http://www.flickr.com/photos/davethegame/3264017196/in/set-72157613512677768/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davethegame/3264016606/in/set-72157613512677768/
Full article here:
http://www.critical-hits.com/2009/02/08/dungeons-dragons-at-new-york-comic-con-09/
In secret temples far from bustling cities and priestly hierarchies orders of esoteric warriors train their initiates in ancient traditions now forgotten or forbidden by [can't read] religious organizations. The champions of these orders are avengers - deadly weapons in the hands of their gods. Imbued with divine power through secret rites of initiation. In battle avengers swear to execute divine vengeance, entering a mental state that gives them unverving focus on a single enemy.
As an avenger you were trained in a monastery, initiated through secret rites and imbued with divine power to smite your gods fos. You might be a disciple of Ioun, sworn to hunt and exterminate the minions of Vecna until one day you face the maimed god. You could be an agent of the Raven Queen, bringing death to those who would defy your mistress. Or perhaps you save Bahamut as an agent of justice, bringing ruin to tyrants and oppressors. The organization devoted to your god might view you as an heretic or a hero, but you answer only to your god and to the vows you swore upon your initiation to an avenger.
Where will those vows lead you? One thing is certain: Doing the will of your god is never easy and never free of peril.
The class looks pretty interesting. Cloth, huh? I was shocked. I like the fluff discussion on alignment and the war of knowledge. Very cool artwork, too.
Wis/dex/int
Simple melée and ranged, military melée
Censure of X is the customization option
Wis/dex/int
Simple melée and ranged, military melée
Censure of X is the customization option
but from the looks of things it seems wisdom will be for all attacks melee or magic with dex/int as build options
this makes me very sad.Next question :
Avengers can take an enemy and roll each attack twice and they get bonus damage when certain things happen. Does this mean there Striker Extra Damage feature is always on ? Constant weak sneak attack + extra accuaricy ?
I love that class, i really really love that class !!!
I was very let down by the Invoker and Shaman but I was pleasantly surprised how much I love the new Bard. It looks like I will be thrilled with the Avenger also.
Too bad there is no screen shots of the powers.
I read the Censures a moment ago and thought "Pursuit" get X+Dex Mod Damage while Retribution get only +Int Mod Damage, but then i realised, "the bonus is comulative" that is huge isn't it ?
The point of the ability is that when you choose a target, its allies will abandon it. If all of its allies try and hit you, you will end up having a HUGE bonus to damage against it. In order to avoid giving you that huge bonus, chances are, none of its allies will attack you. That is the real benefit of the power. The damage is very conditional... a DM has to choose to grant you that extra damage. But, in order to avoid giving you that extra damage, the DM has to choose to essentially have that creature's allies leave it to its fate against you.
The point of the ability is that when you choose a target, its allies will abandon it. If all of its allies try and hit you, you will end up having a HUGE bonus to damage against it. In order to avoid giving you that huge bonus, chances are, none of its allies will attack you.
Yet this doesn't prevent the allies from simply getting adjacent to you while attacking someone else to still negate the oath feature.
I am curious to see how this turns out in actual play
Yet this doesn't prevent the allies from simply getting adjacent to you while attacking someone else to still negate the oath feature.
I am curious to see how this turns out in actual play
If they are adjacent to you and attacking someone else, they still are not really helping their ally. That still pretty much leaves you unmolested while you kill your prey.
That's decent compensation for losing your Oath bonus to accuracy. I'd still rather have the Oath bonus, but it is a nice backup plan.
Personally, I suspect that the Retribution power will come up more than you think. If additional monsters want to stop you from slaughtering their ally, they'll probably find it easiest to just attack you while you're there. They get a chance to do normal damage, you get +2 or 3 damage (at level 1, scaling over time), and hopefully you can't shift away and regain your accuracy. Since it will probably take two monsters to actually pin you down so that you can't shift away and still gain your accuracy bonus (normally you'd just shift around your chosen foe, away from the new monster), you may even get hit twice. So you're looking at a +4 or +6 damage bonus.
That's decent compensation for losing your Oath bonus to accuracy. I'd still rather have the Oath bonus, but it is a nice backup plan.
wow so where is Kobold avanger...with minor shift his name is now a power play class/race...
The point of the ability is that when you choose a target, its allies will abandon it. If all of its allies try and hit you, you will end up having a HUGE bonus to damage against it. In order to avoid giving you that huge bonus, chances are, none of its allies will attack you. That is the real benefit of the power. The damage is very conditional... a DM has to choose to grant you that extra damage. But, in order to avoid giving you that extra damage, the DM has to choose to essentially have that creature's allies leave it to its fate against you.
And that is so freackin' cool
wow so where is Kobold avanger...with minor shift his name is now a power play class/race...
Shifting twice won't help. The problem isn't that you can't shift far enough, its that there's nowhere to go that is both adjacent to your chosen target and unadjacent to at least one other enemy.
Unless you have a reach weapon. Then you can do it. So kobolds with longspears.
If they are adjacent to you and attacking someone else, they still are not really helping their ally. That still pretty much leaves you unmolested while you kill your prey.
From the D&D Experience premade character sheets we know that the oath only works if the chosen enemy is the only enemy adjacent to you.
So if they are adjacent to you they deny you your double roll even if they don't attack you.
Personally, I suspect that the Retribution power will come up more than you think. If additional monsters want to stop you from slaughtering their ally, they'll probably find it easiest to just attack you while you're there. They get a chance to do normal damage, you get +2 or 3 damage (at level 1, scaling over time), and hopefully you can't shift away and regain your accuracy. Since it will probably take two monsters to actually pin you down so that you can't shift away and still gain your accuracy bonus (normally you'd just shift around your chosen foe, away from the new monster), you may even get hit twice. So you're looking at a +4 or +6 damage bonus.
That's decent compensation for losing your Oath bonus to accuracy. I'd still rather have the Oath bonus, but it is a nice backup plan.
You kidding? If an avenger makes intelligence its second highest stat, and one of its two spike stats (along with wisdom, which is what I assume most of its powers will be based off of), the possible damage bonus from multiple targets attacking you will be massive. Assuming that you start with a 16 int (I would), that's a cumulative +3 bonus PER creature that attacks you. By level 30, that will be a cumulative +7 bonus to damage PER creature that attacks you. If multiple creatures attack you, that bonus will add up fast, very fast. Even at first level you are not talking about a +4 or +6 to damage. You are talking about a +6 to damage if only TWO other creatures attack you. Three makes it +9. Four makes it +12. As your level rises, those numbers will rise as well. At level 30 that is a +14 for two creatures attacking you. +21 for three. And so on and so forth. As a DM, I would think twice about allowing a player to gain that sort of bonus to damage. A creature might be better off if its allies just leave it to one on one fight the avenger.
From the D&D Experience premade character sheets we know that the oath only works if the chosen enemy is the only enemy adjacent to you.
So if they are adjacent to you they deny you your double roll even if they don't attack you.
Ah. I see. Yes, that would work. Still, the creature will be left to fight you alone, and that is something. If the rest of the group just moves off to range from you, thus causing the adjacent creatures to you to loose their melee attacks if they stay adjacent to you, while the group uses ranged attacks to pelt the foe you are focusing on, I would say you have already done your job quite well as an avenger.
Lets say that this is the map. A means avenger, O means oath enemy, M means other monster.
You kidding? If an avenger makes intelligence its second highest stat, and one of its two spike stats (along with wisdom, which is what I assume most of its powers will be based off of), the possible damage bonus from multiple targets attacking you will be massive. Assuming that you start with a 16 int (I would), that's a cumulative +3 bonus PER creature that attacks you. By level 30, that will be a cumulative +7 bonus to damage PER creature that attacks you. If multiple creatures attack you, that bonus will add up fast, very fast. Even at first level you are not talking about a +4 or +6 to damage. You are talking about a +6 to damage if only TWO other creatures attack you. Three makes it +9. Four makes it +12. As your level rises, those numbers will rise as well. At level 30 that is a +14 for two creatures attacking you. +21 for three. And so on and so forth. As a DM, I would think twice about allowing a player to gain that sort of bonus to damage. A creature might be better off if its allies just leave it to one on one fight the avenger.
Sure.
Lets say you've got a level 1 Avenger with a 16 intelligence. Plausible for a Deva. Every time you are successfully hit by a foe other than your Oath enemy, you get +3 damage. Lets say you are attacked twice, but hit only once.
But, assuming that your enemies were being smart, you've lost your Oath bonus to accuracy.
If you deal 1d12+4 damage per hit (fullblade, I'm ignoring criticals for simplicity even though they do matter and would enhance my argument), then the average damage of a regular hit is 10.5. The average damage of your boosted hit is 13.5.
But what about your Oath bonus? Lets say you hit your target on an 8+. The better your base accuracy the more disfavorable to my argument, so I think that's fair?
If you got the Oath bonus, your expected damage will be (1-.35*.35)*10.5 = 9.21375.
If you got the Retribution damage but no Oath bonus, your expected damage will be .65*13.5 = 8.775.
As the AC of the monster goes up, this swings more and more in favor of the Oath being better than Retribution, meaning the monsters should be more willing to give you Retribution damage than to let you get your Oath bonus. And of course as the number of monsters attacking you goes up, or as the monster's AC falls, it swings the other way. As you level up, it does scale, but base damage scales as well so I'm not sure that will matter.
Its still an awesome ability though. It gives you a powerful backup plan for whenever you can't get your Oath damage. A Retribution Avenger should be more willing to wade into the battle, confident that they will be ignored, or, if not, that they will get bonus damage almost as good as their Oath bonus, or, if they get really beaten up, better. By contrast a Pursuit Avenger should be more concerned with dragging their enemies away from the fight to battle alone, and then pursuing them for extra damage if or when their enemies run away again.
Wow. I was nearly disappointed by the avenger. Until I noticed the class features. When not wearing heavy armor or using a shield, an avenger gains a bonus of 3 to AC. This makes cloth armor equal to hide. In hide, the avenger is better off than a cleric of equal level wearing maille.
Plus, if I were to go for Censure of Retribution ... I'd want them to hit me. Sure, upgrading to Leather is nice and all, but +3 to +4 damage per non Enmity enemy that hits me? Just give me some damage resistance and I will go to town.
What do you know, Avengers aren't Templars, they're Assassins (using the original meaning of the word). I didn't expect it, since every other Divine class has heavy armor, but it makes so much sense.
I love it. They're half Assassins, and half Enigo Montoya.
I love it. They're half Assassins, and half Enigo Montoya.
I am Enigo Montoya. You killed my father... prepare to die! :D
Cloth Armor should be the right of all Divine characters.
Also, I would very much like to see a Crossbow using build in Divine Power
The rust monster will also be in it, and they showed off the new rust monster miniature.
*happy dance*
I like Armor of Faith, but I think I would have prefered Avengers to have armor profs instead and then make Armor of Faith a feat for Divine classes but limit it to Cloth Armor.
Cloth Armor should be the right of all Divine characters.
Also, I would very much like to see a Crossbow using build in Divine Power
Wow... I agree with absolutely EVERYTHING you said. It's rare i get to say that! :D
Maybe the different "censure," builds excel at targeting and eliminating different classes of enemies. Censure of Pursuit Avengers excel at taking out ranged combatants (some strikers, some leaders, some controllers), while Censure of Retribution Avengers focus on eliminating defender-ish combatants (brutes, soldiers) thus opening the way to the squishies behind them. (?)
Of course I haven't seen the Avenger's powers yet....
