For instance, the paladin is the valiant knight and defender of the faith, while the cleric is the healer and preacher that wields holy power to heal or harm. Invokers are the reclusive prophets or scholarly priests with a direct connection to their deity.
The best niche I can see for the avenger is that of the inquisitor or divine monster hunter, whose mission it is to strike down enemies of his faith. These can include monsters like undead, devils, or demons, or even corrupted members of his church like fallen paladins or corrupt clerics.
He'll probably be the most 'subtle' or 'sneaky' of the divine classes, with leather armor proficiency and a specialization in either two-handed weapons (like swords or flails), or bows. Avengers will probably be more relaxed in terms of alignment restrictions (since they're willing to employ any means possible to defend their faith, like the 3E gray guard), and be able to select unaligned while following a good deity much like the cleric.
Here's an example write-up below:
Role: Striker.
Power Source: Divine. You defend your faith by stalking and striking down its enemies, within and without.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Wisdom
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged, military ranged
Bonus to Defense: +1 Reflex, +1 Will
Select Religion plus four trained skills.
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Dungeoneering, Intimidate, Insight, Nature, Religion, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery.
What do you think the Avenger will be like?
The other would be a "semi-Avatar" kind of one. I could see it being one where the god you worship whispers to you, shows you things, etc. I could see stuff like lots of re-rolls, change enemy rolls, etc. to showcase the gods aiding you. You could have the "blind swordsmen" concept work with this, with the god guiding your PC as he tears into enemies.
Gruff men of god that use brutal tactics and tools to rid the world of evil.
At least that's what I'm hoping for, sounds like a blast to play.
2) Channel Divinity.
http://tehcrosshair.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/whnt_04.jpg
or for a more evil avenger, I think about this guy:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd1/Erythnul_p67.jpg
I have always been a fan of the Witch Hunters from Warhammer:
http://tehcrosshair.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/whnt_04.jpg
or for a more evil avenger, I think about this guy:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd1/Erythnul_p67.jpg
No no no, after seeing the Warden, why do you expect such an abrupt change towards new things within the divine power source? It's gonna be armored, believe me... And we (you and me at least) will rant about it being a striker Paladin, and people is gonna tell us "it plays completely different, they have different roles, I can tell the differences between the two, I picture the Paladin as this and the Avenger as this but more like that"....
No no no, after seeing the Warden, why do you expect such an abrupt change towards new things within the divine power source? It's gonna be armored, believe me... And we (you and me at least) will rant about it being a striker Paladin, and people is gonna tell us "it plays completely different, they have different roles, I can tell the differences between the two, I picture the Paladin as this and the Avenger as this but more like that"....
Please, a striker Templar.
No no no, after seeing the Warden, why do you expect such an abrupt change towards new things within the divine power source? It's gonna be armored, believe me... And we (you and me at least) will rant about it being a striker Paladin, and people is gonna tell us "it plays completely different, they have different roles, I can tell the differences between the two, I picture the Paladin as this and the Avenger as this but more like that"....
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst and expect nothing.
Mechanically, I guess I'm thinking Cha and/or Dex as main stats, representing their force of will in hunting down their enemies and also the quickness you need to outmaneuver those nasty zombies/vampires/infidel assassins/etc. Wis seems to be a constant among Divine classes, but we'll see.
Actually... a melee build (big ol' 2hers) and a ranged build (crossbows) could be neat, incorporate both the charging Zealot archetype and the slightly more subtle Witch Hunter archetype.
"I digress, we have a light armored sneaky striker, what we need is a heavy armored hard hitter. That's what I want to see. We're getting all kinds of controllers coming out of the woodworks, the Cleric and Warlord are very different takes on the leader, the Fighter and Swordmage are completely different defenders and the Pally and Warden are different still. Rangers, Rogues, Warlocks, sure, they're different, but except the Warlock's arcane power, they have some pretty similar mechanics. The Barbarian even flows pretty well with the Beast Master ranger, minus a companion. I want to see something drastically different from the other strikers, and a heavy armored, smashy tank would do just that."
Hmm...
..........Well, someone had to say it.
A reflavored warlock curse...Divine Judgment
A channel Divinity of some type
Heavy armor
Two handed weapon bonus....
Here is an example idea:
At-Will
Minor Action
Effect: You can place a Divine Judgment on the enemy nearest to you that you can see. If you hit a DJed enemy with an attack, you deal extra damage. You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll. You can deal this extra damage once per round, so if you have dealt Dj damage since the start of your turn, you cannot deal it again until the start of your next turn.
level....1hnd/twohnd
01-10 1d6/2d4
11-20 2d6/4d4
21-30 3d6/6d4
edit: oh maybe a lay on hands like effect for themselves only...basicly a second seocond wind every encounter....
I want to see something drastically different from the other strikers, and a heavy armored, smashy tank would do just that."
something like this?
or this?
or these?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dragon_368/119709.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Dragon_370/121402.jpg
hmmm there sure alot of pics that meet that description, I wonder why...
Probably in the form of a WIS based Striker... depicted as a more "cunning" servant of the gods than the Stalwart Paladin or the Devout Cleric.
As with most classes it will be the secondary stat dependance that makes the difference.
You'll probably get something like a WIS/DEX Avenger (better in light armour due to DEX bonus) for all you pulp/Van Helsing fans and a WIS/STR Avenger (with heavy armour) for the traditionalists.
The main thing I think the Avenger will bring to the Divine stable will be the ability to effectively use ranged weapons/attacks (as that seems to be one of the main abilites of most Strikers). Perhaps with a bonus for the WIS/DEX build and the ability to have a Striker with a decent starting AC. In the form of a WIS/STR build.
