Arcane Power Source vs. Everything to Come - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 marius4 May 16, 2009 21:22:17	The issue seems to be that the Arcane power source can manipulate what all the other power sources manipulate, while the reverse is not so true. Some people--to varying degrees--feel that this is stealing the spotlight from other power sources and essentially invalidating other classes and characters...particularly those to be included in future releases. However, one might argue that the Arcane power source is in fact defined by learning to manipulate any and all aspects of reality and the universe. Thus, dipping into effects of various power sources (i.e., parts of reality) is arguably to be expected, with the caveat that the Arcane classes don't outshine the specialists in those realms. (For example, a wizard might learn a few encounter and daily spells that manipulate shadows and darkness, but, multiclassing aside, would never have the class features or at-wills to which a base Shadow power source class would have access.) So, some central questions about Arcane that will impact other, future power sources are: Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing? Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently? How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard?
#2 salla May 16, 2009 21:38:23	Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing? Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently? How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard? 1. I don't think so, myself. 2. Power sources are fluff; it's not up to the game system to define them. 3. Powers that draw on the ambient energy ('mana', if you will) of a plane. Wizards, sorcerers, bards draw on the home plane, warlocks from the Feywild, Shadowfell, Hells, or Far Realm. 4. No need. It's all fluff and, to me, mutable and in the end, irrelevant. You fluff how your powers work however you want to.
#3 alitain May 16, 2009 22:04:05	I look at Arcane like this; Arcane power is the ability to manipulate reality, to shift and stretch and reconfigure it. What I mean is that Arcane warps reality by calling fireballs out of nowhere, casting illusions, making stink clouds appear, doing bunch of stuff that has no real solid ground in reality. Somehow stumbled on this idea when thinking about the Elemental power source. Before I didn't think it'd be possible with how Arcane is, but I convinced myself otherwise. While I can't think of anything specific I think Elemental power source would be solely based on the core elements and not have a bunch of illusions and summoning creatures and such. Don't know, but that's just my take.
#4 Grazel May 16, 2009 23:08:10	I think the issue lies more in how people have tried to define power sources. Most people seem to look at the powers and their keywords as the power source. They are mixing effect with source. Others are confused with Arcane because unlike the other power sources the arcane classes draw on their power source in widely different ways. So for what I see it as: Arcane is the ability to draw upon the ambient magic of the planes to create, alter, or affect it in some way. Wizards learn to do this by study, incantations, rituals, and what we usually think of as 'spells'. Warlocks learn to do this by making pacts with entities (or tapping into fragments of dead entities) who teach them ways to draw on magical energy without worship. This is what seperates them from Divine because it's an arrangement rather than worship (see the FR novel The Plague of Spells for a good warlock concept). Swordmages mix a fighter's training with a Wizards study to make a warrior who relies on magic as much as weaponry and armor. Bard learns to utilize sound to shape the magical energies into something useful. This may be an innate talent or taught through a guild or college. Artificer relies on items to be the physical catalyst for magical energy that they siphon from around them and concentrate into the object. This creates potions, and magical items (temporary or permanent) for their or others use. Sorcerers can channel magic in more direct way than the others. The reason varies from sorcerer to sorcerer. It could be bloodline from a magical beast, an ancestor who got infused with raw magic and passed that energy on through the bloodline, the sorcerer themselves got hit with some raw magic and survived and now can channel it, or maybe they are just one of the rare few in every race who has a tie to the magical energies and can manipulate it without some method of focus like the other arcane classes. When people talk of Arcane stepping on the toes of Elemental and Shadow especially it seems to be because arcane classes have a lot of non-weapon attacks that have keywords of shadow, necrotic, fire, cold, thunder, etc. What seems to get overlooked is so do primal, divine, and even martial classes. The damage types are just the byproduct/result of the power, not the source of the power.
#5 Belorin May 17, 2009 1:42:24	The Arcane power source is accessed by study (wizards, artificers), pact (warlock), blood (sorcerer) or resonance (bard). In doing so arcanists have discovered portals or paths to other power sources and have learned to harness a portion of those sources, kind of like wading in a creek. Classes that utilize the Elemental, Psionic or Shadow build dams and divert portions of a river to irrigate fields. Bel
#6 tehsquirrely May 17, 2009 5:17:14	It's the misc power source it seems to me. Pretty much anything that doesn't belong anywhere else goes right into arcane, because it's easy to explain; "It's magic." I think of it as every power source is a magic of something, and arcane is the magic of magic. I do think it steps on the toes of other power sources a little, but that seems to be the only defining and unifying quality of arcane classes; Divine classes have channel divinity and (often) +1 to all NADS, Martial have reliable dailies and use weapons and stances more than other sources, Primal has higher than average hp and changes forms. Arcane however doesn't have a mechanic (or even anything close really) to tie all the classes together, they're all wildly different with their only commonality being they wield magic in some way.
