Has there been any movement on WotC releasing PDFs again?
I finally broke down and bought PHB2 and the Eberron books in hardcopy, but they will sit unread probably until I either get the PDFs or finish reading the PDFs I have (Spinward Marches, Doctor Who, Silver Age, and soon Legends of Anglerre).
Truthfully, I think it is more likely that you'll see D&D books on an e-reader rather than released as PDFs since they are already releasing their novels like that.
I really hope not, this is the main factor why I haven't been pursuing 4e as much as I would like.
So you imagine that the PDF's are gonna be cheaper than the books? This hasn't been the case in the past, or not from Wizards at any rate. They dropped the PDF freebie when they couldn't limit it so that only the book owner would get it.
I think the closest thing is the DDi electronic tools, current and future, which has all the rules (including the crude from Dragon) already there. The Character Generator is a client program that is on your computer, with updates once a month for subscribers. (they call it a "Builder")
It is overpriced if you keep the service all the time, ending up being 75 bucks a year (or more if you don't shell out for a year at a time), but I imagine that the PDF's would be just as expensive, like if you actually bought the physical books.
Really?
So you imagine that the PDF's are gonna be cheaper than the books? This hasn't been the case in the past, or not from Wizards at any rate.
Huh? The poster didn't say anything about it being cheaper. Some people are willing to a pay the premium for a pdf because it work better for them than a physical book.
I'd personally like for WotC to again allow the option of third party companies like Paizo or themselves to be able to offer the sale of inexpensive downloads of products from the previous editions of the game at least.
As I recall, they used to have old edition pdfs available, but they went down when all the other pdf downloads went down. I know they at least had 3.5 downloads up at that time at least. I can't imagine they will release only the digital format of old books when they seem to have had the same issue(s) with them as they did with current edition pdfs.
As I recall, they used to have old edition pdfs available, but they went down when all the other pdf downloads went down. I know they at least had 3.5 downloads up at that time at least. I can't imagine they will release only the digital format of old books when they seem to have had the same issue(s) with them as they did with current edition pdfs.
Well they say the issue is that people are pirating them. That wouldn't be an issue for the out-of-print books because pirated version aren't affected print sales. The only logical argument for not making the old books available is that it competes with entertainment budgets and they want you to spend that on new stuff. (Well I suppose you could argue that they are going to have their own online store real soon that will give them better profit but they have been saying they would have that for Dragon/Dungeon since switching to pdf.)
So you imagine that the PDF's are gonna be cheaper than the books?
As has been stated, I didn't make any comment at so price. Mind you when WotC originally released the 4e PDFs they were priced more competatively than the 3.5 PDFs had been (the 3.5 PDFs were sold at MSRP, whereas the 4e PDFs were 30% off MSRP).
Basically I buy the PDF for every game I would like to buy. I read the PDF on my pocket PC / mobile phone and once read I buy the hardcopy. I find I read PDFs a lot quicker than just hardcopies because my phone is with me all the time. I use PDFs to prep a lot but use hardcopy at the table - although with 4e I was anticipating buying PDF only and referencing them at the game table on my Eee PC (I had issues re shelf space, but sold a load of books recently so its not so important.
Basically, I read the PHB and DMG for 4e in PDF, when WotC dropped PDFs I didn't bother pursuing 4e and my MM PDF is still unread. Now that I have cleared some shelf space and had some birthday money I finally broke down and bought the Eberron 4e books and PHB2 - but I would still like the PDFs for these too.
After the next few PDFs I have on my reading list I will probably read the 4e MM PDF - in contrast I still haven't read my 3.5 MM even though I have had the hardcopy for years.
I think the closest thing is the DDi electronic tools, current and future, which has all the rules (including the crude from Dragon) already there. The Character Generator is a client program that is on your computer, with updates once a month for subscribers. (they call it a "Builder")
The character builder is okay, but I can only use it on my home PC, my Eee PC is Linux and I am not allowed to install unauthorised software on my work PC (but I can read PDFs on both).
The Compendium I really didn't find useful - it wasn't particularly intuitive, it requires internet access and isn't that quick.
Dungeon and Dragon PDFs are cool, but I can buy a month membership once a year and download the past year's copies.
I don't find DDI a true alternative to PDFs.
Some of have tried to discuss pdfs. The thread is often deleted without warning.