I would guess that the Avenger's Channel Divinity will be its "Hunter's Quarry/Warlock's Curse" damage boosting ability. Channel Divinity at the closest target... do +Xd6 damage to it once per round on a hit.
Other than that I would expect more smiting, radiant damage and control effects (fear and ongoing damage would be my bet for the most prevelent).
As for specific types of creature. Perhaps that would be a function of the Channel Divinity ability (i.e. pick a type of creature do +WIS modifier damage to it until the start of your next turn).
That's the sort of thing I would bet on...
PGC
No no no, after seeing the Warden, why do you expect such an abrupt change towards new things within the divine power source? It's gonna be armored, believe me... And we (you and me at least) will rant about it being a striker Paladin, and people is gonna tell us "it plays completely different, they have different roles, I can tell the differences between the two, I picture the Paladin as this and the Avenger as this but more like that"....
Glad to see you've moved on from the Warden debacle.
1) Extra damage dice to enemies that attack you or an ally before your turn
2) Crossbow, light and heavy blade, mace/flail/club proficiencies
3) A channel divinity to do extra damage to Undead (or otherwise affect them)
4) A Channel Divinity to do MASSIVE damage to a monster that reduces an ally to 0 hps or less
5) Proficiency till Chainmail
6) Use of either Swords and MAce/clubs/flails as implements (not likely) or Holy symbols (very likely)
7) Trained in Intimidate and Religion
8) Cha and Int as vital stats
3) A channel divinity to do extra damage to Undead (or otherwise affect them)
As the cleric already covers this role I expect/hope for the avenger being extra effective against anything from the elemental chaos or otherwise related to the primordials
Glad to see you've moved on from the Warden debacle.
If you can call it moving on... Go ahead. Or was there sarcasm in your statement?
If you can call it moving on... Go ahead. Or was there sarcasm in your statement?
The internet is a terrible medium for sarcasm.
I would guess that the Avenger's Channel Divinity will be its "Hunter's Quarry/Warlock's Curse" damage boosting ability. Channel Divinity at the closest target... do +Xd6 damage to it once per round on a hit.
Channel divinity abilities pretty much need to be encounter powers to interact properly with the channel divinity feats already in the game. Striker added damage is effectively a once-per-round at-will, so I can't see them intersecting.
Since the paladin's traditional 'smite evil' ability got more or less written out of the class in 4E, I can see WotC incorperating an ability along those lines for the added striker damage.
Split light/heavy armor builds would be interesting, but harder to balance - and the light armor 'witchhunter' doesn't stand out very much from the ranger, so I'd be inclined to favor a heavy-armor 2H weapon striker.
So far, Divine classes have a leaning towards leader type abilities - I can see minor healing or party buff skills as being part of the class's portfolio.
The Avenger worried me.
Now that I saw that they managed to be unoriginal working with something new as the Warden, what would I expect from a class whose name is exactly the same as one of the Paladin's builds? And when the class is of the same power source of the Paladin's?
Of course I expect a class totally lacking in originality.
No one here has managed to bring up an idea for this Avenger that looks like a NEW thing. That's because sometimes things are well covered, exhausted. And trying to scratch more out of them results in lots of unpleasant deja-vus. Divine Striker. Isn't a high damage two-handed weapon using paladin a divine striker? It's even called an Avenging Paladin!!
Maybe there's a way to do an original divine striker, but since no one seems able to find it, I doubt that WotC will, since we've all seen they're doing things in a much more conservative way than first thought.
And Rikiji, no offense meant but I'll quote you to start a critique.
So far, Divine classes have a leaning towards leader type abilities - I can see minor healing or party buff skills as being part of the class's portfolio.
If the majority of the community thinks things this way, and is ok with it, how do we expect originality? Give minor healing and party buff to a class that already suffers with a terrible similarity to the Paladin and where will the differences stay?? Oh I see, in the way you play. The role. And tell me, if you do a Paladin with 10 Con, two-handed weapon, and optimized for damage, are you going to play it like a Defender? No, you're gonna play it like a Striker. Hence no differences. But I understand that all we'll be happy about is the embedded striker-damage-dealing-feature.
Really, I'm not gonna see any difference between WotC classes and homebrew if they stop at this mediocre design heights.
And Rikiji, no offense meant but I'll quote you to start a critique.
If the majority of the community thinks things this way, and is ok with it, how do we expect originality? Give minor healing and party buff to a class that already suffers with a terrible similarity to the Paladin and where will the differences stay?? Oh I see, in the way you play. The role. And tell me, if you do a Paladin with 10 Con, two-handed weapon, and optimized for damage, are you going to play it like a Defender? No, you're gonna play it like a Striker. Hence no differences. But I understand that all we'll be happy about is the embedded striker-damage-dealing-feature.
Really, I'm not gonna see any difference between WotC classes and homebrew if they stop at this mediocre design heights.
No offense taken. To be honest, originality takes a back seat to playability - and WotC has been very solid on giving us playable classes so far, even though nothing has been terribly original. They're still primarily re-releasing material from previous editions - and will be through 2009 at least. That said, while we're making vague stabs in the dark as to what the class can do based on what has been released so far (common themes for power source and role) there are innumerable ways to realize the class that would make it mechanically interesting and fun to play. Admittedly, I find the name a bit cheesy, but I feel it's premature to be making any kind of formal critique about the class itself.
Divine Striker. Isn't a high damage two-handed weapon using paladin a divine striker? It's even called an Avenging Paladin!!
And why is that bad?
