I believe the next fantasy campaign setting might be derived from the following categories:
A pre-existing campaign setting that has been touched on already in 4e:
Planescape: touched on via the Sigil entry in DMG2
Ravenloft: to be touched on via the soon to be released boardgame. (Although this probably is not considered 4e, it can be considered recent?) (Ravenloft might be a sub-setting?)
The 4e core setting: Nentir Vale/Points of Light could get the full campaign treatment?
Greyhawk: might be considered to have been touched on via the 4e core deities?
A campaign setting from a previous edition:
Birthright, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Mystara, Oriental Adventures (OA/Rokugan may not be considered a campaign setting?)
A sub-setting from an existing or previous campaign setting:
such as Xendrik, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, Hollow World etc, etc.
Or something totally new and original designed just for 4e, ala Eberron for 3x.
Myself, I think I would like to see something totally new and original for 4e, but there are other settings I am interested in such as Ravenloft, Planescape and Spelljammer.
As far as what I predict: I think the next campaign setting might be something that has already been touched upon in 4e.
(Please forgive me in advance for any errors I have made regarding campaign lists and categorization. I am sure there are other potential campaign categories as well as campaign settings I have not listed)
Ravenloft, spelljammer and planescape have been folded into the core. So I don't think they will be 4e settings. We've gotten some domains of dread in dragon magazines, so ravenloft seems to be completely supported by the magazines. Planescape is basically Sigil, as the planar hub. Using the plane below, the plane above and all the other books like the feywild and shadowfell books we will be getting, planescape flavored adventures are completely possible.
Spelljammer is little more than a few magic items, so far. I'm hoping we will get more spelljammer love in the future. As for what settings might be next, A lot of people want a brand new setting and a lot of people want an island setting. As for older settings getting the 4e treatment, I'm rooting for dragonlance and mystara.
As for a new setting, I really, REALLY, want wotc to take ALL of the points of light content and put it into a fully fleshed out campaign setting. I want a continental map with all the different nations, locations and everything else.
Or something totally new and original designed just for 4e, ala Eberron for 3x.
It should be this.
It is time for something new.
Ravenloft, spelljammer and planescape have been folded into the core. So I don't think they will be 4e settings. We've gotten some domains of dread in dragon magazines, so ravenloft seems to be completely supported by the magazines. Planescape is basically Sigil, as the planar hub. Using the plane below, the plane above and all the other books like the feywild and shadowfell books we will be getting, planescape flavored adventures are completely possible.
I should have realized that. Perhaps these settings might still get an expanded treatment in the form of campaign/player books, monster manuals or adventures?
So, I'm guessing the next campaign setting would be another genre that we haven't gotten yet. So this would leave settings such as Greyhawk and Dragonlance as being pipedreams since they are both high fantasy and thus is already covered by Forgotten Realms.
Seriously though, there have been hints that it's something new, possibly one of the other contest winners from the event that produced Eberron.
If it were up to me though, it would be Birthright, or an Al-Qadim completely divorced from Forgotten Realms.
But honestly, I've been happy with everything so far (even FR:Spellpocalypse Edition
). Whatever they announce, I'll probably be interested in it.Ravenloft, spelljammer and planescape have been folded into the core. So I don't think they will be 4e settings. We've gotten some domains of dread in dragon magazines, so ravenloft seems to be completely supported by the magazines. Planescape is basically Sigil, as the planar hub. Using the plane below, the plane above and all the other books like the feywild and shadowfell books we will be getting, planescape flavored adventures are completely possible.
I should have realized that. Perhaps these settings might still get an expanded treatment in the form of campaign/player books, monster manuals or adventures?
I doubt it, but I'd be happy if we did. I'd really enjoy more content for those three settings. Especially planescape.
I'd also love a Magipunk and or Steam Punk based setting.
The thing is, though they already told us. Back when they were dropping "hints" of Darksun in an interview they talked oh so briefly about a "water world" that they were working on that would be coming out in the forseeable future. My guess?
Water World is next. So I'm expecting a High Seas type world.
I don't mean to crap on any of those setting; I'd like several of them very much, judging from what little I know about them. I'd particularly like to see Al-Qadim. But there seem to be real problems with republishing most of the old campaign settings. I hold out the most hope for Spelljammer; it's a bit different from what we've seen so far, it has a distinct style without being hyper focused, and it's been mentioned before. How it interacts with the core cosmology might be a problem; the blip about that in the Manual of the Planes didn't really help. A brand new setting sounds plausible too.
The thing is, though they already told us. Back when they were dropping "hints" of Darksun in an interview they talked oh so briefly about a "water world" that they were working on that would be coming out in the forseeable future. My guess?
Water World is next. So I'm expecting a High Seas type world.
I don't suppose you recall which interview that was do you? I would love to be able to link to it whenever these debates come up because that certainly would support my position.
If WoTC has great success with their essentials line and brings in new players and more money, then we'll see a brand new campaign setting. Probably the water world mentioned above, or a contest entry like Eberron.
If WoTC continues to have a constant number of players, or if their sales drop off, then Hasbro will direct them to blow the dust off old content and freshen it up. A totally new campaign would take a lot more staff (and therefore more investment) than a recycled one. My money would be on Greyhawk or Dragonlance because of the volume of old material that could be used. The Points of Light world could easily be rolled into Greyhawk.
If an older setting is revived, I think they would advance the timeline by a hundred or a thousand years as a way of making it feel new again to older players. Change the geography just enough (earth changing events) to make sure everyone needs the new maps.
Either way, I'll most likely buy it
As a DM, I can never have too many ideas.A new version of Spelljammer and/or Planescape would be awesome. I particularly like the idea of a new Spelljammer.
Rich Burlew's setting search entry is another possibility.
Then there's that other winning bloke's setting.
It will be tough to find a sub-genre of fantasy not covered by high fantasy, magepunk, or apocalypse. Tolkien high fantasy is the foundation of fantasy, apocalypse pits the hero against the tangible world (an idea not unlike our own real world) and magepunk is a relatively new and sexy idea for a generation of people numbed by too much Tolkien high fantasy.
Wizards needs a broadly appealing setting. This setting also needs to be big enough to fit sub-genres within its regions (i.e. Realms + OA + Al-Qadim or Eberron + the Lost World/Continent + Pirates of the air or seas + Mystery and Intrigue).
The one glimmer of hope would be dark fantasy. A world where evil is not necessarily a a tangible aspect of the player's surroundings, but resides within all individuals within the world. People and monsters are not utterly good or evil but may have conflicting desires. I think the next setting will take on this darker overtone. Diplomacy, skill challenges, and action can all take center stage within this framework. Like magepunk, it is a modern fantasy idea for a modern generation.
If WoTC has great success with their essentials line and brings in new players and more money, then we'll see a brand new campaign setting. Probably the water world mentioned above, or a contest entry like Eberron.
Actually I would think that if the Essentials line was highly successful there would be a greater call for another generic/high fantasy setting, as it seems to me that is the kind of world most players new to D&D both expect and desire. Also, as a secondary goal of the essentials line is also to bring back lapsed players, reviving a classic setting would make even more sense.
It seems to me that the player base most interested in brand new setting are the mid-liners (players who fall between the old-schoolers and the newbs). Players who have been playing long enough to think they've grown bored with supposedly generic faints, but who haven't yet learned that a world setting is ultimately what you make of it and that most supposedly new settings are still rather generic underneath their gimmicky paint jobs. These are the kind of players who are already playing the game.
That said, I wouldn't mind a fresh new setting. I just don't see the connection between the the success of the Essentials line and the swift release of such a setting, when it strikes me that given the stated goals of the essentials line that the reverse would be true.
Although Dark Sun will be new for me as a player (because I don't know a lot about it) I think from a business sense having something brand new will be great. It's been 6 years since the last completely new campaign world...it's time.
It seems to me that the player base most interested in brand new setting are the mid-liners (players who fall between the old-schoolers and the newbs). Players who have been playing long enough to think they've grown bored with supposedly generic faints, but who haven't yet learned that a world setting is ultimately what you make of it and that most supposedly new settings are still rather generic underneath their gimmicky paint jobs. These are the kind of players who are already playing the game.
Or perhaps it is because the midliners, as you call them, realize that many older settings work perfectly as is, without needing a new book, and thus desire fresh blood to be added to the mix rather than spending a year to get a book filled with information we already know. Old books are just as legible today as they were when first printed, paper quality notwithstanding. If I can run, say, Hollow World, right out of the previous text, with all the maps, history, lore, NPCs, and story hooks intact, then I do not need it reprinted in a new book.
What I CAN'T run right now...is a brand new setting I have never seen.
