Races
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
Shifter
Classes
Avenger(Divine(?) Striker(?))
Barbarian(Primal Striker)
Bard(Arcane Leader)
Druid(Primal Controller(?))
Invoker(Divine(?) Controller(?))
Shaman(Primal(?) Leader)
Sorcerer(Arcane Controller)
Warden(Primal(?) Defender(?))
So what does everyone think? Good list? Bad list? Incorrect? They need to start giving us PHBIII clues?.....Well ok that last one isn't so much a question, as a demmand. *shrugs*
Invoker is likely the 'more spellcastery cleric' they talked about and will likely be a controller but could potentially be a leader or striker.
Deva was pretty much a given considering multiple posts, teasers, and the fact that the only race we didn't have combinations of based on the letter game was De.
With a recent piece of info that was just recently revealed, it is possible that we may have names(and easy to guess power sources) for all classes and races to appear in the PHBII. Here is a quick run down of what they appear to be along with links to where the information about them came from.
Races
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
Shifter
Classes
Avenger(Divine(?) Striker(?))
Barbarian(Primal Striker)
Bard(Arcane Leader)
Druid(Primal ?)
Invoker(Divine(?) Controller(?))
Shaman(Primal(?) Leader)
Sorcerer(Arcane Controller)
Warden(Primal(?) Defender(?))
So what does everyone think? Good list? Bad list? Incorrect? They need to start giving us PHBIII clues?.....Well ok that last one isn't so much a question, as a demmand. *shrugs*
Nope, I still don't believe it. I don't want to believe it. I liked "Inquisitor" and "Theurge".
There's better names that could have been picked than "Avenger" and "Invoker". "Invoker" is too much like "Evocation" (Primal powers) for me, and "Avenger" was the name of a Druidic (read: Primal) variant class in 3E, not to mention that there's already an "Angelic Avenger" (Cleric Paragon Path) for "Avenger" to get confused with.
I'm still crossing my fingers on this one.
EDIT: FWIW, it's "Avenger" that really bugs me. I could handle "Invoker" as a Divine Controller.
Wasn't there supposed to be a 'T' class in there?
I followed your links, but I didn't see any references to Avengers or Invokers in the attached post (but I might have missed them).
Wasn't there supposed to be a 'T' class in there?
page two of the character sheet, look at his companions.
Wasn't there supposed to be a 'T' class in there?
There was. But there wasn't suppose to be an 'A' class. Given how long ago we got the letter clues, I'm assuming the 'T' class was swapped out (or renamed) to the 'A' class.
Considering Avenger is likely a Divine Striker, I believe that the 'T' class was a Templar which was also a Divine Striker. I believe they renamed it because of developments with the third campaign to be released which I believe to be Dark Sun :P
What am I basing all this on? Mostly my imagination ;)
I know it's way too late for WotC to make changes to the book, but I'd still have liked to see Sorcerers as Primal Controllers. Controllers are rare enough without putting both of them in the Arcane power source. It's not about grid-filling, it's that for the four power sources of the Core Books, there are only three controllers, two of which are Arcane. It seems a little unbalanced. I think I might house-rule Sorcerers as Primal, unless there is a mechanical reason for them to remain Arcane.
Currently, rumour is that PH2 will contain possibly three different controllers:
Sorcerer Arcane Controller (Confirmed)
Druid Primal Controller (Speculated)
Invoker :cry: Divine Controller (Speculated)
I'm not sure if or how this may change your plans. Obviously, it could still be inaccurate, and you still have final say in your own game at home.
Nope, I still don't believe it. I don't want to believe it. I liked "Inquisitor" and "Theurge".
There's better names that could have been picked than "Avenger" and "Invoker". "Invoker" is too much like "Evocation" (Primal powers) for me, and "Avenger" was the name of a Druidic (read: Primal) variant class in 3E, not to mention that there's already an "Angelic Avenger" (Cleric Paragon Path) for "Avenger" to get confused with.
I'm still crossing my fingers on this one.
EDIT: FWIW, it's "Avenger" that really bugs me. I could handle "Invoker" as a Divine Controller.
I agree with you completely. Avenger is a horrible class name. However it appears that we are stuck with it.
Although I personally never liked Theruge. I was personally sort of hoping for Inquisitor(stiker) and Templar(controller)....It's not about grid-filling...
...It seems a little unbalanced...
You don't think those statements contradict each other? :P
Because I most definitely think they do. There is no problem with having two arcane controllers. That's like saying there's a problems with having two martial strikers.
I think I might house-rule Sorcerers as Primal, unless there is a mechanical reason for them to remain Arcane.
There shouldn't be any mechanical reason to, no, but why make Sorcerer Primal? That makes no sense. Their powers don't come from nature. Their power comes from the arcane blood they've inherited from their arcane ancestors (Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Genies, and so on...).
I like Templar better than Avenger as well, but then I liked Marshall better than Warlord
Yep, this keeps reminding me of the polls we'd see a year ago: "What do you think of the name 'Warlord'?"
I still don't like the name "Avenger". :P
I still don't like the name "Avenger". :P
but its been my favorite comic for decades
but its been my favorite comic for decades
lol It's fine for a comic name. It's got too much baggage to be a class name, I think.
Not to get technical, it does confirm there's a class called the avenger, but it doesn't necessarily confirm there's a class called the avenger in the PHBII. But that's also the case with the Invoker, Warden and Shaman.
Good point! It reminds me that part of why "Avenger" bugs me so much is that I keep thinking it's being used in place of a better name for a one of the Divine classes. OTOH, I can see it as a Primal class; maybe Avenger isn't Divine at all. Perhaps we've had "Warden" all wrong, too; maybe the Warden is a Divine class? I don't know, I'm just wildly speculated to justify my feelings. (I could be right!)
Then again, maybe they've just based the class on you, bro. :P
avenger makes me think of cyrean avenger from 3.5... so it could be eberron.
As much as I'd love to agree with you, it strikes me as extremely unlikely, Serphet.
Perhaps we've had "Warden" all wrong, too; maybe the Warden is a Divine class?
I could definitely see Warden as a divine controller. When I first hear Warden I tend to think of a Ranger-like class. But a Divine Warden would definitely be cool.
lol It's fine for a comic name. It's got too much baggage to be a class name, I think.
Honestly I have issues with the name Avengers for a superhero team because they aren't really Avenging anything, they are just protecting people and the universe from stuff. The Avengers should be going out an extracting vengence on people or something.
As much as I'd love to agree with you, it strikes me as extremely unlikely, Serphet.
I think it unlikely to, however, what other book would they release a class in? PHB's and player's guide to to X are the only books that classes have come out in so far. A was not a letter given for PHB classes (so either it's changed, or something else)
Good point! It reminds me that part of why "Avenger" bugs me so much is that I keep thinking it's being used in place of a better name for a one of the Divine classes. OTOH, I can see it as a Primal class; maybe Avenger isn't Divine at all. Perhaps we've had "Warden" all wrong, too; maybe the Warden is a Divine class? I don't know, I'm just wildly speculated to justify my feelings. (I could be right!)
Then again, maybe they've just based the class on you, bro. :P
As much as I'd love to agree with you, it strikes me as extremely unlikely, Serphet.
Oh come on now, I'm no more happy with this development than you are, but you just need to face facts. Invoker and Avenger are the new divine classes. There is no solid evidence, but you know it true. You just don't want to admit it. This is no better than the Doppleganger incident from a few months ago. The sooner you accept it, the sooner I can stop having to worry about a redux of that happening. And making me happy should be your primary goal in life.:P
However as some evidence, although admitedly not very much, just take a look at the all the race-class combos in the companion list(plus the race and class of the char sheet itself). Do you notice anything about them at all? Anything at all along the lines that every single one of the race/class combos is a complete stereotype(with a possible exceptions of the half-elf cleric and human fighter because I'm not sure if there is a stereotyped half-elf class and humans have multiple stereotypes). Elf? Ranger. Dragonborn? Fighter. Tiefling? Warlock. Now what type of classes would Aasimars v4.0 be associated with?
So Avengers are simply going to be Inquisitors with a stupider name that is easier to spell. Likely they went with Avenger because Inquisitor has some nasty images associated with it.
Wis vs Will, Immediate Reaction, Trigger: You or an ally within 5 squares is dealt damage, Hit: Deal damage to the enemy equal to the damage it dealt with the triggering attack. This damage ignores resistance.
To make another mechanical guess, if the Warden is a Primal Defender, maybe it works with a pet to do things like prevent movement when flanking with the pet, and maybe generate marks from the character and the pet.
My last guess is that the Shaman will make more use of the conjuration rules we have, making fairly powerful conjurations that can be attacked and have hp, and use the shaman's actions to move and attack. More useful versions of the cleric conjuration powers we have.
Oh come on now, I'm no more happy with this development than you are, but you just need to face facts. Invoker and Avenger are the new divine classes. There is no solid evidence, but you know it true. You just don't want to admit it. This is no better than the Doppleganger incident from a few months ago. The sooner you accept it, the sooner I can stop having to worry about a redux of that happening. And making me happy should be your primary goal in life.:P
However as some evidence, although admitedly not very much, just take a look at the all the race-class combos in the companion list(plus the race and class of the char sheet itself). Do you notice anything about them at all? Anything at all along the lines that every single one of the race/class combos is a complete stereotype(with a possible exceptions of the half-elf cleric and human fighter because I'm not sure if there is a stereotyped half-elf class and humans have multiple stereotypes). Elf? Ranger. Dragonborn? Fighter. Tiefling? Warlock. Now what type of classes would Aasimars v4.0 be associated with?
So Avengers are simply going to be Inquisitors with a stupider name that is easier to spell. Likely they went with Avenger because Inquisitor has some nasty images associated with it.
lol You're a funny guy, Ranadiel. :P That said, I'm going to hold out until solid evidence proves me wrong, just like I did with "D = Doppelganger!" and "Barbarian is a Primal Defender!" (Hey, I did guess "W = Warden!" way ahead of schedule, though.)
Come to think of it, I might be starting to think of this speculating game as as much fun as D&D!
It's pretty fun, after all.lol You're a funny guy, Ranadiel. :P That said, I'm going to hold out until solid evidence proves me wrong, just like I did with "D = Doppelganger!" and "Barbarian is a Primal Defender!" (Hey, I did guess "W = Warden!" way ahead of schedule, though.)
Come to think of it, I might be starting to think of this speculating game as as much fun as D&D!
Need I point out that every time you hold out, I have ended up winning?:P I converted to Deva well before it was revealed. I was always in the Barbarian=Primal Striker camp. And I was with you for Warden. And I had silently accepted Invoker around the time Warden was announced. I just have a better track record than you.
And I agree with you on the speculation being as much fun as D&D.:D
Need I point out that every time you hold out, I have ended up winning?:P I converted to Deva well before it was revealed. I was always in the Barbarian=Primal Striker camp. And I was with you for Warden. And I had silently accepted Invoker around the time Warden was announced. I just have a better track record than you.
lol Nope, won't believe this either until it gets officially revealed by WotC. :P
And I agree with you on the speculation being as much fun as D&D.:D
Amen! I can't wait until we start guessing for PH3! :D
(Actually, we already have; there's a 4E Psionics thread where this is already happening. Empath FTW!)
In regards to the Invoker I'm basicly indifferent. I'll save my judgements for when I see it.
With a recent piece of info that was just recently revealed, it is possible that we may have names(and easy to guess power sources) for all classes and races to appear in the PHBII. Here is a quick run down of what they appear to be along with links to where the information about them came from.
Races
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
Shifter
Classes
Avenger(Divine(?) Striker(?))