Wizards has more or less decided the entire subject is taboo, as it leads to discussions it simply doesn't wish to acknowledge.
But for the record and this thread. I support the use of and the selling of pdfs.
I'd personally like for WotC to again allow the option of third party companies like Paizo or themselves to be able to offer the sale of inexpensive downloads of products from the previous editions of the game at least.
This would be good. I bought the OD&D books (Chainmail to Swords & Spells), and I've just realised I can't find the PDFs of Swords & Spells and Gods, Demigods & Heroes. I'm sure I have them backed up elsewhere, somewhere, but it's worrying that I have to worry about whether or not I still have copies.
With the number of books quickly growing in the 4th edition libary, I am one that is definately in favor of WotC bringing back the PDFs. I would happily pay top dollar for electronic legal copies of all the source material I have bought for 4th edition thus far. This way, I would be able to put these PDFs on my laptop and thus only need to carry the laptop and my dice, vs. having to lug 1000 pounds of books around.
I'd personally like for WotC to again allow the option of third party companies like Paizo or themselves to be able to offer the sale of inexpensive downloads of products from the previous editions of the game at least.
Agreed. I wouldn't mind if they didn't do it for 3.5 or even 3 (which a lot of people still play), but there's a lot of older stuff that many people would like to have but which is difficult to find. I doubt that there would ever be an updated version of certain old classic modules released, but I'd pay for them and update the rules myself. The PDFs from Drive-Thru RPG were quite reasonably priced, and I was perfectly happy to buy them rather than download them.
The main problem is that Wizards didn't find the risk of having Pireted PFD's take the place of actual books being sold worth taking, so they dumped the whole thing. It is sad to say, but DDi is the closest you will get.
Yeah, I am fairly aware of why PDFs were pulled, I just heard some rumours a while back that WotC were working on ways to bring them back; I was just wondering whether there had been any updates or progress on this.
I wouldn't mind if they didn't do it for 3.5 or even 3 (which a lot of people still play),
I would hope that if WotC did bring back PDFs they would also bring back the 3.5 PDFs they had been selling - I bought the entire Eberron 3.5 back catlogue in hardcopy because it was cheaper than buying the full MSRP PDFs - I had intended to buy the PDFs slowly over time; but then they were pulled and I was kicking myself for not buying them when I had the chance (the hardcopy still sit on my shelves unread)
With the number of books quickly growing in the 4th edition libary, I am one that is definately in favor of WotC bringing back the PDFs. I would happily pay top dollar for electronic legal copies of all the source material I have bought for 4th edition thus far. This way, I would be able to put these PDFs on my laptop and thus only need to carry the laptop and my dice, vs. having to lug 1000 pounds of books around.
My sentiments pretty much echo those noted above. Having the books in PDF (or potentially any electronic format) would make life much easier for me.
AJC
They make zero money not selling them. And they have zero impact not doing them on them being out there illegally. Those that are uploading copies, don't need Wizard's help.
Someone in accounting must not get out much.
I'm kind of surprised they never moved it in-house. They've already got an online payment system in place for DDi, if I'm not mistaken.
Heck, if they wanted to be really cautious, they could make it a DDi-only option.
Since price was mentioned, though not by the OP, I will say that WotC's original pricing seemed pretty stupid, being that I could get print copies off of Amazon for less than the pdf cost. Now some companies, like Goodman Games with their Level Up magazine, do that intentionally so that consumers are encouraged to buy from their FLGS, as keeping those stores in business helps keep the gaming companies in business. However, I doubt this was the case since the cheapest source was Amazon, not your FLGS.
Personally, I would love to see pdfs (or comparable form of digital media, like epub) sold again (albeit at a reasonable price). I don't like hauling around a lot of books (in fact right now I'm reducing my vast collection of novels now that I have a nook), and I especially can't take a shelf full of books overseas with me when I deploy, and while I'm there internet access is sketchy if available at all, so DDI doesn't offer a viable solution for me. I know there are also a few other corner cases out there, like a blind Air Force EOD tech that used the text to speech feature to enjoy his D&D books. And I'm sure there's probably plenty of other reasons out there. Some of us have even stopped buying from WotC in protest of this decision. While we may not constitute the majority (or else WotC would have seen a significant enough decrease in sales to change their policy), I do find it hard to believe they would not profit from selling digital books.