You could never run an Eberron game before Eberron was printed. You couldn't play a game in the Realms before they were Forgotten. Yes, I know, Captain Obvious comment of the day, but it is worth saying. That's not to say that Magipunk or High Fantasy games didn't exist, but the specific worlds Eberron and FR brought to DnD had never been done before, and they have earned their place alongside the great stages of the genre.
Because remember, every old setting that is heralded as a great idea for the next book had an origin. Every single one of them was crafted, forged, and printed fresh and new, brought into the pantheon of DnD to present a new variety of fantasy for the gaming world. Every single one of them began when an author put pen to paper and set out to spin a new reality.
DnD is not just about what has come before. It is about recreating the old intermixed with the fresh and new, the Wizard alongside the Invoker, the Elf side by side with the Dragonborn, returning the old favorites alongside the new arrivals who, in time, might become fellow old favorites.
We've had three years of old settings. A fine number, by most reckonings, as so many elements come in threes. And it has been a fine run so far, with high adventure and urban intrigue, desolate wastes and fantastic landscapes. But if all we do is pay tribute to the past, we will never forge the future, just as Eberron would never have never seen the light of pages if they had only reprinted, nor Faerun ever been mapped if they decided they had enough ground already covered. If all we do is return to the comforts of the old, we will never find new realms which will, in the times ahead, become the comforts we cherish and to which we would wish to return. The past has had its time, we have payed it its respects.
It is time for a new world to be born.
DnD is not just about what has come before. It is about recreating the old intermixed with the fresh and new, the Wizard alongside the Invoker, the Elf side by side with the Dragonborn, returning the old favorites alongside the new arrivals who, in time, might become fellow old favorites.
Agreed 100%. I never meant to suggest otherwise. I have a great appreciation for most thing D&D, both old and new. I was merely stating that I didn't agree with the reasoning as to why there should be a new setting
It is time for a new world to be born.
And that may well be true, but I think it's important to keep in mind that NEW merely for the sake of NEWNESS is rarely a good thing. For example a water/island setting needs to be more than just its geographical features and added rules for ship-to-ship combat in order validate its inclusion into the D&D archives. I'd gladly enjoy a fresh new setting, but I want it to be something vibrant and alive, not just a one-trick pony defined solely by a gimmicky feature.
It is time for a new world to be born.
And that may well be true, but I think it's important to keep in mind that NEW merely for the sake of NEWNESS is rarely a good thing. For example a water/island setting needs to be more than just its geographical features and added rules for ship-to-ship combat in order validate its inclusion into the D&D archives. I'd gladly enjoy a fresh new setting, but I want it to be something vibrant and alive, not just a one-trick pony defined solely by a gimmicky feature.
Aye, that's a very fair point.
It helps to allow the geographic world to guide the tone; the water/island nature is well suited for an Age of Exploration style world of intrigue, politics, and nationalistic motives, for example. Guilds, countries, factions, religions, old world versus the new, schools of thought in contest with one another, a world that spreads conflict and conquest across the realms, fighting for resources or territory, where there is no true good or evil, only the loyalties you choose. Or whatever.
But you are right, the new setting must be suitably compelling. After all, the old settings mentioned did earn their place, and likewise, new blood must be strong enough to stand Ye Olde Test of Time.
It helps to allow the geographic world to guide the tone; the water/island nature is well suited for an Age of Exploration style world of intrigue, politics, and nationalistic motives, for example. Guilds, countries, factions, religions, old world versus the new, schools of thought in contest with one another, a world that spreads conflict and conquest across the realms, fighting for resources or territory, where there is no true good or evil, only the loyalties you choose. Or whatever.
Not really trying to shoot holes in you ideas, but other than the geography, Eberon arguably already accomplishes most, if not all, of those themes.
- There aren't any true unknown horizons, but ancient ruins and mysterious jungles abound. More age of archeology than age of exploration, but their is some overlap.
- Intrigue, politics, and nationalism are all very central themes.
- There are prominent guilds (Dragonmarked houses) and some of the most intricately designed religions I've ever seen in D&D (where there is more to faith than just patron immortal outsider of choice).
- There's not much in the way of revolutionary old vs new, but there are ancient powers that scheme to regain their former level of influence.
- There's not much in the way of conquest, but the base setting assumption is nations just now recovering from a continent wide war, with territorial disputes and resource control likely candidates to spark new open conflict.
- Good and evil are mostly gray concepts, and it's which powers (be they nation, guild or religion) that you cast you loyalty with that tend to matter more.
Again, not trying to say that a water/island setting couldn't offer new twists on such concepts, just pointing out that some of those ideas aren't all that new.
Not really trying to shoot holes in you ideas, but other than the geography, Eberon arguably already accomplishes most, if not all, of those themes.
But it doesn't have Horseshoecrabfolk!
But it doesn't have Horseshoecrabfolk!
But it could, as one of Eberron's motoes is 'there is a place for EVERYTHING'.
Or perhaps it is because the midliners, as you call them, realize that many older settings work perfectly as is, without needing a new book, and thus desire fresh blood to be added to the mix rather than spending a year to get a book filled with information we already know. Old books are just as legible today as they were when first printed, paper quality notwithstanding. If I can run, say, Hollow World, right out of the previous text, with all the maps, history, lore, NPCs, and story hooks intact, then I do not need it reprinted in a new book.
That's not accurate. You can maybe run a lot of the old settings, but you sure as hell can't run all of them right now. Birthright needs a crap ton of stuff to be runnable. Al-Qadim bare minimum needs new themes like what will be in Dark Sun, and probably needs more than that.
And for those of you saying Spelljammer won't happen, the developers seem to disagree with you. Keith Baker himself said in one of the Dark Sun chats that while originally they had no plans of doing a seperate Spelljammer setting, as they developed Dark Sun and some of the other stuff for this year, they went back and rethought it and decided it had merit as a separate setting. He did say don't expect it anytime soon, but he said flat out that Spelljammer is no longer a case of "never going to happen."
And for those of you saying Spelljammer won't happen, the developers seem to disagree with you. Keith Baker himself said in one of the Dark Sun chats(...)
Wrong Baker. That was Richard Baker. I should know since I was there.
Oh, and here's the transcript of that chat.
A while back I would have said Greyhawk if only because I want the gods to get 4E stuff, but after the asstastic job they failed hardcore with on the Eberron and FR domains(Why the HELL does Angharradh have Protection and Corellon doesn't seriously what the hell), frak that, I'll do it myself and bring back my smarmy womanizing bastard cleric of Olidammara back on my own.
I also do not want to see Planescape. Planescape to me isn't just about Sigil and I find the stuff on the actual planes far more interesting than the stuff on Sigil; a 4E Planescape would lose most of the themes and locations that I love so much in the interest of shoehorning everything into the blasted world axis cosmology and new awful alignment system. It'd be likely to be as much of a hellpit as the 4E Realms.
So something new. Something we haven't seen before, and for the love of Corellon, something that isn't GrimDark HellPit DarkBad. One cesspit setting in a row is too many already, if I want grimdark I'll go play a system that's actually vaguely suited for it.
I want a setting that actually has... real honest to goodness steampunk, or gritty magipunk. Not this almost bright Eberron style of magipunk, where magic pretty much replaces decent universal science. I'd like there to be a decent divide between the sciences and the magics. Something of a heroic, but magic lite world, where there's some awesome magic, but it's not the everyday of Eberron, or worse, FR.
Hey! Great idea!
To give it a more steamworky sound, let's call magic "magick".
We could call it "Arcanum", which kinda sounds magicly obscure yet has that scientific feel...
[/sarcasm]
Hey! Great idea!
To give it a more steamworky sound, let's call magic "magick".
We could call it "Arcanum", which kinda sounds magicly obscure yet has that scientific feel...
[/sarcasm]
Heeeey, I liked Arcanum. It was a fun (if a bit glitchy) game. Kind of like Fallout:Magic! Edition.
I look for a setting that will have a combination of fantasy and modern aspects, sort of like the newer Final Fantasy games. Steampunk type might be a way to go, or more modern than that, with a "return" to the realm of swords and sorcery.
One of 4e's big intentions was to get new players into the game. New players would find any campaign setting, regardless of when it was originally released, as "new". So apart from making the setting appeal to these new players, there's really nothing else needed to get them to buy it. However, many old players saw 4e's changes as heralding the apocalypse, and ran for the hills. Or rather, hyperbole removed, they didn't like 4e's changes, it didn't feel like the D&D they had grown to love, and so they stuck with their older editions or picked games that whose target audiences were not looking for a radical departure (Pathfinder, I'm looking at you). Clearly, 4e has no difficulty in picking up new players... it's retaining older players where they lose some ground. Keeping all this in mind...
What better way to bring an older player to take a look at 4e then re-releasing their beloved campaign setting from ages past with new material? I've already got players who have sworn up and down that they hate 4e, but because of Dark Sun being re-released, are interested in buying the new stuff because they enjoyed Athas so much.