Barbarian(Primal Striker)
Bard(Arcane Leader)
Druid(Primal Controller(?))
Invoker(Divine(?) Controller(?))
Shaman(Primal(?) Leader)
Sorcerer(Arcane Controller)
Warden(Primal(?) Defender(?))
So what does everyone think? Good list? Bad list? Incorrect? They need to start giving us PHBIII clues?.....Well ok that last one isn't so much a question, as a demmand. *shrugs*
Ranadiel, let me express my admiration for your diligence. Putting together all those links was great work. Congratulations, and thanks!
I am actually OK with the names, including Avenger (as long as he is actually "avenging" something...) Coming from a country where the Inquisition actually operated for a while in historical times, I can tell you it really irked me to think about a heroic class named after one of the most poorly conceived, cruelest and most racist moneymaking schemes in the history of mediaeval Europe. Good riddance.
I do hope the Templar will be included in the Player's Guide to Dark Sun (implying of course that I really, truly hope that Dark Sun is being brought back --- a piece of speculation that I am hopeful about after finding out that WotC is re-printing Troy Denning's Prism Pentad series).
I agree with you, Ranadiel, in most of your unconfirmed guesses.
Minotaurs as portrayed in the Dragon article don't strike me as particularly religious, so the Warden is pretty surely a Primal class if they favour it.
As to the shaman... I hope that his leaderly powers infuse his allies with the "spirit" of animals, giving them flavourful bonuses (you know, Eagle Sight and Bear's Strength, that sort of thing) and that they don't do as much summoning... I believe it is a good thing that summoning has been reduced to a manageable size in this edition, and would hate to have my all-time favourite class concept to include an unwieldy amount of instant pets in its design. (Plus, real-world shamans don't "summon" anything...)
Currently, rumour is that PH2 will contain possibly three different controllers:
Sorcerer Arcane Controller (Confirmed)
Druid Primal Controller (Speculated)
Invoker :cry: Divine Controller (Speculated)
I'm not sure if or how this may change your plans. Obviously, it could still be inaccurate, and you still have final say in your own game at home.
It would, actually, and for the better. Controllers were underrepresented in PHB I and having a 3rd Controller in PHB II would be IMO a Very Good Thing. Just as there are 2 Martial Strikers, I'm very willing to have 2 Arcane Controllers, as long as players have a couple of other choices.
You don't think those statements contradict each other? :P
Because I most definitely think they do. There is no problem with having two arcane controllers. That's like saying there's a problems with having two martial strikers.
Not really. Those of us who want a Striker but don't want the Martial power source will have the option of a Warlock or Barbarian (and perhaps Avenger). This gives options from multiple other sources. If there are 2 Arcane Controllers and only one other (perhaps the Invoker), then unless you want an Invoker, you're going to draw from the Arcane power source. That would be too limiting.
However - and very happily - a couple of people pointed out the possibility of 3 Controllers in the PHB II. With the Invoker (Divine) and Druid (Primal), there is a variety of power sources to choose from for people who want to play a Controller but don't want to have the Arcane power source. The grid doesn't have to be filled (Martial Controller would be difficult to do, for example), it just needs to be balanced.
Just like every party in 3.x had to have a Cleric (or Druid, as the Druid could fill in for any class), it would have been sad if every 4e party had to have a Wizard (or Druid) just to get a Controller in the group. With Controllers from 3 different power sources in the PHB II, that won't be a problem.
There shouldn't be any mechanical reason to, no, but why make Sorcerer Primal? That makes no sense. Their powers don't come from nature. Their power comes from the arcane blood they've inherited from their arcane ancestors (Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Genies, and so on...).
I'd have made Sorcerer Primal because there's no Elemental power source yet. But yes, if there were, my vision of the Sorcerer would have been Elemental.
page two of the character sheet, look at his companions.
Ah, good eye! Thanks.
I'd have made Sorcerer Primal because there's no Elemental power source yet. But yes, if there were, my vision of the Sorcerer would have been Elemental.
. . . And why does Elemental make more sense than Arcane exactly?
Honestly, I'm not really seeing the point of the Elemental power source in general so far. What does it do that Arcane doesn't?
. . . And why does Elemental make more sense than Arcane exactly?
Honestly, I'm not really seeing the point of the Elemental power source in general so far. What does it do that Arcane doesn't?
We won't know until we start seeing previews. I don't see a point to the Primal power source, either, but it's there and, evidently, some people like it.
We won't know until we start seeing previews. I don't see a point to the Primal power source, either, but it's there and, evidently, some people like it.
Animals! Weather! Natural disasters! It's magic with a very narrow theme.
Animals! Weather! Natural disasters! It's magic with a very narrow theme.
So, why's the Barbarian primal instead of martial?
More to the point, again, the power sources are largely fluff. I can't see why the Druid can't be divine or arcane. The whole 'nature magic' thing doesn't sink in for me.
Barbarians are primal because they fight more off instinct and channelling the spirits of animals, not because of training and dedication (martial).
Druids are primal because they call on the primal forces of nature for their power often directly not through pacts (Warlock) or book study (wizards).
Shamans are primal because they commune with the spirits (possibly of their ancestors, or with nature) not with dieties (divine/cleric) or other forces (warlock/arcane).
Warden we'll have to see to figure out what it is. Of course it is possible that Avenger is primal and Warden divine but likely it's the other way around since the deva companion was an avenger and the companions seemed to use classes that had primary stats the race had bonuses in.
Primal is primitive, forces of nature, spirits of nature and the ancestors.
Arcane is raw magic, gained through study, pacts, or bloodline.
Divine is drawing on the gods for your power and to champion your cause.
Ki is drawing on your soul for your power.
Martial is drawing on training and practice (the most mundane power source).
Shadow is drawing on the essense of the shadowfell.
Elemental is drawing on the elemental chaos and possibly demons and the Abyss for power.
Power sources are just that, where you draw your power from, and loosely how. Notice that only arcane classes so far use implements at all.
. . . And why does Elemental make more sense than Arcane exactly?
Honestly, I'm not really seeing the point of the Elemental power source in general so far. What does it do that Arcane doesn't?
It's okay - I'll try to explain. To return to my first post in this thread, I was saying it's a shame there are only 2 Controllers in the PHB II, and that of those only 2, one hails from the Arcane power source. Because of this, the 16 core classes from the 2 PHB's only have 3 Controllers, 2 of which have the same power source.
Unless the third controller has something compelling to offer, that means that your typical party will have a Leader, Defender, Striker and Wizard/Sorcerer. It was sad to me that to be a Controller meant being an Arcane Primary Caster, with an occasional person choosing the sole non-Arcane Controller.
It seemed limiting that most Controllers in the game would have the Arcane power source. Kind of like saying you can have lots of different flavours of pie or cake or donuts, or you could have either Chocolate, or Chocolate-Ribbon ice cream (or Vanilla for the mystery Controller from PHB II).
I would have reimaged the Sorcerer as coming from the Primal power source, changing the fluff as much as possible to make them sound as non-Arcane as possible, to give some more variety in the type of Controllers out there. Using the above metaphor, to provide Chocolate, Vanilla or Strawberry ice cream.
Fortunately, there is already going to be a Primal Controller available - the Druid hopefully will fill this role. With the Invoker as a Divine Controller, this means that of the 2 core PHB's 16 classes, there are 4 Controllers that draw from 3 of the 4 available power sources. A great relief to me, as this sort of variety I feel adds greatly to the game.
Including the FRPG and EPG, that means we have:
5 Leaders
5 Strikers
4 Defenders
4 Controllers
And it also means that each role could draw from at least 3 of the 4 available power sources. That's enough variety to make almost anyone happy.
I hope this helps. Basically, I was complaining about something that it turned out won't be the case.
Because of this, the 16 core classes from the 2 PHB's only have 3 Controllers, 2 of which have the same power source.
I don't see the problem. In the PHB we have 3 strikers, 2 or which have the same power source: Martial. To suggest that two classes will feel the same just because they fill the same role and power source is ridiculous. Do you honestly feel that the Ranger and Rogue feel the same? What about the Artificer and Bard?
It was sad to me that to be a Controller meant being an Arcane Primary Caster, with an occasional person choosing the sole non-Arcane Controller.
. . . Do you think the below is valid?:
It was sad to me that to be a Striker meant being a Martial combatant, with an occasional person choosing the sole non-Martial Striker.
Because I don't think it is... Really, the above statement and yours are exactly the same.
It seemed limiting that most Controllers in the game would have the Arcane power source.
I don't see why it's limiting, and I don't see why it's a problem. Your metaphor with the food didn't do anything other than make me hungry. :P
I hope this helps. Basically, I was complaining about something that it turned out won't be the case.
It doesn't really help because you were also complaining about something that wasn't a problem. :P
The lack of controllers in general may be a problem, yes, but there being more than one arcane controller isn't.
I do hope the Templar will be included in the Player's Guide to Dark Sun (implying of course that I really, truly hope that Dark Sun is being brought back --- a piece of speculation that I am hopeful about after finding out that WotC is re-printing Troy Denning's Prism Pentad series).
How do you envision a 4e Templar class would differ from the 4e Paladin?
I just don't see WotC recreating Dark Sun without massive changes to include the 4e races and classes. I firmly believe one of those changes will be all members of the Divine classes are called Lord/Lady templar.
Ranadiel, let me express my admiration for your diligence. Putting together all those links was great work. Congratulations, and thanks!
You are welcome, although I was just trying to focus the discussion and copied the links from my uber thread, so it really wasn't too much effort for me.
I don't think templar was ever a consideration... they where an organization not a class of fighter, they are to specific (similar, but more so than the "marshall").
Sort of like Hospitlars?:P Anyways, I think that Templars could have worked as simply a name, similair to Paladin, but I can understand why they didn't go for it.
It's a pity that Hybrids were abandoned, Templar actually sounds like a good name for a Divine Melee Hybrid to me. Still, I understand the logic in the decision.
Here's what the PHB3 classes will be
Hexblade*
Ninja
Necromancer
Illusionist
Psychic Warrior*
Telepath
Samurai
Monk
*Likely to change their names
Power sources are just that, where you draw your power from, and loosely how. Notice that only arcane classes so far use implements at all.
Uh . . . . what? Funny, last I checked, the holy symbols of Clerics and Paladins are Implements too . . . .
I don't think templar was ever a consideration... they where an organization not a class of fighter, they are to specific (similar, but more so than the "marshall").
The Templar was a class in 2e, and revamped in a Dragon article for 3.x I believe. So I think that saying never is a bit unlikely.
I don't see the problem. In the PHB we have 3 strikers, 2 or which have the same power source: Martial. To suggest that two classes will feel the same just because they fill the same role and power source is ridiculous. Do you honestly feel that the Ranger and Rogue feel the same? What about the Artificer and Bard?
. . . Do you think the below is valid?:
It was sad to me that to be a Striker meant being a Martial combatant, with an occasional person choosing the sole non-Martial Striker.
Because I don't think it is... Really, the above statement and yours are exactly the same.
I don't see why it's limiting, and I don't see why it's a problem. Your metaphor with the food didn't do anything other than make me hungry. :P
It doesn't really help because you were also complaining about something that wasn't a problem. :P
The lack of controllers in general may be a problem, yes, but there being more than one arcane controller isn't.
I don't agree with the comparison. Complaining about a lack of flexibility in power source after 8 classes have been released is not the same as saying there should be flexibility after an additional 10 have been released.
I'm slightly surprised, as I expected the last two classes to leak one at a time. No problem with the names, though 'Avenger' may be confused with the Angelic Avenger paragon path.
