this, or enjoy this, then your wrong and you fail) This is true. Has anyone ever played a sith in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic? They're a blast! Its evil without going overboard. Kill a few bystanders, turn one annoying old guy mute (that was so deliciouly evil. I grow nostalgic just thinking about it...), own a ring in the slave trade. Nothing brutal or debasing. In a game as option intensive as D&D, I believe that to ignore one whole half of morality is a mistake.
#30 Duke5150 Jul 28, 2009 3:52:21	This is true. Has anyone ever played a sith in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic? They're a blast! Its evil without going overboard. Kill a few bystanders, turn one annoying old guy mute (that was so deliciouly evil. I grow nostalgic just thinking about it...), own a ring in the slave trade. Nothing brutal or debasing. In a game as option intensive as D&D, I believe that to ignore one whole half of morality is a mistake. Yup, kotor 1 and 2 as both the light and dark sides. Loved those games. Not only that but also icewind dale, heart of winter, baldurs gate 2, torment, pool of radiance and temple of elemental evil. In most if not all of those games, there are options to play all the alignments and not just good and neutral. I'v beaten them all on all three alignments. It keeps the game interesting past its expiration date. We also have evil options in other games like dawn of war (chaos, necros, dark eldar, orks and so on) although in the warhammer 40k universe, good and evil are not as defined as with D&D. We also have warcraft with the orcs (not really evil but still) and the undead. Starcraft has the zerg. Plenty of other rts games allow evil armies like mechcommander with the clan units and so on. Even fighting games and other types of games allow for evil options. Magic the gathering has plenty of options to run "evil" decks. I could go on and on. Players hand book 4 or 5 could be the "Darkness Within" edition followed by a DMG with suggestions on how to build, detail and run evil campaigns without going overboard. Playing a brain eating zombie, blood sucking vampire or a throat ripping werewolf are not unheard of. Release the Abyssal Power book with addition options for evil characters and a monster manual dedicated to "mostly" good guys to fight. 60% good guys, 40% bad guys would be reasonable. It would make fans of the evil option happy and it would make wotc some money. Anyone who doesn't like running or playing evil characters/campaigns doesn't have to purchase it.;) You could also go with the "redeemed soul" character. Good vampires, werewolves, demons and so forth. THAT is a fun character type to play. Lots of extraordinary role playing opportunities with that type. (some common examples of this type are Drizzt (whether you found him evil or not), Hamanu from athas (depending on your view), Raistlin from dragonlance (depending on your view) and more.)
#31 fey_feline Jul 31, 2009 19:59:14	This might help.
#32 darkdiashi Aug 01, 2009 6:56:44	This might help. Yes it would. very feat intensive though. We could use evil themed ones though. Your sig.... GODBERRY! KING OF THE JUICE!
#33 fey_feline Aug 01, 2009 12:21:07	Yes it would. very feat intensive though. We could use evil themed ones though. Your sig.... GODBERRY! KING OF THE JUICE! lulz Looking at those feats, though... Smiting angels? Deities? Deva?
#34 darkdiashi Aug 01, 2009 16:51:13	Oh certainly. I'm just saying that they should'nt have to rely on divine attacks vs. undead. There are only 9 divine target: undead attacks and most of them use your channel divinity. Make Devilbane into Angelbane, where attacks that target a specific origin now include immortal in the target line.