mearls;10346424 wrote:
I am looking forward to their handling of the Elemental source, hoping it will combine concepts of transmutation and combination through the use of elemental energies.
If Sorcerers aren't Elemental, that what are?
For Psionic Power, I can think a few classes.
Same for Shadow. I could even think of a few for Ki, though, I am good with them folding that into Psionics.
But for Elemental, I can't think of any classes
That could also mean they're not moving forward with them either
*runs*
* Taking an existing class and sticking elemental gimmicks onto it (Your sword is a Flaming Sword of Fire, and you're of the Flamesword Class!)
* Taking a Wizard or Sorcerer and limiting all of their spells to one elemental type (Why roll a Wizard when you can roll up a Pyromancer!? It's just like a wizard, except all it can do is control fire! Whee!)
* Giving each class control over all four Elements, in which case you'd be Aang or Captain Planet + another class.
Elemental classes could come in 3 varieties:
* Taking an existing class and sticking elemental gimmicks onto it (Your sword is a Flaming Sword of Fire, and you're of the Flamesword Class!)
* Taking a Wizard or Sorcerer and limiting all of their spells to one elemental type (Why roll a Wizard when you can roll up a Pyromancer!? It's just like a wizard, except all it can do is control fire! Whee!)
* Giving each class control over all four Elements, in which case you'd be Aang or Captain Planet + another class.
Ya know...I happen to like Avatar: The Last Airbender. BUT...I don't think they should be the basis for the elemental power source. They're pretty much arcanists or psionicists as far as I'm concerned, with some sort of cultural bias towards a single element. But still...I like A:tLA.
Other than that, I agree with you about classes for the elemental power source.
Elemental classes could also come in a way that none of us (or atleast those of us who've vocalised being unable to think of any other concept) have come up with yet.
Unless they start making subsystems again...which they'd better not...there's nothing that the elements can do that can't already be done in spades by others. There's nothing unique for them. 4e is flexible...but not THAT flexible.
Unless they start making subsystems again...which they'd better not...there's nothing that the elements can do that can't already be done in spades by others. There's nothing unique for them. 4e is flexible...but not THAT flexible.
Should I be the one who brings up the half serious point that the same can be said about any class outside of cleric, rogue, fighter, and wizard? And even then I'm sure that someone out there could make an argument to compress that down to three classes or less.
Elemental classes could also come in a way that none of us (or atleast those of us who've vocalised being unable to think of any other concept) have come up with yet.
Which is far more logical that constantly saying "I can't think of how it'll be done, so clearly that means it can't be done!"
Should I be the one who brings up the half serious point that the same can be said about any class outside of cleric, rogue, fighter, and wizard? And even then I'm sure that someone out there could make an argument to compress that down to three classes or less.
I've tried that in other threads. It was dismissed by people who are absolutely certain that there's no way to make Elemental different.
cleric, rogue, fighter, and wizard
Variety for the sake of variety will only get you so far. We don't need Air Wizard, Water Cleric, Earth Fighter, and Fire Rogue just for the sake of variety and to fill out a desire to do something with elements.
In case anyone's curious here's Mearls' entire post:
Ki could come back, the twitter from Mike Merals says it all: http://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1760423007
This makes me a bit concerned for the futures of the other unreleased power sources, Elemental and Shadow. If they decide they can do without Ki, what else can they do without?Elemental and shadow aren't going anywhere. When we thought about ki, we also thought a lot about other power sources. We did some concept work on story and mechanics as a proof of concept.
(In general, that's a key component of our design approach. We're less into doing things now because they seem like good ideas. We'll do them because we can prove that they are good ideas.)
Transmuter/Truenamer (FMA Alchemist) (Leader)
Shudinja (5 element caster, "Cleric" of primordials) (Controller)
Demonoligist/Binder (Binding the denzions of the EC and Abyss to his will) (summoning Defender)
Elementalist (Element-focused "Bender") (striker)
Great, Elemental. Four classes based around stereotypical application of the elements. Earth Defender, Fire Striker, Water Leader, Air Controller. Yay for originality.
Maybe;' there'll be a 5th class that uses Heart and then maybe if you have a table of 5 players, all with one of the elements, then you can combine your powers to form Captain D&D... oh never mind...
Great, Elemental. Four classes based around stereotypical application of the elements. Earth Defender, Fire Striker, Water Leader, Air Controller. Yay for originality. Surely none of those could be achieved via dual classing a Sorcerer with a Warden, Ranger, Cleric, or Wizard. Or Four stiker classes based soley around one ability - moving a certain kind of matter around. "Look! I'm moving around slightly more water thanks to my feat!" Huzzah. Avatar the Last Airbender in DnD.
Can I borrow your time machine?
Classes like the Truenamer are something I see most likely; people who alter the shape of the raw matter of the world, giving thanks to the primordials as you do so.
It's good to hear Elemental's still going. It should be interesting. Especially if I'm right about it.
Shugenja and Wu Jen are probably there, but in what form, and how they relate to the story of Elemental, there's no way of telling as of yet.
I'm looking forward to this.
I think Elemental will be Transmuters and Truenamers, manipulating the elemental building blocks of themselves and others for various ends.
4 Elemental classes... hmmm
Transmuter (FMA Alchemist)
Shudinja (5 element caster, "Cleric" of primordials)
Demonoligist/Binder (Binding the denzions of the EC and Abyss to his will)
...
...Can someone help me with a fourth? I want a melee elementalist, but I wouldn't know how it would work or what to call it.
Those are . . . well, decent. I'm having trouble seeing the Elemental Cleric idea, kind of.