Honestly, the Avenger seems a lot, to me, like what a monk would be, but with weapons.
Yeah... that's kind of what I was feeling... except that I think it's awesome.
Monk is a catchall term that has meant a lot of different things, especially to different cultures. Western Monks are quite different from Eastern Monks (or at least Christian Monks from Buddhist Monks), and in there we find the difference:
The Avenger is a member of a religious mystery cult, and what's more, an assassin set to remove the enemies of the cult. S/he draws her/his power from his/her god, and is in many ways similar to a western monk, especially of the various gnostic (or perhaps heretical) denominations of the early Church (and later).
The Monk is (at least as it was in 3e) a master of martial arts, eastern weapons, and above all else the discipline of the mind, body, and soul to transform the power of self into a force greater than normal human limitations. Eastern Monks are not so much religious figures as masters of their soul energy, ki.
Now, I know I'm going to get religious Buddhist flaming (which is ironic since Buddhism is supposed to be all-loving and nonviolent and compassionate... yeah), so I'll say it here: that isn't to say that Buddhism and other Eastern traditions aren't religious. Religious overtones were added through Mahayana. Early Buddhism, though, and the discipline of Theravada and various other sects that are not as religiously oriented but more-so philosophically oriented, such as Zen, very much embody the statement that Wizards seem to be simplifying to the power source of Ki.
But for those who want to play a monastic striker character and who are fed up with waiting another year (or more!?) for Ki, the Avenger is a good choice too.
I personally think this is more awesomely fluffed than any other development of the classes for PHB2. I expected Bard, Shaman, Barbarian, and Druid as much; Warden and Sorcerer were a bit more unexpected due to uncertain adaptation methods (though Sorcerer comes close to the awesomeness of Avenger, and I love how they updated Bard), and Invoker seemed pretty obvious an oracular character. Avenger ended up based on the Shadowbane stalker sort-of, and I really like how it ended out. It's not just an Avenging Paladin that strikes instead of defends, as some felt it must be because it is called the Avenger...
Anyone else feel that these guys look a lot like Warhammer Witch Hunters? (I don't mean this in a bad way.)
that is exactly why I hope they get some Crossbow powers in the future.
But for those who want to play a monastic striker character and who are fed up with waiting another year (or more!?) for Ki, the Avenger is a good choice too.
I wonder if the Sacred Fist will be an Avenger paragon path in 4E (that gains the ability to fight without weapons without being a Ki class), to fill out the 'divine monk' archetype. If it's in PHB2 or Divine Power, it might even serve as an alternative for those who want to play as a Monk-like character but don't want to wait for PHB3 (or whenever the Ki source arrives).
So avengers attack with with WIS, invokers attack with WIS, and clerics attack with STR/WIS. I'm not sure if the Paladin's CHA attacks should feel unique or lonely.
I kind of wish one of the new divine classes cared about CHA, maybe the invoker. Force of personality seems like it could have gone well with a class that taps directly into the the very origin of divine power, but such talk should be saved for anther thread.
Back to the Avenger. I like them and can hardly wait to get a look at their attack and utility powers. I am a little disappointed their isn't a heavy armored templar-like build (maybe come Divine Power).
I wonder if the Sacred Fist will be an Avenger paragon path in 4E (that gains the ability to fight without weapons without being a Ki class), to fill out the 'divine monk' archetype. If it's in PHB2 or Divine Power, it might even serve as an alternative for those who want to play as a Monk-like character but don't want to wait for PHB3 (or whenever the Ki source arrives).
While that would be really cool, I'm not going to get my hopes up. By all reasonable accounts martial power should have contained options for some kind of unarmed brawler build which would have helped fill the current monkless void.
Back to the Avenger. I like them and can hardly wait to get a look at their attack and utility powers. I am a little disappointed their isn't a heavy armored templar-like build (maybe come Divine Power).
I'm pretty sure they call those "Paladin's." :P
While that would be really cool, I'm not going to get my hopes up. By all reasonable accounts martial power should have contained options for some kind of unarmed brawler build which would have helped fill the current monkless void.
Ruthless Rufian + Belt of the Brawler.
I'm pretty sure they call those "Paladin's."
Avenging Paladin's, to be both exact and ironic
Oh, and I want PHB2 now. The Avenger has completely and utterly captured my imagination (and I haven't even seen the entire class yet). The features are greatness. The skill list makes me very happy (stealth, perception, acrobatics).
He wouldn't move away unless he was primarily a squishy ranged combatant worried about OAs, right?
Unless Avengers get a feat similar to Intelligent Blademaster for Swordmages I don't even think he would need to worry about your OAs, Str is a dump stat for avengers.
I have to see that I am not impressed with either censure, I guess I'll have to wait until Divine Power to see if the avenger becomes interesting for me.
I'm pretty sure they call those "Paladin's." :P
Avenging Paladin's, to be both exact and ironic
Unfortunately not. You're a defender trying to pretend being a striker and end up not contributing to the party effort because you can't fill the striker role and while unsuccessfully trying you also fail to fill out your defender role. Always great at randomly assigned RPGA tables to get one or two of these guys in your party and then all the others have to struggle to stay alive because of them. That's one of the donwsides of 4e's role system.
And I don't agree that avenging (two handed sword paladins) are not awesome characters.
And for Two Handed Assasin striking for their God ... well i can visualize it really well ...
They really have a taste both of Warhammer Witch Hunter and Confrontation Griffin Executor.
I'm not sure if this was intentional from the designers standpoint, but I find it very interesting that the Paladin resembles the Templars/Hospitalers, while the Avenger resembles the Assassins from the Crusades era.
Oh, and I want PHB2 now. The Avenger has completely and utterly captured my imagination (and I haven't even seen the entire class yet). The features are greatness. The skill list makes me very happy (stealth, perception, acrobatics).
Well, considering one of the Paladin PPs is the Hospitaller ... ;)
Unfortunately not. You're a defender trying to pretend being a striker and end up not contributing to the party effort because you can't fill the striker role and while unsuccessfully trying you also fail to fill out your defender role. Always great at randomly assigned RPGA tables to get one or two of these guys in your party and then all the others have to struggle to stay alive because of them. That's one of the donwsides of 4e's role system.
I'll assume you haven't stopped by char op in awhile. There's a righteous rage of tempus cha-ladin that took the star pact warlock paragon path to gain an 18-20 crit range and wields an executioner ax that hits like a truck and consistently does good striker damage. He doesn't Nova QUITE as hard as a two blade ranger with blade cascade but he crits often and he crits hard. And he can choose when to crit with RRoT. So paladin's can act as strikers too.... they just aren't designed with it in mind. (I give you there are several classes more suited to it but they're still capable.)
I'll assume you haven't stopped by char op in awhile. There's a righteous rage of tempus cha-ladin that took the star pact warlock paragon path to gain an 18-20 crit range and wields an executioner ax that hits like a truck and consistently does good striker damage.
That's fine for the tempurians, but it doesn't help followers of other gods.
The PHB 2 will be a "wise" book. Before this book there was only one build with Wisdom as primary (devoted cleric) and now with the PHB 2 we have a total of 9 builds with wisdom as primary.
Appearance of atributes as primary score per build
a) before PHB2 (8 classes at PHB + 2 swordmage builds and 1 artificer build)
Str 5
Con 1
Dex 3
Int 5
Wis 1
Cha 4
b) after PHB 2
Str 11
Cons 1
Dex 3
Int 5
Wis 9
Cha 6
Wisdom have were the last in appearances (counting both primary and secondary appearances) and now its the second losing only to strength, but wisdom still have more secondary appearances than strength.
Now Constitution and Intelligence have a lot of appearances as secondary stats. Cons = 9; Int = 7; Wis = 6; Dex = 5; Cha = 5; Str = 3.
Now we can finally conclude that the half-orc is a Str/Dex race. If they were Str/Wis the sample half-orc avenger would have 18 Wis.
At first i disagreed with you but now I think i'm starting to believe. Not bad for a brutal scoundrel or a two blade ranger huh?
At first i disagreed with you but now I think i'm starting to believe. Not bad for a brutal scoundrel or a two blade ranger huh?
Yeah, I prefer them more martial than divine or primal.
I can understand the Str/Dex arrange -> The orc have a hulking build. When they get more slender, but with the same strength (union between orc and human), they become naturally agile as if their body feels more light weighted. Would be to hard to explain if the stat arrangement were Str/Wis, and besides we already have the longtooth shifter with Str/Wis coming in this book. I firmly believe that WotC will never put two races with the same stats bonuses in the same book.
Orcs and half-orcs can be easily differentiated by the choice of weapon. See the half-orc avenger: He wields a longspear (Str/Dex) while a pure orc would wield weapons like greataxe/maul (Str/Cons), iconic orc weapons.
One more thing.
With deva being Int/Wis, greater are the chances that the kalashtar will be the Wis/Cha race... maybe perfect for the Empath class (psi leader)...
[just playing with the future for fun, I need to do this on a regular basis to continue living in joy]
Ruthless Rufian + Belt of the Brawler.
Can't pull it off starting as a 1st level character. Requires the DM to drop you the item or for you to save up the GP before the build is functional. Most importantly it doesn't scale with level since you never gain any enhancement bonus to attack & damage.
Tempest Fighter with a pair of spiked gauntlets is a more function "unarmed" build, but I'd hesitate to call spiked gauntlets unarmed.
Shifting twice won't help. The problem isn't that you can't shift far enough, its that there's nowhere to go that is both adjacent to your chosen target and unadjacent to at least one other enemy.
Unless you have a reach weapon. Then you can do it. So kobolds with longspears.
Kobolds are Small. They can't wield longspears.
They'd have to use a spear enchanted with Shard of Myrmidion or whatever it's called; the magic weapon that increases a spear's reach by 1.
Kobolds are Small. They can't wield longspears.
They'd have to use a spear enchanted with Shard of Myrmidion or whatever it's called; the magic weapon that increases a spear's reach by 1.
And I was wrong anyways. You have to be adjacent to your foe to get your Oath bonus. Avengers don't work so well with reach weapons.
And I was wrong anyways. You have to be adjacent to your foe to get your Oath bonus. Avengers don't work so well with reach weapons.
Yeah I caught up with the conversation. I just thought I'd mention the deal with kobolds and reach, since it's actually something I've put thought into before!
And I was wrong anyways. You have to be adjacent to your foe to get your Oath bonus. Avengers don't work so well with reach weapons.
Awww.... crap. This whole time i was thinking polearm gamble let you get an OA against an enemy entering your reach. I was going to say if you went elf pursuing avenger and put an 18 in wis a 16 in dex (after racials) and a 14 in strength you'd have enough points to auto qualify for heavy blade opportunity and polearm gamble. Then you could just get adjacent to your target and if the class has any "Hit: push/slide your target x squares/knock prone/restrain" at-wills you could keep them away and lock the oath enemy down. Buuuuutttttt..... I looked up polearm gamble and they have to end adjacent to you to activate it. Maybe if they get a push that doesn't require they move into the sqaure the enemy left... or a pull that doesn't require them to do the opposite. I guess we'll just wait and see then...
Yeah, I prefer them more martial than divine or primal.
I can understand the Str/Dex arrange -> The orc have a hulking build. When they get more slender, but with the same strength (union between orc and human), they become naturally agile as if their body feels more light weighted. Would be to hard to explain if the stat arrangement were Str/Wis, and besides we already have the longtooth shifter with Str/Wis coming in this book. I firmly believe that WotC will never put two races with the same stats bonuses in the same book.