I defended and still defend WoTC's right and responsibility to protect their intellectual property by any means they possibly can.
How is not selling PDFs of out of print books protecting their IP? The only way its protecting their IP is to ensure people don't use their IP. But even then, the books are already available illegally. How is this protecting their IP?
For the purposes of this post, I'll concede the point regarding 4th ed books. But I'd love to know the rationale behind not selling PDFs of books they can't actually make any money from any other way.
At least one business was selling pdfs and not giving
People have been pulling out this boogeyman since the PDFs were pulled. I've yet to see a credible source for this assertion.
I defended and still defend WoTC's right and responsibility to protect their intellectual property by any means they possibly can.
How is not selling PDFs of out of print books protecting their IP? The only way its protecting their IP is to ensure people don't use their IP. But even then, the books are already available illegally. How is this protecting their IP?
They are not selling PDF's because they have no way to DRM it, making it so that it locks up if copied, messed with, or if somebody sneezes. The expressed purpose is to only give a single copy for every paid transaction. With how the computers are these days (and the complete failure of WinVista in this regard) that just is not possible.
If they sell PDF's, those would get copied, distributed to others (most likely the other members of the buyer's D&D group), and the sales would drop the book sales. Pricing is also a concern to Wizards, as it is expected that PDF's should be cheaper than the books themselves. If the PDF's are the same price as the books then the sales would not warrent their creation in the first place.
While there are copies of the books out now, Wizards can (and most likely have) shut down the torrents and sites that have these. Some are badly done scans of the books, ones that have no index and warp distortion where the page is going into the spine of the book. (I have seen this with 3.5 books)
Simply put, Wizards has looked at this again and agian. They set up DDi, and has abandoned PDF's for good.
People have been pulling out this boogeyman since the PDFs were pulled. I've yet to see a credible source for this assertion.
Someone linked to an article a few months after the pdf shutdown where someone from WotC discussed this in pretty vague detail. I don't have the link anymore so can't offer you much there. It also depends on how credible you consider that interview I guess.
If they sell PDF's, those would get copied, distributed to others (most likely the other members of the buyer's D&D group), and the sales would drop the book sales. Pricing is also a concern to Wizards, as it is expected that PDF's should be cheaper than the books themselves. If the PDF's are the same price as the books then the sales would not warrent their creation in the first place.
The books get copied and distributed to others anyway. As for pricing, yes people expect pdfs to be cheaper, but that doesn't mean WotC doesn't make as much money off of them. There's no printing costs, no shipping costs, and no local store taking their share of the profits (this assuming WotC does the smart thing and sell the pdfs themselves, thus taking 100% of the profit).
While there are copies of the books out now, Wizards can (and most likely have) shut down the torrents and sites that have these. Some are badly done scans of the books, ones that have no index and warp distortion where the page is going into the spine of the book. (I have seen this with 3.5 books)
No WotC can't shut down the torrents or the torrent sites. If it was that easy the music industry would have put a stop to internet piracy long ago.
As for the quality, yeah the 3e era books tended to be very poor scans, most (not all of course, but often you will be able to find multiple scans of the same book so you could shop around if you were so inclined) of the 4e books seem to be of much higher quality. I've seen (only out of curiousity of course) some that almost looked like professional pdfs, and nearly all of them were OCR'ed and hyperlinked. Some people really go all out, cutting off the binding so the pages aren't warped, using high quality scanners, making sure all the pages are straight, etc. And all it takes is one, and then it's out there. And it doesn't take long to do either. You could probably do an entire book in a single day if you were really that dedicated.
Simply put, Wizards has looked at this again and agian. They set up DDi, and has abandoned PDF's for good.
I really hope that's not true (not that I disagree, I just hope you're wrong). DDI is not a substitute for digital books (whether it be pdf or another common format).
and the sales would drop the book sales.
How? Currently all 3.5e books are available on PDF for free. Currently none of them are available from Wizards of the Coast in any format. How is selling a PDF copy of a 3.5e book going to decrease book sales?
While there are copies of the books out now, Wizards can (and most likely have) shut down the torrents and sites that have these.
Unless you have a news article to back this up I'm going to say you might be misremembering events. They have shut down no torrent websites. I think at best they've sued a couple of people who released PDFs of their books. The RIAA and MPAA haven't managed to stop torrenting websites. WotC has no hope considering they don't have a budget even approaching either the RIAA or the MPAA.
