Here's my original blog post about it http://4espoilers.blogspot.com/2009/08/assasin-preview-at-gen-con.html
and I just finished a partial transcription of the picture here http://4espoilers.blogspot.com/2009/08/assassin-transcription.html
Enjoy!
Hmmmm ......
Also, Ki focus. lol
....Which feels very oddly appropriate to me since it managed to tie in one of my ki class ideas into it.
....Which feels very oddly appropriate to me since it managed to tie in one of my ki class ideas into it.
It feels rather unsettling to me, as it could indicate that the assassin is just the ninja by a different name. This disappoints me because I think ninja is a better name and that the ninja should be a published option rather than remain DDi exclusive. However my largest objection is that I don't like the flavor of "traded away a part of your soul" to be forced onto the ninja concept (even if flavor is mutable).
It feels rather unsettling to me, as it could indicate that the assassin is just the ninja by a different name. This disappoints me because I think ninja is a better name and that the ninja should be a published option rather than remain DDi exclusive. However my largest objection is that I don't like the flavor of "traded away a part of your soul" to be forced onto the ninja concept (even if flavor is mutable).
Really? I personally find the idea of ninjas on their own to be rather boring(although I do like them more than pirates), but absolutely love the concept of trading a portion of your soul away as described.
Besides there are pretty much three types of ninja concepts, so this is only being forced onto one of them(and it really does make sense within the default cosmology).
If the Assassin uses Ki focus, why isn't there a Ki power source?
Because there is no reason to include a cognitive ghetto of a power source in order to house all the eastern classes just because some westerners can't seem to grasp the concept that the samurai is just a fighter, the wu-jen/shugunja fit in better with arcane/divine/elemental power sources, and ninja's really have more place in a "shadow" power source than they do in a cognitive ghetto called "ki." The remnant of a "ki focus" just infuses a little bit of eastern flavor into a class that is otherwise allowed to coexist with its peers, not be forced into a ghetto in order to keep it separate from its fairly similar western cousin classes.
Halfling Assassin Obsidian Stalker
Hmmmm ......
My attempts at intentionally reading too much into this to spark reaction failed (:P ), so on a serious not, I'll assume that's the title of one of the PPs. Maybe the teleport focus one? Or one that focuses on CA/strike from the shadows style attacks.
But, meh. Power sources can be homebrewed like anything else.;)
I also agree that Obsidian could be taken as a nod to DS. We shall know soon enough,
This has me wondering what the Ninja is gonna have when it comes out in the PHB4.
I think the assassin killed the ninja and took is stuff. :D
I think he's implying that it's a clue for Dark Sun as the '10 setting.
I think I was responding to myself implying it was a clue for Dark sun. :P
I think the assassin killed the ninja and took is stuff. :D
The assassin shadow killed the ninja and took its stuff. :D
The Assassin is a DDi exclusive and the Ninja, a more rounded and heroic class, will be around at some point. I just wonder what Wizards has in store for it.
I think I was responding to myself implying it was a clue for Dark sun. :P
Oh! b'duh. I really need to read posts more carefully.
As for ninjas... I just don't think they're tenable as their own class. Anything a ninja I can think of could do could be done with a rogue, ranger, or, it seems, an Assassin. Mix and match to get a Ninja. The rest is fluff.
Sorry, no.
The Assassin is a DDi exclusive and the Ninja, a more rounded and heroic class, will be around at some point. I just wonder what Wizards has in store for it.
The ninja is more heroic than the assassin?!? I have but one response to that.
Sorry, no.
The Assassin is a DDi exclusive and the Ninja, a more rounded and heroic class, will be around at some point. I just wonder what Wizards has in store for it.
Sorry, no.
The ninja is gone. Long live the assassin!
We don't need a ninja because the ninja is already covered under the assassin. Heroes are heroic. Classes are not heroic. There is no need for a class that is an exact copy of another class, but with a more "heroic" name.
Sorry, no.
The Assassin is a DDi exclusive and the Ninja, a more rounded and heroic class, will be around at some point. I just wonder what Wizards has in store for it.
*GASP!* thaX can read the future!
BURN THE WITCH!!!
So the want for a cut throat murderer is so popular that the Ninja fades into obscurity?
The Assassin DDi exclusive class is not the Ninja's replacement. I still hold out hope that the Shadow Dancer power set is saved for the Ninja.
BTW, if your gonna use a pic of the Blue Beetle, use the current guy, not the dead one.
Wow.
So the want for a cut throat murderer is so popular that the Ninja fades into obscurity?
The Assassin DDi exclusive class is not the Ninja's replacement. I still hold out hope that the Shadow Dancer power set is saved for the Ninja.
BTW, if your gonna use a pic of the Blue Beetle, use the current guy, not the dead one.
Jaime doesn't go Bwa ha ha. :P
Love the pic! Ted Kord is a favorite of mine, and I really can't wait til Booster Gold/Blackest Night.
Wow.
So the want for a cut throat murderer is so popular that the Ninja fades into obscurity?
The Assassin DDi exclusive class is not the Ninja's replacement. I still hold out hope that the Shadow Dancer power set is saved for the Ninja.
BTW, if your gonna use a pic of the Blue Beetle, use the current guy, not the dead one.
BURN THE WITCH!!!
Erm I mean... its nice to have hopes thaX, no problem with that. Maybe we will get a Shadowdancer class.
Just don't state them like they're FACTS when you don't know more than we do.
Haven't read the comic for a bit, did the two meet yet?
Through the miracles of time travel, yes. Time travel fixes (or utterly destroys, thanks Booster) everything! :D
The remnant of a "ki focus" just infuses a little bit of eastern flavor into a class that is otherwise allowed to coexist with its peers
Why even keep the name "ki focus", though?
Wow.
So the want for a cut throat murderer is so popular that the Ninja fades into obscurity?
Yes, because professional spies, amoral political murders, and well-poisoners are so much more heroic than the Assassin presented in the Art of the Kill article huh?
It baffles me that you have such a dislike of the Assassin due to an utterly frozen concept of what the connotations of the phrase should be, and then turn around a lionize a guy who is nothing but the same fellow in footy-pajamas.
Here's a hint ThaX: Ninja is nothing more than the eastern centric term for the same profession, i.e., Assassin. Your holding that one is more heroic than the other is laughable. Sorry buddy, Ninjas are just as capable of evil and atrocity as their Western brethren, and no amount of romanticizing of one and ignorant deprecation of the other can change that. Either they both are evil and amoral De facto or both can have heroic motivations, because ultimately they are one in the same.
Q.E.D.
--------
On a realted note, I despise the idea of a ninja class. To much cultural baggage of men in footie pajamas and "Your class is your profession" nonsense for me to really get into. Assassin is a much more neutral term, albeit a little heavy on connotation, and is this more applicable and usable. I'm glad the ninja is dead. Long live the Assassin!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee17d5Oax7g
lmao :D
I think the assassin killed the ninja and took is stuff. :D
Nah.
If anything the ninja killed the assassin, skinned it, and is now wearing it as a disguise so that the grognards won't see what's coming until it's too late.
It baffles me that you have such a dislike of the Assassin due to an utterly frozen concept of what the connotations of the phrase should be, and then turn around a lionize a guy who is nothing but the same fellow in footy-pajamas.
Footy?
not all ninjas are created equal though ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee17d5Oax7g
Wow!I think you just broke my brain for a moment there.
Thank you.
Seriously.
Now I just need to decide if the experience was awesomely disturbing or disturbingly awesome.
Why even keep the name "ki focus", though?
A shout out to some of the classes eastern flavored origins? Its not like a single ability with the name ki in it is anything like an entire power source designed to become a cognitive ghetto. The ki focus bit doesn't bother me any.
Anyways, I am on the side of the people that says that there is no reason to create a ninja class. Between the rogue, which fulfills the more historically accurate/non magical assassin type, and the assassin, who fulfills the magical assassin type, there is really no point to a ninja class. Its covered. Creating a ninja class would be nothing more than a practice in orientalism (oh, but he's a ninja! Well then. That is totally different then its western counterparts. We have to make a class for that to depict just how different! Because, small blade wielding, ninja star throwing rogues, and shadow magic sword wielding assassins, just doesn't cover it. After all, the ninja is from the east! :rolleyes
.
I think you just broke my brain for a moment there.
Thank you.
Seriously.
Now I just need to decide if the experience was awesomely disturbing or disturbingly awesome.
Shinobuden is an hilarious nonsense comedy with wholesome yuri undertones but its really middle of the road in the end.
That part there where there's this huge epic battle with her evil doppleganger? Yeah...never happened -.- in fact there's no real ending to that show! Its pretty anti-climatic.
Maybe these ninjas wouldn't break your mind so much?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmbGp3ucKTs
Why even keep the name "ki focus", though?
To remind us that the Assassin ate the 3.5 Ninja. ;)
To remind us that the Assassin ate the 3.5 Ninja. ;)
Which happened just to rub thaX the wrong way :p
I can't wait to know more about that class! I pray for a CON attack stat!
I'll make a Wilden Assasin! Deforest THIS sucker!
forget blurry pics, just come here and tell us something cool
not all ninjas are created equal though ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee17d5Oax7g
lmao :D
My head! :X
My head! :X
Ninpou! Mass Confusion No Jutsu!! :D
NIN NIN!
To remind us that the Assassin ate the 3.5 Ninja. ;)
I still say that's obviously backwards
Footy?
Warforged assassin minions! Fling enough of 'em at the screen, and you may spend one healing surge.
I want a Mutant Turtle race writeup. Hmmm...
Because there is no reason to include a cognitive ghetto of a power source in order to house all the eastern classes just because some westerners can't seem to grasp the concept that the samurai is just a fighter, the wu-jen/shugunja fit in better with arcane/divine/elemental power sources, and ninja's really have more place in a "shadow" power source than they do in a cognitive ghetto called "ki." The remnant of a "ki focus" just infuses a little bit of eastern flavor into a class that is otherwise allowed to coexist with its peers, not be forced into a ghetto in order to keep it separate from its fairly similar western cousin classes.
Damn it, the ki power source could have been done without resorting to making it a cognitive ghetto. I had come up with multiple ideas that could have worked for a ki power source without resorting to that. *grumbles*
Why even keep the name "ki focus", though?
Because in 4th edition ki is pretty much synonymous(sp) with soul, and the ability is about focusing the portion of your soul that you recieved from the Shadowfell. And ki focus sounds cooler than soul focus.
Damn it, the ki power source could have been done without resorting to making it a cognitive ghetto.
Their biggest problem was trying to avoid the ghetto by forcing the monk and the wu jen to be in the same power source.
http://www.critical-hits.com/2009/08/14/gencon-4e-preview-the-assassin/
More info and nice pictures:
http://www.critical-hits.com/2009/08/14/gencon-4e-preview-the-assassin/
Dex/Cha/Con it seems...
Wow.
So the want for a cut throat murderer is so popular that the Ninja fades into obscurity?
The Assassin DDi exclusive class is not the Ninja's replacement. I still hold out hope that the Shadow Dancer power set is saved for the Ninja.
BTW, if your gonna use a pic of the Blue Beetle, use the current guy, not the dead one.
You seem so sure, are you willing to bet some money on it?? I'm equally sure that the Assassin is the replacement of the Ninja. I like easy money. And after reading about Assassins and Ki Focus, you seem to be blind if you really think it the way you told.
Dex/Cha/Con it seems...
Aww, I was hoping for something I could refluff as an int rogue. Int would make sense as a secondary for assassins, what with knowledge of locations of vital organs to stab, and such... still a neat-looking class that I'm interested in trying out, of course.
Maybe Martial Power 2 will have int rogues, in the way that AP had wis bards.
I am glad I can finally play a killer who can use other weapons besides a little dagger.
I aslo like the fact i can go unarmed and still be as deadly September can not come soon enough, also i do see it is a dex primary based class with a cha sub for one build but i didn't see where it is confirm there is a con sub build.
I really hope there is a dex/con build
CON secondary? Good enough for me! Wilden Assassin comin' up! MWUAHAHAHA!
Bullywug and Kenku assassins too.
I can finally make a battletoad
Personally, I will be a little miffed at a dex/con build. Not huge miffed! But a little. I would prefer a dex/cha and a dex/wis build. It makes more sense to me. But whatever the designers choose, I'm happy. But, after reading that it will be Dark Sun 2010, I would be happy if the assassin class was just a big, very late, April fools joke. :P
where is it confirmed that there is a con build i cant find it, i found the cha powers cant find the con ones
this is good, cause one of the reason why i hate rogues is cause i am limited to light blades.
I am glad I can finally play a killer who can use other weapons besides a little dagger.
I aslo like the fact i can go unarmed and still be as deadly September can not come soon enough, also i do see it is a dex primary based class with a cha sub for one build but i didn't see where it is confirm there is a con sub build.
I really hope there is a dex/con build
Actually, with the Ki Focus, the assassin can carry many different weapons for different occasions. I'm seeing him as being very very resourceful...
yeah i know some people are going to complain it steps on the rogues shoes too much because it may seem like it can do everything the rogue can do but better and less restrictions.
Actually, that's not true. I can see a number of things that the rogue can already do better than the assassin...
Dex/Con/Cha is my guess. Those are the highest stats for that halfling assassin (though Con/Int are close, 14 and 12 respectively).
Actually, with the Ki Focus, the assassin can carry many different weapons for different occasions. I'm seeing him as being very very resourceful...
Actually, with what it said about it imbuing their weapons with shadow energy, and how shadow magic requires a heavy toll on the soul, I'm really hoping they're constitution based. We don't know what is the default stat for shadow magic (Wisdom for Primal and Divine, Intelligence for Arcane), and so the Assassin might be like the Swordmage or the Avenger if Constitution is the go-to stat for the Shadow Source (And it friggin' better be!).
If they are Dexterity main, my guess is Dex/Con and Dex/Int, just because that satisfies the Shadar-kai and the Revenant.
EDIT: After seeing the new pictures, I am deeply saddened by WotC's need to make another Dex/Charisma class (Really? REALLY?). At least it looks like gnolls and revenants will finally have an ideal class (Dex/Con)...
Also, the math for the damage and attacks confuses me. I don't know why the dagger is +6 higher on attack than the bastard sword, and with another +4 damage than it... The damage for the powers seems to be based off of the Bastard sword, but the attack seems to be based off the dagger. Thoughts?
