The Compendium has been updated and…
The Battlemind isn't in it. Yet the Battlemind PPaths and Feats are.
Well, I guess we'll have to wait half a month after all.
On the positive side, we now know the other Battlemind Rider: Charisma.
Update went live and I saw it in the patch notes. Updating now.
Battlemind is in.
The servers are down at the moment, so they are probably solving this problem at the moment.
I can only assume it's a mistake, since the PPaths and Feats are in the Compendium from the same Debut article that will be seen later this month.
Otherwise, Mac users would be getting the shaft for not being able to use the CharBuilder. I doubt this is the case however, since I have faith in WotC, though I do think that they make some mistakes now and then, like here.
It's the fist of the PH3 classes I don't think I'll ever be playing. Imo the class is very dry and flavourless and not at all on a par with the Psion, Seeker or Monk.
Oh well, I guess I'll be keeping my Charladin.
Edit: I just recalled Bull's Strength and Iron Fist from the scans at Critical Hits, and I like those, so maybe I really do just need to see it in totality before I make a real judgement call.
I'm too am hopeing it'll be improved when we can get the other build.
I find the set-up of the class rather interesting. It's mark basically forces enemies to provoke legit OA, and he has a bunch of daily powers that are stances that give him way better OA than normal. I do believe the battlemind will be significantly more fun in play than it appears on paper.
The problem is that Blurred Step is an opportunity action, and you can only make one OA per enemy's turn. An enemy can shift away, forcing you to follow him, and then run around nilly willy doing whatever they want and you can't punish them because you've already spent your OA for the turn. Mix this in with the million different ways that an enemy can get out of your melee range even if you use Blurred Step (such as tactics as simple as being diagonal from you) and that Mind Spike is melee 1 range and pretty pathetic even if you get to use it and, well, you've got the worst defender in the game by far.
I find the set-up of the class rather interesting. It's mark basically forces enemies to provoke legit OA, and he has a bunch of daily powers that are stances that give him way better OA than normal. I do believe the battlemind will be significantly more fun in play than it appears on paper.
The problem is that Blurred Step is an opportunity action, and you can only make one OA per enemy's turn. An enemy can shift away, forcing you to follow him, and then run around nilly willy doing whatever they want and you can't punish them because you've already spent your OA for the turn. Mix this in with the million different ways that an enemy can get out of your melee range even if you use Blurred Step (such as tactics as simple as being diagonal from you) and that Mind Spike is melee 1 range and pretty pathetic even if you get to use it and, well, you've got the worst defender in the game by far.
I guess that'll make the Assaultmage happy.
I guess that'll make the Assaultmage happy.
That's a pretty good comparison. The Battlemind is an Assault Swordmage that:
- Has to be adjacent to the opponent to punish them for breaking the mark
- Does significantly less damage per punishment and gets no boosts to this damage
- Doesn't have a good opportunity attack
- And doesn't have powers that do a lot of damage
[boggle]
Khift: You're right, I did overlook the fact that blurred step uses your OA, but most monsters can't shift as a minor action. So unless they're content to charge every turn, it seems they will either have to provoke an OA when they move away, or attack while adjacent to the Battlemind (assuming they started off adjacent, that is). Thus the Battlemind will get to use either Mindspike (Which has no attack roll) or an OA.
I find the set-up of the class rather interesting. It's mark basically forces enemies to provoke legit OA, and he has a bunch of daily powers that are stances that give him way better OA than normal. I do believe the battlemind will be significantly more fun in play than it appears on paper.
The problem is that Blurred Step is an opportunity action, and you can only make one OA per enemy's turn. An enemy can shift away, forcing you to follow him, and then run around nilly willy doing whatever they want and you can't punish them because you've already spent your OA for the turn. Mix this in with the million different ways that an enemy can get out of your melee range even if you use Blurred Step (such as tactics as simple as being diagonal from you) and that Mind Spike is melee 1 range and pretty pathetic even if you get to use it and, well, you've got the worst defender in the game by far.
Unfortunately you are reading the powers wrong... yes Blurred Step is an opportunity action, but Mind Spike is not, it is an immediate reaction. This means that the target will either have to shift away, which you can follow immediately and then (you use your immediate reaction) take auto mind spike damage, stand still and take auto mind spike damage, or move and provoke a normal attack of opportunity. I fail to see how that could suck in any way?
I think this is a pretty damn cool mark.
XXXXXXX
XXMXXXX
XXXBXXX
XXXXXXX
M = monster, B = battlemind
M shifts diagonally away, like so:
XMXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXBXXX
XXXXXXX
This provokes Blurred Step, which occurs before the monster's shift chronologically. Here's the squares the Battlemind can move into:
XXXXXXX
XXMooXX
XXoBoXX
XXoooXX
o= square the Battlemind can shift into with Blurred Step
See the problem? No square he can shift into will leave him adjacent to the monster after the monster shifts. The moral of the story? Don't be diagonally adjacent to a monster as a Battlemind. Dumb as hell, isn't it?
Additionally, Mindspike does have an attack roll to hit -- theirs. When you boil it down, after considering their chance to hit or miss and the relatively low damage most monsters do anyways it's just not a threat at all. You end up dealing significantly, significantly less damage per mark violation than any other defender except for Shielding Swordmages (which obviously have different effects on mark violation than damage).
When you boil it down, soldiers and brutes and some skirmishers are perfectly happy to shift and charge. Controllers don't give a rats ass about you reflecting damage, since their damage is so low anyways (but their control is so high), and lurkers and skirmishers almost all have ways to escape you that you cannot stop. The only class of monster battleminds are actually equipped to control are artillery, and they don't even do a terribly good job of that either.
Unfortunately you are reading the powers wrong... yes Blurred Step is an opportunity action, but Mind Spike is not, it is an immediate reaction. This means that the target will either have to shift away, which you can follow immediately and then (you use your immediate reaction) take auto mind spike damage, stand still and take auto mind spike damage, or move and provoke a normal attack of opportunity. I fail to see how that could suck in any way?