Orcs and half-orcs can be easily differentiated by the choice of weapon. See the half-orc avenger: He wields a longspear (Str/Dex) while a pure orc would wield weapons like greataxe/maul (Str/Cons), iconic orc weapons.
That makes complete sense. I agree nearly completely. My only difference in opinion is i can see them as barbarians. I don't know enough about any other primal classes to say anything at all about those but "Meh." We'll see when it comes out i guess.
Starting HP 14? is that right?
14+Con.
With avengers using two handed weapons, I don't really see them as "assassins." Maybe if avengers used daggers and one handed swords... but a two handed sword assassin? Eh... not the way I envision it.
And I don't agree that avenging (two handed sword paladins) are not awesome characters.
I really meant the flavor of the Avenger is similar to the Assassins of the Crusades era. They are part of secret societies. They are specially and secretly trained. They go into trances, or altered mental states, that focus exclusively on the death of their target (this may or may not have been true, but it's attributed to the Assassins). They could be/are viewed as heretics among members of their religious organization. These are all things associated with the Assassins.
I assume the reason Avengers use big swords and axes is because this is a much more dramatic visual. Also, the dagger wielding striker already exists in the Rogue. Also, true two handed strikers don't really exist yet (save the Barbarian). That stated, I'm interested to see, from a combat standpoint, why it's advantageous to wield a two hander with the Avenger.
That stated, I'm interested to see, from a combat standpoint, why it's advantageous to wield a two hander with the Avenger.
Easy, bigger damage dice. Avengers don't need any incentive to wield two-handers, instead they simply have the option with no restrictions. Rogues only use light weapons because the class restricts them, same with two-weapon rangers. Since avenger lack such restrictions they might as well use the biggest nastiest weapon that they can get their hands one.
Easy, bigger damage dice. Avengers don't need any incentive to wield two-handers, instead they simply have the option with no restrictions. Rogues only use light weapons because the class restricts them, same with two-weapon rangers. Since avenger lack such restrictions they might as well use the biggest nastiest weapon that they can get their hands one.
That being said, there is one reason to wield a one handed weapon... higher defense. Taking the two-weapon defense feat and wielding a parrying dagger grants the avenger a +2 bonus to defense, and that bonus does not interfere with their class bonus. That class bonus is only lost when you use a shield.
Easy, bigger damage dice. Avengers don't need any incentive to wield two-handers, instead they simply have the option with no restrictions. Rogues only use light weapons because the class restricts them, same with two-weapon rangers. Since avenger lack such restrictions they might as well use the biggest nastiest weapon that they can get their hands one.
Add in super accuracy and there's every reason in the world to power attack non-stop with the biggest chunk of metal you can find.
Easy, bigger damage dice. Avengers don't need any incentive to wield two-handers, instead they simply have the option with no restrictions. Rogues only use light weapons because the class restricts them, same with two-weapon rangers. Since avenger lack such restrictions they might as well use the biggest nastiest weapon that they can get their hands one.
That was too obvious...lol. I'm a fool. RRoT also rewards bigger weapons as well, especially ones with high crit.
And I was wrong anyways. You have to be adjacent to your foe to get your Oath bonus. Avengers don't work so well with reach weapons.
Wrong. You do not have to be adjacent to your foe: rather, you can have no other foes adjacent to you other than your Oath foe.
Reading the Oath of Enmity feature in one light can suggest that the foe must be adjacent to you, but, reading it another way says otherwise. But, the premade character Wizards made uses a reach weapon, which suggests the above interpretation.
Wrong. You do not have to be adjacent to your foe: rather, you can have no other foes adjacent to you other than your Oath foe.
Reading the Oath of Enmity feature in one light can suggest that the foe must be adjacent to you, but, reading it another way says otherwise. But, the premade character Wizards made uses a reach weapon, which suggests the above interpretation.
The avenger demo character sheet says target has to be the only enemy adjacent to you when you make the attack. So you do got to be adjacent to the target in order to get the extra attack roll benefit.
I'm more interested in what incentives there are to go with a Holy Symbol over a big two-hander. Aside from just range, hopefully.
Um, the way I understand it, you can wear a Holy Symbol and wield a two-hander at the same time. Unlike other implements, holy symbols can be worn. No?
Um, the way I understand it, you can wear a Holy Symbol and wield a two-hander at the same time. Unlike other implements, holy symbols can be worn. No?
Yes. Just like the Cleric. You can put it in a neck/whatever slot.
Yes. Just like the Cleric. You can put it in a neck/whatever slot.
It bears mentioning that wearing it around your neck doesn't cancel your ability to wear a "neck" slot item.
You know, what I actually find really strange is that the Avenger does not gain the Intuition skill as a class skill. Considering how inquisitor flavored they are, I would expect that skill to be a class skill for sure!
I assume you mean Insight. Yeah, the omission of that skill prevents their skill list from being perfect.
Um, the way I understand it, you can wear a Holy Symbol and wield a two-hander at the same time. Unlike other implements, holy symbols can be worn. No?
Yes, but I try never to assume that my DM is going to give me as many magic items as I want. I consider myself lucky to get just what I need. I'm wondering if there's any incentive to prioritize improving your Holy Symbol over getting a fancier magic two-hander.
Yes, but I try never to assume that my DM is going to give me as many magic items as I want. I consider myself lucky to get just what I need. I'm wondering if there's any incentive to prioritize improving your Holy Symbol over getting a fancier magic two-hander.
It will just depend on the powers you take. If you load up on weapon attacks there's probably no reason to even take an implement. I haven't seen the full class yet though so i have no idea.
It will just depend on the powers you take. If you load up on weapon attacks there's probably no reason to even take an implement. I haven't seen the full class yet though so i have no idea.
Doesn't the implement give pluses to all your powers ? Or is it just the ones with the Implement KEyword ?
And thinking I was so worried about it before getting some crunch...
I was right when I told someone who couldn't visualize them to think that Nazguls could have been Avengers, look at the picture! :D Nazguls as "Avengers of Sauron" really work.
Even because they also multiclass well with spellcasting classes, perfect.
About the weapon choice, I see how +2 proficiency weapons make sense for them thanks to their extra accuracy.
So hello Execution Axe... Could very well be called Avenger Axe from now on!
So dwarf Avenger anyone..? A pity they look a little ridiculous in the role... Although nearly perfect as Isolating (Retribution) Avengers thanks to their resilience and everything. Add some multiclassing and the Grudge Style and watch them add damage like mads...
You know, what I actually find really strange is that the Avenger does not gain the Intuition skill as a class skill. Considering how inquisitor flavored they are, I would expect that skill to be a class skill for sure!
They're not inquisitor flavoured at all. Avengers fight on the front lines, taking damage, and risking thier lives for something they believe. inquisitors are scum sucking cowards that butcher defenceless old women and other vulnerable people and then stole there stuff. Inquisitors never fought in battle, they used the power of the church murder innocent people, and then hid behind the churches power then vile **** that they were. Avengers are cool, while inquisitors are hateful monsters who never faced the justice they deserved.
They're not inquisitor flavoured at all. Avengers fight on the front lines, taking damage, and risking thier lives for something they believe. inquisitors are scum sucking cowards that butcher defenceless old women and other vulnerable people and then stole there stuff. Inquisitors never fought in battle, they used the power of the church murder innocent people, and then hid behind the churches power then vile **** that they were. Avengers are cool, while inquisitors are hateful monsters who never faced the justice they deserved.
Are you talking real life? Because, the CoC asks us to not do so, and I was not discussing inquisitors in terms of real life christian figures. I was talking about inquisitors as they are portrayed in popular fantasy, stuff such as Warhammer (40k). The avengers have a very strong "witch hunter/inquisitor" flavor to them. Seems to me insight would have been a prime choice as one of their class skills.
They're not inquisitor flavoured at all. Avengers fight on the front lines, taking damage, and risking thier lives for something they believe. inquisitors are scum sucking cowards that butcher defenceless old women and other vulnerable people and then stole there stuff. Inquisitors never fought in battle, they used the power of the church murder innocent people, and then hid behind the churches power then vile **** that they were. Avengers are cool, while inquisitors are hateful monsters who never faced the justice they deserved.
Slightly off-topic and delving into religion a little also, how certain are you that they never faced the justice they deserved? (all in jest, :P )
Slightly off-topic and delving into religion a little also, how certain are you that they never faced the justice they deserved? (all in jest, :P )
Hehe. :D :P
Are you talking real life? Because, the CoC asks us to not do so, and I was not discussing inquisitors in terms of real life christian figures. I was talking about inquisitors as they are portrayed in popular fantasy, stuff such as Warhammer (40k). The avengers have a very strong "witch hunter/inquisitor" flavor to them. Seems to me insight would have been a prime choice as one of their class skills.
I agree there was a little real-life <-> game confusion, but I don't think the Avenger has even the fantasy inquisitor feel. An inquisitor, even fantasy-speaking, is more of a subtle figure. I don't think it actually has to do with class, but more with role-playing and skills. I see paladins and clerics as better inquisitors, leaving the avenger with a more grotesque and dark feel which could be described with "with hunter" but only to a certain extent. "Fanatic", "Ordained Assassin" and "Zealot" are more fitting archetypes IMO.
Again I'd like to discuss similarities with figures such as the Nazgul. Were they dispatched to investigate (the role of an inquisitor) or to KILL?
I agree there was a little real-life <-> game confusion, but I don't think the Avenger has even the fantasy inquisitor feel. An inquisitor, even fantasy-speaking, is more of a subtle figure. I don't think it actually has to do with class, but more with role-playing and skills. I see paladins and clerics as better inquisitors, leaving the avenger with a more grotesque and dark feel which could be described with "with hunter" but only to a certain extent. "Fanatic", "Ordained Assassin" and "Zealot" are more fitting archetypes IMO.
Again I'd like to discuss similarities with figures such as the Nazgul. Were they dispatched to investigate (the role of an inquisitor) or to KILL?
I still don't agree with you. You see, fanatic, zealot, and "ordained killer" are all terms I would use to describe fantasy depictions of the inquisitor. If you look at warhammer specifically, the lightly (or not) armored figure with a large weapon and a robe nicely fits into the visual image of the warhammer inquisitor. The manner in which the avenger fights perfectly matches the type of fighting that the inquisitors employ in such genres. Even the alignment rules for the avenger fit in nicely! Where a paladin must be of the same alignment as their god, thus forcing lawful good paladins to be lawful good, inquisitors to a lawful good god can still be unaligned. This is because, like fantasy inquisitors, they believe that their end justifies the means. They are willing to do very evil things in order to attain what they believe to be a higher good. The only thing the avenger is missing in order to be able to fit this archetype is the insight skill, which even happens to work off their primary stat!
I just really feel insight should have been a class skill for avengers.
the Avenger makes me think of Silias from the Da Vinci Code
That is a really good example
me likesI still don't agree with you. You see, fanatic, zealot, and "ordained killer" are all terms I would use to describe fantasy depictions of the inquisitor. If you look at warhammer specifically, the lightly (or not) armored figure with a large weapon and a robe nicely fits into the visual image of the warhammer inquisitor. The manner in which the avenger fights perfectly matches the type of fighting that the inquisitors employ in such genres. Even the alignment rules for the avenger fit in nicely! Where a paladin must be of the same alignment as their god, thus forcing lawful good paladins to be lawful good, inquisitors to a lawful good god can still be unaligned. This is because, like fantasy inquisitors, they believe that their end justifies the means. They are willing to do very evil things in order to attain what they believe to be a higher good. The only thing the avenger is missing in order to be able to fit this archetype is the insight skill, which even happens to work off their primary stat!