While one suggested paladin build is indeed called Avenging Paladin this build still can compete with the reall strikers. It's still a defender who is much worse at playing a striker than the fighter. So the people who want exactly that, a divine striker who plays like a 2h paladin and is a true striker, will be very pleased.
Maybe there's a way to do an original divine striker, but since no one seems able to find it, I doubt that WotC will, since we've all seen they're doing things in a much more conservative way than first thought.
Who said that they're even trying to find such a way? Would disappoint the people waiting for the avenger to be what the avenging paladin build fails to be.
DAnd Rikiji, no offense meant but I'll quote you to start a critique. If the majority of the community thinks things this way, and is ok with it, how do we expect originality?
If the majority of the community thinks things this way, why disappoint them and not give them their crusader?
DThe role. And tell me, if you do a Paladin with 10 Con, two-handed weapon, and optimized for damage, are you going to play it like a Defender? No, you're gonna play it like a Striker. Hence no differences.
The difference is in the damage you fail to deliver.
DBut I understand that all we'll be happy about is the embedded striker-damage-dealing-feature.
I we'll all be happy that's perfect and WotC couldn't have done any better.
As it sounds at least you won't be happy. Well, that's sad for you, but making all of us happy is impossible anyway. So the only important question is whether you happen to represent the majority or only represent the minority.
As making all happy isn't possible the question is whether or not WotC makes the most people happy.
Personally I am really hoping for the avenger to be something along the line of what we're already suggest with the Battle Cleric and Avenging Paladin, but with the difference in being able to deliver true-striker-damage instead of wannabee-striker-damage
From all the classes in the PHB2 we're so far know a lot about, none of them interest me at all (well, maybe the barbarian a little bit but I would rather play a great-weapon-fighter). If the avenger isn't going to be exactly what you fear him to be I won't buy the PHB2 as it would totally fail to interest me.
So while I understand your position, mine just happens to be the opposite. It's nothing personal, but I am just being selfish and hope that my wish for the class comes true and not your wish (yeah, maybe it's too selfish of me as I already have the great-weapon-fighter which I could roleplay as divine avenger, but I am just interested in the class)
Someone else is hit. The Paladin spends a surge, and they arn't damaged anymore.
Compare to a power like Martyr's Blessing. someone else gets hit, Paladin takes damage instead, and the next short rest, he spends a healing surge.
It's retroactive tanking, but it's still a defender power.
You people are looking at the Paladin's LAy on hands wrong. It's not a leader ability, it's a defender ability.
Someone else is hit. The Paladin spends a surge, and they arn't damaged anymore.
Compare to a power like Martyr's Blessing. someone else gets hit, Paladin takes damage instead, and the next short rest, he spends a healing surge.
It's retroactive tanking, but it's still a defender power.
Very interesting perspective, Anubis.
The difference is in the damage you fail to deliver.
Is that really what the game is about now? when the hell did min/maxing become why people play D&D?
maybe it has not hit you guys yet; WE ONLY GET FOUR, each power source only gets four classes for an indefinite amount of time.
We only get four(4) classes to cover as many types of divine characters we can come up with and the best we can do for our last one is a Paladin that does more damage?... there is something very wrong with our minds if we can not think beyond Cleric and Paladin.
But what's even worst is that it's not because we're uncreative, lots of people seem content with reflavoring this garbage to the point of unreconition, no it's because we're more concerned about doing more damage!
Countless character concepts are without representation because the Paladin/Druid/Cleric can't do something as well some other classes? Do we need to make defender, striker, leader and controller versions of every class from 3.0 before we start getting creative?
Well I hope you're happy with your Paladin build turned class because it's the last divine class you're going to see for a long time.
Is that really what the game is about now? when the hell did min/maxing become why people play D&D?
maybe it has not hit you guys yet; WE ONLY GET FOUR, each power source only gets four classes for an indefinite amount of time.
We only get four(4) classes to cover as many types of divine characters we can come up with and the best we can do for our last one is a Paladin that does more damage?... there is something very wrong with our minds if we can not think beyond Cleric and Paladin.
But what's even worst is that it's not because we're uncreative, lots of people seem content with reflavoring this garbage to the point of unreconition, no it's because we're more concerned about doing more damage!
Countless character concepts are without representation because the Paladin/Druid/Cleric can't do something as well some other classes? Do we need to make defender, striker, leader and controller versions of every class from 3.0 before we start getting creative?
Well I hope you're happy with your Paladin build turned class because it's the last divine class you're going to see for a long time.
You're Acting like a child. The avenger could very well fit the role of the holy man that destroys the enemies of his god or religion. It's an archetype not fully represented by what we have. (Cleric = Priest that leads aka. Moses; Paladin = The holy warrior that protect and defends the faithful; Invoker = The fire and brimstone prophet that brings doom to people aka: Elijah and the pillar of fire that killed the baalites.)
Can you make a STR Cleric and call it a Paladin? Yes but the mechanics of the paladin fit the archetype much better. You are unilateraly looking at archetypes. I can take a wizard and call him a cleric with correct flavoring.
We need to look not only at archetypes but also classes tha make the BEST implementation of that archetype, thus the need of the avenger for the witch hunter/ holy assasin archetype
maybe it has not hit you guys yet; WE ONLY GET FOUR, each power source only gets four classes for an indefinite amount of time.
We only get four(4) classes to cover as many types of divine characters we can come up with...
This is patently untrue, Mcnancy. WotC has never said anything of the sort; once, they made a comment about each _____ Power book serving "at least four classes". In fact, the Arcane power source already has six classes scheduled. The fact that (early in the product line) each power source -- other than Arcane -- does currently have only four classes is beside the point, because it's contrary to the stated intention of WotC's design strategy for 4E: no needless symmetry.