Here's what the PHB3 classes will be
Hexblade*
Ninja
Necromancer
Illusionist
Psychic Warrior*
Telepath
Samurai
Monk
*Likely to change their names
so you feel that PHB3 will deal with ki, psionic and shadow?
You have got to be kidding me...
Alright, lets take a look.
With a recent piece of info that was just recently revealed, it is possible that we may have names(and easy to guess power sources) for all classes and races to appear in the PHBII. Here is a quick run down of what they appear to be along with links to where the information about them came from.
Nice work on this...
Races
Deva
Really, elf3? Diva? what?
I get the feeling from what has been posted here and elsewhere that this is the Aasimar revisioned, but really, could they pick a worse name?
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
The less we say about the Half Orc/Dragonborn race, the better. Why we have to have the same race in both books with a different name is a puzzler. The Gnome, a given from the beginning, should still be in the first book. The Tiefling looks better within the pages of this book, and I like the inclusion of the Goliath, most likely the best choice in the whole book.
Shifter
The Shifter making the jump from the Eberron setting to basic is a very well made decision. It is the best race in the 3.5 book, and a very well conceived race.
So there are only five (5) races in the book? Are they rationing the races a little at a time?
Classes
Avenger(Divine(?) Striker(?))
The... OK, I am gonna here "Avenger's Assemble" now every time I see this class.
Barbarian(Primal Striker)
Bard(Arcane Leader)
Druid(Primal Controller(?))
Yep.. yep.. yep. Still think the Druid is a shape shifter. Has anything been announced/leaked that is different than the original offering? How can a shape shifter be a controller?
Invoker(Divine(?) Controller(?))
I guess it is one of the schools in the mage specialization turned into a class? Am I missing something?
Shaman(Primal(?) Leader)
So weather magic is gonna be leader like? Makes sense I guess, like the previous edition's cleric never used offensive spells all that much.
Sorcerer(Arcane Controller)
Yep... I am so disappointed that it is seeming to role over the stupid bloodlines crap from the previous edition. I hope that the actual powers and class is better than that, and not have the "Pact" choices renamed "bloody pasts."
Warden(Primal(?) Defender(?))
Wardin... sorta like the name Warlord. A job description or a rank, not really a class name. Well, ok, it is now.
Overall, it is looking like table scraps. I am wondering if some rules will be repeated in this book that is already in the first, the main point being that a player would be able to pick up one or the other and not have to refer to the book they don't have. Perhaps it will be a thinner volume to make it less costly than the previous book. I can't see new rules being done to supersede some of the bad ones in the first book.
The last thing is that I am really trying to avoid looking at "roles" at the moment. I look at them as a design aid, not something the player has to worry about much and an aid for a DM to make some decisions for the group he has. There is no grid, Wizards has repeatably said this, some power sources are better at some roles and don't do other roles well. It is the nature of the genre. The Fighter goes in while the Mage stands back and spurts out enchantments. That is how it is.
I don't think templar was ever a consideration... they where an organization not a class of fighter, they are to specific (similar, but more so than the "marshall").
Historically you are absolutely correct, but from a modern perspective (especially as it relates to a pseudo-historical fantasy setting is not the same thing. I could go into detail but I'll let the following link serve as an example (even if a somewhat extreme one.
Knight Templar at TV Tropes
So there are only five (5) races in the book? Are they rationing the races a little at a time?
I think its because Shifters have multiple sub-variants (razorclaw and Longtooth so far). I would not be surprised if PHB2 features 4 types of shifters bringing the race count up to a pseudo 8.
I guess it is one of the schools in the mage specialization turned into a class? Am I missing something?
sort of, in old school terms its a "white mage", not of healing though.
note the difference between an evoker and an invoker.
I believe an invoker would be a "diviner" , from the non godly sense of the word divine (like divination). If this si the case, wouldn't the invoker be a divine leader.
(see the pattern that'd make?)
arcane has one role twice, one role not at all (swordmage doesn't count for phb tier 1 core... yes I know its rpga sanctioned and cross setting, but its not a tier 1*)
divine would have a role twice (leader), and have one role not at all (striker or controller)
martial has a role twice (striker), and no controllers
that leaves
elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow.
that is 3 over my projections, however I foresee(I'm an invoker irl
) another power source being created (4 T1 classes per source), to make the books add up to completion.this is all speculation, but think about the amount of order the R&D devs have brought to 4e, doesn't this seem on track?
-------
as for templar, its all speculation, and incredibly irrelevant.
*my definition of T1 core is PHBx DMGx and MMx
And because it has to be said,
DRAGONBORN
AND
HALF-ORCS
ARE NOT
THE SAME RACE
as for templar, its all speculation, and incredibly irrelevant.
*my definition of T1 core is PHBx DMGx and MMx
What? This entire thread is about current and past speculation. It is incredibly relevant. Especially considering the hints that Dark Sun is likely to get a setting release, and the Templar's ties to Dark Sun.
My thoughts.
You have got to be kidding me...
Alright, lets take a look.
...
Really, elf3? Diva? what?
I get the feeling from what has been posted here and elsewhere that this is the Aasimar revisioned, but really, could they pick a worse name?
Not Diva, Deva. You pronounce it /day-va/.
The less we say about the Half Orc/Dragonborn race, the better. Why we have to have the same race in both books with a different name is a puzzler. The Gnome, a given from the beginning, should still be in the first book. The Tiefling looks better within the pages of this book, and I like the inclusion of the Goliath, most likely the best choice in the whole book.
You're seriously still beating the "Half-Orc = Dragonborn" stick, thaX? Not only is this position verifiably false, you're also probably the only person anywhere who thinks this. Why are you still on about it?
I have no idea what you mean about Tieflings "look[ing] better in this book". As for where Gnomes ought to have been, you're six months too late and there's nothing you can do about it; why are you complaining about it?
The Shifter making the jump from the Eberron setting to basic is a very well made decision. It is the best race in the 3.5 book, and a very well conceived race.
I'm with you here, bro!
So there are only five (5) races in the book? Are they rationing the races a little at a time?
No more than they're rationing classes.
...
Yep.. yep.. yep. Still think the Druid is a shape shifter. Has anything been announced/leaked that is different than the original offering? How can a shape shifter be a controller?
As a matter of fact, yes, there has been additional news: The druid will not be a hybrid class. It will most likely be a weather-magic Primal Controller class, but possibly a wildshape-based Primal Defender or Striker. (Controller is more likely, though.)
Invoker: Divine Controller?
I guess it is one of the schools in the mage specialization turned into a class? Am I missing something?
Plenty. Think about the definition of "Invoker", rather than the history of that term in D&D. FWIW, Primal powers are known as "Evocations". I know, if it actually is a Divine class, it's going to be way unnecessarily confusing.
Shaman: Primal Leader
So weather magic is gonna be leader like? Makes sense I guess, like the previous edition's cleric never used offensive spells all that much.
Shamans are rumoured to be summoners, calling spirits of the wilderness (animals) to fight for them.
Sorcerer: Arcane Controller
Yep... I am so disappointed that it is seeming to role over the stupid bloodlines crap from the previous edition. I hope that the actual powers and class is better than that, and not have the "Pact" choices renamed "bloody pasts."
I see....
Wardin... sorta like the name Warlord. A job description or a rank, not really a class name. Well, ok, it is now.
W-A-R-D-E-N. FWIW, it's not really any worse a name than "Ranger". Some new folks confuse "Cleric" with "clerk". The first time I played D&D, I thought "Fighter" was a stupid name; it made me think of a jet plane.
Overall, it is looking like table scraps. I am wondering if some rules will be repeated in this book that is already in the first, the main point being that a player would be able to pick up one or the other and not have to refer to the book they don't have. Perhaps it will be a thinner volume to make it less costly than the previous book. I can't see new rules being done to supersede some of the bad ones in the first book.
PH2 will not replace the Player's Handbook. You still need the first one for rules.
You're seriously still beating the "Half-Orc = Dragonborn" stick, thaX? Not only is this position verifiably false, you're also probably the only person anywhere who thinks this. Why are you still on about it?
At this point I think he's just doing it for the reaction he gets.
What? This entire thread is about current and past speculation. It is incredibly relevant. Especially considering the hints that Dark Sun is likely to get a setting release, and the Templar's ties to Dark Sun.
I meant speculation as to the name of the phb2 class, not anything else.
note the difference between an evoker and an invoker.
From an etymological point of view, to "evoke" is to call up (literally "call out") power from within yourself; to "invoke" is to "call in" power from a higher authority. The two terms fit perfectly as primal and divine, respectively.
Not Diva, Deva. You pronounce it /day-va/.
Correct. The two words have the same Indo-European root (originally meaning "shining one"), but "diva" came to us via Latin, while "deva" is from Sanskrit. Deva in D&D4 will be the mortal incarnations of minor divine entities, not failed VP candidates. ;)
Interestingly, the original Deva were good deities in Vedic India and evil ones in Zoroastrian Iran. I hope this moral duality is explored in 4th edition, rather than the way Aasimar were always portrayed as sickeningly goody-goody in 3rd.
-Barbarian = Primal Defender
-Druid = Primal Striker
-Invoker = Divine Striker
-Theurge = Divine Controller
-Witch = Primal Controller
While I have no problem and totally dig all the names and speculated roles of the PHB II classes, I was still holding out for!
-Barbarian = Primal Defender
-Druid = Primal Striker
-Invoker = Divine Striker
-Theurge = Divine Controller
-Witch = Primal Controller
You are aware that the Barbarian was completely confirmed as a striker something like a month ago right? Still hoping for a Primal Defender Barbarian isn't really holding it. It is more like deluding yourself.:P
Oh and Warden is confirmed as appearing in the PHBII, so hoping for a Witch is starting to enter into the same territory.
You are aware that the Barbarian was completely confirmed as a striker something like a month ago right? Still hoping for a Primal Defender Barbarian isn't really holding it. It is more like deluding yourself.:P
Oh and Warden is confirmed as appearing in the PHBII, so hoping for a Witch is starting to enter into the same territory.
...Was...
I said I have no problem with what we know the classes to be, I was just posting my old wishes, stop trying to repress me, we've talked about this, O self-appointed lord of future releases/speculation!
...Was...
I said I have no problem with what we know the classes to be, I was just posting my old wishes, stop trying to repress me, we've talked about this, O self-appointed lord of future releases/speculation!
I'll repress or opress whoever I want to!:P
And the way you worded that, it made it seem like you were still holding onto those hopes until you saw this thread......which seemed off. So I felt an inate urge to ridicule you for it.:P
You're seriously still beating the "Half-Orc = Dragonborn" stick, thaX? Not only is this position verifiably false, you're also probably the only person anywhere who thinks this. Why are you still on about it?
Prediction: thaX's response to this post will not contain a quote (so you won't know when he's replying to you) and will draw a vague and illogical link about how Half-Orcs and Dragonborn are both strong and therefore the same race.
Then he will do it again. No matter how much you reply to him, he won't dignify anything you say by acknowledging its existence, much less by giving straight answers.
I'll repress or opress whoever I want to!:P
And the way you worded that, it made it seem like you were still holding onto those hopes until you saw this thread......which seemed off. So I felt an inate urge to ridicule you for it.:P
I bet as a good sadist you never hit a masochist!
I am really happy about the way all the classes look to be shaping up – I am most excited at checking out the Invoker, what with the Cleric being my favourite 4th Ed class so far…not that I ever get a chance to be a player…*sad eyes*
page two of the character sheet, look at his companions.
Wow, I'm impressed. Someone critted their Perception check!
I like it -- I had a soft spot for INQUISITOR, but admittedly that is because I am a Warhammer 40K fan. Avenger fits D&D better, and it is much less specific (which is always good). I figure that theurge and invoker are about equivalent as divine controllers go.