I think this is a pretty damn cool mark.
Mind spike is melee 1, and every class of enemy has a way to get away from your reach before receiving any punishment. That's the problem.
I guess one small consolation is that a battlemind might be able to keep soldiers and the like from doing much besides Basic attacks? I do agree though, it looks severely underpowered.
Aside from that minor over sight... the class looks pretty good imo.
Hopefully there'll be feats that fix this class in PHB3. Or just something to turn Mind Spike into a close burst 5 instead of melee 1. It's already the weakest of the defender's punishing mechanics, why can't it just be used at range?
Meh, that is nothing but a simple oversight. I'm sure the developers only made blurred step an AoO so it would not burn the IR. All it requires is a simple ammendment to the rule stating that the battlemind is allowed to move after or into the targets square momentarily.... definately not something to over react about.
Aside from that minor over sight... the class looks pretty good imo.
It's one of many problems. Even if that were fixed, the class would still be completely incapable of controlling 2/3rds of all monsters in the game and it still has the weakest punishing mechanic tied to the mark we've seen yet. It's possible it could yet be playable, but the hill it has to climb to get there is so steep it isn't even funny.
TASagent: The Blurred Step OA also occurs before the enemy moves. This means you move before they do, so you cannot move into the square they're leaving. This makes this scenario a nightmare:
XXXXXXX
XXMXXXX
XXXBXXX
XXXXXXX
M = monster, B = battlemind
M shifts diagonally away, like so:
XMXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXBXXX
XXXXXXX
This provokes Blurred Step, which occurs before the monster's shift chronologically. Here's the squares the Battlemind can move into:
XXXXXXX
XXMooXX
XXoBoXX
XXoooXX
o= square the Battlemind can shift into with Blurred Step
See the problem? No square he can shift into will leave him adjacent to the monster after the monster shifts. The moral of the story? Don't be diagonally adjacent to a monster as a Battlemind. Dumb as hell, isn't it?
Additionally, Mindspike does have an attack roll to hit -- theirs. When you boil it down, after considering their chance to hit or miss and the relatively low damage most monsters do anyways it's just not a threat at all. You end up dealing significantly, significantly less damage per mark violation than any other defender except for Shielding Swordmages (which obviously have different effects on mark violation than damage).
When you boil it down, soldiers and brutes and some skirmishers are perfectly happy to shift and charge. Controllers don't give a rats ass about you reflecting damage, since their damage is so low anyways (but their control is so high), and lurkers and skirmishers almost all have ways to escape you that you cannot stop. The only class of monster battleminds are actually equipped to control are artillery, and they don't even do a terribly good job of that either.
WHile you make good point, there is one square adjacent to the monster after shifting that the battlemind can enter. At least what I understand adjacent to be (withinone square in any direction), if the BM shifts vertically one it will still be diagonally within one square of the monster.
I'm hoping that there is something we are missing, I like psionics and I like defenders so I want to like the psionic defender (looking over it now). I don't want to think that wotc didn't playtest this and realize these obvious flaws, so I'm keeping an open mind. Things slip through, but this is pretty big stuff so maybe in the article we'll get an explanation of how this is supposed to work.
A paladin can do 10-15 or more damage per violation of the mark even in heroic tier, with no hit roll, every time the target tries to violate the mark. They also don't have to be adjacent to their mark to enforce it.
A fighter, even with a solid defensive focus, can do 15-20 damage at about 80% hit rate every time they try to violate the mark within the same time frame, and significantly more than that if they focus on damage. He can also apply any number of various effects as riders to this enforcement, some of which are extremely potent.
Wardens are in the same scenario as fighters -- 80% hit chance of 15-20 damage every time they try to violate the mark, and significantly more damage if the warden is using a 2-hander and focusing on damage. He can also apply any number of various effects as riders to this enforcement, some of which are extremely potent.
Swordmages are a little different; shielding swordmages don't do any damage, but massively decrease the amount the monster deals per hit, which is extremely effective in play. Assault swordmages are in the same damage range as any other two-hander using defender, but can only make the attack if the monster succeeds in hitting, however, they don't have to be adjacent to their mark to enforce it, which is a bit of a save for them. And ensnaring swordmages just suck, I completely admit.
The battlemind, on the other hand, gets 8-30 damage (at late heroic tier) on a 40-50% chance to hit (remember the marked -2 to hit penalty is being applied), has to be adjacent to the target to enforce it, and cannot increase the damage he does in any way, and so far has no riders or other effects that occur as part of his enforcement.
Where's the upside? The battlemind's mark is weaker than the hybrid paladin mark for crying out loud. And that's pretty bad.
@jedi123
If he shifts vertically one, he's still not in melee range. It'd look like this:
XMXXXXX
XXXBXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
Well that's the issue: It doesn't do anything on a miss.
A paladin can do 10-15 or more damage per violation of the mark even in heroic tier, with no hit roll, every time the target tries to violate the mark. They also don't have to be adjacent to their mark to enforce it.
A fighter, even with a solid defensive focus, can do 15-20 damage at about 80% hit rate every time they try to violate the mark within the same time frame, and significantly more than that if they focus on damage. He can also apply any number of various effects as riders to this enforcement, some of which are extremely potent.
Wardens are in the same scenario as fighters -- 80% hit chance of 15-20 damage every time they try to violate the mark, and significantly more damage if the warden is using a 2-hander and focusing on damage. He can also apply any number of various effects as riders to this enforcement, some of which are extremely potent.
Swordmages are a little different; shielding swordmages don't do any damage, but massively decrease the amount the monster deals per hit, which is extremely effective in play. Assault swordmages are in the same damage range as any other two-hander using defender, but can only make the attack if the monster succeeds in hitting, however, they don't have to be adjacent to their mark to enforce it, which is a bit of a save for them. And ensnaring swordmages just suck, I completely admit.
