Let the games begin!
LOL! They arent going to try to fix the failure of paragon multiclassing and instead come out with something new! Its like the Weapon Expertise "fix" all over again.
Actually, I think this might be more like the second half of what they initially planned. I remember reading prior to 4Es release that they wanted to have a system for "dipping" into other classes (the current system) and a more full multiclassing system. That second feature sounded more like the old 2E multi/dual classing system from the description, but that didn't make it into the intial set of books.
This might very well be that second form of multiclassing...sounds good to me. I'm curious to see how this works out
could split exp system work in 4e? I never even gave it a though, but since the balancing mechanic of the game is 1/2 level, it would still work.
but at the same time, features alone from two classes would be amazing(-ly broken)... warden/fighter would own up on defenders.
I would be so happy if the other Playtest was something to showcase that Psionics is definitely in there.
...my only buff with 4e multiclassing is that you cannot be a full hybrid...
I never understood this mentality. You realize that if you take all three power swap feats and then paragon multiclass, exactly half of your at-will powers, half of your encounter power, and half of you daily powers will be from your second class, right? Only a third of utility powers, but I fail to see that as a huge deal...
EDIT: Oh, and then of course there are the multiclass feats themselves which do give you class features from your second class...
Where is the calendar up? I'm no seeing it.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/calendar
one at-will from each (human at-will from either; half-elf at-will cannot be either); one primary class feature from each and one secondary class feature from each (previous classes get their features defined as such in a list on the side). Pick the encounter from one and the daily from the other. When you gain an encounter, gain it from the one you didn't pick last time and same for dailies. Utilities from either the first time and from the one you didn't pick last each time after. Similar class features (like armor bonuses) don't stack.
HP = lower of the two (to prevent wizard/warden builds from owning).
Surges = higher of the two (to make up for less hp)
Weapon Prof of both, armor prof of both (since you can still wield only 1-2 weapons and wear 1 armor at a time, this doesn't hurt them).
Implements of both (same reasoning as weapon/armor prof)
Bonus to defenses = your choice of which to apply from either class, but not both or a mix (too much math involved otherwise). So a Fighter/Bard could choose +2 Fort or +1 Reflex and +1 will, but no special blend of the two.
Trained skills = total of 4 trained class skills (5 if dual class bard spelled out), must take "free skills" first, then pick remaining from full list.
Multiclassing as a dual class character works the same as a single class character. you take the feat and any swap feats can replace powers you already have from your "class." Since you are two classes, you cannot take the multiclass feat for either.
Example Primary/Secondary features
Primary
Healing Word, Ritual Casting (Cleric)
Combat Challenge, Fighter Weapon Talent (Fighter)
Divine Challenge, Lay on Hands (Paladin)
Fighting Style, Prime Shot, Beast Mastery (Ranger)
Rogue Tactics, Sneak Attack
Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Pact, Prime Shot (Warlock)
Commanding Presence, Inspiring Word (Warlord)
Arcane Implement Mastery, Ritual Casting(Wizard)
Secondary
Channel Divinity, Healers's Lore (Cleric)
Combat Superiority (Fighter)
Channel Divinity (Paladin)
Hunter's Quarry (Ranger)
First Strike, Rogue Weapon Talent (Rogue)
Shadow Walk, Warlock's Curse (Warlock)
Combat Leader (Warlord)
Cantrips, Spellbook (Wizard)
Healing Word, Ritual Casting (Cleric)
Combat Challenge, Fighter Weapon Talent (Fighter)
Divine Challenge, Lay on Hands (Paladin)
Fighting Style, Prime Shot, Beast Mastery (Ranger)
Rogue Tactics, Sneak Attack
Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Pact, Prime Shot (Warlock)
Commanding Presence, Inspiring Word (Warlord)
Arcane Implement Mastery, Ritual Casting(Wizard)
Secondary
Channel Divinity, Healers's Lore (Cleric)
Combat Superiority (Fighter)
Channel Divinity (Paladin)
Hunter's Quarry (Ranger)
First Strike, Rogue Weapon Talent (Rogue)
Shadow Walk, Warlock's Curse (Warlock)
Combat Leader (Warlord)
Cantrips, Spellbook (Wizard)
How dual classing will really work:
Only humans can be dual-class characters. To be dual-classed, the character must have a score of 15 or more in the primary stat of his first class, and a score of 17 or more in the primary stat of any classes he switches to. The character selects one class to begin his adventuring life. He can advance in this class as many levels as he desires before switching to another class; there is no cut-off point beyond which a character cannot switch. However, he must attain at least 2nd level in his current class before changing to another class. A character can acquire up to four classes, one from each role (defender, striker, leader, and controller), as long as he has the ability scores and wants to makes the change.
