Friday 04/10: A look at a new epic destiny -- the archlich!
Looks like that annoying "players are strongly discouraged from playing evil characters in 4th edition" thing is being slowly eroded.
EDIT: ThaX is gonna hate this.
I'm not so sure about that. If you have Open Grave, I'd recommend taking a look at the entry on Baelnorn Liches.
I figure, if someone becomes a Lich through a benign ritual (i.e., no virgin sacrifices, burning of clerics, etcetera) so they can continue to study, master, and research arcane magic, then that doesn't make them evil.
Necromantic architypes are popular among a lot of players, even if they aren't everyone's cup of tea. Of course we were going to see necromantic themed PC options eventually. We're bound to see more in the future (especially when the Shadow Power source is released).
That said, Necromantic themes are a bit fringe for D&D, not dead center in the classic 'fantasy heroes' mold. That, and thematic necromantic abilities were all problem areas in previous editions (spells making squishy casters harder to kill then buff fighter types, spells KOing enemies in a single hit, spells creating an ever larger pool of game-time hogging minions pulled from DM and Monster books). They needed extra attention to help them retain their theme without damaging gameplay, so it makes sense that they didn't try to fit them into the very first PHB.
Snarls_at_Fleas: I see your postscript and shall have mercy. If you click on "Edit" in the original post, and then click on "Go Advanced" you can change the title of the thread. Best of luck to you!
Guess they finally got sick of the hundred and 12 threads about home brewing a lich that got started each day.
Really ?!
Lich Ritual is in the MM.
Lich Ritual is also in Doctor Hook's Ritual index link, just above.
It's kinda simple.
I don't know what the problem is.
**
EDIT --->
Friday 04/10: A look at a new epic destiny -- the archlich !!
Oh Noes!!
Cover your eyes, whelplings!!
Really ?!
Lich Ritual is in the MM.
Lich Ritual is also in Doctor Hook's Ritual index link, just above.
It's kinda simple.
I don't know what the problem is.
Because that template is not applicable for PCs. A player can't use it.
Because that template is not applicable for PCs. A player can't use it.
You are right, the template isn't applicable for PCs.
A player can use the Lich Transformation ritual. If he does, he'd better be prepared to hand his character sheet over to the DM and expect to see his character as a BBEG later on.
At least in my games, when you apply a template to yourself (no matter how it happens), your character becomes an NPC the instant you add any part of the template to your character.
You are right, the template isn't applicable for PCs.
A player can use the Lich Transformation ritual. If he does, he'd better be prepared to hand his character sheet over to the DM and expect to see his character as a BBEG later on.
At least in my games, when you apply a template to yourself (no matter how it happens), your character becomes an NPC the instant you add any part of the template to your character.
Completely fair, the templates just aren't for player use. Mostly due to giving you a status (that of Elite, generally) that players can't have. The double HP and all the other hax that comes along with it certainly don't make it open to PCs either.
dont like the archmage, dont like the lore one in the phb2 either.
great here comes another epic destiny path for arcists that I will dislike.
dont like the archmage, dont like the lore one in the phb2 either.
Why do you dislike them? Why do you think you'll dislike the Archlich, which hasn't been revealed yet? Is it a flavour thing; do you just not dig Arcane magic?
I didnt care to much for the racial ones in the phb2 either.
nah the archlich like the lich would have been better as a template.
I didnt care to much for the racial ones in the phb2 either.
Templates don't work on PCs.
this is the first thing in 4e I have ever seen that in my opinion is overpowered. Archlich potency needs to lose the damage resistance property. The 30th level ability is just whacked! I mean sure it's level 30 and thats like on the brink of godhood but JEEZ >_> get into a battle with some minions and you won't ever run out of spells it seems.
My main problem with the archlich though is that the archlich gets SIX features. The most I seen is 3... what the hell? Makes every other ED look like crap.
this is the first thing in 4e I have ever seen that in my opinion is overpowered. Archlich potency needs to lose the damage resistance property. The 30th level ability is just whacked! I mean sure it's level 30 and thats like on the brink of godhood but JEEZ >_> get into a battle with some minions and you won't ever run out of spells it seems.
My main problem with the archlich though is that the archlich gets SIX features. The most I seen is 3... what the hell? Makes every other ED look like crap.
I have to agree that Archlich is pretty strong, but note that its level 30 is strictly worse than the demigod level 30 feature. Divine Miracle gives you literally unlimited encounter powers. This one gives you encounter powers as long as things near you die. Strictly worse.
Not saying that you're wrong. Archlich potency is pretty crazy strong, perhaps better than Demigod's divine regeneration.
This is the first ED I've seen that gives Demigod a real run for its money.
I seen some crazy stuff but I can't believe i'm about to say this....
this is the first thing in 4e I have ever seen that in my opinion is overpowered. Archlich potency needs to lose the damage resistance property. The 30th level ability is just whacked! I mean sure it's level 30 and thats like on the brink of godhood but JEEZ >_> get into a battle with some minions and you won't ever run out of spells it seems.
My main problem with the archlich though is that the archlich gets SIX features. The most I seen is 3... what the hell? Makes every other ED look like crap.