The battlemind, on the other hand, gets 8-30 damage (at late heroic tier) on a 40-50% chance to hit (remember the marked -2 to hit penalty is being applied), has to be adjacent to the target to enforce it, and cannot increase the damage he does in any way, and so far has no riders or other effects that occur as part of his enforcement.
Where's the upside? The battlemind's mark is weaker than the hybrid paladin mark for crying out loud. And that's pretty bad.
@jedi123
If he shifts vertically one, he's still not in melee range. It'd look like this:
XMXXXXX
XXXBXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
You're right I got confused with all the x's blurring together my bad. The stance power they get looks to help with this, until you realize you can't blurred step and then use it when they charge away from you. Also they seem focused on preventing the enemy from hitting at all, since one of the powers can add a blind status, and another inflicts a penalty to attack based off adjacent allies. There has to be a missing part, whats the point of having all these conflicting oa's. But we have 3 oa's at level 1 with this simple preview article: Blurred step, augment 1 Twisted Eye (or what ever), and the power granted by Steel Unity Strike. 2 of these are at wills and one is useable twice per encounter (at level 1).
Telepathic challenge, marks a large number of creatures, helping ensure you'll get something off. Psionic Speed can allow you to mark several creatures as well.
Spectral legion is another attack penalty, but has an immobilizing effect at augment 2, helps keep them close). Beckoning Strike (another stance granted power) pulls the enemy back to you when they move without shifting. Intellect hammer adds a dazed effect (and aditional pp is alway useful).
Thats just looking to level 10. I can see some uses, and I have a feeling the quick battlemind is the striker variant, so the contoller variant is probablly(read: hopefully) more sticky. I will wait to pass judgement till it comes out in full, or until the preview article tells us they get and additional oa per turn or something of the sort.
Another thing to consider is that this build we are looking at essentially has no feat support what-so-ever. This is pretty significant.
It's fluff is pathetic. I'm a fighter and I have psionic powers. And that's freaking it.
It's mechanics... suck. There's no other way to describe it.
In my game, IF anyone is willing to play one, I'm turning Blurred Step into a once-per-round Free Action. That may salvage it.
It needs a lot of buffing, and it needs it fast. It's by far the worst class on the game right now. As somebody up there said, it just doesn't scream ''PLAY ME'' in any way.
It's fluff is pathetic. I'm a fighter and I have psionic powers. And that's freaking it.
It's mechanics... suck. There's no other way to describe it.
In my game, IF anyone is willing to play one, I'm turning Blurred Step into a once-per-round Free Action. That may salvage it.
Not sure how that would help since they can already do it more often than once-per-round... since this power is an opportunity action and doesn't interfere with their Mind Spike immediate reaction usage.
This was discused previously already in this thread. The main problem for the battlemind per se, stems from their mark triggering on an ally taking damage.
Again however this is one build with no feat support.
Not sure how that would help since they can already do it more often than once-per-round...
Freeing up the character's Opportunity Action means that it can still make an Opportunity Attack (in case the enemy decides to shift+charge or shift+ranged). Of course, STR is a dump stat for Battleminds, so without Melee Training, it's not that great, and you know how much people bitch about feat taxes.
EDIT: Really? "Bitch" doesn't get filtered? O_o
It needs a lot of buffing, and it needs it fast. It's by far the worst class on the game right now. As somebody up there said, it just doesn't scream ''PLAY ME'' in any way.
It's fluff is pathetic. I'm a fighter and I have psionic powers. And that's freaking it.
It's mechanics... suck. There's no other way to describe it.
In my game, IF anyone is willing to play one, I'm turning Blurred Step into a once-per-round Free Action. That may salvage it.
Not sure how that would help since they can already do it more often than once-per-round... since this power is an opportunity action and doesn't interfere with their Mind Spike immediate reaction usage.
This was discused previously already in this thread. The main problem for the battlemind per se, stems from their mark triggering on an ally taking damage.
Again however this is one build with no feat support.
The problem is that mind spike requires the enemy to be adjacent, and the battlemind has no way to keep them adjacent. If they shift away, he can follow, but then the enemy can just charge someone and the battlemind is powerless to help.
It needs a lot of buffing, and it needs it fast. It's by far the worst class on the game right now. As somebody up there said, it just doesn't scream ''PLAY ME'' in any way.
It's fluff is pathetic. I'm a fighter and I have psionic powers. And that's freaking it.
It's mechanics... suck. There's no other way to describe it.
In my game, IF anyone is willing to play one, I'm turning Blurred Step into a once-per-round Free Action. That may salvage it.
Not sure how that would help since they can already do it more often than once-per-round... since this power is an opportunity action and doesn't interfere with their Mind Spike immediate reaction usage.
This was discused previously already in this thread. The main problem for the battlemind per se, stems from their mark triggering on an ally taking damage.
Again however this is one build with no feat support.
The problem is that mind spike requires the enemy to be adjacent, and the battlemind has no way to keep them adjacent. If they shift away, he can follow, but then the enemy can just charge someone and the battlemind is powerless to help.
Well they do have an ability that dazes, meaning that they can shift or charge but not both. They also have a low level at-will power that when augmented can immobolize, keeping their prey near by. Perfect selections? No, and they need more. I assume however we will get more of these with the second half of the class.
Paladin's and Fighters are currently in their own class when it comes to defending in my experience. It would be unfair to expect any new class to compete without a year of support and maybe even that won't be enough.
Not sure how that would help since they can already do it more often than once-per-round...
Freeing up the character's Opportunity Action means that it can still make an Opportunity Attack (in case the enemy decides to shift+charge or shift+ranged)
This is a valid point I had not actually considered. My initial impression was that the post 1st level at wills are suppose to fill in some of these gaps. Besides, everyone complains about this problem with the Warden also but I have never really found this to be much of a problem. (edit) Since as a player you can generally tell which targets will try to employ this tactic or try to gain distance.... and when you know this you can generally lock these targets down with slowing/immobilizing powers.