#7 ranadiel May 17, 2009 6:59:51	Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing? Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently? How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard? To some degree I don't think it is too ill-defined, but they haven't done a good job of explicitly explaining it The magic of making the universe violate the laws of the three primary planes(the world, astral sea and elemental chaos) through extensive formulas(although the character may not know these formula explicitly) The ability to create natural phenomena
#8 undrave May 17, 2009 15:53:06	the Wizard's not really the problem. I find the Wizard, Swordmage, Artificer and Bard to be roughly in the same thematic ballpark with an emphasis on studying and knowledge. With a little more definition and less emphasis on trying to reproduce the Wizard of yore in one single class, the stepping on toes should be limited to damage types, which is really not much at all. The real problems are Warlock and Sorcerer who break the mold. Especially Chaos Sorcerer who could be Elemental (and Dragon sorcerer could be debated to also be similar) and Storm Sorcerer being closer to Primal Classes. Warlocks make pact with the Far Realm, the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea, the Feywild, dark creatures of the Underdark and Vestiges (amongst which are many dead Primordials). Warlocks are all over the place!
#9 tyrandor May 17, 2009 16:55:31	Yeah, if you think about it, an Infernal Warlock could technically be Divine... since Devil are follower of a God >_>. I do think they put themselves in a corner here...
#10 jailbreaker May 17, 2009 17:47:54	Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing? Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently? How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard? 1. I don't think so but this really depends on your point of view. 2. Yes. Only because WotC expects everyone to understand "Arcane" already. And we technically don't. 3 The smallest particle of matter is about the same size as a particle of light. It is called an arcaneon. These arcaneons usually don't do a thing. They just sit there being bored. Some entities, however, are able to control arcaneons to their advantage. Wizards delve through tomes and... more tomes, really... to learn of these arcaneons. Warlocks make pacts with entities to gain control of them. Swordmages, like Wizards, go through intense study. Bards use either natural talent or study to use music to affect arcaneons. Sorcerers are usually born with control of arcaneons. Arcaneons used to be considered energy, like light, but it was realized that they must have mass to have force in Magic Missle. Energy does not have mass.
#11 ranadiel May 17, 2009 18:40:14	the Wizard's not really the problem. I find the Wizard, Swordmage, Artificer and Bard to be roughly in the same thematic ballpark with an emphasis on studying and knowledge. With a little more definition and less emphasis on trying to reproduce the Wizard of yore in one single class, the stepping on toes should be limited to damage types, which is really not much at all. The real problems are Warlock and Sorcerer who break the mold. Especially Chaos Sorcerer who could be Elemental (and Dragon sorcerer could be debated to also be similar) and Storm Sorcerer being closer to Primal Classes. Warlocks make pact with the Far Realm, the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea, the Feywild, dark creatures of the Underdark and Vestiges (amongst which are many dead Primordials). Warlocks are all over the place! If you want to think of the arcane power source as simply being the power source of knowledge, then warlock and sorcerer do fit for the most part. If the wizard is the guy who studied every spare moment during high school to get As then the Warlock is the guy who hired a tutor and the Sorcerer is the guy who just knows all the answers for everything without ever studying. I suppose the crossover into other power sources is still there though unfortunatly.
#12 phurgawtin May 17, 2009 19:11:50	Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing? Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently? How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard? 1. Nah, its not a problem. So what if you have ice wizards, ice sorcerors, and warden's have a winter form. The power sources are done just for grouping. 2. Arcanum is latin for "Sacred Secret." Translate that how you will. 3. I think arcane characters pull their power from either themselves or another non-deity entity. Sorcerers being entirely independent, Wizards using a practiced trade of stable magic but the energy still comes from themselves, Swordmages being students of magic who focus it through their weapon but the power still comes from them, and Warlocks tapping into the powers of other entities. Simple enough. 4. I don't care. :D
#13 Myztek May 17, 2009 19:30:10	The primary area where people see 'overlap' is with shadow and elemental. However, people have no friggin clue what these power sources are like, yet. People assume that shadow is 'dark magic'. However, I don't think it will be merely a form of magic pulled from the shadowfell. It will be more. WotC will make it distinct from magic, and make the stuff of shadow power into something that stands aside from what the arcane world is... As for elemental powers, I think people are still thinking that elemental forces throw around fireballs, ice storms, lightning bolts, acid clouds, green clovers, blue diamonds, etc... 4E elementalism is not 3E elementalism. The elementals are tied to titans and demonic influence. If I were to look for an equivalent area of influence in 3E for what elementals are in 4E, I'd be looking closer to the 3E abyss than the 3E elemental planes. Personally, the one I think they'll regret releasing in the PHB because it would have been better served in the elemental PHB is the warlock... I'd have held the warlock and tiefling for that book... All in all - wait for the books with overlap before worrying if there is overlap. We have enough existing problems to address to bother wasting time looking at potential theretical problems that might exist.