In short, your premise above is without basis in fact, Mcnancy.
...
Well I hope you're happy with your Paladin build turned class because it's the last divine class you're going to see for a long time.
You're getting awfully worked up for a class that hasn't even been previewed yet.
The only things known for certain about this class are the following:
- It's Divine;
- It's called "Avenger"; and,
- It's being published in PH2, and will receive support in Divine Power.
The Templar were an order of knights (like the Paladins) who formed to take the Holy Land back from the turkish muslim Infidels during the First Crusade. They successfully drove away the turks, and captured massive amounts of treasure. (They eventually evolved into the Masons.)
Aside from the "knight" bit, that seems a bit to offensive to be a paladin.
The fact that (early in the product line) each power source -- other than Arcane -- does currently have only four classes is beside the point, because it's contrary to the stated intention of WotC's design strategy for 4E: no needless symmetry.
I'm not saying the 4 of each power source is a rule, but thats what we're getting, is it not? does anyone know of any divine classes afer the PHB2?
I don't count Artificer and Swordmage because they're each for a specific concept within a specific setting, but yeah, we might see a divine class for a specific concept within a specific setting.
You're getting awfully worked up for a class that hasn't even been previewed yet.
I'm sorry, I realize that nothing has been confirmed, but I thought we were talking about whether or not it would be a bad thing if it happened.
the need of the avenger for the witch hunter/ holy assasin archetype
I'm not talking about that guy, I'm much more down with that archetype, I posted the Witch Hunter picture, remember?
I'm not talking about that guy, I'm much more down with that archetype, I posted the Witch Hunter picture, remember?
Then you're just complaining for complaining's sake, the Avenger will fill the Witch-hunter role much better than the current known classes (or so we think thus far).
I don't count Artificer and Swordmage because they're each for a specific concept within a specific setting, but yeah, we might see a divine class for a specific concept within a specific setting.
With the new 4 philosophy "everything is core and nothing is setting specific".
That's why the books who used to be setting specific nowadays don't even retain any setting specific color scheme or setting specific fonts.
Swordmage will get full coverage in Arcane Power and articifier most likely would have gotten too if his supplement would have been released earlier.
With the new 4 philosophy "everything is core and nothing is setting specific".
That's why the books who used to be setting specific nowadays don't even retain any setting specific color scheme or setting specific fonts.
Swordmage will get full coverage in Arcane Power and articifier most likely would have gotten too if his supplement would have been released earlier.
They are treated the same, I agree, but they were created for a specific concept within a specific setting; one must assume their creation and design revolved around the world they were created for and their creators had no obligations to anyone not playing in that setting.
I believe that the classes that are not made for a specific setting need to meet certain standards when it comes to how they can relate to any setting that would have them, those standards are the heart of my posts.
Can we please talk about what we expect from new classes like Avenger instead of complaining about people complaining.
Pretend that you are WotC, you just released the 4E PHB, you want to make a PHB2; how would go about coming up with what classes to design? what sort of needs and wants would you try to meet? what sort of mentality would you have about expanding on what you have? how would you factor in multiclassing? which kind of D&D player would you try to please? would you go for flexible or fleshed out archetypes? go with what people know or change it up?
They are treated the same, I agree, but they were created for a specific concept within a specific setting; one must assume their creation and design revolved around the world they were created for and their creators had no obligations to anyone not playing in that setting.
I believe that the classes that are not made for a specific setting need to meet certain standards when it comes to how they can relate to any setting that would have them, those standards are the heart of my posts.
Can we please talk about what we expect from new classes like Avenger instead of complaining about people complaining.
Pretend that you are WotC, you just released the 4E PHB, you want to make a PHB2; how would go about coming up with what classes to design? what sort of needs and wants would you try to meet? what sort of mentality would you have about expanding on what you have? how would you factor in multiclassing? which kind of D&D player would you try to please? would you go for flexible or fleshed out archetypes? go with what people know or change it up?
When did swordmage become a setting specific concept? Nothing about swordmage screams Forgotten Realms to me at all... except maybe some power names, but even then, the warlock has it trumped for proper nouns influencing powers.
And as for the hypothetical questions, none of them are mutually exclusive.
A STR-based Paladin or Cleric are already pretty solid combtants, while they may not be huge hitters, their durability (self-healing and solid defences) means they can outlast most enemies. Their heavy armour and shield proficiencies, mean they can dump DEX (and INT) to pump their damage stats, which again gives them the advantage over many other similar classes (most notably the Swordmage and Warlord who need a bit of MAD).
So taking this as the baseline for the divine power source, consider the effect on a class designed - primarily - to do DPR.
- Heavy Armour (min Chainmail with Light Shield)
- Minor healing (assuming a minimum of once per encounter)
If anyones Ranger, Barbarian or Rogue has MCd into Cleric (or even Warlord) they will know the benefit of a heal, they will know the strength of having your own source of healing as a Striker. it's well worth the feat and the bit of WIS it took to get.
Now imagine a Striker that gets that at level 1 for free... add that to the potential for a base AC16 without the need to reduce your primary damage stat (assuming STR or WIS)... you've got a really strong Striker class right off the mark...
Mind you... now that I've actually gone through the process... it seems to be an entirely viable character and no more unbalanced than any other!
Of course that assumes the Avenger gets no immediately busted ability that messes with all that... a +damage "Hunter's Quarry/Sneak Attack" and perhaps a snazzy weapon style (one for better ranged attacks, one for heavier armour) and you would be good to go... ;)
When did swordmage become a setting specific concept? Nothing about swordmage screams Forgotten Realms to me at all...
