They're already releasing a Nentir Vale Gazateer in Winter 2011, which is kind of a campaign setting (if its anything like a longer Hammerfast or Vor Rukoth, I'll be very pleased). If they're releasing any other campaign settings next year, we'll likely find out in a couple of weeks at Gen Con.
1) There is no 2011 campaign.
2) There is one, but has been kept completely under wraps for the same reason that they have barely mentioned anything about the post-Essentials releases - it depends too much on how the Essentials will affect the landscape, so to speak.
3) (my guess) PoLand will become an official setting. They've already been moving in this direction for a while now, and one of the extremely few post-Essentials releases we actually do know about is the Nentir Vale guide.
2 & 3 might actually go together as well.
I know what the next setting is and I'll give you a hint.
Show
Look up the definition of Gullible.
Look up the definition of Gullible.
I've just taken a quick look at the threads on here and there doesn't seem to be any mention of a campaign setting being released in 2011. Are there any plans to have one?
I presume 2011 will be wrapped in Abyssal Plague metaplot stuff. If I remember right the podcast talked about "the surprising return of an old foe" or something along those lines.
So, Iuz & Co. would be alright. Incubalos would be REALLY surprising, but unlikely. The return of Nerull. Or the Big Theta gets free.
Or it's Bhaal, and the Video game crap is sorted out. More FR gods die and geography gets scrambled. I'd go for another Realms-Shattering Event.
It's TAKHISIS! Knights need to save people and fiction must be sold.
Or it's Bargle because of the Essentials.
But they may just promote more PoL stuff.
More than likely DL since it has the 2nd largest fan base outside of FR.
Its gonna be Dragon Lance or Greyhawk.
More than likely DL since it has the 2nd largest fan base outside of FR.
.....You mean like how Dragonlance was going to be the 2010 setting? :P
Personally it looks to me that they are either doing a new setting, fleshed out PoL, or no setting at all.
Its gonna be Dragon Lance or Greyhawk.
More than likely DL since it has the 2nd largest fan base outside of FR.
They already have their high fantasy setting with Forgotten Realms. Seems to me that this edition they want to create distinctly different settings and Dragonlance doesn't fill a niche that isn't already filled by Forgotten Realms.
Seems to me that this edition they want to create distinctly different settings [...]
I see no evidence of this.
FR: Kitchen Sink Fantasy & a legacy setting.
Eberron: Ditto.
PoL: Kitchen Sink Fantasy... but hey! It's new! Ripe for eventual overdevelopment!
Dark Sun: Swords & Sorcery & (P)Sionics. But it's a legacy setting.
I'm sure there will be complaints that the first three have different "feels", but I posit that they are really just 3 facets of the same thing.
There's still Burlew's and Toomey's runner up settings that won in 2002. However, I'd be willing to bet that some of their ideas have already seen print in 4e. I'm sure the most creative pieces were stripped and placed somewhere in the 4e framework.
This is a cogent point, and one I almost noted when I mentioned Eberron in my post above. They had literally THOUSANDS of choices (though not all good) for settings, and they picked one which was pretty similar to what they already had. This makes me wonder what the other 2 were like. They probably aren't too different than Kitchen Sink Fantasy, but one may hope.
Its gonna be Dragon Lance or Greyhawk.
More than likely DL since it has the 2nd largest fan base outside of FR.
.....You mean like how Dragonlance was going to be the 2010 setting? :P
Personally it looks to me that they are either doing a new setting, fleshed out PoL, or no setting at all.
Hey, they name-checked Palanthas in the Demonomicon.
Seems to me that this edition they want to create distinctly different settings [...]
I see no evidence of this.
FR: Kitchen Sink Fantasy & a legacy setting.
Eberron: Ditto.
PoL: Kitchen Sink Fantasy... but hey! It's new! Ripe for eventual overdevelopment!
Dark Sun: Swords & Sorcery & (P)Sionics. But it's a legacy setting.
I'm sure there will be complaints that the first three have different "feels", but I posit that they are really just 3 facets of the same thing.
FR: Plain ole high fantasy
Eberron: Lightning rails, airships, mechanical beings. It's more steam punk than high fantasy, just instead of steam it's magic and of course it's not in the victorian era.
Dark Sun: Post-apocalyptic setting.
Points of Light: Doesn't even really qualify as a full blown setting.
I think the next setting will be more in league with the Shadow power source coming out, perhaps being Ravenloft.
FR was their big lead in with 4th ed,
Eberron was released after phb2 played catch up and got the rest of the traditonal races and classes out.
Dark Sun is the most psionic based setting, which works nicely with the PHB3 psionics.
Next is shadow, so why not something like Ravenloft that makes full use of the new power source.
My 2 cents.
I doubt that the next setting will be Dragonlance, if only because they keep incorparting elements of dragonlance for their PoL setting, and they keep it fairly generic (a small box to describe the full extent that the creature effects Krynn when they are specific.)
I think the next setting will be more in league with the Shadow power source coming out, perhaps being Ravenloft.
FR was their big lead in with 4th ed,
Eberron was released after phb2 played catch up and got the rest of the traditonal races and classes out.
Dark Sun is the most psionic based setting, which works nicely with the PHB3 psionics.
Next is shadow, so why not something like Ravenloft that makes full use of the new power source.
My 2 cents.
I would love it if you are right - I love Ravenloft!
And I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone say this yet: what about the Aquilus setting that's been mentioned in a few Design & Development/Ampersand articles? A recent one included a stylized version of the name. You know, like how Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, and all the others have their special way of writing their name on the book covers? Well, that water world got the same treatment. Same level of professionalism. I remember reading someone's post saying that they probably wouldn't go through all that effort of getting that drawing unless they wanted to make it an official setting. Now, the alternatives could be that the guy who wrote the article and drew Aquilus is an artist who can do that himself, or WotC is expecting to use it again in a few articles, but it's still a possibility. Aquilus in 2011?
Aquilus in 2011?
That'd be funny.
First, Dark Sun, a world without water.
Then, Aquilus, a word with nothing but water.
Then, they merge the two, desert and ocean, into BEACH PARTY 2012!
I presume 2011 will be wrapped in Abyssal Plague metaplot stuff. If I remember right the podcast talked about "the surprising return of an old foe" or something along those lines.
good call. the podcast hosts seemed quite pleased with themselves for what i find to be a tired riff (spellplague, yada yada) that holds more interest for WotC staff than for oldschool gamers like myself.
"but look! we've integrated this story into all of our products: novels, adventures, more $40 splatbooks with only 140 pages of content, etc."
yawn.
I figure well will know at GenCon. I figure it will be Greyhawk...
Something futuristic like Spelljammer might be interesting, but I think that a modern setting would be interesting too, like a setting that is modern Earth. There's plenty of fiction based off of a modern Earth where fantasy magic is in the shadows (Harry Potter, Hellboy, Wormwood: Gentlemen Corpse, the Cthulhu Mythos, etc.), and it might be interesting to see where the standard D&D races and such would "fit" into Earth. Bringing over the Feywild and Shadowfell mean that any Fey or Shadow races are easy to incorporate as being from a parallel dimension, but there's plenty more that can be done with natural races. Maybe Kalashtar, with their connection to dreams, are related to the Australian Aborigines and their Dreamtime mythos. Maybe Githzerai are grey aliens. Maybe Deva are the men in black. Maybe Tieflings have no horns or tails, blend in with normal people, and owe their infernal bloodlines to pacts that relative such as Ann Coulter or Glenn Beck made with Satan... (If you can't tell, I've already put a fair amount of thought into this concept.)