OK, outside of the regular definitions, I think we can come up with a FEW concepts, but they're not what people would usually think of when they use the world "Elemental".
Alchemist: Mid-Range Controller/Striker
Alchemists are wielders of mystic knowledge of matter and energy. By using a combination of chemistry and magic, you are able to convert one substance to another, and to reshape matter at will.
The Alchemist uses his powers to transmute his surroundings - particularly equipment, metals, and flesh - into other substances, the complexity and scope of the transformations grows as the Alchemist does. Is exceptionally good at striking one enemy with debilitating transformations or causing large chemical reactions and explosions.
Summoner: Ranged Controller
Summoners control spirits that personify the raw fury of the elements. By forming pacts with these chaotic creatures, the Summoner is able to wreak large-scale havoc on the foes.
The Summoner essentially has a wide variety of monsters from Elemental planes to summon. Some of them will fulfill the roles of other classes (IE - a Leader pet, a Defender Pet) but most of them are concerned with doing large scale area of effect damage.
Incarnate: Melee Striker/Defender
The Incarnate has transformed his body into a living elemental cauldron, being able to shift from a being of pure fire, water, air, and earth to deal close range damage to his foes.
The Incarnate is sort of like the Druid meets a Monk - he has 4 different Elemental transformations that allow him to do barefisted damage with elemental effects. As he levels up, he can transform more of his body to fully transform into an Elemental being.
Geomancer: Ranged Defender/Controller
The Geomancer uses the power of the elements to control the landscape, summoning walls of stone to deflect attacks, or rivers of magma to ward off oncoming opponents.
The Geomancer is mostly a full-on landscape manipulating Defender that controls the terrain to give elemental advantages to his team and disadvantages to his foes. He can alter the landscape to become a sylvan grove, a volcanic wasteland, a storm-swept plane, or the depths of the ocean.
Elemental
Stereotype or not, I'm soooo relieved to hear that Elemental is still in.
Arcane deal energy damage in many powers, some of them elementally-aligned, but most not.
Some have rough equivalents:
Poison - Earth
Fire - Fire
Cold - Wind
Acid - Water
However, Wind, Water, and Earth are not truly present as "Elemental" powers; they don't have their own damage type, because they're not ENERGY types. Wild Sorcerers randomly use one of ANY of the damage types, including the non-elemental kinds, like Psychic, Radiant, Necrotic, Thunder, and Force. There's no reason that Elemental classes would automatically be stepping on Sorcerers' toes, if they truly dealt with elements, rather than energies.
Stereotype or not, I'm soooo relieved to hear that Elemental is still in.
proof of concept
Well; can't argue with that.
That's disappointing. I was hoping that if they axed Ki, they'd HAVE to axe elemental. Nobody yet has managed to provide any sort of reasonable possibility for what elemental classes could do that other power sources and their classes can't already accomplish in spades.
Not entirely true, though I was initially on your side with Elemental not being possible what with Arcane as it is. But a thread in 4ed General about Power Sources got me thinking.
Arcane at it's core is the versatility to redefine the laws of nature. To bend reality to make someone possible that shouldn't be. Thus a sorcerer being able to shoot lightning on a clear sunny day, or a wizard calling an illusion of himself to fool enemies. Yes they do elemental damage attacks but that not their core.
While I have no real definition as to how the Elemental power would work I do believe a source focused on pure elemental powers and attributes could be possible now. Kinda funny really, I managed to convince myself without even trying, haha.
Incarnate: Melee Striker/Defender
The Incarnate has transformed his body into a living elemental cauldron, being able to shift from a being of pure fire, water, air, and earth to deal close range damage to his foes.
The Incarnate is sort of like the Druid meets a Monk - he has 4 different Elemental transformations that allow him to do barefisted damage with elemental effects. As he levels up, he can transform more of his body to fully transform into an Elemental being.
You have a lot of cool idea... but this is just taking the concept of the Genasi and making a class out of it.
I do agree with the idea that Elemental will be power from the Elemental Chaos... with an emphasis on chaos as well as possibly even the Abyss (Maybe a pet based striker who summons Demon, gives a run to the Warlock for favorite emo-class).
Not entirely true, though I was initially on your side with Elemental not being possible what with Arcane as it is. But a thread in 4ed General about Power Sources got me thinking.
Arcane at it's core is the versatility to redefine the laws of nature. To bend reality to make someone possible that shouldn't be. Thus a sorcerer being able to shoot lightning on a clear sunny day, or a wizard calling an illusion of himself to fool enemies. Yes they do elemental damage attacks but that not their core.
While I have no real definition as to how the Elemental power would work I do believe a source focused on pure elemental powers and attributes could be possible now. Kinda funny really, I managed to convince myself without even trying, haha.
I really can't see a class centered on elemental damage types as anything but an arcane ripoff. Not so much because elemental is not viable as a source...as because elemental damage types are not significant enough to warrent being the basis of a class, let alone a power source.
I really can't see a class centered on elemental damage types as anything but an arcane ripoff. Not so much because elemental is not viable as a source...as because elemental damage types are not significant enough to warrent being the basis of a class, let alone a power source.
I think they can work it to become better defined. I'm just saying that there's more of a possibility for it to be probable in my eyes than it use to after really analyzing what I thought the various sources, in this case particularly Arcane were.
You have a lot of cool idea... but this is just taking the concept of the Genasi and making a class out of it.
I have no idea who the Genasi are.
Necromancers should work similiarly given both Necromancers and Elementalists are specialists of what is already published let alone being thought about, much like NINJAS, SAMURAI and other specialists of larger concepts.
