Or as everyone specultates something else such as DS, DL or otherwise?
:P
Dragonlance and Dark Sun seem to have the biggest fan-followings, and are original settings and not 'D&D in a foreign country' like al-Qadim or Kara-Tur were (I don't know what Zakara is, so have no idea how that affects my argument).
Somehow, I'm not imagining an Arabic themed game world going over too hot these days.
Which is a shame, because there's a lot of Arabian Nights stuff to work with, as well as a possible elemental-themed setting (for PHB 4?) based on the djinn and efrit.
Somehow, I'm not imagining an Arabic themed game world going over too hot these days.
Dragonlance and Dark Sun seem to have the biggest fan-followings, and are original settings and not 'D&D in a foreign country' like al-Qadim or Kara-Tur were (I don't know what Zakara is, so have no idea how that affects my argument).
Zakhara is the part of the forgotten realms world where Al Qadim is set (just as Kara Tur is whee Oriental Adventures was set - also part of forgotten realms)
Zakhara is the part of the forgotten realms world where Al Qadim is set (just as Kara Tur is whee Oriental Adventures was set - also part of forgotten realms)
ah, right, that dark time when everything was shoved into FR.
ah, right, that dark time when everything was shoved into FR.
Yep, I still remember talk back in the dark old days, when TSR was in its final death throes, that Athas (Dark Sun) was some where on Toril as well.. I am very happy they didn't follow through with that one..
Yep, I still remember talk back in the dark old days, when TSR was in its final death throes, that Athas (Dark Sun) was some where on Toril as well.. I am very happy they didn't follow through with that one..
As am I. Yet as a FR fan, I find myself questioning the use of Returned Abeir. Might trash (and by this I mean wreck and not toss out) that so that I can implement DS elements (if indeed Dark Sun is ever released as a 4E setting.
Somehow, I'm not imagining an Arabic themed game world going over too hot these days
*snort* Hasn't stopped me. Of course, I'm not relying on my setting being sellable in a country where half the population are terrified that swarthy turban-clad men are going to murder them in their beds.
Maybe OP is refering to the "hint" that the next setting will have an "A" in the name?
Does that hint actually exclude ANY possibility? I once read that it excludes Birthright, but not really -- that setting takes place on a world called CeriliA.
Does that hint actually exclude ANY possibility? I once read that it excludes Birthright, but not really -- that setting takes place on a world called CeriliA.
Well, is the 'A' supposed to be in the setting name or the world name? If it's the world name, then it rules out Krynn but not Athas.
that said, I'd foresee them getting soft cover books. but the magic 8 ball said" on strike".
************
Please return discussion to the topic of the thread, or it may need to be closed.
No it ain't D&D but with enough work you could make it so.
There isn't nearly as much information on either as there is of the European-themed part of the Forgotten Realms world and a lot of the things would be identical to Forgotten Realms. It wouldn't be so hard then to cut right to the core and release a book that covers two other continents of the world where other cultural norms rule.
I say that, though, having made fun of Al-Qadim on my blog, and I stand by that ridicule. Al-Qadim in its 2nd Edition form isn't a campaign setting as we know it; it's just a flavour lightly pasted over the ruleset.
If you wanted a 4E Al-Qadim the very first thing to do is to rip it out of the Forgotten Realms. Make it a full-fledged world with a compelling mythology and politics and mysteries and a sense that the whole setting is at some kind of crossroads of history.
Next you need to get rid of the camels, magic carpets and genies stigma. Disney has appropriated the lot of that into little-children territory, and while certainly you can re-appropriate it and make it either terrifying or thrilling, doing so is going to define your setting. The key is to find the essential element of what's exciting about the Arabian Nights and exploit it without going near the cliches.
It can be done; but do I think it will be? No, not really.
If you wanted a 4E Al-Qadim the very first thing to do is to rip it out of the Forgotten Realms. Make it a full-fledged world with a compelling mythology and politics and mysteries and a sense that the whole setting is at some kind of crossroads of history.
Here, I agree with you completely. Zakhara should be--and should always have been--its own setting. And it's more than robust enough to function that way.
Next you need to get rid of the camels, magic carpets and genies stigma. Disney has appropriated the lot of that into little-children territory, and while certainly you can re-appropriate it and make it either terrifying or thrilling, doing so is going to define your setting. The key is to find the essential element of what's exciting about the Arabian Nights and exploit it without going near the cliches.
And here, I couldn't disagree more strongly. It doesn't matter what Disney's done; it matters what the setting does.