And I agree with Ranadiel -- now that all the cats are out of the bag, it's time for some PHB3 spoilers. :D
...
Correct. The two words have the same Indo-European root (originally meaning "shining one"), but "diva" came to us via Latin, while "deva" is from Sanskrit. Deva in D&D4 will be the mortal incarnations of minor divine entities, not failed VP candidates. ;)
...
Oh, snap!
You deserve posrep for this!At this point I think he's just doing it for the reaction he gets.
You're probably right...
Prediction: thaX's response to this post will not contain a quote (so you won't know when he's replying to you) and will draw a vague and illogical link about how Half-Orcs and Dragonborn are both strong and therefore the same race.
Then he will do it again. No matter how much you reply to him, he won't dignify anything you say by acknowledging its existence, much less by giving straight answers.
lol Does it count as predicting the future when you're actually describing the past, Awesome_Dude? :P
To give thaX some credit, I once asked him to stop threadcrapping and start his own thread about his "theory", and he did. I think things went downhill from there.
As far as Eberron is concerned, there are like 5 or so kinds of shifter. I hope we'll get at least 3 within the PHBII, which to me roughly translates to 7 races (total)
I think we're "only" getting 5 races because, supposedly, Shifter is more than just one race, as you can see on the MM.
As far as Eberron is concerned, there are like 5 or so kinds of shifter. I hope we'll get at least 3 within the PHBII, which to me roughly translates to 7 races (total)
I sure hope so!
lol Does is count as predicting the future when you're actually describing the past, Awesome_Dude? :P
HOLY CRAP HOW DO YOU KNOW IM A FRAUD
To give thaX some credit, I once asked him to stop threadcrapping and start his own thread about his "theory", and he did. I think things went downhill from there.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate him, or even disapprove of him more than slightly. I'm just tired of the repetition.
HOLY CRAP HOW DO YOU KNOW IM A FRAUD
I'm inside yer head!
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate him, or even disapprove of him more than slightly. I'm just tired of the repetition.
Hear hear! My experience has been that he's not actually that bad a guy those times when he's not being ridiculous.*
*Was that a backhanded compliment or a backhanded insult? I'm not sure.... At any rate, I meant it in a friendly way.
so you feel that PHB3 will deal with ki, psionic and shadow?
I don't know that they will - but I'm highly confident. Those sources will allow them to include the classes players have been waiting for - such as monk, necromancer, and 'psion' - leaving the decks clear to include a bunch of new stuff in PHB4.
Interestingly, the original Deva were good deities in Vedic India and evil ones in Zoroastrian Iran. I hope this moral duality is explored in 4th edition, rather than the way Aasimar were always portrayed as sickeningly goody-goody in 3rd.
Hear hear. This is what I hope for too.
Really, elf3? Diva? what?
I hear that their backstory will consist of being the offspring of people who were raped by the gods.
And because it has to be said,
DRAGONBORN
AND
HALF-ORCS
ARE NOT
THE SAME RACE
Really? I thought Dragonborn were the offspring of humans who had been raped by dragons? That's why they have breasts and stuff.
I think its because Shifters have multiple sub-variants (razorclaw and Longtooth so far). I would not be surprised if PHB2 features 4 types of shifters bringing the race count up to a pseudo 8.
I doubt it. I think it more likely they'll be set up like Genasi.
I doubt it. I think it more likely they'll be set up like Genasi.
But the MM stats for the two types of Shifters presented had different racial stat modifiers, while Genasi had identical racial modifiers. As such, the situation isn't an exact copy. I think that having four types of shifters with unique entries, while more than a little excessive, would certainly explain the oddity in them only having five new races
How do you envision a 4e Templar class would differ from the 4e Paladin?
I just don't see WotC recreating Dark Sun without massive changes to include the 4e races and classes. I firmly believe one of those changes will be all members of the Divine classes are called Lord/Lady templar.
I dunno. From what I recall, what made the Templars unique was that they didn't worship a deity but an actual person - the sorcerer-king - as opposed to the clerics that worshipped elemental powers. I recall that was quite an innovation for me when I played/ran Dark Sun with AD&D...
I suppose, thinking about it, it wouldn't make that much of a difference with 4e who or what you worship...
Whatever changes they make, I still think that Dark Sun would be an awesome setting to bring into 4e, so here's hoping.
C
sorc & bard are the arcane.
there should only be two arcane classes ( 2 divine, and 4 primal)
sorc & bard are the arcane.
says who exactly? Is that a known fact, 2 divine 2 arcane 4 primal?
that would make 4 arcane, 4 divine, 4 martial, and 4 primal classes (tier 1 core). I am willing to bet that every power source lacks a role, and doubles a role.
So what is the class in the Forgotten Realms players guide? What power source is it?
basically all things are "core" but some things are more core than others (tier 1, tier 2)
it makes sense doesn't it?
I'm not interested in playing in FR... while the book most likely has feat, magic item and an entire class that I could use, I'm not going to buy it, and they'll never be swordmage in my game.
This greatly 'devalues' (by about 1/5th) the upcoming Arcane Power for me.
It sure does.
I'm not interested in playing in FR... while the book most likely has feat, magic item and an entire class that I could use, I'm not going to buy it, and they'll never be swordmage in my game.
This greatly 'devalues' (by about 1/5th) the upcoming Arcane Power for me.
I'm still curious to see if swordmages actually make it into arcane power... I know the stuff went to dealers saying they would be, and I love swordmages, but I feel it would be a better precedent to not do them. (more pages for the main arcane classes)
I'm still curious to see if swordmages actually make it into arcane power... I know the stuff went to dealers saying they would be, and I love swordmages, but I feel it would be a better precedent to not do them. (more pages for the main arcane classes)
I think they shoot themselves in the foot if they don't have swordmage in complte arcane...A bad precedent would then be set "They are not really core" that underminds the new setup...
GM for PGs: I think they shoot themselves in the foot if they don't have swordmage in complte arcane...A bad precedent would then be set "They are not really core" that underminds the new setup...
I agree. They wouldnt even have to rewrite the class, they just need to include Swordmage powers, paths, etc. in the Arcane Power. Same goes for Artificer.
are we sure the Invoker is divine and not arcane?
We are sure it is not Arcane. I suppose in theory it could be Primal, but that would be a long shot.
says who exactly? Is that a known fact, 2 divine 2 arcane 4 primal?
No but all arcane classes that will be released at the time of PHB2 are known through Arcane Power information that was released to retailers. So we know that the only Arcane Classes at the time that Arcane Power comes out will be Bard, Sorceror, Swordmage, Warlock, and Wizard. The 2/4 Divine/Primal class break down is just a natural assumption based on that and the power break down from PHBI.
that would make 4 arcane, 4 divine, 4 martial, and 4 primal classes (tier 1 core). I am willing to bet that every power source lacks a role, and doubles a role. (martial has 2 strikers, no controllers-arcane has 2 controllers, no defender[that's PHB classes only, swordmage is a tier 2 core class])
arcane defender, but its nto a PHB class. my speculation only includes PHB classes, and doesn't account for other classes.
basically all things are "core" but some things are more core than others (tier 1, tier 2)
it makes sense doesn't it?
Not at all. It looks like you added the qualifier as an afterthought to not be proven wrong.
I also don't know why the hell "tier 1" and "tier 2" matters. It's binary logic. It either is or is not Core. Very simple. There is no "more" and no "less."
Arcane Power
A D&D Supplement by Logan Bonner, Eytan Bernstein, and Peter Lee
Arcane Power isthe latest in a line of player-friendly supplements offering hundreds of new options for D&D Characters. This tome focuses on the arcane heroes: characters who wield strange and mysterious spells and rely on thier mastery of magic for survival.
This book provides new archetypal builds for the wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard, and swordmage classes, including new character powers, feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies.
Hardcover, 160 pages, $29.95
April 21, 2009
Not at all. It looks like you added the qualifier as an afterthought to not be proven wrong.
I also don't know why the hell "tier 1" and "tier 2" matters. It's binary logic. It either is or is not Core. Very simple. There is no "more" and no "less."
all that stuff is talking about PHB 2, the excerpt you have is talking about arcane power.
I understand that arcane power will likely have the swordmage
but I do think PHB-Only classes will stick to a formula.
but I do think PHB-Only classes will stick to a formula.
They are not concerned about grid-filling. This goes both ways. Just like they don't try to fill out and have at least one class that uses the power source per role, they're not intentionally going to leave out a possible combo for the sake of keeping the power source "incomplete."
No but all arcane classes that will be released at the time of PHB2 are known through Arcane Power information that was released to retailers. So we know that the only Arcane Classes at the time that Arcane Power comes out will be Bard, Sorceror, Swordmage, Warlock, and Wizard. .
well, that answers the question. It surely is divine then. Thank you
True, but the Artificer won't even be out by the time Arcane Power hits. Releasing extra info for a class in a setting book is OK, releasing it for a class that hasn't been released yet is another. That's not even mentioning the fact that with 6 classes in AP, I think it would be too cramped to do each class justice.
They already said the Artificer is coming out in the Eberron PH, that's that. But as for releasing info for something that isn't out yet...have you SEEN the Adventurer's Vault? They list the beasts that can be used for the Ranger beastmaster build. It was there that I found out they would give the ranger the ability to have an animal companion again. So it makes sense that if there is pertinent information for the Artificer that can go into Arcane Power it'll be in there. Probably in the form of paragon paths, equipment, and maybe even a few abilities but I'm sticking with paragon paths mainly, but don't discount the possibility.
So it makes sense that if there is pertinent information for the Artificer that can go into Arcane Power it'll be in there. Probably in the form of paragon paths, equipment, and maybe even a few abilities but I'm sticking with paragon paths mainly, but don't discount the possibility.
Except that we have already had a developer say no Artificer stuff in Arcane Power, so that won't be happening.
Artificer will be in the eberron player's guide. i think.
it will be, yes
I think that Eberron comes out a month or two after arcane power, that is the reason why the class isn't in it, I think I read that some were at lest
Indeed. Now they could have easily switched the places of Arcane Power and Divine Power in the schedule, but they said they don't want to have more then 5 classes per Power Book.
Divine Power: Contains information regarding the Avenger, Cleric, Invoker, and Paladin classes.
If this is true, then there can no longer be any doubt about which power sources belong to which classes in PH2. (Not that there was much doubt left, anyway, but still.)
Indeed. Now they could have easily switched the places of Arcane Power and Divine Power in the schedule, but they said they don't want to have more then 5 classes per Power Book.
If this is true, Players Handbook 2 would have 1 Arcane and 3 Divine classes to bring the number of Arcane and Divine classes up to 5 each.
With this assumption, the class list would probably look more like this:
Arcane (1)
-Bard (Arcane/Leader) [confirmed]
Divine (3)
-Invoker (Divine/Controler?) [semi-confirmed]
-Avenger (Divine/Striker?) [semi-confirmed]
-Warden?* (Divine/Defender?) [semi-confirmed]
Primal (4?)
-Druid (Primal/Defender?) [confirmed]
-Barbarian (Primal/Striker) [confirmed]
-Shaman (Primal/Leader?) [semi-confirmed]
-Sorcerer (Primal/Controler) [semi-confirmed?]
With us seeing a 5th Primal class before we see the Primal Power book, though I'm not sure what or where since the "power" books aren't supposed to add classes, but all the setting player guides seem to (Elementalist in Dark Sun Players Guide in 2010?).
*Warden really stands out as not making a lot of sense I suppose. I guess it could be a Primal class giving Primal 5. If all the power sources get 5 classes then I guess there has to be some overlap though, I suppose 2 defenders for Divine makes sense.