We don't know what is the default stat for shadow magic (Wisdom for Primal and Divine, Intelligence for Arcane)
What do you mean a "default stat", I don't get it, Barbarians don't use Wis and Sorcerers don't use Int
I'm confused about the Ki focuses; can the Assassin use anything as a weapon effectively or can they just enchant anything? It looks like they can just enchant anything on the fly, but it does the same damage, nothing a Belt of the Brawler can't fix though.
It would be cool to play an Assassin who's very good with weapons , but doesn't really need one; I can see em dressed in a priest disguise, just tossing his enemy's sword on the ground after he's done killing him with it, and then walks away unarmed.
What do you mean a "default stat", I don't get it, Barbarians don't use Wis and Sorcerers don't use Int.
Well, of course not. But Wisdom is certainly the only caster stat (I'm talking about for the actual magic-stuff here) for Primal characters, and the same for Divine (also Avenger, because they fight not unlike a divine swordmage in many ways). Intelligence isn't the only stat for Arcane characters, but it's used by Wizards, Swordmages, and Artificers, and is certainly the most common (Compared to 1&1/2 for Charisma, and 1/2 for Constitution).
But that's all moot anyways, since the Assassin is clearly Dexterity main, with CON/CHA as secondary stats.
Also, the math for the damage and attacks confuses me. I don't know why the dagger is +6 higher on attack than the bastard sword, and with another +4 damage than it... The damage for the powers seems to be based off of the Bastard sword, but the attack seems to be based off the dagger. Thoughts?
I'm answering my own question. It seems Assassins must have some class feature or something that lets them attack with daggers, or maybe all light blades, using their Dexterity mod in place of Strength. Thus, the basic attack for the Bastard Sword sucks because it is based off of his strength mod (which is 6 lower than the Dex Mod), but the basic attack with the dagger is based off of his Dexterity mod (The damage is only 4 lower than the Bastard sword because it lacks the weapon focus). They both appear to be +3 magic weapons, or the Assassin's Ki focus (I think soul focus sounds better, but whatever) is a +3, which is more likely.
Also, it seems that Assassins get 4 HP per level, which is a first for a non-controller class. It appears to be 10 + Constitution score, and then 4 HP per level, resulting in 64 HP at level 11 with a CON score of 14.
They also appear to start out proficient in leather armor only.
So, it's reasonable to assume that the Assassin, with 10+CON and 4 HP per level, and with leather armor, it about as squishy as most controllers, but very clearly a Striker. Interesting...
Looks very different from a rogue.
My attempt at a class pane (Speculation in Italics):
Assassin
Role: Striker. Blah blah blah description...
Power Source: Shadow. Blah blah blah...
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Charisma, Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee (at least), Unknown...
Implement: Ki Focus; weapons...
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will
Hit Points at first level: 10 + Constitution score
Hit Points per level gained: 4
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + CON
Trained Skills: Unknown, but includes: Acrobatics, Stealth, Bluff, Thievery, Endurance (Stealth seems to be recieving a +3 benefit from somewhere, perhaps a class feature but probably an item)
Build Options: CON, CHA
Class Features: Assassin's shroud, Shade Form, Shadow Step, Guild Training
In short, it seems we have received a playable portion of the Assassin now. If you take all the same powers as in the preview, and only use those feats for assassins listed, it seems to be thoroughly playable. Kick ass!
EDIT: The dagger using dexterity is most likely just it's light thrown attack, nevermind.
At least it looks like gnolls and revenants will finally have an ideal class (Dex/Con)...
And kobolds.
But that's all moot anyways, since the Assassin is clearly Dexterity main, with CON/CHA as secondary stats.
No its not. Its clearly Dexterity main, with Cha as a secondary stat for one build. We have no idea what the second stat will be yet. Speculation favors Con, Wis, or Int, with Con being the most commonly speculated out of the three. Speculation is also not fact.
No its not. Its clearly Dexterity main, with Cha as a secondary stat for one build. We have no idea what the second stat will be yet. Speculation favors Con, Wis, or Int, with Con being the most commonly speculated out of the three. Speculation is also not fact.
He also has Endurance as a class skill, which isn't neccisarily proof either, but it helps. They're also as squishy as a controller, so if they don't have CON as a secondary stat, they're thoroughly screwed for survivability...
Sorry if I appeared to be stating that as a fact, it was simply my opinion. But if it isn't CON, I will be very VERY disappointed in WotC...
Also, I updated my earlier post with a bunch of speculation.
But I won't complain either way really. It will make it easier for me to build a mechanically potent dwarf ghorad'din character if they do go con.
Haven't read the comic for a bit, did the two meet yet?
Jaimie, Ted, and Booster saved the world with football. It was awesome.
CON secondary? Good enough for me! Wilden Assassin comin' up! MWUAHAHAHA!
"We are not ninjas. We are a hedge. Please, move on."
This has me wondering what the Ninja is gonna have when it comes out in the PHB4.
An 11th level encounter power, a 12th level utility power and a 20th level daily power. Oh, and 3-4 path features.
An 11th level encounter power, a 12th level utility power and a 20th level daily power. Oh, and 3-4 path features.
Nice. As an update:
My attempt at a class pane (Speculation in Italics):
Assassin
Role: Striker. Blah blah blah description...
Power Source: Shadow. Blah blah blah...
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Charisma, Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee (at least), Unknown...
Implement: Ki Focus; weapons...
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will
Hit Points at first level: 10 + Constitution score
Hit Points per level gained: 4
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + CON
Trained Skills: Unknown, but includes: Acrobatics, Stealth, Bluff, Thievery, Endurance (Stealth seems to be recieving a +3 benefit from somewhere, perhaps a class feature but probably an item)
Build Options: CON, CHA
Class Features: Assassin's shroud, Shade Form, Shadow Step, Guild Training
An 11th level encounter power, a 12th level utility power and a 20th level daily power. Oh, and 3-4 path features.
Lol'd.
I don't think the dwarves should make as good assassins as elves.
I agree, and as you said, they won't. But I do think that Revenants should make better assassins than elves, seeing as how they're Shadow based. If it's not Dex/Con, it should be Dex/Int, for Shadar-kai.
But almost everything points to constitution. The build is clearly a simple 16/16/13/11/10/8. The 11 in Wisdom is only from Paragon Tier's +1 to all, and that's the only reason that Intelligence has a point is because it had to go somewhere. They also have Endurance as a class skill, and the revenant is supposed to be a great assassin. Dex/Con is also the only stat pairing to be not done at all yet, and it makes the most sense given the fluff for Shadow Magic.
But how can you talk about Ninjas and forget him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-x5avG0T2U&feature=related :D :D :D
I agree, and as you said, they won't. But I do think that Revenants should make better assassins than elves, seeing as how they're Shadow based. If it's not Dex/Con, it should be Dex/Int, for Shadar-kai.
But almost everything points to constitution. The build is clearly a simple 16/16/13/11/10/8. The 11 in Wisdom is only from Paragon Tier's +1 to all, and that's the only reason that Intelligence has a point is because it had to go somewhere. They also have Endurance as a class skill, and the revenant is supposed to be a great assassin. Dex/Con is also the only stat pairing to be not done at all yet, and it makes the most sense given the fluff for Shadow Magic.
yeah it be better con.
Con based characters need some love.
I do wish the class was DEX/INT and DEX/CON
instead of the confirmed DEX/CHA
heres hopeing for Con
If I can build a light-blade version of this class, I'll drop my rogue and never look back.
It's looking iffy. Like most other Strikers, they get enough of their damage from their weapon that light blades aren't a great idea. The only reason they work for rogues is rogues get so much damage from sneak attack. If a rogue could sneak attack with a Bastard Sword, light blades wouldn't be viable for them either.
So no, you probably cannot build a light blade assassin that is as effective as one who wields a two-hander.
It's looking iffy. Like most other Strikers, they get enough of their damage from their weapon that light blades aren't a great idea. The only reason they work for rogues is rogues get so much damage from sneak attack. If a rogue could sneak attack with a Bastard Sword, light blades wouldn't be viable for them either.
So no, you probably cannot build a light blade assassin that is as effective as one who wields a two-hander.
Which, if its true, will be sort of sad. The dagger is the penultimate assassin weapon. But *shrug.* I don't plan on judging until I can see the article.
Which, if its true, will be sort of sad. The dagger is the penultimate assassin weapon. But *shrug.* I don't plan on judging until I can see the article.
Well, we can see enough to know that their striker class feature isn't affected by wielding a bigger weapon (like Sneak Attack is), so I don't see any way for it to be as viable.
Kinda sad, but it also helps really separate the Assassin from the rogue. The assassin is the guy who chops you up with a Shadowy Katana, to me, whereas the rogue is the one stabbing you.
Well, we can see enough to know that their striker class feature isn't affected by wielding a bigger weapon (like Sneak Attack is), so I don't see any way for it to be as viable.
Kinda sad, but it also helps really separate the Assassin from the rogue. The assassin is the guy who chops you up with a Shadowy Katana, to me, whereas the rogue is the one stabbing you.
Yea. It fits well with the assassin is a ninja theme. The shadowy killer with a sword...
Still, it will leave me sort of sad. I like everything about the concept of this assassin, but I still envision an assassin with a dagger, not a sword. Ah well. Perhaps a hybrid assassin/rogue or assassin multiclass rogue will successfully fulfill the sort of character I picture in my head.
Skewering Shroud:
When you wield a light blade, your shroud damage increases to 1d8.
On another note: is Shadow Step abusable, bag-of-rats style? If I drop or throw a rat into the square next to me, can I shadow step? If I wear a rat necklace, am I adjacent to the rats?
No, because useless creatures like rats don't take up space on the map, and are not considered a mechanical enemy, unless the DM wants them to be.
I'm hoping there will be a ranged attack build for the assassin.
A sniper with a superior crossbow would be the doodoo.
I'm hoping there will be a ranged attack build for the assassin.
Wouldn't it be ironic if the build that uses CON is a ranged build? Heheh.
Sorry, no.
The Assassin is a DDi exclusive and the Ninja, a more rounded and heroic class, will be around at some point. I just wonder what Wizards has in store for it.
I find this to always be an appropriate response in such a situation.
(credit given to legorobot)
I find this to always be an appropriate response in such a situation.
(credit given to legorobot)
LOL
I approve of this message. :D
I guess this is mostly flavor: effects won't look like casting spells, it will be more like manifesting darkness directly out of your body. But flavor can have an influence on what sorts of effects the powers have. E.g. more Close than Ranged attacks, perhaps?
Can't help but speculate if this sort of thinking is a viable way to make Elemental seem more different from Arcane, as well?
It looks like it's been overlooked so far, but the preview not only gives u sthe name of one of the PPs (Obsidian Stalker), but one of the builds too - Night Stalker. It's listed in one of the powers as the build bonus effect.
Oh, duh. Looked at the Feats pic again and it's listed there under Guild training. But guild training might be the name for builds, like Monks and traditions.
In the mean time, basic ranged attacks with daggers and such are already Assassin's butter on the bread of melee, and I don't exclude that a few ranged weapon attacks will make their appearance since the beginning, although MAYBE not as At-Will (who knows, we could get one with a little luck).
As for melee weapons, dagger as main weapon really seems an untenable thesis, although some Assassin feats may very well increase the damage dice of small weapons with the excuse of enhancing them with shadow stuff... After all, if you have proficiency with long swords and can use them with your powers, why should it be unbalanced to spend a feat to use the dagger instead and do the same damage? Of course they would specify "when using it with Assassin's powers" in order to prevent abuse from multiclassing Rogues...
As for Ninja being a renamed Assassins, it is the other way around. The Ninja's skill at being an Assassin is only a part of what they do and are. It is the Assassin that is simple. (Paid - kill)
For those that have paid into DDi, enjoy, but I am not being suckered in this overpriced service.
I do like that Ki focus on weapons is being used instead of poisons.
One reason we will get the Ninja... The Assassin is a DDi exclusive.
And? If you don't want to get the DDi exclusive class, you won't get a supernatural ninja style character class. End of story. This is the service where this class can be found.
As for Ninja being a renamed Assassins, it is the other way around. The Ninja's skill at being an Assassin is only a part of what they do and are. It is the Assassin that is simple. (Paid - kill)
Nope. Those that think so are in the minority.
For those that have paid into DDi, enjoy, but I am not being suckered in this overpriced service.
Have fun not getting the supernatural ninja style character! Personally I think the content I am getting for DDi is well worth the price. Between the character builder, the monster builder, classes like the Assassin (read: Ninja), races like the revanent, all the free quests, and bonus feats/PP/ED, I'm really enjoying what I am paying for.
Between the character builder, the monster builder, classes like the Assassin (read: Ninja), races like the revanent, all the free quests, and bonus feats/PP/ED, I'm really enjoying what I am paying for.
Don't forget the almighty compendium
The service is a bargain for the price. You have access to every piece of printed material + the digital material for a low cost. Don't even really need to buy the printed material if you're a subscriber.Don't forget the almighty compendium
Seriously. Books like the Adventurer's Vault are now superfluous. I might get them anyway for table play, but if I am strapped for cash I can put off the purchase indefinitely, all because I dish out a couple of extra bucks a month for a ton of bonus content. Yea, ThanX s right. Its a horrible deal! Really. So terrible they are going to release a Ninja class just for him...
Has anybody considered that the Assassin could have a Ninja build?
No way, really. Ninja is how you call members of the Assassin class in an oriental setting. Just as it should be. And we won't get classes named Wu-Jen or Shugenja either: they'll get western names and the original names will be the default ones again ONLY in an oriental setting. Classes represent archetypes, they can't afford to make them culture-specific: they'd sell less.
I've been considering switching to a changeling rogue in my game (currently play a paladin, but we have another defender now)... think I'm going to hold off to see what the Assassin has to offer before I switch.
Yeah, I'm thinking a changling assassin could be a lot of fun. The fact that their ability scores are perfect for one of the builds is icing on the cake:D .
Earlier in the thread people were commenting on the squishiness of the assassin, but if they can become insubstatial easily as is implied in the article, it may not be an issue.
Earlier in the thread people were commenting on the squishiness of the assassin, but if they can become insubstatial easily as is implied in the article, it may not be an issue.
Well, they can pretty much go insubstantial for one round of attacks per encounter, or they can do it for longer and not attack anything. But that's excluding encounter powers and dailies that also give insubstantial, or maybe even phasing.
