1. Gods do not influence Abeir in a way that folks from Toril would understand. Sounds like Dark Sun.
2. A lot of the new lands in Toril from Abeir are deserts, extreme geographies, and elementally-themed.
There are other things, like the dragons included in the Returned Abeir continent as well that make me wonder...
Any thoughts?
You obviously didn't read enough on Returned Abeir. Aside from the deserts there are extensive forests, grasslands and a fairly large arctic region. At the present time there are no gods because before returning Abeir was ruled by Primordials and then by Dragons.
Bel
The whole no gods because it was first rules by Primordials then by dragons is definitely not helping your case for "No" in the slightest though.
I don't see them combining the two settings though. The amount of people that would anger is unsettling and it doesn't really make any business sense to do it from where I am standing.
Ah... No!
You obviously didn't read enough on Returned Abeir. Aside from the deserts there are extensive forests, grasslands and a fairly large arctic region.
Well, that doesn't sound like Athas too much, but...
At the present time there are no gods because before returning Abeir was ruled by Primordials and then by Dragons.
...this does, quite a bit.
Now, one of the plot points of Dark Sun was various powerful creatures trying to return life and foliage to Athas as it used to be. What if "Returned Abeir" is Athas after someone did that successfully? And what if they did it by stealing a bit of nature-essence-stuff from Toril? The sympathy between Toril and the stolen bits of it in Athas would cause the two to crash into each other and combine...just as it happened.
Possible?
Well, that doesn't sound like Athas too much, but...
...this does, quite a bit.
Now, one of the plot points of Dark Sun was various powerful creatures trying to return life and foliage to Athas as it used to be. What if "Returned Abeir" is Athas after someone did that successfully? And what if they did it by stealing a bit of nature-essence-stuff from Toril? The sympathy between Toril and the stolen bits of it in Athas would cause the two to crash into each other and combine...just as it happened.
Possible?
Ooh! A conspiracy of cosmological proportions. I like ;). Might make for an interesting homebrew project if nothing else.
At the present time there are no gods because before returning Abeir was ruled by Primordials and then by Dragons.
I know next to nothing about Athas (read an article in either Dungeon or Dragon while they still used paper), but from what i've seen here on the boards, the lack of Deities is attributed to there being no (or a very tenuous) connection to the Outer Planes/Astral Sea. In that sense, i'd agree that this conflicts with the premise that Abier was dominated by Primordials in the place of Deities, since there's no mention of a faulty link to the Astral...
However! Abier may very well have been inspired by Athas. With my limited knowledge, i can't rule that out (assuming there is a way to rule out such inspiration without interviewing the decision-makers).
Ok, the whole grasslands things does make it unlikely.
Actually, the whole grasslands thing is completely apropos for Athas. To the west of the Tyr Region is a massive savanna called the Crimson Savannah. What they've shown of it is bigger than the Tyr Region and most of the rest of the world. It appears to be bigger than the Silt Sea. And that isn't it in its entirety, as it continues off-map without any appearance of stopping. All of it shown is controlled by a gargantuan thri-kreen empire.
We also have no knowledge of the north, so no clue as to an arctic region.
The whole no gods because it was first rules by Primordials then by dragons is definitely not helping your case for "No" in the slightest though.
Agreed, to a degree. However, the dragons as described are nothing at all like the sorcerer-monarchs, and the island transferred from Abeir likewise appears nothing like Athas. Also, there is no appearance at all, much less a prevalence of psionics on said island. That is a huge mark against the theory. Almost everyone from there should be psionic if Abeir is Athas at ANY point from the early Green Age or beyond, as psionics is THE most abundant non-martial power source available from that point on.
I don't see them combining the two settings though. The amount of people that would anger is unsettling and it doesn't really make any business sense to do it from where I am standing.
I likewise don't see them combining the two settings.