I just really feel insight should have been a class skill for avengers.
If you refer to warhammer, I agree. But I think they had to think about how the Avenger could have fitted among the other divine classes, and I think they concluded that giving Insight to it would have been like steeping too much onto paladins and clerics, who are (more or less arguably) a little more pacifist in tone. I think we are in a territory akin to Rogue vs Ranger: the differences are subtle, the city vs wild theme is a thin line and both can be thieves. I don't know.
I guess it's still easy enough to make an inquisitor the way you describe it, it's just a matter of taking Soldier of the Faith and choose Insight, you also get the nifty Divine Challenge, or simply Skill Training. I know you'll say it's far from being optimal, but I think there was probably a good reason for the devs to not include Insight in the class list. You could always ask your master to substitute two of the class skills with Insight and then take it, maybe coupled with a not so optimal skill from the list, to balance things and represnt your kind of special training.
However again in my opinion, avengers come into play when understanding the truth is irrelevant, I see them as the "last resource". Plus, their mental/fighting training could be incompatible with an inquisitive way of thinking, being too full of hate, and thus self-centered.
Another thought: a true inquisitor/inquisitive avenger would be a little out of the norm, since it would mean that he/she decided to do his/herself the work that the church or sect should have done instead. They would be "independent avengers" who judge and execute at the same time (Sly Stallone suddenly came to my mind :D), while normally they are just executors (read executioners...). So it really suggests a little multiclassing and/or simple skill training.
If you refer to warhammer, I agree. But I think they had to think about how the Avenger could have fitted among the other divine classes, and I think they concluded that giving Insight to it would have been like steeping too much onto paladins and clerics, who are (more or less arguably) a little more pacifist in tone. I think we are in a territory akin to Rogue vs Ranger: the differences are subtle, the city vs wild theme is a thin line and both can be thieves. I don't know.
I guess it's still easy enough to make an inquisitor the way you describe it, it's just a matter of taking Soldier of the Faith and choose Insight, you also get the nifty Divine Challenge, or simply Skill Training. I know you'll say it's far from being optimal, but I think there was probably a good reason for the devs to not include Insight in the class list. You could always ask your master to substitute two of the class skills with Insight and then take it, maybe coupled with a not so optimal skill from the list, to balance things and represnt your kind of special training.
However again in my opinion, avengers come into play when understanding the truth is irrelevant, I see them as the "last resource". Plus, their mental/fighting training could be incompatible with an inquisitive way of thinking, being too full of hate, and thus self-centered.
Another thought: a true inquisitor/inquisitive avenger would be a little out of the norm, since it would mean that he/she decided to do his/herself the work that the church or sect should have done instead. They would be "independent avengers" who judge and execute at the same time (Sly Stallone suddenly came to my mind :D), while normally they are just executors (read executioners...). So it really suggests a little multiclassing and/or simple skill training.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I see avengers as usually operating outside the jurisdiction of the rest of the church. They both find, hunt down, judge, and then execute "evil," sometimes within their own church. I think this sort of task is completely compatible with the level of hate an avenger must feel. Indeed, I think hate would be a requirement. Without hate, I doubt a figure could find the motivation necessary to keep doing what must be done.
But, if it doesn't get edited, or added to their skill list with errata, then I guess my players will just have to multiclass/take skill training. Likewise, if I ever get lucky enough to play my avenger of the silver flame in someone elses Eberron campaign, I guess I will have to do the same.
I still say Avengers are most like the real world Assassins of the Crusades era, if you can get past the dagger/small weapon wielding aspect.
Given their universal value it's more a question of "okay, who doesn't get Insight/Perception on their class list?"
But, if it doesn't get edited, or added to their skill list with errata, then I guess my players will just have to multiclass/take skill training. Likewise, if I ever get lucky enough to play my avenger of the silver flame in someone elses Eberron campaign, I guess I will have to do the same.
Ooh, I would rather enjoy having an Avenger of the Silver Flame in my Eberron game, though the groups Paladin of the Silver Flame might not. He's already had to endure more then his fare share of crises of faith, due in no small part to the antics of his allies who have included a demon worshiping Warlock, a wizard who summons demons, and a Karnathi Bone Knight (I'd love to go into the details, but this is not the thread for it
). Someone of his own faith that employed morally questionable practices would add a whole new twist to his suffering. 
To bad the group is full and we probably live no where near each other anyway.Anyway, back onto the subject at hand. I will chime in on the side that says the avenger doesn't need insight. A lone Avenger functioning as a church sanctioned assassin probably has pre-assigned targets. What whether they are guilty or not, or even what they are accused of, need not concern him. His duty and faith demand that the infidel must die.
The lone Avenger is however irrelevant. D&D is a team game. Which means the typical PC Avenger will operate in a group dynamic were it can be the concern of others to handle the incite checks.
Edit: Also I find the following to be a great and flavorful point.
Perhaps Avengers aren't trained in Insight because this could breed empathy. One thing an Avenger can't allow is empathy. It would totally interfere with the righteous, unwavering justice he is compelled to bring down upon his enemies.
An Avenger would thus require neither Insight nor instruction from other mortals. Such an individual needs only to know the will of their patron god in order to judge who is fit to live and die.
An Avenger would thus require neither Insight nor instruction from other mortals. Such an individual needs only to know the will of their patron god in order to judge who is fit to live and die.
Seems like such an avenger would put even the most over zealous paladin to shame when it comes to religious fanaticism. An individual on a personal crusade claiming (true or not) to have a direct line to their god that tells them to punish the "guilty". Scary stuff.
I am thinking about an avenger who "hears" the voice of his deity telling him what to do and whom to slay. He doesn't need to think about anything, he just executes what the voice in his head tells him.
That sounds like a visionary serial killer. :D
since the topic is going in this direction, what would an avenger of tempus be motivated by? would he just go around picking fights, or would he most likely be the general of a batalion?
He seeks people stronger then him to prove he is the best, think Highlander...
*lightning crackles*
*Queen starts singing*
There can be only one (Avenger of Tempus)!
*lightning crackles*
*Queen starts singing*
Did they make a 4th one…The Roundening?
Did they make a 4th one…The Roundening?
No, I am pretty sure that is just what started to happen to the bellies of the actors who played in those movies/TV series after those movies/TV series caused their careers to nose dive, and they could no longer afford to eat anything but McDonald's... :P
since the topic is going in this direction, what would an avenger of tempus be motivated by? would he just go around picking fights, or would he most likely be the general of a batalion?
I was thinking about an avenger of Tempus. My idea is that he was a homeless orphan child living on the streets until he was taken/abducted by a heretical sect of Tempus training young children in their secret monastery to become the perfect weapons.
Unfortunately for the children the training consist of first brutally breaking them to rebuild them from the ground (think about the training the young spartian boys have to go through in 300, just even more brutal). At the end the recruits either develop an unique link to Tempus, make their personal vows and are ready to leave the monastery to execute Tempus wishes or perish from the brutal training.
The personality would be a mix of River from Firefly and Silas from The DaVinci Code. That is socially unadept, not understanding how society works (nor caring) and thus not interested in any worldly rewards. An emotional wrack constandly tensed and paranoid except for the short times he is in combat when he becomes frightenly calm and seems entirely at peace while slaying his target (pointed out for him by the voice of Tempus in his head).
He would have a love-hate relationship with any cleric/paladin of Tempus, seeing them as family but knowing that they would see him as a heretic if they know what he is. He would only confess to Invokers, as they also have directly been granted their powers by Tempus himself (and not through worldly clergy like paladins and clerics)
I was thinking about an avenger of Tempus. My idea is that he was a homeless orphan child living on the streets until he was taken/abducted by a heretical sect of Tempus training young children in their secret monastery to become the perfect weapons.
Unfortunately for the children the training consist of first brutally breaking them to rebuild them from the ground (think about the training the young spartian boys have to go through in 300, just even more brutal). At the end the recruits either develop an unique link to Tempus, make their personal vows and are ready to leave the monastery to execute Tempus wishes or perish from the brutal training.
The personality would be a mix of River from Firefly and Silas from The DaVinci Code. That is socially unadept, not understanding how society works (nor caring) and thus not interested in any worldly rewards. An emotional wrack constandly tensed and paranoid except for the short times he is in combat when he becomes frightenly calm and seems entirely at peace while slaying his target (pointed out for him by the voice of Tempus in his head).
He would have a love-hate relationship with any cleric/paladin of Tempus, seeing them as family but knowing that they would see him as a heretic if they know what he is. He would only confess to Invokers, as they also have directly been granted their powers by Tempus himself (and not through worldly clergy like paladins and clerics)
Nice. :P I was actually thinking something similar, but for mine I was thinking along the lines that the orphan children are taken in after their families are murdered. They are then offered a chance for Vengeance, and if they accept they are trained as Avengers.
Although in my head the Church of Tempus are the ones that murder the childrens' family in the first place in order to get gifted children, but hey what the kids don't know won't hurt them. Right?
He would have a love-hate relationship with any cleric/paladin of Tempus, seeing them as family but knowing that they would see him as a heretic if they know what he is. He would only confess to Invokers, as they also have directly been granted their powers by Tempus himself (and not through worldly clergy like paladins and clerics)
For the record, Avengers are not granted their divine power like Invokers (which is not to say that I have an issue with someone player a character who believes that they do gain their powers directly from their god). According to their RAW fluff Avengers are granted divine powers like paladins and clerics. It is one of the reasons that I find the "they don't need insight because they directly commune with their god" arguments to be inapplicable. They don't directly commune with their god. They need some sort of method to pick their targets. And most of them, according to the fluff, work outside the jurisdiction of their established church. They don't have anyone to tell them who their targets should be... they need to figure that out for themselves.
For the record, Avengers are not granted their divine power like Invokers (which is not to say that I have an issue with someone player a character who believes that they do gain their powers directly from their god). According to their RAW fluff Avengers are granted divine powers like paladins and clerics. It is one of the reasons that I find the "they don't need insight because they directly commune with their god" arguments to be inapplicable. They don't directly commune with their god. They need some sort of method to pick their targets. And most of them, according to the fluff, work outside the jurisdiction of their established church. They don't have anyone to tell them who their targets should be... they need to figure that out for themselves.
I was going to say it myself, the fluff talks about an initiation in which "maybe" a semblance of the god manifests itself, nothing sure, but however an initiation ritual.
But.
You forgot that this is done outside the regular church, but inside a monastery, a detached sect, that clearly has an organization (who performs the initiation of the new avengers? clearly more powerful avengers). And I never said that they know who to kill because of the voice of their god inside their heads (although I believe that because of their training, they surely perceive such compulsions), I said their order gave them targets. Their training. Like somebody said, a religion check is sufficient to know foes, because you will know your deities dogmas and wishes, and enemies.
There is clear mention in the examples, in the fluff, of avengers "rebelling" to this and going their own way, but otherwise, they're part of a secretive orders, they are cultists.
And cultists are not people with lots of insight at all.
EDIT: I believe the framework for a D&D church is, in more real life terms, this:
"Insiders" or official
- Clerics: the missionaries and spiritual guides, also the most detached (see alignment rules)
- Paladins: exemplars who take lives of the faithful as their personal responsibility
"Outsiders" or officious
- Invokers: the ones who actually do miracles, pre-saints or exorcists, viewed with suspect but also awe by officials.