The Primordial used the Creationstuff and wild energies of the Elemental Chaos to forge the World, its basic component, even when tempered by the Divine, are still the same as those running rampant in the Elemental Chaos. By channeling more of one type of elemental creationstuff or another, or by studying it closely, one should be able to affect matter on a small scale, reproduce the ever changing nature of the Elemental Chaos.
To an adept of the Elemental Class turning the solid earth to flowing water, or the gentle wind to harsh flames should be easy once you realize they are all the same thing expressed in a different manner.
Melding a lesser elemental into your sword to turn it into an erroding whip and a demon to your cloak into a pair of firey wings that send you flying forward before burning away the fools who dare stand behind you is child's play to one who has studied the nature of the Elemental Chaos.
And once you can turn stone to gold, mending broken bone will seem like a fun distraction more than a test of your ability.
I still think Transmutation is gonna be the recurring theme of the Elemental power source.
Maybe, though I'm uncertain if that will be sufficiently different from Primal's theme of transformation.
Perhaps the Elemental Striker can transmute his arms into fiery wings that allow him to fly and deal fire damage? Perhaps the Elemenmtal Defender can transmute his hands into the shape of an Earth Elemental's fists and use the catch phrase "it's clobberin' time!"
I think this is a more likely scenario for Elemental. It makes the power source visually and mechanically distinct from Arcane and Primordial.
Maybe, though I'm uncertain if that will be sufficiently different from Primal's theme of transformation.
Themes are mostly fluff anyway so as long as you don't just copy and paste power lists and considering how Arcane can already step on just about everybody's toes, at this point a little overlap isn't gonna kill anyone. The way a class goes about doing its thing can make a world of difference.
I have no idea who the Genasi are.
A race introduced in the FR PH.
Here and here.
Humanoid creature filled to the brim with elemental power who can manifest it.
Re: Environmental control - That'd be marvellous. Maybe allow elementalists to treat each world as 'mutable' (as in MotP) and be able to subtly alter it at will.
Drawing upon the font of elemental entropy (The Abyss) to break things down into nothingness, imbuing yourself with elemental stone or flame to crush your enemies with primordial force, molding the terrain like a sculptor with clay, these are all the things I see from the Elemental source.
Chalk me up with the "Transmutation, Arena Morphing, Polymorphing and Elemental Evocation" crowd. That's pretty much what I've been figuring the Elemental classes would be about since I heard of the source- why, for weeks now I've had a theoretical "Shaper" in my head as an Elemental Controller, who can transform the elements by calling upon their instinctive desire to flux. Air becomes earth, creating an impenetrable wall to cordon off the enemy. A roaring bolt of elemental flame spatters and infuses itself into the earth around its target, transmuting it into a blazing caldera of magma that will consume enemies who enter it. A wave of the hand and flesh becomes water, an approaching enemy mob dissolving into elemental brine.
Drawing upon the font of elemental entropy (The Abyss) to break things down into nothingness, imbuing yourself with elemental stone or flame to crush your enemies with primordial force, molding the terrain like a sculptor with clay, these are all the things I see from the Elemental source.
Ooo, that makes it sound even cooler. :D
"What's the new power source that Mike Mearls is dancing around?"
In the RPGnet thread, Mearls made a comment about doing Shadow and Elemental eventually, EVEN IF THEY GET PUSHED BACK. In his next post, he made a "no comment" comment about a new power source. Considering he had no obligation to make any statement about them being pushed back, I think that's a subtle hint that PHB3 may have a new power source. Or at the very least, shadow and elemental won't show up till PHB4, and PHB3 will have more martial/divine/primal classes in it.
And once you can turn stone to gold, mending broken bone will seem like a fun distraction more than a test of your ability.
I agree with most of the rest of your post as an interesting idea; but no offense, bone with the marrow and its complex structure and its composition of so many different elements is much more complicated than gold. You should really be saying, "And once you can mend a broken bone, turning stone to gold will seem like a fun distraction more than a test of your ability."
Haven't we tried to hash out Elemental before? The real question is,
"What's the new power source that Mike Mearls is dancing around?"
In the RPGnet thread, Mearls made a comment about doing Shadow and Elemental eventually, EVEN IF THEY GET PUSHED BACK. In his next post, he made a "no comment" comment about a new power source. Considering he had no obligation to make any statement about them being pushed back, I think that's a subtle hint that PHB3 may have a new power source. Or at the very least, shadow and elemental won't show up till PHB4, and PHB3 will have more martial/divine/primal classes in it.
As long as its not MORE Arcane classes -.-
I agree with most of the rest of your post as an interesting idea; but no offense, bone with the marrow and its complex structure and its composition of so many different elements is much more complicated than gold. You should really be saying, "And once you can mend a broken bone, turning stone to gold will seem like a fun distraction more than a test of your ability."
Haha...yeah I thought about it too, but it made for a more leadery image if I placed the mending bone thing second... maybe I should say
"And once you can mend a broken bone, turning your friend's clothing into unbreakable armor will seem like a fun distraction more than a test of your ability."
As long as its not MORE Arcane classes -.-
I doubt it, not once we have 6 classes. I have trouble seeing 7 classes in AP2.
I can see another class for 2 out of the 3 for Martial/Divine/Primal in PHB3, and the 2010 CS having a class belonging to the 3rd. Then there will be 5 classes for each in MP2, DP2, and PP2, as well as PsiP, to bring us into 2011.
Haven't we tried to hash out Elemental before? The real question is,
"What's the new power source that Mike Mearls is dancing around?"
In the RPGnet thread, Mearls made a comment about doing Shadow and Elemental eventually, EVEN IF THEY GET PUSHED BACK. In his next post, he made a "no comment" comment about a new power source. Considering he had no obligation to make any statement about them being pushed back, I think that's a subtle hint that PHB3 may have a new power source. Or at the very least, shadow and elemental won't show up till PHB4, and PHB3 will have more martial/divine/primal classes in it.