My guess: Kara-Tur.
Dude!, that would be kick ass!
Or not.
How long has it been since there's been a Mystara product published? Novels in the mid 1990s?
If I were to speculate on the 2011 setting, I would guess a Ravenloft reboot because of the Heroes of Shadow book. Much like they made sure to bring back the Psionic power source before bringing back Dark Sun, they will do the same with the next setting.
Pure speculation, but probably a revamped Star Frontiers based on 4th ed rules like the new Gamma World instead of a new D&D setting, so they can sell rebrand some of their Star Wars Mini's line and sell sci-fi based dungeon tiles.
I would have no problem with this. I played SF for a long while alongside D&D 1e and 2e and loved that game. If WotC did bring back SF AND made a living game out of it as well, I would make room in my budget for both that and LFR.
I think due to wizards limited time and resources it will be a reboot of an established setting as it tales alot longer to make a new setting from scratch. I am betting on DL or Grayhawk. Does wizards own the rights to GH or is part of Gyax's estate?
What makes you think limited time? They've had since the beginning of 4e to work out a new setting with 4e rules. Besides that, they've made new settings before. "It takes too much time to invent a new setting" seems really stupid to me. Also, there's runners-up from that contest that Keith Baker and Eberron won.
This year, I don't seem to have seen/heard much.
Don't they normally give or hide tips in Dungeon/Dragon? I remember last year's speculation was much more focused by that.
This year, I don't seem to have seen/heard much.
You know why, right? The speculation drove excitement and debates, and hype for the setting, and when it was revealed as Dark Sun, there was much rejoicing.
This year, they're emphasising Essentials first. You know why? Because it's likely that the new setting won't be an old setting, but rather either just more PoL material to turn it really into a full setting, or else something like Aquela (especially considering the Pirate Theme reference drop that seems to support an aquatic setting).
Look how many topics there are here and at EnWorld about Essentials. Compare that to topics like this one. There are far fewer setting topics, but that was the hottest topic last year. It's because what we have more previews of, there's more hype/doubt about. And ultimately, this all creates publicity, which leads to sales, because there's no such thing as bad publicity.
You know why, right? The speculation drove excitement and debates, and hype for the setting, and when it was revealed as Dark Sun, there was much rejoicing.
I was thinking 'Your Mileage May Vary' would be more appropriate. Not sure how to do that link thingie there.
I can't imagine them ever reprinting Grayhawk. I'm quite sure they're going to let that setting rest in peace with its creator.
Kara-Tur is part of FR, and so far they've been consistent in only printing what they said they would for CSs and stopping. Maybe some Dragon or Dungeon articles, but not a book. And let's not even think of how the boards would melt down when every single obsessive otaku on the boards didn't get their pet anime represented.
Ravenloft seems too limited for a CS these days, plus as stated it's already been assimilated into the core non-setting. I can't think of anything it would add to the game, either ... my experience was limited, but I can't recall any new races or classes it introduced. Definitely better suited for Dragon or Dungeon material.
DragonLance seems too generic, and the things it introduces that aren't generic are too annoying to exist (kender, tinker gnomes, gully dwarves or whatever they were called).
Although I don't believe the setting in 2011 would be Dragonlance, the reintroduction of a "knight (of the rose)" and a wizard who devotes himself to particular schools of magic fit setting specifics. Also, kender, tinker gnomes, and gully dwarves acting as their own races, each with a different racial power or trait wouldn't be terrible. It'd be like the half-giants in Dark Sun as updated goliaths.
Anyway, enough ranting. I'm on board to see the Points of Light setting explored and expanded.
So in short, they have to full a plate to hype a new setting and we are to distracted to speculate.
I figure the lack of hyping a new setting for 2011 is more a timing issue than anything. IIRC Last year at GenCon time, Eberron was already out so that left a lot of room for hyping a new setting. This time around, GenCon is going to occur a couple of weeks before the next setting is officially released, so they are still hyping that. Further, right now Essentials is right around the corner, occupying both them and us.
So in short, they have to full a plate to hype a new setting and we are to distracted to speculate.
You make an excellent point here. I had found it very odd that it seems to be so quiet this year apart from Dark Sun. Sadly, I am leaning towards the idea it will be this waterworld one but I can still dream of Ravenloft. ;)
I figure the lack of hyping a new setting for 2011 is more a timing issue than anything. IIRC Last year at GenCon time, Eberron was already out so that left a lot of room for hyping a new setting. This time around, GenCon is going to occur a couple of weeks before the next setting is officially released, so they are still hyping that. Further, right now Essentials is right around the corner, occupying both them and us.
So in short, they have to full a plate to hype a new setting and we are to distracted to speculate.
You make an excellent point here. I had found it very odd that it seems to be so quiet this year apart from Dark Sun. Sadly, I am leaning towards the idea it will be this waterworld one but I can still dream of Ravenloft. ;)
Ravenloft would be okay with me but I am hoping for something brand spanking new myself. I also can't help but speculate that with 'going retro' being all the rage with the new 'Red Box', that the setting (whose name I forget) from the OLD Red box might not be a possibility.
DragonLance... Not gonna happen without the authers in my mind.
Greyhawk... Yeah, the next one is taking it over and making it cry.
Points of Light... This may get the Gazateer treatment while a new setting comes out, or may be the setting supported for a bit.
Ravenloft.... The Board Game.
(Name Withheld) The runner up in the contest that Eberron won.... Might be interesting.
Planescape. I believe this can still come out at some point, even with Sigil having been detailed in the DMG2.
Daggerfall... Wouldn't a version of this be great?
Mystra... Uh, Really?
Spell Jammer... Wonder what they would change and if Star Wars would be able to co-inside with it?
Middle Earth... *snicker* Run little hobbi.... errr, Halflings... Not gonna happen, but hey...
And there might be others out there, but I am blocked.... help me out here.
And there might be others out there, but I am blocked.... help me out here.
Al-Qadim
Lankhmar
Red Steel
I'm hoping NO for all 3 of them.
Hollow World (though folded into Mystara).
But... what I would absolutely love is one or two thick hardcovers bringing back PlaneScape! Not that it would ever happen, sigh...
What was the Aztec one? And the African setting called?
What was the Aztec one? And the African setting called?
Maztica was part of the FR (though it may be in Abeir now, assuming that there _is_ an Abeir anymore.) Returned Abeir now sits where it did.
I don't think D&D had an official Africa analog. Nyambe was OK, and I do (did?) have Aesheba, but those are 3rd party. Are you thinking of the Living Jungle stuff? Malatra was also in the FR, but I thought it had more of a Generic Jungle vibe and a mismash of things from throughout the tropics and "lost world plateau" tropes (but I know little about it, so am willing to be corrected). Geographically it was south of Kara-Tur, which would point toward Mainland Southeast Asia, but that means jack squat.
Personally, as evidenced by my signature, I want a 4E Dragonlance more than any other setting, including the ones that already exist. Dragonlance is the only setting I truly want to play. I don't care much for Forgotten Realms and I run Eberron because the geographic region I chose to run in worked for my campaign arc.
The only other setting I'm interested in is Mystara. I would have actually been happy to see that announced along with the "Red Box" re-boot, as Karameikos was the original homeland of the PCs from the Basic Red Box set so it would have been a nice nod to more nostalgia.