So yeah, they're still squishy. Slightly more so than a rogue, but less than a wizard.
And by the way: For my game, Ki focus is going to be called Soul Focus. Ki focus sounds so dumb for a shadow class, and Soul Focus sounds so much cooler...
Well, they can pretty much go insubstantial for one round of attacks per encounter, or they can do it for longer and not attack anything. But that's excluding encounter powers and dailies that also give insubstantial, or maybe even phasing.
So yeah, they're still squishy. Slightly more so than a rogue, but less than a wizard.
And by the way: For my game, Ki focus is going to be called Soul Focus. Ki focus sounds so dumb for a shadow class, and Soul Focus sounds so much cooler...
You could always play a Shadar-Kai and get an extra round per encounter, but it sounds like the teleportation will probably be redundant. I was thinking there's the warlock PP that's based on being insubstantial which might work well with assassin, but on a second look I don't think it would be a very good combo.
You could always play a Shadar-Kai and get an extra round per encounter, but it sounds like the teleportation will probably be redundant. I was thinking there's the warlock PP that's based on being insubstantial which might work well with assassin, but on a second look I don't think it would be a very good combo.
You know what is a good combo? The Githzerai auto-crit power from the Githzerai Paragon Path, and 4 stacks of Assassin's Shroud.
It looks like it's been overlooked so far, but the preview not only gives u sthe name of one of the PPs (Obsidian Stalker), but one of the builds too - Night Stalker. It's listed in one of the powers as the build bonus effect.
Now I feel a need to make an assassin named Kolchak.
One reason we will get the Ninja... The Assassin is a DDi exclusive.
Apples and oranges. Or something. Either way, between the Rogue and Assassin, there will be no class specifically named Ninja.
As for Ninja being a renamed Assassins, it is the other way around. The Ninja's skill at being an Assassin is only a part of what they do and are. It is the Assassin that is simple. (Paid - kill)
Really? Really? You're going to that tired old argument again, the same one every one of us has disproved with facts every single time you try to use it?
For those that have paid into DDi, enjoy, but I am not being suckered in this overpriced service.
Lol. Suckered. You have no idea what you're talking about.
I do like that Ki focus on weapons is being used instead of poisons.
Because any poison use will be covered by the Alchemy feats and Poison keyword powers. Just like every other class, especially the already existing Dark Pact Warlock and Artificers.
No way, really. Ninja is how you call members of the Assassin class in an oriental setting. Just as it should be. And we won't get classes named Wu-Jen or Shugenja either: they'll get western names and the original names will be the default ones again ONLY in an oriental setting. Classes represent archetypes, they can't afford to make them culture-specific: they'd sell less.
Right, because there's nothing even remotely culturally specific about the name PALADIN.
The term ninja may have originated in Japan, but the terminology and concepts have since been absorbed into a more generic culturally melting pot.
When people say that names like ninja are too culturally specific, what they usually mean is not European. That kind of attitude sickens me. D&D is not just some psudo-medieval game; it is a combination of myths and legend from around the world.
Right, because there's nothing even remotely culturally specific about the name PALADIN.
The term ninja may have originated in Japan, but the terminology and concepts have since been absorbed into a more generic culturally melting pot.
When people say that names like ninja are too culturally specific, what they usually mean is not European. That kind of attitude sickens me. D&D is not just some psudo-medieval game; it is a combination of myths and legend from around the world.
Well, I recognize I wrote without much attention, I could have avoided this.
My point is, a paladin, or better a member of the Paladin class, is a divine warrior that defends his/her allies. It's a general archetype, every culture could have its equivalent. They named it Paladin because it's the name that most users will instantly recognize, but they put few culture-specific things into the class, in order to let it open.
Now, parenthesis, they also said that the "core flavor" would have been generally medieval fantasy, which is intrinsically also medieval European.
Ninja is also a quite broad archetype that can include various sub-types, the problem is, at that point you just rename the Rogue class Ninja, that's it. If you instead want to create a specific type of ninja as a class, you're going out of what are the general and hopefully strict guidelines about class making: they got to be broad archetypes, they got to be different from every other class in both flavor and mechanics.
I agree with you that D&D should not be a strictly pseudo-medieval game, but to make it really multicultural, each class should have at least three or four names. Paladin would also be Sohei, Rogue also be Ninja etc. They have to choose a default cultural imprinting at least for the base mechanics. And I hope at this point you agree with me that it was better to create an Assassin class that clearly implies Ninjas are of that class than to create a Ninja class that would be discarded by a great many wanting to make a probably "completely ninja" character mechanically, just because they don't want anything called ninja in their classic medieval-European-feeling world... As I told before, it's a matter of selling ideas. Maybe it sells less to you, but they're sure that this way they'll sell more in general, and I'm sure too.
Right, because there's nothing even remotely culturally specific about the name PALADIN.
The term ninja may have originated in Japan, but the terminology and concepts have since been absorbed into a more generic culturally melting pot.
When people say that names like ninja are too culturally specific, what they usually mean is not European. That kind of attitude sickens me. D&D is not just some psudo-medieval game; it is a combination of myths and legend from around the world.
I can see how that argument might work for the Ninja, which has been absorbed as an english word, but not for Wu jen or Shugenja. Whether you like it or not, DnD is printed in English. Words, phrases, and names that people who speak english are familiar with are much more likely to be used.
As for the Ninja, however, with the Assassin and the Rogue, you can't make a Ninja class that isn't just one or a mix of those with an oriental feel. Well, you could, but then it wouldn't be a ninja. The truth is, Ninja is just the japanese word for Assassin. If you really look at what people want for a Ninja class, and then you'll look at the Assassin, all you'll notice different is that one is more commonly asian.
Whether thaX likes it or not, the ninja he's looking for is the Assassin class. The DDI Exclusive classes aren't going to be entirely superfluous just because they're DDI Exclusive, just like the Druid is PHB2 Exclusive. If you want a Druid but don't want to buy the PHB2, you don't get the druid. It's the same thing with the Assassin. They're not going to make a "Nature-caster-who-turns-into-animals-except-with-a-more-exotic-name" class in the PHB3 just because you don't think the PHB2 is worth buying. The same applies to the Assassin.
Of course, if you had DDI, you would get the druid without needing to buy the PHB2 anyways... And then you'd also get the Ninja *AHEM* I mean the assassin.
With all that said, I am SO EXCITED to play the Assassin! Even with 7 other Strikers, WotC proves that they can continue making intriguing, original, and fun mechanics for extra damage. If my games weren't RPGA, I'd get my DM to let me play an Assassin right friggin' now (because really, you can, so long as you don't go past level 11).
imagin an elf (+2 dex and wis) 13 str, 12 Con, 18 Dex, 8 Int, 15 wis, 14 cha...with hero of faith as his first level feat...
One reason we will get the Ninja... The Assassin is a DDi exclusive.
As for Ninja being a renamed Assassins, it is the other way around. The Ninja's skill at being an Assassin is only a part of what they do and are. It is the Assassin that is simple. (Paid - kill)
For those that have paid into DDi, enjoy, but I am not being suckered in this overpriced service.
I do like that Ki focus on weapons is being used instead of poisons.
I concur, thaX. Once again, your constantly re-used rhetoric has proven to be without flaw or error. Ninjas are completely different from assassins and weren't feared in feudal Japan as highly skilled, ruthless, and efficient paid killers (to the point that even saying 'ninja' in public was punishable by death). They never did things like wait in a man's toilet for three days for him to go to the bathroom in that particular toilet then drive a spike through all his major organs with the ****** as the entry point, they were honorable and threw fireballs around like Naruto!
Yes, thaX. You have shown us all the error of our ways. -Adjusts tinfoil hat, bubbles spilling from bowl of pipe-
I hope the assassin artical has the hybrid rules for the assassin...becuase for me to build a ninja...I think Hybrid rogue/assasin...maybe mult into avenger
imagin an elf (+2 dex and wis) 13 str, 12 Con, 18 Dex, 8 Int, 15 wis, 14 cha...with hero of faith as his first level feat...
I imagine it will, but I'm really hardly excited about that because I find the hybrid system to be clunky and very unwieldy.
But I can already see all the possible optimization concepts for the assassin with the way Assassin's Shroud works... hmmm... CharOP will have a field day.
I concur, thaX. Once again, your constantly re-used rhetoric has proven to be without flaw or error. Ninjas are completely different from assassins and weren't feared in feudal Japan as highly skilled, ruthless, and efficient paid killers (to the point that even saying 'ninja' in public was punishable by death). They never did things like wait in a man's toilet for three days for him to go to the bathroom in that particular toilet then drive a spike through all his major organs with the ****** as the entry point, they were honorable and threw fireballs around like Naruto!
Yes, thaX. You have shown us all the error of our ways. -Adjusts tinfoil hat, bubbles spilling from bowl of pipe-
lol
sarcasm ftw!
I am SO glad that WotC has decided to meld the assassin and ninja into one class. Now we won't have a whole new set of classes with similar themes to other classes, but with more oriental names like we did in 3e.
lol
sarcasm ftw!
I am SO glad that WotC has decided to meld the assassin and ninja into one class. Now we won't have a whole new set of classes with similar themes to other classes, but with more oriental names like we did in 3e.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Further agreed.
1. The artwork for the assassin on the character sheet clearly depicts ninjas. They're wearing black ninja robes with hoods and carrying katanas. They're ninjas.
2. The assassin's powers are stereotypical high magic ninja powers. While they do not cover every possible stereotypical high magic ninja power, they cover a lot of them. Meanwhile the rogue covers the no-magic ones.
3. The inclusion of ki foci as a means of allowing ninjas to fight unarmed seems to be an effort to allow in some extra ninja flavor.
4. WotC's treatment of asian fantasy in 4e seems to be one of borrowing from it and then westernizing it until the asian influences are difficult to perceive. WotC admits that the monk, for example, was intentionally sanitized of asian fluff, though in my opinion some stuck around. In terms of weaponry, we have separate stats for shortswords, longswords, bastard swords, fullblades, and broadswords, even for the khopesh, but apparently the katana has remained a bastard sword with a fancy description. The shuriken appears to be the lone exception to this trend. I think that its pretty clear that asian fantasy is only welcome at the 4e table if it shows up in drag.
I think that its pretty clear that asian fantasy is only welcome at the 4e table if it shows up in drag.
More that Asian fantasy doesn't have to be specifically labeled as Asian in 4e. If you want Asian, you make it Asian (Fighter = Samurai, Shaman = Shinto Priest, Assassin/Rogue = Ninja) . 4e is going for the default fluff.
These previews look cool, and their striker damage is definately a refreshing method. I'm not sure I completely understand their Ki Focus thing, but it seems to be a great versatility benefit. It definately allows your assassin to use whatever he wants (and with a certain level 3 Waist Slot item, almost literally whatever he wants).
The fluff is odd. In comparison to the Dark Pact Warlock, which I do believe also takes from the Shadowfell, there's a stronger bit of digging. The Warlock does strike me as our view into the many folds of D&D magic; it makes pacts with creatures of Divine nature, of Primal nature, of Arcane nature, and of Shadowy nature (and Vestiges are of none of these). And we see what classes are like when they go beyond the Warlock. Warlocks trade their soul to gain shadowy powers from the Shadowfell. Assassins sell parts of their soul to control this power as their own. Interesting stuff.
The fluff is odd. In comparison to the Dark Pact Warlock, which I do believe also takes from the Shadowfell, there's a stronger bit of digging. The Warlock does strike me as our view into the many folds of D&D magic; it makes pacts with creatures of Divine nature, of Primal nature, of Arcane nature, and of Shadowy nature (and Vestiges are of none of these). And we see what classes are like when they go beyond the Warlock. Warlocks trade their soul to gain shadowy powers from the Shadowfell. Assassins sell parts of their soul to control this power as their own. Interesting stuff.
Dark Pact actually has absolutely nothing to do with the Shadowfell. Dark Pact deals with Drow and Lolth (Who deals with the Abyss and Demons).
Note: Shadow =/= Darkness
So the Assassin is our first look at anything truly Shadow from the PC side. Very intriguing.
As far as I can tell, the Assassin isn't exactly trading his soul for power. It's not like working with Evil Devils, or Lolth, or Tricky Fey. Shadow doesn't have a mind of it's own. Shadow isn't evil. But shadow is dangerous. Imagine having to light your hand on fire, then slap your opponent. Now replace hand with soul, and fire with Shadow, and I think you get the picture (also replace slap with stab-in-the-face).
I love that fluff. Even if that's not what WotC ultimately goes with (and it looks like it is), that's what I'm using.
More that Asian fantasy doesn't have to be specifically labeled as Asian in 4e. If you want Asian, you make it Asian (Fighter = Samurai, Shaman = Shinto Priest, Assassin/Rogue = Ninja) . 4e is going for the default fluff.
Right, I know the theory. I just resent that it only applies to martial arts fantasy.
Enjoy your scimitar, kukri, khopesh, katar, and rapier. Those are all unique weapons deserving of their own statblock. And yes, we DO need multiple stat lines for the longsword, bastard sword, and broadsword. But a katana? That you shall not have. And meanwhile we'll make a ninja class and then rename it "assassin" even though we copied all of its powers from Vampire Hunter D villains, and then we'll draw ninjas all over the place for the artwork, but we'll call them "assassins" with "bastard swords." Because it would be culturally insensitive to explicitly acknowledge our source material. Oh, and we sanitized the monk a bit to make it less asian, too. I'm sure you're grateful.
And don't even get me started on the idea that "assassin" is the generic term and ninja is an "ethnic" subset. I'm filing that with the idea that curry is "ethnic food" while sphaghetti is "regular."
Just seems to be a fair amount of chauvinism going on here.
Even the freaking halflings and drow each get their own special, unique combat boomerangs. They're not even real cultures! Or weapons!
Right, I know the theory. I just resent that it only applies to martial arts fantasy.
Enjoy your scimitar, kukri, khopesh, katar, and rapier. Those are all unique weapons deserving of their own statblock. And yes, we DO need multiple stat lines for the longsword, bastard sword, and broadsword. But a katana? That you shall not have. And meanwhile we'll make a ninja class and then rename it "assassin" even though we copied all of its powers from Vampire Hunter D villains, and then we'll draw ninjas all over the place for the artwork, but we'll call them "assassins" with "bastard swords." Because it would be culturally insensitive to explicitly acknowledge our source material. Oh, and we sanitized the monk a bit to make it less asian, too. I'm sure you're grateful.
