An Essentials Meeting – with Mike Mearls & Rich Baker!
Basically the interview looks more like a soapbox for the same talking points we've seen for the past two months; there's nothing new here.
I appreciate the effort, but it doesn't seem like you asked any tough questions that really pertain to the "Does 4eE mean the end of 4eO?" issue, Such as "Will pre-essentials classes continue to recieve support, in the form of dragon articles?" and "Will any more books in the pre-essential format be released after you begin printing essentials?" and "Will RPGA events ban pre-essentials material?"
Basically the interview looks more like a soapbox for the same talking points we've seen for the past two months; there's nothing new here.
WotC already answered the two bolded questions; they said "yes", both on forums and on their website. Popular reaction was that WotC isn't an official source enough, and anyways they were lying.
There's no way to shut down the discussion, really. Tomorrow the Essentials will be out and then we may get a PHB4 that looks more like the PHB1 than the PHB3 and people will still claim 4e is dead and we're playing 4.5.
Honestly, there's no disproving conspiracy theories, because they exist only in the minds of those who want to believe them.
"Does 4eE mean the end of 4eO?"
No. They'll continue publishing as normal after the essentials are done. Hero's of Shadows will contain new "non-essential's" classes, including the necro
. Their naming conventioin seems to have changed though, calling it Hero's of Shadows instead of PHB4. But they could of called PHB3 Hero's of Psionics."Will RPGA events ban pre-essentials material?"
They've said several times that a figher and slayer can both be played side by side. However, darksun did actually ban divine characters, so by strict reading (and strict reading only), the answer is yes, an RPGA event banned (some) pre-essentals material (as well as essentials material).
No. They'll continue publishing as normal after the essentials are done. Hero's of Shadows will contain new "non-essential's" classes, including the necro
Well that depends on your definition of an essentials class. They've stated that all new classes will have the class features gains above level 1, which to me is the definition of an essentials class.
They'll continue publishing as normal after the essentials are done. Hero's of Shadows will contain new "non-essential's" classes, including the necro
Oh, I hate to say this, because it might cause you to be dissapointed and stop looking forward to the product that I am most excited about for all of 2011, but...
Heroes of Shadow is going to be a 6x9 paperback, like the essentials books. The classes in it are almost certainly going to have their own advancement tables and gain class features as they level, like the essentials classes. It remains to be seen whether their advancement table will be pretty much the same as the 4.0 standard, as with the mage and battle cleric, or dramatically different, as with the slayer and thief. Given that the book size and shape is more similar to the essential's 'Heroes of' books then the pre-e PHBs, the layout and presentation will probably be closer to the essentials books as well.
Are we getting new official 4e shadow classes, including the necromancer? Yes! Are we getting new shadow themed races, and shadow themed options for other existing characters? Yes! Will it be awesome? Yes!
But is it a book in the pre-essentials format, in book layout or content style? No. No it isn't. This book looks to be very much in line with the essentials 'heroes of' style format.
Not that they aren't doing any books in the pre-e style, they are, just not this one. Classes though, get used to the essentials style of increased fluff integration into the mechanics, class features gained throughout levels, and advancement trees tailored to the individual mechanics and thematic style of the class itself. That's what e-style classes means, and that's what future classes are going to be.
Are we getting new official 4e shadow classes, including the necromancer? Yes! Are we getting new shadow themed races, and shadow themed options for other existing characters? Yes! Will it be awesome? Yes!
Exactly. I don't care what format it comes in (hardcover, softcover, pdf, brain transplant, though less expensive is better). I care that it's a cool class that's fun to play, and i get to send zombies at my enemies (i really have trouble imagining it being anything other then a controller, probably shaman style). And really since Mike Merls took over, the whole game seems to be getting better balance and alot of the 4e complaints are beign taken care of (like combat being slow -> MM3 FTW).
As long as they continue to support existing builds, even if it is only with Dragon material, I will be happy.
In many cases though, the question begs to be asked, "How much more support does this build actually need?" Most of these builds are ancient history, and have support pouring out of their butthole already.
As long as they continue to support existing builds, even if it is only with Dragon material, I will be happy.
I'm puzzled by this plea too; support for old builds should stop at some point. How many hundreds powers per class do we need?
As long as they continue to support existing builds, even if it is only with Dragon material, I will be happy.
I'm puzzled by this plea too; support for old builds should stop at some point. How many hundreds powers per class do we need?
Sure, but there are pre-essentials classes that still have relatively little. I.e. pretty much everything in the PHB3.
As long as they continue to support existing builds, even if it is only with Dragon material, I will be happy.
I'm puzzled by this plea too; support for old builds should stop at some point. How many hundreds powers per class do we need?
Sure, but there are pre-essentials classes that still have relatively little. I.e. pretty much everything in the PHB3.
Psionic power just came out, so they've got a big boost for that.
Though i do agree, that i'd be fine if there was never another fighter power. They've got like 20 powers per level. I'd rather see a Shadow Power.
Hmm... i should start a thread on how many powers are enough.
And then there's the archer warlord, where yes, he has like 20 powers to choose from every level, but only 1-2 of those at most are even ranged weapon.
I appreciate the effort, but it doesn't seem like you asked any tough questions that really pertain to the "Does 4eE mean the end of 4eO?" issue, Such as "Will pre-essentials classes continue to recieve support, in the form of dragon articles?" and "Will any more books in the pre-essential format be released after you begin printing essentials?" and "Will RPGA events ban pre-essentials material?"
Basically the interview looks more like a soapbox for the same talking points we've seen for the past two months; there's nothing new here.