I'm anti-Dark Sun, and pretty much anti anything but Dragonlance and Mystara. If they managed a space opera setting that included Jedi-like PCs and Sith-like villians, I'd be completely on board with that, but otherwise, I'm not a fan of any of the other settings produced by TSR/WotC. I do like Forgotten Realms fiction though, and haven't given any Eberron fiction a shot yet, but I've always mostly considered fiction and the game world two separate entities.
Not that I'd want either of those to make a return.... I'd still rather have an all new setting for 4e 2011!
With all the PoL flavor and fluff running through the races, classes, powers and monsters I think WotC is missing an opportunity to trailblaze into virgin territory. I'm burnt out on FR, Eberron and Dark Sun. I think 4e deserves something new and original for a core setting. In fact if WotC announced they were dropping all campaign settings and starting fresh with a 4e specific PoL setting I'd welcome it wholeheartedly!
With all the PoL flavor and fluff running through the races, classes, powers and monsters I think WotC is missing an opportunity to trailblaze into virgin territory. I'm burnt out on FR, Eberron and Dark Sun. I think 4e deserves something new and original for a core setting. In fact if WotC announced they were dropping all campaign settings and starting fresh with a 4e specific PoL setting I'd welcome it wholeheartedly!
How can you be burnt out on Dark Sun when we didn't have any official support for Dark Sun for all of 3.X?
I can understand FR and Eberron, but Dark Sun?
I'll just point out that Demonomicon (page 74) mentions Palanthas as a "legendary settlement" alongside Waterdeep (FR) and Sharn (Eberron). Make of that what you will...
Well Cyan Bloodbane was mentioned in Draconomicon 1....and we all know how that turned out the year after that book came out(Eberron)....and the year after that(Dark Sun).
Hollow World (though folded into Mystara).
But... what I would absolutely love is one or two thick hardcovers bringing back PlaneScape! Not that it would ever happen, sigh...
Really? Ok, don't get me wrong, I LOVE Planescape. Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape, and Eberron are my favorite four D&D settings. Now, when people tell me "Ravenloft" has been folded into the core I roll my eyes. It hasn't. It is popular propaganda that it has. The concept of the Domains of Dread has been folded into the core. But we don't have a single Domain of Dread article on an established Domain of Dread from the 2e Ravenloft campaign setting, let alone a Domain of Dread article (or publication) on Borovia (and thus castle Ravenloft) itself. Everything that made Ravenloft a campaign setting, its NPCs, its dark lords, its geography, its insanity and madness rules, its rules for slowly becoming a dark lord, rules for how being trapped by the mists changes the way some spells work, does not exist in 4e. Well, with one exception; Strahd has been statted in Open Grave.
Meanwhile, however, Planescape really has been folded into the core! We have a DDi article on the factions, and paragon paths for being a member of a faction. We have a writeup of sigil in the DMG 2. We have three books that amount to manuals of the planes. The book actually titled manual of the planes even tells you how to change your cosmology back to the erra of 2e, though you should have no problem running a Planescape game in the 4e cosmology if you want to. So, I am really confused, what more do we really need to run a Planescape game? Not that I wouldn't buy a Planescape book if they released one. I would! The more the better. But it isn't strictly necessary to have one to run a planescape game. All the material you need is already presented in the Core rules. Unlike, say, Ravenloft. If I want to run Ravenloft I have to go back to my earlier edition products and perform a conversion...
Correction Cyber-Dave. There are two things from Ravenloft that have been updated. Strahd in Open Grave, and the Darklord epic destiny from Dragon 372. That's how you become a Dark Lord in 4e. The description of the epic destiny even talks about you being merciless in your final battle, cementing the Shadowfell's hold over you, so that the Mists wisk you away, where you become the supreme ruler of a domain. If that isn't Ravenloft, I don't know what is. As for insanity rules, that doesn't feel particularly 4e to me, losing control of your character like that. So I disagree that it's popular propaganda that it's been folded into 4e. Because it has. However, folding it into 4e has not meant "updating things present in previous editions." Folding it in has meant "taking the basic premise and expanding it into 4e canon." The difference? Those who already know Ravenloft can expand upon the fluff. Those who don't? They're given a different starting point. Now, I won't claim that what we've got now is enough. There ought to be updates to 4e. But we've already got too many bits and pieces scattered through Insider. Anyone who did buy a 4e Ravenloft setting - they'd be getting stuff that's already been published in Dragon and Dungeon as well as new stuff.
With all the PoL flavor and fluff running through the races, classes, powers and monsters I think WotC is missing an opportunity to trailblaze into virgin territory. I'm burnt out on FR, Eberron and Dark Sun. I think 4e deserves something new and original for a core setting. In fact if WotC announced they were dropping all campaign settings and starting fresh with a 4e specific PoL setting I'd welcome it wholeheartedly!
How can you be burnt out on Dark Sun when we didn't have any official support for Dark Sun for all of 3.X?
I can understand FR and Eberron, but Dark Sun?
I was playing a psion/preserver and a gladiator before Bill Clinton became president. I've walked around this playground a few times. It's time for something brand new for everyone.
There has only been the one article, and it only dealt with the one faction.
While I don't think it will happen (at least, not in 2011), I want to see Spelljammer in 4e. It was way before my time, so I don't know anything beyond what Wikipedia can say, but I want to learn more. .
the Piazza forums have a forum just for Spelljammer, and my site has lots of art I've done based on Spelljammer ;)
www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/index.php
www.silverblades-suitcase.com/sj/htm/spe...
with them making ships as "creatures", and adding minions in 4th ed, it makes ship vs ship fights much easier! so they should bring it in, since it's mentioned.
However they'd need to put the SPelljammer ship's levels down a hell of a lot and do a lot more tweaking on how ships work
crew do not affect a SJ ship at ALL for speed, bar some rare designs, it's the helmsman that gives speed, not the crew, crew can improve manouverability or small speed changes with sails
this is a pic I did of a Spelljamme rship in the Astral Plane
www.silverblades-suitcase.com/sj/htm/pla...
small version
Correction Cyber-Dave. There are two things from Ravenloft that have been updated. Strahd in Open Grave, and the Darklord epic destiny from Dragon 372. That's how you become a Dark Lord in 4e. The description of the epic destiny even talks about you being merciless in your final battle, cementing the Shadowfell's hold over you, so that the Mists wisk you away, where you become the supreme ruler of a domain. If that isn't Ravenloft, I don't know what is. As for insanity rules, that doesn't feel particularly 4e to me, losing control of your character like that. So I disagree that it's popular propaganda that it's been folded into 4e. Because it has. However, folding it into 4e has not meant "updating things present in previous editions." Folding it in has meant "taking the basic premise and expanding it into 4e canon." The difference? Those who already know Ravenloft can expand upon the fluff. Those who don't? They're given a different starting point. Now, I won't claim that what we've got now is enough. There ought to be updates to 4e. But we've already got too many bits and pieces scattered through Insider. Anyone who did buy a 4e Ravenloft setting - they'd be getting stuff that's already been published in Dragon and Dungeon as well as new stuff.