If you look at their trends thus far, this has totally been the case. FR and Eberron all under-went enough changes in 4e to make them have new material for older players before their release. I suspect Dark Sun will be much the same. It's basically the same reason that Hollywood vastly prefers re-makes, sequels, and re-hashes of original fictions... the audience has already been built for you.
So unless WotC thinks they are out of viably popular old settings to re-release, I don't see why they would stop this trend. The question remains... which old setting will get the re-release treatment? My money is on Spelljammer (loathe as I would be to see it).
And that may well be true, but I think it's important to keep in mind that NEW merely for the sake of NEWNESS is rarely a good thing.
Unless you're Hasbro, the parent company, and trying to make money. There is currently a player base of 1.5 million that are buying D&D products. A great many of these are long time players who've got many books of the previous editions. If they don't have much extra cash to spend (recession) they're not likely to spend the money to buy a recycled campaign setting from a previous edition. But they might spend the money on a new one.
However, is Hasbro willing to bankrole the staff required to make a brand new setting? If the essentials line can boost player numbers, or at least get those numbers moving in a positive direction, I would say yes. But what if the sales numbers stay constant, or flop?
This puts WoTC into a tricky business model. They have to keep making new D&D material to keep up sales, but the cheap way to do it (recycle old content) might alienate your core base of players. Spend money to generate new content and you take a big financial gamble.
I hate to say it, but the decision on what campaign world to do next might be made by a bunch of suits sitting around a table in New York and have nothing to do with what would be good for D&D.
I think the fans should be vocal and let WoTC/Hasbro know exactly what they want. Post on message boards, send them emails, and discuss it at conferences. With more player input, decisions are less likely to be made by the suits alone.
However, many old players saw 4e's changes as heralding the apocalypse, and ran for the hills. Or rather, hyperbole removed, they didn't like 4e's changes, it didn't feel like the D&D they had grown to love, and so they stuck with their older editions or picked games that whose target audiences were not looking for a radical departure (Pathfinder, I'm looking at you)
This was originally the case immediately after the launch of 4th edition, but many of those who had left have since returned. The negative hype of a new edition faded as many of the naysayers gave 4th edition a chance and found it to be acceptable. There are still a very vocal group of 4th ed. haters, but in reality their numbers are small. The numbers bear this out. I've seen survey data from current D&D sales that show more than 75% of people who buy 4th ed. products are people who played the older editions. That means that 4th edition really didn't bring in that many new players.
This is why the Essentials line is being made. WoTC/Hasbro wants to expand the player base and thinks that a simplified rules set targeted at new players is the way to go.
Clearly, 4e has no difficulty in picking up new players... it's retaining older players where they lose some ground.
See what I said above. Ground lost on launch (what? only 8 races and 8 classes? This sux) has since been regained as new content has been released. But that gain has levelled off and a new attempt is being made to recruit players.
Basically, the whole world has been carved up by competing empires. Inside each empire there would room for political scheming, population control, and intelligence operations. Where the mighty empires meet, the border lands are consumed by war. PC's get to pick sides in these wars, perhaps working as mercenaries and fighting for the highest bidder or by joining armies and fighting for a single cause.
Each empire should be very distinct and therefore give the players/DM a choice in the direction they want their game to go in. The campaign guide could provide maps and describe in detail the situation in each empire and what their overall goals are. It could be given a really epic feel through adventure modules that deal with large scale battles and border shifting conflicts.
The geography of the world could be linked to the empires that control it. Dwarf lords rule the mountains, orcs control the highlands, elves the forests, humans the rivers and coasts. Rather than the racial harmony of "Points of Light", create some tension by keeping the races at war. Parties of different races could be formed by declaring some empires to be allied to each other.
To put it simply, I would like to see something as different from Points of Light as possible. Don't get me wrong, I love PoL (my current homebrew campaign is PoL and I'm loving it), but I think that if you're going to do something new for 4th edition, make it really different.
However, many old players saw 4e's changes as heralding the apocalypse, and ran for the hills. Or rather, hyperbole removed, they didn't like 4e's changes, it didn't feel like the D&D they had grown to love, and so they stuck with their older editions or picked games that whose target audiences were not looking for a radical departure (Pathfinder, I'm looking at you)
This was originally the case immediately after the launch of 4th edition, but many of those who had left have since returned. The negative hype of a new edition faded as many of the naysayers gave 4th edition a chance and found it to be acceptable. There are still a very vocal group of 4th ed. haters, but in reality their numbers are small. The numbers bear this out. I've seen survey data from current D&D sales that show more than 75% of people who buy 4th ed. products are people who played the older editions. That means that 4th edition really didn't bring in that many new players.
Except you seem to be forgetting that the essentials line has TWO goals, 1) to bring in new players, and 2) to bring back lapsed players. This is why the Essentials line is not only a simplified rules sets, but also designed as physical homage to the old Red Box set. That stated goal would seem to suggest that 4e hasn't done all that well at requiring lapsed players.
Furthermore, Most of the folks who 'ran for the hills' at the mere anouncment of 4e likely weren't really old-schoolers (who have likely already lived through an edition change or two), but the mid-liners (who mostly only ever played 3e). There is also very little evidence that most of the naysayers have since given the game a chance. You claim to have actually seen sales figures that prove otherwise, but unless you can cite your source it makes for poor evidence.
My vote for a new setting is for something opposite to the "Points of Light". Rather than have civilization spread out and weak, it is everywhere, dominant, and helluva tough. Make it really different from a thematic standpoint, but still allow all the same races, classes, magic items, etc.
I don't see that being very likely at all. Such a setting isn't just different, but the antithesis of one of the core principles of 4e.
pirate? i havn't touched the eberron stuff, but i know forgotten realms has those halrura corsairs. among other paragon paths that touch on that.
steam punk? i think eberron could expand another city/realm/continent for that.
Steampunk? Eberron has robots (warforged), trains, airships, spy networks for every kingdom and secret societies under every rock. And tattoos and tramp stamps are integral to the power system of society (dragonmarks).
- You Can Find a Place for Anything in Eberron - But that shouldn't mean you can't find it anywhere else. Eberron is a pretty damn broad setting, intentionally. It has that "and the kitchen sink" feel to it in a lot of ways, where you can find a spot in its wide expanse to fit a lot of different genres and elements. Eberron has pirates in it, sure - but does that mean no other setting can have pirates? I sure hope not.
- Geography = Setting - But that's really over-simplifying it. An interesting geography informs a setting, sure - look at Dark Sun. But it doesn't make a setting - and it doesn't preclude a setting. An oceanic world can be more than "just a water-planet" with the same old themes and ideas.
- Old Setting = No New Ideas - We know this isn't the case - especially for some of the older settings that contained elements with no current-edition counterparts. A lot of the older settings could easily carry with them new mechanics, and new ideas. Important too would be the fact that a lot of players aren't going to know the difference between a "classic" setting and a new setting.
- New Setting = New for Newness's Sake - We know this one isn't true either. Many of the old settings are fairly thematically constrained. They might appeal to the old players, but overall they will only appeal to a niche of players in general. Spelljammer is an interesting setting, but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that it would have the same broad appeal among gamers as something more traditional. A broad setting that can include more ideas may be a better choice than some of the more specific settings of old.
More of a "traditional Pirate setting" meets "astral sea where the domains of the gods await to be plundered".Perhaps WOTC could release a Pirate Campaign Book which would have details on running it in Eberron, the Realms or in the Points of Light.
Likewise, I would love to see 4th edition Oriental Adventures and Al-Qadim for Forgotten Realms. Those do not need separate settings: they are exotic locales within a world.
Good stuff
Let me add one more strange foolish quirk.
5. A setting is about one thing, and one thing only.
You don't have just, say, a pirate setting (since that's the favorite example of this thread, it seems), just like Faerun isn't just "Welcome to the Realms, here are your two scimitars", nor Eberron just "All aboard the Lightning Rail!"
A good setting always has multiple elements and multiple fronts. You can have a setting that, to continue to beat the pirate idea into the ground, combines both the Civilization Everywhere model by creating all nations in a centralized region, while still having Points of Light represented by the vast reaches across the oceans that can be colonized. You can combine technology (steamships, anyone?) with a lack of magic (make rituals the superior magery of choice, and you have a world where only the nobility can afford True Magic), yet still have all the normal classes (petty wizardry, flashy little effects that lack the strength to move the world, pah!). You can have dark fantasy (the Grimm tales work wonders in the Victorian/Exploration eras), high seas adventure, and fantastic journeys all mixed in, especially if travel from one place to another drastically changes the tone.
You never have "just a pirate setting", unless the setting itself is poorly designed.
I don't suppose you recall which interview that was do you? I would love to be able to link to it whenever these debates come up because that certainly would support my position.