"Camels, magic carpets, and genies" are some of the basic tropes of an Arabian setting. The former is inextricably bound up in the physical environment, and the latter two are absolute staples of Persian/Arabic mythology and fairy tale. Taking them out of an Arabian setting would be like trying to do a Greek mythic setting without, say, the gods of Olympus. There's no point.
It can be done, and it can be done well. And the trick do making it work is the same trick to making any setting work: Don't worry about what other people have done with the material, and instead just stick to the core themes, and write said material to the best of the team's ability.
It's incredibly silly to have a desert planet or an ice planet or a forest planet... no diversity of life would ever develop in such a place, much less the diversity that fantasy requires.
There just isn't a reason at all that you can't have continents on a planet that have diverse cultures inspired by different cultures on our planet. You sail across the sea, and suddenly you find a land where everything is different. That sot of adventure is completely lacking in D&D right now. Instead-- you jump through a portal and find alien races who STILL have the same Eurocentric culture.
It'd be so much more interesting that even if your base area was Anglo-Saxon-Frank-Celtic mix if you sail across the sea you could wind up in a place like early feudal China with sorcerery and a real monkey king and dragon-emporer or African savanah or Babylon exaggerated like in 300 or Egypt ruled by the undead or even in a vast jungle with a Mayan-inspired culture set in a prehistoric landscape or any other number of things.
A planet like that would offer much more variety in adventures than that which we have currently.
Next you need to get rid of the camels, magic carpets and genies stigma. Disney has appropriated the lot of that into little-children territory, and while certainly you can re-appropriate it and make it either terrifying or thrilling, doing so is going to define your setting. The key is to find the essential element of what's exciting about the Arabian Nights and exploit it without going near the cliches.
They're tropes, not clichés.
It can be done, and it can be done well. And the trick do making it work is the same trick to making any setting work: Don't worry about what other people have done with the material, and instead just stick to the core themes, and write said material to the best of the team's ability.
You´re absolutely right. Al Qadim didn´t have that long and complex continuity that it couldn´t be reset.
Al Qadim is my FAVORITE setting of the old "TSR Classics", but I´m not holding my breath for it as the next setting. I´ll be pleased enough if Darksun shows up as the 2010 book.
Cheers!
They're tropes, not clichés.
No, they're tropes AND (in this case) cliches.
It's not the trope I have trouble with. It's the cliche. Doing them isn't problematic in and of itself. Doing them without thought, because they're expected, and bringing with them the baggage that they've accrued - that's where the problem is.
300 is a great example of doing a Greek mythic setting without the gods of Olympus. Prince of Persia is a great example of doing Arabian Nights without magic carpets, camels or genies.
Cutting away what's expected is the surest way of identifying what's exciting about the idea to begin with. In the case of the Arabian Nights your core elements are a strict class system and an inherently hostile natural environment. It's about contrasts of civilization with barbarism, tradition with merit, and opulence with poverty. It's about having romance because that's all you have left to you. It's about being the plaything of forces infinitely vaster than yourself but meeting it with stoicism, gusto and humour. It's about a world where the unknown doesn't lie on a distant horizon but starts the moment you step out of your door, a world where even the largest evils are intimate and personal, and where fortune and happiness are within the reach of anyone with the wits and courage to seize them.
They're all things that D&D does really well, and they're none of them dependent upon the ideas that make Arabian settings feel so played out.
I mean, sure, ultimately there's going to be camels, and magic carpets, and genies, but the key to a fresh, exciting Al-Qadim that's going to grab hold of a new generation of gamers and make them want to play D&D is to show that telling thrilling stories in an Arabian setting doesn't require you to endlessly retell Aladdin and Sinbad, or even go anywhere near them.
Sidenote: Just look at every time that vampires have been successfully relaunched into the public consciousness, ever. Every last time it's been about throwing away the cliches and getting a good grip on the core attraction.
300 is a great example of doing a Greek mythic setting without the gods of Olympus.
Eh, while 300 is certainly set in Greece, and has some mythic overtones, it wouldn't work as a full-fledged Mythic Greece campaign setting. It's possible to do individual stories that avoid the tropes, but that's not the same as doing a campaign setting which is intended to let other people tell the stories they want to tell. For many people--I'd even argue that it's the majority, though I certainly agree it's not everyone--it's partly the tropes of a specific setting that draw them to said setting.
In the case of the Arabian Nights your core elements are...
The problem is, while everything you named is indeed part of Arabian Nights, none of it is specific to Arabian Nights. Every single element you mentioned can be found in lots of other fantasy and/or mythic settings--often in that precise same combination.
Yes, those are at the core of Al-Qadim, or any Arabian Setting, but they are not, in and of themselves, sufficient to convey said settings. For that, you need the details. And that includes the tropes, and even, in some cases, the cliches.