We will have to agree to disagree. There is a darklord epic destiny. You are right. It is probably one of the least "Ravenloft" themed things I have seen. Oh, it certainly seems like it was inspired by the Darklords of ravenloft! But becoming a darklord should not be a good thing. Part of the whole theme of Ravenloft was that to become a darklord is to lose yourself to your own madness; to become an NPC. Becoming a dark lord should be like contracting a disease. The difference would be that dropping down the condition track to become a dark lord would not impose penalties the way diseases do, instead it would grant benefits. But a character who reached the end of the condition track would lose their character, as their character would become a dark lord, trapped in their own insanity, and the mists of the domains of dread.
And I am sorry, but one NPC and an epic destiny that doesn't really fit with the theme of the setting doesn't make a campaign setting. That is like telling someone that the stats for Elminster and the Chosen epic destiny make Forgotten Realms. When people say they want to see a 4e iteration of a campaign setting they are talking about a package of fluff that far exceeds the statistics of one NPC and the mechanics for one facet of the setting (a facet which, as I have stated, I don't even believe reflects the theme or tone of Ravenloft).
Also, madness rules would work just fine in 4e. I would model them off of the disease rules, though not identical, and I would not make them "control your character." They would impose penalties to your character, or impose forced movement at the time of the even which caused the madness. Before you say it, forced movement does not equate to "controlling your character." Plenty of 4e powers impose forced movement. So, we are talking stuff like rules for how particularly maddening events might impose effects like a -2 moral penalty to attack rolls (save ends), or being pushed X squares away from the source of the event. The severity of the effect would depend how far down the "madness track" (ala disease track) you are. Unlike diseases, no effect would be permanent. Rather, suffering from worse conditions on the madness track just means that when events that impose madness effects occur, you suffer from worse madness effects.
While I don't think it will happen (at least, not in 2011), I want to see Spelljammer in 4e. It was way before my time, so I don't know anything beyond what Wikipedia can say, but I want to learn more. Now, I know that it's been grabbed somewhat by the Astral Sea. But in doing so, they completely removed the Magic in Space! element that made it so cool. As far as I'm concerned, that's not Spelljammer anymore. Funny that I should be making this argument when I just fought against a similar for Ravenloft. Conclusion? I'm kind of a hypocrite. So I withdraw my last post. While I still believe the logic of that argument, and I believe WotC will follow it, I understand why it's not good enough for the huge fans of the setting.
Thanks for understanding, Omnirahk. And hey, good luck - I wouldn't mind Spelljammer either from the little I saw of it in play.
What is? The fact that Wizards of the Coast intends to give more emphasis on them in the future. We're still very young in the Points of Light setting. The setting has being gaining flesh ever since it's debut in 2008, but it still is very young. It's a new setting – it was intentionally vague, at first, to avoid foisting too much of a world on new players. But now it's time to do massive world expansion and detail. They've been gathering details up, and it's been swallowing a lot of iconic settings in the process.
Wizards Presents claimed the new setting was supposed to represent Dungeons & Dragons as a franchise: it was to inherit the collective image of what makes the game. So it's plucked concepts from Greyhawk, from Ravenloft, from Mystara, from Spelljammer, and from other settings. It represents what D&D is at it's core.
The fact that they stated out Strahd is more than a statement of iconic villains. They want you to use him in a game. It's not just about a hall of infamy. Notice that nowhere in Cyan Bloodbane's lore is anything from the DragonLance setting mentioned (though it's said he's featured in the War of the Lance novels from Dragonlance).
Everything is core. If you find it in anything but a Setting book, it's part of the core setting. That's a design goal of WotC's. Barovia is mentioned in Open Grave, unlike Krynn. That's because Barovia has a place in the Points of Light setting. It's now a Domain of Dread in the Shadowfell, and they're waiting for the opportune moment to utilise it in full, whether in a Super Adventure (though honestly, I expect the Temple of Elemental Evil for next years Super Adventure) or in a Domains of Dread book, or in a Shadowfell book or featured in some other adventure. Castle Ravenloft exists in PoL. It's a place.
I could be wrong, and I recognise this fact, and will admit it if I am, but these seem to imply that there won't be a Dragonlance or Ravenloft setting in 4E. They don't overlap locations in 4E from different settings. The Faerûn's Shadowfell is a whole different ballgame from the PoL Shadowfell.
These are concepts that have been wrapped into the Core Setting. This is NOT a cause for despair.
It means that they don't have to be isolated in a Campaign Book that competes against other Campaign Settings. It means that it can grown and intertwine with the other PoL material, and become even more a part of the core understanding of 4E.
Did you know Myconids were planned as entities in the Underdark as early as 2007? Or that Djinn were always going to return? If you read Wizards Presents, you'd know these things. I'm not saying you didn't. But my point is, WotC has a long-reaching vision for how the setting is evolving. Dao were mentioned in The Plane Below, but didn't make it into either that nor the Monster Manual 3. But they're part of the lore now, and they're certainly going to return. I don't know about Marids, though.
But my point is that the setting is young. Even if it isn't fully established by the end of 4E's lifespan, this is a setting that captures ideals that will almost certainly develop farther as the core setting for 5E as well. It's the inheritor to Greyhawk, Mystara, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Planescape, and many other settings. The name Points of Light is a fan-based term. In truth, it's the setting of Dungeons and Dragons.
> franchise: it was to inherit the collective image of what makes the game. So it's plucked concepts
> from Greyhawk, from Ravenloft, from Mystara, from Spelljammer, and from other settings. It
> represents what D&D is at it's core.
If that is the case, they'd be better of with keeping Monte Cook on board and adopting his Ptolus setting :-)
Dark Sun is the perfect model of what I would like. Its relatively small area makes it easy to say that is what lies beyond the Sea of Dust...er...Sea of Silt in my beloved Greyhawk without having to figure out how whole continents fit together. Its unique, unifying theme gives me a reason to set a game there instead of simply using Nyrond. Its un-medieval culture avoids the conundrum of, "why do people way over there act just like folks in the Flanneass?"
In short, I want a setting that can splice into what I am already using rather than a setting where my only viable options are to replace my setting whole cloth or simply mine it for ideas.
We will have to agree to disagree. There is a darklord epic destiny. You are right. It is probably one of the least "Ravenloft" themed things I have seen. Oh, it certainly seems like it was inspired by the Darklords of ravenloft! But becoming a darklord should not be a good thing. Part of the whole theme of Ravenloft was that to become a darklord is to lose yourself to your own madness; to become an NPC. Becoming a dark lord should be like contracting a disease. The difference would be that dropping down the condition track to become a dark lord would not impose penalties the way diseases do, instead it would grant benefits. But a character who reached the end of the condition track would lose their character, as their character would become a dark lord, trapped in their own insanity, and the mists of the domains of dread.
Okay, so it's a disease that gives you benefits as you progress through it, with little hope of actually getting out, just maybe holding it off a bit longer than others?
Sounds like a wonderful epic destiny to me. Epic Destinies do not have to be something you choose for yourself. Yes, many of them are, but some (like the darklord) can be flavored to have been thrust upon the character instead. The character's dark ties and slowly degrading state of mind have landed it in a dangerous position. Now, he is getting stronger, but with each step to power, finds himself slipping more into the dread realm. When at last he completes his destiny, the mists have full control of him and take him off to his own demiplane where he rules as a mad creature of legend and woe. I would totally play a character that falls into that theme.
That said, I would like to eventually see all the domains of dread stuff compiled into a 4e ravenloft setting. Maybe with some new class builds and more detail on the vistani.
So after they released the stuff that would tie it to Nentir Vale / Points of Light in a World of Darkness, they're moving on to more of the Ravenlofty stuff.