As I recall it was a very early one (if not the first one where the interviewer asked of "classic" settings such as Dark Sun), and in the interview I want to say it was either Mearls or Baker spoke of "Possibly" working on Water world after talking about "possibly" working on Dark Sun.
I'll see if I can dig it up.
And Eberron isn't Steampunk. I'm sorry. Magipunk yes. But it's not Steampunk. There's a world of difference between the two.
The only other new campaign setting idea I've seen and liked is a Young World setting. Rather than have the campaign set after a major cataclysm, have it set when the world still has the new car smell. The characters are the first generation of mortals in the world, and it takes place immediately after some enormous war amongst the immortals. The immortals have beat one another into bloody pulps, and while they are dead, weak, and recuperating, the mortals have a window of opportunity to secure their freedom and future.
But for re-releasing prior settings, each setting would have to bring something unique to the table.
Greyhawk: Hardwired morality and global politics (This is how one could bring back alignment as an option)
Spelljammer: Absurdist fantasy. Space pirates, hippo-men, and miniature giant space hamster, scream weirdness and whimsy.
Council of Wyrms: Play a dragon. I imagine this would be a game beginning in Paragon tier.
Dragonlance: I really don't know how to distinguish Dragonlance from other high-fantasy campaign worlds.
Castle Ravenloft is to be a boardgame. I imagine Birthright could be a Risk-style boardgame as well. Maybe... maybe... they could have one book on playing politics, with political rituals and practices available for a Birthright-style campaign. I wouldn't count on it.
I also don't see them making ethnocentric campaigns ala Oriental Adventures, Maztica, or Al-Qadim. I feel the same way about genre-specific campaigns like Steampunk, Magic Realism, Bronze Age, or Neolithic. This would seem better suited for magazine articles.
Plenty of diversity in of itself.The only problem with a Steampunk (with Magi punk thrown in), is the Tolkienian Grognardstm would flame the forums for a while talking about how Tradtional Fantasy is Ruined Forever.
I don't see a Steampunk campaign deserving its own setting. This seems perfect for a magazine article. Like the recent "scoundrel" article by Ari Marmell, you'd have most of the article describing what steampunk is and how to adapt it to your campaign. Then you could introduce a few feats and magic itemse to help people tailor-make a steampunk campaign. If the article is well-received you could propose more articles on the subject. If someone's interested, I highly recommend they send in an article proposal.
Steampunk isn't just something you can dump into an existing campaign. (unless -maybe- Eberron and that's stretching it) it's a setting already designed with it in mind.
It's not just a bunch of items. Cultures would change with that kind of technology abound, day to day lives would be seriously impacted versus more conventional settings etc.
You'd have to alter an entire Setting to really do Steampunk. hence why it's a Genre, and one large enough to represent a Setting.
It can be distinguished from the standard by its history and background. You don't find a +1 sword, you find the sword of of involved in .
You can also distinguish it from the default though how it is different and doesn't meet the standard conventions. The races don't get along and there's tension between nations. The gods are not distant and instead actively involved. Magic is uncommon and heavily regulated. The faiths are not just followers of gods but active churches with a hierarchy and clergy.
But I'm expecting something new. Spelljammer, Planescape, and Ravenloft have been strip-mined for ideas to pad the Core books. Mystara, Red Steel, Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and yes Dragonlance are standard, generic fantasy and would detract from Forgotten Realms (although after two non-generic campaign settings, enough time might have passed to do another).
The Design and Development team really do more fluff now, and writers like seeing their ideas in print more than just updating old ideas.
Give me something like that, covering a few different topics, and I'd be a happy camper.
"Adventure on the High Seas" could have some "swashbuckler" PC minis, some ship tiles (*cough*thepromoonescouldworld*cough*), a poster map with ocean on one side, and say, docks on the reverse, and a booklet with new rules/character options/themes/etc.
Can you give me another couple hours? I was just about to find that damn link. Literally I was right in the ballpark. Son of a......
Ugh I just moved it way past where I was. And I can't find anything even resembling that article in the general archive. I looked through General discussion earlier but no thread jumped out at me in particular.
Oh GOD***** *kicks firefox* of all the times to get an error.
Can you give me another couple hours? I was just about to find that damn link. Literally I was right in the ballpark. Son of a......
Ugh I just moved it way past where I was. And I can't find anything even resembling that article in the general archive. I looked through General discussion earlier but no thread jumped out at me in particular.
No prob, just let me know when you find it.
Although I would be excited to see a Waterworld-type setting. I imagine a world with a vast ocean below and earthmotes floating above, in and beneath the waves... and even into the astral sea, or through the earth's crust.
Waterworlds are one of those campaign settings everyone makes. During the campaign idea search they must have gotten hundreds of them.
And making a Waterworld game pretty much requires delving into underwater combat with related feats and monsters. But they've worked hard to keep the 3D out of 4e and you can count aquatic monsters released on one hand.
But islands and points of light is a neat idea.
The only other new campaign setting idea I've seen and liked is a Young World setting. Rather than have the campaign set after a major cataclysm, have it set when the world still has the new car smell. The characters are the first generation of mortals in the world, and it takes place immediately after some enormous war amongst the immortals. The immortals have beat one another into bloody pulps, and while they are dead, weak, and recuperating, the mortals have a window of opportunity to secure their freedom and future.
I've thought of that as well, an uncivilized and primal world (emphasising the power sources and spirits).
The problem being the lack of dungeons or traditional tropes.
I also don't see them making ethnocentric campaigns ala Oriental Adventures, Maztica, or Al-Qadim. I feel the same way about genre-specific campaigns like Steampunk, Magic Realism, Bronze Age, or Neolithic. This would seem better suited for magazine articles.
Agreed. While I think there's alot of life left in these, the writers worked hard to strip away the historical parallels from the Forgotten Realms.
I think up till now they've worked hard to keep 3d out of 4e. I think we're going to see them do it though. If it can be done in a wargame it can easily be done in D&D. (and yeah wargames do imo tend to be more complicated rule wise than D&D)
I'm thinking islands+points of light though. The world could easily be geared towards Exploration, high seas, + the usual suspects.
Underwater delves would be awesome. Though they could make Waterworld Steampunk, more full on Magi Punk and nail two birds with one stone. That would easily distinguish it from the other campaign worlds, geography aside.
a Waterworld game pretty much requires delving into underwater combat with related feats and monsters. But they've worked hard to keep the 3D out of 4e and you can count aquatic monsters released on one hand.
I agree wiht Cpt_micha that they could now introduce 3d rules and a slew of aquatic creatures in a Waterworld campaign setting. The fact that so many people would submit one may also indicate that there's a demand for one.
I've thought of that [Young World] as well, an uncivilized and primal world (emphasising the power sources and spirits). The problem being the lack of dungeons or traditional tropes.
Well, Ravenloft thrived with almost no dragons; I think Young World could manage without dungeons.
As for traditional tropes -- I think given that this would take place, essentially, after the Dawn War, gives you plenty of tropes from which to work. Heck, Conan's Hyperborea was a young world. And of course, many of the mythical tropes -- Greek, Sumerian, Egyptian -- are often set in what is essentially a young world. I would definitely look to the Odyssey and Gilgamesh as inspiration for a Young World setting.
But islands and points of light is a neat idea.
...
I've thought of that as well, an uncivilized and primal world (emphasising the power sources and spirits).
This would be cool, though it might be straying into Earthsea a bit where every object has a truename and a power.
However, it is a cool idea and I agree that nature should take a more prominent role. A world broken up into islands literally has civilization split asunder by nature itself.
a Waterworld game pretty much requires delving into underwater combat with related feats and monsters. But they've worked hard to keep the 3D out of 4e and you can count aquatic monsters released on one hand.
I agree wiht Cpt_micha that they could now introduce 3d rules and a slew of aquatic creatures in a Waterworld campaign setting. The fact that so many people would submit one may also indicate that there's a demand for one.
3d combat is possible and there are rules, but it becomes hard with minis, which D&D relies on. I suppose if they timed it right they could release mini sets of aquatic monsters with elevation markers bundled together.
But those rules and monsters are core enough that it should probably be in a mainstream book and not ghettoed between campaign information. It's hard enough to completely detail an entire world without having new rules.
I don't see a Steampunk campaign deserving its own setting. This seems perfect for a magazine article. Like the recent "scoundrel" article by Ari Marmell, you'd have most of the article describing what steampunk is and how to adapt it to your campaign. Then you could introduce a few feats and magic itemse to help people tailor-make a steampunk campaign. If the article is well-received you could propose more articles on the subject. If someone's interested, I highly recommend they send in an article proposal.
Steampunk isn't just something you can dump into an existing campaign. (unless -maybe- Eberron and that's stretching it) it's a setting already designed with it in mind.