Someone linked to an article a few months after the pdf shutdown where someone from WotC discussed this in pretty vague detail. I don't have the link anymore so can't offer you much there. It also depends on how credible you consider that interview I guess.
Unfortunately without a link I have no way of deciding on the credibility. I can also be fairly cynical when it comes to analyzing what a company says. So while it may have seemed like they said it happened, they may have simply hinted and suggested in order to plant the idea that it had happened.
PDF's were reportedly pulled due to piracy. There was multiple threads on ENWorld where WOTC staff spoke about it in detail. WOTC also started legal action against some people accused of distributing a book on share sites, as well as some americans, their was a 16 (ish?) year old in the Philipines and one person in eastern europe somewhere if I remember correctly (showing it isn't just the big pirates they went after)
The guy from eastern europe posted frequently on ENworld and more or less said even though WOTC can try, they basically can't do anything to him because of the country he is in, becaus ehe has not broken any local laws by "sharing" his PDF. Also I have heard from multiple people pulling PDF's hasn't even slowed piracy down, if anything it made them more determined to stick it to the big guys.
Whatever the real reasons where for pulling the PDFs, if it was piracy, all they have done is take away a legitimate form of income for themselves and a way for the honest people of the world to have their D&D books in an electronic format.
The larger point to focus on is that Wizards would, if they had PDF's, most likely charge the same price as the books themselves. I don't see much of a market for full price PDF's.
Which is another stupid mistake on their part. A bad business decision regarding pdfs does not make the pdfs themselves a bad idea though.
I regularly encounter things available for download that are so worthless it beggars the imagination.
I have never once found something of merit that was NOT available for download (we are not including dining room tables, car parts a new shirt and stuff that is clearly not copiable
).I'm a wargamer, and I have heard the comments 'oh our crowd would never do that, too few of us, we support our industry'. Truth is harsh though, not one single wargame can NOT be downloaded.
There is no sector of the digital market that is safe or left alone.
Still, Wizards could just get over it and sell to those of us that really don't mind buying.
Some of us would buy.
Most of us won't pay 40 bucks for print AND 40 bucks for pdf of course.
We are supportive, not friggin stupid.
Wizards, you are idiots thinking you are 'preventing' piracy. Your decision has NO effect, none whatsoever.
There has to be a hidden reason that some executives have come to that is just not being offered.
Then again, it might be that Wizards is just stupid.
hey I've seen companies make dumb decidions in the past eh. it's not like they can't.
If they sell PDF's, those would get copied, distributed to others (most likely the other members of the buyer's D&D group), and the sales would drop the book sales.
The PDFs are already there and being distributed withing ~ a week of the release of the physical book without WotC doing anything.
While there are copies of the books out now, Wizards can (and most likely have) shut down the torrents and sites that have these.
Made my day. Companies so much larger than WotC that the could buy Hasbro itself with just the loose change they find in the couch at their reception have tried for over a decade (with more money than WotC made as revenue during the same time) and failed completly.
Simply put, Wizards has looked at this again and agian. They set up DDi, and has abandoned PDF's for good.
Do you have a reference or source for this statement? If it is true and WotC have given up on the idea of getting PDF D&D 4e products on sale again, I am saddened and will give up on trawling through forums and websites hoping for news.
However, if what you stated is just your own thoughts on the matter then I will keep checking by here.
I didn't mean for this thread to become another discussion about why WotC pulled PDFs and whether it was a good move or not. I only wanted to know whether there had been any news on WotC looking at bringing PDF products back to the market.
Hopefully this thread won't get pulled.
Do you have a reference or source for this statement? If it is true and WotC have given up on the idea of getting PDF D&D 4e products on sale again, I am saddened and will give up on trawling through forums and websites hoping for news.
However, if what you stated is just your own thoughts on the matter then I will keep checking by here.
I didn't mean for this thread to become another discussion about why WotC pulled PDFs and whether it was a good move or not. I only wanted to know whether there had been any news on WotC looking at bringing PDF products back to the market.
Hopefully this thread won't get pulled.