Well as VisanidethDM points out, the first two questions are Yes, and Yes, which they have already mentioned in several different posts.
As to whether RPGA events will ban pre-essentials materials, I think we can let common sense prevail here and say NO... it would be ridiculous to ban 4E Traditional material from RPGA events, when the whole goal of Essentials is to get new Players into the game, and then get them up to the point where they are off buying the "traditional" 4E products.
Bill Slavicsek made it a point during the D&D Preview and Q&A to state that Essentials is just an "on-ramp" to the game - it's 10 products useful for beginning Players to get them on the D&D roadway.
The fact that a little over half the Essentials products will be useful to advanced Players already playing D&D 4E is just shows some awesome product development. The tiles sets, rules compendium, new deluxe DM screen, and monster vault are definitely all on my "to buy" list.
There are also newer builds from power books that lack support too, such as the whirling barbarian (i know the barbarian's not exactly 'weak' but it hasn't gotten alot of options either).
And then there's the archer warlord, where yes, he has like 20 powers to choose from every level, but only 1-2 of those at most are even ranged weapon.
This. Do we need more sword & board fighter powers? No not really. More feats for taclords? Again, not really. But individual builds - the brawler fighter, the archer warlord, the whirling barbarian, really could stand to get a bit more support, even if the base classes they're a part of have enough, overall, already.
Likewise, strength clerics and PHB paladins, also could use a bit more, imo, let alone seekers, runepriests, and some of the PHBII classes, yeah there's room for support. Also, if new races are introduced, I'd like to see race/class feats for some of the existing classes that fit them thematically.
Most of this could be done via dragon, but I do still think there's content wanting to be published for existing classes.
There are also newer builds from power books that lack support too, such as the whirling barbarian (i know the barbarian's not exactly 'weak' but it hasn't gotten alot of options either).
And then there's the archer warlord, where yes, he has like 20 powers to choose from every level, but only 1-2 of those at most are even ranged weapon.
This. Do we need more sword & board fighter powers? No not really. More feats for taclords? Again, not really. But individual builds - the brawler fighter, the archer warlord, the whirling barbarian, really could stand to get a bit more support, even if the base classes they're a part of have enough, overall, already.
Likewise, strength clerics and PHB paladins, also could use a bit more, imo, let alone seekers, runepriests, and some of the PHBII classes, yeah there's room for support. Also, if new races are introduced, I'd like to see race/class feats for some of the existing classes that fit them thematically.
Most of this could be done via dragon, but I do still think there's content wanting to be published for existing classes.
One thing we need to ask ourselves is: do those products sell?
They're targeted at players. My shop owning friend tells me that his D&D income almost exclusively comes from DMs. DMs buy tons of books. Most players are content with a few. I am a DM, I also buy "XXX Power" splatbooks, but most of the players I play with have the PHB and XXX Power... and most people playing martial classes didn't buy Martial Power 2 and go for a "can I borrow yours?" route.
Add the character builder: you're subscribed, you get the crunch anyways. Yes, it's harder to access on the go, but would most people dish 25 dollars for something they already have?
And look at it from WotC's perspective: sure, they can push out 4-5 25 dollars books a year, covering 4-5 power sources. Assuming every group has 1 player per power source, they sell 5 books per group, and net some 130 dollars. OR, they can stick upgrades to Dragon and the Character Builder, and as long as a single guy has Insider, they made the same money, saved a ton of money on printing and distributing and releasing, and as soon as 2 or 3 guys have Insider, they're getting an even bigger advantage.
Naturally, having people subscribing to Insider AND having books sold would be ideal; however, if the books are selling poorly, switching character support to Dragon and Insider and making subscriptions much more appealing may become a more favourable approach.
As long as they continue to support existing builds, even if it is only with Dragon material, I will be happy.
In many cases though, the question begs to be asked, "How much more support does this build actually need?" Most of these builds are ancient history, and have support pouring out of their butthole already.
It depends on how rampant power inflation gets. A class that is unsuported through a period of rapid power inflation will fall behind, becoming, sub-optimal, sub-par, 'wussy,' whatever you want to call it. We haven't heard a lot of details, but the October Update will include making Epic Feats available at Heroic level and giving Wizard encounter powers miss & effects lines like dailies. The Thief gets sneak attack per /turn/ instead of per round, and the Knight's Battle Gaurdian is strictly superior to the Fighter's Combat Challenge.
So I'm guessing there'll be some power inflation coming our way.
So I'm guessing there'll be some power inflation coming our way.
To be fair, I think power inflation in this edition is being handled pretty well. More often than not, classes get stronger due to the raw number of new options available, not because recent stuff is more powerful. In fact, the opposite is true - the most potent PC options in the game are probably in the PHB1 (i.e. ranger and fighter, and just about any paragon path) and AV1.
And then there's all that errata, of course, which works wonders whenever any actual power inflation does appear...
To be fair, I think power inflation in this edition is being handled pretty well. More often than not, classes get stronger due to the raw number of new options available, not because recent stuff is more powerful. In fact, the opposite is true - the most potent PC options in the game are probably in the PHB1 (i.e. ranger and fighter, and just about any paragon path) and AV1.
And then there's all that errata, of course, which works wonders whenever any actual power inflation does appear...
agreed
Player's Handbook: champions of the heroic tier
Hero builder's handbook
and there are 2 supplement in 2011 that looks targetted in contents and format to core players
Player's Handbook: champions of the heroic tier
Hero builder's handbook
That second has an intriguing sound to it...