#14 skyodin May 17, 2009 20:00:48	the Wizard's not really the problem. I find the Wizard, Swordmage, Artificer and Bard to be roughly in the same thematic ballpark with an emphasis on studying and knowledge. With a little more definition and less emphasis on trying to reproduce the Wizard of yore in one single class, the stepping on toes should be limited to damage types, which is really not much at all. The real problems are Warlock and Sorcerer who break the mold. Especially Chaos Sorcerer who could be Elemental (and Dragon sorcerer could be debated to also be similar) and Storm Sorcerer being closer to Primal Classes. Warlocks make pact with the Far Realm, the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea, the Feywild, dark creatures of the Underdark and Vestiges (amongst which are many dead Primordials). Warlocks are all over the place! I actually think this sentiment represents what the principle problem with the Arcane Power Source is. The Sorcerer and Warlock do clearly stand out as being different from the other Arcane classes. The reason they stand out is that they have an explanation for where their powers come from. They have flavorful and interesting explanations for what fuels their ability to manipulate reality. Other Arcane classes don't. (Thinking about it, I would add the Artificer to the Sorcerer and Warlock as being flavorful). In a certain sense, the Arcane power source is defined by a lack of clear definition. While it is clear that a Wizard acquires his powers through study and secret knowledge, it isn't clear how that knowledge translates into power. A step in the process is clearly missing. As a result, the major Arcane classes are noticeably generic.
#15 Janx_14 May 17, 2009 20:10:49	The primary area where people see 'overlap' is with shadow and elemental. However, people have no friggin clue what these power sources are like, yet. People assume that shadow is 'dark magic'. However, I don't think it will be merely a form of magic pulled from the shadowfell. It will be more. WotC will make it distinct from magic, and make the stuff of shadow power into something that stands aside from what the arcane world is... As for elemental powers, I think people are still thinking that elemental forces throw around fireballs, ice storms, lightning bolts, acid clouds, green clovers, blue diamonds, etc... 4E elementalism is not 3E elementalism. The elementals are tied to titans and demonic influence. If I were to look for an equivalent area of influence in 3E for what elementals are in 4E, I'd be looking closer to the 3E abyss than the 3E elemental planes. Personally, the one I think they'll regret releasing in the PHB because it would have been better served in the elemental PHB is the warlock... I'd have held the warlock and tiefling for that book... All in all - wait for the books with overlap before worrying if there is overlap. We have enough existing problems to address to bother wasting time looking at potential theretical problems that might exist. Tieflings, Devils, and Warlocks have NOTHING to do with the Abyss besides the blood war. Infernal is devil related, not Demon.
#16 undrave May 17, 2009 21:12:51	I actually think this sentiment represents what the principle problem with the Arcane Power Source is. The Sorcerer and Warlock do clearly stand out as being different from the other Arcane classes. The reason they stand out is that they have an explanation for where their powers come from. They have flavorful and interesting explanations for what fuels their ability to manipulate reality. Other Arcane classes don't. (Thinking about it, I would add the Artificer to the Sorcerer and Warlock as being flavorful). In a certain sense, the Arcane power source is defined by a lack of clear definition. While it is clear that a Wizard acquires his powers through study and secret knowledge, it isn't clear how that knowledge translates into power. A step in the process is clearly missing. As a result, the major Arcane classes are noticeably generic. That's pretty true too. Also Warlock and Sorcerer have an origin to their power but its not similar in anyway either, as if they were from two different power sources. Its almost like Arcane means 'steal from other Power Sources' or something. It feels like Wizards might not have the mechanical advantage over other classes anymore but they have the thematic advantage that grants them virtually whatever effects the designer want by simply using the blanket 'its magic!' reason as to how it works.
#17 Marandahir May 18, 2009 13:40:42	If you want to think of the arcane power source as simply being the power source of knowledge, then warlock and sorcerer do fit for the most part. If the wizard is the guy who studied every spare moment during high school to get As then the Warlock is the guy who hired a tutor and the Sorcerer is the guy who just knows all the answers for everything without ever studying. I suppose the crossover into other power sources is still there though unfortunatly. This is how I always viewed it. Bards cross natural talent with intensive study, in both the martial artes (Valor), philosophy (Prescience), and wit (Cunning). Artificers spend a lot of time studying how particular magic is imbued into items. Warlocks can be very studious - the Star Pact Warlock is as oft an Astronomer/Astrologer as s/he is bound to Cosmic Horrors. Celestial Scholars, a PP for Cosmic Sorcerers, deeply imply a studious element. Sorcerers may not be university goers, but they still experiment with their natural talent and follow a course of study of their own creation. Swordmages, like Valorous Bards, study both spell and blade, with takes considerable training. In all cases, Arcane seems to be around being a college student and the closest thing to what the D&D players tend to actually be, only magical. Since liberal art college students tend to be interdisciplinary, and all college student usually have to dabble in a bit of something else, the bleedover makes sense (1). I think I also answered (2) already, as well as (3), but I'll make it a bit clearer: Magic is something fundamental to the cosmos. Arcane characters aren't the only ones who draw upon it - Psionics is now called Psionic Magic, as evident in the Monk Playtest. Arcane characters, instead, grasp it in it's most fundamental and undiluted ways, rather than accessing a particular ebb and flow of it. Or rather, Warlocks and some Sorcerers do access a particular take on it, but only so as their access point, not as their requisite (a Feylock can take Hellock and Bindlock powers, even if they would be better for a character with higher Con). Magic is knowledge, and replaces technology. it's Maginology, or Magitech, or Spellpunk, if you get so far as Eberron does, and the core 4e leans towards that, using magic instead of technology to power things, though it's still in a Middle Ages period. As long as the Wizard sticks to individual disciplines - Destruction, Control, Deception, or Conjuration, for example (what's already released), it should be fine, because it's dealing with fundamental aspects of powers and rituals, rather than actual power sources (4).
