What about the races without variable ability scores that aren't in the Essentials line, for example those found in the FR and Eberron campaign guides (Minus the Changeling, which already has a variable ability score)? Are Genasi going to be upgraded to (hypothetically) +2 Str/Con & +2 Int? Kalashtar +2 Cha/Int & +2 Wis (again hypothetically)?
Or are these races going to be left in the dust?
I think that DEX is a lot more likely than INT for Kalashtar, though.
In my opinion, they'll very likely eventually be updated even if they're not updated immediately.
I think that DEX is a lot more likely than INT for Kalashtar, though.
Agreed on Dex, though I made my predictions months back, and lets hope this thread doesn't become one of those again.
Bill Slavicsek said that all races would have gotten the Changeling/PH3/DS variable ability score bonus treatment through errata even without Essentials. So while all races will get the errata in the near future, the Essentials books will just start with the errata in it.
While the Essentials classes are getting major face-lifts and new spins on them, I haven't seen any evidence that the races in Essentials will be anything but reprints of the races in various Player's Handbooks and Campaign Settings, save with the updated errata applied.
Do you have a link to whereever it is that Bill Slavicsek talks about all races getting the errata? I only vaguely remember reading the blurb, and I must have misremembered the quote as only talking about the Essential races.
All in all, I'm generally in favor of the new variable scores. A teeny part of me wishes that Changelings would get two sets two variable scores to keep with their higher-than-average versatility (Say, "Dex or Con" and "Int or Cha"). I know that probably won't happen though, so I'm not that worried about it, and I think Changelings are already a cool enough race to not need anything extra. It was just a cool bit of mechanics informing flavor, with the race's general mutability.
Was there any word on what humans get? Or are they considered versatile enough?
I don't think I was suggesting that there'd be any changes other than the variable ability scores with the errata. If that was implied, that wasn't my intent.
Do you have a link to whereever it is that Bill Slavicsek talks about all races getting the errata? I only vaguely remember reading the blurb, and I must have misremembered the quote as only talking about the Essential races.
All in all, I'm generally in favor of the new variable scores. A teeny part of me wishes that Changelings would get two sets two variable scores to keep with their higher-than-average versatility (Say, "Dex or Con" and "Int or Cha"). I know that probably won't happen though, so I'm not that worried about it, and I think Changelings are already a cool enough race to not need anything extra. It was just a cool bit of mechanics informing flavor, with the race's general mutability.
Was there any word on what humans get? Or are they considered versatile enough?
I wasn't suggesting you were – my point was that if they're reprints basically from the errata, the errata will come around the same time: almost certainly in October when the next errata is.
The quote is here. It's actually Mike Mearls who said it; however, it's in a Bill Slavicsek Ampersand column, only he's quoting Mike about it.
Probably never happen; I want humans to get +2 to two stats of the players choice.
That would be very cool... or say +3 to one stat
Probably never happen; I want humans to get +2 to two stats of the players choice.
That would be very cool... or say +3 to one stat
Odd ability score bonuses do not work within the current system.
Probably never happen; I want humans to get +2 to two stats of the players choice.
That would be very cool... or say +3 to one stat
Odd ability score bonuses do not work within the current system.
Can you elaborate on that statement? If I want a 20 in my main stat at 1st level with a +2 bonus I'd have to "buy an 18" with points - if I had +3 then I'd only have to buy a 17. That's 4pts left to boost other stats.
Yeah, that'd be awesome, but it'll probably never happen even though it could very likely be balanced simply be removing the Human's defense bonuses in exchange.
IMO they have to give up their extra feat for it. Or rather, they can take a feat for +2.
Probably never happen; I want humans to get +2 to two stats of the players choice.
That would be very cool... or say +3 to one stat
Odd ability score bonuses do not work within the current system.
Can you elaborate on that statement? If I want a 20 in my main stat at 1st level with a +2 bonus I'd have to "buy an 18" with points - if I had +3 then I'd only have to buy a 17. That's 4pts left to boost other stats.
Agreed, odd ability scores work fine with point buy. Though IMO +3 would be bad (+1 would be ok).
Probably never happen; I want humans to get +2 to two stats of the players choice.
That would be very cool... or say +3 to one stat
Odd ability score bonuses do not work within the current system.
Can you elaborate on that statement? If I want a 20 in my main stat at 1st level with a +2 bonus I'd have to "buy an 18" with points - if I had +3 then I'd only have to buy a 17. That's 4pts left to boost other stats.