It's not just a bunch of items. Cultures would change with that kind of technology abound, day to day lives would be seriously impacted versus more conventional settings etc.
You'd have to alter an entire Setting to really do Steampunk. hence why it's a Genre, and one large enough to represent a Setting.
Agreed. One only has to look to Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms RPG setting to see that Steampunk, done right, can't be done in just one article of 1500-2000 words. Then again, I think the IK setting was the best setting ever released for 3e/3.5e D&D and puts Eberron to shame.
Alas, it never made it to 4e and it will be redone in the future with it's own mechanics rather than D&D mechanics.
I don't see a Steampunk campaign deserving its own setting. This seems perfect for a magazine article. Like the recent "scoundrel" article by Ari Marmell, you'd have most of the article describing what steampunk is and how to adapt it to your campaign. Then you could introduce a few feats and magic itemse to help people tailor-make a steampunk campaign. If the article is well-received you could propose more articles on the subject. If someone's interested, I highly recommend they send in an article proposal.
Steampunk isn't just something you can dump into an existing campaign. (unless -maybe- Eberron and that's stretching it) it's a setting already designed with it in mind.
It's not just a bunch of items. Cultures would change with that kind of technology abound, day to day lives would be seriously impacted versus more conventional settings etc.
You'd have to alter an entire Setting to really do Steampunk. hence why it's a Genre, and one large enough to represent a Setting.
Agreed. One only has to look to Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms RPG setting to see that Steampunk, done right, can't be done in just one article of 1500-2000 words. Then again, I think the IK setting was the best setting ever released for 3e/3.5e D&D and puts Eberron to shame.
Alas, it never made it to 4e and it will be redone in the future with it's own mechanics rather than D&D mechanics.
I'm an avid IK fan... that's why I would love to have real steampunk in the vein of IK versus what's given in Eberron. Eberron also lacks those lovable 'Jacks.
Actually instead of steam punk i'd rather see Heavy metal fantasy. Where you start getting rifles that fire spells instead of bullets and the like.
Check out Iron Kingdoms. That describes the Gunmage class with their rune pistols. Alas, it's out of print, so you'll have to hunt to track down the Player's Guide and the World Book. It's steampunk, but they do call it "Heavy metal Fantasy." Although I guess that was more directed at theor miniatures game since the Steamjacks were big hunks of metal.
You really don't want to be in the middle of this fight:
Obviously they should release the campaign setting I'm building in my sig...
*BLATENT PLUG*
Naww, I think a new setting would be really cool, just as something different, though I never played in Birthright, and I am intrigued by that idea...
Actually instead of steam punk i'd rather see Heavy metal fantasy. Where you start getting rifles that fire spells instead of bullets and the like.
Check out Iron Kingdoms. That describes the Gunmage class with their rune pistols. Alas, it's out of print, so you'll have to hunt to track down the Player's Guide and the World Book. It's steampunk, but they do call it "Heavy metal Fantasy." Although I guess that was more directed at theor miniatures game since the Steamjacks were big hunks of metal.
You really don't want to be in the middle of this fight:
That looks like a scene out of the Last War from Eberron. Look, those are all Warforged, and those two big ones are Waforged Juggernauts.
Given we've already seen a shadow class, it's the likely option for a PHB4.
Assuming we get a PHB4 with DDE taking the limelight at the end of this year and no sign of the DMG3, Divine Power 2 (for the PHB3 classes) or Primal Power 2 (for the same) or Arcane Power 2 (with the artificer getting it's third build in Dragon instead).
They might just call it a wrap with three campaign settings.
The Board Game Ravenloft can't be the placeholder, if it comes to that.
That looks like a scene out of the Last War from Eberron. Look, those are all Warforged, and those two big ones are Waforged Juggernauts.
Actually, other than the 6 'Jacks, they're all humans in armor.
Although, I would be very happy if there was a Vision of Escaflowne type setting, with Steam-Magi-Punk, with more of an emphasis on the steam than the magic, though the two interlaced: Arcane Magic IS Science.
Devas could be Escaflowne Draconians, and the idea of operating slightly, but not too much larger mecha is a really cool idea methinks.
Arkhosia and Bael Turath fought a war against each other, and a long time after that, Nerath emerged as a new empire.
Although I'm fairly irrelevant to this stuff on the whole. I don't play pre-made campaign settings. I mean, I'll play in them, but I never DM them. What Wizards of the Coast will create or choose not to create will affect me very minimally, if at all.
What matters to me therefore, is that there be great new ideas which are widely applicable. The Realms gave us Genasi, Swordmages, Earthmotes and Spell Scars. Eberron gave us Warforged, Kalashtar, Daelkyr, Artificers, Dragon Marks, Elemental Magic Technology and Dragon Shards. Whatever new setting, whether Dragonlance, Pirates vs. Ninja or Greyhawk, I just want it to provide as much useful new stuff.
With that in mind, what mechanical goodies does your favourite setting offer my game?
Older players might might like new versions of older campaign settings updated for 4e.
For newer players these updated campaign settings might be considered new.
A lot of players would like something completely new, perhaps exemplifying a concept or theme yet to be touched on in Dungeons and Dragons.
Currently, Forgotten Realms represents a high fantasy setting, Eberron represents a fantasy, steam punk(ish) setting, and Dark Sun will represent a post-apocalyptic desert setting. So what is left?
A planar or interplanar setting might be interesting like Spelljammer or Planescape (even though Planescape has been described as being already wrapped into the core setting.)
I like the idea of a gothic, horror setting like Ravenloft (although Ravenloft may be restricted to further dragon/dungeon articles.) There could be a totally new gothic setting.
Ethnic and environmental settings have been described as being too niche. What if some concepts from Al-Qadim and Oriental Adventures could be wrapped together into a new Eastern setting for 4e? Dungeons and Dragons has always catered more to Western fantasy, foklore and history, so an all-encompassing Eastern fantasy setting might be something new. A new campaign setting based on an environment type is a possibility, such as the potential "water-world" setting mentioned in this thread. Other options might include frozen wastes or primeval, lost-world type setting.
I really like steam-punk, but I do not see a campaign setting other than Eberron existing using the current 4e rules. I have high hopes for a 4e compatible version of D20 Modern/Past where magic and science could exist side by side in a victorianesque steam-punk campaign. I would also have interest in a slightly evolved fantasy setting that might take it's theme from the Hundred Years War, the Rennaissance or New World exploration.
There also seems to be an interest in updating past sub-settings from previous and present campaign settings, and definite interest in the full campaign treatment for the Nentir Vale/Points of Light setting.
Overall, I am still undecided. I would definetely still like to see something new for 4e. Presently I am leaning towards a planar, gothic or eastern campaign setting, but I also think there is still the possibility for something totally suprising, new and original.
Truth be told, I do not care what new setting the Wizards publish. I will get it regardless, because I am a big convert to the mantra that "everything is core."
What matters to me therefore, is that there be great new ideas which are widely applicable. The Realms gave us Genasi, Swordmages, Earthmotes and Spell Scars. Eberron gave us Warforged, Kalashtar, Daelkyr, Artificers, Dragon Marks, Elemental Magic Technology and Dragon Shards. Whatever new setting, whether Dragonlance, Pirates vs. Ninja or Greyhawk, I just want it to provide as much useful new stuff.
With that in mind, what mechanical goodies does your favourite setting offer my game?
In my case, Birthright offers a lot.
the chance to finally have PC write-ups for goblinoids
mass combat rules
magic capable of effecting entire realms in a single spell
rules for running a kingdom/guild/center of worship/"police" force/etc.
unique takes on elves/dwarves/halflings, as well as a new way at looking at other races (tieflings aren't cursed by a pact with devils, they're cursed because they literally have the blood of an evil god in their veins for example)
divine blood abilities in a format that could be similar to Spellscars or Dragonmarks or Themes or even something completely new
the 2e Guilder class as a theme like the Dark Sun themes, or maybe a multi-class feat tree
if WotC really gets into the environment rules with Dark Sun, Birthright could add on with rules for frozen tundras
and probably more that I'm forgetting
But, maybe this would be a good setting.We are due to hear about another campaign setting and lo and behold even the Gen Con page is covered in vampires? Hmmmmm.....
I think the #1 question that the developers will be asking themselves when considering what setting to do next is what can they do with it mechanically?
If a setting offers the opportunity to flesh out some new rules and mechanics for the game, I think they will give it more consideration. With Darksun they get to do bone weapons and gladiator themes and the Creature Catalog and stuff like that. Eberron had Dragonmark feats. I'll bet they're looking at other settings that have interesting twists on the rules.
Such criteria might give something like Spelljammer a pretty good shot. If nothing else so that they could come out with a Giant Space Hamster Manual.
Dominaria
Aka the world the metaplot of Magic: the Gathering takes place in.