I think you need to look a little harder for broken epic destinies, because they're all over the place. For one, Chosen of Silvanus is still leagues ahead, as well as Punisher of the Deities. Horizon Walker + Warmaster leads to all allies getting infinite actions. There are PLENTY of things in 4e that are WAY more broken than this; you're definitely overreacting.
Personally, I think this is an awesome way to finally let players become liches if they want to. The epic destiny's mechanics captures the flavor of a lich quite well, and using the phylactery as its return-from-dead mechanic is very fitting. I like it.
I think you need to look a little harder for broken epic destinies, because they're all over the place. For one, Chosen of Silvanus is still leagues ahead, as well as Punisher of the Deities. Horizon Walker + Warmaster leads to all allies getting infinite actions. There are PLENTY of things in 4e that are WAY more broken than this; you're definitely overreacting.
Personally, I think this is an awesome way to finally let players become liches if they want to. The epic destiny's mechanics captures the flavor of a lich quite well, and using the phylactery as its return-from-dead mechanic is very fitting. I like it.
Punisher of the Gods is widely acknowledged to be broken in certain builds, as well as Warmaster in certain builds as you've pointed out. For general play that your friendly neighborhood DM would allow at his table, Demigod was touted as the best ED.
But you can't but wonder if this isn't just flat-out better, except for the level 30- but then again, an orbizard doesn't really give much thought to encounter powers. He drops Legion's hold and orblocks Vecna to death, and afterwards ganks his stuff.
Honestly, the Archlich needs this extra crap cause it's not as good as some of the others. I recall a martial epic destiny that would rise on his next turn if he died and then at the end of the encounter if he died again and very literally could not die.
At 30th level. Archlich cannot die from 21st.
So two of 5 arcane classes get a benefit from the +2 int, but it is great if you are multiclass wizard.
I give it my thumb of approval currently, lets see what it looks like in print.
At 30th level. Archlich cannot die from 21st.
You can die as an Archlich after 21st level. They just have to destroy your phylactery in addition to killing you.
A thought as an arch lich you gain a +2 to int, while i applaud this bonus, I still feel sorry for the warlock and the sorcerer, bard, on the other hand this will make an interesting swordmage, or at least I think it will be interesting.
So two of 5 arcane classes get a benefit from the +2 int, but it is great if you are multiclass wizard.
Warlocks and cunning bards are fine with +2 INT, which improves many of their secondary effect/abilities. Sorcerers are SOL though. Just means that Archlich is a poor choice for single class sorcerers.
Archlich’s Phylactery (21st level): You create
a magical receptacle that contains your life force.
When you drop to 0 hit points or fewer, you and your
possessions crumble to dust. A day later, you reappear
alive with maximum hit points in a space adjacent to
your phylactery, with all your possessions.
Note that it reads "when you drop to zero hit points. Not "when you die" or "when you reach negative bloodied HP" or anything else. You fall down, you're gone immediately for at least a day. No getting healed back to a positive total. Just gone, and for a minimum of 24 hours unless your DM is nice enough to let Raise Dead work on your ashes. Every time you drop to zero HP the party either has to call it a day or soldier on without you.
Now, at 24th level you get:
Mastery over Death (24th level): Once per
day, when you die, you can empower your undead
form instead of dying. You regain hit points equal to
half your maximum hit points. Until the end of the
encounter, you can’t spend healing surges, and any
creature that attacks you and deals damage takes
ongoing 20 necrotic damage (save ends).
That makes you a little tougher, but cripes, it's only +bloodied value in HP once a day, and you can't spend surges till the end of the encounter. Wizard HP at Epic level are truly rotten compared to everything else in the game, so this is pretty weak as an assist.
The phylactery thing is all very well and good, but Archlich or no, you're still as squishy as it gets. You may not stay dead, but you sure need to be careful or the party's going to get fed up with waiting for you to respawn real fast.
The 30th level ability is just whacked! I mean sure it's level 30 and thats like on the brink of godhood but JEEZ >_> get into a battle with some minions and you won't ever run out of spells it seems.
Wizards are always strong against multiple soft targets. The feature is utterly worthless against solos, and of limited utility against elites. It's decent, and it fits the stereotype of "wizards like crowds" but it's a long way from overpowered unless you can find a lot of minions to kill, and delay killing them till you really need the recharge.
So now the archlich is a PC option to let non-evil players become something akin to a lich without having to become evil in the proccess.
As far as the phylactery goes I hope it gets adjusted to specify a time limit before the dust happens, like 'end of encounter' or something. Gives the party time to revive the archlich or maybe make it so that even if they crumble to dust if healing magic is used on the dust (or raise dead ritual if really desperate) it can reform the archlich's body early.
Every time you drop to zero HP the party either has to call it a day or soldier on without you.
Now, at 24th level you get:
That makes you a little tougher, but cripes, it's only +bloodied value in HP once a day, and you can't spend surges till the end of the encounter.
More importantly, the two features are in conflict as written: you can never activate the Mastery of Death as long as your phylactery is up and running.
They need to be switched around so MoD kicks in at 0 HP, and the phylactery at -bloodied.
Templates don't work on PCs.
Ah. Yes they do, but they're called MultiClass Feats and Paragon Paths. Oh and Epic Destinies. :D