Any time after reaching 2nd level, a human character can enter a new character class, provided he has a score of 17 or better in the primary stat of the new class. After switching to a new class, the character no longer earns experience points in his previous character class and he can no longer advance in level in that class. Nor can he switch back to his first class at a later date, hoping to resume his advancement where he left off. Once he leaves a class he has finished his studies in it. Instead, he starts over in a new class, at 1st level with 0 experience points, but he does retain his previous healing surges and hit points. He gain the class features of the new class. He does not gain or lose any points on his ability scores. The character applies the half level modifier of his new level where appropriate.
This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still has, at his fingertips, all the class features, proficiencies, skills, and powers of his old class. But if he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience for that encounter, and only half experience for the adventure. (The character is trying to learn new ways of doing things; by slipping back to his old methods, he has set back his learning in his new character class.) This restriction is lifted when the character reaches a higher level in his new class than his maximum level in any of his previous classes. At that point, the restrictions are dropped.
(If you know what this joke is in reference too, you get a cookie.)
I never understood this mentality. You realize that if you take all three power swap feats and then paragon multiclass, exactly half of your at-will powers, half of your encounter power, and half of you daily powers will be from your second class, right? Only a third of utility powers, but I fail to see that as a huge deal...
EDIT: Oh, and then of course there are the multiclass feats themselves which do give you class features from your second class...
The problem is at the Heroic tier, where most of your feats are devoted to this, and you still just feel like a dabbler. By paragon, multiclassing as it is works really nicely, in my experience.
The problem is at the Heroic tier, where most of your feats are devoted to this, and you still just feel like a dabbler. By paragon, multiclassing as it is works really nicely, in my experience.
At heroic tier, I still feel like a dabbler in my own class, so I don't think that's as big a problem as people make it out to be...
At heroic tier, I still feel like a dabbler in my own class, so I don't think that's as big a problem as people make it out to be...
I don't follow... How do you feel like you're dabbling in a class when everything you do is an ability granted to you by said class?
A level 3 Warlock/Ranger doesn't really feel like much else than a warlock when his only "ranger" thing he can pick up is Hunter's Quarry once per encounter and some nature skill training - hence "dabbling".
I don't follow... How do you feel like you're dabbling in a class when everything you do is an ability granted to you by said class?
I guess it's just a personal thing then. I just don't feel like you can mechanically do much of anything at Heroic tier other than spam at-wills, at least early Heroic tier anyways. I haven't played enough at late heroic tier to form an opinion there...
A level 3 Warlock/Ranger doesn't really feel like much else than a warlock when his only "ranger" thing he can pick up is Hunter's Quarry once per encounter and some nature skill training - hence "dabbling".
I don't look purely to mechanics to define what my character is in flavor, so I guess that's just not really a problem for me... But this sounds like it's going to turn into one of those BS roleplaying vs rollplaying arguments, so I'll just call it a difference of opinion and leave it alone. All I'm saying it I think multiclassing in its current form is perfectly adequate and don't understand the complaints...
(If you know what this joke is in reference too, you get a cookie.)
Cookies all around then? I mean, honestly, who doesn't recognize the sparkling prose of the AD&D (1st ed) PH when they see it? ;)
Cookies all around then? I mean, honestly, who doesn't recognize the sparkling prose of the AD&D (1st ed) PH when they see it? ;)
Yeah, it's pretty sad thatI haven't even seen so much as a picture of the 1st ed books...EVER...and yet even I knew where that half-witted nonsensical dribble of a rule came from.
I'm kinda thinking Dual classing will be something like 3.5 gestalt...very lite.
The powers are easy to divvy up...it's the features that are problematic. Some are just more powerful than others, and some have value ONLY because of other features of the class, or specific powers used in combat...which makes them all variable in usefulness. They should've rigged ALL class features by the same measuring stick...simply a slightly longer one than powers.
But, I guess we'll see what they do with it.
Cookies all around then? I mean, honestly, who doesn't recognize the sparkling prose of the AD&D (1st ed) PH when they see it? ;)
*BUZZ* nope, it's from Second Edition! Come on man! Don't make me take away your nerd cred!
Also, 4E Multiclassing is almost perfect as-is; the only possible change required is the ability to acquire more class features, which should become easier with every new set of multiclass feats.