If they made a book called Domains of Dread or Ravenloft I would be happy. I don't think they should compile the ones already released, but it would be nice if Ari Marmell worked on it (he's such as genius).
Dark Sun is the perfect model of what I would like. Its relatively small area makes it easy to say that is what lies beyond the Sea of Dust...er...Sea of Silt in my beloved Greyhawk
That's what I did in my Greyhawk campaign
We will have to agree to disagree. There is a darklord epic destiny. You are right. It is probably one of the least "Ravenloft" themed things I have seen. Oh, it certainly seems like it was inspired by the Darklords of ravenloft! But becoming a darklord should not be a good thing. Part of the whole theme of Ravenloft was that to become a darklord is to lose yourself to your own madness; to become an NPC. Becoming a dark lord should be like contracting a disease. The difference would be that dropping down the condition track to become a dark lord would not impose penalties the way diseases do, instead it would grant benefits. But a character who reached the end of the condition track would lose their character, as their character would become a dark lord, trapped in their own insanity, and the mists of the domains of dread.
Okay, so it's a disease that gives you benefits as you progress through it, with little hope of actually getting out, just maybe holding it off a bit longer than others?
Sounds like a wonderful epic destiny to me. Epic Destinies do not have to be something you choose for yourself. Yes, many of them are, but some (like the darklord) can be flavored to have been thrust upon the character instead. The character's dark ties and slowly degrading state of mind have landed it in a dangerous position. Now, he is getting stronger, but with each step to power, finds himself slipping more into the dread realm. When at last he completes his destiny, the mists have full control of him and take him off to his own demiplane where he rules as a mad creature of legend and woe. I would totally play a character that falls into that theme.
That said, I would like to eventually see all the domains of dread stuff compiled into a 4e ravenloft setting. Maybe with some new class builds and more detail on the vistani.
Thanks Malcolm. Much the point I was going to make. Or, if I could use my own words: in the old Ravenloft campaign setting, what happens when you become a Dark Lord? You gain power but become an NPC. What happens with an Epic Destiny? You gain power, but it provides a way to write you out of the game, a "what happens to this character afterward?" So it sounds to me like an epic destiny is the perfect description of Dark Lords in 4e. And you can use the same explanation to write them out at a level other than 30. I mean, Dark Lords are nigh invincible in their Domain, so they ought to be epic level. So if you're gaining the power of one, you're gaining epic power. It makes sense to limit the benefits to epic level.
Yeah, I'm probably reaching at straws but I can hope!
Is it possible that there is relevance in the fact that the Scenarios for August 16 use the phrase 'Ravenloft' and not 'Domains of Dread', which has been consistently used in the DDI articles?
Yeah, I'm probably reaching at straws but I can hope!
Pretty sure that is something completely different from Domains of Dread considering it is a free article.
Is it possible that there is relevance in the fact that the Scenarios for August 16 use the phrase 'Ravenloft' and not 'Domains of Dread', which has been consistently used in the DDI articles?
Yeah, I'm probably reaching at straws but I can hope!
These are new scenarios for the Ravenloft boardgame. I wouldn't put too much behind this being an indication of an upcoming D&D setting.
BTW, anyone know where I can find maps of Oerth that are detailed? Many thanks in advance.
Failing that, Dragonlance seems appropriate. Follow up a setting where the Divine power source doesn't exist (Dark Sun) with a setting where the Divine power source makes up entire orders of knights.
We will have to agree to disagree. There is a darklord epic destiny. You are right. It is probably one of the least "Ravenloft" themed things I have seen. Oh, it certainly seems like it was inspired by the Darklords of ravenloft! But becoming a darklord should not be a good thing. Part of the whole theme of Ravenloft was that to become a darklord is to lose yourself to your own madness; to become an NPC. Becoming a dark lord should be like contracting a disease. The difference would be that dropping down the condition track to become a dark lord would not impose penalties the way diseases do, instead it would grant benefits. But a character who reached the end of the condition track would lose their character, as their character would become a dark lord, trapped in their own insanity, and the mists of the domains of dread.
Okay, so it's a disease that gives you benefits as you progress through it, with little hope of actually getting out, just maybe holding it off a bit longer than others?
Sounds like a wonderful epic destiny to me. Epic Destinies do not have to be something you choose for yourself. Yes, many of them are, but some (like the darklord) can be flavored to have been thrust upon the character instead. The character's dark ties and slowly degrading state of mind have landed it in a dangerous position. Now, he is getting stronger, but with each step to power, finds himself slipping more into the dread realm. When at last he completes his destiny, the mists have full control of him and take him off to his own demiplane where he rules as a mad creature of legend and woe. I would totally play a character that falls into that theme.
That said, I would like to eventually see all the domains of dread stuff compiled into a 4e ravenloft setting. Maybe with some new class builds and more detail on the vistani.
Again, we will have to agree to disagree. The difference is in mechanics modeling tone. Becoming a dark lord is to be trapped. The mechanics of becoming a dark lord, in a tone true to the Ravenloft setting, should feel like stepping into a really big trap; in other words, losing your character, finding your character trapped on the other side of the DM's screen. The gifts you gain along the way are bait to your trap. The mechanics of picking up an epic destiny don't feel like walking into a trap as a result of your actions; the mechanics of picking up an epic destiny feel like a flat benefit. In this case the mechanics of the "dark lord" epic destiny don't model the narrative and tone of becoming a "dark lord" in the Ravenloft campaign setting.
And again, a few "domains of dread" that share nothing in common with the geographic of political details of the Ravenloft campaign setting, the stats for a single NPC from the Ravenloft campaign setting, and a epic destiny whose fluff is tied to the Ravenloft campaign setting, but whose tone is completely anti-thetical to the Ravenloft campaign setting, does not make a Ravenloft campaign setting which is "folded into the core."
Again, we will have to agree to disagree. The difference is in mechanics modeling tone. Becoming a dark lord is to be trapped. The mechanics of becoming a dark lord, in a tone true to the Ravenloft setting, should feel like stepping into a really big trap; in other words, losing your character, finding your character trapped on the other side of the DM's screen. The gifts you gain along the way are bait to your trap. The mechanics of picking up an epic destiny don't feel like walking into a trap as a result of your actions; the mechanics of picking up an epic destiny feel like a flat benefit. In this case the mechanics of the "dark lord" epic destiny don't model the narrative and tone of becoming a "dark lord" in the Ravenloft campaign setting.
And again, a few "domains of dread" that share nothing in common with the geographic of political details of the Ravenloft campaign setting, the stats for a single NPC from the Ravenloft campaign setting, and a epic destiny whose fluff is tied to the Ravenloft campaign setting, but whose tone is completely anti-thetical to the Ravenloft campaign setting, does not make a Ravenloft campaign setting which is "folded into the core."
I'll have to strongly disagree here.
While the idea of becoming "trapped in the mist" is definitely a founding element of Ravenloft, I don't see any logic in binding this notion with stripping the player of his control of the character. In no way turning the PC into an NPC has anything to do with the dramatic value of Dark Lords of Ravenloft.
If anything it's a metagame-ish approach to things that, while respectable, holds little weight in what defines fidelity to the setting. I really don't see a reason for assuming that players should never possibly play a Dark Lord; in fact, I find your choice of words ("walking into a trap") which is quite different from what I'm used to when handling Ravenloft games ("being victim of a curse" or "fulfilling a tragic destiny" would have been more fitting, for me), to be quite allusive to a metagame-ish approach that once again I can respect but not support. The Dark Lord epic destiny is probably too generic, but absolutely not antithetical to the old ravenloft feel.