Lots of people want to play with the concept of genies (just for example). They want to play with the notion of twisted wishes, or bound power, or the religious/mythic notions of the genies as a level of immortal between humans and angels. And that's absolutely a part of Arabian settings, and a major draw to them.
Sidenote: Just look at every time that vampires have been successfully relaunched into the public consciousness, ever. Every last time it's been about throwing away the cliches and getting a good grip on the core attraction.
Really? Other than Twilight--which, frankly, has grabbed success for reasons that have nothing to do with vampires, and everything to do with playing to the emotions and hormones of teenage girls--I can't think of any popular revisit of vampires that doesn't keep some of the tropes.
The fact is, it's the details as much as the core meta-themes that draw people to certain concepts, be they vampires, Arabian Nights, Greek myth, or what have you. Not every interpretation needs to use every trope--and arguably, no interpretation should use every trope--but to be both successful and faithful to the material, at least some of said tropes must be present.
Or, to put it more briefly, certain concepts have been around and popular for as long as they have because they work. They resonate with people. And throwing them out because they're tropes, or because Disney may have piddled on them, is no wiser than slavishly adhering to them without trying anything new. It requires a combination and a careful balance of both.
I've never understood why in fantasy people want to see entire PLANETS that have only 1 (human) culture and only a single landscape type for the entire planet.
I, for one, don't mind multiple settings on the same planet, but I would not want a half thought-out, totally different setting playing second fiddle to the main European setting. I want each setting to be treated as its own with good thought; the DM can decide how or if they share a world. Or...
Another reason might be that there is a certain aesthetic (or style/feel) disconnect if one jumps too quickly between 2 areas with very different cultures. To avoid this, one focuses on an aesthetic that is culture-independent; for example, how Pirates of the Caribbean has a real seedy, grimy, and brine-crusted aesthetic regardless of whether they were in Singapore, the Carib lands, the Swamp, or the English colonies. Settings where the culture is hybridized, a sort of international blending of cultures, do something like this too (Firefly, Cowboy Bebop, maybe Eberron).
There's a lot of leeway and gradation in cultures (real or otherwise). Visiting Europe or China alone, you can see the culture vary from place to place, despite each often being grouped as one. "One" culture has a big sandbox, too.
Actually, that'd be MystArA :P
Ah yes, forgive me, Do you realize how long it's been since I've played or read anything on that particular setting.
God I still remember reading my big brothers D&D books.
Poor Cleric ;_;
"What's your class?"
"Elf."
"I know you are an elf, but what's your class?"
"I don't know... Middle class I guess? Can I be a prince?"
"No, I mean... are you a fighter or a magic user or a cleric?"
"No. I'm an ELF."
Of course, it was better than 1st or 2nd where if you decided you were an Elf, you got a ridiculous amount of free abilities to the point that you were effective a level or two above the rest of the characters and you got to advance to higher levels in more classes than anything else but a human.
Those first editions were so horrifyingly badly designed it really was an absolute crime... and some maniacs were up in arms about switching to 3rd edition even after 2nd had been left for dead for about 5 years!
Basic D&D was so much fun.
"What's your class?"
"Elf."
"I know you are an elf, but what's your class?"
"I don't know... Middle class I guess? Can I be a prince?"
"No, I mean... are you a fighter or a magic user or a cleric?"
"No. I'm an ELF."
Of course, it was better than 1st or 2nd where if you decided you were an Elf, you got a ridiculous amount of free abilities to the point that you were effective a level or two above the rest of the characters and you got to advance to higher levels in more classes than anything else but a human.
Those first editions were so horrifyingly badly designed it really was an absolute crime... and some maniacs were up in arms about switching to 3rd edition even after 2nd had been left for dead for about 5 years!
Excuse me? Which wondrous edition was this that had Elves being able to reach a level higher than any other non-human race that you speak of?
It couldn't be 1st, where the highest level an Elf could achieve was an 11 in Magic User, and 10 in Assassin, and unlimited in Thief (which every race but Half-Orc got), since Half-elves could get unlimited in Druid and 11 in Assassin, and Half-Orcs got unlimited in Assassin and 10 in Fighter. And Elves only had access to 4 classes, same as Gnomes and Half-orcs, and less than Half-elves.
And it couldn't possibly be 2nd, where their highest level was a 15, and in which every race got a class they could hit 15 in, except Half-elves, who got unlimited in Bard and 16 in Ranger. And they got access to 5 classes, which is more than almost every other race, except the Half-elves who got 7 classes.