I'm seeing something like...
one at-will from each (human at-will from either; half-elf at-will cannot be either); one primary class feature from each and one secondary class feature from each (previous classes get their features defined as such in a list on the side). Pick the encounter from one and the daily from the other. When you gain an encounter, gain it from the one you didn't pick last time and same for dailies. Utilities from either the first time and from the one you didn't pick last each time after. Similar class features (like armor bonuses) don't stack.
HP = lower of the two (to prevent wizard/warden builds from owning).
Surges = higher of the two (to make up for less hp)
Weapon Prof of both, armor prof of both (since you can still wield only 1-2 weapons and wear 1 armor at a time, this doesn't hurt them).
Implements of both (same reasoning as weapon/armor prof)
Bonus to defenses = your choice of which to apply from either class, but not both or a mix (too much math involved otherwise). So a Fighter/Bard could choose +2 Fort or +1 Reflex and +1 will, but no special blend of the two.
Trained skills = total of 4 trained class skills (5 if dual class bard spelled out), must take "free skills" first, then pick remaining from full list.
Multiclassing as a dual class character works the same as a single class character. you take the feat and any swap feats can replace powers you already have from your "class." Since you are two classes, you cannot take the multiclass feat for either.Example Primary/Secondary featuresPrimary
Healing Word, Ritual Casting (Cleric)
Combat Challenge, Fighter Weapon Talent (Fighter)
Divine Challenge, Lay on Hands (Paladin)
Fighting Style, Prime Shot, Beast Mastery (Ranger)
Rogue Tactics, Sneak Attack
Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Pact, Prime Shot (Warlock)
Commanding Presence, Inspiring Word (Warlord)
Arcane Implement Mastery, Ritual Casting(Wizard)
Secondary
Channel Divinity, Healers's Lore (Cleric)
Combat Superiority (Fighter)
Channel Divinity (Paladin)
Hunter's Quarry (Ranger)
First Strike, Rogue Weapon Talent (Rogue)
Shadow Walk, Warlock's Curse (Warlock)
Combat Leader (Warlord)
Cantrips, Spellbook (Wizard)
*BUZZ* nope, it's from Second Edition! Come on man! Don't make me take away your nerd cred!
Haha, you know, this is exactly what sprang to mind when the term Dual Class showed up on the page. I was like 'Wut? Dualclassing is so pointless!'
I wonder if they mean like in the old sense of 2E Multiclassing though. That could be kinda cool, if done right. Or if they broke up class features and let you take a portion of class features from either class or something odd like that, like the Dual Class thread floating around on the forums yet. Its powerful, but I have yet to find any really big problems with it.
*BUZZ* nope, it's from Second Edition! Come on man! Don't make me take away your nerd cred!
That's what I get for not double-checking, of course. In my defense, though, the rule is the same, they just changed the wording a bit between editions. :embarrass
There is a 100% chance of this article being interesting material, and a 50% chance of it being entirely broken.
I see a 45% chance of the new option being clearly inferior to current multiclassing, thus no one every taking it. There is a 45% chance that it will be clearly more powerful than current multiclassing and you are going to see every class in the game dual classed into Avenger so that everyone can roll twice to hit. There is a 10% chance that it will somehow be different from multiclassing, yet adequately balanced against it.
This man speaks wisdom. Although I'm betting they allow you to only pick two class features, one from each class, and similar abilities can't overlap. (No hunter's quarry/sneak attack or healing word/inspiring word)
that would make sense given the added versatility; but I think that may step on the toes of multiclassing, since it would only be a better way to do so with just one feature appiece. Maybe, though.
Oh, and ty much for the compliment, I try to keep things balanced if not always clear or obvious.
Wasn't Dual-Classing replaced with multi-classing or something? I only came into this hobby in '04, but this sounds a bit mind-boggling.
I look forward to the PH3 even moreso now. Monks and Dual-Classing. Should be fun.
BTW, there's a second PH3 playtest on the 20th, and we know it isn't the Monk 'cause that's for May. Wonder what else those crazy kids have cooked up?
I hope it is the Telepath!!!!
The truth is, I like the current Multiclassing for 'dipping', but its too feat-costly.
Maybe if the Multiclassing feat could swap an unlimited number Encounter attack powers, the flexibility might be more worth the cost? Likewise Daily attacks, or Utility powers. A Paragon feat that swaps At-Will attacks is great.
Also, itd be nice if 'Multi'-classing allowed 'multiple' - 3 or more! - classes.