And don't even get me started on the idea that "assassin" is the generic term and ninja is an "ethnic" subset. I'm filing that with the idea that curry is "ethnic food" while sphaghetti is "regular."
Just seems to be a fair amount of chauvinism going on here.
Even the freaking halflings and drow each get their own special, unique combat boomerangs. They're not even real cultures! Or weapons!
I agree that a Katana should be a weapon. A superior Weapon.
In fact, I'll be calling my assassin's fullblade a katana, just because.
thus they should just remove it from the CB and DDI
we didnt need the assassin'after all you can just use a rogue and take a poisoned weapon and assassinate the target.
thus they should just remove it from the CB and DDI
You clearly have not looked at the assassin at all. Please do so, and then formulate an opinion based on what the class actually is, instead of what you're guessing it is.
You clearly have not looked at the assassin at all. Please do so, and then formulate an opinion based on what the class actually is, instead of what you're guessing it is.
I'm hoping he's making a joke. Otherwise ... oy.
I'm hoping he's making a joke. Otherwise ... oy.
So do I. But the Internets has conditioned me to respond as such...
we didnt need the assassin'after all you can just use a rogue and take a poisoned weapon and assassinate the target.
thus they should just remove it from the CB and DDI
You clearly haven't read the preview, they use shadow magic to do things in a very different way than the rogue, and don't use poison.
Besides, if you want to go there, you dont need a rogue because you can just use a fighter to take a poisoned weapon and assassinate a target without weapon restictions.
Besides, if you want to go there, you dont need a rogue because you can just use a fighter to take a poisoned weapon and assassinate a target without weapon restictions.
Even a wizard could do it. Not very well, but he could do it!
Even a wizard could do it. Not very well, but he could do it!
Disguise Self, Invisibility, or any of several other utility spells say otherwise.
the assassin will not replace the ninja, nor the shadow dancer.
they also said that when the assassin would not likely be the only shadow striker.
A katana could be a re-flavored bastard sword, or it could be a new weapon in AV3 or something.
As long as there's no power creep and it's balanced against other superior heavy blades, I don't see how it'd be an issue.
(BTW, I don't think a Fullblade would be a Katana. Katanas can be wielded 1h... Fullblade is probably a No-Daichi.)
So the Assassin is our first look at anything truly Shadow from the PC side. Very intriguing.
Our third look, really. After the Umbriri and Shadow Captain paragon paths, in the FRPG and MotP respectively.
Our third look, really. After the Umbriri and Shadow Captain paragon paths, in the FRPG and MotP respectively.
Those were but minor glimpses. The assassin is the first true eyeful.
Those were but minor glimpses. The assassin is the first true eyeful.
And then there's the Darklord from Dragon #372, which has shadow powers and some interesting Ravenloftian fluff.
Before I saw the assassin, I built a rogue/shadow assassin/darklord, but the assassin class is a better fit for what I had in mind.
As a discussion point: what does the rogue have that the assassin does not?
Not quite understanding how the shroud works. 1d6 per shroud... ok... can I put all 4 on at once? Since it's a free action.
Special: You can use this power only on your turn and only once per turn.
I would make Katana essentially a longsword with an added property like High Crit. Heavy Blade/Versatile/High Crit is a combo we don't have I believe.
Don't want to check, but I'm sure it's called Scimitar!
About the fluff of selling your soul etc and comparison with Warlock, I believe the mechanics clearly tell us that the Assassin trades his own vital force: it has controller hit points instead of striker hit points. The assassin's own body partially fades into shadow... If anybody read "Kafka on The Shore" by Haruki Murakami, think about the characters whose shadow is only half as dark than the rest of the world's...
Please name mechanics that would make the Ninja different from the Rouge and Assassin. What mechanical nieche could they fill between these two ?
You know that classes are more about mechanical packages than fluff-mechanic-package...
As a discussion point: what does the rogue have that the assassin does not?
Right off the bat, the rogues added striker damage over time is better. He can add 2d6 damage per round. The assassin can only add 1d6.
Right off the bat, the rogues added striker damage over time is better. He can add 2d6 damage per round. The assassin can only add 1d6.
Well, no. There's a class feature tied to the Cha option called Night Stalker (you can see it here and it is mentioned on the front page of the character sheet too) which is a good Cha mod damage to isolated foes. Static. So damage in heroic tier is already higher than any striker, although only on isolated foes (1d6+4/5 > 2d6), and can be built up to exceptional 4d6+Cha in 3 rounds, not 4, because a feat called Killer's Insight lets you add two shrouds in one round per encounter. You can, in the mean time, build up a bit of attack bonus so that the mighty and literally killing blow lands for sure. And with another feat, shroud damage is Brutal.
Well, no. There's a class feature tied to the Cha option called Night Stalker (you can see it here and it is mentioned on the front page of the character sheet too) which is a good Cha mod damage to isolated foes. Static. So damage in heroic tier is already higher than any striker, although only on isolated foes (1d6+4/5 > 2d6), and can be built up to exceptional 4d6+Cha in 3 rounds, not 4, because a feat called Killer's Insight lets you add two shrouds in one round per encounter. You can, in the mean time, build up a bit of attack bonus so that the mighty and literally killing blow lands for sure. And with another feat, shroud damage is Brutal.
Well, no, because if you are going to start adding in class features into the equation then the rogue has a number of powerful ones as well, including brutal scoundrel and ruthless ruffian, both of which grant a very easy way to add your strength modifier to the damage done. 2d6 + Stat mod is still more powerful than 1d6 + Stat mod. The rogue gets better striker added damage per round. The assassin can stack their damage together for a more powerful single attack... but the rogue has better striker DPS over time. Of course, an assassin can use a bigger weapon to make up for that. But, the rogue can take a feat to gain access to a 1d10 crossbow that they can use with their powers, so that sort of evens out that gap a somewhat. And, from what we have seen, the rogue gets better hit points.
The assassin looks like a very neat class. It does not, however, look like a hands down superior striker to the rogue. It just looks a little different so far. Of course, no fully accurate judgement can be made until we see the class powers.
Well, no, because if you are going to start adding in class features into the equation then the rogue has a number of powerful ones as well, including brutal scoundrel and ruthless ruffian, both of which grant a very easy way to add your strength modifier to the damage done. 2d6 + Stat mod is still more powerful than 1d6 + Stat mod. The rogue gets better striker added damage per round. The assassin can stack their damage together for a more powerful single attack... but the rogue has better striker DPS over time. Of course, an assassin can use a bigger weapon to make up for that. But, the rogue can take a feat to gain access to a 1d10 crossbow that they can use with their powers, so that sort of evens out that gap a somewhat. And, from what we have seen, the rogue gets better hit points.
The assassin looks like a very neat class. It does not, however, look like a hands down superior striker to the rogue. It just looks a little different so far. Of course, no fully accurate judgement can be made until we see the class powers.
True! I had completely forgot about Brutal Scoundrel and Ruthless Ruffian. Maybe because I was sure that the lower HP were there to justify the highest striker damage. In some way, I'm still sure the Assassin will gain that trophy.
Right off the bat, the rogues added striker damage over time is better. He can add 2d6 damage per round. The assassin can only add 1d6.
Actually, since the assassin's damage still kicks in on a miss, its better than it seems. If you wait until the fourth round to use your shroud, you will get +4d6 damage, or +3d6 on a miss. This brings you closer to the 2d6 per round mark.
So your reasoning isn't accurate, but you're still right. 2d6 per round adds up to more than 4d6, 3d6 on a miss, once every fourth round. The more accurate your attacks, the further the rogue pulls ahead. The assassin gets some mileage out of being able to use heavy blades, though, which should help even things out.
I guess I could run some numbers, that's usually what I do around here...
Human Brutal Rogue, using a rapier, with Nimble Blade feat, and with Backstabber (because we know you'll have these) versus Human Night Stalker Assassin, with a Fullblade, Brutal Shroud, and Weapon Focus.
Assuming each has combat advantage at all times (they're both highly mobile, this is quite plausible), that the Assassin get his Night Stalker advantage at all times (or equivalent damage from the at will that is Night Stalker in reverse), that they have 18 dex and 14 secondary stat, that they each have a +1 weapon, and that they're at level 4 attacking an enemy with an AC of 17 and a reflex of 15.
The rogue will use Piercing Strike to attack reflex. His attack bonus with flanking is +12 v ref, and he hits for 1d8+5 +2d8+2. On a critical hit he deals 31+1d6 damage. He will do this for four rounds to make the math work out on the comparison.
The assassin will use that at will who's name I forget that is Night Stalker in reverse. He will be attacking for +11 v ac, and hitting for 1d12+8. On a critical hit he will deal 20+1d12+6. On the fourth round he will deal additional bonus damage of 4d6 brutal 1 on a hit, 3d6 brutal 1 on a miss, and 24 on a critical hit.
The rogue's expected damage per round is .85*20.5 + .05*34.5 = 19.15. He will do that for four rounds, totalling 76.6 expected damage.
The assassin's expected damage per regular attack is .70*14.5 + .05*32.5 = 11.775. He will do that four times, for a total of 47.1. Then he will use his assassin's shroud, for an additional expected damage of .7*16 + .25*12 + .05*24 = 15.4. That gives him a four round total of 62.5.
Of course each character has advantages and disadvantages other than this math. The rogue has more hit points. The assassin gets more benefit from higher [W] attacks with his fullblade than the rogue gets with his rapier. The assassin is more mobile. The rogue can lose his damage if he can't get combat advantage. The assassin can lose his bonus damage, or waste it, if he times things wrong. You get the idea. But in pure damage abstraction, the rogue generally pulls ahead.
True! I had completely forgot about Brutal Scoundrel and Ruthless Ruffian. Maybe because I was sure that the lower HP were there to justify the highest striker damage. In some way, I'm still sure the Assassin will gain that trophy.
I doubt it. I think we have already seen the strength of the assassin. And, its not a strength to be laughed at! The assassin gets a couple of unique benefits over the rogue. 1) He doesn't have to hit someone against whom he has combat advantage to gain his striker damage dice. 2) He can stack his striker damage together in order to make a single, powerful, opportune attack. 3) If he misses with the attack, his bonus striker damage dice still hurt the target (though for a little less damage then they usually would).
None of these benefits are to be laughed at. The rogue, however, has better DPS over time (as long as he can keep combat advantage against a foe).
Actually, since the assassin's damage still kicks in on a miss, its better than it seems. If you wait until the fourth round to use your shroud, you will get +4d6 damage, or +3d6 on a miss. This brings you closer to the 2d6 per round mark.
So your reasoning isn't accurate, but you're still right. 2d6 per round adds up to more than 4d6, 3d6 on a miss, once every fourth round. The more accurate your attacks, the further the rogue pulls ahead. The assassin gets some mileage out of being able to use heavy blades, though, which should help even things out.
My reasoning wasn't inaccurate. If you wait till your 4th round to hit, your striker damage per round is still only +1d6. You just wait to stack it together for a single more powerful attack. And, I already stated that that was possible, and was one of the assassins benefits. It doesn't, however, grant more damage per round.
All your math proved was one thing: my statement was correct, and for the exact reasons I stated.
I doubt it. I think we have already seen the strength of the assassin. And, its not a strength to be laughed at! The assassin gets a couple of unique benefits over the rogue. 1) He doesn't have to hit someone against whom he has combat advantage to gain his striker damage dice. 2) He can stack his striker damage together in order to make a single, powerful, opportune attack. 3) If he misses with the attack, his bonus striker damage dice still hurt the target (though for a little less damage then they usually would).
None of these benefits are to be laughed at. The rogue, however, has better DPS over time (as long as he can keep combat advantage against a foe).
I'm fine with it, after all his Ki Focus class feature, Shade Form and Shadow Step powers and the controlleresque secondary role I'm sniffing, seem to balance out pretty well the lower DPS.
I'm filing that with the idea that curry is "ethnic food" while sphaghetti is "regular."
I'm not sure your analagy is apt. It's more like: curry chicken is "ethnic food" while chicken is "regular". Or perhaps curry noodles are "ethnic food" while plain noodles are not. Though even noodles tend to be rather ethnic. Spaghetti is clearly tied to a particular ethnicity and is therefor ethnic. :|
The issue is that we are speaking English. Words like "Monk" and "Assassin" mean something that don't really tie in with an ethnicity while "Ninja" and "Samurai" mean "Asian assassin" and "Asian knight" or perhaps (in many cultural examples), "AWESOME assassin" and "AWESOME knight".
Are there any other salient differences between the classes?
I converted a level 1 rogue to assasin and found out she picked up diplomacy and lost bluff. She lost +2 Ref and picked up +1 Fort and Will. She dropped her dagger and picked up a bastard sword (katana...for style, of course). Then there's shadow step, shade form, and night stalker vs. rogue weapon talent, first strike, and artful dodger. I have enough of a build to play her tonight, except for a human at-will.
Would toughness make up for most of the "missing" striker hit points?
What other feats would be good for the build, beyond those unique to the assassin? HBO and HBM are right out, because of the Str requirements.
I can see how the rogue has higher DPS if he can keep combat advantage; conversely, I like how the assassin doesn't have to muck with CA.
Are there any other salient differences between the classes?
I converted a level 1 rogue to assasin and found out she picked up diplomacy and lost bluff. She lost +2 Ref and picked up +1 Fort and Will. She dropped her dagger and picked up a bastard sword (katana...for style, of course). Then there's shadow step, shade form, and night stalker vs. rogue weapon talent, first strike, and artful dodger. I have enough of a build to play her tonight, except for a human at-will.
Would toughness make up for most of the "missing" striker hit points?
What other feats would be good for the build, beyond those unique to the assassin? HBO and HBM are right out, because of the Str requirements.
Yes, Toughness makes up most of the difference, especially at the first levels of each tier.
I'd suggest Expertise instead of Focus with Heavy Blades, to add accuracy. Also anything that boosts defense or that relies on Cha. HBO seems way out of the Assassin's business to be something to worry about.
My reasoning wasn't inaccurate. If you wait till your 4th round to hit, your striker damage per round is still only +1d6. You just wait to stack it together for a single more powerful attack. And, I already stated that that was possible, and was one of the assassins benefits. It doesn't, however, grant more damage per round.
All your math proved was one thing: my statement was correct, and for the exact reasons I stated.