Well, I don't have the quote ready but IIRC the designer of the swordmage said that he originally wanted the SM to be included in the PHB but that didn't work due to time issues and so the FRPG was the next best thing to publish the swordmage
Well, I don't have the quote ready but IIRC the designer of the swordmage said that he originally wanted the SM to be included in the PHB but that didn't work due to time issues and so the FRPG was the next best thing to publish the swordmage
Technically they wanted to put the Bard and Druid int eh PHB1 but mechanical/playtest reasons held them back. As it stand the Sword Mage is a wonderful class that I would allow in just about any upcoming game. Thematicaly it's fun. This is why classes that show up in 'setting' books will always get a pass from me unless it does seriously weird things to my game.
1) The Avenger is entirely new. So we can see any of the six abilities used by him. But...
2) If deva make good invokers, they probably have Int/Wis or Cons/Wis as bonus stats. So...
3) Great are the chances of existing at least one avenger build that fits the deva (as the spoiler on the sheet). Wisdom is almost certain as an important ability for the avenger (and possibly the primary stat. Cool!). Constitution would fit a heavy armored striker that doubles as defender. Intelligence would make a light armored sneaky striker that are proud of knowing anything about any monster/enemy focusing on knowledge skill used in monster knowledge checks and insight/perception (as a good inquisitor/hunter).
My guessing
Ability appearance chances:
80% Wisdom as stat
70% Dexterity as stat (to favor the dex races with at least one divine class)
60% Intelligence and/or constitution as stats (to favor the deva avenger)
50% Strength as stat (if the heavy armored 2h weapon avenger comes true)
25% Charisma as stat (wouldn't steal the "party face" job of the paladin)
General Definition:
Armor prof. up to scale mail
Weapon prof. military melee simple ranged
Holy symbol as implement for ranged and area attacks (confirmed by invoker article)
Builds:
80% Inquisitor build [Wis/Dex]
Light armored of course. The so awaited "divine sneaky class". The primary objective is provide divine source for dex races. The best divine class for elves now is the avenger instead of cleric, that was an strange arrangement as best divine class for elvels. Pure Striker.
60% Templar build [Wis/Int] (build for devas)
Light armored with great use of the holy symbol. Striker/Leader.
50% "Paladin Avenger" build [Wis/Con] (what's wrong with the name? We already have an Avenging Paladin)
Heavy armored 2h weapon. Striker/Defender.
45% Enforcer/Judge build [Wis/Str] (best striker class for half-orcs! salivating already?)
Heavy armored 2h weapon. Pure Striker.
We'll see at least one light armored build. More precisely: one light armored (hide) and one heavy armored (scale) builds.
I have successfully predicted a lot of things in 4e until now (I'm some sort of 4e oracle). Now I will show to you the most important prediction about the avenger.
THE AVENGER WILL BE ONE OF THE GREATEST SURPRISES OF 4th EDITION, AS IT WILL BE ONE OF THE MOST AWESOME CLASSES (IF NOT THE COOLEST CLASS). THE AVENGER WILL BE A SHADOW TO ALL OTHER DIVINE CLASS. I FEEL SORRY FOR THE PALADIN. EVEN IF YOU NEVER PLAYED/LIKED A DIVINE CLASS YOU WILL WANT TO PLAY ONE. IN THE END OF THE 4th EDITION ERA THE AVENGER WILL BE CONSIDERED THE MOST POPULAR CLASS.
(Sorry for any grammatical errors. English is not my primary language)
Technically they wanted to put the Bard and Druid int eh PHB1
Yeah, and the Druid was originally a hybrid class designed by David Noonan…is that why he was fired?
It's a shame, because I met him over here at the London Dungeon on Open Game day in 2007, really nice and bright man (and was not a gamer stereotype).
Yeah, and the Druid was originally a hybrid class designed by David Noonan…is that why he was fired?
It's a shame, because I met him over here at the London Dungeon on Open Game day last year, really nice and bright man (and was not a gamer stereotype).
David Noonan… fired?
David Noonan… fired?
Yeah, he was let go late last year, I believe, along with some other WotC employees.
David Noonan… fired?
Laid off is probably a better description than fired. The impression I got was that they had to downsize because of the economy.
I'm hoping the Avenger is a Paladin, minus shields and trading Divine Challenge for Divine "Curse", but properly made as a "Primary +2 Secondary options" class.
You can do it yourself then. More than that, you just did it already. Put in the curse from Warlock, change damage to radiant and make all powers Strength based. You just have to invent a secondary ability bonus for some powers, the ones that don't have Wisdom yet, and you have it.
I wouldn't mind getting proficiency with some sort of Whip/Whip type weapon just like my favorite family of vampire hunters. It would be fitting considering the recent Dhampyr article.
An interesting feature coming from your idea would then be something like this:
"Not only that, but we're talking about a power source that really shouldn't show its true variation from role-to-role, but from deity-to-deity. I'm fine with generic classes, but I want to see Divine Power expand on nature divine characters, death divine characters, and other common deific portfolios. Right now, Kord, Bahamut, and Pelor make up the primary divine deities represented, and I want more. I want Melora and Avandra represented, and even a little bit on the side of Bane, Asmodeus, and Torog."
"I'm hearing all this about unoriginality in the PHB2 classes, and I don't know where it is coming from... I mean, compared to 3e fluff, sure it's a little unoriginal because the classes in the PHB2 are remakes primarily... 4e isn't even a year old, 3e released plenty of stuff that still needs to be updated (even if you don't include the way too specific classes that don't really fit 4e, and the stuff that's generally considered crap)."