For sure, Id rather the prereqs depend on level only - and not previous MC feats. The 'Initiate' starter multiclass feat is already a good stand alone feat for skill acquisition, but it should grant ANY skill among the class skills, in order not to punish redundancy or uselessness.
... Anyway, Il suspend judgment on Multiclassing til we can compare Dual Classing, to see what the strengths-and-weaknesses of each are.
Dual-Classing? I don't... brain hurts.
Wasn't Dual-Classing replaced with multi-classing or something? I only came into this hobby in '04, but this sounds a bit mind-boggling.
I look forward to the PH3 even moreso now. Monks and Dual-Classing. Should be fun.
In second Ed, there was Dual Classing and Multi-classing which were two different things.
Dual classing meant that, after a period of time, generally when you hit lvl 20, you could retain the powers of your first class, and start-over as a new class at level 1. This was only available to humans. So, eventually, a human could be a dual class level 20 fighter / level 20 Magic User.
Multi-class was available to any NON-human PC, but class combo's were restricted by race. You picked 2 (or rarely 3) classes you qualified for, and gained the benefits of both (or all of them). The difference was, you experience was split evenly between them, so you level slower.
As an example, A gnome could be a Thief-Cleric. An Elf could be a Magic User/Fighter/Thief. Consider them in a party with a Human Fighter.
If they all had 600,000 total XP here's how the levels would break down.
The human would be a Lvl 10 Fighter, well on his way to lvl 11.
The Gnome would be a Lvl 11 Thief / Lvl 9 Cleric.
The Elf would be a Lvl 9 Mage / Lvl 8 Fighter / Lvl 10 Thief.
This is all complicated by the fact that classes leveled at different rates in 2nd ed. Vastly different rates.
In 3.X these two systems were streamlined into a new system, still called Multi-Classing.
Characters leveled at a specific experience point value, but could choose to apply that level when gained to any class they qualified for, including Prestige classes.
The limiter in this system was that (with the exception of your favored class, by race) if any of your classes are MORE than three levels apart, you suffered a 10% XP penalty.
The PHB3 is going to offer class paragon paths, i.e. paragon paths that provide class features (like some homebrewed stuff in the forums). Here's what I think the fighter dual class will look like:
Fighter Dual Class
Prerequisites: Multiclass Fighter, Novice Power, Acolyte Power, Adept Power
Fighter's Action (level 11): You can spend an AP to recover an encounter attack power from either of your classes.
Combat Challenge (level 11): You gain the fighter's Combat Challenge class feature.
Fighter Power (level 11): You gain a 7th-level fighter encounter attack power. When you reach level 21, you can replace it with a 13th-level fighter encounter attack power.
Fighter Utility (level 12): You gain a 10th-level fighter utility power.
Combat Superiority (level 16): You gain the fighter's Combat Superiority class feature.
Ultimate Fighter (level 20): You gain a 19th-level fighter daily attack power.
Not impossible.
The way I'd blend 2 classes for an entire career?
#1: You MUST alternate picking powers from the classes. At first level you'd generally have 1 At-will from each class, an encounter from one of the classes, and a daily from the other.
#2: You'd be considered to be in both classes for feats, etc...
#3: Each class would have specified class abilities that are obtained and abilities that are not obtained. For the most part, PCs would miss out on the "choice" (as in selection) powers like Invoker Covenants, Fighter Weapon Talent, Wizard Arcane Implement Mastery, etc....
OMG, yes! I have been WAITING for this! Because, really, my only buff with 4e multiclassing is that you cannot be a full hybrid... and that is a pretty big buff!
You mean "beef", not "buff".
Still Dual classing is most likely to be similar to 2e Multiclassing as 4e multiclassing is similar to 2e dual classing (and if that makes sense to you just wait there is more :P). In all likelihood it will be a lvl 1 option only that you start off with two classes probably loosing a feat in the process and I'm going to wager that you either don't get a paragon path or have to take a special all be it broad paragon path build around the dual class system. It will probably be more restrictive as I imagine it will not allow you to multiclass (naturally) and there will probably be some level of other sacrifice (for instance lack of good paragon path features).
To be honest for the sake of the bard and some other creative circumstances I'd much rather see the normal power swap feats changed so you can take them more than once, but thats me.
Know what I just noteced on the calender.... Arcane Schools! My bet is that it will do for arcanists what the Gladiator article did for martialists!
I hadn't started thinking on what that would be yet, if you're right, all the better. But given that there is a dungeon adventure on the list also named Arcane School (on the 15th) I think its more likely just a fluff article about the institutions and what they do for wizards and other casters.