If we understand the basic trend going on here...
Primal= Natural World
Arcane = Feywild
Divine = Astral Sea
Shadow = The Shadowfell
Elemental = The Elemental Chaos
Psionic and Martial = Garnered from training and sheer force of will, based upon physicality and mental strength, respectively...
My assumptions are that one, nearly every plane in the cosmology seems to have a power source representative. On top of that every power source seems to have an opposite, or mirror source as well...
Psionic and Martial mirror eachother.
Divine and Elemental are kinda opposites, or at least that's anyone's best guess.
Arcane and Shadow could very well be the same case, and history (a whole butt load of 3e fluff) has treated this as the case.
Which leaves us with Primal not having an opposite... And The Far Realm not having a power source representative...
My guess here would be the Abberant power source. I could see this thematically be a power based on the warping and manipulation of natural laws. Whereas Arcane manipulates magical energy, Divine channels the power of the gods, Shadow draws upon the The Shadowfell, Elemental conceivably calls upon the Primordials to manipulate the building blocks of the universe, and Primal channels the strength of the natural world; Abberant would actual twist reality itself to it's whim.
That, and going on a hunch with how the designers have said that PH3 is thematically focusing on the invasion of the Far Real into the natural world, I can very well see "Abberant" being a vaible power source... possibly even being the dark horse for PH3.
My guess here would be the Abberant power source. I could see this thematically be a power based on the warping and manipulation of natural laws. Whereas Arcane manipulates magical energy, Divine channels the power of the gods, Shadow draws upon the The Shadowfell, Elemental conceivably calls upon the Primordials to manipulate the building blocks of the universe, and Primal channels the strength of the natural world; Abberant would actual twist reality itself to it's whim.
That, and going on a hunch with how the designers have said that PH3 is thematically focusing on the invasion of the Far Real into the natural world, I can very well see "Abberant" being a vaible power source... possibly even being the dark horse for PH3.
I like this idea.
I think Elemental could do pretty well for a real, honest-to-goodness summoner. Yeah, the invoker and wizard have a few summons, but that's not enough for me.
Yes, that's what I want. A Final Fantasy-style summoner. Best idea ever. It would MAKE the Elemental Source for me.
If we understand the basic trend going on here...
Primal= Natural World
Arcane = Feywild
Divine = Astral Sea
Shadow = The Shadowfell
Elemental = The Elemental Chaos
Psionic and Martial = Garnered from training and sheer force of will, based upon physicality and mental strength, respectively...
My assumptions are that one, nearly every plane in the cosmology seems to have a power source representative. On top of that every power source seems to have an opposite, or mirror source as well...
Psionic and Martial mirror eachother.
Divine and Elemental are kinda opposites, or at least that's anyone's best guess.
Arcane and Shadow could very well be the same case, and history (a whole butt load of 3e fluff) has treated this as the case.
Which leaves us with Primal not having an opposite... And The Far Realm not having a power source representative...
My guess here would be the Abberant power source. I could see this thematically be a power based on the warping and manipulation of natural laws. Whereas Arcane manipulates magical energy, Divine channels the power of the gods, Shadow draws upon the The Shadowfell, Elemental conceivably calls upon the Primordials to manipulate the building blocks of the universe, and Primal channels the strength of the natural world; Abberant would actual twist reality itself to it's whim.
That, and going on a hunch with how the designers have said that PH3 is thematically focusing on the invasion of the Far Real into the natural world, I can very well see "Abberant" being a vaible power source... possibly even being the dark horse for PH3.
So Primal (our natural world)'s opposite would be Abberant (alien natural worlds) - I could see that working out.
What I couldn't see is Heroic player classes with Abberant as a Power Source. You'd have the Chaos Humans from Warhammer x 4.
well dont go for that human alchemy, its taboo.
anyway, the quote was not reassuring
And a class specializing in a single element is a bad idea. Maybe good for a PP, but not for the concept of an entire class.
To my mind, an Elemental Power source will likely be reflective of the Elemental Chaos. It seems very unlikely that you would have a single element tied to each Role because such a set up reprisents a static ordered system. We would be more likely see some kind of Flux mechanic tied to it, where your elemental aspects change dependant on what powers you use. something more reprisentative of the Chaos from which the elemental powers originate from. Blended Elemental effects are probably more likely than Single Element effects.
In this case, we might have a "dark side" of Psionics and a "light side". There wouldn't be any mechanical division between the two, but you'd have classes like, say, the Monk, which represents the "light side" of ordered discipline and enlightening meditations that unlock their psionic potential.
And then you have the wilders who have raging psychosees in their heads that they desperately want to share with the world through psionic mind storms. (Or, for the more heroic, raging madness inside their heads that they desperately try to keep bottled up as long as possible and only unleash on those deserving of punishment)
Yes, that's what I want. A Final Fantasy-style summoner. Best idea ever. It would MAKE the Elemental Source for me.
The biggest obstacle for a pure summoner is the at-wills and encounters. I like the Summoning keyword, but it's too much to give to an encounter power or an at-will. And they certainly won't break the powers-by-level uniformity.
If we understand the basic trend going on here...
Primal= Natural World
Arcane = Feywild
Divine = Astral Sea
Shadow = The Shadowfell
Elemental = The Elemental Chaos
Psionic and Martial = Garnered from training and sheer force of will, based upon physicality and mental strength, respectively...
Except by that logic, sorcerers would be elemental. And wizard would be... would be... I have no idea...