I'll have to strongly disagree here.
While the idea of becoming "trapped in the mist" is definitely a founding element of Ravenloft, I don't see any logic in binding this notion with stripping the player of his control of the character. In no way turning the PC into an NPC has anything to do with the dramatic value of Dark Lords of Ravenloft.
If anything it's a metagame-ish approach to things that, while respectable, holds little weight in what defines fidelity to the setting. I really don't see a reason for assuming that players should never possibly play a Dark Lord; in fact, I find your choice of words ("walking into a trap") which is quite different from what I'm used to when handling Ravenloft games ("being victim of a curse" or "fulfilling a tragic destiny" would have been more fitting, for me), to be quite allusive to a metagame-ish approach that once again I can respect but not support. The Dark Lord epic destiny is probably too generic, but absolutely not antithetical to the old ravenloft feel.
We will have to agree to disagree then. Being "trapped in the mist" was, as you noted, a founding element of Ravenloft. Most denizens were not trapped intentionally. The mists were specifically designed to trap the Dark Lords. I believe that a game's mechanics should model its fluff and tone. The point of RPG's is to use mechanics to model a narrative. The narrative of a Dark Lord is one of being trapped in a prison due to your epically evil acts. I don't think it is an appropriate role for a PC to play. I don't think it is approriate to mechanically model that narrative via a set of benefits. Certainly the bait that leads one down the path to becoming a Dark Lord can be modeled as a set of benefits. But actually becoming a Dark Lord should, rather, be mechanically modeled so that it feels exactly like what it is; it is a horrible thing that you really don't want to happen to your character. Once you become a Dark Lord you move right out of heroic protagonist role and into villain/setting's background role. You become a fixture of the world who no longer has any control over your own destiny. You become an NPC.
If you don't agree with me that is fine, but then we are just not going to agree. And again, one NPC and one epic destiny don't make a campaign setting...
If you don't agree with me that is fine, but then we are just not going to agree. And again, one NPC and one epic destiny don't make a campaign setting...
My experience was quite different. We had a game where we managed (through DM fiat and a fairly epic case of "beginner's luck") to kill Strahd and install some sort of Church-based "democracy" in Barovia. The party's paladin (he made sense, don't worry) was faced with the contradictions of being an holy man in an unholy place, and that led him to become something probably worse than what he had been fighting.
Long story short, in the end he became the domain's Dark Lord, and when he realized what he had become, he tried to take his life... and became a revenant Dark Lord.
It was short lived, but completely worth playing.
Remember that an epic destiny is fundamentally the character's sunset boulevard. Once you're done with your destiny and lvl 30, you either die or disappear or become an NPC. The Dark Lord epic destiny works similarly - in a Ravenloft perspective, you sort of get to play being a Dark Lord but once you complete your journey, you become trapped in your domain.
As for Ravenloft being much more that what's been introduced in 4e so far, I completely agree. However, I would completely support the idea of introducing Ravenloft as a part of the Shadowfell. Ravenloft was part of fundamentally every game I played - Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Planescape, even Darksun. I think it's the way Ravenloft works best, not as a standalone setting but as something you can tap into as a full setting or as an epic delve. Few things were more epic than our resident bard player going "Oh god, we just ended up in Ravenloft!".
If you don't agree with me that is fine, but then we are just not going to agree. And again, one NPC and one epic destiny don't make a campaign setting...
My experience was quite different. We had a game where we managed (through DM fiat and a fairly epic case of "beginner's luck") to kill Strahd and install some sort of Church-based "democracy" in Barovia. The party's paladin (he made sense, don't worry) was faced with the contradictions of being an holy man in an unholy place, and that led him to become something probably worse than what he had been fighting.
Long story short, in the end he became the domain's Dark Lord, and when he realized what he had become, he tried to take his life... and became a revenant Dark Lord.
It was short lived, but completely worth playing.
Remember that an epic destiny is fundamentally the character's sunset boulevard. Once you're done with your destiny and lvl 30, you either die or disappear or become an NPC. The Dark Lord epic destiny works similarly - in a Ravenloft perspective, you sort of get to play being a Dark Lord but once you complete your journey, you become trapped in your domain.
I see where you are coming from. But I think your experiences are colored by a fairly unusual Ravenloft experience. In a traditional Ravenloft game that Paladin should have become an NPC, the player should have created a new character, and the group would have continued by trying to take down their one time ally. Still, I do see your point.
As for Ravenloft being much more that what's been introduced in 4e so far, I completely agree. However, I would completely support the idea of introducing Ravenloft as a part of the Shadowfell. Ravenloft was part of fundamentally every game I played - Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Planescape, even Darksun. I think it's the way Ravenloft works best, not as a standalone setting but as something you can tap into as a full setting or as an epic delve. Few things were more epic than our resident bard player going "Oh god, we just ended up in Ravenloft!".
I have no issue with Borovia, and all the other Domains of Dread of Ravenloft, being located in the shadowfell in the 4e incarnation of the setting. But I would like to see a campaign guide for those Domain's of Dread. That campaign guide can outline how this particular setting actually connects to all the settings. That campaign guide doesn't have to be called a campaign guide. Hell, they can call it Domain's of Dread: Ravenloft. All I care about is that I am one day able to purchase a RPG product that outlines the 4e iterations of the fluff, geography, NPCs, and special rules, required to play Ravenloft in 4e.
I have no issue with Borovia, and all the other Domains of Dread of Ravenloft, being located in the shadowfell in the 4e incarnation of the setting. But I would like to see a campaign guide for those Domain's of Dread. That campaign guide can outline how this particular setting actually connects to all the settings. That campaign guide doesn't have to be called a campaign guide. Hell, they can call it Domain's of Dread: Ravenloft. All I care about is that I am one day able to purchase a RPG product that outlines the 4e iterations of the fluff, geography, NPCs, and special rules, required to play Ravenloft in 4e.
I agree with this. Maybe if/when they release the Shadowfell book, it will detail the Ravenloft we know and love.
I like the Shadowfell/FeyWild thing; I like the way devils are done; I like the Gods vs Primordials; I like the Abyss, demons etc. I like that Ravenloft, Sigil et al got rolled in. I like the history of Arkhosia, Bael-Turath, Nerathean Empire etc.
It's got pretty much everything I'd want from a standard pseudo-medieval, mid-magic setting, except a book which ties everything together in one place + maps!
If you don't agree with me that is fine, but then we are just not going to agree. And again, one NPC and one epic destiny don't make a campaign setting...
No they don't. That's why they're not a Campaign Setting. They're aspects of a former setting that was far smaller than most Campaign Settings that have been wrapped into the Core Setting.
The Core Setting is comprised of everything that's been released so far, minus FR, Eberron, and Dark Sun products. It's not a full-fledged setting in itself yet, but it will be. And Ravenloft is a key part of it. The Domains of Dread have become a key way of understanding the tragedies of history, and many are tied to the follies of the Empires of old.
Just because Barovia hasn't been written up yet doesn't mean it won't be. The fact that Strahd has been statted for the core setting is probably the BIGGEST clue that it's been wrapped into the core setting.
That, or hope to see it get a full write-up in a book on the Shadowfell itself.