As for dual-classing, I think it will be an epic destiny option. You paragon multiclass to dip into at-wills, encounters, dailies and utilities. Then, you dual-class at epic to gain access to full-blown class features. Also, the epic destiny will likely add more encounters, dailies and utilities, and (hopefully) flat-out adding enough at-wills so that a dual-classed character has a default of two at-wills from each of the their two classes.
The major missing hurdle to fully realized multiclassing is class features. Replacing the epic-level abilities with class features is certainly more on-par than paragon-level abilities.
It will probably be more restrictive as I imagine it will not allow you to multiclass (naturally) and there will probably be some level of other sacrifice (for instance lack of good paragon path features).
I actually wouldn't be suprised if you were allowed to multiclass and dualclass. They seem to be opening the multiclass system up to new ideas, such as the weapon mastery system, and I could see them allowing you to still use these new systems. Certainly you won't be allowed to multiclass into your own classes. I could see them going either way with multiclassing into classes outside of your two primary ones though.
First, I really hope the second PH3 playtest article is the Psion.
me too!! Even if it is the Telepath or the Empath!! I want my Psionics!! :D
I actually wouldn't be suprised if you were allowed to multiclass and dualclass. They seem to be opening the multiclass system up to new ideas, such as the weapon mastery system, and I could see them allowing you to still use these new systems. Certainly you won't be allowed to multiclass into your own classes. I could see them going either way with multiclassing into classes outside of your two primary ones though.
You will have to forgive me, I was grasping at what restrictions came to mind in some vain hope that this system won't likely be broken (Knowing that it most likely will be broken or vastly superior to multiclassing). Given that the bloodline feats in the dhampyr article didn't consume your multiclass you are probably right though.
Know what I just noteced on the calender.... Arcane Schools! My bet is that it will do for arcanists what the Gladiator article did for martialists!
Aren't we supposed to be getting an article for April that expands on the number of familiars from Arcane Power.
Aren't we supposed to be getting an article for April that expands on the number of familiars from Arcane Power.
Thats on the 13th (second listing on that date), Arcane Schools is on the 10th. (first listing)
- Fully splitting levels between classes, like in 3e multiclassing.
- Something like 3e's 'gestalt' classes, squashing two classes into each level.
- A variant/replacement for paragon multiclassing
- A multiclass option for epic characters
- Something I haven't thought of.
I think the second and fourth options are most likely, but the fifth one can never be counted out.
Dual Classing - Simple name, many possibilities. It could be:
- Fully splitting levels between classes, like in 3e multiclassing.
- Something like 3e's 'gestalt' classes, squashing two classes into each level.
- A variant/replacement for paragon multiclassing
- A multiclass option for epic characters
- Something I haven't thought of.
I think the second and fourth options are most likely, but the fifth one can never be counted out.
your first option is possible, close to my guess. The second one is an interesting idea I'd not yet considered given my lack of 3e knowledge, I'll have to look into that. As for your third guess I'm not sure, its possible but I don't see it as likely given that paragon multiclassing seems to work well enough. On your fourth one I highly doubt that as I always considered the eternal seeker epic destiny to be more than what I would want in those regards. Finally 5, the most likely of all, even I must admit that WotC has the ability to do something completely unexpected by everyone, much like what they did with the introduction of bloodline feats with dhampyr.
My take on it...
The PHB3 is going to offer class paragon paths, i.e. paragon paths that provide class features (like some homebrewed stuff in the forums). Here's what I think the fighter dual class will look like:
Fighter Dual Class
Prerequisites: Multiclass Fighter, Novice Power, Acolyte Power, Adept Power
Fighter's Action (level 11): You can spend an AP to recover an encounter attack power from either of your classes.
Combat Challenge (level 11): You gain the fighter's Combat Challenge class feature.
Fighter Power (level 11): You gain a 7th-level fighter encounter attack power. When you reach level 21, you can replace it with a 13th-level fighter encounter attack power.
Fighter Utility (level 12): You gain a 10th-level fighter utility power.
Combat Superiority (level 16): You gain the fighter's Combat Superiority class feature.
Ultimate Fighter (level 20): You gain a 19th-level fighter daily attack power.
I could see something like this being the case, it seems more balanced than some options being discussed
intresting that you didn't include at will powers
but doesn't this just make it a slightly different version of pmc? I think it will be the same and also different.
perhaps with additional restrictions like power level limits or power choice restrictions
I guess we have to wait and see what they are generally thinking
Combine that with the use of the word "dual" (granted, a shout-out to previous editions, but "dual" has a connotation of concurrence, as opposed to "multi" which implies a an overall composite), and I think we're looking at a system that requires a choice right at character creation. At minimum, you'll have an at-will from class 1 and an at-will from class 2 at level 1.