I hope they wouldn't do Shadow, Elemental, or any of those other half-baked ideas. Shadow is more of a theme, and doesn't leave enough room for a full range of classes; it'd be pretty contrived. As for Elemental, at this point, they can't do it, because it would inherently leave out Sorcerer, which is a HUGE discrepancy.
After all, if it weren't for Eberron...D&D would still suck.
I still don't like the elemental source...but I'd be interested in seeing an "aberrant" (probably with a different name) power source. I really can't think of any more justification for it than elemental, but at least IT sounds INTERESTING...unlike elemental, which has not yet by any suggestion proven to be anything but an arcane ripoff. But, I do agree with some that that's mostly because Arcane just blankets too many things.
While I wouldn't want to see Technology as a full Power Source I could see it being open to all classes. So instead of a full Power Source instead stuff like... Multi-Class Only Classes, Hybrid Only Classes, Feat Trees, Paragon Paths, "Technology Styles" (like Fighting Styles), etc.
Psionics might be tied to the Far Realm in some way. Psionics is kind of a key ability for certain popular abberant monsters, and it's almost part and parcel for their shtick. Also, the Far Realm is closely tied to ideas of madness and insanity, which could be used as fuel for psionic powers.
In this case, we might have a "dark side" of Psionics and a "light side". There wouldn't be any mechanical division between the two, but you'd have classes like, say, the Monk, which represents the "light side" of ordered discipline and enlightening meditations that unlock their psionic potential.
And then you have the wilders who have raging psychosees in their heads that they desperately want to share with the world through psionic mind storms. (Or, for the more heroic, raging madness inside their heads that they desperately try to keep bottled up as long as possible and only unleash on those deserving of punishment)
Don't forget, though, that the same can be said of arcane magic and abberations too. I don't think I need to remind you of The Beholder. Yeah, psionics are prevalent amongst abberations, but I don't really see it being synonymous...
And honestly, I don't think we'll see psionics represented with a "light side" or a "dark side". That reeks waaaaay too much of Star Wars Jedi mythos, and I personally feel would be a very poor desicion on WoTC part.
Aside from that, I really don't see Psionics being tied to the Far Realm. Psionics stem from mastery of the mind and force of will. They're not derived from any form of planar energy or such...
Primal= Natural World
Arcane = Feywild
Divine = Astral Sea
Shadow = The Shadowfell
Elemental = The Elemental Chaos
Psionic and Martial = Garnered from training and sheer force of will, based upon physicality and mental strength, respectively...
Trying to tie all the power sources to plains has been tried before, and never fully works.
Most notably Arcane doesn't really tie to any one plain. There really isn't anything tying it to the fey wild. Sorcerers are more closely connected to the elemental chaos. Warlocks can be fey oriented, but can be just as equally related to devils or aberrants. Wizards, Swordmages, Artificers; none of those classes seem particular aligned with any plain.
Arcane is, if anything, a universal force. If it all springs from any one source than it would have to be some kind of nexus were all the plains overlap.
Warlock and Sorcerer throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing and make the Arcane source a catch all power source that's more special than the other because it can step on everybody's toe and when some other source tries to do its own thing its suddenly an arcane rip-off.
I say Arcane is the rip-off source!!
DOWN WITH ARCANE RIPPING OFF OTHER SOURCES!
For elemental we have the elements themselves, efreet, djinn, and the Abyss. Also they've gotten away from the Greek Alchemy definition of elements. Elements now represent concepts that are usually tied to damage types: cold, thunder, lightning, fire, acid (the chromatc dragon breath attacks) as well as storms, magma, earth, water, and the other basic inorganic materials that make up the world.
For elemental classes we could have a demon summoner/binder, an elemental evoker/shaper, a transforming elementalist (who can make themselves into elementals or at least partially for an attack). Like martial it may not have a fit for ever role but I think they could come up with at least 4 classes for it.
As others have stated you can't tie the power sources into planes, not exactly anyway. Sure the themes of certain power sources mesh with certain planes but only because of the plane sharing a theme with that power source.
Martial = Training and skills to do things, usually with tools (ranger, rogue, fighter with weapons, warlord more with tactics and strategy)
Divine = Channelling the power of the gods (so loosely tied with the Astral Sea but more with the Divine Domains)
Arcane = Shaping and manipulating the magical energies in the world (wizards through spells and training, swordmage by blending sword and spell, bard through song and word, warlock by pacts with sources of the magic itself from various planes, and sorcerors through some depseated connection with the mystic energies)
Primal = Channelling the power of the World's spirits of nature (which as talked about in Celestian Order are older than the Dawn War and as powerful as the Gods and Pirmordials if not more so)
Psionic = Developing ones own internal abilities to the point one can manifest them in their body or the world around them (monk training, a seer's gift of foresight, a visionaries ability to see through the eyes of others far away, a telepaths ability to communicate mind-to-mind and possibly without the barrier of spoken languages)
Shadow = Pulling on the energies of darkness and death (thematically tied to Shadowfell for that reason)
Elemental = Drawing on the raw elements that make up the world or the destructive energies of the Abyss
Don't forget, though, that the same can be said of arcane magic and abberations too. I don't think I need to remind you of The Beholder. Yeah, psionics are prevalent amongst abberations, but I don't really see it being synonymous...
And honestly, I don't think we'll see psionics represented with a "light side" or a "dark side". That reeks waaaaay too much of Star Wars Jedi mythos, and I personally feel would be a very poor desicion on WoTC part.
Aside from that, I really don't see Psionics being tied to the Far Realm. Psionics stem from mastery of the mind and force of will. They're not derived from any form of planar energy or such...