Depending on whether or not your initial stat is even or odd, you get a different effective bonus, whereas even ability score bonuses grant uniform benefits.
If you start with a 13 and add 3 points, you have a 16, going from +1 to +3.
If you start with a 14 and add 3 points, you have a 17, going from +2 to +3, less of a benefit than in the previous example. This is why everybody gets +2; you always gain 1 point of effective bonus.
Hrm. I wonder what's gonna happen with Shifters? Will Longtooths and Razorclaws be identical now, and the only choice is in which racial encounter power you want? Or is the one shared ability boost between them going to be optional?
In otherwords are they going to be...
A) +2 Wis. Pick +2 Str/Dex. Pick Razorclaw Shifting or Longthooth Shifting.
(This would allow Longtooth Shifters with Dex/Wis and Razorclaw Shifters with Str/Wis)
or
B) Razorclaw Shifters have +2 Dex, then Pick +2 Wis or +2 (hypothetically) Con. And Longtooth Shifters have +2 Str, then Pick +2 Wis or +2 (again, hypothetically) Con.
(This would make the "shifter" race as a whole representative of many types of shifters, but all Razorclaws would still be +2 dex, and all Longtooths would still be +2 str. It also makes each individual shifter type as versatile as any other individual race, but the "shifter" category of races more versatile).
or even maybe...
C) Shifters won't get changed, as they're already "+2 Wis, +2 Str/Con", regardless of shifter type.
What do you think?
Shifters might not change due to the fact they already have variable stats as the changeling does. No matter which stats they give to the older races there will be people who say that (enter race name here) should hev gotten this stat instead of the stat they got, you can not please everyone all the time.
Very true.
At this point, I think the question is really...
Are they going to please the group who wants attributes assigned by the races' fluff, background, and description?
Or are they going to please the group who wants attributes assigned based on which classes they want the races to be "good at"?
(Noting that there's a massive amount of overlap.)
And there will be a group who's upset they did it in the first place.
And a group thats upset about more errata.
And a group that will be happy with the changes, a portion of which will fight back against the angry threads only to be told to 'they didn't do their research' that "they dont know the classics' or that "they play MMO's" (because thats an insult apparently).
Probably never happen; I want humans to get +2 to two stats of the players choice.
yes please
Yeah, that'd be awesome, but it'll probably never happen even though it could very likely be balanced simply be removing the Human's defense bonuses in exchange.
just leave a +1 to will, they seem to stress human will and resolve with the feats anyway
Humans have always lagged in the stat-bonus department. Now that all races are going to have some choice of stat bonus, the human +2 to any is less of a big deal, and +2 to any two really wouldn't be outrageous. Another alternative would be +2 to a specific stat (CON, maybe? - half-elves are surprisingly durrable, presumably due to their human heritage, and human feats revolve around 'resilience' and 'perserverence' and whatnot) and +2 to any other.
I think half-elf stats are representstive of "hybrid vigor" a phenomenon where children of individuals from two very distinct populations are above-average in breeding traits of the species in question and overall health. The major breeding trait of human is "charisma" and overall health = constitution.
The major breeding trait of human is "charisma"
I always thought that a human probably had to be really high on the charisma scale to get an elf to sleep with them in the first place, so half-elven children would have a reasonable chance of inheriting some of that. I agree about the Con bonus being representative of hybrid vigor, though.
This was disscussed at length in another thread and was proven that an odd number bonus at character creation, works in a point buy system. Someone did the math and posted it and it works fine, it might not have in previous editions but in this edition it works just fine. I have tried it on the character builder and other than getting the houseruled title the world did not end. Most people use the racial modifiers to save themselves points when making a character, thus allowing them to spend more points elsewhere. Its surprising that people have yet to realize this. I for one am looking foreward to the older races getting the same treatment as the PHB3/DS races have. Any idea when the offical errata for this will drop?
Odd, my memory from that discussion, assuming we read the same and not parellel threads, depending on your stat spread having a series of +1s came out to equal or WORSE than +2/+2, while having a +3 exceeded the point buy- it certainly wasn't always fair.
This entire thread is silly, there was no quote saying ability scores would get errata.
There's plenty suggesting that they will. For example:
"The only changes we embraced were ones that we would have implemented even if we were not producing the Essentials products. That’s why things like the new approach to racial stat modifiers appeared in Player’s Handbook 3 and the higher monster damage appeared in Monster Manual 3."
and
"We very carefully designed the new classes and added more options to the races in such a way that existing characters remain unchanged."