It's WotC I.P. and never been published before yet has alot of fans and ideas for new mechanics. It's undetailed enough to let the writers go nuts. 4e has alot of card game elements and probably converted a few M:tG players into D&D players.
Here's a BIG option for the next setting book that's probably gone fairly unmentioned.
Dominaria
Aka the world the metaplot of Magic: the Gathering takes place in.
It's WotC I.P. and never been published before yet has alot of fans and ideas for new mechanics. It's undetailed enough to let the writers go nuts. 4e has alot of card game elements and probably converted a few M:tG players into D&D players.
I wouldn't doubt it, considering 4e has a very MTG feel to it. I'v said that since I first read the rules.
Upkeep Phase - ongoing effects
Main phase - tactical power/item use
Battle phase - <---
End of Turn Phase - Saving throws and other effects
Beyond those clunky comparisons, the feel of the game does have some mtg flavor. At least too me. Others claim it feels like a video game, but to me it feels like magic. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy it completely. I loved magic.
Here's a BIG option for the next setting book that's probably gone fairly unmentioned.
Dominaria
Aka the world the metaplot of Magic: the Gathering takes place in.
It's WotC I.P. and never been published before yet has alot of fans and ideas for new mechanics. It's undetailed enough to let the writers go nuts. 4e has alot of card game elements and probably converted a few M:tG players into D&D players.
Honestly, I love it. M:tG has some pretty awesome fluff to it. And really, I think the color wheel might work pretty well...
Black: "Shadow"
Red: Elemental?
Green: "Primal"
White: "Divine" 
Blue: "Psionic"Mixed Color / Artifacts: "Arcane"
No Color / Non-Magical: "Martial"
None of those would be pure associations between color and source - but generally the power sources could match up with those colors, and their complementary colors. (So, for instance, "Primal" is primarily Green, but can blend elements from Red or White, while "Psionic" is primarily Blue, but can blend elements from White or Black.)
EDIT: I'd love to see something (though perhaps not in a printed setting) that was essentially guidelines for using a Magic deck as a campaign outline.
EDIT: Oooh, I forgot they have convenient mana-symbols! Mana symbols ahoy!
That said, I do have a comment or two to make.
Mixed Color / Artifacts: "Arcane"
I'd say Blue is more Arcane than Psionic. Blue is the color of knowledge and the basic theme of the Arcane power source is that knowledge = power. Yes blue also has theme of mental powers, but it tends to be more about mind control rather than innate ability. Blue is an intellectual color and all the Arcane classes (save only the sorcerer) make use of the INT stat, while the only Psionic class to do so is the psion. The monk is more about discipline (White), while the ardent is a wellspring of emotion (Red), and the Battlemind ... um, I think will have to wait until the class gets better defined flavor to say for sure (???).
No Color / Non-Magical: "Martial"
This too is out of theme. All living creatures have a color whether they possess overt magical qualities or not. Even seemingly mundane professions such as soldier and warrior are commonly with associated with colors, white and red respectively.
Really though almost any class could be associated with any color. Certain classes might general favor one color, but might have builds that favor a different color. Which is probably as it should be, while creature types in Mt:G may favor certain colors, many of them appear in multiple colors (either directly or as close analogs).
It's also probably a bad idea to try and associate power sources and colors too much, as there are theoretically as of yet unannounced future power sources that will be added to D&D's list. However, as colors tend to be just as much philosophies as a source of mana, they might function very nicely as an alternate alignment system.
Here's a BIG option for the next setting book that's probably gone fairly unmentioned.
Dominaria
Aka the world the metaplot of Magic: the Gathering takes place in.
It's WotC I.P. and never been published before yet has alot of fans and ideas for new mechanics. It's undetailed enough to let the writers go nuts. 4e has alot of card game elements and probably converted a few M:tG players into D&D players.
That is an interesting suggestion. Although I do not know a lot about Magic, I have looked over some current cards recently, and I find the artwork and world to be interesting. It seems a little different than typical high fantasy DnD, how exactly I can't describe. (Edgy/Mystical?)
Here's a BIG option for the next setting book that's probably gone fairly unmentioned.
Dominaria
Aka the world the metaplot of Magic: the Gathering takes place in.
It's WotC I.P. and never been published before yet has alot of fans and ideas for new mechanics. It's undetailed enough to let the writers go nuts. 4e has alot of card game elements and probably converted a few M:tG players into D&D players.
I wouldn't doubt it, considering 4e has a very MTG feel to it. I'v said that since I first read the rules.
Upkeep Phase - ongoing effects
Main phase - tactical power/item use
Battle phase - <---
End of Turn Phase - Saving throws and other effects
Beyond those clunky comparisons, the feel of the game does have some mtg flavor. At least too me. Others claim it feels like a video game, but to me it feels like magic. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy it completely. I loved magic.
4e pulled alot of elements from other WotC games including M:tG and the D&D Minis game. If you pull-out the PC rules from 4e you get DDM.
As cool as I think it would be to see many of the vibrant worlds of M:tG adapted for D&D, it seems unlikely. I seem to recall there being some mention that WotC doesn't want to allow their intellectual properties to become interconnected (something about individualized brand identity or some such).
They probably wanted to, but it makes too much sense.
Most of the other worlds have too much of a generic fantasy feel, are already being stolen for the Core setting, or lack enough material and new ideas to fill a PC and GM book.
The other option is a new setting, but that's tantamount to the writers coming-out and announcing their idea(s) of a fantasy world are better than Gygax's (Greyhawk) or one of the best-selling fantasy series of all time (Dragonlance).
Here's a BIG option for the next setting book that's probably gone fairly unmentioned.
Dominaria
Aka the world the metaplot of Magic: the Gathering takes place in.
Dominaria hasn't been of any importance to the plot of M:TG for nearly 3 years, ever since the Mending means planeswalkers from Dominaria can travel the entire Multiverse instead of being stuck to the backwaters of the shard that Dominaria was a part of. Even the few years prior to Time Spiral had very little of Dominaria in it (Kamigawa, Ravnica, Mirrodin, the Weatherlight sage which mostly took place on other planes though at least those were mildly connected to Dominaria due to being part of the shard). Which is a good thing because Dominaria was boring as hell. So yeah, count me in the 'No' camp for a Dominaria campaign setting.
An MTG themed setting would involve a lot of travelling the planes because most of the interest of the setting is based on the fact it explores vastly different worlds and jumps from one to the other at a frantic pace. It would make for a very different setting than what we already have, but my fear is that it would be too hard to be true to both MTG and D&D.
It would be nice if it was Spelljammer, but don't get your hopes on it. WotC has been concentrating on campaign worlds rather than campaign settings in general. I think Spelljammer will eventually have Dragon & Dungeon support articles. Same goes for Ravenloft and other settings that are subsets of a campaign world. What hasn't been done yet are DragonLance, Greyhawk, & Birthright. Even though my favorite of those three is DragonLance, even I don't think the next world is going to be that. My opinion is for a new unreleased world.
Well how about a setting that has the spirit of Spelljammer but used a little differently.
The Campaign world is set in one solar system or sphere. Similar to Iomandra but instead of little islands we have planets, moons and large asteroids.
It would be a strange mix of Spelljammer meets Firefly/star wars.
We could have Piracy, smuggling and pioneering on the outer worlds and Politics, war and espionage closer to the core.
I would buy that.
It would be nice if it was Spelljammer, but don't get your hopes on it. WotC has been concentrating on campaign worlds rather than campaign settings in general. I think Spelljammer will eventually have Dragon & Dungeon support articles. Same goes for Ravenloft and other settings that are subsets of a campaign world. What hasn't been done yet are DragonLance, Greyhawk, & Birthright. Even though my favorite of those three is DragonLance, even I don't think the next world is going to be that. My opinion is for a new unreleased world.Well how about a setting that has the spirit of Spelljammer but used a little differently.
The Campaign world is set in one solar system or sphere. Similar to Iomandra but instead of little islands we have planets, moons and large asteroids.
It would be a strange mix of Spelljammer meets Firefly/star wars.
We could have Piracy, smuggling and pioneering on the outer worlds and Politics, war and espionage closer to the core.
I would buy that.
Before WotC dropped Star Wars I honestly thought we'd be seeing Star Wars 4e.
I'll drink to that. Let's try something brand new this year.
Alas, this year is a retread: Dark Sun. Unless maybe perhaps you meant next year?
My preference would be for a series of 'mini-settings' for real historical periods (like the old green books for 2e). Unfortunately, every historical setting I've ever seen has put a little too much on the 'history' side, which does the fantasy side a disservice (I'd like to play a setting that's akin to Thomas Harlan's Oath of Empire series without having to homebrew it).
Um lets not try to turn 4e into GURPS. thanks
"Thanks."
Midkemia/Kelewan please. I wish I knew how to create a game because I would build a system for this setting. Granted, quite a few races would never be seen but the setting just happens to be one of my favorites.