If this is true, Players Handbook 2 would have 1 Arcane and 3 Divine classes to bring the number of Arcane and Divine classes up to 5 each.
With this assumption, the class list would probably look more like this:
Arcane (1)
-Bard (Arcane/Leader) [confirmed]
Divine (3)
-Invoker (Divine/Controler?) [semi-confirmed]
-Avenger (Divine/Striker?) [semi-confirmed]
-Warden?* (Divine/Defender?) [semi-confirmed]
Primal (4?)
-Druid (Primal/Defender?) [confirmed]
-Barbarian (Primal/Striker) [confirmed]
-Shaman (Primal/Leader?) [semi-confirmed]
-Sorcerer (Primal/Controler) [semi-confirmed?]
With us seeing a 5th Primal class before we see the Primal Power book, though I'm not sure what or where since the "power" books aren't supposed to add classes, but all the setting player guides seem to (Elementalist in Dark Sun Players Guide in 2010?).
*Warden really stands out as not making a lot of sense I suppose. I guess it could be a Primal class giving Primal 5. If all the power sources get 5 classes then I guess there has to be some overlap though, I suppose 2 defenders for Divine makes sense.
Can't be, first of all because it's been confirmed for a while that the Sorcerer will be Arcane, and secondly because the Divine classes have just been spoiled: Avenger and Invoker, and NOT Warden.
Can't be, first of all because it's been confirmed for a while that the Sorcerer will be Arcane, and secondly because the Divine classes have just been spoiled: Avenger and Invoker, and NOT Warden.
Then they are skipping Sorcerer from Arcane Power? Seems a bit odd.
But, the Divine Power spoiler also shows there doesn't need to be five classes in a Power book either. So Warden looks to be Primal (as I suggested as a possibility, lacking the new spoiler information). The Sorcerer thing just seems a bit odd.
Then they are skipping Sorcerer from Arcane Power? Seems a bit odd.
But, the Divine Power spoiler also shows there doesn't need to be five classes in a Power book either. So Warden looks to be Primal (as I suggested as a possibility, lacking the new spoiler information). The Sorcerer thing just seems a bit odd.
...? But Arcane Power WILL have the Sorcerer... Who told you that it wouldn't?
It was confirmed a couple months ago already that Arcane Power would cover the following classes: Bard, Sorcerer, Swordmage, Warlock, and Wizard. The only other Arcane class confirmed is the Artificer (speculated to be from the Eberron Player's Guide), which won't be released until after Arcane Power.
...? But Arcane Power WILL have the Sorcerer... Who told you that it wouldn't?
It was confirmed a couple months ago already that Arcane Power would cover the following classes: Bard, Sorcerer, Swordmage, Warlock, and Wizard. The only other Arcane class confirmed is the Artificer (speculated to be from the Eberron Player's Guide), which won't be released until after Arcane Power.
The Sorcerer is confirmed to be an Arcane Controller, like the Wizard.
Cites, please? I would have pegged the Sorcerer as an Elemental controller.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15861146&postcount=1
...Since every class is in effect a spellcaster, we don't want to see a 99% overlap of the power lists between two classes. That mean taking the sorcerer ... and thinking hard about what it *could* be and how it could occupy the same role and power source as the wizard but be a different class. I think we've got some great ideas cooking up on that score. (Hint: It might involve some wild magery.)
AND:
A game store owner posting the description of Arcane Power from WotC's 2009 Spring catalog:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/237234-wizards-coast-spring-2009-catalog-4.html#post4405193
Arcane Power
A D&D Supplement by Logan Bonner, Eytan Bernstein, and Peter Lee
Arcane Power is the latest in a line of player-friendly supplements offering hundreds of new options for D&D Characters. This tome focuses on the arcane heroes: characters who wield strange and mysterious spells and rely on their mastery of magic for survival.
This book provides new archetypal builds for the wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard, and swordmage classes, including new character powers, feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies.
Hardcover, 160 pages, $29.95
April 21, 2009
Clearly, the 4E Sorcerer is an Arcane class. A designer says that it occupies the same role and power source as the Wizard (Arcane Controller), and WotC's Product Catalog says that it gets developed by the material in Arcane Power (which it wouldn't if it was anything other than Arcane).
...
But, the Divine Power spoiler also shows there doesn't need to be five classes in a Power book either. ...
Also, don't forget that Martial Power, released this coming week, only serves four classes: Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Warlord.
..this thread has debated in a circle 5 times already... unsubscribing.
Stomping out ignorance requires constant vigilance! :D
I'm slightly surprised, as I expected the last two classes to leak one at a time. No problem with the names, though 'Avenger' may be confused with the Angelic Avenger paragon path.
Here's what the PHB3 classes will be
Hexblade*
Ninja
Necromancer
Illusionist
Psychic Warrior*
Telepath
Samurai
Monk
*Likely to change their names
Hmm hard to say, I do see Psionics of some kind being in it, however given that Dark Sun looks to be the third campaign setting, we might see Gladiators, Defilers, Preservers and a few other Dark Sun orientated Classes and Races. Mul, Half-Giant and Thri-kreen anyone? Suspect that necromancers might be in a more death/shadow orientated book.
With a recent piece of info that was just recently revealed, it is possible that we may have names(and easy to guess power sources) for all classes and races to appear in the PHBII. Here is a quick run down of what they appear to be along with links to where the information about them came from.
Races
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
Shifter
Are you sure about the Deva? I thought the word was that it would be getting a write-up in MotP?
Are you sure about the Deva? I thought the word was that it would be getting a write-up in MotP?
Yes, but the same style as the MM, not the PHB, the full write up will be in the PHB II.
Motp will (should) have no player info in it all.
"Player info" depends a little bit upon what your DM allows players to choose. Like Steely_Dan said, MotP is rumoured to have an NPC-race write-up for Deva, which a player could use if their DM allowed. (The format means that it's not ideal for player use, however.)
Beyond this, MotP will doubtlessly contain new planar-themed rituals. (I say "doubtlessly" because nearly every 4E hardcover so far has introduced new rituals, albeit not all of them suitable for player use.) Players can use those rituals if their DM allows them to acquire them in-game.
So where is the Monk supposed to come in? I thought he was going to be in PHB 2.
Where did you hear that?
It's been known for quite a while that the PHBII would be Arcane, Divine, and Primal, and it's also been known that the Monk would occupy the Ki power source. I don't know where you heard that the Monk would make the PHBII, but you were misinformed.
So where is the Monk supposed to come in? I thought he was going to be in PHB 2.
Regretably, sticks, you'e still behind on the news. The official word about when the Monk is coming out is, "In the future." What we now know is that they almost certainly don't mean, "In PH2," nor, "In 2009."
There's lots of demand for the Monk to return, so I think we can probably expect to see it previewed in late 2009 on DDI for publication in PH3 in 2010. Until then, be patient, bro!
PS: Have you had a look at the "Advanced Player's Handbook" for 4E? It has a "Martial Artist" class in it. It's a third-party book, but the author, Ari Marmell, is a freelancer whose name is on the cover of numerous WotC books, some of which you probably own.
I suppose that PHB3 could be Psi, Shadow and Ki, not having any of the previous power sources in it at all. I doubt it, but that is the closest time frame that is possible at the moment for the Monk.
It is also almost certain that the Monk and other Ki classes will be in a PHB, not a separate book like Oriental Adventures. From what we have seen and the classes that has been hinted at, Shadow is going to be in PHB3 and Ki is looking to be a long way off.
I suppose that PHB3 could be Psi, Shadow and Ki, not having any of the previous power sources in it at all. I doubt it, but that is the closest time frame that is possible at the moment for the Monk.
You really think that if Ki and Shadow don't come at the same time, Shadow will come first? Designers have spoken a lot more about Ki so far than they have about Shadow....
You really think that if Ki and Shadow don't come at the same time, Shadow will come first? Designers have spoken a lot more about Ki so far than they have about Shadow....
Yes. Illusionist, shadow dancer (possibly having a new name), Necromancer, and even possibly a witch.
As I said, they could be coming at the same time.
You really think that if Ki and Shadow don't come at the same time, Shadow will come first? Designers have spoken a lot more about Ki so far than they have about Shadow....
And more has been stated by designers about psionics in the past three months then about either shadow or ki.:P
And more has been stated by designers about psionics in the past three months then about either shadow or ki.:P
where have designers talked about psionics?
where have designers talked about psionics?
converting your character article, comes to mind...
Yes. Illusionist, shadow dancer (possibly having a new name), Necromancer, and even possibly a witch.
Yeah, I'm still holding out for a Witch class – could be Shadow or Elemental.
where have designers talked about psionics?
Rich Baker mentioned the empath in the ask the designers thread about a month or so back(I'm guessing at the time period because I'm too lazy to look). This is the only time in past few months that any comments have been made about any unreleased power sources beyond primal.
Rich Baker mentioned the empath in the ask the designers thread about a month or so back(I'm guessing at the time period because I'm too lazy to look). This is the only time in past few months that any comments have been made about any unreleased power sources beyond primal.
In theory, they'll need whatever book contains Psionics to be ready in time to be available for Eberron.
In theory.
In theory, they'll need whatever book contains Psionics to be ready in time to be available for Eberron.
In theory.
I believe someone has said they're developing Kalashtar to have a psionic feel without needing to be off a psionic class because there won't be any when they're published.
But I couldn't tell you who or when they said that.
In theory, they'll need whatever book contains Psionics to be ready in time to be available for Eberron.
In theory.
Except that boat has already sailed. Psionics won't be available until, at best, half a year after Eberron is out.
I believe someone has said they're developing Kalashtar to have a psionic feel without needing to be off a psionic class because there won't be any when they're published.
But I couldn't tell you who or when they said that.
No what happened was during a panel someone asked how kalashtar would work in absence of psioncs. Their response was that kalashtar were designed to have a psionic feel without requiring them to take a psionic class. That neither confirms or denies that kalashtar are coming out before psionics.
I believe someone has said they're developing Kalashtar to have a psionic feel without needing to be off a psionic class because there won't be any when they're published.
Whether that is the reason or not, it's good design.
No what happened was during a panel someone asked how kalashtar would work in absence of psioncs. Their response was that kalashtar were designed to have a psionic feel without requiring them to take a psionic class. That neither confirms or denies that kalashtar are coming out before psionics.
That's it, thanks :D
Except that boat has already sailed. Psionics won't be available until, at best, half a year after Eberron is out.
I believe someone has said they're developing Kalashtar to have a psionic feel without needing to be off a psionic class because there won't be any when they're published.
Whether that is the reason or not, it's good design.
Preach on, brothers!
Races
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
Shifter
Classes
Avenger(Divine(?) Striker(?))
Barbarian(Primal Striker)
Bard(Arcane Leader)
Druid(Primal Controller(?))
Invoker(Divine(?) Controller(?))
Shaman(Primal(?) Leader)
Sorcerer(Arcane Controller)
Warden(Primal(?) Defender(?))
So the big question is...are these the confirmed Races and Classes that will be showing up in the PhB 2 or is there still speculation?
Races are definatly Confirmed.
I am looking forward to all the classes for PHB2, as for the races I could take or leave the Gnome and the Half-Orc. I think if they are given some distinct flavour they will be great, but if not (*cough* 3.5 *cough*) then it doesn't matter much to me.
I feel like the Deva deserve to be there since we already have the Tieflings, Goliaths already have some great flavour to them from Races of Stone and frankly Shifters are one of my favourite races right out of the box, though I do tend to run them a little more bestial then they are intended (at least as far as I can tell from the fiction)
warden, and shaman don't have any hard evidence yet, but they're pretty much confirmed.
