Since it's up now, what do people think about the warlocks new vestige pact? Seems like its pretty cool. I've been waiting for a new conlock.
It looks more intricate/complex than existing Warlocks, because each daily power gives you another pact boon and interacts with your other powers.
Do need to make a short-name for the vestige lock though.... vest-lock
sounds silly maybe but whatever, it works.
It looks more intricate/complex than existing Warlocks, because each daily power gives you another pact boon and interacts with your other powers.
This is the first impression I got as well. I'm pleased about such a potentially tricky build. Pleased because I like tinkering with complex builds. :D
Also I think Vestige Warlocks might have the most damage potential.
Also I think Vestige Warlocks might have the most damage potential.
Judging by the second daily I'd say you're right.
Also I think Vestige Warlocks might have the most damage potential.
I'm impressed that you can determine that having only seen the at-will and 2 dailies ;)
Seriously though, it definitely looks cool. Run across enemies with a bunch of annoying save ends effects? Bust out Vestige of Xandor or King Elidyr! And Vestige of Ugar would be good if you were fighting other Warlocks using Shadow Walk (or really anything that's taking advantage of concealment).
A very customizable pact for an already customizable class.
I'm impressed that you can determine that having only seen the at-will and 2 dailies ;) :
It's a guess based on the second at-will, I never claimed to determine anything.
I think they have potential, but in reality, Warlocks could outdamage sorcerers if you discount the potential for oddities with the wild sorcerer powers, due to Called Shot. (Well aside from sorcerers getting multi-attack powers and applying damage everywhere, the only hard part is determining the ratio of Extra targets to single target and such for that kind of damage comparison).
Looks like there are still some Tome of Magic fans working at WotC, after all. I was so worried that the vestiges would be just a background concept rather than something you have to deal with every day. I hope there are still personality quirks and physical signs involved. That was such an awesome bit of flavor. Less pronounced, perhaps, but there.
I'm still hoping for the more involved stories of the vestiges ... but they seem shorter. I guess that's a small price to pay. At least the basic concepts made their way into 4E.
I am quite happy with it.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Thankfully, it all clicked a moment later. :D Whew! Very cool, very different, very complex.
So you automatically start with two vestiges that each give you an augment to your Eyes at-will power. Presumably, each gives you a different pact boon for dropping foes to 0 and you also have the Eldritch Blast at-will.
Each daily power gives you a new vestige with an associated augment to your Eyes at-will and an associated pact boon. You only use one vestige at a time and you change it after resting (so you are not changing wildly through 10 different vestiges, pact boons, and augments every encounter :crazy
.Well.....
- Only counting dailies and at-wills you can have up to 6 vestiges, right??
- What will encounter powers give you? More vestiges??
- Augments and pact boon powers won't scale, right? In other words, the augment from an at-will-gained vestige will be comparable to the augment from a daily-gained vestige, right? Just the base damage or effect of each power should scale, right?
:heehee I think I'm still a bit addled from first reading the text! This must be what it's like to read a spell you don't know yet. :P
PS (Hmm...I've never seen the binder, so that may have added to my initial confusion.)
'stige-lock
Uh-oh. UH-OH! Do I see the new shorthand for Vestige Pact Warlock??!! It's the best one I've seen............hafta say.....kinda likin' the sound of it.......
Since the former might make it easier to manage since there are seven levels of dailies with three to four, which makes between 23 (21 dailies and 2 at wills) and 30 (28 and 2). Not counting Paragon classes.
First, what are the pact boons for the two starting pacts?
Second, if I choose to use Eyes to put a curse on the target, does he take the curse damage that turn, or does the curse take hold after the attack is resolved?
Third, how long do the Daily pacts last? Does using one of those unlock that pact for the rest of the day? Just for the one encounter? I'm assuming it's only for the one encounter, since Ugar creates a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter, and the pact boon is moving the zone around.
Actually, the article also doesn't tell what kind of action it is to change vestiges. (Yeah, I know it's just a preview.)
This option looks much more complicated than some of the other pacts, what with being able to switch pacts on the fly and all. That's not bad per se, but I hope it runs faster at the table than it looks like... because as written, I know at least one of my players I wouldn't want to see taking it. He has enough trouble keeping track of the rules on his power cards when it's all written out for him, much less having to gather together information from three different locations and keep track of which vestige he's using.
Does this let you curse an enemy through the use of the at-will once per encounter, or does it just do 1d6 + Con damage and you get the augment bonus? Do you even get the bonus?
Do need to make a short-name for the vestige lock though.... vest-lock
Bind-lock? Because it's basically a binder?
I was hoping for a full-blown class. Instead, it's a path... for a striker no less!
However, I am a little excited that we are getting the Binder (and pretty soon too!) Not to mention, it looks like one of the most complex strikers made. I suppose, if Wizards were to lure me into a striker class, this is the way to do it.
Can't say I'm surprised, but I'm glad with the direction they're taking.
Now I actually have something to look forward to in the Arcane Power book.
It looks like that will be a very versatile setup.
In fact, the Vestige Pact itself seems (from the spoiler) to be an almost self-contained Pact path... no need for Two-Fold Pact at paragon, as you will have more Pact Boons than you know what to do with... and arguably you can delay Sacrifice to Caiphon as your At-Will is being augmented by various dailies.
As for a name... how about the Pokélock... gotta catch 'em all! :D
I just don't feel like that's enough.
To be honest, I don't like it. Your pact with a particular vestige seems to grant you a daily attack power (that doesn't require you to channel the vestige), a small augmentation to your at will attack, and a pact boon. The fluff for the vestige seems to be contained entirely in a single italicized sentence appended to a daily power.
I just don't feel like that's enough.