Curiously, if the enemies response to the Battlemind is the ability to shift + charge....you've effectively limited the creature to making just basic attacks. With most standard monsters, that's a good thing. And if your fighting an elite or solo...well...then when you DO land mindspike, it's going to hurt that much more, wouldn't it?
Solos, in my experience, tend to have ladles of AoE damage. Mind spike on an AoE attack is very underwhelming; it reflects the damage of one hit, not all of them. Sometimes they do have heavy hitting single target attacks, but for the most part it's usually spread out.
Curiously, if the enemies response to the Battlemind is the ability to shift + charge....you've effectively limited the creature to making just basic attacks. With most standard monsters, that's a good thing. And if your fighting an elite or solo...well...then when you DO land mindspike, it's going to hurt that much more, wouldn't it?
Solos, in my experience, tend to have ladles of AoE damage. Mind spike on an AoE attack is very underwhelming; it reflects the damage of one hit, not all of them. Sometimes they do have heavy hitting single target attacks, but for the most part it's usually spread out.
And, if the solo can manage to include the battlemind in the attack, it's once again useless! Since Mindspike only goes off if you are adjacent, any AoE is going to completely shut down the battlemind.
You have to be adjacent, but you can't be attacked. Very lame.
They're all *PENALTY GAMES*
Seriously; if you were building the Pharoah as a D&D character, he'd be this guy.
The problem is that Blurred Step is an opportunity action, and you can only make one OA per enemy's turn. An enemy can shift away, forcing you to follow him, and then run around nilly willy doing whatever they want and you can't punish them because you've already spent your OA for the turn.
Most NPCs get:
- 1 standard action
- 1 move action
- 1 minor action.
If they walk away from you, you can have a basic melee attack or you can shift 1 square.
If they use a move action to shift away from you, you can shift 1 square. They then have to spend a standard action to move, thus meaning they don't get to make an attack. If they attack with you adjacent to them, you can't make a basic melee attack, but you can use Mind Spike which is an Immediate Reaction.
The best tactic for an enemy to get around a battlemind is to shift away and charge someone that isn't adjacent to the Battlemind. If the Battlemind follows you and shifts with you, then they lose their OA against you and you can ignore them. If the Battlemind doesn't shift with you, then they still get to make a basic melee attack if you provoke from them. As such your best bet is to charge someone else while avoiding the Battlemind. While at low levels this isn't particularly inconvenient, most enemies tend to get better powers that aren't basic melee attacks as they increase in levels.
The Battlemind will require a party that thinks and acts tactically. Staying close to the Battlemind is your safest bet. Alternatively if you've got a lot of Ranged characters behind you and the enemy can't get to them without provoking an OA, then don't use your silly Blurred Step power. Instead simply make a basic melee attack. If the terrain and party positioning is ideal then they'll first have to provoke an attack of Opportunity from you (basic melee attack) AND you can still use your Mind Spike power on them.
you've got the worst defender in the game by far.
Having played a Warden, Fighter and Swordmage on a regular basis, I'm confident in saying that Swordmage is still much worse then a Battlemind, assuming your party actually uses tactics in combat. If you're playing in a pickup game with strangers (such as LFR) then yes, the Battlemind may be the worst defender ever. But I hope to god WotC doesn't start dumbing down D&D enough to cater to the "random pickup game" crowd. As fun as those games can be, D&D would suffer from it IMO as all classes would essentially have to do all things because you never know when you'll turn up to a table with 5 controllers.
I'm a DM who's monsters make a living off of shifting and charging away from a Warden.
As someone with a level 6 Warden, they do require tactics. Fighters are about dueling with a specific enemy and dealing lots of damage. Wardens are about inconveniencing enemies, trying to tie up as many enemies as possible. I can't stop everyone I mark from attacking my allies. But I can stop a couple. Fighters are fairly nice and simple and safe to put in anyone's hands and say "have fun." Wardens IMO aren't anywhere near as easy to play. That said....
Actually, let me say that when my monsters have a high fort (say my Iron Golem from two weeks ago), I don't even bother. Even better is just moving away since they can't stop you on a OA like a fighter.
Your player gets to make a basic melee attack (which will target AC) and if they're not completely incompetent they've taken the "Sudden Roots" feat. As such, high fort is irrelevant.
IMO Sudden Roots is simply a MUST for a Warden player. Sure you can't stop movement, but as long as you co-ordinate with your allies in their positioning in combat, its almost just as good. Coupled with a reach weapon even better (I use a longsword because I have a strong emotional attachment to the weapon rather than for tactical reasons).
This also ties in with what other people have been saying. We're getting half a class with no feat support. I would wait until we get the finished product before looking too poorly upon the class.
It's in the DesDev archive now (tricksy).
They explain very well that the Battlemind was -designed- to go after bigger prey. Dealing with the little one's is a Controller's job – one that many Defenders take on as a secondary job, but one that isn't necessary for a Defender.
If they walk away from you, you can have a basic melee attack or you can shift 1 square.
Uh, no. If they shift, you can shift 1 square or stay put. You don't get the option to OA them if they shift away.
If they use a move action to shift away from you, you can shift 1 square. They then have to spend a standard action to move, thus meaning they don't get to make an attack. If they attack with you adjacent to them, you can't make a basic melee attack, but you can use Mind Spike which is an Immediate Reaction.
Unless they're diagonal from you, in which case you cannot pursue them after a shift. 50% chance to be rendered useless by poorly worded abilities. (4 of the 8 squares adjacent to you are diagonal.)
If they attack someone else while adjacent to you, you can either have a basic melee attack or use your Mind Spike power.
Uh, no, you just get the mind spike. Unless they're doing ranged attacks, in which case they can just shift away to force you to blow your one OA and still only eat the mind spike damage.
The Battlemind will require a party that thinks and acts tactically. Staying close to the Battlemind is your safest bet. Alternatively if you've got a lot of Ranged characters behind you and the enemy can't get to them without provoking an OA, then don't use your silly Blurred Step power. Instead simply make a basic melee attack. If the terrain and party positioning is ideal then they'll first have to provoke an attack of Opportunity from you (basic melee attack) AND you can still use your Mind Spike power on them.