The specific weakness of the current multi-class system is in the Heroic tier, because you can't gain any powers of the second class until 4th level, and don't gain any feel of a true hybrid until Paragon.
Combine that with the use of the word "dual" (granted, a shout-out to previous editions, but "dual" has a connotation of concurrence, as opposed to "multi" which implies a an overall composite), and I think we're looking at a system that requires a choice right at character creation. At minimum, you'll have an at-will from class 1 and an at-will from class 2 at level 1.
I very much agree with this system, This is what I want to see to be honest. The only flaw I see in it is the Druid and its third at will by class (4th if your human) and how that works with the beast form powers, but I suppose its not that big of an issue if you settle for one beast form at will and one normal form at will.
The specific weakness of the current multi-class system is in the Heroic tier, because you can't gain any powers of the second class until 4th level, and don't gain any feel of a true hybrid until Paragon.
To be fair, some of the multiclass feats give you at-will powers once per encounter. I concede this is a bit limited, but it can be done at first level, and you are getting some powers of the second class.
They wanted 4e to be "all sweet-spot" They didn't want you to have to wait to play the character you wanted to play.
Unfortunately for anyone but fighters or rangers that wants to meaningfully two-weapon fight, you have to wait till 11th level and sink a whoooole buncha feats into the idea. You have to wait for an entire tier of play before the culmination of playing what you want to play.
Hopefully Dual Classing will fix that.
I think this might be the designers recognizing that in terms of multiclassing, they failed in one of their design philosophies.
They wanted 4e to be "all sweet-spot" They didn't want you to have to wait to play the character you wanted to play.
Unfortunately for anyone but fighters or rangers that wants to meaningfully two-weapon fight, you have to wait till 11th level and sink a whoooole buncha feats into the idea. You have to wait for an entire tier of play before the culmination of playing what you want to play.
Hopefully Dual Classing will fix that.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you for putting it so much more succinctly.
In addition to the one up there on "no delayed gratification", there's also the fact that Paragon Multiclassing is the only rules item in the game that has 4 feats as a prerequisite. In terms of 4th Edition, that is insanely taxing. Nothing else in the game requires that much effort to qualify for.
Indeed. The Current multiclassing system seems to ignore much of 4e's design philosophies.
In addition to the one up there on "no delayed gratification", there's also the fact that Paragon Multiclassing is the only rules item in the game that has 4 feats as a prerequisite. In terms of 4th Edition, that is insanely taxing. Nothing else in the game requires that much effort to qualify for.
I have to respectfully disagree. I think that multiclassing, as is now, fits into the design philosophy just fine. If I wanted to be a fighter who only marginally trains as a Wizard without going full bore, I can. Similarly, I can be a chain master or a spellscarred and grow in my ability over time.
Dual classing sounds to me like its more for the kid who grew up in the arcane school of war. He's both a fighter and a wizard; not as good as a single class in either, but just as good in his own way as both. If what I predict in my post above turns out to be true, I could fully understand the differences of a Fighter/wizard in our party and the fighter of the group deciding he likes the idea, so he starts learning to do it too.
Although mechanics are the backbone of the system, the roleplay factor will keep multiclassing a viable option for my characters even if dual classing ends up just being a fancy replacement.
I have to respectfully disagree. I think that multiclassing, as is now, fits into the design philosophy just fine. If I wanted to be a fighter who only marginally trains as a Wizard without going full bore, I can. Similarly, I can be a chain master or a spellscarred and grow in my ability over time.
Sure, it lets you do those things, but it fails utterly in letting me play a Paladin that (meaingfully*) two-weapon fights because that's just his preferred fighting style, rather than intensively training in the arts of the Ranger over the course of an adventuring career.
(*The two-weapon fighting feat does not count as meaningful. A static bonus to damage for holding two weapons does not have the same visceral feel as making at least one attack with each weapon on your turn.)
Sure, it lets you do those things, but it fails utterly in letting me play a Paladin that (meaingfully*) two-weapon fights because that's just his preferred fighting style, rather than intensively training in the arts of the Ranger over the course of an adventuring career.
Really? This sounds like a perfectly viable concept to me with the current multiclassing rules. Though, I personally would start with the Ranger class and then multiclass into taking powers from the Paladin. I think it would model what you're going for much better, a character whose primary fighting style is dual wielding with the channeling of divine power added in as opposed to a characters who's fighting style is primarily the channeling of divine power with dual wielding added in.