I know next to nothing about Athas (read an article in either Dungeon or Dragon while they still used paper), but from what i've seen here on the boards, the lack of Deities is attributed to there being no (or a very tenuous) connection to the Outer Planes/Astral Sea. In that sense, i'd agree that this conflicts with the premise that Abier was dominated by Primordials in the place of Deities, since there's no mention of a faulty link to the Astral...
However! Abier may very well have been inspired by Athas. With my limited knowledge, i can't rule that out (assuming there is a way to rule out such inspiration without interviewing the decision-makers).
The faulty link to the Astral was sort of implied with Abeir as it was(and may still be) impossible to reach Abeir via the the Astral prior to the Spellplague.
Agreed, to a degree. However, the dragons as described are nothing at all like the sorcerer-monarchs, and the island transferred from Abeir likewise appears nothing like Athas. Also, there is no appearance at all, much less a prevalence of psionics on said island. That is a huge mark against the theory. Almost everyone from there should be psionic if Abeir is Athas at ANY point from the early Green Age or beyond, as psionics is THE most abundant non-martial power source available from that point on.
Well we do know that psionics is fully present in Abeir as we know that empaths were present there. I don't know how prevalent psionics were in Dark Sun, so I don't know if them definatly being there is enough or not.
Abeir was a clone of Toril created by Ao and given to the Primordials to rule over so that a truce was called. It's how the Dawn War ended in the FR setting.
Abeir was always harsh because of Primordial rule and only lacked the gods because it was ruled over by the Primordials. in FR cosmology it did have ties to the Astral Sea but Ao forbade the gods from dealing with it (and possibly hid it from their view).
The only races that developed differently on Abeir were genasi and dragonborn (the first only rarely appeared on Toril, and the second didn't exist at all). Humans, elves/eladrin, halflings, dwarves, and others still looked and developed the same if they developed at all.
Athas supposedly had gods and wasn't always harsh. When the astral plane link was severed and the gods 'lost' other forms of magic and worship took root. Some casters found a way to grow more powerful by sucking hte lifeforce out of the earth around them and the use of this is what turned Athas into a desert in many places. Of course some oppose such actions. Over time many races adapted to the desert life so looked different than most world's counterparts (flesh eating halflings, 7' tall skinny elves) and new races appeared. I always saw Athas as being inspired by the original Beastmaster movie with god-priests, vaste wastelands, odd creatures, and harsh living.
While some of the environment may be similar Athas and Abeir have very different histories and racial makeup. Plus the only parts of Abeir we really know of are the small sections of it that have appeared on Toril (and presumably those parts of Toril are now on Abeir including the entire continent of Maztica).
After all the world of Abeir was never in the past editions of FR because it was created to help add in the new 4e races, the Primordials, and remove a couple of 'trouble' regions in a dramatic way (Maztica and Mulhurond with their own pantheon apart from all others). It's existence hidden from Toril explains why the Primordials existence wasn't known on Toril previously outside a couple of 'old gods' that were very different from the rest.
Well we do know that psionics is fully present in Abeir as we know that empaths were present there. I don't know how prevalent psionics were in Dark Sun, so I don't know if them definatly being there is enough or not.
I missed the "empaths" part of Abeir, so there are some psionics on that world.
However, psionics, from the time of the Green Age (which is many thousands of years ago) onwards to the present day, is hands-down, the most prevalent non-martial power source. Take primal, arcane, "divine", elemental, and shadow magic users, add them all together, and you STILL don't have near the number of beings either naturally or trained in the use of psionics. Not even close.
In fact, 99.99% of ALL beings on the planet, including all PCs, have at least one psionic ability that varies from minor stuff like being able to blow a light breeze around yourself or change your haircolor or telekinetically nudge tiny objects (in other words, no mechanical benefit), to mid-range abilities such as jumping a little further or telekinetically lifting small objects ala Mage Hand or feeling surface emotions, to potent abilities like reading minds or telekinetically ripping someone apart. The natural animals, like bears and cats and birds and insects...virtually all psionic. Some species of plants...psionic. There are even some psionically-enhanced microbes that leech mental energy from those they infect. The entire world is chock full of psionic power.