Having played a Warden, Fighter and Swordmage on a regular basis, I'm confident in saying that Swordmage is still much worse then a Battlemind, assuming your party actually uses tactics in combat. If you're playing in a pickup game with strangers (such as LFR) then yes, the Battlemind may be the worst defender ever. But I hope to god WotC doesn't start dumbing down D&D enough to cater to the "random pickup game" crowd. As fun as those games can be, D&D would suffer from it IMO as all classes would essentially have to do all things because you never know when you'll turn up to a table with 5 controllers.
The fact that you can make up for your defender's suckiness by carrying him isn't a compelling argument for the defender sucking. Sure, if everyone bunches up and sticks together they're really easy to defend. That doesn't mean that the Battlemind will do any better at defending a bunched up party than a Fighter, Warden, or Paladin would. The Fighter/Warden/Paladin would be absolutely dominating; the Battlemind, however, would only be functioning. Every party can use tactics to make their defender more useful. That the Battlemind needs those tactics just to function is a huge downside, one that no other defender really has to make (except assault/ensnaring SMs).
This class is just straight up HALF-***ED.
Why would a class focused on being fast use Heavy Armor or use a Shield?... ???
I thought this was supposed to be the Samurai class that could deflect arrows with their sword and do air slashes and run up walls and stuff.
What the hell happened?!?!?!?
If they shift, you can shift 1 square or stay put. You don't get the option to OA them if they shift away.
That's why I very specifically said walk away.
Unless they're diagonal from you, in which case you cannot pursue them after a shift. 50% chance to be rendered useless by poorly worded abilities.
I'm guessing this is an issue because of the fact that Blurred Step is an OA. As a DM I would feel like a real **** for forcing that rule onto my player, and I'd be more then a bit annoyed if I got stuck with a DM that did this. Sure by RAW it might be true, but thank I don't play by the letter RAW.
Uh, no, you just get the mind spike. Unless they're doing ranged attacks, in which case they can just shift away to force you to blow your one OA and still only eat the mind spike damage.
Yeah, I'm not sure what I was getting at there. I think I stopped posting that sentence midstream and never got back to it. Thanks, I've deleted it.
Every party can use tactics to make their defender more useful.
I wish that were the case. But it isn't. Fighters and Paladins are fairly friendly to parties who don't use much tactics. The fact other classes require tactics doesn't mean those classes suck. They're different. They require more thought and cause combat to play out differently due to the different tactics you must employ. If you don't like that, so be it. But I like it as it adds variety. Given I often get stuck playing a defender (I rather enjoy the role if I've got enough classes to play so I don't have to keep playing fighters or wardens) so I enjoy different types of defenders that require different tactics.
Also the Warden shares most of your complaints. I'm surprised you're placing him in the same boat as a Fighter while excluding the Battlemind from it.
Well that's the issue: It doesn't do anything on a miss.
A paladin can do 10-15 or more damage per violation of the mark even in heroic tier, with no hit roll, every time the target tries to violate the mark. They also don't have to be adjacent to their mark to enforce it.
A fighter, even with a solid defensive focus, can do 15-20 damage at about 80% hit rate every time they try to violate the mark within the same time frame, and significantly more than that if they focus on damage. He can also apply any number of various effects as riders to this enforcement, some of which are extremely potent.
Wardens are in the same scenario as fighters -- 80% hit chance of 15-20 damage every time they try to violate the mark, and significantly more damage if the warden is using a 2-hander and focusing on damage. He can also apply any number of various effects as riders to this enforcement, some of which are extremely potent.
Okay, maybe it's just me, but... how the hell are you getting those damage numbers? I admit I haven't paid too much attention, but to get 15 damage on Divine Challenge, wouldn't you need a total modifier of +12 in Str and Cha with the Might Challenge feat? As far as I know, there is no way to get two stats at 22 by the heroic tier. And you say "or more"?
The same holds true for all the others, I can see getting to the 15-20 range if you focus on damage for a Fighter, but a defensive build?
Hey Crimson, remember when I was all like "I bet they make the Battlemind based on the Diamond Mind school from Tome of Battle" and you were all like "that's a terrible idea" and then I was all like "yeaaah, you're probably right"... heh heh... (sigh)
Well, that's not quite what the conversation went like, but if you're implying that you see very much of Diamond Mind in the Battlemind, I have to say that I disagree. Besides, it was mostly that I didn't think that the flavor behind the Diamond Mind maneuvers was inappropriate for a psionic class, not that the mechanical effects of those maneuvers were necessarily inappropriate.
Why do they NOT get their at will (unaugmented) attacks upgraded to a 2[W] attack in the epic tier!?! This just makes no sense to me. I can't see how they would be able to output enough DPR at the highest levels...very silly.
In terms of the Battlemind's mark damage, I have a scenario to pose...
If you have a solo/elite marked... and he uses his standard action to use an attack that allows multiple attacks on the same target... my interpretation is that the mark would do damage equal to the total damage dealt to said ally.
All they need to do is fix the AoO/shifting timing oversight and the marking situation problem is resolved. It would be nice to make blurred step an AoO which doesn't count towards your total versus a particular target during that part of the turn.... but not really necessary. With a little bit of feat support, their marking system could be quite good and fun to play around with
Oh well, I still like most of the other classes in PHB3, but the Battlemind looks like it was a vague idea that never panned out and was just tossed in because someone said they had to have one of each role for the psionic power source. I'd rather have a second psionic striker, like a kineticist or soulblade. If Martial can lack a controller, surely Psionic can lack a Defender.
Yeah, this class looks pretty boring. The fluff is awful. It basically reads: "Uh, so we decided we had to have a psionic defender, because we're obsessed with filling in the grid of roles per power source. Except Martial Controller for some reason. So, this guy is like, a defender, but psionic. Also, you're an egotistical douche." I'm glad there's finally a Con-primary class, but the fluff doesn't explain at all why he uses Con; the fluff implies that he's using his mind to do everything. And all of the powers seem pretty generic and not particulary psionic. Plus, the name is kind of stupid.