- Avengers: the unrecognized sect of zealots (or the official assassins, kept hidden, if talking about a more violent deity's church), despised (or kept hidden by denying existence and/or affiliation) by the officials.
I was going to say it myself, the fluff talks about an initiation in which "maybe" a semblance of the god manifests itself, nothing sure, but however an initiation ritual.
But.
You forgot that this is done outside the regular church, but inside a monastery, a detached sect, that clearly has an organization (who performs the initiation of the new avengers? clearly more powerful avengers). And I never said that they know who to kill because of the voice of their god inside their heads (although I believe that because of their training, they surely perceive such compulsions), I said their order gave them targets. Their training. Like somebody said, a religion check is sufficient to know foes, because you will know your deities dogmas and wishes, and enemies.
There is clear mention in the examples, in the fluff, of avengers "rebelling" to this and going their own way, but otherwise, they're part of a secretive orders, they are cultists.
And cultists are not people with lots of insight at all.
If the higher members of the avengers monastery are avengers, and no avenger has insight, then how do any of them manage to pick out targets? And, if its just based on a religion check, then how do any of them pick out a target that hides amongst a larger populous? Not every enemy of a god is going to wear a giant sign that says "I am an enemy of the god." The most insidious enemies are those who try, and usually succeed, to obfuscate their presence.
If the avenger gets perception, I certainly think that its social twin, insight, is fairly applicable to the classes skill set.
I think that it is important to note that Avengers do not serve religious organizations, but are directly motivated by their patron deities. All one needs in order to distinguish an enemy of one's god from the rest is to be trained in Religion (and, perhaps, have the Avenger's background of having been taught secret dogmatic lore.)
An Avenger would thus require neither Insight nor instruction from other mortals. Such an individual needs only to know the will of their patron god in order to judge who is fit to live and die.
I have to disagree, cross-posted from another thread:
In secret temples far from bustling cities and priestly hierarchies orders of esoteric warriors train their initiates in ancient traditions now forgotten or forbidden by [can't read] religious organizations. The champions of these orders are avengers - deadly weapons in the hands of their gods. Imbued with divine power through secret rites of initiation. In battle avengers swear to execute divine vengeance, entering a mental state that gives them unverving focus on a single enemy.
As an avenger you were trained in a monastery, initiated through secret rites and imbued with divine power to smite your gods fos. You might be a disciple of Ioun, sworn to hunt and exterminate the minions of Vecna until one day you face the maimed god. You could be an agent of the Raven Queen, bringing death to those who would defy your mistress. Or perhaps you save Bahamut as an agent of justice, bringing ruin to tyrants and oppressors. The organization devoted to your god might view you as an heretic or a hero, but you answer only to your god and to the vows you swore upon your initiation to an avenger.
Where will those vows lead you? One thing is certain: Doing the will of your god is never easy and never free of peril.
more info : http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1147127
I believe this was transcribed from a photo of the PHB2 Avenger section taken at a recent con.
So, they do serve religious institutions, just not the normal ones. The secret ones. They are not in the direct service of their deity although they may believe so.
If the higher members of the avengers monastery are avengers, and no avenger has insight, then how do any of them manage to pick out targets? And, if its just based on a religion check, then how do any of them pick out a target that hides amongst a larger populous? Not every enemy of a god is going to wear a giant sign that says "I am an enemy of the god." The most insidious enemies are those who try, and usually succeed, to obfuscate their presence.
If the avenger gets perception, I certainly think that its social twin, insight, is fairly applicable to the classes skill set.
Simple answer, they're crazy people. They don't select targets carefully. Do you see Muslim extremist groups killing only enemies? When you're an extremist (because an avenger, regardless of the faith, simply kills, which is an extreme), you don't have insight.
Plus, they are very mystical warriors who can hit with Wisdom... It means they spent a lot of time training to enter a mental state of combat focus, which simply doesn't allow them to also be insightful. The problem is identifying them with Inquisitors and Witch Hunters. The ones who studied their deity profoundly and then seek destruction of its true enemie are Invokers, not Avengers. Avengers are ordained, and what they do with their powers is up to them (textually), so they simply wield divine power centered on killing, they're more like historical dervishes.
As you can see, the Invoker gets Insight and not Perception. Paladins get Insight and not Perception (they are exemplars of the god, they can't mistake targets), and Clerics too get Insight and not Perception. This clearly states what I was telling you, that the Avengers are despised by members of the church (Invokers, i see them as members of the church, but different, special, and thus a little detached) because they are fanatic killers, who generally kill only by quick friend-foe criteria.
Of course though, here we are talking about the standard plain first level Avenger. Avengers who go by their own and want to kill the right enemies, simply train in insight. (EDIT) So to answer that avenger-hierarchy thing, the avenger master, being a master, very probably has insight.
Another thought: Avenger is one who searches for vengeance, and vengeance is not justice, but personal satisfaction (or so is a line of Rachel Dows in Batman Begins... Duh...), and in this case (presumed, wished) personal satisfaction of the god. The ones killed by avengers are more sacrificial victims than hunted enemies. Avenger want to praise their god killing in its name, that's all.
Of course, this again for standard, I'd even say NPC avengers... PC avengers typically preferred to make other more ethical use of their powers.
Simple answer, they're crazy people. They don't select targets carefully. Do you see Muslim extremist groups killing only enemies?
I just tried to write a response to this line. Every time I tried I failed. I didn't fail because I agree with you, or because I can't formulate a counter argument. I failed because I can't comment on this line without talking about real world politics, and because some of what I have to say might offend. I am just going to leave this one alone. I don't want to touch it, not even with a ten foot pole.
When you're an extremist (because an avenger, regardless of the faith, simply kills, which is an extreme), you don't have insight.
I don't agree. I think that many extremists are actually very insightful. Their particular form of insight is twisted, extreme, but that does not mean that it is not insightful. Extremism is the process of taking a moderate set of statements, extending it to its extreme logical conclusion, and then acting upon that conclusion. Whatever else that might require, it certainly requires a fair amount of insight.
Plus, they are very mystical warriors who can hit with Wisdom... It means they spent a lot of time training to enter a mental state of combat focus, which simply doesn't allow them to also be insightful.
But this does not in any shape or form indicate that they are not insightful...
The problem is identifying them with Inquisitors and Witch Hunters.
But I don't think that is a problem at all. Both Inquisitors and Witch Hunters are a form of extremist. And avengers perfectly fit their bill, minus the presence of one single skill on their skill list. Hence my complaint. An avenger perfectly fits this bill, except that its missing one skill. Seems to me that it should have that one skill and be done with it.
The ones who studied their deity profoundly and then seek destruction of its true enemies are Invokers, not Avengers. Avengers are ordained, and what they do with their powers is up to them (textually), so they simply wield divine power centered on killing, they're more like historical dervishes.
And I really don't get that from their fluff text. I certainly get that killing is a large part of what they center their power on, but it seems to me that their fluff text also indicates that they not only center it on killing but also on hunting, on searching, for those that need to be killed. They get perception to do as much. But they get no skill with which to pursue, hunt, and find a query in a more civilized/social setting. Seems a little silly to me. I think Intimidate and Insight would be this classes prime two social skills of choice in any given social encounter. Scaring those around them, and using insight to appropriately judge those around them in order to decide upon a target. Without this skill, how do they choose a target within a social setting?
As you can see, the Invoker gets Insight and not Perception. Paladins get Insight and not Perception (they are exemplars of the god, they can't mistake targets), and Clerics too get Insight and not Perception. This clearly states what I was telling you, that the Avengers are despised by members of the church (Invokers, i see them as members of the church, but different, special, and thus a little detached) because they are fanatic killers, who generally kill only by quick friend-foe criteria.
I don't see how the lack of an insight skill indicates that they are despised by any given church (though their fluff text certainly indicates that many religious orders to not publicly condone such organizations), nor do I see why they would not still be hated by any given church even if they did possess the insight skill. I don't follow your logic.
Another thought: Avenger is one who searches for vengeance, and vengeance is not justice, but personal satisfaction (or so is a line of Rachel Dows in Batman Begins... Duh...), and in this case (presumed, wished) personal satisfaction of the god. The ones killed by avengers are more sacrificial victims than hunted enemies. Avenger want to praise their god killing in its name, that's all.
In order to kill someone in the name of a god, you require the ability to decide who it is that should be killed. You require the ability to ferret out your prey.
I'm sorry, I just don't agree with you. Like I said, I can live with its absence. But I don't think its absence is logical.
And I really don't get that from their fluff text. I certainly get that killing is a large part of what they center their power on, but it seems to me that their fluff text also indicates that they not only center it on killing but also on hunting, on searching, for those that need to be killed. They get perception to do as much. But they get no skill with which to pursue, hunt, and find a query in a more civilized/social setting. Seems a little silly to me. I think Intimidate and Insight would be this classes prime two social skills of choice in any given social encounter. Scaring those around them, and using insight to appropriately judge those around them in order to decide upon a target. Without this skill, how do they choose a target within a social setting?
Streetwise.
I don't see how the lack of an insight skill indicates that they are despised by any given church (though their fluff text certainly indicates that many religious orders to not publicly condone such organizations), nor do I see why they would not still be hated by any given church even if they did possess the insight skill. I don't follow your logic.
Their lack of insight, I was saying, makes them the only divine class without it, accentuating the fact that they're differrent, The fluff says that they can be considered even heretics. The skill thing was only an example, to discuss about how they're lack of insight makes them special among divine.
In order to kill someone in the name of a god, you require the ability to decide who it is that should be killed. You require the ability to ferret out your prey.
Streetwise and Religion
Ok, I'll buy it.
P.S. You just did the impossible. This is the first time in a long time that someone has convinced me that my original opinion was wrong.
P.S. You just did the impossible. This is the first time in a long time that someone has convinced me that my original opinion was wrong.
..This is the first time I've actually seen this happen on... well, any forum. Bravo sir, for having the maturity to admit you may have been wrong. *claps and hands you a cookie*
Plus, they are very mystical warriors who can hit with Wisdom... It means they spent a lot of time training to enter a mental state of combat focus, which simply doesn't allow them to also be insightful.
But this does not in any shape or form indicate that they are not insightful...
But it does mean that since avengers will likely have high wisdom score (16+ base, boosted every opportunity) they will likely be reasonably insightful, training or not.
While the issue of avengers and insight seem to be resolving nicely, I have one minor point to add.
But it does mean that since avengers will likely have high wisdom score (16+ base, boosted every opportunity) they will likely be reasonably insightful, training or not.
And they can...gods forbid, gain training in Insight.
I have to disagree, cross-posted from another thread:
I believe this was transcribed from a photo of the PHB2 Avenger section taken at a recent con.
Actually I was the one who copied it from the little picture (that was before I discovered that I could have also simply clicked to see a high-res picture which you can clearly read without any difficulty at all
).Yet the second page talks about the initiation ritual culminating in a manifestation fo the deity
Extremism is the process of taking a moderate set of statements, extending it to its extreme logical conclusion, and then acting upon that conclusion. Whatever else that might require, it certainly requires a fair amount of insight.