Races are definatly Confirmed.
Actually, Warden is completely confirmed. Avenger and Invoker are currently just extremely likely with no confirmation(Invoker should get confirmation in a few weeks). And Deva has not been confirmed yet.
In December we'll be getting playtests for:
Druid
Invoker
Mercykiller
Adventurer's Vault 2
I'm not sure what Mercykiller and AV2 playtests will cover.
I hadn't heard about the playtest. Where was it mentioned? It would be awesome to get a chance to see one of these "totally new" classes (Invoker/Avenger)... ooo, divine controller... ooo... divine striker... ooo... :P
C
What about Shade as a race? There's quite a bit of mention of it in the FRPG.
I figured the Shade was just the local name for Shadar Kai, like Eladrin are reflavored as the old Moon and Sun Elves.
With a recent piece of info that was just recently revealed, it is possible that we may have names(and easy to guess power sources) for all classes and races to appear in the PHBII. Here is a quick run down of what they appear to be along with links to where the information about them came from.
Races
Deva
Gnome
Goliath
Half-Orc
Shifter
Classes
Avenger(Divine(?) Striker(?))
Barbarian(Primal Striker)
Bard(Arcane Leader)
Druid(Primal Controller(?))
Invoker(Divine(?) Controller(?))
Shaman(Primal(?) Leader)
Sorcerer(Arcane Controller)
Warden(Primal(?) Defender(?))
So what does everyone think? Good list? Bad list? Incorrect? They need to start giving us PHBIII clues?.....Well ok that last one isn't so much a question, as a demmand. *shrugs*
Are these links working? I am directed to things that have nothing to do with the classes or races? Unless they have been changed or altered...
Are these links working? I am directed to things that have nothing to do with the classes or races? Unless they have been changed or altered...
Can you give examples of which ones are not "working"?
The Deva one seems to be talking about an elven Ranger, unless I missed something. Invoker and Avenger go to the same place.
Check the third spoiler, which is page two of the character sheet.
Under "companions and allies"...
C
Check the third spoiler, which is page two of the character sheet.
Under "companions and allies"...
C
Okay perhaps this was my problem too. I followed the Deva and another link which sent me to a WoTC blog that appeared to have nothing to do with the Deva.
Sorry, I guess I didn't dig deep enough.
is there are a player race coming to the Manual of the Planes?
Last I checked, yes, but not a complete PH/PG style writeup. I expect just a MM style outline, so that a DM can create an NPC or a PC can use the bare minimum of that race.
Last I checked, yes, but not a complete PH/PG style writeup. I expect just a MM style outline, so that a DM can create an NPC or a PC can use the bare minimum of that race.
well, then why do we think the Deva wouldn't be there as opposed to the PHB2?
well, then why do we think the Deva wouldn't be there as opposed to the PHB2?
I believe it will be in both, a MM style right up in the MotP, and a PHB style write up in the PHB II.
Are most of us thinking that the Deva is something like the Asimar?
Yes. I think that is the idea. Though, I'm hoping the Deva look more like angels do now, and less like the Aasimar looking like normal humans.
Are most of us thinking that the Deva is something like the Asimar?
Not just thinking, know. FRPG, in the Deva's races section, said that Devas are also known as Aasimar in some regions of Faerun.
I hope "no wings".
None have been mentioned.
the designers wouldn't make a core race with wings (just like a core oversized race)
Air genasi have a 1/encounter fly, and minotaurs and bugbears (and I assume Goliaths) can wield large weapons. So wings or being oversized have precidence now and could be balanced.
Air genasi have a 1/encounter fly,
this is an encounter power, it's fair in my view. (if deva got encoutner fly, I'd feel the same way)
and minotaurs and bugbears (and I assume Goliaths) can wield large weapons.
minotaurs player race cannot wield over sized weps. There is no bugbear player race yet. I'd quote Mearls on this.. but it's already been done in this thread I'm pretty sure.
Before arguing mm races, read paragraph 2 on pg 276.
I hope Deva's have some ectoplasme like quility to there look, kinda like angels
As do I. 4e Angels are badass.
I'll throw my personal lot in with those who are hoping for some kind of look resembling the 4E angels. However, as I think of it, this might be hard to pull off, as characters are generally thought of as quite customizable, "You can be anything you like and look however you want." However, the new angel look kinda strips personal identity.
Tony D? Who?
I'll throw my personal lot in with those who are hoping for some kind of look resembling the 4E angels. However, as I think of it, this might be hard to pull off, as characters are generally thought of as quite customizable, "You can be anything you like and look however you want." However, the new angel look kinda strips personal identity.
Tony DiTerlizzi he did most of the original Planescape art, and has a very signature drawing style.
Looking at the angels, I think of them as looking different from each other, just because you don't have a nose or a mouth doesn't mean everyone will look the same. They still have eyes, and eyes are a defining characteristic and the first thing many people notice on another individual. Look at the Protoss from Starcraft, there are different characters and though the species has limited facial features, the main characters all look different from one another.
Inquisitor is a questioner.
Avenger is an instrument of retribution.
Sorry. Avenger just sounds like something that would be more enjoyable to play. I understand that there's a lot of nerd-culture mystique thats been given to the Inquisition, but it really wasn't all that exciting and was, in fact, simultaneously boring and horrific.
Personally, I like Avenger for the divine striker far better than Inquisitor, if only for the meanings of the words when stripped of all other connotation.
Inquisitor is a questioner.
Avenger is an instrument of retribution.
I agree. Avenger sounds more like a player class. Don't know why. It just sounds cooler
I agree. Avenger sounds more like a player class. Don't know why. It just sounds cooler
Totally, Inquisitor has…negative connotations.
Unfortunately, all social structures have their excesses. Even American democracy - paradoxically - had a McCarthy Era. And many non-religious Communist revolutions may have had the worst "inquisitions" so far. Not to mention, secular nationalist movements like Nazi Germany.
Anyway, "Avenger" is a bit corny - but it works.
. I just want another controller. (What? It seems unlikely that the druid will be a defender or striker, and besides, the way I flavored the elves, I need a Wis based Primal class)I can't wait for Monday the 1st
whats monday the first?
whats monday the first?
Druid Playtest article on DDI! <333
Druid Playtest article on DDI! <333
ah. well, I'll miss that
Do rebember there was a prestige class with the name "inquisitor", and nobody complained (I think). It´s like the prestige class "witch hunter" of Oriental Adventures. Is anybody offended?
(I) Do remember, but find it incredibly hard to be offended by a game full of make-believe.
Of particular note to this thread, they also have the eight sets of PHB2 cards scheduled for 2009-08-18 -- which include Avenger, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Invoker, Shaman, Sorcerer, and Warden. Looks like confirmation of the eight classes in PHB2 to me.
Of particular note to this thread, they also have the eight sets of PHB2 cards scheduled for 2009-08-18 -- which includes Avenger, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Invoker, Shaman, Sorcerer, and Warden. Looks like confirmation of the eight classes in PHB2 to me.
[/thread]
I was just looking on Amazon to see if more of next year's items were available for pre-order, and I found the listings for all the Power Cards. They have the eight sets of PHB cards scheduled 2009-03-17 and the four sets of Martial Power cards scheduled 2009-05-19.
Of particular note to this thread, they also have the eight sets of PHB2 cards scheduled for 2009-08-18 -- which include Avenger, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Invoker, Shaman, Sorcerer, and Warden. Looks like confirmation of the eight classes in PHB2 to me.
I don't suppose you have a link to the listing offhand? I believe you, but I am in a rush right now and don't have time to find it right now(and I'll forget to look it up later).
I don't suppose you have a link to the listing offhand? I believe you, but I am in a rush right now and don't have time to find it right now(and I'll forget to look it up later).
Just do a search on Amazon for "D&D Power Cards"... I just did. ooo, excited...:D
That was exactly my search term as well. The question I have is about the Display sets. For the PHB1 and PHB2 sets the display boxes have 16 decks, two each of the 8 class decks from that particular book. It would make the most sense for two completist fans to get together, buy one display box, and split them. However, the Martial Power display box supposedly has two each of the 4 class decks but costs the same as the PHB1 and PHB2 display boxes. That makes no sense. Either the Martial display has *four* of each of the Martial decks for the same total of 16, or the price should be much lower.
You'd hope, or else the MP decks contain all the PHB and MP powers for that class, making them larger decks.
Also, I think a class called "Inquisitor" comes close to Christian-bashing. The Inquisition is an ugly chapter in Christian history that has less and less to do with 21st-century forms of Christianity. Modern Christianity believes in religious freedom - including the right to not be religious - because of the spiritual priority of freedom of choice. It values the basic tenants of democracy. At best, a class called Inquisitor comes across as an unfair dig at Christians, at worst its inappropriately hostile.
Unfortunately, all social structures have their excesses. Even American democracy - paradoxically - had a McCarthy Era. And many non-religious Communist revolutions may have had the worst "inquisitions" so far. Not to mention, secular nationalist movements like Nazi Germany.
Anyway, "Avenger" is a bit corny - but it works.
While I agree with your view of the historical Inquisitor I do suggestion that many of the posters on this forum might enjoy Joe Abacrombie's First Law Series. It features a non-religious Inquisitor who is very nasty:D
=][=
I'm amazed you all can even talk about the Inquisition. Most citizens speak of it only in hushed whispers as they invoke the name of the God-Emperor of Mankind.
=][=
Burn the heretic! Crush the alien!
Burn the heretic! Crush the alien!
SUFFER NOT THE WITCH TO LIVE!
Hah. A few days ago, one of my friends posited to me, "What if your children rebel, and are organized hippies? ['cause i am most definitely neither]"
My response was, "SUFFER NOT THE HIPPY TO LIVE!"
See? Even Inquisitors can be fun.
Also, I think a class called "Inquisitor" comes close to Christian-bashing. The Inquisition is an ugly chapter in Christian history that has less and less to do with 21st-century forms of Christianity. Modern Christianity believes in religious freedom - including the right to not be religious - because of the spiritual priority of freedom of choice. It values the basic tenants of democracy. At best, a class called Inquisitor comes across as an unfair dig at Christians, at worst its inappropriately hostile.
Unfortunately, all social structures have their excesses. Even American democracy - paradoxically - had a McCarthy Era. And many non-religious Communist revolutions may have had the worst "inquisitions" so far. Not to mention, secular nationalist movements like Nazi Germany.
IDK. They've had an Inquisitor class before (Complete Divine, IIRC), and I wouldn't be surprised if it were a Paragon path in the PHB2. They also had an avenger in 3.5, which was essentially the anti-assassin.
To me it just seems like "avenger" is a more action-packed class, which seems right for the striker role. If it were a leader, or even a controller, I think Inquisitor would be fitting... but not as a striker.
Anyway, "Avenger" is a bit corny - but it works.
Hey... maybe it was changed in honor of the "4e Avengers". :P
If not, I suggest they may be the following:
Invoker: Divine Controller
Avenger: Martial Controller
Why?
Because DC and MC are the only combinations of power source and role that we have not yet encountered (from amongst our first 4 power sources).
Do we *know* the Invoker and Avenger roles and powersources?
If not, I suggest they may be the following:
Invoker: Divine Controller
Avenger: Martial Controller
Why?
Because DC and MC are the only combinations of power source and role that we have not yet encountered (from amongst our first 4 power sources).
Actually, we haven't seen Divine Striker, either... and I think it is a pretty safe speculation that the Avenger will be the Divine Striker. Serphet is right, also: there are no Martial powersource classes in PHB2.
C
Do we *know* the Invoker and Avenger roles and powersources?