Oh well, I still like most of the other classes in PHB3, but the Battlemind looks like it was a vague idea that never panned out and was just tossed in because someone said they had to have one of each role for the psionic power source. I'd rather have a second psionic striker, like a kineticist or soulblade. If Martial can lack a controller, surely Psionic can lack a Defender.
+1
I'd rather have had an actual psionic striker.
Looking at their powers the quick battlemind does seem to get so ability to enforce his mark, a utility power allowing teleports to the side of a marked enemy. Giving up a standard action to make sure your adjacent to an enemy about to attack an ally, with aan augment you keep the action and become the target yourself. Add to their abbility to immobolize and daze(limiting actions) they can make the shift and charge tactic moot at times. I fully admit however to grasping at straws since I so want to like this class, and want to make it work mechnically
- Let's assume there will be an exception or errata that will allow Battleminds to shift using Blurred Step after the enemy does. This is obviously what was intended. If this is solved then the problem with diagonal shifting will be solved.
- Shift+Charge doesn't occur in a vacuum. Sure if you create a diagram like this one (where X = Open Space, O = Opponent and B = Battlemind) it appears the Battlemind is useless: Battlemind Theory in a VacuumXXX
XXX
XOX
XBX (Battlemind and Opponent are adjacent)
XXX
OXX
XXX
XBX (Opponent shifts diagonally with the intent to shift+charge)
XXX
OXX
XBX
XXX (Battlemind uses Blurred Step, Uses Opportunity Action)
XXX
XBX
XXX (Opponent charges, Battlemind can't attack)
It has more fluff then the fighter has.
I don't think the fighter needs much fluff. The class name says it all. It's the archetypal warrior that excels with a wide array of weapons and armor. There's only so much fluff you can attach to that.
The battlemind just goes, your a merc/adventurer who is sometimes arrogant..which apparently has to do with speed and constituion and heavy armour?
Yeah, this class looks pretty boring. The fluff is awful. It basically reads: "Uh, so we decided we had to have a psionic defender, because we're obsessed with filling in the grid of roles per power source. Except Martial Controller for some reason. So, this guy is like, a defender, but psionic. Also, you're an egotistical douche." I'm glad there's finally a Con-primary class, but the fluff doesn't explain at all why he uses Con; the fluff implies that he's using his mind to do everything. And all of the powers seem pretty generic and not particulary psionic. Plus, the name is kind of stupid.
Oh well, I still like most of the other classes in PHB3, but the Battlemind looks like it was a vague idea that never panned out and was just tossed in because someone said they had to have one of each role for the psionic power source. I'd rather have a second psionic striker, like a kineticist or soulblade. If Martial can lack a controller, surely Psionic can lack a Defender.
+1
+2
Yeah, this class looks pretty boring. The fluff is awful. It basically reads: "Uh, so we decided we had to have a psionic defender, because we're obsessed with filling in the grid of roles per power source. Except Martial Controller for some reason. So, this guy is like, a defender, but psionic. Also, you're an egotistical douche." I'm glad there's finally a Con-primary class, but the fluff doesn't explain at all why he uses Con; the fluff implies that he's using his mind to do everything. And all of the powers seem pretty generic and not particulary psionic. Plus, the name is kind of stupid.
Oh well, I still like most of the other classes in PHB3, but the Battlemind looks like it was a vague idea that never panned out and was just tossed in because someone said they had to have one of each role for the psionic power source. I'd rather have a second psionic striker, like a kineticist or soulblade. If Martial can lack a controller, surely Psionic can lack a Defender.
+1
+2
+3
Although I'd rather have the Wilder as second controller than a kineticist or soulblade.
Yeah, this class looks pretty boring. The fluff is awful. It basically reads: "Uh, so we decided we had to have a psionic defender, because we're obsessed with filling in the grid of roles per power source. Except Martial Controller for some reason. So, this guy is like, a defender, but psionic. Also, you're an egotistical douche." I'm glad there's finally a Con-primary class, but the fluff doesn't explain at all why he uses Con; the fluff implies that he's using his mind to do everything. And all of the powers seem pretty generic and not particulary psionic. Plus, the name is kind of stupid.
Oh well, I still like most of the other classes in PHB3, but the Battlemind looks like it was a vague idea that never panned out and was just tossed in because someone said they had to have one of each role for the psionic power source. I'd rather have a second psionic striker, like a kineticist or soulblade. If Martial can lack a controller, surely Psionic can lack a Defender.
+1
+2
+3
+4
About archetypes and class fluff, what the class is missing in general fluff (arrogant merc/warrior of the mind), it's powers REALLY reach out and scream PLAY ME.
The Quick Battlemind build really plays into nightmare effects. I can think of at least two pop culture icons that fit this build amazingly: Ban Midou of GetBackers and the Pharoah from Yu-Gi-Oh!
It feels like a Cunning Bard made into a weapon-user and turned into a defender rather than a leader (Illusionist/Enchanter Wizard also plays into this as well).
If my Half-Elf Cunning Bard didn't hate weapons, this would be his build of choice. A character who turns your worst fears against you, instilling you with nightmares and crushing your mind in the sort of way Asuka Langley got in episode 22 of Evangelion. You know, forced to relive her childhood memories she sealed away, shattering her. Cunning Bard does some of this, but Quick Battlemind really gets into this. I like it.
The Resilient Battlemind build also has a LOT of traction. I have a feeling people will be comparing it to the Polymorphing of the Warden, transforming the users body into various substances or giving special powers. But the way they do it is very different.
While these two builds feel very different, remember that two fighters, two rogues, two rangers, two clerics might all feel extremely different as well. There are aspects that unite the two, and I want to see how they play these unity factors up, but they don't HAVE to be tied closely nit together. Classes are supposed to be vague to an extent.