Following the logic that (1) they are adding more options to the existing races and (2) the new approach to racial stat modifiers that appeared in the PHB3 is something that they like and want to continue running with... It just seems pretty obvious to me.
'We embraced the new racial stat modifiers that appeared in Player’s Handbook 3.'
'We added more options to the races.'
QFT
YES they actually do (I couldn't keep up the shouting), and it's outdated thinking to believe they don't.
Under 3e, odd ability score bonuses supposedly didn't work well because the default assumption for character generation was still random die rolls. So the trick was to give the same bonus or penalty to the person who rolled a 13 as to the person who rolled a 12. Odd bonuses were more valuable to somebody who had rolled odd than someone who rolled even. Of course they were never actually as bad as all that, since ability score increases over 20 levels were odd, and feat requirements always caused an odd score. And in the case of a floating +1, like what we're discussing for a human, it's almost always useful, since odds are at least one of your scores will be an odd one you can bring to the next higher rank.
But, in 4e, the default rule is point buy, and the bonuses aren't really "+2" as they are a variable discount on the cost to buy a particular score. Odd and even scores are merely choices with various costs along a spectrum, and a +1 is always a smaller boost than a +2 on that spectrum.
For instance: I want to start play with a 18 dexterity, this costs me 16 points to do, assuming I assigned a beginning score of 10 (as opposed to an 8). If I play an elf, it only costs me 9 points, the cost of a 16, thus saving me 7 points that I can now assign to something else, like strength or charisma.
On the other hand, a +1 bonus, like many want to give the theoretical human, would allow me to save 4 points rather than 9, which is a pretty nice deal, and about half the value of a +2.
A +2/+2 to the primary/secondary stats of a class is equal to 14 extra build points assuming you want to start with 18/18.
A +2/+1 is equal to 11 extra build points. In every other build option (18/16, 20/14, etc.) it's worth less.
A floating +1 can be better than a fixed +2, assuming the fixed +2 is not going to be applied to a primary or secondary ability. For instance, a +1 taking a Con score from 17 to 18 (4 points) is more valuable to a battlerage fighter than the +2 to charisma (2 points) for being a dragonborn. Most of the time though, even those are worth exactly the same amount (2 points to go, say from 15 to 16 adds the same amount of points as going from 8 to 10). Of course not all stats are created equal, but if one planned to spend any points at all on an ability, then a fixed +2 is as good or better than a floating +1.
In point buy, odd bonuses work just fine.
I would tend to agree here it is a simple math equation nothing more.
Crimson citing the devs:
'We embraced the new racial stat modifiers that appeared in Player’s Handbook 3.'
'We added more options to the races.'
QFT
In Essentials. There was no comment about making any changes to existing classes outside the essentials books. I would feel fairly safe in guessing that there will be no changes to races other than dwarves, eladrin, elves, halflings, dragonborn, drow, half-elves, half-orcs, tieflings, and maybe humans. That said:
Hrm. I wonder what's gonna happen with Shifters? Will Longtooths and Razorclaws be identical now, and the only choice is in which racial encounter power you want? Or is the one shared ability boost between them going to be optional?
An interesting question. I still doubt that any races other than the above will get changes, but if they did, it would be cool to see extensions of the shifter theme. For instance, abyssal genasi could get +2 Str/+2 Cha, or half-elves that get +2 Wis will have a feature other than Dilettante. (I kind of hope not--this would create fewer options, in the half-elf's case, rather than more.)
I just hope they're careful. I could easily see them giving Tieflings a Con bonus, not realizing how that interacts with Blood Pact of Cania, which would end up quite broken. Similarly, dragonborn with +2 Con/+2 Cha would be too good for most Cha-based classes (since dragonborn use Con for their racial features).
Umm ... whos left?
Genasi, Goliath, Warforged, Deva, Kalashtar?
I bet you, they get optional abilities too.
Eberron Changeling and (sorta) Shifter already get op abs, why not Warforged and Kalashtar?
Forgotten Realms Drow already get them, why not Genasi?
PB2 Gnome and Half-Orc get them, why not Deva and Goliath?
Besides, Dark Sun Mul definitely have them, and Goliath will probably get them as Dark Sun Half-Giant.
It seems safe to predict all player races get op abs.
In addition to the races Haldrik lists, there are also those from Dragon Magazine - Gnoll, Shadar-Kai, Revenants, and the like. The S-K are likely to be updated in Heroes of Shadow, and maybe Revenants, too. The others, again, probably in Dragon sometime.