I was at the WotC booth at Gen Con yesterday, picking up a copy of the Tomb of Horrors book. I asked the folks at the counter if WotC would be making an announcement at Gen Con about a new campaign setting in 2011. The answer I got was, "no - there's no campaign setting." Note, they didn't say, "there won't be an announcement" but "no - there's no campaign setting."
Now, this was a person who may not even know, but I found it odd, to say the least. I'd be surprised if it was true, but you never know.
Happy Gaming!
There was a FR book shown in another thread.
That don't count, as FR has already been done - as in decimated.
There is supposed to be a new one.
If it is true, I am pretty stoked...
IN YOUR FACE!
(I know that post's often fail to capture tone, so just to avoid confusion: I am not trying to bait, or actually insult. This post is meant to be a gentle Horatian quip fueled by how absolutely happy I am to see Ravenloft return as a setting. Even if Dark Lord is turned into an epic destiny, I am VERY happy. Playable ghosts and vampires also makes me very happy. This is great. This means that out of my favorit settings (Eberron, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, and Planescape) three have been released as full campaign settings, and one has had a lot of information about it leaked in other 4e products.
)"Ravenloft has been folded into the core. Ravenloft will never get the campaign setting treatment in 4e. Ravenloft is too small to be a full campaign setting."
IN YOUR FACE!
(I know that post's often fail to capture tone, so just to avoid confusion: I am not trying to bait, or actually insult. This post is meant to be a gentle Horatian quip fueled by how absolutely happy I am to see Ravenloft return as a setting. Even if Dark Lord is turned into an epic destiny, I am VERY happy. Playable ghosts and vampires also makes me very happy. This is great.)
I hear you! I've been stupidly holding on to hope since last year when I kept hoping that they'd announce Ravenloft. I got more hope when I heard about the Heroes of Shadow as well as the Ravenloft board game from last year's Gencon. Still, as you said, there was a lot of stuff about it being folded in without a single reference to the old domains apart from Strahd in the Open Grave. I'm just glad it's finally on its way.
Hello, Ravenloft scenarios!
I'd like to say that this isn't a Campaign Setting as much as a follow up to Gamma World. Yes, it can be incorporated into the core game, but it's much less a setting than a Genre Game connected with D&D.
Still, awesome! And I think I should be appologising to Cyber-Dave for my vehement refusal of it being anything beyond incorporation into the Core Setting. So, I'm sorry. I was wrong.
I still believe that Ravenloft is meant to be part of the core setting as well, though.
Quoted from the other thread.
Life is good sometimes. Shadowfell box set followed by Ravenloft. There are posts on ENWorld saying that vampires and whatnot will be playable. 
Well, I don't know if the information is legit or not, but it is floating around the boards that the 2011 setting will in fact be Ravenloft. Supposedly it will also include playable ghosts and vampires.
If it is true, I am pretty stoked...
I must agree with this sentiment.
Ravenloft fills a niche that no other campaign setting adequately can. I look forward to seeing what they do in regard to playable ghosts/vamps/thropes/flesh golems etc. Ravenloft is the first campaign setting I plan to purchase (the preceeding ones just didn't appeal enough to me to have to wedge them into my limited budget).
Bring out your undead! Ravenloft is coming home to roost.
A little like Cyber-Dave, I think people need to lay off settings that don't SCREAM design space, because WotC just showed us that they are more than capable of thinking outside of the box (or in the box, in Ravenloft's case). This opens up a whole new space for settings like Dragonlance, Birthright(I could see this as a very complicated version of Risk with character sheets), or Mystara. Heck, I could even see an Oriental Adventures.
Good show, WotC, good show. Now do Dragonlance in 2012!
Now do Dragonlance in 2012!
That was (kinda sorta maybe) hinted at in one of the seminars. To paraphrase, "there is a plan" (nudge nudge wink wink) for Dragonlance, but you won't see anything other than a continuation of the novels in 2011.
This might be a good secondary market for Wizards, sorta like having a "Vampire, the Masquary" type of deal, and may end up with follow up books if it sells well enough.
Am I right in thinking you were at that seminar where Dragonlance was mentioned? If so, is my interpretation above accurate, do you think? It sounded from the audio recording as though the speaker was hinting that someting other than novels would be done for DL after 2011, but somebody who was actually there would have a better idea. Did his mention of there being "a plan" seem like a hint, or was he just blowing the questioner off?
Until now.
What an amazing lineup for 2011. Wizards assured they will take a lot of my money again next year after a lighter showing this year. Well done.
I'm really really hopeful about Dragonlance in 2012 though. That's the campaign I want to run/play. Please, please, please WotC, please make it happen!
It's a good move, and it hits another fan base that has been clamoring for this. First Dark Sun, now Ravenloft, fourth is doing a good job.
@thaX:
Am I right in thinking you were at that seminar where Dragonlance was mentioned? If so, is my interpretation above accurate, do you think? It sounded from the audio recording as though the speaker was hinting that someting other than novels would be done for DL after 2011, but somebody who was actually there would have a better idea. Did his mention of there being "a plan" seem like a hint, or was he just blowing the questioner off?
I believe that something is afoot in this front, but I have doubts about the setting getting released. I envision new novels and official support for the Living campaign, but that is just me with an overactive imagination. The question really was glossed over, and to be honest I doubt he could say anything about it if he knew of plans beyond 2011. The Spoiler for the Singblade seemed to be spontanious and might have been an intentional slip when he shifted through the notes for the Neverwinter release.
I believe that something is afoot in this front, but I have doubts about the setting getting released. I envision new novels and official support for the Living campaign, but that is just me with an overactive imagination. The question really was glossed over, and to be honest I doubt he could say anything about it if he knew of plans beyond 2011. The Spoiler for the Singblade seemed to be spontanious and might have been an intentional slip when he shifted through the notes for the Neverwinter release.
Fair enough.
Was his (it was Bill Slavicsek, right?) joking about having all this stuff he wasn't allowed to tell us as annoying in person as it is listening to the audio recording?
Wizards held a D&D Seminar on Saturday, for the express purpose of telling people what was coming down the pipe and he kept saying "I can't tell you."?
I mean, I realize, some stuff is two years from release and stuff, but instead of going "This is NDA", you SHOULD be saying something to the effect of "Hey, I can't get into details, but we are looking a book for This and That."
There is such a thing as being too secretive. It's bitten them in the @$$ before, when they kept the 4E project under wraps for two years, denying they were doing anything and then announcing it to the world and basically say "Yea, we lied for the last two years." It's a flippin' GAME, people! You OWN the rights to all these intellectual properties, so no one can steal the idea from you before you publish it! WHY THE SECRECY?
[/rant]
Sorry, just that it really gets to me sometime. I can understand NDAs for projects when you're preparing to launch something new and don't want to be undercut by your competion. But when you're talking about the fact that no-one else can do anything with the Dragonlance or Planeshift products without getting sued by WotC, why do you feel the need to say "Hey, it's a secret!"? Really? We're fans of the settings & such. We pretty much know what's going to be in the books already (Hmm... what races could they POSSIBLY put in DL? Kender? Irdu? Draconians? OMG! I'll never figure it out!).
Get over it WotC. The only reason to hold back information is a false sense of setting the fans up to be excited and hang on your every word. It's a blatant and desperate need for attention, it's not even marketing. Marketing is telling your fans what you're plans are for a setting/product so you can then determine the overall anticipation (or lack of) for that product. That way, you can see what the market might be like for it before you start serious production.