I had this to say in another thread: both ardent and battlemind have something unique to me. The ardent is an empath that uses battle as a focus to inspire allies and terroize foes, and then can also rip reality with it's mind from level one(wormhole plunge). The quick battlemind (why it's quick i don't know), is a master of mixing mind games with martial prowess. We don't know much of the other build of the Battlemind, but it is supposed to include body changing powers, as long as this isn't a rehash of guardian forms I think there is a wealth of fluff for a character who has that type of control over their body
I'm back marandahir on this. The arrogance of the battle mind comes from knowing they have the opponents great weakness in their back pocket. They know they have the upper hand before anyone draws a weapon. They not only have the martial training, they can make you relive your worst nightmares while they are slashing away. They get to push your buttons and throw you off your game, and then they get to laugh at you.
I had this to say in another thread: both ardent and battlemind have something unique to me. The ardent is an empath that uses battle as a focus to inspire allies and terroize foes, and then can also rip reality with it's mind from level one(wormhole plunge). The quick battlemind (why it's quick i don't know), is a master of mixing mind games with martial prowess. We don't know much of the other build of the Battlemind, but it is supposed to include body changing powers, as long as this isn't a rehash of guardian forms I think there is a wealth of fluff for a character who has that type of control over their body
That's a good way of putting it. I hadn't thought of how arrogance would come from this, but you put it well. Of course you'd probably be arrogant if your power allowed you to have your cake and eat it too.
I think I'm mostly dissapointed that we have so many weapon classes. Of them all (by role), we have...
Controller
Druid
Invoker
Psion
Seeker (I'm not familiar - is this correct?)
Wizard
Druid
Invoker
Psion
Seeker (I'm not familiar - is this correct?)
Wizard
I don't think it's a "martial" feeling that bothers me from those two classes (and, to a lesser degree, the Warden), nor that they're "Psionic X" (though they really feel that way thus far - I can't really pass any judgment on that until I see the actual preview Battlemind and the full write-up of both though).
I think I'm mostly dissapointed that we have so many weapon classes. Of them all (by role), we have...Controller
Druid
Invoker
Psion
Seeker (I'm not familiar - is this correct?)
Wizard
/snip
A-fing-men.
The Melee Leader has been done to death. The Defender is still just a fighter clone. Strikers are getting better, and Controller is alright (don't forget, the Druid can be a melee controller, which kind of counts).
But Leaders and Defenders aren't getting anywhere. For a while, things looked up; Artificers and Bards could use implements, could wield ranged weaponry, or could get down and dirty with melee. The Shaman brought about a new mechanic, and with it, a new way to Lead.
Then PHB3 comes along, and we're back at square one with two melee-only leaders who are altered clones of the Warlord and the Strength cleric from the first handbook. History repeats. Defenders, as well, haven't advanced on iota, they are all stuck in Fighter mode.
If they want to make new classes, they should actually be new. And that means new ideas, thematically AND mechanically.
How about a ranged/implement defender who can target a specific location a few squares wide, and disrupt anything within it? How about a summoner who defends by calling up a Gigantic Guardian to tank enemy forces, but is actually physically frail? What about a leader who doesn't make a single attack roll, which is currently unprecedented? What about one who cannot heal at all, but is a master of offensive enhancements?
Strikers are getting better, and Controller is alright (don't forget, the Druid can be a melee controller, which kind of counts).
Well, I don't mind melee (and really, the druid is the only melee controller - I don't mind having one) - thematically, "melee" isn't really the same as "weapon."
I think that's where the WotC design is stuck. I get the impression that the thinking is...
Defender = Melee
Melee = Weapon
Therefore, Defender = Weapon.
Then PHB3 comes along, and we're back at square one with two melee-only leaders who are altered clones of the Warlord and the Strength cleric from the first handbook. History repeats. Defenders, as well, haven't advanced on iota, they are all stuck in Fighter mode.
I don't mind most of the leaders, because they do give that choice. The only one that doesn't is the Warlord (and I guess, now, the Ardent?) - and I think that's fine - it's a martial class, so it's pretty much expected.
EDIT: Also, I think there is enough room for non-weapon defenders, coneptually. As some have suggested, I would have loved to have seen a Tk-based Defender, and really one could have built an arcane defender using the swordmage design, and just had it use a non-weapon implement.
Strikers are getting better, and Controller is alright (don't forget, the Druid can be a melee controller, which kind of counts).
Well, I don't mind melee (and really, the druid is the only melee controller - I don't mind having one) - thematically, "melee" isn't really the same as "weapon."
I think that's where the WotC design is stuck. I get the impression that the thinking is...
Defender = Melee
Melee = Weapon
Therefore, Defender = Weapon.Then PHB3 comes along, and we're back at square one with two melee-only leaders who are altered clones of the Warlord and the Strength cleric from the first handbook. History repeats. Defenders, as well, haven't advanced on iota, they are all stuck in Fighter mode.
I don't mind most of the leaders, because they do give that choice. The only one that doesn't is the Warlord (and I guess, now, the Ardent?) - and I think that's fine - it's a martial class, so it's pretty much expected.
EDIT: Also, I think there is enough room for non-weapon defenders, coneptually. As some have suggested, I would have loved to have seen a Tk-based Defender, and really one could have built an arcane defender using the swordmage design, and just had it use a non-weapon implement.
I want to see another melee controller, and I'm also all for a short range casting defender.I don't want to see a backline defender, but fleshing out the caster paladin (just needs at wills that aren't weapon attacks), and the caster sword mage are what I'd be looking for. Nothing more than 5 squares. While I wanted a tk based defender here, the psychometabolism powers in the next build might be rather interesting.
And by mercy, does the battlemind's arrogance really shine through in its powers. I was pretty impressed by that much especially.
EDIT: Also, I think there is enough room for non-weapon defenders, coneptually. As some have suggested, I would have loved to have seen a Tk-based Defender, and really one could have built an arcane defender using the swordmage design, and just had it use a non-weapon implement.