And in both editions they had the same amount of racial abilities as Dwarves and Gnomes.
So please, tell me what edition it was where Elves were sooooooo overpowered?
And same number doesn't mean equal power.
+1 on the two best weapons in the game?
Never have to sleep?
Near immunity to the most devastating spells?
Double the chance of gaining first strike?
Perhaps the Detect Secret doors wasn't great since the Dwarf and Gnome did get what was usually a superior version, but the rest...
Nothing the Dwarf nor Gnome had were anywhere close and the Halflings or Half-Orcs were **** poor in comparison. Of course, unless you were playing a high level game there was never a reason at all to be human.
Multiclass Elves got superior abilities to others (they got the best armor and the best weapons of both classes, usually others have to take the worse set).
They gained effectively exclusive access to an armor that was far, FAR above any alternative by leaps and bound.
Now, I suppose I can grant you that Half-Elves were even more over-the-top, but that doesn't make it much better.
And all this is BEFORE we get to the Complete Book of Elves.
Your Elves only had 4 classes? Are you sure about that? Want to go back and check?
Well, seeing as I was looking at the book when I wrote it ... Gee, no I don't think so. They had 4 classes in the 1st edition. Period.
And same number doesn't mean equal power.
+1 on the two best weapons in the game?
Never have to sleep?
Near immunity to the most devastating spells?
Double the chance of gaining first strike?
Perhaps the Detect Secret doors wasn't great since the Dwarf and Gnome did get what was usually a superior version, but the rest...
Nothing the Dwarf nor Gnome had were anywhere close and the Halflings or Half-Orcs were **** poor in comparison. Of course, unless you were playing a high level game there was never a reason at all to be human.
Multiclass Elves got superior abilities to others (they got the best armor and the best weapons of both classes, usually others have to take the worse set).
They gained effectively exclusive access to an armor that was far, FAR above any alternative by leaps and bound.
Now, I suppose I can grant you that Half-Elves were even more over-the-top, but that doesn't make it much better.
And all this is BEFORE we get to the Complete Book of Elves.
Nope, not seeing how they were any better than Dwarves.
Somehow, I'm not imagining an Arabic themed game world going over too hot these days.
Agreed. It would be best to wait a few years until tensions between the nations cool down. Besides, it could be seen as offensive
!Agreed. It would be best to wait a few years until tensions between the nations cool down. Besides, it could be seen as offensive
No more offensive than Assassin's Creed or Kingdom of Heaven or Disney's Aladdin (after Desert Storm) or even Sonic and the Secret Rings. Arabian culture isn't offensive; bad treatment/portrayal of any culture is.
No more offensive than Assassin's Creed or Kingdom of Heaven or Disney's Aladdin (after Desert Storm) or even Sonic and the Secret Rings. Arabian culture isn't offensive; bad treatment/portrayal of any culture is.
You are from the same state as I.
It'd be so much more interesting that even if your base area was Anglo-Saxon-Frank-Celtic mix if you sail across the sea you could wind up in a place like early feudal China with sorcerery and a real monkey king and dragon-emporer or African savanah or Babylon exaggerated like in 300 or Egypt ruled by the undead or even in a vast jungle with a Mayan-inspired culture set in a prehistoric landscape or any other number of things.
A planet like that would offer much more variety in adventures than that which we have currently.
When you look at the entire setting of Eberron, and not just Khorvaire, you basically have this. You have Khorvaire which has European-esque cultures, but also some arab-looking killer-elves (in the sense that they live in a desert, ride awesome horses, and wield scimitars), dinosaur-riding halfling barbarians, and other diverse inhabitants. Then you get away from Khorvaire to places like Sarlona, where the cultures resemble (at least superficially) India, Tibet, China, and Mongolia/Siberia.
Any lack of cultural diversity in Eberron is the result of the player's lack of imagination.
Of course, what I really love about Eberron is that none of the culture's in the setting are exact transplants, or are supposed to be. While the elves of Valenar may superficially resemble arabian horsemen, their actual culture is unique to the setting.
To get back on topic, I'd love to see Al-qadim. I never got a chance to play it. My only real exposure was a couple of 3.X era Dragon articles.
When you look at the entire setting of Eberron, and not just Khorvaire, you basically have this.
I think Hebitsuikaza was actually describing the Warhammer world. I think it was meant to be a joke, or sarcasm...
I don't know... maybe Ebberon has it, I don't know because I've never really sat down and read an Ebberon book. Between having robots as your most common race and dismissing Vampires and Werewolves a legit nightmares, it's difficult for me to stomach the setting enough to even approach.