4e is very much "Fluff it yourself" in regards to classes. So I'm not at all surprised the lack of flavor text. I find making your own flavor is very rewarding.
4e is very much "Fluff it yourself" in regards to classes. So I'm not at all surprised the lack of flavor text. I find making your own flavor is very rewarding.
But what made pact magic cool in 3e was the weird and creepy vestiges, and the way they gave you weird and creepy abilities. Its not just the lack of flavor, its the lack of mechanics with flavor.
But what made pact magic cool in 3e was the weird and creepy vestiges, and the way they gave you weird and creepy abilities. Its not just the lack of flavor, its the lack of mechanics with flavor.
*looks back at her Tome of Magic book* No. You're wrong. The abilities are not creepy at all... the fluff is though. Add it yourself. <3
But what made pact magic cool in 3e was the weird and creepy vestiges, and the way they gave you weird and creepy abilities. Its not just the lack of flavor, its the lack of mechanics with flavor.
What kind of mechanics would you like to have seen with them?
PtM
At-will, at level five, can do 1d6 + 1d8 + Con + Curse damage...
1d6+con +1d6+con +1d6 = 3.5+4+3.5+4+3.5 = 18.5
Nope sorry, Hellocks still do more damage (as can Starlocks) with their at wills.
The only thing the vesitage pact has is better crit damage.
Bind-lock? Because it's basically a binder?
This, I nominate this. It's short, simple, and easy to say. It fits well next to, hell-lock, fey-lock, star-lock, and dark-lock.
What kind of mechanics would you like to have seen with them?
Its not specific mechanics per se.
The 3e binder used complex, detailed vestiges that granted multiple abilities, including benefits and drawbacks. It had detailed fluff for each vestige, and that fluff explained the sometimes disparate abilities that each pact granted. With simpler fluff, you won't get the same stories you did before. That won't let you justify as many possibilities and combinations as before. With fewer abilities per vestige, you won't have the option for the number of possibilities and complexities as before.
In short, each vestige in 4e contributes only a daily attack, an augment to your at will attack, and a pact boon. Each vestige in 3e contributed, in general, four to five full sized abilities, a physical mark that showed up on your body, and a behavioral compulsion. I'm sure the class as a whole is fine, but the individual vestiges just won't be as interesting in this version. They can't be, not with the full page of flavor per vestige shrunk to one line, and the four or five full abilities shrunk to two full abilities and an augment, and the drawbacks deleted.
That doesn't mean it won't be a good class. And I don't have an idea for how make the 4e class template fit with the 3e binder. And I know that a warlock with a vestige pact isn't a binder per se, its a warlock that uses vestiges. I just don't find this as interesting.
And because of how they're built, it should be possible for DMs to make campaign-specific Vestiges!
Only counting dailies and at-wills you can have up to 6 vestiges, right??
Why do you think At-Wills give you Vestiges? Is there something I'm missing?
I think the two starting Vestiges will be Daily powers granting you King Elidyr and Zutwa.
Second, if I choose to use Eyes to put a curse on the target, does he take the curse damage that turn, or does the curse take hold after the attack is resolved?
Considering its a free Curse (doesn't cost an extra action), I'd say you have to wait until after the attack is resolved.
If you want to havethe Eyes deal the extra curse damage I'd say use a minor action to curse your target, use Eyes and then use the Eyes curse to curse someone else.
I was hoping for a full-blown class. Instead, it's a path... for a striker no less!
Why on earth were you expecting a new class in a Power book? They've outright said the only books that will have new classes are PHBs and Campaign Setting Player books.
Why do you think At-Wills give you Vestiges? Is there something I'm missing?
Actually there are two King Eildyr and Zutwa that are given to all vestiage pact members, the rest will be daily. I seriously doubt they will give the vestiage pact 2 dailies to use at level 1.
Actually there are two King Eildyr and Zutwa that are given to all vestiage pact members, the rest will be daily. I seriously doubt they will give the vestiage pact 2 dailies to use at level 1.
My interpretation was that at level 1, you have two daily powers to choose from, each of which grants you a pact as per normal rules.
I might be wrong, but that seems to make sense.
My interpretation was that at level 1, you have two daily powers to choose from, each of which grants you a pact as per normal rules.
I might be wrong, but that seems to make sense.
You might get two daily powers to choose from but it won't be King and the other one, those are given to ALL vestiage pact warlocks (so that you have a boon when you don't have a daily power) you select them during short/extended rests.
I will now start developing a seriously thought out oriental and shadow themed warlock pact.
It will be the best way to represent mystical ninja...
You might get two daily powers to choose from but it won't be King and the other one, those are given to ALL vestiage pact warlocks (so that you have a boon when you don't have a daily power) you select them during short/extended rests.
Yeah I misunderstood how the Vestige's worked. I thought it was a case of you picking your vestige after an extended rest (similar to a Wizard's spellbook).
Am I the only here who just LOVES all those 'encounter long' dailies that give you new abilities(or boosts current ones)? Beacon of Hope, Stances, Rages, Guardian Forms, summons, a few of the Bard's songs (Stirring Shout Hit Point Pinata!!) and now Vestige. I really like those a LOT better than one-shot dailies that are just one big attack that might just miss (even if reliable) and offer no real lasting impact on the game. I especially like the ones that give you tactical choices to vary your strategies.
Some are cool, but some are very overpowered, so aren't so cool.
A mixture is good, I think.
"ZUTWA... I choose you!!!"
Why on earth were you expecting a new class in a Power book? They've outright said the only books that will have new classes are PHBs and Campaign Setting Player books.
I was *hoping* for a new shadow source (or elemental/whatever) class that used vestiges called the Binder in a future PHB. However, since they've thrown the vestiges to the Warlock in AP, I think the chances of them doing another class based on the same mechanics are slim to none.