The Swordmage is an interesting class to point out, here. Essentially, it's not a weapon defender, or even a melee defender. A swordmage can both mark and defend at range (granted, the former only at a range of 2); a shielding swordmage could theoretically use nothing but implement owers and not even own a sword, if not for the warding feature. A hybrid swordmage could absolutely not even own a sword. The only issue is when the defender decides to be a striker or controller by marking and then hiding in the back or otherwise out of reach.
From my understanding, if the BM's opponent shifted away from him as a move action (With the intent to eather charge or attack one of the BM's allies) the IR on Blurred Step would allow the BM to shift before the opponent's Standard action. If the opponent attacked someone he could then use his OA to Mindspike and if the opponent charged the BM could still make an Opportunity Attack. Would this actually work?
In any case, it's clear that the Battlemind is intended to defend against solo encounters or encounters with only a few opponents. I think this class is best for that 5th character suplementary slot in a party. I wonder how well he'd work out if paired up with a Fighter or Paladin?
I just figured switching the Action types would solve some of that "Shift and Charge" issue that people seem to be concerned about.
Considering you only get 1 OA per round how would it be overpowering? All it would do is give him more potential targets for his Mindspike, he'd still only be able to use it against 1 target and he'd still have to be adjacent to them.
I just figured switching the Action types would solve some of that "Shift and Charge" issue that people seem to be concerned about.
Actually, you get one OA for turn, which means that, by your houserule, if you mark multiple enemies, you can deal MS damage on all of them.
However, I do like this, an it may work. Deserves testing.
Considering you only get 1 OA per round how would it be overpowering? All it would do is give him more potential targets for his Mindspike, he'd still only be able to use it against 1 target and he'd still have to be adjacent to them.
I just figured switching the Action types would solve some of that "Shift and Charge" issue that people seem to be concerned about.
Actually, you get one OA for turn, which means that, by your houserule, if you mark multiple enemies, you can deal MS damage on all of them.
However, I do like this, an it may work. Deserves testing.
Ah you are correct, I just checked my PH and you get 1 OA for each creature that triggers one on their turn in any given round...So the possibility of Mindspiking each marked enemy would exist. That could potentially be gamebreaking, however I doubt you'd ever get into a situation where a bunch of guys you marked are all provoking OAs from you in the same round. At least, not the way my group runs games.
In my group, if an enemy is marked it will attack the marking character unless it is given an extremely compelling reason to not (such as being made bloodied, criticaly hit or having a daily power used against it by another character) or, if it's an intelligent creature, there is an overly compelling tactical reason not to (The marked dude's side ais retreating, another character is percieved to be a bigger threat, etc).
If anyone gets a chance to try that out I'd be greatly interested in hearing your thoughts.
The other way around. Blurred Step as an Immediate Reaction and Mindspike as an OA.
If anyone gets a chance to try that out I'd be greatly interested in hearing your thoughts.
Fighter, swordmage, and warden all get them as imidate's, so i don't see why battle mind spike would be different.
I think the strangest part about this thread on a battlemind's usefulness is the complete and utter lack of mention of the battlemind's attack stat. It's Constitution! If you min/max, you have 35 hit points at first level. Which is 4 more hit points than a twinked Strength or Intelligence defender (16 Con for the secondary and 20 primary). Then you take Toughness. And you can still be super fast and running around like a weirdo with psionic speed and such. And then you keep dumping points into it to get more and more hit points. This alone is significant to me. And we pretty much have the Battle Resilience class feature. Iron Fist is good times. Dwarf Battlemind who gets swung at and gains resistance against stuff, then keeps getting resistance every turn. And he's right there in the fray, so he's the one getting hit. I like it. I can't wait for someone in my game to eventually play one.
The Warden has a higher HP progression than the battlemind. The battlemind might, start off ahead of a Strength/Con warden, buti think the Warden's progression will overcome it fast.
I think the strangest part about this thread on a battlemind's usefulness is the complete and utter lack of mention of the battlemind's attack stat. It's Constitution! If you min/max, you have 35 hit points at first level. Which is 4 more hit points than a twinked Strength or Intelligence defender (16 Con for the secondary and 20 primary). Then you take Toughness. And you can still be super fast and running around like a weirdo with psionic speed and such. And then you keep dumping points into it to get more and more hit points. This alone is significant to me. And we pretty much have the Battle Resilience class feature. Iron Fist is good times. Dwarf Battlemind who gets swung at and gains resistance against stuff, then keeps getting resistance every turn. And he's right there in the fray, so he's the one getting hit. I like it. I can't wait for someone in my game to eventually play one.
The Warden has a higher HP progression than the battlemind. The battlemind might, start off ahead of a Strength/Con warden, buti think the Warden's progression will overcome it fast.
1st
Str/Con 17+16 = 33
Str/Wis 17+14 = 31
Con/Wis 15+18 = 33
2nd (Toughness)
Str/Con 33 + 7 +5 = 45
Str/Wis 31 + 7 +5 = 43
Con/Wis 33 + 6 +5 = 44
3rd
Str/Con 45 + 7 = 52
Str/Wis 43 + 7 = 50
Con/Wis 44 + 6 = 50
4th +1 to two
Str/Con 52 + 7 + 1 = 60
Str/Wis 50 + 7 + 0 = 57
Con/Wis 50 + 7 + 1 = 58
5th
Str/Con 60 + 7 = 69
Str/Wis 57 + 7 = 64
Con/Wis 58 + 6 = 64
6th
Str/Con 69 + 7 = 76
Str/Wis 64 + 7 = 71
Con/Wis 64 + 6 = 70
7th
Str/Con 76 + 7 = 83
Str/Wis 71 + 7 = 78
Con/Wis 70 + 6 = 76
8th +1 to two
Str/Con 83 + 7 + 1 = 91
Str/Wis 78 + 7 + 0 = 85
Con/Wis 76 + 6 + 1 = 83
As you can see, even the Str/Wis build eventually overtakes the Battlemind. However, I assume that the Battlemind will end up with more Healing Surges, due to a high Con mod and a +9 to each of the classes.