What the heck is Midkemia/Kelewan?
Again I say it would be nice, but I just don't believe it will happen.
It's from the Riftwar series of books by Raymond E. Feist.
Yeah, I doubt WotC is going to shell out licensing fees for a book-based setting unless it's something insanely popular like Harry Potter was in its heyday.
My money is still on it being the pirate world setting by the guy who makes Order of the Stick.
I would love to see Rich Berlew's runner-up to Eberron. But considering how his health already impacts his work on OotS, I doubt he'd have time to do it right.
And we're not getting Spelljammer in 4th ed. Secrets of the Astral see proved that - spelljamming is now a part of planescape. No phlogiston, no scro, no legend of the spelljammer.
Also, I wouldn't call FR high fantasy anymore. If anything, it's now post apocalyptic, in some ways more than Dark Sun ever was. Effectively, it's an irradiated mess with mutants running around. Hey, maybe that's why they put out Gamma World! We could have a cross-over!
In all seriousness, though, they're not going to turn PoL into a serious setting either. They refuse to acknowledge it is a setting at all, because that would mean acknowledging that this is the most setting-specific iteration of the core rules we've ever seen from D&D, and how it is subsequently harder to adapt 4e to other ideas than it was in 3.x and 2nd ed. Which would not be great marketing strategy.
Plus, the last time they cobbled together a campaign setting from random references in their core books we got mystara, which (despite some ardent fans) was never all that popular. Despite the awesomeness of ghoul/troll/hobgoblin hybrids.
You could easily incorporate many of the 'edgier' elements of 'punk' campaigns (steampunk/cyberpunk/magicpunk) into such a campaign as well, whereas they maybe wouldn't be so at home in say a campaign like Eberron. I feel it's true that if you want, you can find what you're looking for in Eberron (Dreaming Dark, tattoos, magitek, moral greyness) but I don't think they make it any more 'gritty' as a setting (mainly because 4e took a lot of what originally made Eberron gritty and made it part of the core game e.g. action points).
Also, it'd just be nice for some more mature-themed adventures where the characters aren't necessarily heroes, but struggling to get on with it in a dispassionate or perhaps even malicious universe.
Tiste Andii = drow
Tiste Edur = elves
Tiste Liosan = eladrin
Jhag = half-orc (or maybe longtooth shifter)
Teblor/Barghast = goliath
T'lan Imass = revenant with Eladrin/Shadar-Kai Soul (for the encounter teleport)
Actually, if anyone else is interested in having a go at converting this setting to D&D4, let me know...
Dont expect to see a more Dark campaign setting to be released. Hasbro is marketing D&D to younger crowds now and they do not need nor want the negative publicity such a setting would bring. We still have people that swear if you play D&D that you cast spells and worship the devil. Lets not fan the flames. Take what you have and make your own Dark campaign. Dont expect to see it from Hasbro/WOTC
Maybe we should see how Ravenloft the boardgame does before you say that.If it has good sales ,hasbro wizards might decide to make it a full setting again(I know Im dreaming).
Dont expect to see a more Dark campaign setting to be released. Hasbro is marketing D&D to younger crowds now and they do not need nor want the negative publicity such a setting would bring. We still have people that swear if you play D&D that you cast spells and worship the devil. Lets not fan the flames. Take what you have and make your own Dark campaign. Dont expect to see it from Hasbro/WOTC
That's fine for me ... I always preferred Ravenloft as an adventure over a campaign setting.
I think a pirate-themed campaign would be popular. Can't you just see lots of kits with ships you assemble from cut-outs? That'd be fun!
I think a pirate-themed campaign would be popular. Can't you just see lots of kits with ships you assemble from cut-outs? That'd be fun!
And don't forget the potential for pirate-ship dungeon tiles, pirate minis, and ship minis for naval combat (kind of using the "chase scale" theory from D20 modern for this idea).
I would like to see pirates able to get "warforged hands" or legs instead of just hooks and pegs though.
www.wizards.com/dnd/Catalog.aspx
Dont expect to see a more Dark campaign setting to be released. Hasbro is marketing D&D to younger crowds now and they do not need nor want the negative publicity such a setting would bring. We still have people that swear if you play D&D that you cast spells and worship the devil. Lets not fan the flames. Take what you have and make your own Dark campaign. Dont expect to see it from Hasbro/WOTC
Maybe we should see how Ravenloft the boardgame does before you say that.If it has good sales ,hasbro wizards might decide to make it a full setting again(I know Im dreaming).
That may make a difference for the 2012 setting, but the 2011 setting development is probably well under way. I doubt they would shift gears in the middle of development. I am willing to bet the next setting will probably be more traditional sword and sorcery to capitalize on the Essentials line. Who knows though (I keep waiting for some sort of hint in Ampersand).
As for Gamma World, I'm digging the idea and hoping that opens the door for other older settings like Star Frontiers, Top Secret and Dark*Matter ;)
I know that wizards' stated intention with 4e was to attract new players BUT, as it has been iterated on this thread many times, the second part of that purpose is to make products that keep their base buying as well. There is already a bunch of... maybe not kid-friendly but certainly adolescent-friendly material available but a real dearth of mature-themed content. The above-mentioned books will make up for a bit of that, but a whole campaign setting? That would be fantastic, and go a long way toward filling out the spectrum of content thematically. If hasbro is worried, it can always, and likely would, just put a Mature Content label/disclaimer on the front just like they did with BoVD and BoED.
Yeah I forgot about gamma world. Still it would seem that is not REALLY a campaign setting as much as a new set of rules. I would like to see a techno setting just for fun, maybe a Bladerunner/Fifth Element kinda vibe.
I would as well, but I think that basically falls into the category of asking for a 4e version of D20 Modern. If your interested in something simiar, you could always check out Amythest.
In defense of my earlier post about the dark fantasy themed campaign: wizards is releasing the Demonomicon, which has rules for PC's to summon and control demons; Dark Sun, a godless campaign that draws from fantasy barbarism such as conan and john carter of mars (amorality, graphic violence, nudity, etc.); inevitably, the shadowfell and shadow power source books, which will let PC's explore Necromancy, true lichdom (not the Barney-version in arcane power, although it is a powerful ED), and horror-themed adventure ideas. That's not to mention that they will eventually be making an aberration source-book, which will be likely be a mind-f*ck in itself. Given all this, I don't think Hasbro is overly concerned with how they come off to the nutty Christians who read more Chick tracts than they do Bible verses (look at this site if you don't know what Chick tracts are, cuz they're hilarious: www.chick.com/default.asp). Those people have always willfully misinterpreted what DnD is to get their face in the news or to pretty much just have something to hate and Hasbro knew this when it purchased Wizards.
I know that wizards' stated intention with 4e was to attract new players BUT, as it has been iterated on this thread many times, the second part of that purpose is to make products that keep their base buying as well. There is already a bunch of... maybe not kid-friendly but certainly adolescent-friendly material available but a real dearth of mature-themed content. The above-mentioned books will make up for a bit of that, but a whole campaign setting? That would be fantastic, and go a long way toward filling out the spectrum of content thematically. If hasbro is worried, it can always, and likely would, just put a Mature Content label/disclaimer on the front just like they did with BoVD and BoED.
The Demonomicon states no where in its write up that it gives any PC options what so ever. It is a GM's resource.
"Summoning Demons: Mortals who seek abyssal power can bind demons to their service, but at great risk."
I guess it is kind of ambiguous but (I forget the article) there was one for I believe wizards (though possibly another arcane class) that allowed them to use daily summon powers to call forth demons also. There are also things like the infernal pact...
That combined with my other comments... I think my point still stands.
1. PoL: they have said time and time again they like the fact that it is pretty vague. they are not going to publish PoL as a setting, 'cause they plan to leave it as open as possible. it is on purpose. that is why it got created in the first place.
2. Maztica: it didn't sell that much in 2nd edition, and they even dropped it from FR when the 2 worlds collided.
3. Another medival europe-meets-magic setting: they are not going to canibalize FR with something too similar like dragonlance, birthright or mystara. For us who have been around for a while, they are somehow different, but how is a brand new or a 3rd edition player going to tell the difference? I think they are still publishing DL novels, but I really don't know how well they are doing ...
4. Greyhawk: it does not belong to WotC, they cannot use it
5. Core add-ons: everything that has been thrown into the core (ravenloft, spelljammer, planescape) is not going to be a stand along campaign. These might be cool ideas (I loved Spelljammer!!) but these don't stand a chance against FR or Eberron in sales.