In Eberron, it's not so much that Psionics draws on planar energy, but that maybe the Planes are formed from universal truths and reflect parts of the World. The Madness of Xoriat may just be a reflection of insanity already present on Eberron.
I didn't realize my unintented reference to Star Wars, but what I was refering to with light/dark, is that I've seen psionic potential come from two different sources in DnD: Enlightenment, and Insanity. For example, Wilders didn't really have a "mastery of mind and force of will", they were brimmig with overflowing psionic energy. They were sort of like psion barbarians, flying into euphoric releases of raw power until they exhausted themselves.
Also, LuciferNietzsche, Dal Quor is not the only plane that is psionic themed in Eberron. Dal Quor is the plane of Dreams and Xoriat is the plane of Madness, both are entirely mental aspects of reality. Dal Quor is just the bigger spotlight on psionics because the bigbads from that realm, the Dreaming Dark, the Quori, the Inspired, are all psionic.
Xoriat has other stuff going on for it. Fleshcraft, body horror, etc. But insanity-themed psionics are also a part of it.
Imho, the Elemental power source will be all about binding elementals, either as servants, or to items.
A summoner class's at-wills would be summons, with each belonging to a defferent element. The encounters/dailies would then deal the damage type assosiated with your active elemental (either making the elemental do an attack, or drawing energy from it to attack yourself).
Arcane Magic is learned magic. It's artificial. Sorcerers have an excess of power, which makes it easier for them to cast spells, but they still learn them - they're essentially self taught.
Great, Elemental. Four classes based around stereotypical application of the elements. Earth Defender, Fire Striker, Water Leader, Air Controller. Yay for originality. Surely none of those could be achieved via dual classing a Sorcerer with a Warden, Ranger, Cleric, or Wizard. Or Four stiker classes based soley around one ability - moving a certain kind of matter around. "Look! I'm moving around slightly more water thanks to my feat!" Huzzah. Avatar the Last Airbender in DnD.
Originality? What's that?
Seriously, the whole point of classes is that they represent archetypes. It's why they exist--to give players classical archetypes around which to build their characters. The less original they are, the more they fulfill that function. The originality comes with the various ways they have to customize their characters with feats, multiclassing, power selection, etc.
I wouldn't be at all bothered if each of the elemental classes were based on a single element, as it would at least give elemental classes strong themes which are distinct from the arcane classes, which seems to be the most common complaint. That said, as others have pointed out, it's not at all clear what the classes will be like--it could be a lot more like the wu jen and shugenja than each one based on a single element.
We had a mini or a monster or both that was a Drow Demonbinder. And it was not, if I'm correct, the one and only reference to Demonbinders. It's CLEARY an elemental class. As you can see, NOTHING to do with Earth, Fire, Wind and Water.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they will eventually change the power source name from Elemental to Chaotic or Abyssal or Subplanar or something like that even if none is accurate.
They messed up calling the nature source Primal: the ideal thing would have been to call Elemental "Primordial", but now they can't since it would be too similar to Primal. Primal should have been Spirit or simply Natural or something like that.
P.S.: It's obvious that elements in the more common sense are dominion of the Arcane, so really, why would they repeat everything in the Elemental power source? Do you think that just because they're selling well till this point they can make stupid things to that point? Yes Primal has some good elemental feeling too, but with a different theme, plus, this is another reason because of which they can't repeat anymore. The Sorcerer is already a 100% "elemental" class, do you think they look forward to make another 4 sorcerer-copycat classes? No.
We had a mini or a monster or both that was a Drow Demonbinder. And it was not, if I'm correct, the one and only reference to Demonbinders.
The chick with six arms? She's a monster; I have never seen a monster use the name of a PC class, not seeing it happen.
They messed up calling the nature source Primal: the ideal thing would have been to call Elemental "Primordial", but now they can't since it would be too similar to Primal. Primal should have been Spirit or simply Natural or something like that.
I think it has more to do with a Primordial being a type of super being; It would be like calling Divine classes "God classes"
But all in all, I think you're right about Demons and Primordials being a big part of the power source.
The chick with six arms? She's a monster; I have never seen a monster use the name of a PC class, not seeing it happen.
What if she has six arms BECAUSE she's a Demonbinder!!
Imagine a Striker version of the Warden using 'Binding of the ____ Demon' polymorph dailies!
What if she has six arms BECAUSE she's a Demonbinder!!
Oh there's no doubt in my mind that's the case, but could you imagine how much of a s***storm a class called Demonbinder would it cause, D&D has a bad enough rap with that stuff as is.
We might see a return of 'The Binder' as a elemental class who can bind demons, efreets and other baddies to items, as a remake of the old Totemist class, that would be cool.
Oh there's no doubt in my mind that's the case, but could you imagine how much of a s***storm a class called Demonbinder would it cause, D&D has a bad enough rap with that stuff as is.
That's so 1980's D&D can do anything now and there wouldn't be a controversy. There's even the Avenger class which vaguely resembles an ancient and secretive Islamic order from which the word Assassin was derived from, and no one out of the Ignorant Crowd going on about any controversy about "D&D encourages Terrorism".
Oh there's no doubt in my mind that's the case, but could you imagine how much of a s***storm a class called Demonbinder would it cause, D&D has a bad enough rap with that stuff as is.
We might see a return of 'The Binder' as a elemental class who can bind demons, efreets and other baddies to items, as a remake of the old Totemist class, that would be cool.
Well, of course the Demonbinder could very well be one of the possible builds of a more generic Binder, but you can't deny the monster had a very clear class-using feel to it. After all we're talking about civilized, PC-enabled, race. No drow "monster" out there is built in a way you couldn't replicate with classes.