You're right, I don't want to pass for one that would like only new classes or nothing, my concern is that those too specific classes and the stuff generally considered crap could cross the line from 3e to 4e with a few of these new classes. For now I'm still very positive, but the Warden showed off some signals of that type while staying still on the good side. So now I'm a little more suspicious towards the next 3 classes, and really hope their quality won't drop off from the actual standard.
"Not only that, but we're talking about a power source that really shouldn't show its true variation from role-to-role, but from deity-to-deity. I'm fine with generic classes, but I want to see Divine Power expand on nature divine characters, death divine characters, and other common deific portfolios. Right now, Kord, Bahamut, and Pelor make up the primary divine deities represented, and I want more. I want Melora and Avandra represented, and even a little bit on the side of Bane, Asmodeus, and Torog."
Yes, I hope for some more deity-specific customization too. And I hope it will go a little beyond the Channel Divinity feature and some narrow Paragon Paths. I hope it will expand to general feats and maybe alternative powers not requiring anything else than maybe a deity specific affiliation/feat/channel divinity.
Sadly, I doubt we'll see support for evil deities anytime soon. We could get some in DDi around the release date of Complete Divine or maybe get an all-evil sourcebook later, maybe after the release of the evil-friendly Shadow power source, who knows.
Sadly, I doubt we'll see support for evil deities anytime soon. We could get some in DDi around the release date of Complete Divine or maybe get an all-evil sourcebook later, maybe after the release of the evil-friendly Shadow power source, who knows.
I'm sure/hope shadow classes won't be synonymous with evil.
You can do it yourself then. More than that, you just did it already.
Which doesn't help if you want to play in RPGA games
Which doesn't help if you want to play in RPGA games
what exactly do you mean by that?
what exactly do you mean by that?
No house rules.
As far as armor is concerned, . . . I don't know. When Briza leads the group that was sent to retrieve Drizt, I could see her wearing anything from a thick hide corset to maybe a thin and tight breastplate. It doesn't make as much of a difference to me. Either way, I don't feel like it steps on the toes of the paladin. The paladin is at the front line, calling out challenges for the honor of his/her deity. The avenger is just a step back, not avoiding the battle, but waiting for the time to strike with the most power to bring the judgments of the gods against the sinner. If forum members are correct about speculation about the avenger dealing extra damage to a foe who has attacked an ally, then an avenger/paladin team would be very effective by complimenting each other without overlapping. I'm anxious to see how the avenger eventually turns out.
EDIT: The class might even bring back the "deity's preferred weapon proficiency" as a class feature
As a blunt object.
I hope that when they said that an Avenger uses holy symbols they meant like this:
Mcnancy, whats the first image from?
Movie "Gangs of New York"
Movie "Gangs of New York"
Ahh ok. I haven't seen that movie before. I just thought I might have recognized John C. Reilly and Liam Neeson.
I just thought I might have recognized John C. Reilly and Liam Neeson.
You did
I hope Kobolds are a good fit with Avengers.:D
if they are strikers they will...shifty for the win
if they are strikers they will...shifty for the win
Except against Fighters. Being shifty can work against you some times.
Going to have shield proficiencies and powers or bonuses related to using a shield in combat as a definite weapon and defense along with unarmed combat. As well as have an Inspiring/Fear effect by shouting "Avengers, assemble!" which would give a moral state boost to teammates and enemies within hear/sight would get a minus.
If anyone can't guess the humor, please let me be plain. They probably made THEY class to make Captain America. And am I the only one who when I saw the class name Avenger wanted to play it, no matter what, only so I could say "Avengers, assemble!" in the game for laughs? Come on, I can't be the only one! Okay, I'll do my serious speculation next post.
Okay, we have Paladins, Divine Defender. Cleric, Leader. Invoker, Controller(Having been paying attention to speculations, but I think that's what people are saying). Anyway, the Avenger seems by default to be Striker.
But when it comes down to it, Paladins/Clerics' abilities tend to help out teammates in giving them bonuses in general, or specific bonuses to certain foes. What I'd like to see in the Avenger is a striker who channels divine power to boost HIMSELF over all others. To not have a healing ability, as handy as it can be. Or at least, the healing ability is only for the Avenger, not for others. A "selfish" divine class if you will. Their abilities will enhance their own stats and abilities thus helping them strike down opponents better.
They wont exactly be "helping" others like the Paladin/Clerics but their own form would be the idea that if they can increase their own abilities through divine beef up then they're helping others by becoming stronger attackers. I think I'd like to see that in the Avenger, I honestly believe it'd be unique and interesting just because it'd be a divine class bent on itself not others.
Something else I'd like to see, which I was going to add to my "silly" speculation, but in truth I think it'd be nice, and could work for Avenger. The idea that you can get bonuses or things for having teammates.
Like if you hit zero or less HP, you can still move and fight normally as long as you have 2 or more standing teammates in sight. You'd still make death rolls, but you would go unconscious. Like the feat in 3.5 but adapted in 4.0. I think that'd be a cool feature.
I am thinking of Buffy/Castlevania, and hope the class has access to a Whip styled weapons.
Something like the Shadow Bane Stalker, Vigilante and Streetfighter of 3E (all Complete Adventurer iirc) but with a holy flavour.
I'm hoping for an agile hunter/fighter. Not a sneaky striker, but a mobile and versatile Fighter.
I am thinking of Buffy/Castlevania, and hope the class has access to a Whip styled weapons.
Something like the Shadow Bane Stalker, Vigilante and Streetfighter of 3E (all Complete Adventurer iirc) but with a holy flavour.