No, it wasn't. The "+1d6 per round" is very misleading, because its not actually correct. It ignores the miss damage, which is a significant and meaningful part of the equation.
The true comparison isn't +1d6 per round for the assassin to +2d6 per round for the rogue. Its
Assassin: +Xd6, where X is the number of rounds, on a hit, and +(X-1)d6 on a miss, versus
Rogue: +2d6 per round on a hit, +0 on a miss
That +0 the rogue gets on a miss is critical to understanding how the assassin's shroud works. Its the whole reason its best to wait as long as possible to use the shroud, and the whole reason that the shroud doesn't suck in comparison.
I'm not sure your analagy is apt. It's more like: curry chicken is "ethnic food" while chicken is "regular". Or perhaps curry noodles are "ethnic food" while plain noodles are not. Though even noodles tend to be rather ethnic. Spaghetti is clearly tied to a particular ethnicity and is therefor ethnic. :|
The issue is that we are speaking English. Words like "Monk" and "Assassin" mean something that don't really tie in with an ethnicity while "Ninja" and "Samurai" mean "Asian assassin" and "Asian knight" or perhaps (in many cultural examples), "AWESOME assassin" and "AWESOME knight".
Now is probably not a good time for a lecture on the concept of "privilege," and how it relates to the tendency to treat one's own cultural baggage as a sort of default, while treating other culture's concepts as alien variants upon one's own way of viewing the world. Its apt to the discussion, but this is an internet forum for an RPG and geeks tend to react to the concept about the same way vampires react to a piece of the true cross.
We're only seeing part of one build also. Hoping the second build is a bit more of a heavy hitter.
I hope not. The build we've got is plenty of a heavy hitter as it is. A heavier hitter would probably be a little unbalanced.
Actually, since the assassin's damage still kicks in on a miss, its better than it seems. If you wait until the fourth round to use your shroud, you will get +4d6 damage, or +3d6 on a miss. This brings you closer to the 2d6 per round mark.
So your reasoning isn't accurate, but you're still right. 2d6 per round adds up to more than 4d6, 3d6 on a miss, once every fourth round. The more accurate your attacks, the further the rogue pulls ahead. The assassin gets some mileage out of being able to use heavy blades, though, which should help even things out.
I guess I could run some numbers, that's usually what I do around here...
Human Brutal Rogue, using a rapier, with Nimble Blade feat, and with Backstabber (because we know you'll have these) versus Human Night Stalker Assassin, with a Fullblade, Brutal Shroud, and Weapon Focus.
Assuming each has combat advantage at all times (they're both highly mobile, this is quite plausible), that the Assassin get his Night Stalker advantage at all times (or equivalent damage from the at will that is Night Stalker in reverse), that they have 18 dex and 14 secondary stat, that they each have a +1 weapon, and that they're at level 4 attacking an enemy with an AC of 17 and a reflex of 15.
The rogue will use Piercing Strike to attack reflex. His attack bonus with flanking is +12 v ref, and he hits for 1d8+5 +2d8+2. On a critical hit he deals 31+1d6 damage. He will do this for four rounds to make the math work out on the comparison.
The assassin will use that at will who's name I forget that is Night Stalker in reverse. He will be attacking for +11 v ac, and hitting for 1d12+8. On a critical hit he will deal 20+1d12+6. On the fourth round he will deal additional bonus damage of 4d6 brutal 1 on a hit, 3d6 brutal 1 on a miss, and 24 on a critical hit.
The rogue's expected damage per round is .85*20.5 + .05*34.5 = 19.15. He will do that for four rounds, totalling 76.6 expected damage.
The assassin's expected damage per regular attack is .70*14.5 + .05*32.5 = 11.775. He will do that four times, for a total of 47.1. Then he will use his assassin's shroud, for an additional expected damage of .7*16 + .25*12 + .05*24 = 15.4. That gives him a four round total of 62.5.
Of course each character has advantages and disadvantages other than this math. The rogue has more hit points. The assassin gets more benefit from higher [W] attacks with his fullblade than the rogue gets with his rapier. The assassin is more mobile. The rogue can lose his damage if he can't get combat advantage. The assassin can lose his bonus damage, or waste it, if he times things wrong. You get the idea. But in pure damage abstraction, the rogue generally pulls ahead.
My reasoning wasn't inaccurate. If you wait till your 4th round to hit, your striker damage per round is still only +1d6. You just wait to stack it together for a single more powerful attack. And, I already stated that that was possible, and was one of the assassins benefits. It doesn't, however, grant more damage per round.
All your math proved was one thing: my statement was correct, and for the exact reasons I stated.
Well, the rogue gets 2d6, but only because he has to attack with light blades. It's either a 1d4 + 2d6 or 3d6. Even with a superior weapon, it only goes up to 1d8 + 2d6. Whereas, the Assassin, like most of the other strikers, still retains a large portion of damage from his weapon. And he seems to get some heavy attacks, as evidenced by the 3[W] encounter powers (Complete with other nifty effects!) that we can see in the preview for levels 3 and 7. The Night Stalker class feature is a very interesting option that provides relatively easy access to extra damage (similar to extra damage with Sly flourish, but applying to all your attacks), and the second at-will we can see is clearly very useful for party nova, or maintaining a damage boost if the enemy is surrounded with friends.
The assassin doesn't seem to replace the rogue in any way, shape, or form. But he is a little squishier. I wouldn't be surprised if he did a little bit more damage over all.
ALSO: To those clamoring for a ninja class, what could it do that the Assassin and Rogue couldn't already? Just because there will probably be another shadow striker doesn't mean it'll be a ninja, or a shadow dancer. It doesn't mean it'll even be a melee class (It might be more akin to the sorcerer, or the warlock). I can see them doing that. I cannot see them making a ninja with the assassin and rogue, much less a ninja and a shadowdancer.
We're only seeing part of one build also. Hoping the second build is a bit more of a heavy hitter.
I'm betting it'll be about the same level of heavy-hitter. Maybe a little more survivable, but only as much as a wrathful invoker is to a preserving invoker. I'm thinking the different builds will probably be very similar to the Avenger's.
I know it ! The Ninja will be a Shadow Controller akin to him :
Oh-my-god-no.
Besides, that would only nominally be a ninja, in the same sense that any naruto character really isn't a ninja (I'M GOING TO YELL REALLY LOUDLY AND THEN PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE! GO NINJAS!). It would be more akin to a shadowcaster.
Oh-my-god-no.
Besides, that would only nominally be a ninja, in the same sense that any naruto character really isn't a ninja (I'M GOING TO YELL REALLY LOUDLY AND THEN PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE! GO NINJAS!). It would be more akin to a shadowcaster.
I was just making fun you know ?
I was just making fun you know ?
Yeah, I know. But there are people out there with that actual opinion...
I'm actually kind of hoping that one of the assassin builds is VERY shadowcaster like. As in, I am kind of hoping its possible to play an assassin without picking a single weapon based power, and having all of your attacks be implement based attacks that use shadows to kill your foes.
I'm thinking it won't go much farther than the Avenger did with divine magic or the Swordmage with Arcane magic. Those are the best two classes to describe the Assassin with, in terms of flavor and relation to power source. You'll get the occasional ranged attack or encounter, and can maybe build a half-and-half character, but the focus, in the end, will probably be on melee.
I'm hoping they save the Shadowcaster-like for the Shadowcaster.
Never found ranged classes fun.Considering that I also want the option to build a full weapons based assassin, I don't think I'm asking much. I'm only asking for an alternate build.
As for whether I get what I want or not, I guess we will see in a couple of weeks.
Bel
Whether thaX likes it or not, the ninja he's looking for is the Assassin class. The DDI Exclusive classes aren't going to be entirely superfluous just because they're DDI Exclusive
I would be more inclined to not be bothered by this assumption if the class that would be taking the place of the Ninja wasn't named Assassin. The very name brings forth visions of paid contracts, working alone and various other unheroic habits. It is as bad a name for a class as "Warrior," "Mercenary" and "Pool Boy." The main reason it is in the DDi is so whomever wants this class can subscribe to get it. It became apparent that a dissatisfaction about the PP's available had been enough to come up with this solution.
The Ninja is not dead, either by the Ninja name or another. The main reason the Assassin is in the DDi is because Wizards do not want it in the Core game. It is, instead, a perk for those that are subscribed to the service.
Yeah, I know. But there are people out there with that actual opinion...
I'm thinking it won't go much farther than the Avenger did with divine magic or the Swordmage with Arcane magic. Those are the best two classes to describe the Assassin with, in terms of flavor and relation to power source. You'll get the occasional ranged attack or encounter, and can maybe build a half-and-half character, but the focus, in the end, will probably be on melee.
I'm hoping they save the Shadowcaster-like for the Shadowcaster.
I dunno - I haven't looked into it much with the Avenger, but the Swordmage is fully capable of going with nothing but implement powers. It might even be preferable for some characters, like a gnome, that can't use something like a bastard sword and still get their 1-hander AC bonus.
Anyways, while I'm hoping the PH4 (probably) shadow striker is a caster type, I do hope and expect the Assassin will be fully capable of operating with nothing but Implement powers. I'm expecting though that most will be short range, like the 5 square powers in the preview, or the Monk melee Implement powers.
I would be more inclined to not be bothered by this assumption if the class that would be taking the place of the Ninja wasn't named Assassin. The very name brings forth visions of paid contracts, working alone and various other unheroic habits. It is as bad a name for a class as "Warrior," "Mercenary" and "Pool Boy." The main reason it is in the DDi is so whomever wants this class can subscribe to get it. It became apparent that a dissatisfaction about the PP's available had been enough to come up with this solution.
The Avenger is easily as unheroic as you described. Assassins don't have to kill for money; the original real-life assassins would be described as good-aligned (though not lawful good), who worked for an ideal of maintaining control of their people's own land instead of it being taken by crusaders. Frequently, they didn't even kill their targets. Leaving a dagger and a note on his pillow in his sleep was enough to make him leave.
That's of course not even mentioning the fact that a 4e Assassin (upper-case; the class name) does not have to be an assassin (that's lower case; the proffession) just as much as a cleric doesn't have to work in a temple, a warlord doesn't have to lead entire armies in a war, and a bard doesn't have to get all his cash by reciting poems of old stories loosely tied to the music of his lute.
The Ninja is not dead, either by the Ninja name or another. The main reason the Assassin is in the DDi is because Wizards do not want it in the Core game. It is, instead, a perk for those that are subscribed to the service.
The assassin is as much core as any other class. But instead of the price barrier being that of a PHB, it is the DDI account. You don't seem to understand this. I will say it one more time.
The Assassin is a core class. Instead of having to buy a book, you get DDI. It is no different.
And also, once again: Ninjas are japanese assassins. All the connotations you are associating with Assassins are equally prevalent for the ninja. If you think that the Ninja can easily be more than what you're describing, then so can the Assassin.
And finally, what could a Ninja or Shadowdancer class really do that would adequately separate it from both the rogue and the Assassin? If you can't answer this (and no one else so far can), there's a big problem with your argument.
And please don't just respond to only 1 of my points. There are many of them, and every last one refutes your argument entirely.
And to others:
The issue is that we are speaking English. Words like "Monk" and "Assassin" mean something that don't really tie in with an ethnicity while "Ninja" and "Samurai" mean "Asian assassin" and "Asian knight" or perhaps (in many cultural examples), "AWESOME assassin" and "AWESOME knight".
This is exactly my point, but phrased much more simply. It is even more apt for Shugenja and Wu Jen. Thank You DrNick.
I would be more inclined to not be bothered by this assumption if the class that would be taking the place of the Ninja wasn't named Assassin. The very name brings forth visions of paid contracts, working alone and various other unheroic habits.
Only to you, who refuses to acknowledge that contract killers are the minority.
It is as bad a name for a class as "Warrior," "Mercenary" and "Pool Boy."
Or Fighter, amirite?
The main reason it is in the DDi is so whomever wants this class can subscribe to get it. It became apparent that a dissatisfaction about the PP's available had been enough to come up with this solution.
As opposed to a book that whoever wants this class can buy the book?
The Ninja is not dead, either by the Ninja name or another.
You're right, the Ninja is not dead. Because the Assassin and the Rogue are the Ninja classes.
The main reason the Assassin is in the DDi is because Wizards do not want it in the Core game. It is, instead, a perk for those that are subscribed to the service.
Since DDi is pure 100% core, that is flat out wrong. Well, it being a perk is right. But Wizard does want it in Core. They have made it core. It is core. Deal with it.
I would be more inclined to not be bothered by this assumption if the class that would be taking the place of the Ninja wasn't named Assassin. The very name brings forth visions of paid contracts, working alone and various other unheroic habits. It is as bad a name for a class as "Warrior," "Mercenary" and "Pool Boy." The main reason it is in the DDi is so whomever wants this class can subscribe to get it. It became apparent that a dissatisfaction about the PP's available had been enough to come up with this solution.
The Ninja is not dead, either by the Ninja name or another. The main reason the Assassin is in the DDi is because Wizards do not want it in the Core game. It is, instead, a perk for those that are subscribed to the service.
1) DDi is considered core.
2) You can keep telling yourself that the Ninja is not assassin all you like, it won't make it any more true until you can come up with a compelling argument (you have yet to do so).
3) You can keep telling yourself that they will release a Ninja class all you like, but, once again, unless you can explain what a Ninja should be able to mechanically do that a rogue or assassin cannot already do, your expectation is unreasonable.
This is driving me nuts now lol. Want to make a changeling assassin so bad. I demand it now!
I feel exactly the same. I swear, my Dwarf Invoker just got a lot more suicidal *COUGH* I mean brave.
And also, once again: Ninjas are japanese assassins. All the connotations you are associating with Assassins are equally prevalent for the ninja. If you think that the Ninja can easily be more than what you're describing, then so can the Assassin.
Pssh. The Assassin is a Ninja with a mongrelized middle eastern name.
I basically agree with you on everything else. Obviously this is the ninja class.
I just find it kind of creepy that WotC felt they needed to create a class that teleports from shadow to shadow while cutting people down with dexterity based attacks and a two handed blade (or unarmed melee if he so chooses), illustrate the class as a guy in a classic anime shinobi hood, japanese swordsman robes, and wielding a katana, and then name the class "assassin" because people get themselves all sweaty and upset over the word "ninja." Its obvious that this class is a ninja.
Pssh. The Assassin is a Ninja with a mongrelized middle eastern name.