Or it could require a spectacluary failed insight check to arrice at such an missinterpretation of the intend
Anyway, I posted my idea for an avenger here
I suppose. I can see the logic behind an argument that Avenger use streetwise and religion instead of insight because, like the inquisitors I feel they are modeled after, they never really "know" if their target is guilty or not. They use knowledge gathered from the streets around them, as well as their religious doctrine, to predetermine that someone is guilty. Then they seek out and hunt down this target, and torture a confession out of them (whether they are guilty or not). Attempts to resist torture are seen as an admission of guilt. And torture does not end until the target dies during the process, or admits to their own guilt in order to end its pain. In either case, the Avenger really never discovers the truth of a creatures nature. He walks in with a predisposed judgment and in effect acts upon that judgment. Religion and Streetwise are used to find a target, and that target is considered guilty even when someone with a decent insight should be able to realize that they are not... And while they do not easily start out with training in insight, their high wisdom and level bonus still allow them to use it with fairly decent results. On the other hand, less fanatic elements of the church actually pay attention to their insight, and thus tend to be less extreme. They hunt down enemies of the church, but unlike the inquisition they tend to realize when their first suspect is not actually guilty. They don't walk in with a predetermined judgement of guilt. They are more careful not to harm those who are not truly enemies of their church (instead of perceived enemies). They are not ok with taking out every perceived enemy, because the ends do not justify the means (for them).
Ok, I'll buy it.
P.S. You just did the impossible. This is the first time in a long time that someone has convinced me that my original opinion was wrong.
And by this you convinced me that they can be true inquisitors, going to the rumored den of the "heretics" and killing them one by one, even if in that place at that time there was just a meeting of friends having dinner and the only heretic among them was in the toilet at that moment (he sure stayed quite long in that toilet even after the death screams had ended..! :D)...
Actually, citation/consideration of streetwise in their repertory was the point of contact... We had both overlooked it, I guess! At least I had overlooked it. And when I saw it, I was nearly sure it was going to change our points of view!
P.S. I'm honored... But I was not trying to be zealous in the process, me has Insight, I found that you were an ally..! ;)
And... Why everyone in this forum thinks that avengers are crazy serial killers?
It appears that everyone is thinking that the avengers are heroes that are allowed to do evil things. Good is good, evil is evil, and unaligned is neither. An unaligned avenger of bahamut can't enter in a room killing everybody because one evil person is in there, because this is being evil and not unaligned. If you kill without knowing for sure if the person you are killing is an enemy of your faith (killing an innocent of your divine war) makes you evil (unless you already are from an evil faith, which focus to kill innocents). Don't forget (or confound yourselves): Fanatic suicidal terrorists (like in the real world) are not unaligned, they're evil.
Avengers are very wise, so they have a lot of common sense. Craziness is for low wisdom characters (like warlocks, sorcerers). IMO the paladins (especially the low wisdom ones) are much more susceptible to the single-minded fanatical stereotype than the avengers.
Who Avengers of Sehanine trained to strike? Who are his enemies? Are his personal enemies Sehanine's enemies too?
And... Why everyone in this forum thinks that avengers are crazy serial killers?
It appears that everyone is thinking that the avengers are heroes that are allowed to do evil things. Good is good, evil is evil, and unaligned is neither. An unaligned avenger of bahamut can't enter in a room killing everybody because one evil person is in there, because this is being evil and not unaligned. If you kill without knowing for sure if the person you are killing is an enemy of your faith (killing an innocent of your divine war) makes you evil (unless you already are from an evil faith, which focus to kill innocents). Don't forget (or confound yourselves): Fanatic suicidal terrorists (like in the real world) are not unaligned, they're evil.
Avengers are very wise, so they have a lot of common sense. Craziness is for low wisdom characters (like warlocks, sorcerers). IMO the paladins (especially the low wisdom ones) are much more susceptible to the single-minded fanatical stereotype than the avengers.
It was just an example pointing out a case of mission done by using Streetwise, no Insight, and many attacks... ;) nothing serious.
When I talked about them being crazy I intended that they are those kind of killers who believe they're killing for a greater good and do so with extreme dedication, but not that they are crazy in the sense of wild and stupid killing machines.
By the way they must be of their god's alignment, no unaligned avenger of bahamut. An avenger of bahamut is, like the fluff tells, much more likely to only kill wrong-doers and be a justice-vigilante, with a strict code.
After all re-reading another time the fluff I saw the mention of they having taken vows, particular for each cult I assume, so one has really a lot of freedom in choosing how and why his avenger does what it does, we were just focusing on the aspect of skill usage for ethics in target selection.
It's good however that you and some others remembered their high Wisdom, which is actually a not so common characteristic even in divine characters (only invokers and ranged clerics match them).
And I think that as one already mentioned, they can be very close as character concepts to martial/ki monks: nearly same abilities (at least the dex build), same role, same type of hard training and a special "mental state" (I thought I had invented the thing, but I had actually read it in avenger's fluff). I'm not saying their similar, but that for example when it comes to abilities and general wide traits of personality, they could share a lot, of course adapting everything to their divine power source. So yes, they're not crazy in some sense, but you know, Wisdom in D&D does not have the same meaning it has in English... Not to do the smart-ass, but really, I can come up with many examples of high Wis stat types who can at least look crazy. Especially when they lack Intelligence and/or Charisma. Think about the dwarf druid in one of the latest (not so much) Drizzt novels ("The Hundred Orcs" or "The Thousand Orcs"? don't remember), always being called by his brother "blasted fool" and speaking in something similar to child-talk...
However, let's not get off-topic, I agree with what you said, I just wanted to point out what I meant when I said they were crazy. And that when I referred to them as extreme killers, it was much more because of the context of the particular discussion about the skills: in the end it depends on the deity.
And yeah, an avenger of Sehanine really strikes as odd. I guess I could envision a spirited, very young (in his/her spirit) life-lover, who kills those who go against the ideals of love. I prefer the idea of Paladin of Sehanine, defending love and freedom, but again, not all deities have avengers, and Sehanine may be one of those that don't have many, allowing/having them only for the sake of freedom of choice and paths in life...
An original type of Avenger I would like to play would be... [oh my GOD, I had to force a reboot with this message not posted yet and Firefox restored the session with this message written till here, Firefox is divine...] Erathis? Being an unaligned bringer of law and order is appealing..... But in an evil campaign I would bring out the best of an avenger of TOROG, capturing inherently free and fair beings like fey for my god's love of restriction and imprisonment! :D I'd make it Shadar-Kai and use the new feats for Spiked Chain...
And yet we consider Batman to be noble. ;) Personally, I think Avengers fit the character archetype of Batman quite well, so that provides a useful model of a personality to use.
By the way they must be of their god's alignment, no unaligned avenger of bahamut. An avenger of bahamut is, like the fluff tells, much more likely to only kill wrong-doers and be a justice-vigilante, with a strict code.
The page that got posted from the PHB 2 with the Avenger class features said that an unaligned Avenger can worship any Deity since they have become disillusioned with their work. So, you could always start your guy out aligned to your god and then as you level, shift your alignment. You could just as easily put the reason you do not match your god into your backstory. After the Bane article I thought of an Avenger who interprets Bane's teaching to mean you should meet your enemies face to face in battle and build my PC towards attacking only ranged enemies and justifying it as destroying the faceless violence that ranged attacks bring upon their targets. It also said Bane seeks order and is the god of the rule of law, so you just have your Avenger slay those who would seek to cause chaos and undo the progress of Bane's ideals.
PHB2 excerpt: "However, if you are unaligned, you can serve any deity, for avengers' work often leads to a level of disillusionment and detachment that prompts them to be unaligned."
Didn't want to sound like a jerk or anything just wanted to point out that they came up with a pretty flavorful reason for you to not match your deity's alignment.
Cheers
I'd make it Shadar-Kai and use the new feats for Spiked Chain...
just remember the multiclass spiked chain mastery feat is for martial classes only :3
Also, could somebody tell me how the half-orc avenger has 20 AC? i'm tryin got figure it out but no luck....
base = 10
1/2 level = 1
+1 leather = 2
armor of faith = 3
16 dexterity = 3
total = 19
just remember the multiclass spiked chain mastery feat is for martial classes only :3
Yeah, I had noticed...
Cruickid, I hadn't read that bit, and it's a good one.
P.S.: While searching for Avenger/Ranger combos I noticed that drow with their Drow Wanderer paragon path are not only the BEST fit, but also are the best secondary class Rangers around by a long shot when they take Drow Wanderer PP... I'll just say that once a day they not only can surpass the multiclass two turns limit on Hunter's Quarry, but they can do it with multiple enemies at once. Check Martial Power drow+ranger feats, andd then think about the interaction with the 20th level Drow Wanderer power... It's practically broken, but at least it's once a day only. I say perfect for the Avenger, and any other striker.
Oh and the 16th level feat also combines with another feat in MP to transform Darkfire in a lethal weapon... Damage through the roof.
.
And yeah, an avenger of Sehanine really strikes as odd. I guess I could envision a spirited, very young (in his/her spirit) life-lover, who kills those who go against the ideals of love. I prefer the idea of Paladin of Sehanine, defending love and freedom, but again, not all deities have avengers, and Sehanine may be one of those that don't have many, allowing/having them only for the sake of freedom of choice and paths in life...
An avenger can definitely follow Sehanine especially with the 3.5 lore. Sehanine was a foe to anything Lolth did and anything regarding undead. She was also very protective of the Elven people. So she can easily have avengers to avenge wrong doings against the elven people.
No, I am pretty sure that is just what started to happen to the bellies of the actors who played in those movies/TV series after those movies/TV series caused their careers to nose dive, and they could no longer afford to eat anything but McDonald's... :P
Nice, yeah, male actors often seem to get heavier the more successful they get, while the chicks often go the opposite direction.
I keep forgetting cause I always think cloth armor is +1 but it's not unless masterwork >_< cloth needs that +1 at 1st level dangit X_X
By the way they must be of their god's alignment, no unaligned avenger of bahamut.
PHB2 excerpt: "However, if you are unaligned, you can serve any deity, for avengers' work often leads to a level of disillusionment and detachment that prompts them to be unaligned."
And yeah, an avenger of Sehanine really strikes as odd. I guess I could envision a spirited, very young (in his/her spirit) life-lover, who kills those who go against the ideals of love. I prefer the idea of Paladin of Sehanine, defending love and freedom, but again, not all deities have avengers, and Sehanine may be one of those that don't have many, allowing/having them only for the sake of freedom of choice and paths in life...
An original type of Avenger I would like to play would be... [oh my GOD, I had to force a reboot with this message not posted yet and Firefox restored the session with this message written till here, Firefox is divine...] Erathis? Being an unaligned bringer of law and order is appealing.....
PHB2 excerpt: "Religion: An avenger might serve any deity, but an avenger is more likely to worship an unaligned deity than a god of good or lawful good. Avengers of Ioun are among the most common, fighting a war of knowledge against the servants of Vecna. Unaligned avengers often revere the Raven Queen, Erathis, or Sehanine, and evil avengers often revere Asmodeus, Lolth, Tiamat, or Zehir."
Avengers of Ioun, Raven Queen, Erathis, and Sehanine are the most common.
-Trickery and Illusion: Methods to near to your prey
-Shadows: Pretty obvious connection
Specifically for Avengers. I could see some hunting down those who have betrayed some secret (specifically like secret lovers), or hunting down those who are trying to stop someone's love.
Nice, yeah, male actors often seem to get heavier the more successful they get, while the chicks often go the opposite direction.
Actually, I was saying that as those movies/series didn't really lead to anyone becoming successful, and all they could afford was McDonald's (due to their lack of success), which is both notoriously cheap and unhealthy, the actors in question became heavier. :P
Maybe the different "censure," builds excel at targeting and eliminating different classes of enemies. Censure of Pursuit Avengers excel at taking out ranged combatants (some strikers, some leaders, some controllers), while Censure of Retribution Avengers focus on eliminating defender-ish combatants (brutes, soldiers) thus opening the way to the squishies behind them. (?)