Ahh ok. I haven't seen that movie before. I just thought I might have recognized John C. Reilly and Liam Neeson.
At first I thought the short guy on the right was Michael Palin and flashed back to the lynch mob in Holy Grail. "She's a witch! Burn her, burn her!" :P
Come on, it's too perfect.
Com'on give us some vampire slayers!
Would be even better if the whip mastery feats could work on a divine class. But sadly...
Oh god. That would become my most favorite class ever. Avenger with Whips or Chain flails.
Would be even better if the whip mastery feats could work on a divine class. But sadly...
Maybe the avenger get's a trait to count as a martial class for feat access
I don't have MP, so I'm not sure if this would work, but if they take any of the Ranger/Rogue/Fighter/Warlord cross-class feats, would they qualify?
The weapon mastery feats are in the Gladiator Dragon article not MP. And no you wouldn't qualify as the weapon mastery feats are considered multiclass feats so by taking the multiclass feat for a martial class, you aren't able to take the weapon mastery feats.
Although bards might be able to, I would have to check on the wording of a couple of things though before I said one way or another with that.
Okay, first I HAVE to get this outta the way. My silly speculation on the Avenger:
Going to have shield proficiencies and powers or bonuses related to using a shield in combat as a definite weapon and defense along with unarmed combat. As well as have an Inspiring/Fear effect by shouting "Avengers, assemble!" which would give a moral state boost to teammates and enemies within hear/sight would get a minus.
If anyone can't guess the humor, please let me be plain. They probably made THEY class to make Captain America. And am I the only one who when I saw the class name Avenger wanted to play it, no matter what, only so I could say "Avengers, assemble!" in the game for laughs? Come on, I can't be the only one! Okay, I'll do my serious speculation next post.
Pfft. That's what the Warlord is for. Cap's obviously a Warlord.
In fact, this pretty much told us it was an Avenger, since he disclosed it was a Striker, Eladrin, and had low Charisma.
So Eladrin race rules out Barbarian, and low Charisma rules out Sorcerer.
I think this could also mean at least one build encourages light armor (God knows how relieved I am).
In fact, this pretty much told us it was an Avenger, since he disclosed it was a Striker, Eladrin, and had low Charisma.
So Eladrin race rules out Barbarian, and low Charisma rules out Sorcerer
How does Eladrin rule out barbarian?
How does Eladrin rule out barbarian?
Eladrin make dreadful Barbarians?
Eladrin make dreadful Barbarians?
And pansy ones.
His charisma is only 10, which doesn't give a bonus, but he's a striker so those points needed to go into strength. He has low charisma because he's arrogant and that puts people off. Hey, he's an Eladrin and he spent fifty years studying [redacted] at [redacted] so his social skills are a little lacking. It's like a football player who is tough but not particularly smart.
So we have Strength as primary, nearly for sure. And I think the studying and the Eladrin's bonus puts Intelligence solidly among the secondaries of one build.
It's fairly sure that the other build will use Wisdom or Dexterity, with Wisdom being more probable due to divine nature. Constitution doesn't look like a probable true secondary stat for an already Str-based class.
All of this if we assume the Avenger to have one primary and two secondaries. Things could change a bit if we'll get two primaries and one secondary.
EDIT: I didn't notice the "not particularly smart". Maybe we'll get some kind of inverse Brutal Scoundrel, with Str primary and Dex secondary, but I don't know... Maybe he was only referring to his social skills, since he was telling about them.
So we have Strength as primary, nearly for sure. And I think the studying and the Eladrin's bonus puts Intelligence solidly among the secondaries of one build.
It's fairly sure that the other build will use Wisdom or Dexterity, with Wisdom being more probable due to divine nature. Constitution doesn't look like a probable true secondary stat for an already Str-based class.
All of this if we assume the Avenger to have one primary and two secondaries. Things could change a bit if we'll get two primaries and one secondary.
EDIT: I didn't notice the "not particularly smart". Maybe we'll get some kind of inverse Brutal Scoundrel, with Str primary and Dex secondary, but I don't know... Maybe he was only referring to his social skills, since he was telling about them.
To be honest, it reads like he's talking about playing an Eladrin Barbarian.
http://www.wocstudios.com/avatar.htm
There's one reason to seriously consider Int and/or Dex as at least secondary abilities for the Avenger: it is nearly sure that the class playtested by Wil Wheaton was the Avenger, and the race he had chosen for it was Eladrin
In fact, this pretty much told us it was an Avenger, since he disclosed it was a Striker, Eladrin, and had low Charisma.
So Eladrin race rules out Barbarian, and low Charisma rules out Sorcerer.
I think this could also mean at least one build encourages light armor (God knows how relieved I am).
I'm guessing Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom for Avenger stats. Eladrin have a good DEX score, which would make them useful for this kind of divine class. It's possible that WIS will be the primary, and STR and DEX will be the secondary stats. This would fit in with the prediction of there being both a melee build concentrating on two-handed weapons, and a ranged build concentrating on bows and/or holy symbols. STR/DEX and STR/WIS are another possibility.
Just a weird feeling, are we sure its the Avenger? William O'Connor is the guy who did all of the art in the class sections in the PHB and I found a piece called the 'Avatar' on his art website. Just want to dispel this thought in my head since they both start with an 'A'
http://www.wocstudios.com/avatar.htm
From another thread.