6. Futurist settings: Gamma world will be out in a few months, and they are not going to publish 2 'similar' settings in less than 9 months.
so, what else do we have?
the whole Water World idea is kindda the opposite to the whole Dark Sun idea. sounds unlikely unless they mix it with a new power source like they did with darksun. what power sources do we have left? shadow and elemental come to mind ... they released the whole psionic/psychic power source material right before dark sun, so if they do the same, they'll use one of those sources ... so, I think it could be
1. an arabic/chinese kindda setting to use the elemental forces - maybe an archipelago kinnda world with lots of volcanoes and whatnot
or
2. a whole undergroud setting to use the shadows. what if people cannot live on the surface of the world? or if it's a dying world like in the movie the Matrix ....
.... that last one was just a thought that popped up as I was typing
....I guess we'll find out soon enough
4. Greyhawk: it does not belong to WotC, they cannot use it
Wait. What? Who owns Greyhawk if nto WotC? They used it as their default world for 3e.
WotC doesn't own Blackmoor, AFAIK. But I'm pretty sure they own Greyhawk.
from wikipedia:
"At Gen Con 2007, WotC announced that the 4th edition of D&D (D&D 4E) would be released the following spring, and Greyhawk would no longer be the default campaign setting under the new rules system. For this reason, Living Greyhawk was not converted to the new rules system; instead, it was brought to a conclusion at Origins 2008."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk#2008_to_p...
In 2009, WotC released The Village of Hommlet by Andy Collins, which updated Gary Gygax's original 1st-edition Village of Hommlet to fourth edition. It was not available for purchase, but rather was sent as a reward for those who joined the RPGA.
Unofficial Greyhawk sources section
However, in 2003, Gygax announced that he was working with Rob Kuntz to publish the original castle and city in 6 volumes, although the project would use the rules for Castles and Crusades rather than D&D.[164] Since WotC still owned the rights to the name "Greyhawk", Gygax changed the name of the castle to "Castle Zagyg"—the reverse homophone of his own name originally ascribed to the mad architect of his original 13-level dungeon. Gygax also changed the name of the nearby city to "Yggsburgh", a play on his initials E.G.G.
I also seem to remember one of the Grayhawk novels published after Gygax had left TSR, the "last of the serries," where the world was destroyed at the end of the book. (though some characters ended up escaping doom, I believe)
Also from that article section:
After Gygax left TSR in 1985, he continued to write a few more Gord the Rogue novels, which were published by New Infinities Productions: Sea of Death (1987), City of Hawks (1987), and Come Endless Darkness (1988). However, by this time, Gygax was furious with the new direction in which TSR was taking "his" world. In a literary declaration that his old world of Oerth was dead, and wanting to make a clean break with all things Greyhawk, Gygax destroyed his version of Oerth in the final Gord the Rogue novel, Dance of Demons.[162] For the next 15 years, he worked to develop other game systems.
Ravenloft, Spelljammer and Planescape have been folded into the core. So I don't think they will be 4e settings. We've gotten some domains of dread in dragon magazines, so Ravenloft seems to be completely supported by the magazines.
As much as I would love to see Ravenloft published as a campaign setting (especially since I don't have a DDI subscription), I have to agree entirely with this sentiment. We might get support materials for them, but all of the WotC support for these settings will likely come through DDI articles. 3PPs might be into a 4e heroes of horror, or a 4e catalogue of spelljammer ships (with internal ship diagrams and ship-to-ship combat rules), but I doubt we'll see such a thing being published through traditional media by WotC.
As for the flavor settings (Al-Qadim, OA, etc), I don't think one of those will ever be published either. While non-western cultures can be really fun settings, that culture alone really isn't the basis for an entire campaign setting. If we see these things in the future from WotC, it will likely be in DDI articles about reflavoring the western-cultured core into non-western cultures. The only way I can see one of these becoming traditionally published game material is through a 3PP, or if WotC can stuff several cultures into one book of alternate fantsy cultures.
Assuming I am correct, this only leaves old settings and brand new settings. I could speculate all day about which they'll choose, but I believe they (as both businessmen and gamers) have made their choice by comparing the estimated popularity of the new settings against the popularity of the old settings.
If it comes to which will sell better, an old campaign setting will always win out. No matter... how unoriginal it already looks to other settings, fans will buy it.
I don't know if I buy that as the gospel truth. There is a lot of love for the old campaign settings, but that doesn't mean it will sell better. There are a lot of people running 4e in an old setting with the old books for the fluff and a few houserules to modify the core material.
Another thing to consider, which I neglected to fit into my last post, is the ease with which the campaign setting can be made. If a campaign requires few mechanical tweaks, WotC will have to pay less development costs (and thus the product won't have to sell as much to be equally as profitable).
No wait its Greyhawk
Oh who knows
We got some famous DL dragon in the Draconomicons,
We got the draconians in Draconomicon 2,
We got the minotaur as a PC in PH3!
what else do we need?
now seriously, if they were going to publish a DL campaign book, what would they put in it (besides a whole lot of fluff)? I think that if they were going to do it at all, it'd be a $9.95 supplement with:
intro and contents (1 page)
ch1. updated background history (4 pages)
ch2. magic - the moons and what not (2 pages)
ch3. cosmology - if there are any changes - & pantheon (4 pages)
ch4. maps & locations (very scarce as the FR campaign book) (12 pages)
ch5. solace (4 pages)
ch6. paragon classes & feats (5 pages)
total: 32 pages, like the $9.95 Dragonborn book, released in January
looking at what I just wrote now, it seems a little bit too short though . . .
hey, Dragonlance is done!
We got some famous DL dragon in the Draconomicons,
We got the draconians in Draconomicon 2,
We got the minotaur as a PC in PH3!
what else do we need?
now seriously, if they were going to publish a DL campaign book, what would they put in it (besides a whole lot of fluff)? I think that if they were going to do it at all, it'd be a $9.95 supplement with:
intro and contents (1 page)
ch1. updated background history (4 pages)
ch2. magic - the moons and what not (2 pages)
ch3. cosmology - if there are any changes - & pantheon (4 pages)
ch4. maps & locations (very scarce as the FR campaign book) (12 pages)
ch5. solace (4 pages)
ch6. paragon classes & feats (5 pages)
total: 32 pages, like the $9.95 Dragonborn book, released in January
looking at what I just wrote now, it seems a little bit too short though . . .
They would probably do it like they are doing the Darksun setting. And I wouldnt be surprised to see the next couple of settings come out like Darksun is.
But keep reading!
...
After Gygax left TSR in 1985, he continued to write a few more Gord the Rogue novels, which were published by New Infinities Productions: Sea of Death (1987), City of Hawks (1987), and Come Endless Darkness (1988). However, by this time, Gygax was furious with the new direction in which TSR was taking "his" world. In a literary declaration that his old world of Oerth was dead, and wanting to make a clean break with all things Greyhawk, Gygax destroyed his version of Oerth in the final Gord the Rogue novel, Dance of Demons. For the next 15 years, he worked to develop other game systems.
So, in short, he had a fit and took his ball home, then blew it up? Why did we lionize that guy then?
But keep reading!
...
After Gygax left TSR in 1985, he continued to write a few more Gord the Rogue novels, which were published by New Infinities Productions: Sea of Death (1987), City of Hawks (1987), and Come Endless Darkness (1988). However, by this time, Gygax was furious with the new direction in which TSR was taking "his" world. In a literary declaration that his old world of Oerth was dead, and wanting to make a clean break with all things Greyhawk, Gygax destroyed his version of Oerth in the final Gord the Rogue novel, Dance of Demons. For the next 15 years, he worked to develop other game systems.
So, in short, he had a fit and took his ball home, then blew it up? Why did we lionize that guy then?
Because he created the game we love, was then treated shabbily by those he trusted, who basically did everything they could to take what he created away from him.
Because he created the game we love, was then treated shabbily by those he trusted, who basically did everything they could to take what he created away from him.
You can't take away from someone what they willingly sold you.
www.amazon.com/Gazeteer-Nentir-Vale-4th-...
Maybe "Nentir Vale" will be next year's setting.
www.amazon.com/Gazeteer-Nentir-Vale-4th-...
Could be, but I think it is just a stand-alone book. We kinda need to see more on it. The Nentir Vale is a pretty small area, so I am interested in seeing how they have done this. Of course, with products like Hammerfast(which is in the Nentir Vale, isn't it) already in existence, I wonder what won't be in the book.
Maybe "Nentir Vale" will be next year's setting.
www.amazon.com/Gazeteer-Nentir-Vale-4th-...
My guess is that is for the 'Essentials' line, so there is a 'setting book' for new players.
www.amazon.com/Mark-Nerath-Dungeons-Drag...
Gen Con info points to there being 2 "informal" campaign settings for 2011, the first is the previously mentioned Core world with the Nentir Vale Gazetteer, the second and most exciting is The Ravenloft Roleplaying game, which is completely compatible with 4th Edition. Check the Gen Con podcast on the Wizards D&D page. I'm excited about it.