If not, I suggest they may be the following:
Invoker: Divine Controller
Avenger: Martial Controller
Why?
Because DC and MC are the only combinations of power source and role that we have not yet encountered (from amongst our first 4 power sources).
We know their power sources. Both the Invoker and Avenger are listed as classes supported in Divine Power.
avenger wont be martial, It's not on teh book cover. There will be 4 of each power source, 2 more arcane, 2 more divine, and 4 primal. This we know.
...No, we don't. What we know is that there happens to be two Arcane classes, two Divine classes, and four Primal classes in PH2. This will bring the total number of classes per power source up to four for each of Martial, Divine, and Primal, and five for Arcane. Three months later, that changes to six for Arcane.
Suffice to say, we do know the power sources of every class appearing in PH2, either by direct confirmation or process of elimination. Bard and Sorcerer will be Arcane (confirmed by the catalogue description of Arcane Power), Avenger and Invoker will be Divine (confirmed by the catalogue description of Divine Power), and Barbarian, Druid, Shaman, and Warden will all be Primal (known by process of elimination).
ack.. those classes are core (FRPG and EPG) but they don't count towards the PHB addups.
...But if they're core, and they treated as core, why not count them alongside core? The answer is that it's still popular to count classes this way in order to make a ridiculous symmetry theory ("OMFG xactly 4 classws per powre Source!!1!") seem plausible, a theory which, I might I add, was never at any time supported by any statements by WotC.
(For the record, what was said was that there would be at least four classes per power source book, IIRC, and that those classes would be divided up among the roles in the most organic manner, rather than with blind adherence to symmetry.)
I don't mean to sound hostile, Serphet. It's not you I'm frustrated with, just this ridiculous idea that some folks still inexplicably maintain. No hard feelings, S?
I and many others have seen the difficulties on making Core more than the first three books, or even the main books (PHBx, DMGx, and MMx).
Though the Setting books are Core, there are players that simply won't have those books, hence the Core material within those products are not actually CORE.
Get it?
And that definitely explains why "non-core" rules elements, such as the Drow and Genasi races and the Swordmage class are receiving support in decidedly core books like Martial Power and Arcane Power, respectively.[/sarcasm]Not only do none of these rules elements, taken by themselves, bear any particular connection to the settings in which they are presented, but all rules elements are presented indiscriminately in the D&DI Compendium. (For example, there's no special status for "setting-specific" material in the Compendium, last time I checked.) This myth of "non-core" has even been directly refuted on multiple occasions by official sources.
Swordmage is core, dudes. Deal with it.
There is Core. Then there is CORE.
I and many others have seen the difficulties on making Core more than the first three books, or even the main books (PHBx, DMGx, and MMx).
Though the Setting books are Core, there are players that simply won't have those books, hence the Core material within those products are not actually CORE.
Get it?
No.
Martial power is a core supplement. Just because you don't have it doesn't make it noncore. It makes it something you don't own.
Addendum: Just because something is core doesn't obligate you to use it if you don't want to.
There is Core. Then there is CORE.
I and many others have seen the difficulties on making Core more than the first three books, or even the main books (PHBx, DMGx, and MMx).
Though the Setting books are Core, there are players that simply won't have those books, hence the Core material within those products are not actually CORE.
Get it?
This makes sense, but you can't use it as an argument against the Swordmage without using it as an argument against all of the races and classes that appear in PH2, or anywhere else other than PH1, for that matter.
4E does indeed have two tiers of "core":
[INDENT]There's "core", as in, "You need these to play the game," and refers specifically to PH1, MM1, and DMG1;
And then there's "core", as in, "Everything else," and refers to all rules elements published by Wizards of the Coast which are directly compatible with the rules presented in PH1, MM1,and DMG1.[/INDENT]
Notice how neither definition of "core" makes a distinction between rules elements based upon the setting of the book those rules elements happened to appear in. Thus, in 4E, Swordmage can be considered no more or no less core than the Druid, Bard, Barbarian, Sorcerer, or Monk is.
Get it?
DDi is not Core, but is instead material that is optional, and of course has stuff that can be used with the Core rules.
I think it would be awesome to have that... I loved Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved and its take on Large-sized PCs and would like to have such an option available in 4e.
Thoughts? comments?
C
PS. I think the more-or-less core-ness of stuff published by WotC is ultimately irrelevant. People will play with whatever they like (heck, as if it weren't enough with all the options we get from these fine people, we all like to homebrew stuff --- that's what's great about this game and, with all due respect, I don't see why that's such a heated issue...)
I think the first large race will be the Minotaur.
I believe he will have large base abilities but still be on the larger side within the medium sized spectrum. There are a couple of minis that did this sort of thing.
I think the first large race will be the Minotaur.
...There already is a Minotaur PC race. It ain't Large.
...There already is a Minotaur PC race. It ain't Large.
There is an MM like write up, I think, that I have not seen. (It's on DDi, right?)
I had thought it could be large, but wasn't sure
What Wizards wanted to do was to make all the PHB/DMG/MMs the main CORE, and then the other books a Core part but not needed for the average player.
DDi is not Core, but is instead material that is optional, and of course has stuff that can be used with the Core rules.
Uh, no. DDI is just as core as the other books. Well, the end of the month compiled articles are at least.
There is an MM like write up, I think, that I have not seen. (It's on DDi, right?)
I had thought it could be large, but wasn't sure
Yes, the Minotaur was in last month's Dragon. It is Medium, has no Oversized (and Mearls has said that no other PC race, ie Bugbear, will either), and it is Core.
Yes, the Minotaur was in last month's Dragon. It is Medium, has no Oversized (and Mearls has said that no other PC race, ie Bugbear, will either), and it is Core.
And if PC races aren't getting Oversized, I don't think there's a snowball's chance that there'll be a large PC race.
The least we can do to get on the same page is make an agreement of what we mean when we say CORE. It's what I've called Tier 1 core, the PHB 1 MM and DMG
now I like to tag PHB2 mm2 and DMG 2 as Tier one (my personal opinion), I can agree that things like phb2 are actually tier 2, leaving things like the campaign settings tier 3.
I also acknowledge that the power series goes into detail on genasi, drow, and etc. in vigorous detail. They don't just get brief mention, they are well done.
4th edition does everything different, I acknowledge this. So we'll see a precedent with phb 2. At this moment, until we see more spoilers, we can determine no more.
My idea of the balanced 4 class in 4 sources is broken now by the way. It would have required the druid to be a defender to work out perfectly. My theory behind the class selection was that we'd end up with 4 of each class type, from 3 different power sources. This would make a balance amongst the classes, and make things more laid out for each role. (see the effects of only having 1 controller until a few days ago).
As for DRA/DUN, they are the least core of all. I think we can agree on this. Just because I say something is less core doesn't mean I'm insulting it. So don't think I'm insulting the amazing work done by DRA, but it's core is on a different level. (IMO, perhaps I should tag everything with this?)
and by the way, I acknowledge the no hostility, I respect that and hope my post comes of just as friendly.
to end this post, read up above, and let's decide what we mean when we say CORE (I think my tier system works well, weather you put the PHB 2 and campaign settings on a different level is up to you, explain why.)
to end this post, read up above, and let's decide what we mean when we say CORE (I think my tier system works well, weather you put the PHB 2 and campaign settings on a different level is up to you, explain why.)
Everything that isn't tied directly to a campaign setting is Core, because that's what the Wizards reps defined Core as when they released 4e.
Everything that isn't tied directly to a campaign setting is Core, because that's what the Wizards reps defined Core as when they released 4e.
So you think that for the rules system, there is 1 core, and no distinction between core sources?
So you think that for the rules system, there is 1 core, and no distinction between core sources?
Basically. Being Core doesn't give it any kind of special treatment or obligation to include; you can ban or alter core as much as non-core as you need to fit your campaign. The opposite of core is 'setting specific'.
I mean core (no tier) as a way of expressing a base framework of rules introduced in the PHB. Then there are expansion packs to that framework. I like to emphasize a difference between "grid filling" and balancing the playing field. I feel the future PHB's do more to balance the playing field, where as classes released in setting books are released more for fan service to a given setting (hence I don't put them on the same level). I do not deny them core status, I just place them on a lower level.
- Base -- PHB 1, DMG 1 & MM 1 ONLY
- Staple -- All PHBs, DMGs & MMs ONLY
- Surplus -- All PHB's, DMG's and MMs plus the ____ Power series & Adventurer's Vault series
Why must there not be standard terms to describe the things we're talking about? I suggest the following terms:
- Base -- PHB 1, DMG 1 & MM 1 ONLY
- Staple -- All PHBs, DMGs & MMs ONLY
- Surplus -- All PHB's, DMG's and MMs plus the ____ Power series & Adventurer's Vault series
thats basically what I've proposed to do in my last 2-3 posts here...
To recap: There are exactly two tiers of "core". One is PH1, MM1, and DMG1, and the other is everything else released by WotC for 4E.
That's all there is to it.
Why must there not be standard terms to describe the things we're talking about? I suggest the following terms:
- Base -- PHB 1, DMG 1 & MM 1 ONLY
- Staple -- All PHBs, DMGs & MMs ONLY
- Surplus -- All PHB's, DMG's and MMs plus the ____ Power series & Adventurer's Vault series
I find your division highly arbitrary, Elf. Some folks won't understand why Adventurer's Vault is "Surplus" instead of "Staple", and other won't get why Martial Power, which develops PH1, is less legitimate than PH2.
Additionally, where do books such as Draconomicon, Open Grave, or Manual of the Planes fit? (MotP, for example, includes several Paragon Paths, and each book contains magic items and rituals which could be used by PCs.)
And of course, where do books like the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide fit? This book presents two new races, a new class, a new build for a PH1 class, numerous Paragon Paths, an Epic Destiny, and numerous rituals. Yes, it's all from this campaign setting book, but it's also easily poach-able for any other setting, including a generic or homebrew campaign.
Why draw your lines where you did, when there's an official stance?
Where are my freaking psionics, already? I can't D&D it up properly knowin that psychics aren't made yet...
Level 1: PHB, DMG, MM 1
Level 2: Everything 1st Party except setting specific and DDi material
Level 3: Everything 1st Party.
Yes, it has been confirned that there will be Swordmage (level 3) builds in Arcane power (level 2), but that's alright. You don't need to use it.
It also helps them 'sell' DDI subscriptions if they officially declare that the content in there is just as 'core' and supported as the printed books. As already seen there is DDI material that expands on printed material and it gives them a cost-effecient method of putting out new material without bloating the books or forcing 3-4 books to be printed every month just to give the playerbase the content it wants.
Honestly they should of just dropped the whole 'core' term from their official statements and printed material. Let all WotC published (print or online) material be 'standard' or 'official' material and let 3rd party stuff be 'non standard' and 'unofficial'. In every edition people have argued over what is 'core' and what isn't because 'core' is subjective. There is 'base' but with a pnp-rpg even base is subjective because you can have alternate and optional rules that can greatly alter the 'base' rules. Even the PHB1 for 4e has 3 or so methods of generating ability scores.
On the one hand, 'Core' is a 'product brand', and is just the name for the default points-of-light campaign setting. Here 'Core' constrasts the other campaign setting 'brands': Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Ravenloft, etc. Also 'Miniatures'.
On the other hand, 'Core' is alternatively a 'product type', in which case it refers only to the first volume of the PH, DMG, MM, plus the gaming dice. Here it contrasts the other 'product types': 'Accessories', 'Adventures', or 'Novels'.
WotC uses the word 'core' in two contradictory ways - trying to have its cake and eat too.