Player's Handbook 2 - Avenger Power Cards: A 4th Edition D&D Accessory
Just a weird feeling, are we sure its the Avenger? William O'Connor is the guy who did all of the art in the class sections in the PHB and I found a piece called the 'Avatar' on his art website. Just want to dispel this thought in my head since they both start with an 'A'
http://www.wocstudios.com/avatar.htm
I'm pretty sure that at least from "Scoundrel" to the last one, they are 3.5 artworks. Possibly, the drow one (particularly good, isn't it?) is the first 4e artwork (from the bottom). But I never seen it anywhere so it could be from "Dragon Bridge" to the top that we see 4e art.
Plus, it seems the latest pieces come from PHb1, so I doubt we see anything from PHb2 there.
EDIT: Thanks Erol for pointing to the artist's website, I think I made a scoop..! :D WIZARDS GET FAMILIARS IN ARCANE POWER (it was announced already, but here we get to see one)
Or this:
I don't think so Rikji. I mean normally 'studying something at somewhere' isn't something I associate with barbarians.
But it is an Eladrin ... having an education is one of their racial traits, barbarian or no.
But it is an Eladrin ... having an education is one of their racial traits, barbarian or no.
Do you seriously think that in such a "high-level" playtest, with celebrities like Wil invited and unreleased classes rolling, Wil himself would play an Eladrin Barbarian?
But it is an Eladrin ... having an education is one of their racial traits, barbarian or no.
I still don't see Eladrin barbarians referring to having Study something Somewhere. They might have Eladrin education but thats not the same as truly 'studying something for 45 years'
Can't expect too much though, the latest classes were not exactly rich in the flavor department...
Do you seriously think that in such a "high-level" playtest, with celebrities like Wil invited and unreleased classes rolling, Wil himself would play an Eladrin Barbarian?
Having never met him, I can't say. I'm not a barbrian player myself, but I do know people who would probably play a barbarian regardless of what else was offered. I'm simply pointing out that nothing he said necessarily points to a class we don't already know about.
Clerics are the basic foot soldiers, priests who have basic military training (as evidenced by chain and basic melee/ranged proficiency). They are probably the most numerous in a church, able to fulfill mundane roles and fill out military ranks if needed.
Paladins are the elite soldiers of the church. They get the better armor and training, and as such probably are probably given leeway to skirt the mundane duties of a cleric in favor of more courtly activities. They are the personal guard to kings (or kings/nobility themselves), the leaders of divine armies, and/or the holy warrior a step ahead of most of his companions.
Invokers are the rare favored soul or the scholar who delved into the deepest of divine tomes. Invokers are beyond hierarchy, guarded treasures or held at arms length. They are the secret weapons of the church, like the Paladin in that they perform little to no mundane duties, but very limited military training (chain and simple weapons again), and without the acclaim/glory/etc.
So where does that leave Avengers? Well, first, I could easily see such Cleric/Paladin features* from 3e as Deity's Favored Weapon (proficiency and maybe +damage when in Chain or lighter armor?), Smite, and Auras (the limit of their "leaderish-ness") making an appearance with the Avenger. Based on that, perhaps they are the shock troops of the church, crusading zealots far beyond what the Paladin represents. They emanate holy (or unholy) fervor, and seek to destroy those who stand in their deity's/alignment's way. I could see them being a blurring of the line between the Striker and the Defender role, too, probably similar in toughness to the sturdier Barbarian we can expect in PH2.
In the Church, they could be the Inquisitors, punishing Clerics who didn't perform necessary rites, or who allowed corruption into their ranks. They could also fulfill the same role as Paladins, elite troops and general face of the church, but perhaps less honorably/nobly and more similar to classic Barbarians, scaring the living daylights out of their opponents and perhaps being rather brutal in upholding church law.
Alas, I guess we shall see in about a month and a half. Personally, I am hopeful... the divine power source is currently my favorite group of classes, and I'm praying to Bahamut for the Avenger to be something interesting and fun.
*I know these features could be tacked onto the Cleric or Paladin classes in DP, but I think at this point they'd make the classes feel too bulky. I rather like the idea of Avenger's picking them up, the more I think about it.
I'm incredibly happy: CLOTH ARMOR AND EXTRA HP!
The rest can be anything, I'm already happy with this unexpected and needed burst of originality.
Interesting little peek.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/maijstral/Avenger004.jpg
Direct links to the character sheet. Maybe it's me, but I can barely read some of the powers. It looks like they get a curse/quarry-like ability that instead of damage lets them make two attack rolls against the target if it's the only enemy adjacent to them, and use the higher result. Their powers also seem to focus heavily on both personal and enemy movement.
Certainly not what I expected at all. Interesting.
Seems like some form of mercy less hunter, rahter than you moving away from them, you make them want to run away and then hunt them down.
This class totally screams inquisitor to me. I kinda love it. Im just hoping they have a ranged build using crossbows and such. Then again could just multi class rogue to make Von Helsing. Avenger and Invoker are the first two divine classes that Id really enjoy playing. Never been a fan of the paladin though I do like the new one and Im not really a cleric player but these two classes almost make me want to play a divine character.
I KICK ARSE FOR THE LORD!
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/maijstral/Avenger001.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/maijstral/Avenger004.jpg
Direct links to the character sheet. Maybe it's me, but I can barely read some of the powers. It looks like they get a curse/quarry-like ability that instead of damage lets them make two attack rolls against the target if it's the only enemy adjacent to them, and use the higher result. Their powers also seem to focus heavily on both personal and enemy movement.
Certainly not what I expected at all. Interesting.
The quarry-like power lets them roll twice and use either result (dunno why you'd not use the higher result, but...). Additionally, from what I can read, it doesn't override any other roll-twice powers (so if an effect makes you roll twice and take the lower, the Avenger's power doesn't have any effect).