Actually doesn't sound like a bad combo at all...
personally, i think, the later is a better choice.
honestly 2 weapon paladin could just be a reflavored ranger/tempest mc'd paladin(or not even mc'd). (or an avenger mc'd ranger)
Not sure what to say,
tempted to shout Apiril Fools, but I with all this hype, I guess its true, or there is a lot of suckers out there
To become a Dragon or Avangion in Darksun you had to be a human and dual class.
Sorcerer Kings were:
20 Defiler/20 Psion/**Dragon
Avangions were:
20 Preserver/20 Psion/**Avangion
If dual classing isn't an April Fools day joke it actually ads weight to speculation that that 2010 setting will in fact be Darksun.
No it wouldn't. How are you drawing that conclusion?
There's no reason the setting and that aspect of it you're referring to could not be slightly altered to fit the mechanics of this edition.Welp, Dual Classing might still be some kind of April Fool's thing.
It was my first thought too, but it looks like all the April's fool stuff was today, with the lame Drizzt Magic Card and the Witchalock preview (oh god, I hope they put the joke in Dragon, because then technically I could roll up a Witchalock in the RPGA)
Seriously, what's with this schlock?
I went on the main site expecting to see April Fools jokes this morning. I didn't see the Gleemax Reboot coming though!
It would really tick me off if something posted for April 6th was part of their April Fool's jokes. Especially if that something fixes something I seriously hate about 4e (the craptastic multiclassing.)
I went on the main site expecting to see April Fools jokes this morning. I didn't see the Gleemax Reboot coming though!
It's the new theme of the forum... See the green brain as the online icon?
They made a gleemax-mock-up theme for our April's fool... Hopefully tomorrow we'll have the normal theme again...(Pretty lame April's fool this year, wasn't it? I mean, look at the Drizzt MtG card... And below the banner with Drizzt even saying "happy april's fool"...)
It's the new theme of the forum... See the green brain as the online icon?
(Pretty lame April's fool this year, wasn't it? I mean, look at the Drizzt MtG card... And below the banner with Drizzt even saying "happy april's fool"...)
Yeah, I wasn't "fooled" by the forum theme, I just didn't see it coming. As soon as I saw the Gleemax theme I knew it was part of the joke.
As for the rest of their April Fools, there's more on the main site besides just the Drizz't card.
Yeah, I wasn't "fooled" by the forum theme, I just didn't see it coming. As soon as I saw the Gleemax theme I knew it was part of the joke.
As for the rest of their April Fools, there's more on the main site besides just the Drizz't card.
Yeah like the Witchalock and everything, but having seen the Drizzt card first it kind of made it all lamer... Gosh I see myself becoming some kind of grognard day by day, but can't help it.
Really? This sounds like a perfectly viable concept to me with the current multiclassing rules. Though, I personally would start with the Ranger class and then multiclass into taking powers from the Paladin. I think it would model what you're going for much better, a character whose primary fighting style is dual wielding with the channeling of divine power added in as opposed to a characters who's fighting style is primarily the channeling of divine power with dual wielding added in.
Actually doesn't sound like a bad combo at all...
Perhaps it's not a bad combo, but it's not the combo I want to play. I want to be a PALADIN, with PALADIN class features, that fights with two weapons well. I don't want to be a two-weapon dynamo with a plethora of fancy two weapon tricks and a little dash of divine that can't even perform as a sub-leader.
Perhaps it's not a bad combo, but it's not the combo I want to play. I want to be a PALADIN, with PALADIN class features, that fights with two weapons well. I don't want to be a two-weapon dynamo with a plethora of fancy two weapon tricks and a little dash of divine that can't even perform as a sub-leader.
i guess it comes from whether you are trying to fit the concept within the rules, or the rules within the concept.
:lightbulb
1. It is not an April Fool's joke. (I am not absolutely certain whether the people who suggested this idea were being serious, but it seems unlikely in the extreme that a minor, unelaborated future calendar entry is a joke.)
2. A 2e dualclass-like system in which you level up in one class for a while, then give up your existing powers and level up in another class from level 1 absolutely will not happen. It goes against just about every tenet of 4e character design philosophy.
3. It will also not be a 2e multiclass-like system in which you have all abilities from both classes but level more slowly. There is a real attempt to smooth out the power curve in 4e, and there is no real way to do so with such a system.