#18 CaptnMorgrim May 18, 2009 14:30:16	It feels like Wizards might not have the mechanical advantage over other classes anymore but they have the thematic advantage that grants them virtually whatever effects the designer want by simply using the blanket 'its magic!' reason as to how it works. Actually, guessing from the fact that each different school of arcane magic (i.e. character class) requires different training due their different approach to Arcane Powers. It's not like dropping everything that doesn't fit a Power Source into arcane, "'cos it's magic, d'uh!" All these classes have a certain set of powers that incline them towards arcane magic rather than a lazy design decision. This becomes more apparent if you see the arcane classes as different magical archetypes: - The Wizard is, all in all, a scholar with greater understanding in the principles of a magical universe. It 's what all magic is about: Power from understanding the hidden truths. - The Warlock, on the other hand, is the one who made a pact with an entity of greater power. He/she took a shortcut on the route to the power the wizard seeks. - The Sorcerer as a spellcaster is born not made, i.e., things beyond his/her direct control infused him/her with this power and he/she mastered it. - The Artificer harnesses the powers of substances and their innate magic. Essentially, this is the Alchemist archetype. However, in some cases, said archetypes is mixed with concepts stemming from previous versions of D&D: - The Bard has a backstory of being a magic user in D&D, but the magical effect of music is also a very common sight in myths (Orpheus, the pied piper, and what not). If it weren't for that, I 'd have placed the Bard as a ranged Martial Leader in contrast to the Warlord who is the melee Martial Leader. - The Swordmage: A mystical or magical fighter could stand in for an Eldritch Knight, an enlightened fighter like a wise Samurai or even a Yedi. In D&D terms, 'tis a perfect fit for the extremely popular "Gish" concept.
#19 Axiomatic_Badger May 20, 2009 2:43:26	1. No, it isn't an issue, and it isn't snowballing. 2. Whilst not necessarily too broad, it isn't actually defined anywhere iirc. This is the real issue. 3. Show Behind the world there is a sea of energy. All creatures are connected to it, and draw upon it unknowingly thier entire lives. However, some become aware of it,and with this awareness comes power. They can draw magic into themselves, and release it as a spell. However, the amount of magic a being can hold at one time is normally small, and so their spells normally have little noticable effect, resulting in simple charms and hedge magic. Arcane magic is when creatures learn to use this innate ability to create useful effects. -Wizards weave spells of sublime complexity, combining many tiny effects so that the end effect is greater than the sum of it's parts. -The swordmage uses his spells to amplify the effects of his martial abilities, and vice versa. -Bards use simple charms and trickery to fool others into using thier own magical ability against themselves. -Warlocks are much like wizards, but the knowledge of how to create thier spells is granted directly by thier patron. -Artificers create items with simple spells attached which they empower afterwards. -Sorcerers can store an abnormally large amount of energy allowing them to create significant effects with very simple spells.
#20 daidojitaidoru May 20, 2009 10:08:33	The primary area where people see 'overlap' is with shadow and elemental. However, people have no friggin clue what these power sources are like, yet. Pretty much this. There's a lot of fear over what might be, but all the "overlap" comes from power sources we literally know nothing about. If the Shadow power source comes from manifesting and manipulating something like Taint as a random example it will be completely different from Arcane. But we don't know what it is yet, so any judgments one way or the other are premature.
#21 thestupacabra May 20, 2009 10:30:33	I'm starting to believe that Arcane should be viewed as the "jack of all trades" power source, at least from a thematic stand-point. It seems to dabble in the territory of many different power sources, but never quite reaches the depths specialization that an individual power source is capable of. Which I don't see as a bad thing. Much of the assumption from the canon of pretty much every edition (fantasy in general really) is that magic permeates everything. It weaves through the lands, the creatures, even the planes themselves. It touches everything. Some one that was adept at manipulating magical energy (i.e. and Arcane class) would have abilities that "borrowed" from other sources, naturally. It seems like they made Arcane what it pretty much always has been... A very flexible and diverse source of power.
#22 Grazel May 20, 2009 13:40:29	Also I see Elemental as able to create and alter things on a basic level, making 'crude' things and shadow being able to create temporary forms of thins that aren't quite real. Arcane on the other hand can create complex and complete objects that are permanent (of course outside of combat). Elemental and Shadow also will lack force and psychic damage type powers. Arcane's thing that seperates it from the other power sources is it works on the more 'completed' side of all the cosmic forces rather than dealing with the various components that make up the whole. This means that they can 'bleed' over into other power sources in their power manifestations but they'll never have the focused power that classes from those power sources have. On the other hand arcane can manifest things no other power source can because they can blend the others together. Think of arcane energy (magic, Aert, Weave, etc) as the byproduct of the mix of the other basic energies of creation: Shadow, Divine, Elemental, Primal that only exists because the others all mingled and somewhat stayed mingled because of Gods and Spirits keeping the Primordials from reverting everything back into the Elemental Chaos.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