However, Forgotten Realms and GreyHawk both have a history of having French/Germanic feel to them with a bit of Celtic and Roman thrown in enough to steal their cultural monsters. Where you do have things inspired by China or India in there, they seem to be thrown in haphazardly.
Although, Forgotten Realms used to have a lot more focus on having dinosaurs and even dinosaur people, something I've seen completely neglected since Hasbro took over. Surely I am not the only one who misses the Saurians.
Still-- what we have of Faerun is only about enough to fill up a single continent. There just isn't a reason I see that Zakhara and Karatur can't be settings on the same planet-- and a character from one can hop on a tradeship and arrive at port in a different setting.
They were originally written as areas on the same planet with different cultures and so why not stay that way? It doesn't reduce anything in the setting to say they are taking place on the same planet because generally for all the high magic, there just isn't any serious reliable method for oceanic transportation.
Plus, they all contain the same races, the same gods (even if they go by different names), the same characters classes and so forth.
Having them on the same planet means that you can read up on how a character from Zakhara behaves and if it turns out that the play group instead chose Faerun or Karatur, you can still play your character concept as a traveler.
And, even if my focus on GreyHawk is incorrect or parts of Ebberon are described as being nonwestern-- then that's all the better! Simply by writing a couple pages in the Al-Quadim or Karatur settings (I REALLY hope they drop the name "Oriental" Adventures) that there are regions in GreyHawk and Ebberon that reflect very much the cultures and accompanying rules on those worlds and even if the place names and such no longer match up, you can still play your character as a Rogue with the Corsiar background/paragon path or a Fighter with the Samurai background/paragon path (a ronin who left his lands) even if the setting isn't totally focused and devoted to that.
Furthermore, the book gives you plenty of roleplaying fodder to imagine what troubles your character may have trying to adjust to the alien culture which is the primary culture of the setting.
You are from the same state as I.
Same area of it, too.
Have we considered the possibility that it's an entirely new setting with an A in it? I assume they'd resurrect an old setting first, tho'; my thought is that there's so much buzz about DArk Sun by posters here that it's a fair bet.
Between having robots as your most common race and dismissing Vampires and Werewolves a legit nightmares, it's difficult for me to stomach the setting enough to even approach.
Wha?
I assure you, the most common race of Eberron is human, and I'm not sure what you mean by "dismissing Vampires and Werewolves a legit nightmares."
And they certainly can't spread their curse causing the survivors of their attacks to transform to be like them and the plague spreading and requiring culling before it inevitably evelops all.
But instead cuddly-wuddly furries who are sweet, kind and generous-- and breed with humans all the time and their grandchildren are commonly found in every other adventuring party across the land.
Nor are Vampires soulless savages drapped in nobelity who have a constant thirst that drives them to devour people behind closed dooors and are fried by the light of the sun should they become exposed... but instead "just different" and perfectly normal and acceptable and friend to every man and animal who passes within their castle territories-- and are furthermore recognized as legitimate and pleasing lords who are dealt with in a perfectly civil manner. And certainly they do not ever create armies of vampiric minions who raze across the land, creating more of their own kind-- for no one loses any humanity or will or is at all negatively affected by becoming a vampire, they keep exactly the same personality they had before. They just get a bunch of free powers with absolutely no drawbacks.
And this is especially true of the Dhampire offspring who not only get all the powers of being a vampire, but are in no way affected negatively by sunlight or running water or holy symbols or any of the other things that would do harm to a vampire.
And, of course, the robots-- since WotC was doing Star Wars with the D&D system it was somehow absolutely necessary to put Star Wars droids into D&D-- no matter how little sense it made. It seems to me that they get utilized more than humans as soon as the word Ebberon is dropped though.
Now, maybe I'm exaggerating just a little... but not much. And certainly not enough for the setting to be taken any more seriously than a cartoon with the target audience being 8-12. (In fact, isn't one of the main characters of the setting a 12-year old princess?)
And the really sad part is that a lot of this crap has spilled out of Ebberon and is now infecting every other series. I'm not even convinced we can even have a Ravenloft series any more because the mechanics of the symbolic monsters of the setting have been screwed up to make them into characters from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (and not even the comic version, the 80s cartoon!) and Twilight/Annitaverse.
stuff
Well, at least you've made it perfectly clear that you know nothing about Eberron.
I would prefer (but would not soon expect) something grounded in a non-European culture (or 2): perhaps Native North American or Asian, like Kara-Tur (based on historical Asia), but I think it should have more going for it than "I'm not European," you know?
even thought about getting the l5r book, and even more so the pathfinder section that seems to be ancient arabic.
only becuase its different