4. I cannot rule out the possibility of them providing an alternative to Paragon Multiclassing, since as far as I can tell, very few people are actually using Paragon Multiclassing. However, I believe that they will try to solve this problem with more feats that require Paragon Multiclassing rather than replacing it.
5. One other realistic possibility is that it is some kind of Epic tier continuation of Paragon multiclassing. However, given that a small minority of DnD playing time is spent at Epic tier, I believe that they will want it to be usable earlier than that.
As to what it will be, I predict a system in which you somehow gain some, but not all, features of both classes. Given the differing numbers and strengths of abilities that different classes possess, it will not involve anything like "choose any one class feature from each of your two classes", as that would place too many constraints on how powerful a single class feature can be and still remain balanced with dualclassing. The system will have to be more structured than that.
Quaestor the Wanderer
It appears they've clarified, guys. It's "PH3 Playtest: Hybrid Classes", not "PH3 Playtest: Dual-classing." Maybe it was an April Fool's thing, maybe just an eff up in editing.
I am wondering if perhaps thanks to them seeing on various forums how much baggage the name has they changed it. We basically caused a change to a playtest before getting the playtest :P
It appears they've clarified, guys. It's "PH3 Playtest: Hybrid Classes", not "PH3 Playtest: Dual-classing." Maybe it was an April Fool's thing, maybe just an eff up in editing.
That sounds to be exactly the same, to me at least. It sounds like they just renamed it for some reason(maybe to clear up some confusion about what the nature of the article was).
I'd say that 'confusion' is the fact that everyone thought it'd be combining two existing classes into one. What Hybrid Classes says to me is that they figured out what they had been trying to do with the Druid.
And to Sigil Beguiler: Lawl.
I'd say that 'confusion' is the fact that everyone thought it'd be combining two existing classes into one. What Hybrid Classes says to me is that they figured out what they had been trying to do with the Druid.
And to Sigil Beguiler: Lawl.
But that doesn't really make much sense as a playtest article. Having a class with a hybrid role, the druid thing you are talking about, would be a playtest of that class. This isn't a playtest of a specific class, but is a playtest of hybrid classes. That doesn't really make much sense as a generic playtest.
It does make sense if it is a playtest for a new mechanic of creating a hybrid class from two already existing classes though. At least that how it makes sense to me. *shrugs*
...This isn't a playtest of a specific class, but is a playtest of hybrid classes... a new mechanic of creating a hybrid class from two already existing classes though.
Did I at any point say it was a play-test of a specific hybrid class? Don't put words in my mouth, plz k thx.
I think 'Hybrid' sounds very different than 'Dual', though. As I see it, one implies a blending of features of one or more whatevers (in this case, classes), where as Dual just sounds like slapping 'em together and calling it a day.
Either way, we're going to find out Monday.
Did I at any point say it was a playtest of a specific class. Don't put words in my mouth, plz k thx.
Either way, we're going to find out monday.
How are you going to playtest hybrid role classes without a hybrid role class? Isn't that sort of like tasting a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that doesn't have any peanut butter.....or bread?
Magic? XD
Either that, or something along the lines of the PHB2, where every class has a secondary role, rather than the singular roles each PHB1 class had.
What Hybrid Classes says to me is that they figured out what they had been trying to do with the Druid.
I'm not so certain, if I understand what you're saying. To me a Hybrid class is 1 class that fills two rolls (controller and striker).
PHB3 Playtest: Hybrid Classes says to me that this isn't simply an article on how to make a class that straddles two roles. That'd be a preview and also in the DMG3. This says to me its an option for a PC to possibly "construct" a class by taking features and powers from pre-existing classes, using the rules provided in the PHB3. I.e. Multiclassing.
If all else fails, you can always get your multiple character fix by building a hybrid character. Using the playtest article for Player's Handbook 3 that comes out next Monday, you can wrap the best of two classes in the body of one adventurer.
from today's editoral
That actually sounds great! It's something I was considering house ruling already. Glad to see Wizards is doing the work for me! Mix and match features of different classes in order to flesh out a true character concept. If you're then still allowed to add multiclasses via feats, that would make the system pretty near perfect to me.
I find it more likely Hybrid Classes will be self-contained enough that they don't have to do a lot do work whenever they add new classes. it just makes more sense to me to hand us the system and let us do the work.
There will, of course, be some caveats, no doubt. For example, the free inclusion of implement class features on top of everything else, or the mentioning that Warlocks don't automatically gain the Eldritch Blast power if they choose Eldritch Pact as the feature gained, specific class features they do NOT want to be shared, and so on.
Quaestor the Wanderer