I personally Hope Revenants will get Con + any one stat that the parent race gets a bonus in. Oh, sure, it will overpower an already overpowered race, but it makes it much easier to build revenant-ized undead versions of any murdered character, which is a big part of the fun of the race. One of the best story hooks for Revenants is raising a TPK'd party as revenants and having them quest to restore themselves to full life by taking revenge for their own murder - but that doesn't work so good when any characters who aren't Dex or Con primary lose their racial bump to their primary stat.
Sounds like a safe bet. The Aug issue of Dragon lists Gnome, Eladrin, and Drow. So Dragon seems to be the venue of choice to release the racial updates.
Even tho these races seem to be a 'preview' for Essentials, theyr listed as standard 'Winning Races' articles. The devs said theyd update the races with or without Essentials. As such this non-Essentials presentation seems to confirm the racial updates go beyond Essentials races.
I am about to play a Skirmishing Presence Warlord in Dark Sun, so I hoped for an Str + Int, or Str + Wis race. As Dwarves will get Con + Str/Wis, I really wished Muls would get Str + Con/Wis, instead of getting the same as Dwarves. Apparently, for no luck.
Now I only trust Goliath (Half-Giant) to be Str + Con/Wis as basicly any other ability combination would less logical. Of course that never held WotC back...
so I hoped for an Str + Int,
There are genasi in DarkSun, IIRC.
Wander: 'There will be no changes to races other than dwarves, eladrin, elves, halflings, dragonborn, drow, half-elves, half-orcs, tieflings, and maybe humans.'
Umm ... whos left?
Genasi, Goliath, Warforged, Deva, Kalashtar?
I bet you, they get optional abilities too.
Eberron Changeling and (sorta) Shifter already get op abs, why not Warforged and Kalashtar?
Forgotten Realms Drow already get them, why not Genasi?
PB2 Gnome and Half-Orc get them, why not Deva and Goliath?
Besides, Dark Sun Mul definitely have them, and Goliath will probably get them as Dark Sun Half-Giant.
It seems safe to predict all player races get op abs.
You mention that Dorw already get alternate stats here. Where is that stated? I couldn't find any referrence to this.
Because the Drow are one of the Essential races (Forgotton Kingdoms), and all Esl races will get alternate abs. But we still dont know which ab theyl get.
so I hoped for an Str + Int,
There are genasi in DarkSun, IIRC.
You are right, and Minotaurs are there for STR+WIS, still, it looks kind of moot that Muls get the same ability modifiers as Dwarfs. I would have preferred STR+CON/WIS. At least in the previous version it was stronger than healthy (+2STR, +1CON)
so I hoped for an Str + Int,
There are genasi in DarkSun, IIRC.
You are right, and Minotaurs are there for STR+WIS, still, it looks kind of moot that Muls get the same ability modifiers as Dwarfs. I would have preferred STR+CON/WIS. At least in the previous version it was stronger than healthy (+2STR, +1CON)
It's less that they're health as it is that they can endure the most intense toiling labour all day, day after day after day. That's Constitution, not Strength. Strength lets them lift boulders up, yes, but Constitution lets them carry them miles across country on their backs.
Of course, Strength to keep holding it up… but The extreme stress on the body would be understood through Constitution. And some labour is less Strength and more Constitution, such as tilling vast fields.
Also, the ability to survive in Gladiatorial combat as long as possible… Mul were originally bred for that purpose. Constitution would be more important than Strength, because the last one standing will be the victor. As long as you can survive to throw more hits, your hits can be weaker.
It's less that they're health as it is that they can endure the most intense toiling labour all day, day after day after day. That's Constitution, not Strength. Strength lets them lift boulders up, yes, but Constitution lets them carry them miles across country on their backs.
Of course, Strength to keep holding it up… but The extreme stress on the body would be understood through Constitution. And some labour is less Strength and more Constitution, such as tilling vast fields.
Also, the ability to survive in Gladiatorial combat as long as possible… Mul were originally bred for that purpose. Constitution would be more important than Strength, because the last one standing will be the victor. As long as you can survive to throw more hits, your hits can be weaker.
As I said, I understand the fluff. However, historically (2nd edition) it was the same fluff, still they got a higher ability modifier for Str than for Con. Because, as far as I can remember, Dwarves had +1Str +2Con, and Muls had the other way around +2Str and +1Con. It was wise, as who needs an identical twin of the dwarves, in an optimising sense.
Now they made the mistake that was avoided last time. Considering rules, not fluff, you can say, that Mul is a copy of the Dwarf, not a mix between Human and Dwarf. Can even take the same feats.
I would rather see the fluff modified, than redundant races.