I mean, I realize, some stuff is two years from release and stuff, but instead of going "This is NDA", you SHOULD be saying something to the effect of "Hey, I can't get into details, but we are looking a book for This and That."
I have listened to the podcast and it was "Hey, I can't get into details, but we are looking a book for This and That."
I mean, I realize, some stuff is two years from release and stuff, but instead of going "This is NDA", you SHOULD be saying something to the effect of "Hey, I can't get into details, but we are looking a book for This and That."
I have listened to the podcast and it was "Hey, I can't get into details, but we are looking a book for This and That."
Oh.
Okay, well then cool. :D
So, mostly, he told us what he could, but there was some little stuff that the Q's was over reaching with and he simply could not go into.
Sometimes those old settings are awesome because their old, and sometimes you just have to say "WotC, hands off my setting"
Can't speak for Dark Sun but FR has changed a lot a lot, and Eberron is truely fan supported right now.
Aquilla (SP?) seems like it should just stay in Dungeon or Dragon. When you open the pitch with "I had this great idea when i was 12..." I think back to what I was like when I was twelve and I have to laugh. So many bad ideas... and I have to question James' settings if his last one was a total flop. Eberron seemed like his creative zone.
With that said, Expansion on PoL seems the more logical of the choices. What sub genre of Fantasy are we missing? Low Fantasy right? ala Black Company?
I would just like to say to all those out there that have their favorite setting which hasn't been re done in 4E... Be careful what you wish for...
Sometimes those old settings are awesome because their old, and sometimes you just have to say "WotC, hands off my setting"
Can't speak for Dark Sun but FR has changed a lot a lot, and Eberron is truely fan supported right now.
Aquilla (SP?) seems like it should just stay in Dungeon or Dragon. When you open the pitch with "I had this great idea when i was 12..." I think back to what I was like when I was twelve and I have to laugh. So many bad ideas... and I have to question James' settings if his last one was a total flop. Eberron seemed like his creative zone.
With that said, Expansion on PoL seems the more logical of the choices. What sub genre of Fantasy are we missing? Low Fantasy right? ala Black Company?
Both Eberron's and Dark Sun's fans are VERY happy with the products we have recieved. So, this whole "be carefull what you wish for" thing is kind of silly. Only the FR fans are unhappy with the 4e campaign setting they got.
For 4th edition, there was way to many gods, the current (at the time) timeline was getting to the point of having peace and harmony with everyone but the Drow, and the magic being tied to a web was getting bothersome, even for 3.5.
Anything that was done to update it would have been met with disdain. I shrug my shoulders, the setting was getting way to comlicated for my tastes, and the (yes, I am saying it) Simplified 4th edition version is better for me overall.
Eberron really didn't change, cept some of the races are now in PHB's.
I mean, I realize, some stuff is two years from release and stuff, but instead of going "This is NDA", you SHOULD be saying something to the effect of "Hey, I can't get into details, but we are looking a book for This and That."
When things are this far out from release, saying nothing is that smartest move. When a product can easily be cancelled or changed, telling people that its in the works is a bad idea because it whips the fans (via the internet) into a froth. If they said they were working on a Dragonlance 4e project and then it didn't materialize for whatever reason, they would piss a lot of people off, for example. If they said nothing, it would be a non-issue.
There is such a thing as being too secretive. It's bitten them in the @$$ before, when they kept the 4E project under wraps for two years, denying they were doing anything and then announcing it to the world and basically say "Yea, we lied for the last two years." It's a flippin' GAME, people! You OWN the rights to all these intellectual properties, so no one can steal the idea from you before you publish it! WHY THE SECRECY?
I remember when 4e was announced and people on the boards were claiming left and right that the developers lied. I also remember when the "proof" was presented, the actual designer quotes about 4E from a convention, it was revealed that the whole issue started based on a statement as vague as "we aren't planning to release 4e in the near future." When people who weren't raging pointed out that this statement was made a whole 2 1/2 years before 4e was released, the "WotC lied to us!" conspiracy theory was pretty much debunked.
On the other hand, when 4e was announced, WotC promised that in the future they would be releasing a character visualizer and 3-d dungeon maker. When the product didnt materialize the nerd-rage was strong. This is probably part of the the reason why they don't give a whole lots of hints as to what future products that haven't been developed are. Getting people excited about something that may not be completed for one reason or another is much worse than not saying anything.
I would just like to say to all those out there that have their favorite setting which hasn't been re done in 4E... Be careful what you wish for...
Sometimes those old settings are awesome because their old, and sometimes you just have to say "WotC, hands off my setting"
So what are the options? Have WotC make the setting and have it not appeal to some fans or have no setting and have the fans have to make it themselves anyway?
@GhostStepper: What I was saying was that WotC isn't the only RPG company out there, and that some settings might be better handled with one or some of these other companies.
@Cyber-Dave: Maybe "be careful what you wish for" is silly to you, I can respect that. However, you're not the only fan Eberron fan out there, and if a fan from Birthright or Dragonlance gets the same kind of treatment that Eberron has been getting and feels the way I do about it, then yeah, I would say be careful what you wish for, because a cliffnotes of the setting and sparse Dragon and Dungeon space is probably all your going to get from WotC. Maybe thats all your going to want, but if you want more then that then your out of luck.
So, you are saying you would rather have no 4e iteration of the setting rather than just having the core setting without print released splat products? You are right, that does seem silly to me. But we can agree to disagree. What we are discussing is a subjective value judgement. There is no correct answer. Neither of our opinions are empirical... I should note, however, that the fan feedback from Eberron fans and Dark Sun fans has been, by far and large, positive.
As a hardcore fan of Birthright, I'd have no problem with it getting the Eberron or Dark Sun 4e treatments.
I think just about anyone would like their preferred setting to receive the Eberron treatment (I have not prior history with Dark Sun and have not read the new books[though I may get them] but I understand that they are top notch), especially since those books were emaculate. Personally, I would be ecstatic if Dragonlance received the Eberron treatment (it may in the future, based on the "plan" WotC has for it), and from what I understand the Dark Sun treatment is another good ruler to use.
@Cyber-Dave: Maybe "be careful what you wish for" is silly to you, I can respect that. However, you're not the only fan Eberron fan out there, and if a fan from Birthright or Dragonlance gets the same kind of treatment that Eberron has been getting and feels the way I do about it, then yeah, I would say be careful what you wish for, because a cliffnotes of the setting and sparse Dragon and Dungeon space is probably all your going to get from WotC. Maybe thats all your going to want, but if you want more then that then your out of luck.
So, you are saying you would rather have no 4e iteration of the setting rather than just having the core setting without print released splat products? You are right, that does seem silly to me. But we can agree to disagree. What we are discussing is a subjective value judgement. There is no correct answer. Neither of our opinions are empirical... I should note, however, that the fan feedback from Eberron fans and Dark Sun fans has been, by far and large, positive.
Perhaps this is a conversation for another place, but, one final thing, while it was clear there would be no splat products anymore for Eberron and future releases (a stance they are changing now I think) there was promise of support in Dragon and Dungeon. There has been, yes, some articles written but they were sparse and pretty random in content, not doing a very good job elaborating on the setting or themes of something as non-standard fantasy as Eberron. Better articles have been written, these were not them. That is pretty sucky to a fan of the setting and to someone paying for DDI.
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