So, no, I really don't think Abeir has been presented as psionic to even a tiny fraction of the degree to which Athas is. Which is the major reason I don't think Abeir is Athas.
I don't see them combining the two settings though. The amount of people that would anger is unsettling and it doesn't really make any business sense to do it from where I am standing.
I'm not from that time, but from what I've gathered and the material I've read on Athas, I distinctly remember reading about a fan theory that Athas was a post-apocalyptic Faerun.
I'm not from that time, but from what I've gathered and the material I've read on Athas, I distinctly remember reading about a fan theory that Athas was a post-apocalyptic Faerun.
The way Athas looks and behaves it could be post-apocalyptic Krynn, Oerth, Mystara, Eberron, or Earth as well. It was quite distinct from all other settings which is what gave it its popularity. It removed divine, primal, and arcane magics almost entirely and upped the psionics to nuclear meltdown levels. What little arcane/divine there was left was mostly destructive (defilers).
I'm not from that time, but from what I've gathered and the material I've read on Athas, I distinctly remember reading about a fan theory that Athas was a post-apocalyptic Faerun.
Yeah, I kinda remember that. I was around during a lot of the early era of DS, when it first came out, on various BBSs and when the Web first came out.
The earliest mention of that theory I can remember was due strictly to the name "Tyr", and the temple under the city of Tyr. It was surmised that this temple was a temple to Tyr, and the city above was named after him, with that theoretical real reason for the name lost to the ages. That was the gist of it, and I remember it spreading from there. Of course, this was like 15+ years ago, so my memory is pretty hazy.
It was a very flimsy rationale, as I recall. None of the maps lined up with FR maps, none of the history lined up with FR history, none of the other temples to deities matched up to other FR deities, and so on.
...this does, quite a bit.
No, not at all. In the end the primordials are just deities with annother name.
No, not at all. In the end the primordials are just deities with annother name.
--No gods worshiped as such
--Elemental beings worshiped as gods and/or granting power to "elemental clerics"
--Dragon (sorcerer-kings) in charge
Ayup, sounds like Athas.
--No gods worshiped as such
--Elemental beings worshiped as gods and/or granting power to "elemental clerics"
--Dragon (sorcerer-kings) in charge
Yet primordials don't act like the elemental cults of Athas but act just like their astral counterparts. They're individual beings whose existence is known and proven, who have extraplanar realms, temples, churchs and the standard host of divine classes serving them and receiving spells from them.
They're not the unknown elemental forces of Athas.
Yet primordials don't act like the elemental cults of Athas but act just like their astral counterparts. They're individual beings whose existence is known and proven, who have extraplanar realms, temples, churchs and the standard host of divine classes serving them and receiving spells from them.
They're not the unknown elemental forces of Athas.
Come on! We're trying to come up with a conspiracy theory! Work with us here!
Come on! We're trying to come up with a conspiracy theory! Work with us here!
Haha, okay. I think both sides have some merrit. Clearly Abeir and Athas are not the same thing, but i think there is good reason to believe the former has been heavily influenced by the latter. Many key features don't match up, but a bit of the general flavour does seem to. It may be something like how Spelljammer found itself jammed into 4e (pun intended). We don't have everything -- in fact, we have almost nothing -- but it seems clear that Spelljammer vehicle, at the least, was roughly ported over from that setting.
Who knows, maybe as we get more material, the parallels will become more compelling. Maybe they will weaken. Time will tell.
Just coincidence. It's a bold thought, and I kinda wish we had thought of it, but I doubt we would have had the gumption to really inflict Athas on Toril, or Toril on Athas. I can't imagine that either setting would have really benefited from that.
(maybe I should submit my crazy ideas to WotC instead of here ...;)
Halfing Jungles... the Tyr Dragon
Half-Giants... sounds more feasible when Giants and Titans are Elemental anyway
There are no Thri-kreen not even in the Monster Manual...