marius4

May 16, 2009 21:22:17

The issue seems to be that the Arcane power source can manipulate what all the other power sources manipulate, while the reverse is not so true. Some people--to varying degrees--feel that this is stealing the spotlight from other power sources and essentially invalidating other classes and characters...particularly those to be included in future releases.

However, one might argue that the Arcane power source is in fact defined by learning to manipulate any and all aspects of reality and the universe. Thus, dipping into effects of various power sources (i.e., parts of reality) is arguably to be expected, with the caveat that the Arcane classes don't outshine the specialists in those realms. (For example, a wizard might learn a few encounter and daily spells that manipulate shadows and darkness, but, multiclassing aside, would never have the class features or at-wills to which a base Shadow power source class would have access.)

So, some central questions about Arcane that will impact other, future power sources are:

Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing?
Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently?
How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and
Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard?

salla

May 16, 2009 21:38:23

Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing?
Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently?
How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and
Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard?

1. I don't think so, myself.
2. Power sources are fluff; it's not up to the game system to define them.
3. Powers that draw on the ambient energy ('mana', if you will) of a plane. Wizards, sorcerers, bards draw on the home plane, warlocks from the Feywild, Shadowfell, Hells, or Far Realm.
4. No need. It's all fluff and, to me, mutable and in the end, irrelevant. You fluff how your powers work however you want to.

alitain

May 16, 2009 22:04:05

I look at Arcane like this; Arcane power is the ability to manipulate reality, to shift and stretch and reconfigure it. What I mean is that Arcane warps reality by calling fireballs out of nowhere, casting illusions, making stink clouds appear, doing bunch of stuff that has no real solid ground in reality.

Somehow stumbled on this idea when thinking about the Elemental power source. Before I didn't think it'd be possible with how Arcane is, but I convinced myself otherwise. While I can't think of anything specific I think Elemental power source would be solely based on the core elements and not have a bunch of illusions and summoning creatures and such. Don't know, but that's just my take.

Grazel

May 16, 2009 23:08:10

I think the issue lies more in how people have tried to define power sources. Most people seem to look at the powers and their keywords as the power source. They are mixing effect with source. Others are confused with Arcane because unlike the other power sources the arcane classes draw on their power source in widely different ways.

So for what I see it as:

Arcane is the ability to draw upon the ambient magic of the planes to create, alter, or affect it in some way.

Wizards learn to do this by study, incantations, rituals, and what we usually think of as 'spells'.

Warlocks learn to do this by making pacts with entities (or tapping into fragments of dead entities) who teach them ways to draw on magical energy without worship. This is what seperates them from Divine because it's an arrangement rather than worship (see the FR novel The Plague of Spells for a good warlock concept).

Swordmages mix a fighter's training with a Wizards study to make a warrior who relies on magic as much as weaponry and armor.

Bard learns to utilize sound to shape the magical energies into something useful. This may be an innate talent or taught through a guild or college.

Artificer relies on items to be the physical catalyst for magical energy that they siphon from around them and concentrate into the object. This creates potions, and magical items (temporary or permanent) for their or others use.

Sorcerers can channel magic in more direct way than the others. The reason varies from sorcerer to sorcerer. It could be bloodline from a magical beast, an ancestor who got infused with raw magic and passed that energy on through the bloodline, the sorcerer themselves got hit with some raw magic and survived and now can channel it, or maybe they are just one of the rare few in every race who has a tie to the magical energies and can manipulate it without some method of focus like the other arcane classes.

When people talk of Arcane stepping on the toes of Elemental and Shadow especially it seems to be because arcane classes have a lot of non-weapon attacks that have keywords of shadow, necrotic, fire, cold, thunder, etc. What seems to get overlooked is so do primal, divine, and even martial classes. The damage types are just the byproduct/result of the power, not the source of the power.

Belorin

May 17, 2009 1:42:24

The Arcane power source is accessed by study (wizards, artificers), pact (warlock), blood (sorcerer) or resonance (bard). In doing so arcanists have discovered portals or paths to other power sources and have learned to harness a portion of those sources, kind of like wading in a creek. Classes that utilize the Elemental, Psionic or Shadow build dams and divert portions of a river to irrigate fields.

Bel

tehsquirrely

May 17, 2009 5:17:14

It's the misc power source it seems to me. Pretty much anything that doesn't belong anywhere else goes right into arcane, because it's easy to explain; "It's magic."

I think of it as every power source is a magic of something, and arcane is the magic of magic. I do think it steps on the toes of other power sources a little, but that seems to be the only defining and unifying quality of arcane classes; Divine classes have channel divinity and (often) +1 to all NADS, Martial have reliable dailies and use weapons and stances more than other sources, Primal has higher than average hp and changes forms. Arcane however doesn't have a mechanic (or even anything close really) to tie all the classes together, they're all wildly different with their only commonality being they wield magic in some way.

ranadiel

May 17, 2009 6:59:51

Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing?
Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently?
How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and
Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard?

To some degree
I don't think it is too ill-defined, but they haven't done a good job of explicitly explaining it
The magic of making the universe violate the laws of the three primary planes(the world, astral sea and elemental chaos) through extensive formulas(although the character may not know these formula explicitly)
The ability to create natural phenomena

undrave

May 17, 2009 15:53:06

the Wizard's not really the problem. I find the Wizard, Swordmage, Artificer and Bard to be roughly in the same thematic ballpark with an emphasis on studying and knowledge. With a little more definition and less emphasis on trying to reproduce the Wizard of yore in one single class, the stepping on toes should be limited to damage types, which is really not much at all.