I think that's a good point about pursuing avengers going after the ranged types who don't want you standing next to them. This does mean however that you will need to invest in your strength to make those OA worthwhile (although your oath compensates a somewhat lower score nicely). A nice bonus for investing in your strength is that it opens up power attack!
A way of making the censure of pursuit relevant for non ranged types is by working together with your defender, e.g. an assault swordmage might mark your target so that the target has the choice of walking towards him (giving you the extra damage on your next turn) or attacking you (so that the swordmage gets a free attack on the target).
I could very easily see this being a very easy to flesh out concept for most races.
What i'm really interested in actually is what would be the best weapon for a Hafling Avenger?
also I think they will expect you to invest in HBO if you want good OAs. there will be a CHA power before a wisdom power IMO since paladin's need it more.
I wonder if it will only be for the avenger or if now all classes will get a similar feat in PHB2.
also I think they will expect you to invest in HBO if you want good OAs. there will be a CHA power before a wisdom power IMO since paladin's need it more.
That would mean Int Avengers would have to spend to Dex 15. That's worse than spending in Str, as Int and Dex do the same things save initiative. If you're going to spend in stats that do the similar things, you need the effects to be extremely good. Dex Avengers, like you said, should just take HBO.
A feat is the easiest solution. It is very possible that the feat we see allows you to use your primary stat for your melee basic attacks, thus covering Paladin, Avenger, and all other classes (present and future) that might want a decent OA.
EDIT: BAH! ninja'ed
That would mean Int Avengers would have to spend to Dex 15. That's worse than spending in Str, as Int and Dex do the same things save initiative. If you're going to spend in stats that do the similar things, you need the effects to be extremely good. Dex Avengers, like you said, should just take HBO.
INT avengers would however have the option of mluticlassing into swordmage for Intelligent Blademaster.
A feat is the easiest solution. It is very possible that the feat we see allows you to use your primary stat for your melee basic attacks, thus covering Paladin, Avenger, and all other classes (present and future) that might want a decent OA.
This is an even better idea as it covers all present and future classes.
INT avengers would however have the option of mluticlassing into swordmage for Intelligent Blademaster.
That is a good point. However, pigeon holing Int Avengers to take Swordmage MC and Intelligent Blademaster just to get a good OA is bad news. Why should that be the only option for Int Avengers?
(rhetorical question as you agree that a catch all feat for primary stat basic attacks would be a good thing.)
Assuming the feat in question will exist, it's called Melee Training. That generic name does imply to me that it will be a catch all type effect.
In any case, I haven't seen this example avenger people are talking about. Does anyone know where it can actually be found?
I do have to wonder if Melee Training wouldn't make Intelligent Blademaster obsolete, if Intelligence is one of the stats that can be wired to it.
In any case, I haven't seen this example avenger people are talking about. Does anyone know where it can actually be found?
Use the links in Post #1 of this thread. I'd check out the full article, since you haven't yet read it.
A little over halfway into the article are links to pictures of all the pregen character sheets. The PHBII pictures are also linkee within the article, if I remember correctly.
People's History: Cool
Aegis Insight: the PP downside
Teleportation Action: PERFECT, AWESOME
Learn from Experience: WHOOOO, the best
Four corners attack: add stickiness to the avenger
Arcane Tanglestep: best power to isolate !!!! [encounter power !!
]Heritage of Blades: 2d6+wisdom as minor no need rolling... and +1 AC & RF to your allies [daily stance]
MC Swordmage all the way (and we haven't seeing arcane power yet)
Use the links in Post #1 of this thread. I'd check out the full article, since you haven't yet read it.
A little over halfway into the article are links to pictures of all the pregen character sheets. The PHBII pictures are also linkee within the article, if I remember correctly.
Actually, I probably should have been more specific. I was wondering about this paragon-level avenger I've heard snippets about, the one with that supposed Melee Training feat.
Another interpretation for melee training is that for any class they can use their Dex for melee basic attacks. Seeing how the Dex is the same as her wisdom this is very possible.
Ohhh. Yes, that sounds quite likely--I'd heard that there was a feat to allow Dexterity for basic attacks coming down the pipe.
Another interpretation for melee training is that for any class they can use their Dex for melee basic attacks. Seeing how the Dex is the same as her wisdom this is very possible.
Ohhh. Yes, that sounds quite likely--I'd heard that there was a feat to allow Dexterity for basic attacks coming down the pipe.
Maybe, but why create an entirely new feat name when one could just use the old DEX for attack name, "Weapon Finesse"? Nothing about the name "Melee Training" suggests any particular stat. Seems to me that if it is an alternate stat feat for melee basic attacks it's likely a choose any one stat feat. That would work best as it should cover all present and future melee classes that don't have strength as a key ability score.
This stuff will become apparent really fast when you play the class. But here it is in writing for now.
Lets say that this is the map. A means avenger, O means oath enemy, M means other monster.
I've noticed several inferences to both Altair, and Batman. In Assassin's Creed, you search not just for the location of the one you have been sent to kill, but for the proof that he needs to die, searching out clues, stealing messages between informants and brokers, and speaking with those they have wronged. Batman breaks into their warehouses and assesses the breadth and scope of their operations, finds the evidence that lies can't explain away, and turns over the rocks to watch what scurries away to darker places.
So when these two archetypal figures confront their foes, they don't waste time asking questions they know they'll never get straight answers to; they met out justice, by means that fit each man's moral code.
That's why the Avenger doesn't get Insight: He finds the truth through alternate, infallible means, not bothering with questions when the truth will out.
That and putting one's target to the question inevitably lets them know that YOU. ARE. ON. TO. THEM!:P
I hold up James Bond (especially the Roger Moore films) as proof of this; and what invariably follows? Bond's target tries to kill him.
Assume avenger is on par with team so he has a 50/50 basic chance to hit, thus a 75% to hit his oath.
Analysis of 2 weapons: +3 Bloodiron dagger, +3 Jagged great axe.
- Dagger is wielded by a daggermaster for 18-20 crit range.
- Let's assume paragon for devastating critical and 1-2 war rings.
- jagged gives you 19-20 crit range, 10 ongoing(save ends) crit effect
- Bloodiron does 3d10 crit damage and all extra crit damage (bloodiron, war ring, devestating) happens again on your next turn. We'll sum up this into the total damage because it's going to happen.
- We all know that save ends damaging things deal almost double damage:
- 10 ongoing + 1/2(10 next turn) + 1/4(10 turn after) + 1/8.... ~ 20 damage total on average
- paragon high crit weapon deals 2[w] on a crit
- DPR = crit chance * crit damage + (75%-crit chance)*Non-crit damage
- Static damage = 5 wisdom + 3 magic + x[w] maximized
- I averaged crit die (d10 => 5.5)
- If pit fighter were chosen for the axe's PP, then we add in wisdom to the damage. Because it's static, it adds .75*wis = +3.75 DPR. This is significant.
----------------------------
No war rings, No devastating critical feat
- 1[w]: dagger DPR = 17.5
- 1[w]: axe DPR = 17.9
- 1[w]: axe pit fighter DPR = 21.65
- 2[w]: dagger DPR = 19.26
- 2[w]: axe DPR = 23.5
- 2[w]: axe pit fighter DPR = 27.25
- 3[w]: dagger DPR = 21.3
- 3[w]: axe DPR = 29
- 3[w]: axe DPR = 32.75
Axe pit fighter wins big
----------------------------
1 war rings, devastating critical feat
- 1[w]: dagger DPR = 23.3
- 1[w]: axe DPR = 20.2
- 1[w]: axe pit fighter DPR = 24
- 2[w]: dagger DPR = 26.4
- 2[w]: axe DPR = 25.8
- 2[w]: axe pit fighter DPR = 29.55
- 3[w]: dagger DPR = 27.4
- 3[w]: axe DPR = 31.47
- 3[w]: axe pit fighter DPR = 35
dagger competes with axe pit fighter.
----------------------------
2 war rings, devastating critical feat
- 1[w]: dagger DPR = 26.4
- 1[w]: axe DPR = 21.4
- 1[w]: axe pit fighter DPR = 25.2
- 2[w]: dagger DPR = 28.4
- 2[w]: axe DPR = 27.1
- 2[w]: axe pit fighter DPR = 30.85
- 3[w]: dagger DPR = 30.48
- 3[w]: axe DPR = 32.7
- 3[w]: axe pit fighter DPR = 36.45
dagger now gets ahead of the axe pit fighter. At the cost of having that extra war ring.
Looks like pit fighter adds a good deal of its wis to damage with the 75% to hit.
this STILL doesn't answer wether some powers will use dex as the primary attack stat since we haven't seen ANY powers that list their primary attack stats (since the character sheets don't say either, and dex and wisdom are the same score so you can't tell).
but from the looks of things it seems wisdom will be for all attacks melee or magic with dex/int as build options
makes me happy, finally Clerics have something to multiclass into that fits with their primary abiliy score.
Warlords had Ranger or soon Barbarian,
Artificers had Wizard or in some cases Warlock,
Clerics now have Avenger.
Bard has Warlock and potentially any other class.
All the Leader classes now have effective multiclass options.
The major damage from the dagger is from the Bloodiron right? Have you calculated the axe having Bloodiron as well, instead of Jagged?
It just seems to me that this test is slightly skewed in the dagger's favor.
borg285, what happens when you give the axe power attack? Or give the axe a paragon path? Also a Jagged weapon is ongoing 10 damage, not ongoing 5.
The major damage from the dagger is from the Bloodiron right? Have you calculated the axe having Bloodiron as well, instead of Jagged?
It just seems to me that this test is slightly skewed in the dagger's favor.
You should also try it with an Execution Axe rather than a Great Axe. The Brutal 2 applies not only to normal damage but to High Crit damage. I would also consider a paragon path with a relevant advantage, such as Kensei or Pitfighter.
So many cool story archs to be had. Though figuring out race ect is gonna be a pain. My gf just got into anime so i'm starting her with some simple ones like naruto. In that anime they have the concpet of hunters. Essentially if a ninja steals the secrets of thier home town the hunters track down kill and destroy all remains of the rogue ninja.
I could very easily see this being a very easy to flesh out concept for most races.
What i'm really interested in actually is what would be the best weapon for a Hafling Avenger?
also I think they will expect you to invest in HBO if you want good OAs. there will be a CHA power before a wisdom power IMO since paladin's need it more.
The best weapon for Halfling (or Gnome!) Avenger, not requiring a feat, seems to be the Broad Sword from Adventurer's Vault. If choosing a Superior Weapon (which is in my opinion important for Avengers, especially small ones who have a smaller selection of weapons), then Waraxe does higher maximum damage, Craghammer best minimum and I guess also mean damage, and Bastard Sword best accuracy and combo with HBO, but if wanting a blade, the difference in accuracy between a Broad Sword and a Bastard Sword is more acceptable for an Avenger, and thus one could stick with Broad Sword.
Note that axes can be the best thing for avengers due to their high crit with feat, but that requires a high strength so it's really a pain to build an Avenger of a small race, which doesn't have access to many High Crit weapons, with that in mind. Speaking of this, also the War Pick could be one of the best choices for small Avengers, given it's the only versatile weapon with High Crit, but it does only a d8 of damage, so don't know, if you're really an optimizer, you should do the math and see.