To me, it was an indirect preview. The fact they preview future material in these ways proved true with that strange NPC of an organization prsented in article. That guy allowed me and another fellow to reverse-engineer the Deva race months before it came out (and with ONE HUNDRED % accuracy). Some people were saying "you can't do that: it's an NPC, it doesn't use PC rules." Yeah man, doesn't use those rules, but that doesn't exclude they CAN represent them if designed with that *purpose* in mind...
That's so 1980's D&D can do anything now and there wouldn't be a controversy. There's even the Avenger class which vaguely resembles an ancient and secretive Islamic order from which the word Assassin was derived from, and no one out of the Ignorant Crowd going on about any controversy about "D&D encourages Terrorism".
There is still very much controversy, right now there are children who will never know the joy of D&D because of it.
And no one out of the "Ignorant Crowd" is capable of reading that much into the Avenger, so let's keep that on the down low.
We might see a return of 'The Binder' as a elemental class who can bind demons, efreets and other baddies to items, as a remake of the old Totemist class, that would be cool.
Maybe, but Arcane seems to already be eating in to that territory. Notably with paragon paths like Demonskin Adept, Primordial Channeler, and Rimtongue Caller. They aren't exactly the same, but they put the concept well within Arcane's reach.
Maybe but Arcane seems to already be eating in to that territory. Notably with paragon paths like Demonskin Adept, Primordial Channeler, and Rimtongue Caller. They aren't exactly the same, but they put the concept well within Arcane's reach.
DARN YOU ARCANE!!!!!Darn you to the nine hells you obseleting power source and your expensionist tendancies!!
Maybe but Arcane seems to already be eating in to that territory. Notably with paragon paths like Demonskin Adept, Primordial Channeler, and Rimtongue Caller. They aren't exactly the same, but they put the concept well within Arcane's reach.
All thing are within Arcane's reach; that's what Arcane does, it taps into all things within the multiverse. Many of the Walock PP are almost Divine in nature, such as God Fragment.
All thing are within Arcane's reach; that's what Arcane does, it taps into all things within the multiverse. Many of the Walock PP are almost Divine in nature, such as God Fragment.
True enough. Though at least God Fragment is distinct from typical divine fair by harnessing the power of dead gods. However, the elemental-like paragon paths don't seem very distinct at all from much of the hypotheticals being discussed for the potential elemental power source.
Then again, I have always liked the five element system, (e.g. the Chinese Wu Xing) seen in many oriental traditions. Most of these traditions associate more than just elements, each element is also associated with one of five cardinal directions, colors, planets, etcetera. The other thing about this system is that the elements form a cycle, with some elements supporting the effects of another element and others hindering the effect; but unlike the four element system there are no direct opposites which I think allows more useful flow. This I think will be the basis of the Wu Jen.
Maybe, but Arcane seems to already be eating in to that territory. Notably with paragon paths like Demonskin Adept, Primordial Channeler, and Rimtongue Caller. They aren't exactly the same, but they put the concept well within Arcane's reach.
This I actually find a good sign that the Binder will be an elemental class. Look at the Demonskin adept. The 3.5 version summoned a demon, and used it to replace his skin. In 4.e he takes powers from the skins of demons he carries around with him.
If we understand the basic trend going on here...
Primal= Natural World
Arcane = Feywild
Divine = Astral Sea
Shadow = The Shadowfell
Elemental = The Elemental Chaos
Psionic and Martial = Garnered from training and sheer force of will, based upon physicality and mental strength, respectively...
My assumptions are that one, nearly every plane in the cosmology seems to have a power source representative. On top of that every power source seems to have an opposite, or mirror source as well...
Psionic and Martial mirror eachother.
Divine and Elemental are kinda opposites, or at least that's anyone's best guess.
Arcane and Shadow could very well be the same case, and history (a whole butt load of 3e fluff) has treated this as the case.
Which leaves us with Primal not having an opposite... And The Far Realm not having a power source representative...
My guess here would be the Abberant power source. I could see this thematically be a power based on the warping and manipulation of natural laws. Whereas Arcane manipulates magical energy, Divine channels the power of the gods, Shadow draws upon the The Shadowfell, Elemental conceivably calls upon the Primordials to manipulate the building blocks of the universe, and Primal channels the strength of the natural world; Abberant would actual twist reality itself to it's whim.
That, and going on a hunch with how the designers have said that PH3 is thematically focusing on the invasion of the Far Real into the natural world, I can very well see "Abberant" being a vaible power source... possibly even being the dark horse for PH3.
This all seems very reasonable to me.
Divine and Elemental are mirrors. The Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos as Above and Below, and Primordials vs. Immortals, are established 4e canon fluff. As such, I don't think that there is any way that they will kill it. Also, Elemental power source =/= elemental damage powers. It's the source, not the target. The same way that Psionic power source =/= psychic damage powers.
Arcane and Shadow being mirrors also works quite well, with Arcane being tied to the Feywild and Shadow being tied to the Shadowfell.
Martial/Psionic is an interesting interpretation of them being two sides of the same coin. Makes sense.
The Primal/Aberrant mirror theory is a good one. I can definitely see that working.
I would love them forever if they gave us a suite of classes that drew power straight from the Far Realm. :D
Like a Star Pact Warlock for every role? >.>
Like a Star Pact Warlock for every role? >.>
Something like that. But completely different.
I would love them forever if they gave us a suite of classes that drew power straight from the Far Realm. :D
*Nods* Same here, I can picture their powers all being based off mutated either something physically or reality. So you can mutate yourself, the environment, others, etc and/or warp reality.