The real problems are Warlock and Sorcerer who break the mold. Especially Chaos Sorcerer who could be Elemental (and Dragon sorcerer could be debated to also be similar) and Storm Sorcerer being closer to Primal Classes. Warlocks make pact with the Far Realm, the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea, the Feywild, dark creatures of the Underdark and Vestiges (amongst which are many dead Primordials). Warlocks are all over the place!

tyrandor

May 17, 2009 16:55:31

Yeah, if you think about it, an Infernal Warlock could technically be Divine... since Devil are follower of a God >_>.

I do think they put themselves in a corner here...

#10

jailbreaker

May 17, 2009 17:47:54

Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing?
Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently?
How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and
Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard?

1. I don't think so but this really depends on your point of view.
2. Yes. Only because WotC expects everyone to understand "Arcane" already. And we technically don't.

The smallest particle of matter is about the same size as a particle of light. It is called an arcaneon.

These arcaneons usually don't do a thing. They just sit there being bored. Some entities, however, are able to control arcaneons to their advantage.

Wizards delve through tomes and... more tomes, really... to learn of these arcaneons. Warlocks make pacts with entities to gain control of them. Swordmages, like Wizards, go through intense study. Bards use either natural talent or study to use music to affect arcaneons. Sorcerers are usually born with control of arcaneons.

Arcaneons used to be considered energy, like light, but it was realized that they must have mass to have force in Magic Missle. Energy does not have mass.

#11

ranadiel

May 17, 2009 18:40:14

the Wizard's not really the problem. I find the Wizard, Swordmage, Artificer and Bard to be roughly in the same thematic ballpark with an emphasis on studying and knowledge. With a little more definition and less emphasis on trying to reproduce the Wizard of yore in one single class, the stepping on toes should be limited to damage types, which is really not much at all.

The real problems are Warlock and Sorcerer who break the mold. Especially Chaos Sorcerer who could be Elemental (and Dragon sorcerer could be debated to also be similar) and Storm Sorcerer being closer to Primal Classes. Warlocks make pact with the Far Realm, the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea, the Feywild, dark creatures of the Underdark and Vestiges (amongst which are many dead Primordials). Warlocks are all over the place!

If you want to think of the arcane power source as simply being the power source of knowledge, then warlock and sorcerer do fit for the most part. If the wizard is the guy who studied every spare moment during high school to get As then the Warlock is the guy who hired a tutor and the Sorcerer is the guy who just knows all the answers for everything without ever studying. I suppose the crossover into other power sources is still there though unfortunatly.

#12

phurgawtin

May 17, 2009 19:11:50

Is this actually an issue and is the bleedover snowballing?
Is Arcane truly ill-defined and "too" broad? How so? If not, how & where is it already defined sufficiently?
How do you personally describe or define "Arcane" as a power source? and
Where should the lines (if any) be drawn in terms of game mechanics for Arcane characters, especially the wizard?

1. Nah, its not a problem. So what if you have ice wizards, ice sorcerors, and warden's have a winter form. The power sources are done just for grouping.

2. Arcanum is latin for "Sacred Secret." Translate that how you will.

3. I think arcane characters pull their power from either themselves or another non-deity entity. Sorcerers being entirely independent, Wizards using a practiced trade of stable magic but the energy still comes from themselves, Swordmages being students of magic who focus it through their weapon but the power still comes from them, and Warlocks tapping into the powers of other entities. Simple enough.

4. I don't care. :D

#13

Myztek

May 17, 2009 19:30:10

The primary area where people see 'overlap' is with shadow and elemental. However, people have no friggin clue what these power sources are like, yet.

People assume that shadow is 'dark magic'. However, I don't think it will be merely a form of magic pulled from the shadowfell. It will be more. WotC will make it distinct from magic, and make the stuff of shadow power into something that stands aside from what the arcane world is...

As for elemental powers, I think people are still thinking that elemental forces throw around fireballs, ice storms, lightning bolts, acid clouds, green clovers, blue diamonds, etc... 4E elementalism is not 3E elementalism. The elementals are tied to titans and demonic influence. If I were to look for an equivalent area of influence in 3E for what elementals are in 4E, I'd be looking closer to the 3E abyss than the 3E elemental planes. Personally, the one I think they'll regret releasing in the PHB because it would have been better served in the elemental PHB is the warlock... I'd have held the warlock and tiefling for that book...

All in all - wait for the books with overlap before worrying if there is overlap. We have enough existing problems to address to bother wasting time looking at potential theretical problems that might exist.

#14

skyodin

May 17, 2009 20:00:48

the Wizard's not really the problem. I find the Wizard, Swordmage, Artificer and Bard to be roughly in the same thematic ballpark with an emphasis on studying and knowledge. With a little more definition and less emphasis on trying to reproduce the Wizard of yore in one single class, the stepping on toes should be limited to damage types, which is really not much at all.