I basically agree with you on everything else. Obviously this is the ninja class.
I just find it kind of creepy that WotC felt they needed to create a class that teleports from shadow to shadow while cutting people down with dexterity based attacks and a two handed blade (or unarmed melee if he so chooses), illustrate the class as a guy in a classic anime shinobi hood, japanese swordsman robes, and wielding a katana, and then name the class "assassin" because people get themselves all sweaty and upset over the word "ninja." Its obvious that this class is a ninja.
I suppose. But as stated earlier, DnD is printed in english. It strives for non-cultural class names. If it were printed in Japanese, the class would be called Shinobi (Ninja). But it's not. In english, we describe the ninja as an assassin, as well as any other culturally-specifically-named assassins. So the name Assassin comes as a default, and Ninja comes as Eastern.
That's just the way it is. If it was in another language, it might be different. There's nothing wrong with that.
I'm not going to argue over etymology with you; I know Assassin originates from the Hashshashin. But it's become a perfectly valid english word without those connotations directly associated with it.
It comes down to this: When people hear "assassin", they think "shadowy killer". When people hear "Ninja", they think "Asian shadowy killer".
And of course it bears more resemblance to the older Ninja class than the older Assassin, because the older Assassin was basically a rogue with a shield and a nifty kill chance in 1e, was non-existant in 2e, and was an automatically evil rogue with some limited wizard spells and better poison use in 3e. It had nothing to do with shadow magic, really.
But now it's the Assassin.
EDIT: And also, for the point you were contending, I wasn't talking about character classes. I was talking about actual real-life ninjas.
Pssh. The Assassin is a Ninja with a mongrelized middle eastern name.
I basically agree with you on everything else. Obviously this is the ninja class.
I just find it kind of creepy that WotC felt they needed to create a class that teleports from shadow to shadow while cutting people down with dexterity based attacks and a two handed blade (or unarmed melee if he so chooses), illustrate the class as a guy in a classic anime shinobi hood, japanese swordsman robes, and wielding a katana, and then name the class "assassin" because people get themselves all sweaty and upset over the word "ninja." Its obvious that this class is a ninja.
It certainly does seem like a ninja, I admit.
It certainly does seem like a ninja, I admit.
I'd say that it's more old-school ninja than it is old-school assassin, but only because old-school assassin is hardly more than a slightly different rogue.
To be honest, the real demarcation which makes this class a "ninja" as opposed to an assassin is its use of swords. There is very little real difference between a shadow magic using assassin, and a shadow magic using ninja. One of the key differences in imagery between the two characters is that one uses a sword, and the other a dagger. The use of a sword marks this class as not "assassin," and all the cultural implications that caries with it, but ninja. This class is really just a ninja by another name.
Now, I'm not complaining. I can still build a dagger using assassin with this class. And I can build a sword using ninja with this class! But lets be honest, this class is a not an assassin as it is usually understood in regards to the western implications of the word. Not unless you intentionally try to build this class in that manner, and probably multiclass rogue in the process. This class is a ninja. That is what it is...
Its not an old school ninja. At least, not an old school 1980's style ninja like I remember from movies like American Ninja. Its more like what the ninja were thought to be in original Japanese mythology, or how the assassin was presented in recent mass multiplayer games like Shadowbane.
To be honest, the real demarcation which makes this class a "ninja" as opposed to an assassin is its use of swords. There is very little real difference between a shadow magic using assassin, and a shadow magic using ninja. One of the key differences in imagery between the two characters is that one uses a sword, and the other a dagger. The use of a sword marks this class as not "assassin," and all the cultural implications that caries with it, but ninja. This class is really just a ninja by another name.
Now, I'm not complaining. I can still build a dagger using assassin with this class. And I can build a sword using ninja with this class! But lets be honest, this class is a not an assassin as it is usually understood in regards to the western implications of the word. Not unless you intentionally try to build this class in that manner, and probably multiclass rogue in the process. This class is a ninja. That is what it is...
That is what I meant by Old-school ninja, yes.
That said, I agree that it is, in many ways, more like a ninja than a traditional assassin. But a traditional assassin is a rogue, really. And naming this class Assassin was a better choice than naming it Ninja.
Besides, actual Ninjas used daggers and light blades just as often as any other culture's assassin. They're very useful weapons for assassination because they can be concealed. The focus on heavy, long blades is a result of... well...
[the] old school 1980's style ninja[s] like I remember from movies like American Ninja.
That is what I meant by Old-school ninja, yes.
That said, I agree that it is, in many ways, more like a ninja than a traditional assassin. But a traditional assassin is a rogue, really. And naming this class Assassin was a better choice than naming it Ninja.
I don't know. I don't really see any reason why the name assassin fits this class better than ninja. If they give it some strong reasons to go with light blades over heavy swords, then yea, assassin makes sense. If not, ninja probably would have been a better fit.
That being said, I will be happy either way.
It seems that, if the various posters here are right, I will have to do without the Shadow Dancer like class. It seems Wizards is holding it ransom.
The more I hear and read about this class, the more disappointed I become. It seems the shadow to shadow teleport (Shadowjumping) is part of the Shadow Dancer power set that the Assassin has been given. This gives me pause. I was hoping the Ninja would get this instead.
It seems that, if the various posters here are right, I will have to do without the Shadow Dancer like class. It seems Wizards is holding it ransom.
Wizards isn't holding it ransom any more than any class is ever held ransom. If you want the product, pay for it. If you are not willing to pay for it, stop complaining that you are not getting the product. If you don't buy the PHB 2, you don't get the druid. If you don't buy DDi, you don't get the assassin.
That being said, the class does seem like an amalgom of the shadow dancer and ninja abilities of earlier editions. It seems that that is what the assassin of 4e is, a shadow-dancer ninja hybrid. So, if that is what you want in your games, looks like you will have to purchase DDi.
I don't know. I don't really see any reason why the name assassin fits this class better than ninja. If they give it some strong reasons to go with light blades over heavy swords, then yea, assassin makes sense. If not, ninja probably would have been a better fit.
That being said, I will be happy either way.
Well, as I said, real ninjas didn't use swords. They used daggers and shuriken, unarmed attacks, hidden spiked gloves, spiked rings, smoke bombs, poisons, blinding powder, and many weapons that were originally, and most commonly, used as farming tools. They did not use almost any of the weapons that the Assassin class would do best using. Why use a weapon that's clearly a weapon when you can use one that's hidden/looks like a farming tool?
But I can see how the common perception of the ninja is for it to use big-ass katanas, even if it's entirely inaccurate.
And as I said earlier, Assassin makes people think of "shadowy killer". Ninja makes people think of "Asian shadowy killer".
The more I hear and read about this class, the more disappointed I become. It seems the shadow to shadow teleport (Shadowjumping) is part of the Shadow Dancer power set that the Assassin has been given. This gives me pause. I was hoping the Ninja would get this instead.
It seems that, if the various posters here are right, I will have to do without the Shadow Dancer like class. It seems Wizards is holding it ransom.
Did you actually look at the pictures? Let me post them for you again:
Assassin Preview
Now that you might be beginning to understand that the Shadowdancer and the Ninja have been absorbed into the Assassin (or rather, the Ninja and Shadowdancer were smushed together, and then tweaked to be called an Assassin [Which is a good thing, I'll remind you]), maybe you'll see how they're clearly not going to be updated anywhere else.
And as I, Cyber-Dave, and so many other have told you, DDI exclusives are no different from any other product. The Barbarian and the Druid are being held for ransom in the PHB2. The Swordmage is being held for ransom in the FRPG. Sand, Fang, and Deep Dragons are being held for ransom in the Draconomicon. Demogorgon is being held for ransom in the MM2.
It's just another product, whether it's online or printed in a book.
Wow.
So the want for a cut throat murderer is so popular that the Ninja fades into obscurity?
The Assassin DDi exclusive class is not the Ninja's replacement. I still hold out hope that the Shadow Dancer power set is saved for the Ninja.
BTW, if your gonna use a pic of the Blue Beetle, use the current guy, not the dead one.
Ninjas are no more heroic than assassins though.
The reason he used the current BB is that he is the one who originated the "Bwahahaha" laugh thingy back in the late 80's in Justice League.
So if you are going to make more comments hopefully they start making sense. :D
If you are not willing to pay for it, stop complaining that you are not getting the product. If you don't buy the PHB 2, you don't get the druid. If you don't buy DDi, you don't get the assassin.
hey, I think it is unfair I have to buy PHB3 to get the psion...I want the psion but WotC is holding it hosstige...
OK...since when is that able to be seen as a sane thought process...you have to buy the product that has the class...if I didn't buy complete warrior I would not have the hex blade...if I didn't buy the complete Arcane I would not have the warlock...
Also, I don't really agree that "assassin" is a "shadow killer" and "ninja" is an "Asian shadow killer." If we are going to start defining things by ethnicity, I would argue that "assassin" means "Middle Eastern or European shadow killer," and ninja means "eastern shadow killer." I really don't see why a European or Middle Eastern name is any better than an Asian name for a D&D class.
But really, I don't think of ethnicity when I think of assassin or ninja one way or another. The difference for me is this: assassin is a shadow killer with a dagger. Ninja is a shadow killer with a sword. Based on the fact that the assassin class seems to use a sword, ninja just seems to fit a little better to me.
Again, I am not really strongly invested either way. I could care less. I will be happy with the class anyway. And I do understand from where your argument is coming from Rose... I just don't fully agree with it.
I don't really think of a ninja as wielding a katana. More like a ninja-to. And, while I don't know that they are any more historically accurate than the katana, according to Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi they were in fact used. As the Grandmaster of the Bujinkan Organization, I assume he knows at least some of what he is talking about.
Also, I don't really agree that "assassin" is a "shadow killer" and "ninja" is an "Asian shadow killer." If we are going to start defining things by ethnicity, I would argue that "assassin" means middle eastern or European shadow killer, and ninja means "eastern shadow killer." I really don't see why a European name is any better than an Asian name for a D&D class.
But really, I don't think of ethnicity when I think of assassin or ninja one way or another. The difference for me is this: assassin is a shadow killer with a dagger. Ninja is a shadow killer with a sword. Based on the fact that the assassin class seems to use a sword, ninja just seems to fit a little better to me.
Again, I am not really strongly invested either way. I could care less. I will be happy with the class anyway. And I do understand from where your argument is coming from... I just don't agree with it.
It's good to hear that you don't share that particular word-bias that many people do. But that doesn't mean it's not common. Assassin has been part of english vocabulary for so long that it isn't automatically associated with it's etymological roots (which yes, is middle-eastern). Ninja does not have that luxury.
I'll put it this way: The first time, as a child, you were exposed to the word Assassin, it probably was not to describe the Hashshashins of the Middle East. But I'll bet your first exposure to the word Ninja was directly linked to the Orient, if not specifically Japan.
I think a lot of people are misreading what the shrouds do. They aren't extra damage; they replace the damage the attack does, and get no bonuses.
where did you get that from?I think a lot of people are misreading what the shrouds do. They aren't extra damage; they replace the damage the attack does, and get no bonuses.
Okay, so the preview left out a single word. It's not unexpected.
In any case, just add in the word "extra". It's pretty clear that's what they intended, anyways.
I think a lot of people are misreading what the shrouds do. They aren't extra damage; they replace the damage the attack does, and get no bonuses.
While it states it does not get bonus damage and it scales with paragon/epic tier (to 4d6+6 at epic), I am not sure this is completely right. We'd need to see the class feature description to make more sense out of this, but it looks like this isn't really that powerful (4d6 damage to one target without mods at heroic is pretty meh actually).
I suspect that it adds 1d6 damage per shroud, but if it is simply replacing the damage that makes it utterly useless beyond heroic tier.
(to 4d6+6 at epic)
You mean 4d6 + 24. You replace 1d6 everywhere in that power with 1d6 + 3 at level 11, and 1d6 + 6 at level 21. Which means it deals 1d6 + 6 for every shroud. Hence, with 4 shrouds, 4d6 + 24.
It seems that, if the various posters here are right, I will have to do without the Shadow Dancer like class. It seems Wizards is holding it ransom.
ThaX, I could totally see you doing this.
ThaX, I could totally see you doing this.
Except that he seems to be perfectly okay with price barriers, so long as they're printed. As soon as they go on the internet though, EVERYTHING IS NOT OKAY.
Except that he seems to be perfectly okay with price barriers, so long as they're printed. As soon as they go on the internet though, EVERYTHING IS NOT OKAY.
I was talking about the 'crazy' part, though.
You mean 4d6 + 24. You replace 1d6 everywhere in that power with 1d6 + 3 at level 11, and 1d6 + 6 at level 21. Which means it deals 1d6 + 6 for every shroud. Hence, with 4 shrouds, 4d6 + 24.
Ah yes.
That is still pretty poor damage at epic tier.
Ah yes.
That is still pretty poor damage at epic tier.
It's slightly less than 3d6 on average, by 1 point of damage. I don't think that qualifies as "pretty poor", considering 3d6 is what rangers and warlocks get. Not to mention Assassins also have their guild training class feature, which at least in the case of the Charisma build presents a pretty hefty damage bonus that's fairly easy to get and can function on any targets, regardless of whether or not they're the shroud target. In fact, it doesn't have to be on your turn, or with an Assassin power, or even once per round or per turn. It's all damage rolls (except for Shroud, obviously). That includes many damaging item powers, and leaves great opportunities for multiple attack powers or action points. I'm hoping the CON build has a similar damage bonus but used in a different way.
The Brutal Assassin feat seems to be intended to replicate Lethal Hunter or Backstabber, but in a slightly different way. It doesn't do this nearly as well as either of those feats do, but I can see the parallel.
Killer's Insight replicates the "another use on an action point" feats (Slayer's action, etc.), but remains more useful than those feats by being used 1/encounter, as opposed to the usual 1/two encounters of an action point.
Overall, their damage seems perfectly comparable with that of a Rogue, or a Barbarian, or a Sorcerer, etc (especially better than a warlock's). Obviously, they don't have twin strike, so they might be slightly weaker than the ranger, but they still get slightly more out of Multiple weapon powers than a twin-blade ranger anyways, and there's guild training to consider.
I see no issues with their damage.
It's slightly less than 3d6 on average, by 1 point of damage. I don't think that qualifies as "pretty poor".