I could see lots of side damage/effect being psychic and fear as the enemies try to cope with the weird mutations and warping of reality they are seeing before them.
I mentioned as much above with the idea of a "Aberrant" Power Source.
*Nods* Same here, I can picture their powers all being based off mutated either something physically or reality. So you can mutate yourself, the environment, others, etc and/or warp reality.
I could see lots of side damage/effect being psychic and fear as the enemies try to cope with the weird mutations and warping of reality they are seeing before them.
I mentioned as much above with the idea of a "Aberrant" Power Source.
I think working in the effects of channeling a power source such as that would be fun too. Such as "how crazy do you have to be to use the Far Realm as a source of power?".
Something like that. But completely different.
Don't you mean something almost, but not quite, entirely unlike the star pact warlock?
Their class WU JEN
I think that the elemental power source will be very "pick an element and STICK TO IT" Walls and stuff for the earth with very earth movey type powers. Fire with control and variant flames. Water with summoning and draining of interal fluids (not summoning of interal fluids). WInd with push pull slide and cutting. MEtal (if its there) as creating things as temporary weapons.
Their class WU JEN
Perhaps for one class, but that shouldn't be the overarching approch to the powersource. The elemental chaos itself doesn't stick to one element, why should you? Rivers of fire, stone spires floating in the sky, and endless seas of water that flow uphill- This is where your power is drawn.
I think that the elemental power source will be very "pick an element and STICK TO IT" Walls and stuff for the earth with very earth movey type powers. Fire with control and variant flames. Water with summoning and draining of interal fluids (not summoning of interal fluids). WInd with push pull slide and cutting. MEtal (if its there) as creating things as temporary weapons.
Their class WU JEN
If I was going to base the Wu Jen off this idea, I would give the character one elemental alignment at creation and then have his elemental focus switch after each extended rest and reasonable other times. Some time he would get his personal element and gain some benefit, sometime he would get an opposition element and be somewhat weakened in effect, but most of the time he would just be average with the powers of his elemental focus for the day.
That said while I like the idea of a character having a personal element, and maybe gaining others as he progresses, I would not want to limit him to one elemental focus for his powers whether merely for the day or for all time.
Elemental: As an elemental class, you tap into the elemental chaos and the primordials within to fuel your abilities. You are not a scrabbling servant, as those who obey the immortals, but a loyal retainer of those ancient creatures that asked for loyalty in obedience's stead. While you can tap into the many shifting powers of the chaos, you can also calm them and control them, for however briefly, as payment for your loyalty.
I'd be keen on a leader that could 'enchant' his allies with the elementals. You imbue the striker with a fire archon's heat or the defender with an earth elemental's (presumed) reach. You could allow the controller to collapse into a stream of water that slides him to an ally's side and hasten yourself on the wind of a djinn.
Unless you're playing a completly mad bad guy or some extra planar beings, pleading loyalty to a Primordial is like wishing for your own destruction.
Its going to be possible fluff wise if you want to be a mad bad guy but I doubt it will be the default fluff.
Considering the elemental power source drawing of the elemental chaos, this is a 'description' I've thrown together, as a concept.
Elemental: As an elemental class, you tap into the elemental chaos and the primordials within to fuel your abilities. You are not a scrabbling servant, as those who obey the immortals, but a loyal retainer of those ancient creatures that asked for loyalty in obedience's stead. While you can tap into the many shifting powers of the chaos, you can also calm them and control them, for however briefly, as payment for your loyalty.
I'd be keen on a leader that could 'enchant' his allies with the elementals. You imbue the striker with a fire archon's heat or the defender with an earth elemental's (presumed) reach. You could allow the controller to collapse into a stream of water that slides him to an ally's side and hasten yourself on the wind of a djinn.
That's all fine and dandy...except that the Primordials want to return the World to Chaos.
Unless you're playing a completly mad bad guy or some extra planar beings, pleading loyalty to a Primordial is like wishing for your own destruction.
Its going to be possible fluff wise if you want to be a mad bad guy but I doubt it will be the default fluff.
I think it's a reasonable description, but I don't know what it really does to allow for unique classes. I just don't think Elemental as a power source brings anything worthwhile and unique to the game. Then again, I don't think anything does because of how far Arcane reaches...it just steps on EVERYBODY'S toes. But in the interests of supporting an intriguing idea...perhaps it would be good to change it from pledged loyalty to instead stolen power? Perhaps a primordial who doesn't want chaos alone to reign completely gave the races of the world the gift of elemental power, and its knowledge has been passed on since the birth of mortal consciousness. Much like the story of Prometheus' flame. Then it wouldn't be necessary to be an insane evil person to support the primordials in general.
There was another thread elsewhere (I forget the title or I'd link it) that discussed the possibility of some unaligned and even a few good primordials. They should be rare, sure, but the idea isn't too far-fetched, and would be extremely fun and interesting. Especially if some of them escaped imprisonment by supressing their power and posing as mortals. They might be something like the Ascended in Stargate (yeah, yeah, gimmie a break), beings of immense power that can almost never USE their power for fear of reprisal from the Gods. After all...those few primordials in exile would be quite outnumbered by the Gods.
Making elemental characters control elementals would make a nice counter against serving the divine. A little bit "Better to rule in hell..."
Let's pretend there's a class called the Binder. Each extended rest he picks a damage type per tier.
Until his next extended rest all his powers deal these damage types, with the amount and riders remaining constant.
Then we have his best friend, the Sha'ir. Each of his at-wills summon an elemental associated with a damage type, and the limitation that he can only have one elemental active at a time.
His encounter and daily abilities work like the Binder, but the damage type dealt is defined by the active elemental instead of a class feature.