For my gaming purposes... Abeir will be Athas from here on out!!
There were also Githyanki in Athas... no Githzeri and i think i remember a 3 book adventure that had 1 mindflayer in it?? cant remember, but i still have my dragon of Tyr book... and the whole Dragon/Winged thing(can't remember) sounds like Epic Destinies to me
interesting idea....
These worlds are a shared fiction, remember. There's no objective reality to them to hold ideas up against.
That would be even more Catastrophic of an event, and would take some serious magic... although these are 3 distinct worlds we are talking about...
The name of the game is "Imagination!!!"
If you look at the dragons in DS vs the regular dnd dragons they're nothing alike in any shape or form. DS dragons were once the champions of rajaat and the sole purpose of them being dragons was to keep him imprisoned. Someone said something about the githyanki, no its just a offshoot of the gith race simply called the Gith. Haflings are way different, elves are different, no thri-kreen on Abeir. On another note i wouldn't mind seeing DS make a comeback for 4e, if nothing more then for reading... :D
There are no Thri-kreen not even in the Monster Manual...
HOWEVER, once PHB3 and MM3 come out and we have a Psionic class, SURELY there will be Thri-kreen. And once there are Thri-kreen in the MM3, they'll be all over Abeir.
So its a moot point-- just because we don't have stats for them doesn't mean they won't instantly appear and we'll be told they were there all along once we do have stats for them.
Someone said something about the githyanki, no its just a offshoot of the gith race simply called the Gith.
You have this backwards. Gith are not an offshoot of Githyanki, rather Githzerai and Githyanki are just two different Gith tribes that have developed their own traditions and specialties. In Dark Sun, the Gith race just never split in two in the first place.
Yet primordials don't act like the elemental cults of Athas but act just like their astral counterparts. They're individual beings whose existence is known and proven, who have extraplanar realms, temples, churchs and the standard host of divine classes serving them and receiving spells from them.
Actually, Primordials do not get divine classes serving them (since divine power stems from the Astral Sea). Their servants use the Elemental power source, which has not been released yet. They are sometimes worshipped as deities by mortals, but they do not grant the same powers and they lack some of the same traits. Discorporation is a key trait deities possess that other Powers, like primordials and archfey, do not possess. Another trait is the inability to be affected, at all, by creatures lower than level 20.
coincidence?
I think not
Get it? Dark Sun? Water? HA!
Actually, Primordials do not get divine classes serving them (since divine power stems from the Astral Sea).
That's not correct. At least 4 primordials have ordinary priesthoods in 4e FR and are eligible as player deities for LFR RPGA games.
Their servants use the Elemental power source, which has not been released yet. They are sometimes worshipped as deities by mortals, but they do not grant the same powers
Tell that to the clerics, paladins, avengers, ... of Kossuth, Gruumbar, Akadi, or Istishia.
and they lack some of the same traits. Discorporation is a key trait deities possess that other Powers, like primordials and archfey, do not possess. Another trait is the inability to be affected, at all, by creatures lower than level 20.
First of all the combat stats have no say about the fuff-stuff (no deity actually has a "grant divine power" ability anywhere in the stat-block). Second the powerfull primordials actually do have the invulnerability toward creatures <20 level (see Rorn or Mual'tar, both of which also possess the same "instant saving throw" trait like deities) and not all deities have this trait (see Maglibuyet). Third while primordials indeed don't have the discorporation trait there are also deities who do not possess this ability (see Maglibuyet).
All in all the whole stats for cosmic entities thing is a mess in 4e. The designers lack a common concept. They can't even agree whether "deity" and "primordial" are keywords or not (Vecna has the "deity" keyword (Medium immortal humanoid, deity (undead)), Tiamat doesn't (Huge immortal magical beast (dragon)). Rorn has the "primordial" keyword, no other primodrial has)