The real problems are Warlock and Sorcerer who break the mold. Especially Chaos Sorcerer who could be Elemental (and Dragon sorcerer could be debated to also be similar) and Storm Sorcerer being closer to Primal Classes. Warlocks make pact with the Far Realm, the Nine Hells in the Astral Sea, the Feywild, dark creatures of the Underdark and Vestiges (amongst which are many dead Primordials). Warlocks are all over the place!

I actually think this sentiment represents what the principle problem with the Arcane Power Source is. The Sorcerer and Warlock do clearly stand out as being different from the other Arcane classes. The reason they stand out is that they have an explanation for where their powers come from. They have flavorful and interesting explanations for what fuels their ability to manipulate reality. Other Arcane classes don't. (Thinking about it, I would add the Artificer to the Sorcerer and Warlock as being flavorful).

In a certain sense, the Arcane power source is defined by a lack of clear definition. While it is clear that a Wizard acquires his powers through study and secret knowledge, it isn't clear how that knowledge translates into power. A step in the process is clearly missing. As a result, the major Arcane classes are noticeably generic.

#15

Janx_14

May 17, 2009 20:10:49

The primary area where people see 'overlap' is with shadow and elemental. However, people have no friggin clue what these power sources are like, yet.

People assume that shadow is 'dark magic'. However, I don't think it will be merely a form of magic pulled from the shadowfell. It will be more. WotC will make it distinct from magic, and make the stuff of shadow power into something that stands aside from what the arcane world is...

As for elemental powers, I think people are still thinking that elemental forces throw around fireballs, ice storms, lightning bolts, acid clouds, green clovers, blue diamonds, etc... 4E elementalism is not 3E elementalism. The elementals are tied to titans and demonic influence. If I were to look for an equivalent area of influence in 3E for what elementals are in 4E, I'd be looking closer to the 3E abyss than the 3E elemental planes. Personally, the one I think they'll regret releasing in the PHB because it would have been better served in the elemental PHB is the warlock... I'd have held the warlock and tiefling for that book...

All in all - wait for the books with overlap before worrying if there is overlap. We have enough existing problems to address to bother wasting time looking at potential theretical problems that might exist.

Tieflings, Devils, and Warlocks have NOTHING to do with the Abyss besides the blood war. Infernal is devil related, not Demon.

#16

undrave

May 17, 2009 21:12:51

I actually think this sentiment represents what the principle problem with the Arcane Power Source is. The Sorcerer and Warlock do clearly stand out as being different from the other Arcane classes. The reason they stand out is that they have an explanation for where their powers come from. They have flavorful and interesting explanations for what fuels their ability to manipulate reality. Other Arcane classes don't. (Thinking about it, I would add the Artificer to the Sorcerer and Warlock as being flavorful).

In a certain sense, the Arcane power source is defined by a lack of clear definition. While it is clear that a Wizard acquires his powers through study and secret knowledge, it isn't clear how that knowledge translates into power. A step in the process is clearly missing. As a result, the major Arcane classes are noticeably generic.

That's pretty true too. Also Warlock and Sorcerer have an origin to their power but its not similar in anyway either, as if they were from two different power sources.

Its almost like Arcane means 'steal from other Power Sources' or something.

It feels like Wizards might not have the mechanical advantage over other classes anymore but they have the thematic advantage that grants them virtually whatever effects the designer want by simply using the blanket 'its magic!' reason as to how it works.

#17

Marandahir

May 18, 2009 13:40:42

If you want to think of the arcane power source as simply being the power source of knowledge, then warlock and sorcerer do fit for the most part. If the wizard is the guy who studied every spare moment during high school to get As then the Warlock is the guy who hired a tutor and the Sorcerer is the guy who just knows all the answers for everything without ever studying. I suppose the crossover into other power sources is still there though unfortunatly.

This is how I always viewed it. Bards cross natural talent with intensive study, in both the martial artes (Valor), philosophy (Prescience), and wit (Cunning).

Artificers spend a lot of time studying how particular magic is imbued into items. Warlocks can be very studious - the Star Pact Warlock is as oft an Astronomer/Astrologer as s/he is bound to Cosmic Horrors. Celestial Scholars, a PP for Cosmic Sorcerers, deeply imply a studious element. Sorcerers may not be university goers, but they still experiment with their natural talent and follow a course of study of their own creation.

Swordmages, like Valorous Bards, study both spell and blade, with takes considerable training.

In all cases, Arcane seems to be around being a college student and the closest thing to what the D&D players tend to actually be, only magical.

Since liberal art college students tend to be interdisciplinary, and all college student usually have to dabble in a bit of something else, the bleedover makes sense (1).

I think I also answered (2) already, as well as (3), but I'll make it a bit clearer: Magic is something fundamental to the cosmos. Arcane characters aren't the only ones who draw upon it - Psionics is now called Psionic Magic, as evident in the Monk Playtest. Arcane characters, instead, grasp it in it's most fundamental and undiluted ways, rather than accessing a particular ebb and flow of it. Or rather, Warlocks and some Sorcerers do access a particular take on it, but only so as their access point, not as their requisite (a Feylock can take Hellock and Bindlock powers, even if they would be better for a character with higher Con). Magic is knowledge, and replaces technology. it's Maginology, or Magitech, or Spellpunk, if you get so far as Eberron does, and the core 4e leans towards that, using magic instead of technology to power things, though it's still in a Middle Ages period.