If I did a Gnome Avenger I would probably go for the pick heheh... Halflings however are better avengers thanks to their protection from opportunity attacks and better speed.
However, Avengers, as well as Barbarians, are really crippled if played with small races.
So here's the list of races for good Avengers...
Retribution (Int) build:
- Deva (seems to be the best)
- Genasi (best if you plan to reach some Str-requiring feat)
- Eladrin
- Longtooth Shifter
- Tiefling (could prove very good with multiclassing and Infernal Wrath enhancing feats)
Pursuit (Dex) build:
- Elf (best stats)
- Half-Orc (seems to be the best due to its racial powers)
- Drow (best if multiclass Ranger, using Martial Power feats, and going Drow Wanderer paragon path)
- Eladrin
- Razorclaw Shifter (best stats)
- Deva
P.S.: You could have noticed I love capital letters a bit too much, using them for weapons, races and classes too, it's not correct but I think it's better, sorry if it's an annoyance...
Retribution (Int) build:
- Deva (seems to be the best)
- Genasi (best if you plan to reach some Str-requiring feat)
- Eladrin
- Longtooth Shifter
- Tiefling (could prove very good with multiclassing and Infernal Wrath enhancing feats)
Pursuit (Dex) build:
- Elf (best stats)
- Half-Orc (seems to be the best due to its racial powers)
- Drow (best if multiclass Ranger, using Martial Power feats, and going Drow Wanderer paragon path)
- Eladrin
- Razorclaw Shifter (best stats)
- Deva
I would add dwarf to both those list also, wisdom being a primary stat, and constitution is never bad for a melee character. Dwarfen Resilience is just awesome for any character. And of course there is always the dwarven weapon training and dwarven durability feats.
I would add dwarf to both those list also, wisdom being a primary stat, and constitution is never bad for a melee character. Dwarfen Resilience is just awesome for any character. And of course there is always the dwarven weapon training and dwarven durability feats.
Oh! I had totally forgot, yes. Maybe not so much for pursuit avenger, but surely very much for retribution. It even fits as a theme, paragon multiclass in some martial class, give him the Grudge Style arena feat and you made a true dwarf...
Other than that, I love the class :D
No long beard, in sign of constant grief or self-punishment but long long hair, also dyed nearly white in some way... A strange ghostly and grim dwarf slayer...
As per the ongoing 10 vs 5, my calculations are the 10 ongoing. I used 5 ongoing as an example. I should probably change that so as to not mislead anyone else. I'll try adding in the Brutal 2, but it honestly doesn't add that much DPR. 2d12 brutal 2 adds about 1 point of damage. At 19% crit contribution to DPR that's around .2 DPR. That doesn't affect the outcome that much when your DPR is around 20. and the difference is around 3 DPR.
I have a kobold avenger in the words with a bastard sword. Sure a d10 sword with high crit would be nice but bleh... not having that 5% chance of extra damage isn't the end of the world. and not getting that +1 bonus when a medium wields a versatile sword isn't bad either and it becomes less important as you climb higher in levels anyways as I don't think there is much different between 34 and 35 damage o_o.
I'm giving up a little omph power for some manueverability when using a kobold, who makes a superb pursuit avenger >_<
makes me happy, finally Clerics have something to multiclass into that fits with their primary abiliy score.
All the Leader classes now have effective multiclass options.
Wait. What was wrong with Paladin? Laser-Clerics use WIS/CHA, Charismadins use CHA/WIS, seems like a perfect match (paladins are even sub-leaders).
Avengers seem like a terrible match. Melee Clerics use STR not WIS and clerics get no particular benefit from DEX or INT. Invokers are a better match as they at least have a WIS/CON build.
I must say I don't really like how you lose the armour of faith class feature if you were heavy armour. I would love to play a heavy armour wearing dwarf avenger. And I don't see how it would be unbalanced either, I'd have to spend quite a few feats to get there.
As I recall, Armor of Fiath isn't lost for wearing heavy armor, it's lost for wearing any armor other than cloth. It exists distinctly to allow them to wear cloth while gaining protection equivalent to hide.
That said, I was also disappointed to see that neither build uses or is even compatible with heavy armor. Then again, I was looking forward to a class that was templar-like avengers, not inquisitor-like. It seems to me that the "T" class we didn't get was "thurge" before being renamed invoker, and that avengers were the "I" class as "inquisitor".
Wait. What was wrong with Paladin? Laser-Clerics use WIS/CHA, Charismadins use CHA/WIS, seems like a perfect match (paladins are even sub-leaders).
Avengers seem like a terrible match. Melee Clerics use STR not WIS and clerics get no particular benefit from DEX or INT. Invokers are a better match as they at least have a WIS/CON build.
A laser cleric who wants some wisdom based melee powers or a avenger who wants some ranged based powers could make a really good avenger/cleric or vice versa multiclass.
As I recall, Armor of Fiath isn't lost for wearing heavy armor, it's lost for wearing any armor other than cloth. It exists distinctly to allow them to wear cloth while gaining protection equivalent to hide.
Its only lost if you wear heavy armor. You can take feats to use light armor and use light armor with the class ability just fine.
That said, I was also disappointed to see that neither build uses or is even compatible with heavy armor. Then again, I was looking forward to a class that was templar-like avengers, not inquisitor-like. It seems to me that the "T" class we didn't get was "thurge" before being renamed invoker, and that avengers were the "I" class as "inquisitor".
Meh. Avenger build Paladins are already pretty much templars. I am sort of happy that avengers are more of a inquisitor/witch hunter deal.
A laser cleric who wants some wisdom based melee powers or a avenger who wants some ranged based powers could make a really good avenger/cleric or vice versa multiclass.
Point taken. However, my primary point was that Cleric already had a decent multiclass option.
Meh. Avenger build Paladins are already pretty much templars. I am sort of happy that avengers are more of a inquisitor/witch hunter deal.
Kind of, though their damage is a little sub-par (or the options to boost it are inconsistent) even by sub-striker standards. Still I would of preferred the Avenger to cover both the Inquisitor and the Templar archetype based on build. Sort of like how the Invoker wears light or heavy armor based on build.
Also, we already have Ranger, Rogue, Warlock, Barbarian, and Sorcerer as light armor strikers. Monk is expected to be a striker, so that's six classes. I would have liked to have seen a heavy armor striker to shake things up a little bit, and was actually expecting it as most of the hints about the avenger before it was revealed talked about it being a different kind of striker (which it is, just not in the way I expected).
[INDENT]...and yes I know that many melee rangers and starlocks take chain proficiency due to a lack of points to spend on DEX/INT, but that seems more like lack of foresight on the part of designers at WotC (as it serves more as tax and less of a feature). I should expect that were those classes designed today they would be handled differently as many of the PHB2 classes show.[/INDENT]
Fighters can be heavy armor strikers. But yeah, a proper striker that wears heavy armor would be different. That is somewhat counter to what a striker is though. While strikers are supposed to deal a lot of damage, they are also supposed to be mobile. Mobility and heavy armor don't really mix (though they can with feats). They don't, however, mix innately if you get my drift.
Yeah, I get it. That's why I thought a Heavy Armor Strike could make an interesting twist. Also roles don't always dictate every thing.
Swordmages are highly mobile, lack "stickiness", and are somewhat fragile (all uncommon traits compared to other defenders). Were as most defenders are front-line combatants, swordmages are more mid-line.
Barbarians, at least the play-test, are lacking in mobility (unless one counts charge) and are can take significantly more abuse then a typical striker.
Swordmages are highly mobile, lack "stickiness", and are somewhat fragile (all uncommon traits compared to other defenders). Were as most defenders are front-line combatants, swordmages are more mid-line.
Swordmages fragile? Unlike heavy blade fighters they have Con as one of their top 2 stats and even in leather match the armor of a heavy blade fighter with scale and heavy shield. They have higher defenses, more hp and as they raise their Con will also have more surges than fighters.
you're not THAT crippled if you play a small race. It's a disadvantage yes and I wish they could give small races more advantages but this is not as bad as it seems.
I have a kobold avenger in the words with a bastard sword. Sure a d10 sword with high crit would be nice but bleh... not having that 5% chance of extra damage isn't the end of the world. and not getting that +1 bonus when a medium wields a versatile sword isn't bad either and it becomes less important as you climb higher in levels anyways as I don't think there is much different between 34 and 35 damage o_o.
I'm giving up a little omph power for some manueverability when using a kobold, who makes a superb pursuit avenger >_<
At that point though, Goblin would be much better and I'd surely give him the triple-headed flail, reflavored as a big iron ball and chain, and make a "Night Goblin Fanatic" from Warhammer! :D Perfect Match!
About multiclassing.
I think that apart from crazy racial-multiclass synergies given by being Drow and multiclassing Ranger, other really good options for Avengers may be Shamans, IF there's a way to summon the spirit by multiclass means. The Stalker Spirit Shaman has the same stats of a Retribution Avenger. And then there's Druid, which has its strikery (and beasty!) build based on Wis and Dex. We'll have to see, they could turn out as either very cool conceptually but lacking on mechanics or really good altogether.
Currently, one must also consider Rogue multiclassing for Pursuit Avengers (if powers won't turn out redundant) and Wizard and Swordmage for Retribution Avengers. I'd say Wizard's utilities could come up as good and flavorful.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pod/20090218
Awesome news.... Wil Wheaton plays an Eladrin Avenger in the new PvP/PA Podcasts. I can't wait till they get to some real action so we can see what the class can do in play.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pod/20090218
We had known he was going to play an Eladrin Avenger for quite some time, or at least, we had predicted it...
Because he was playing an Eladrin striker who didn't need Charisma... No Sorcerer, No Barbarian (Eladrin Barbarian doesn't seem like something you should play in a podcasted preview game...).While heavy blade mastery might be within reach of a pursuit-avenger, it would be far from optimal.
I really hope for an avenger-PP offering a 19-20 (or maybe even 18-20 *sorcerers/rogues each have one*) crit range.
While heavy blade mastery might be within reach of a pursuit-avenger, it would be far from optimal.
Multiclassing into Radiant Servant(Cleric paragon) takes 1 feat. It even uses the same stat, and Avengers already use implements. Its not even a bad PP by itself.
Multiclassing into Radiant Servant(Cleric paragon) takes 1 feat. It even uses the same stat, and Avengers already use implements. Its not even a bad PP by itself.
Yet it's a cleric PP targeted at clerics. Avengers would take it soley for the extenced crit range, that's not a good deal (in this case better take student of caiphon because although it requires a different stat it's a striker-PP and gives you 18-20 crit-range with radiant powers). An avenger-PP would include an extended crit range with all the other fearues also being targeted at avenfers
Second Penny Arcade/PvP podcast is up.
While its not really a Striker PP, the Radiant Servant isn't a bad fit. Close Burst 8 for decent damage is nice on anybody.
Agreed...
- 19-20 critical for radiant attacks
- Automatically cause one nearby enemy to take ongoing radiant when you spend an action point
- Demons and undead take a save penalty against effects of your powers
- Both attack powers key off of what is already your primary stat
- 18-20 critical for radiant/fear attacks
- Cause the enemy(s) you are attacking to take ongoing radiant when you spend an action point, but only if you hit.
- An ability you cannot use because you cannot place a warlock's curse
- Encounter attack power uses Charisma, which is neither a primary nor secondary avenger stat and synergizes poorly with the avenger's primary stat (daily attack power has no attack roll so uses no stat)