On the one hand, 'Core' is a 'product brand', and is just the name for the default points-of-light campaign setting. Here 'Core' constrasts the other campaign setting 'brands': Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Ravenloft, etc. Also 'Miniatures'.
On the other hand, 'Core' is alternatively a 'product type', in which case it refers only to the first volume of the PH, DMG, MM, plus the gaming dice. Here it contrasts the other 'product types': 'Accessories', 'Adventures', or 'Novels'.
You're right, WotC needs to stop using the word "core", although they do need to categorize their products. This is part of the reason I've advocated the use of "base" or "basic" (despite its historical roots in D&D) to refer to the PH1, DMG1, and MM1. I think Wizards ought to categorize those three, and products that include them, as "Base-set" D&D. All additional products are categorized as "D&D Accessories", with the exceptions of "D&D Adventures", whose format is more about integrating existing rules elements into a story rather than presenting new ones, and "D&D Novels" which don't present rules elements at all, and which hardly anyone ever considered "core" anyway.
The reason is, its just as appropriate for the DM to include or exclude material in the PH1, as any other volume of the PHs.
For example, the DM may wish to exclude all Martial classes for a high-magic 'Harry Potter' campaign setting, or exclude all Arcane classes for a low-magic 'Lord-of-the-Rings' campaign setting.
Moreover, most players feel strongly the Druid, Bard, Gnome, Half-Orc, etc. belong in 'core'. A significant number of players feel strongly the Psi power source belongs in 'core' (tho most agree it shouldnt have sci-fi flavor but emphasize the flavor of 'enchantments', 'illusions', 'force' and 'personal-source' magic). Similarly, many players feel Monk is 'core' too (hence possibly the Ki power source). And so on.
Its all equally important. DMs should *pick-and-choose* which classes in the PHs to emphasize or deemphasize in their own games.
By contrast, the Power books (Martial Power, Arcane Power, Divine Power, etc.) seem designed to be 'splat books'. Perhaps they arent as authoritative? Same with the Adventures Vault.
I could live with calling the first volume of the PH, MM, and DMG the 'Introductory Rules Product' as a product type (instead of the current 'Core Rules Product').
The term 'Introductory' implies, all D&D players should start with the first volume, but also, the other volumes comprise the rest of the rules and are equally authoritative.
I find your division highly arbitrary, Elf. Some folks won't understand why Adventurer's Vault is "Surplus" instead of "Staple", and other won't get why Martial Power, which develops PH1, is less legitimate than PH2.
Additionally, where do books such as Draconomicon, Open Grave, or Manual of the Planes fit? (MotP, for example, includes several Paragon Paths, and each book contains magic items and rituals which could be used by PCs.)
And of course, where do books like the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide fit? This book presents two new races, a new class, a new build for a PH1 class, numerous Paragon Paths, an Epic Destiny, and numerous rituals. Yes, it's all from this campaign setting book, but it's also easily poach-able for any other setting, including a generic or homebrew campaign.
Why draw your lines where you did, when there's an official stance?
This is easy to answer/ To the new player the basic game is what I included under the Basic header, i.e. PHB 1, DMG 1 & MM1.
With this in mind the new player would consider all the PHB's, DMG's and MM's more basic than all other books. This categoru is called Staple because it has everything a staple (i.e. Iconic) game should have in terms of classes, races etc.
The final category is called Surplus because it includes things a new player would consider surplus for a character, which would (currently) be the _____ Power Series and the Adventurer's Vault Series.
Books like the Dracanomicon, Open Grave & Manual of the Planes would not be included under a header because they are more DM oriented Books that a DM can choose to allow or disallow based on his campaign. The same goes for DDI artciles, though I could see them going under Surplus if that was what everyone wanted.
My goal here was to look at the game from the perspective of a new player and develop 3 tiers for everyone's ease of use. These are not meant to be all encompassing terms, simply ones that people will often use to describe the Heart of their games. People are meant to describe their game as "My DM allows Surplus + the MoP" or "We allow Basic + DDI & Dracanomicon + the Mini's Power Cards."
PS, actually, I really like the term 'Starter' for PH1, MM1, DMG1, plus dice. Its perfect.
ElE, instead of the 'product type' being called 'Basic', could you live with it being called 'Intro' or 'Starter'?
That could definitely work as well. Basic does have connotations I think the system would like to avoid... I think either Starter or Intro would be an acceptable alternative.
Starter - PHB, DMG & MM 1 ONLY
Staple: All PHB's DMG's & MM's ONLY
Surplus: All PHB's DMG's & MM's + _____ Power series & Adventurer's Vault Series
EDIT: I just realized, this system could be called the 3 S's system :P
P.S. There are only two level:
Required: PHBI
Core: Everything else
If you guys want to argue about what is core and what isn't, that is perfectly fine. But could you move it to a different topic?
Yes please. Personally I don't care about the relative "official core-ness" of stuff, and it has become slightly frustrating to come back to the thread and see this is what people are talking about instead of... well, the topic of this thread.
C
Classes:
B - Barbarian (Primal Striker)
B - Bard (Arcane Leader)
S - Sorcerer (Arcane Striker) [never saw that coming]
I - Invoker (divine controller)
W - Warder (primal defender)
D - Druid (primal controller)
Others, I don't know if have been "confirmed" but this is what I have percieved:
T - Templar (divine striker or defender)
S - Shaman or Spirit Shaman (primal leader)
Races:
G - Goliath
G - Gnome
H - Half-orc
D - Deva
S - Shifter
Correct me if I am wrong.
This is why I don't put too much stock in the "CONFIRMED" stuff that people post. Sorcerers weren't ever confirmed to be an Arcane Controller. They were just assumed to be.
I believe either races and classes indicated it, or a dev hinted.
also... "Templar" ????
This is why I don't put too much stock in the "CONFIRMED" stuff that people post. Sorcerers weren't ever confirmed to be an Arcane Controller. They were just assumed to be.
There have been conversations about the degrees of "confirmed". Suffice to say, there was strong evidence (albeit, from early in the design process) that the Sorcerer would be a Controller; it was only the most recent podcast which spoiled the fact that those plans had changed as the class had gone through development. In fact, it's pretty clear from the Sorcerer preview that this class probably was originally a Controller, based on the nature of its powers.
It's really easy to say, "I told you so," when looking at these things after the fact. (We've all done it.) That doesn't change the fact that it was an informed bet at the time.
I concur. So to get back on topic. This is what "seems" to be confirmed.
Classes:
B - Barbarian (Primal Striker)
B - Bard (Arcane Leader)
S - Sorcerer (Arcane Striker) [never saw that coming]
I - Invoker (divine controller)
W - Warder (primal defender)
D - Druid (primal controller)
Others, I don't know if have been "confirmed" but this is what I have percieved:
T - Templar (divine striker or defender)
S - Shaman or Spirit Shaman (primal leader)
Races:
G - Goliath
G - Gnome
H - Half-orc
D - Deva
S - Shifter
Correct me if I am wrong.
The only wrong stuff on this list, as current speculation goes, I've highlighted in red above.
- The 'T' was discounted long ago; the current favorite for the final PH2 class is called "Avenger". It's been confirmed as a Divine class, and it's receiving publication sometime prior to this summer -- presumably in PH2 -- which we know because it's being supported by Divine Power. Everything else is speculation. (Lots of bets are on Divine Striker.)
- It's definitely "Shaman" for the class name. 4E doesn't like multi-word class names, and the editorial calendar says we're getting a three level preview of the "Shaman" class this coming Monday on D&DI. It's very possible, likely even, that one of the primary Shaman builds could be called "Spirit Shaman", however.
So, overall, you had pretty good guesses!(As the last person I responded to pointed out, it's still early enough for some "confirmed" things to be "changed" anyway, so you may turn out to be more or less completely correct.)
Edit, PS: Do you own Open Grave, YukonHorror? Because I think you just performed the Necrothread ritual.
The best bet though based on current 'leaks' is that Avenger is the last Divine class and it will be a striker due to Divine Power saying it includes info for Avengers, and a Character Builder character sheet screenshot that listed a Deva Avenger as a fellow PC. As for the striker part they talked about a 'cloth wearing striker-y cleric' and the Invoker isn't that, at least not totally.
As for races I think they've all been completely confirmed at this point as have the other classes including source and role.
As for the striker part they talked about a 'cloth wearing striker-y cleric' and the Invoker isn't that, at least not totally.
Really? As I recall the developers talked about a cloth wearing more spell-caster like divine class. Invoker are definitely the later and those that choose intelligence are quite capable of being lightly armored.
Last I heard PHB2 was supposed to have Barbarian + a different kind of striker (suggested to also two-handed weapons). Since that was from around the same time that sorcerer was still being said to be a controller and after the druid was confirmed to be no longer a hybrid, I choose assume that the other strike is indeed the avenger. Further more, we already have 5 light-armor strikers, so I personally would like to see avengers wear heavy armor. That would certainly make them into a rather different kind of striker.
Hopefully they get Scale Armor Proficiency and aren't required to fight with two-handed weapons, cause damn it, I want to play an Avenger with a Throwing Shield. ;)
LOL
Called Cap Tainam Erica?
Hopefully they get Scale Armor Proficiency and aren't required to fight with two-handed weapons, cause damn it, I want to play an Avenger with a Throwing Shield. ;)
Agreed. I don't want to see any of their powers require two-handed weapons, though I'd be fine if they had some powers that are better with two-handers. Mostly though I feel that not giving them shield proficiency as a default is enough to make them primarily two-handed strikers. No need to mechanically shackle them to such weapons.
This is why I don't put too much stock in the "CONFIRMED" stuff that people post. Sorcerers weren't ever confirmed to be an Arcane Controller. They were just assumed to be.
They were said (by WotC personnel) to have the same power source and role as Wizards and that they were being worked on to be different to Wizards despite this.
Maybe the avenger isn't a PHII class. Maybe it is for a different book.
Maybe the templar is not, but WOTC said there would be a T. They have already corrected themselves on the letters. So I would think this would have been corrected too, unless the change is more recent.
Maybe the avenger isn't a PHII class. Maybe it is for a different book.
It's possible, but not very likely anymore. Avenger has to come out sometime prior to Divine Power (July 2009, IIRC), because it's getting support there. The only hardcover book that will have a class in it between now and then, other than PH2, will be the Eberron Player's Guide, which we already know will contain the Artificer. Of course, it's possible that EPG could have two classes, it's just not especially likely.
Furthermore, there's supposed to be eight new classes in PH2. If the final, unrevealed one isn't the Avenger (which we already know to be Divine), then it will have to be a Primal class, because Primal Power is the only power source book whose description we haven't seen yet. At this point, based on the information we have, it's a lot more likely that the Avenger is in PH2 than somewhere else.
Finally, as for the "T" thing, those spoilers were released last June, when everything was still very early in development. It's natural that things have changed in the past eight months, and it looks like one of those changes was from a "T" to an "A".
Finally, as for the "T" thing, those spoilers were released last June, when everything was still very early in development. It's natural that things have changed in the past eight months, and it looks like one of those changes was from a "T" to an "A".
And I must say I approve. While I do enjoy both "T" and "A", when the chips are down I'm definitely an "A" man. :P
Maybe the templar is not, but WOTC said there would be a T. They have already corrected themselves on the letters. So I would think this would have been corrected too, unless the change is more recent.
Maybe the avenger isn't a PHII class. Maybe it is for a different book.
Player's Handbook 2 - Avenger Power Cards: A 4th Edition D&D AccessoryAnd I must say I approve. While I do enjoy both "T" and "A", when the chips are down I'm definitely an "A" man. :P
lol Good answer.
The twitch really sent this one out of the park.