As long as the Wizard sticks to individual disciplines - Destruction, Control, Deception, or Conjuration, for example (what's already released), it should be fine, because it's dealing with fundamental aspects of powers and rituals, rather than actual power sources (4).

#18

CaptnMorgrim

May 18, 2009 14:30:16

It feels like Wizards might not have the mechanical advantage over other classes anymore but they have the thematic advantage that grants them virtually whatever effects the designer want by simply using the blanket 'its magic!' reason as to how it works.

Actually, guessing from the fact that each different school of arcane magic (i.e. character class) requires different training due their different approach to Arcane Powers. It's not like dropping everything that doesn't fit a Power Source into arcane, "'cos it's magic, d'uh!" All these classes have a certain set of powers that incline them towards arcane magic rather than a lazy design decision. This becomes more apparent if you see the arcane classes as different magical archetypes:
- The Wizard is, all in all, a scholar with greater understanding in the principles of a magical universe. It 's what all magic is about: Power from understanding the hidden truths.
- The Warlock, on the other hand, is the one who made a pact with an entity of greater power. He/she took a shortcut on the route to the power the wizard seeks.
- The Sorcerer as a spellcaster is born not made, i.e., things beyond his/her direct control infused him/her with this power and he/she mastered it.
- The Artificer harnesses the powers of substances and their innate magic. Essentially, this is the Alchemist archetype.

However, in some cases, said archetypes is mixed with concepts stemming from previous versions of D&D:
- The Bard has a backstory of being a magic user in D&D, but the magical effect of music is also a very common sight in myths (Orpheus, the pied piper, and what not). If it weren't for that, I 'd have placed the Bard as a ranged Martial Leader in contrast to the Warlord who is the melee Martial Leader.
- The Swordmage: A mystical or magical fighter could stand in for an Eldritch Knight, an enlightened fighter like a wise Samurai or even a Yedi. In D&D terms, 'tis a perfect fit for the extremely popular "Gish" concept.

#19

Axiomatic_Badger

May 20, 2009 2:43:26

1. No, it isn't an issue, and it isn't snowballing.

2. Whilst not necessarily too broad, it isn't actually defined anywhere iirc. This is the real issue.

3.

Show

Behind the world there is a sea of energy. All creatures are connected to it, and draw upon it unknowingly thier entire lives. However, some become aware of it,and with this awareness comes power. They can draw magic into themselves, and release it as a spell.
However, the amount of magic a being can hold at one time is normally small, and so their spells normally have little noticable effect, resulting in simple charms and hedge magic.

Arcane magic is when creatures learn to use this innate ability to create useful effects.

-Wizards weave spells of sublime complexity, combining many tiny effects so that the end effect is greater than the sum of it's parts.
-The swordmage uses his spells to amplify the effects of his martial abilities, and vice versa.
-Bards use simple charms and trickery to fool others into using thier own magical ability against themselves.
-Warlocks are much like wizards, but the knowledge of how to create thier spells is granted directly by thier patron.
-Artificers create items with simple spells attached which they empower afterwards.
-Sorcerers can store an abnormally large amount of energy allowing them to create significant effects with very simple spells.

#20

daidojitaidoru

May 20, 2009 10:08:33

The primary area where people see 'overlap' is with shadow and elemental. However, people have no friggin clue what these power sources are like, yet.

Pretty much this. There's a lot of fear over what might be, but all the "overlap" comes from power sources we literally know nothing about. If the Shadow power source comes from manifesting and manipulating something like Taint as a random example it will be completely different from Arcane. But we don't know what it is yet, so any judgments one way or the other are premature.

#21

thestupacabra

May 20, 2009 10:30:33

I'm starting to believe that Arcane should be viewed as the "jack of all trades" power source, at least from a thematic stand-point. It seems to dabble in the territory of many different power sources, but never quite reaches the depths specialization that an individual power source is capable of.

Which I don't see as a bad thing. Much of the assumption from the canon of pretty much every edition (fantasy in general really) is that magic permeates everything. It weaves through the lands, the creatures, even the planes themselves. It touches everything. Some one that was adept at manipulating magical energy (i.e. and Arcane class) would have abilities that "borrowed" from other sources, naturally.

It seems like they made Arcane what it pretty much always has been... A very flexible and diverse source of power.

#22

Grazel

May 20, 2009 13:40:29

Also I see Elemental as able to create and alter things on a basic level, making 'crude' things and shadow being able to create temporary forms of thins that aren't quite real. Arcane on the other hand can create complex and complete objects that are permanent (of course outside of combat). Elemental and Shadow also will lack force and psychic damage type powers.

Arcane's thing that seperates it from the other power sources is it works on the more 'completed' side of all the cosmic forces rather than dealing with the various components that make up the whole. This means that they can 'bleed' over into other power sources in their power manifestations but they'll never have the focused power that classes from those power sources have. On the other hand arcane can manifest things no other power source can because they can blend the others together.

Think of arcane energy (magic, Aert, Weave, etc) as the byproduct of the mix of the other basic energies of creation: Shadow, Divine, Elemental, Primal that only exists because the others all mingled and somewhat stayed mingled because of Gods and Spirits keeping the Primordials from reverting everything back into the Elemental Chaos.