Yes it does. Considering you aren't getting weapon and enhancement bonuses, the important things by epic that deal damage you're only doing slightly better than a defender hitting the target at-will. By epic tier in one of my games the fighter was doing 2d10+27 damage at-will. This isn't even optimized with say a bloodclaw weapon or anything else and without the conditional modifiers that could be put on it (like Punisher of the Gods or action points).
That's an average of 38 damage. Bear in mind this is NOT an optimized fighter by any means.
The assassin would be doing 38 damage average, maybe a bit more with some feats hopefully (like brutal shroud). But that's terrible for a striker.
You're saying a striker shouldn't even outdamage the parties defender by epic tier (and only after he applies his shroud after 2-3 rounds to get all 4 on)?
Because I think you're missing the whole point of what a striker is supposed to do.
Edit: I just refuse to believe this is supposed to be stand alone damage. As stand alone damage it's awful, with a competent build you could easily outdamage your own class feature at-will making it useless.
It's poor damage if you read it the way it's written. 4d6+24 damage that replaces your actual damage is 38 damage on a hit, 9.5 damage less on a miss. Not so hot, but about on par with at-wills. Same at heroic.
Exactly, which is why it must be bonus damage. I refuse to believe it could be this poorly designed.
Yes it does. Considering you aren't getting weapon and enhancement bonuses, the important things by epic that deal damage you're only doing slightly better than a defender hitting the target at-will. By epic tier in one of my games the fighter was doing 2d10+27 damage at-will. This isn't even optimized with say a bloodclaw weapon or anything else and without the conditional modifiers that could be put on it (like Punisher of the Gods or action points).
That's an average of 38 damage. Bear in mind this is NOT an optimized fighter by any means.
The assassin would be doing 38 damage average, maybe a bit more with some feats hopefully (like brutal shroud). But that's terrible for a striker.
You're saying a striker shouldn't even outdamage the parties defender by epic tier (and only after he applies his shroud after 2-3 rounds to get all 4 on)?
Because I think you're missing the whole point of what a striker is supposed to do.
Edit: I just refuse to believe this is supposed to be stand alone damage. As stand alone damage it's awful, with a competent build you could easily outdamage your own class feature at-will making it useless.
You can't make comparisons like that based on pure conjecture and opinion. Before I can make any assumptions at all about that statement, I'd like to know how your fighter gets a static bonus of +27.
Why wouldn't you get your weapon or enhancement bonuses? The damage is extra damage. You still add everything else together.
Of course it's not stand-alone damage. I agree that that would be thoroughly stupid. But that's not what it is.
\ fighter was doing 2d10+27 damage at-will. This isn't even optimized with say a bloodclaw weapon or anything else and without the conditional modifiers that could be put on it (like Punisher of the Gods or action points).
ok.. +6 weaPON...and +8 str...and +6 armbands of power...where are the other 7 comeing from???
Edit: I just refuse to believe this is supposed to be stand alone damage. As stand alone damage it's awful, with a competent build you could easily outdamage your own class feature at-will making it useless.
can somone show me where it says to replance the damage I don't see it...I may be wrong...
You can't make comparisons like that based on pure conjecture and opinion. Before I can make any assumptions at all about that statement, I'd like to know how your fighter gets a static bonus of +27.
Easy and again, this isn't even optimized so I am sure the charOP people will make fun of it but anyway:
+6 strength
+6 Enhancement
+6 Armbands of Power
+6 Dirty Fighting (Wisdom Bonus)
+1 bonus TWF
+1 bonus tempest technique
+1 bonus tempest technique offhand (which does stack).
Any further questions? This incidentally is not adding in the conditional bonuses like marked scourge and bloodclaw.
Why wouldn't you get your weapon or enhancement bonuses? The damage is extra damage. You still add everything else together.
Why don't you read the power? It explicitly states it does not get bonus damage. That's actually pure black and white on the power itself (which is posted at the blog with the assassin preview above).
Again, go and read the power. It states it does not get any bonus damage and merely does 4d6, 4d6+3 and 4d6+6. That's how it scales, but it doesn't get anything else as the power says.
Of course it's not stand-alone damage. I agree that that would be thoroughly stupid. But that's not what it is.
It doesn't actually say it is extra damage. That gives me a bit of pause and the wording really heavily implies that it replaces the damage of the attack. Why would extra damage on an attack roll need a disclaimer saying it couldn't be modified by extra damage effects?
I really want to see the explanation on this now, because it doesn't make sense.
ok.. +6 weaPON...and +8 str...and +6 armbands of power...where are the other 7 comeing from???
There's another +3 from Weapon Focus.
There's another +3 from Weapon Focus.
He doesn't have that. But if he did the static bonus would be +30.
Just so you know (and yes, I realize that it's hilarious having TWF for +1 damage bonus and not having weapon focus - it isn't optimized as I said so it could do better ;)).
There's another +3 from Weapon Focus.
Something like Kensai, Pit Fighter or Son of Mercy could make up the difference.
Why don't you read the power? It explicitly states it does not get bonus damage. That's actually pure black and white on the power itself (which is posted at the blog with the assassin preview above).
Again, go and read the power. It states it does not get any bonus damage and merely does 4d6, 4d6+3 and 4d6+6. That's how it scales, but it doesn't get anything else as the power says.
It doesn't actually say it is extra damage. That gives me a bit of pause and the wording really heavily implies that it replaces the damage of the attack. Why would extra damage on an attack roll need a disclaimer saying it couldn't be modified by extra damage effects?
I really want to see the explanation on this now, because it doesn't make sense.
Okay, it says it does not get a bonus to damage so that when it misses, it only does that much. Look at Night Stalker. Imagine adding that whenever you missed. That's what that clause is for. It's so that the miss is ONLY what the extra damage would be, -1 shroud. It's easy to see how it'd be far too strong otherwise. Because then almost all those things you listed for your fighter (Which all can apply to Assassins, BTW) would be applied on a miss (most of them, at least...), and that is far more powerful than they intended.
The intent was clear. When you build it up each turn and don't invoke it, you are effectively guaranteeing that 1d6, regardless of hit or miss. That's why it beneficial to build it up. But they didn't want it to be guaranteeing a 1d6 and all that other crap; that would be too strong.
And if they intended it to replace the damage, it would say "instead", or "replace", or anything else that would be expected for such a strange power (there would be nothing else at all like that so far). It's far more likely that it functions EXACTLY LIKE ALL THE OTHER STRIKER FEATURES instead of some crazy ****** thing no one will ever use. Why would they design that? That wouldn't even be difficult to see how much it sucks.
It's a preview of DDI content. DDI content has a history of typos and bad wording. If you can't see what they intended, which is obvious even from the flavor text, I feel really bad for you.
Okay, it says it does not get a bonus to damage so that when it misses, it only does that much.
Where does it state that is only applying to a miss?
Look at Night Stalker. Imagine adding that whenever you missed. That's what that clause is for.
Where does it say that? Because it follows this section:
"The attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus 1 if the attack misses, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target."
So I'm sorry, nothing there is specific to it missing at all to be honest (I understand what the intent could be however, but that depends on the interpretation of how the power works).
Because then almost all those things you listed for your fighter (Which all can apply to Assassins, BTW)
If the assassin multiclasses into fighter sure and takes pit fighter and has a high enough wisdom.
Sure.
When you build it up each turn and don't invoke it, you are effectively guaranteeing that 1d6, regardless of hit or miss. That's why it beneficial to build it up. But they didn't want it to be guaranteeing a 1d6 and all that other crap; that would be too strong.
I would agree, but I don't see where your interpretation is supported in the text of the power.
And if they intended it to replace the damage, it would say "instead". It's far more likely that it functions EXACTLY LIKE ALL THE OTHER STRIKER FEATURES instead of some crazy ****** thing no one will ever use. Why would they design that? That wouldn't even be difficult to see how much it sucks.
I inherently agree with this, except that it does not say that on what we have to actually look at.
Further explanation is definitely required, because 4d6+24 damage is fantastic for a striker (especially as it would take 4 rounds to build up to that point), but pretty pathetic otherwise if it removes your base damage.
I am just showing how it can be interpreted either way and it can. That power is poorly worded and since seeing the Psion (which is plain awful in practice) I am a bit worried their (so far) fairly good class design may have hit a few hitches.
It's a preview of DDI content. DDI content has a history of typos and bad wording. If you can't see what they intended, I feel really bad for you.
Well you were confused how a fighter can easily get a very high damage bonus, so patronizing me probably isn't that effective to be honest :P
This means that if you have two shrouds on a minion, and miss, the minion takes no damage from the miss... and the shroud STILL kills them.
Where does it state that is only applying to a miss?
Where does it say that? Because it follows this section:
"The attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus 1 if the attack misses, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target."
So I'm sorry, nothing there is specific to it missing at all to be honest (I understand what the intent could be however, but that depends on the interpretation of how the power works)
If the assassin multiclasses into fighter sure and takes pit fighter and has a high enough wisdom.
Sure.
I would agree, but I don't see where your interpretation is supported in the text of the power.
I inherently agree with this, except that it does not say that on what we have to actually look at.
Further explanation is definitely required, because 4d6+24 damage is fantastic for a striker (especially as it would take 4 rounds to build up to that point), but pretty pathetic otherwise.
I am just showing how it can be interpreted either way and it can. That power is poorly worded.
Well you were confused how a fighter can easily get a very high damage bonus, so patronizing me probably isn't that effective to be honest :P
Okay, are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Because if that's the case, I'm just going to ignore you and continue to discuss this cool class with other people.
I'm not saying the "no extra damage" applies only to a miss. But it doesn't matter on a hit because there's no extra damage to be had when the Shroud is already extra damage. On a hit, the extra damage from enhancement/DEX/Armbands/etc. applies to the original attack. The only time that clause is neccisary is when the attack misses, because it's the only form of damage then. That clause is only important for a miss, that's what I'm saying. You can't use it to justify it replacing damage by saying it's meaningless if it's extra.
And again, it doesn't say anywhere that you "replace" or use the damage "instead" of. It's far more likely that WotC actually designed a working class feature than a useless one, especially since the working class feature functions very similarly in play to all the other striker mechanics (which is to say: extra damage).
And I'm not familiar enough with fighters to be aware of Dirty Fighting, nor was I aware that he was a Two-weapon fighter. All I was missing was a +4; I'll admit that your fighter in question is far from optimized. But we have yet to see what similar Paragon Paths can do to increase Assassin damage, so you can't compare them at that point and add in dirty fighting. Everything else you mentioned can easily be obtained by an Assassin.
Thus, there is no disparity in damage.
Assasin's shroud is not extra damage, but it is ALSO not a replacement. It is damage from a second source.
This means that if you have two shrouds on a minion, and miss, the minion takes no damage from the miss... and the shroud STILL kills them.
This is a perfectly correct explanation. Thank you anubis :D. I hadn't thought of it this way, but that makes sense.
It comes down to this: When people hear "assassin", they think "shadowy killer". When people hear "Ninja", they think "Asian shadowy killer".
When I hear the word assassin I think of characters like Agent 47 from Hitman or Altaïr from Assassin's creed, neither of which fit the archetype mystical killer infused with the power of shadow.
The argument is mostly one of semantics. The assassin seems deliver most of the mechanics I was hoping for in a ninja class and I won't let a little thing like what name WotC chose stand in the way of me making my characters (n matter how much I disagree with that choice of name)
Assasin's shroud is not extra damage, but it is ALSO not a replacement. It is damage from a second source.
This means that if you have two shrouds on a minion, and miss, the minion takes no damage from the miss... and the shroud STILL kills them.
I would laugh my butt off if that ever happened...2 rounds to autokill a minnon is weird...
Ah yes.
That is still pretty poor damage at epic tier.
No its not... its really not...
Erase
Heh. I saw what you posted here after updating my earlier post, and was about to quote you and inform you of it. But I pressed quote, and it said "Erase" on the next page.
Funny things happen when people respond so quickly in a thread, huh?
ALSO: Would you rule that the damage still benefits from a critical hit, like quarry, curse, and sneak attack do? I would, but I'd like to hear other opinions.
Assasin's shroud is not extra damage, but it is ALSO not a replacement. It is damage from a second source.
This means that if you have two shrouds on a minion, and miss, the minion takes no damage from the miss... and the shroud STILL kills them.
Minions never take damage from a missed attack, including powers that automatically do damage when you miss such as Cleave.
Minions never take damage from a missed attack, including powers that automatically do damage when you miss such as Cleave.
Actually, Cleave still kills a minion. Reaping Strike doesn't, but cleave does, because the minion isn't being missed. It's auto-damage, not a missed attack. Besides, cleave doesn't kill anything if you miss; it's based off the hit function.
Actually, Cleave still kills a minion. Reaping Strike doesn't, but cleave does, because the minion isn't being missed. It's auto-damage, not a missed attack. Besides, cleave doesn't kill anything if you miss; it's based off the hit function.
Yeah, it should have been reaping strike there and not cleave.
Okay, are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
Just noting it seems very badly worded to me.
But yes as you noted yourself, DDI material is frequently badly worded. I do not like RAI and I much prefer the RAW to actually be worded well. It makes things less open to interpretation. Hopefully the explanation of the actual class feature is better in the text as opposed to on the power card.
ALSO: Would you rule that the damage still benefits from a critical hit, like quarry, curse, and sneak attack do? I would, but I'd like to hear other opinions.
Under the "separate source" interpretation, it would not. Not even "your next hit is a crit" would apply, because you didn't have to roll to hit- you simply applied an effect of the Assasin's Shroud power.
But yes as you noted yourself, DDI material is frequently badly worded. I do not like RAI and I much prefer the RAW to actually be worded well. It makes things less open to interpretation. Hopefully the explanation of the actual class feature is better in the text as opposed to on the power card.
Okay, so long as you're aware of what they clearly actually intended. I agree that the RAW on this is a little sketchy; I hope they fix it before the release, which I'm guessing will be in a little more than a week (First tuesday of September, like the Psion and Githzerai).
The intention of the power is obvious, but the RAW could use a +3 enhancement bonus to clarity.
Okay, so long as you're aware of what they clearly actually intended. I agree that the RAW on this is a little sketchy; I hope they fix it before the release, which I'm guessing will be in a little more than a week (First tuesday of September, like the Psion and Githzerai).
The intention of the power is obvious, but the RAW could use a +3 enhancement bonus to clarity.