Don't mind thaX, he lives in a different reality from the rest of the world. Wizards did state at one point(don't have a link immediatly on hand) that they are still interested in doing digitl releases of their products and they were weighing several options. That was a while ago though and I don't believe we have had any word on that since then. Hard to say when we should expect any further word, but I'm sure we will get something someday.
The larger point to focus on is that Wizards would, if they had PDF's, most likely charge the same price as the books themselves. I don't see much of a market for full price PDF's.
Which is another stupid mistake on their part. A bad business decision regarding pdfs does not make the pdfs themselves a bad idea though.
I have a hard time thinking that someone would be OK with purchasing both a book and PDF at full price. What I would do is to have the PDFs priced somewhere near full normally, but if you buy a physical book, you will receive a coupon code. This code could reduce the price of the PDF significantly. That way, you can have your cake and view it in PDF form too
I have a hard time thinking that someone would be OK with purchasing both a book and PDF at full price. What I would do is to have the PDFs priced somewhere near full normally, but if you buy a physical book, you will receive a coupon code. This code could reduce the price of the PDF significantly. That way, you can have your cake and view it in PDF form too
They at one point were planning on doing something like this(pdf actually being free in that plan), but there were too many problems associated with the plan for it to be feasible. First problem that comes to mind is someone buying the book, using the coupon, and then returning the book. Or heck just entering the code on a smart phone while in the bookstore.
And don’t forget about the concept of keeping retailers happy. These companies spend a lot of time and money stocking product. If WOTC was to exclusively sell PDFs at 30% off they would justifiably have an issue with it. And if WOTC sold PDFs at full price, not many would buy them. (Yes, some would, but most would not.)
So you’ve got the problem of piracy and you’ve got the problem of competing with your best customers (book and hobby stores.) So I can see why PDFs just don’t make sense.
And don’t forget about the concept of keeping retailers happy. These companies spend a lot of time and money stocking product. If WOTC was to exclusively sell PDFs at 30% off they would justifiably have an issue with it. And if WOTC sold PDFs at full price, not many would buy them. (Yes, some would, but most would not.)
So you’ve got the problem of piracy and you’ve got the problem of competing with your best customers (book and hobby stores.) So I can see why PDFs just don’t make sense.
Other companies sell pdfs and hardcopies. According to Goodman Games, hardcopies still outsell pdfs, although pdf sales are growing. Book publishers sell normal and ebooks. Some people prefer one or the other, and some want both (personally I like to have both if it is something that is heavily referenced, like the PHBX or DMGX). Selling pdfs does not automatically screw the FLGSs. However, as digital books are likely to become more and more prominent, companies will eventually have to change with the times or go out of business, but by the time it reaches that point there will already be too much momentum in the digital movement for WotC to ignore.
And as for the piracy issue, that has already been beaten to death. Suffice to say, that justification makes no sense whatsoever.
Wizards, on the other hand, would lose money and, as the posters have elluded to above, T off the stores and distributers that sell the printed product if they was to offer PDF's.
Piracy is very much a consideration, Bone Naga, when looking at electronic distribution. I do see that a lot of companies out there, from gaming to movies, are over reacting to the threat of piracy to the point of putting crappy little programs in our CD's and DVD's that hurt our equipment and make it so that only the pirates can use the media. Ask anyone with a burned out DVD/CD drine what they think of Starforce, they will certainly tell you about it.
DRM (Digital Rights Management) has been fought against ever since Macrovision started to melt VCR tapes of Total Recall inside the player.
So Wizards has, for now, decided against PDF sales. Let us just hope they are not trying to put some type of DRM into it for the time it does come out.
Unlike Wizards, who has a network of distributers that get the printed product out, other companies may have trouble getting their own product into the stores. In this respect, PDF's is a way to get the product to customers that may not have seen it otherwise. This is why other companies do have success with such ventures, as it adds to their revenue.
I've never heard this argument before but it does make some sense. I've no idea what distribution involves but I can see how an easy path for getting books to stores might make other options less attractive.
I'd been looking at other gaming companies like Paizo who, in effect, give their pdfs away for free and still see profits.
Still, my active-duty, deploying-to-sea, e-reader-toting self wishes very very strongly for a way to get electronic versions of WotC's books which don't require an internet connection. I don't like Pathfinder any more than I like 4e D&D, but Paizo gets the lion's share of my gaming budget simply because the pdfs they offer are more usable by me.