Unfortunately those are PHBIII previews, the Revenant Article came out on like the 14th of its month, and didn't make it into the CB for 2 months
I hope they release it in the CB the same day early in the month (my only gripe with DDI is that the book content gets in faster than the digital content), but be prepared for it not being so.
Unfortunately those are PHBIII previews, the Revenant Article came out on like the 14th of its month, and didn't make it into the CB for 2 months
I hope they release it in the CB the same day early in the month (my only gripe with DDI is that the book content gets in faster than the digital content), but be prepared for it not being so.
It better not be like the revenant. I swear to god... that would **** me off so much.
EDIT: Wow, **** is censored? Huh. Whatever.
EDIT2: Holy Crap. Playing Githzerai feat grants proficiency with fullblade and a +2/3/4 feat bonus to damage with it. I think that, coupled with the Rrathmal paragon path might make them one of the best Assassin races... heheh. Interesting.
It better not be like the revenant. I swear to god... that would **** me off so much.
Agreed. I really hope that like the monk playtest the Assassin class will get added to the CB and Compendium ahead of schedule.
I think you say "I attack him with my Daily power and unleash my 3 shrouds" than you would roll for the Shroud Damage, apply it and than use your Daily attack. It isn't overwriting your attack but it also doesn't improve your attack directly, it's just two different effects on the same round...
Same, only the other way around- shroud damage is decided by whether the triggering attack hits.
Same, only the other way around- shroud damage is decided by whether the triggering attack hits.
my quastion is what about miss effects...
if I use a daily that says miss: half damage...is that half+shroud-1?
What about scimitar dance/hammer rythm?? they both say "If you would not normaly do damage on a miss"
2. Burning Rose- it may be true that the english word for "murderer for hire" is assassin. But the english word for a guy who leaps from shadow to shadow cutting people down with martial arts is "ninja."
Again, if the power said, "The attack deals 0 damage.", would you think that the attack still deals damage? I can see why you would want to read it that way, but I can't find a RAW argument for it.
Because Assasin's Shoud is the attack, in this instance.
Did you actually look at the pictures? Let me post them for you again:
Assassin Preview
What I think is pretty interesting is how many people so far have made a mention of the fact that the included art in the preview shows what are clearly ninjas. Has anyone taken a closer look at the bottom of the two drawings? It is exactly the artwork for the Avenger's Zealous Assassin paragon path in Player's Handbook 2.
What I think is pretty interesting is how many people so far have made a mention of the fact that the included art in the preview shows what are clearly ninjas. Has anyone taken a closer look at the bottom of the two drawings? It is exactly the artwork for the Avenger's Zealous Assassin paragon path in Player's Handbook 2.
Actually, I noticed this immediately. I was wondering if anyone else would... >_>
That's why I never commented on the artwork specifically :P
Except that he seems to be perfectly okay with price barriers, so long as they're printed. As soon as they go on the internet though, EVERYTHING IS NOT OKAY.
My main beef with DDi is the monthly charge for what is a 40 dollar program. (I talk here of the Character Generator) I would end up paying up to 300 bucks or more for this dog, if I keep the service up each year throughout this edition's life span. I get that some here think the Dragon and Dungeon net articles (accumulated into "Magazines" at the end of the month) are part of this, but it is mostly previews and lack luster adventures. One Race and Class is a good start for the exclusive, and I just got the Dragon Annual at Gen Con, I will see how it reworked the material from what was online. The no new race but in PHB/Setting Player's Guides was broken (With the inclusion of the Shadar Kai and the template (I think) of the Dhampyr) but there are no new classes within the pages.
The recent price hike was unnecessary, not even corresponding with any addition service to make it worth the hike (but the promise of some new tools and PHB3 previews)
DDi is not worth my time. It isn't a persistent world to explore like the MMO's that inspired it's structure. It has, thus far, been a preview for something 6 months down the line. If I wanted to pay for advertisements, I would buy a trade magazine or Wizard.
My main beef with DDi is the monthly charge for what is a 40 dollar program. (I talk here of the Character Generator) I would end up paying up to 300 bucks or more for this dog, if I keep the service up each year throughout this edition's life span. I get that some here think the Dragon and Dungeon net articles (accumulated into "Magazines" at the end of the month) are part of this, but it is mostly previews and lack luster adventures. One Race and Class is a good start for the exclusive, and I just got the Dragon Annual at Gen Con, I will see how it reworked the material from what was online. The no new race but in PHB/Setting Player's Guides was broken (With the inclusion of the Shadar Kai and the template (I think) of the Dhampyr) but there are no new classes within the pages.
The recent price hike was unnecessary, not even corresponding with any addition service to make it worth the hike (but the promise of some new tools and PHB3 previews)
DDi is not worth my time. It isn't a persistent world to explore like the MMO's that inspired it's structure. It has, thus far, been a preview for something 6 months down the line. If I wanted to pay for advertisements, I would buy a trade magazine or Wizard.
Alright then, that's fine. That's your choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you don't get the Assassin/Ninja/Shadowdancer. That's the tradeoff you're making. You won't get things you don't pay for, and there is absolutely nothing wrong, evil, or greedy about WotC enforcing that.
Stop complaining.
ALSO: Way to only respond to one of my points. Nice reading there.
My main beef with DDi is the monthly charge for what is a 40 dollar program. (I talk here of the Character Generator) I would end up paying up to 300 bucks or more for this dog, if I keep the service up each year throughout this edition's life span. I get that some here think the Dragon and Dungeon net articles (accumulated into "Magazines" at the end of the month) are part of this, but it is mostly previews and lack luster adventures. One Race and Class is a good start for the exclusive, and I just got the Dragon Annual at Gen Con, I will see how it reworked the material from what was online. The no new race but in PHB/Setting Player's Guides was broken (With the inclusion of the Shadar Kai and the template (I think) of the Dhampyr) but there are no new classes within the pages.
The recent price hike was unnecessary, not even corresponding with any addition service to make it worth the hike (but the promise of some new tools and PHB3 previews)
DDi is not worth my time. It isn't a persistent world to explore like the MMO's that inspired it's structure. It has, thus far, been a preview for something 6 months down the line. If I wanted to pay for advertisements, I would buy a trade magazine or Wizard.
You can always subscribe for a single month to get everything up to that point.
You can always subscribe for a single month to get everything up to that point.
This, and the threat of piracy, is the reason I hope they format the Assassin article in the same way they did the Psion. Despite all the "But we can't print it out aside from actually printing out the character [So?!]" claims, it's the only really effective way of keeping people who aren't paying for the service for getting what those who are do.
My main beef with DDi is the monthly charge for what is a 40 dollar program. (I talk here of the Character Generator) I would end up paying up to 300 bucks or more for this dog, if I keep the service up each year throughout this edition's life span.
You have a very narrow view of what the DDi offers.
The last book I bought was Martial Power. But I can make Avengers any time I want; PHB2 content is in the Compendium and Character Builder. I can use any rule, power, feat, item or paragon path from Arcane Power; it's in DDi. I can do the same with anything from Divine Power, or anything from Eberron; all the content for building characters from those books is in the DDi.
If you bought those four books from Amazon and got free shipping, you're still looking at $80. Yep, you get hard copies you can read while you're on the john or whatever, and that's nice. But I can build every single character possible with DDI, for less than $80 a year. When PHB3 comes out and you have to pay $20+ for it, I get it for no extra charge. When you drop your Arcane Power in the creek and ruin it, mine can't be lost, damaged or stolen. When the uber leet Ninja class comes out as a DDi exclusive, I'll be rolling it up while you're going without.
This isn't a sales pitch. If you don't want it, don't buy it - I don't much mind either way. But don't make the mistake of thinking I'm somehow getting suckered because you're not onboard with it. I can create every character you can create and every one that you can't; I can do it cheaper than what you've invested in your hardcover books; and I can chat with strangers on the internets while I'm doing it. I rolled a gnome barbarian in between sentences, just for kicks. DDi 4TW.
As an assassin you are XXXXed.
lol
This, and the threat of piracy, is the reason I hope they format the Assassin article in the same way they did the Psion. Despite all the "But we can't print it out aside from actually printing out the character [So?!]" claims, it's the only really effective way of keeping people who aren't paying for the service for getting what those who are do.
They can just get the Character Builder too. And what WotC did with the psion makes it difficult for groups where only one member has access to use the class (where a different member wants to play it).
In conclusion: Pirates can get it just as easily and normal groups suffer logistics issues when trying to use the material. Ergo it's not a good method of dealing with piracy.
Now, if only Assassin was able to take Garrote specialization.
Black garrote makes me very excited. I might be able to preform my dream of being able to strangle my enemies from the shadows.
Now, if only Assassin was able to take Garrote specialization.
Yeah, I can't wait for the full write-up for more exotic powers like this. I look forward to multiple garrote powers, as well as other renditions of typical non-battlefield weapons that assassins employed.
1) Lots of poison. The preview though doesn't show any that i can tell..
2) Prof with Garrote and Katar. Katars to me are a sort of Iconic weapon for assassins, and not because of assassin's greed. But because assassin and katar hail from the same place.
3) Feats and stuff that enhance the garrote even on a rogue.
Yeah, my biggests hopes is
1) Lots of poison. The preview though doesn't show any that i can tell..
This would be a terrible idea (indirectly though). There is an entire class of monsters in 4E that is completely immune to poison. This means that the assassin would find himself with a massive degradation in power against Undead.
A few powers would be good, but it shouldn't be a major part or feature of the class. I don't want to have to design encounters and realize for an entire dungeon (that happens to be an undead Crypt) the assassin player is going to be basically useless.
This would be a terrible idea (indirectly though). There is an entire class of monsters in 4E that is completely immune to poison. This means that the assassin would find himself with a massive degradation in power against Undead.
A few powers would be good, but it shouldn't be a major part or feature of the class. I don't want to have to design encounters and realize for an entire dungeon (that happens to be an undead Crypt) the assassin player is going to be basically useless.
That's what the poisoner feat is for of course you silly. Like Badda bing, badda boom, and you piece resistances and immunities.
I've been looking for a class that could actually use this one effectively.
This, and the threat of piracy, is the reason I hope they format the Assassin article in the same way they did the Psion. Despite all the "But we can't print it out aside from actually printing out the character [So?!]" claims, it's the only really effective way of keeping people who aren't paying for the service for getting what those who are do.
Actually you can print it from the compendium just fine
This, and the threat of piracy, is the reason I hope they format the Assassin article in the same way they did the Psion. Despite all the "But we can't print it out aside from actually printing out the character [So?!]" claims, it's the only really effective way of keeping people who aren't paying for the service for getting what those who are do.
They shouldn't do that because it makes the class much harder to use and I would probably never read it. While I love my computer, I find reading PDFs on a computer screen very difficult compared to reading a book and so this would relegate the assassin to "never bothered to read" status pretty quick.
But because assassin and katar hail from the same place.
India is not in the Middle East...
This, and the threat of piracy, is the reason I hope they format the Assassin article in the same way they did the Psion. Despite all the "But we can't print it out aside from actually printing out the character [So?!]" claims, it's the only really effective way of keeping people who aren't paying for the service for getting what those who are do.
If WotC has any sense, they will never EVER do that again.
Could someone light me on this one: When is the release of the Assassin class schedule?
Sometime next month. I would guess in the first two weeks, but we won't know the date until the editorial calendar come out......which should probably be either today or monday.
Sometime next month. I would guess in the first two weeks, but we won't know the date until the editorial calendar come out......which should probably be either today or monday.
the calander is up, and it is spread between 3 days...heroic, paragon and epic...11th, 14th, and 21st!?!?!?!?!?
the CB might get it on the 1st before the articles come out
the CB might get it on the 1st before the articles come out
That's what I was hoping for, but the calendar doesn't say that CB and the Compendium are being updated so I don't know. I really wanted to play an assassin over Labor Day weekend, but now I don't think it's going to happen.
well i know 100 percent for sure CB gets updated on the first 1st what i dont know is if the assassin will be on it.
Some say we might not see it on the CB until Nov.
I'm hoping for October myself, I just don't see it being debuted in the CB before the magazines.
If it does come out in October I may run a short Ravenlofty game for Holloween with a Paladin Darklord who is cursed with an Avenger alter-ego and the Revenant of the innocent Cleric he killed that cursed him.
The Revenant is now an Assassin.
The Domain is called Providence and the populace are devout, law-abiding folk during the day, but after sunset they fall prey to thier baser instincts. It's a WIP.
Bel
My main beef with DDi is the monthly charge for what is a 40 dollar program. (I talk here of the Character Generator) I would end up paying up to 300 bucks or more for this dog, if I keep the service up each year throughout this edition's life span.
You have a very narrow view of what the DDi offers.
You misunderstand. It isn't that the DDi is not offering other things and services. It is that what I wanted was a character generator.
It is shoved into an online service that charges a price for its use, and isn't patched but in a monthly update that adds all the rules and mechanics that came out the month before. (Meaning that bugs, like the printing offset and the wrong adding of skills numbers, have to wait for fixes) Though the initial buy in is "cheap" for a month of service, eventually, I will end up paying more than if the thing was a stand alone program, like it is supposed to be.
Please, people, stop calling the thing "CB." I keep thinking of the radio name instead of the "Character Builder." Spell it out or call it the "Generator."
Boy, I sure do love the CB.
So, does anyone else think there will be a Drow racial feat. thay lets them Shadowdance from their cloud of Darkness power? Turning it into a 1/encounter teleport-to-foe?
Hi, everyone.
What does the community think about how “Shade Form” power works? Can you sustain it when you make an attack or only if it ends at the end of turn?
I would just like to point out that the Githzerai were in the CB before either of the articles were released last month. Just saying that they still might have the assassin in CB before the articles start comming out.
No, It has already been confirm IT wont be in CB until Oct.6
The articles will come first starting on Sept.11
I would just like to point out that the Githzerai were in the CB before either of the articles were released last month. Just saying that they still might have the assassin in CB before the articles start comming out.
Totally different situation. The githzerai was a PH3 preview, which are directly added to the compendium. The two Dragon articles that then followed were just meant as additional support. We're getting another one of those This month for Skill Powers.
The assassin, on the other hand, is a DDi exclusive. The magazine articles aren't just additional support, they are the whole enchilada. While the assassin wont be live in Compendium this month, from what's been discussed it does appear as though like the monk playtest, the assassin is being fast tracked into the Compendium as part of the October Compendium update, unlike the rest of this month's issue which won't be in the compendium until November.